Travis Decker Spotted in Idaho, Operation Dragon Eye, and DOJ Shuts Down Epstein Claims: 'There Is No Client List'

Operation Dragon Eye was led by an impressive 20 agencies on a mission to rescue 60 “critically missing” Florida children. There is a disturbing possible link between infamous incel and mass murderer Elliot Rodger and Idaho student killer Bryan Kohberger. A listener call-in sparks Epstein “client list” conversations — where is this “list?” Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Oh get ready,
we're talking true crime all the time. It's Monday, July seventh,
and guess what, we have a stacked night of headlines,
so listen.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Apparently there is no Epstein list. It's official.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
They're saying there has been no list whatsoever and nothing
to see here. Much more on that to come, and
also some big developments in the Brian Coburger case Idaho
college murders. Lots of people are saying, there's this conversation
about in cells, which we were talking, of course about
last night. We're going to continue that conversation. Body, I
know you're all over that. And also Caitlin Harp, that's

(00:55):
the case that we're going to be digging into very deeply.
So we're going to start unpacking more about that now.
Stephanie Leidecker and I head of KAT Studios, where we
make true crime podcasts and documentaries. We hope you'll check
them out, Like the Idaho massacre on iHeart, the piked
In Massacre also on iHeart, Murder one on one, Hey
guess what? Also on iHeart, And also our documentary currently

(01:15):
streaming on Peacock called The Idaho Student Murders, which is
centered around, obviously the new developments in the Idaho college
murders and I get to do that every night with
the Body move In and Courtney Armstrong and look, where
should we begin? This Epstein thing is pretty incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Do we agree? Do we disagree? Any thoughts, ladies?

Speaker 4 (01:36):
I think it's outrageous and unlikely, is what I think.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Listen, if there's no client list, who was he trafficking
all these kids to? Where'd they go if there's nobody,
If there's nobody, that he's trafficking these children too that
he's been accused of. And you know Glene Maxwell too
of course she's you know, serving time. Where were were
these kids being sent to?

Speaker 4 (01:56):
So yeah, the brand new news is the Justice Department.
In their review, they find that Jeffrey Ebstein, he did
as you said, had no client list, and one hundred
percent died by suicide. So that is their review. And
this comes after an FBI review of the investigation. This
all relates to the totally disgraced late financier Jeffrey Ebstein,

(02:17):
who was alleged to have had a sex trafficking ring
with incredibly high profile people Prince Andrew, Bill Clinton, et cetera.
Here's my favorite thing that came out today though, Elon Musk,
who for better, for worse or indifferent. Elon Musk is
now fighting with President Trump and he posted on x

(02:37):
and he was knock in the administration for making no
arrests related to the Epstein case. He posted an image
of a clock, like an old school digital alarm clock.
It had all zeros and it said the official Jeffrey
Epstein pedophile arrest counter. What time is it? Oh look,
it's no one's been arrested a clock again.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Oh wow?

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Politics aside, right, yeah, let's put it all politics society.
It is fascinating that we were told though, by Pam Bondy,
that this list was on her desk.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Stephanie, I'm looking at a headline from Fox News and
it says Bondi says, the Epstein client list is quote
sitting on my desk right now and is being reviewed
along with JFK and MLK files. So if there's a
client list sitting on Bondie's desk. Where's the client list? Wow?
Does it not exist? I'm literally being gas lit, real time,

(03:27):
real time.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
And I believe, you know, President Trump has come out
to say that, you know, Elon Musk is a train wreck. Again,
this is not This is a not I think we
can all agree that this is just interesting.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Right.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
So we're not putting any we're not throwing any shade
at any side of this equation, not a Republican or
a Democrat or anyone in between. But this list has been,
you know, highly coveted for a very long time. Names
had been released, you know, previously, and those had been redacted,
those lists, So the flyers, the unreducted list, yet the

(03:59):
flight logs, all of the above, and you know, I
just do think it's interesting, and I don't know what
that means. We'd love to hear from you too, By
the way, join the conversation eight eight eight three one crime.
What do you make of this because obviously we don't
have the answers. It seems like we won't get the answers.
And I'm just curious, why do you think it's You

(04:22):
guys think it's like, uh, you know, somebody's protecting people
on this list, or is it?

Speaker 3 (04:27):
I mean, what do you think. I think people think
they're they're protecting or maybe or maybe they're scared to
release it. Like you know, we when we were having
the show talk earlier, we were talking about maybe we
shouldn't talk about this because maybe, you know, we will
end up in trouble, you know, but we're gonna get killed.
We're gonna get killed. Maybe somebody in the higher up
is worried about their own safety. I don't know I exactly.
I just feel like we're being gaslet I there's.

Speaker 4 (04:48):
A lot of names, a lot of pictures, and I
think it is gaslighting is a perfect word. It's like, listen,
do not believe you're lying eyes And it seems like
the FBI has tried to put a real bow on
it again to see here there is no list. Jeffrey
Epstein totally died by his own hand, and they released
video footage where they said and it's available to the public,

(05:09):
and they said, look Epstein, he was locked in his cell,
nobody entered it, and.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
They released an eleven hour video. Did you guys see this? Yeah,
So for those who don't know. They released an eleven
hour video of the outside of what they said is
Jeffrey Epstein's cell, and they say that it's from the
timeframe in which he committed suicide. And of course in
this eleven hour video, we don't see anybody entering the cell,

(05:34):
but I mean you can't see inside the cell to
even see if it's him or not. I mean, that
could be anything and anyway time exactly.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
And also, you know, we've talked about this to nauseum,
you know, outside of this show on previous projects with
our forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, who's really looked at
the forensics of this said suicide and it seems pretty unlikely,
and we should actually have him on to sort of
explain it, because I feel like I'll muffle it up
a little bit. But there's really good indications that this

(06:03):
was not suicide. And also a former inmate from that
same facility, who also had been in that cell when
Epstein was there, very clearly has said publicly there's zero
chance that anybody could commit suicide in that cell. And
I guess that's the larger fearful question. Why, what's the
what's the cover here, and you know, let's assume that again,

(06:24):
taking any administration out of it, Let's assume Trump really
wants to release this and wants to do the right
thing by it. You know, why the why the sudden change,
And I have to assume it's because, you know, maybe
it's for our own safety.

Speaker 4 (06:37):
I don't know, But how can we release something that
doesn't exist? As they're saying this, you know, alleged list,
they just said, it simply doesn't exist. Now even though
was on her desk, correct, it doesn't exist. Wow, it's
literally like they're literally gaslighting us a real time.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
That's actually very true. And you bring up Galeen Maxwell.
So if you haven't been close to the Epstein case,
Geleen Maxwell was kind of his like right hand woman.
We've referenced those, you know, parallels between this case and
maybe the Diddy case. Right, and listen, there is some
obvious crossover power fame video. That's a big one. Right,
So you know, in theory, young girls were giving massages

(07:17):
to very high profile in very high profile, not hip hop,
high profile in the Epstein world.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
It was like world leaders, right.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Maybe being brought drawn to his island and suddenly there's videotape.
Obviously we haven't seen that videotape, but there was that
documentary that I thought was, you know, really well done
called Filthy Rich, and you know, the main subject of
Virginia Gouffrey, who was like the main victim, you know,
she you know, sadly took her life back in April
of twenty twenty five. I can't help but wonder if

(07:46):
there's a connection to all of this that maybe we're
just not able to piece together because we don't have
all the information.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
I think you're right.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
I don't know. I think it's a big world and
there are many possibilities. Is it possible in the scope
of the universe? Of course? Also in my mind likely
she was a troubled woman. She had a hard life.
She was abused if you believe her allegations, which there's
no reason not to, and that can also drive a
person to hurt themselves.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Wasn't it so weird?

Speaker 4 (08:13):
Though?

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Remember she was in the bus accidents or yeah, that
was that could have that could have made things worse
for her mentally though.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
You know, recovery is hard, Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Recovery is hard. This is true crime tonight, we're on iHeartRadio.
I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker.
Right now, we're talking Ebstein. Later we're talking in cells,
Brian Cooberger and lots of other things in the news.
Please join us. We're at eighty eight three one crime.
We want to hear your thoughts or give us a
talk pack on the iHeartRadio app. When you're on that app,

(08:43):
you just click on the red microphone in the upper
right hand corner, leave a message, and you're on the show.
So I don't know this will this will continue? What
do you guys think will be the end result? Does
it end here today? I don't think anybody's buying it.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
So no, I guess whether we want this to be
the end of the road or otherwise. It just seems
a little you know, sus.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
But I was on Go Ahead, I was on X today,
and you know, I think this is one of the
things that all Americans can agree on. Whether you're the
right side of the aisle or the left side of
the aisle, Everyone on both sides of the aisle are like,
what maybe this is something that brings America together, the truth?
You know what I mean? Ah, men. Wouldn't it be great?

(09:24):
It would? It would? I have an update on Travis Decker. Ooh,
so Travis Decker. He's the man that's been accused of
killing his three beautiful young daughters in Washington State earlier
last month, on June second, Decker he remains at large,
more than a month after his daughter's Peyton nine years old,
Evelyn eight years old, and Olivia five years old. Beautiful

(09:47):
little girls were found dead near Red Rock Island campground,
remember on June second. Well, he's been basically they've been
tracking him for the past month and a half. And
we got word last week I think it was you
guys that they believe he might be dead, right right,
and that they were bringing in cadaver dogs to start
looking for him. He's been on the run since he

(10:09):
is a former you know, military guy. He has survival training.
You know, he has some potential mental issues, you know,
things that were really kind of playing games with his mind.
And well, he's been spotted in Idaho by campers. And
I watched a news report earlier today with US Marshall

(10:30):
Michael Lee, and he said that the family that spotted
Travis Decker described him very well in even his tattoos.
And they said, prior to seeing him in the real person,
they had never seen the picture of his tattoos, which
is interesting because you know, normally, you know, you can
look at a picture of Travis Decker and describe his tattoos.

(10:50):
But they're saying they never saw those photos. Wow. So
but they were able to describe his tattoos, which is
one of the reasons the US Marshal Service is taking
it so seriously.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Wow, I wouldn't know his tattoos off the top of
my head.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yeah. So that's pretty telling that it's a reliable eyewitness. Yeah,
it is. It's very telling. So I thought that was
really interesting. And you know, now they're looking in the
area of this campground in Idaho, So if you're in
Idaho in the saw Tooth National Forest area, the Bear
Creek area specifically, keep an eye out, you know, the

(11:25):
US Marshall Service are you know, looking for him. So
that was really interesting. They described him as a white
male anywhere from five to eight five feet eight inches tall,
wearing a black mesh cap, black gauged earrings, which Travistecker has,
which is a detail that's interesting, cream colored t shirt,
black shorts, low top sneakers, and a black garment style watch.

(11:47):
He also had a long ponytail, which Travis Decker did,
and an overgrown beard and mustache, and was carrying a
black JanSport backpack.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
He would be very dangerous at this point, you know again,
I mean he's been off his medication, he's been in
half medication, and he just you know, maybe murdered his children.
That has to sink in at some point. And you've
been living in the wilderness this entire time. Somebody must
be aiding and abetting him. I would think, how would
you know that many weeks in the wall and he's.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Apparently been injured too, with this blood in the truck
that matched his DNA so they found they found blood
like handprints. I think that's right on the back of
this truck that is his blood, which is crazy. So
you know, just when we learned last week that they
thought he might be dead, I was like, well, he's
got to be injured. But he also.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
Has military training of survivalists, so that will go a
really long way in surviving in the wilderness, right, So
I don't know, but yeah, stay on the lookout. Definitely dangerous.
Listen coming up Caitlyn Harp's tragic death, her husband's interarreested.
A New Mexico woman is missing after she brought lunch
to her child. We're gonna hear what her family is saying.

(12:53):
Do not forget to give us a call eight at
eight to three one Crime. We want to hear your thoughts.
And actually, when we come back, we have a caller
on the line regarding Epstein. Keep it here True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. And Look News would say
that there is no Epstein list. Apparently I don't know.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Do we buy it?

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Please call us eight eight eight three one crime, And
in fact, the phones are off the hook. Renee, thank
you for joining us and for calling. What's your question?

Speaker 5 (13:32):
Hey, Well, I absolutely love your show at night. I
just found you guys. I'm not even gonna lie. I
absolutely love you too. I'm never usually out late.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
So what about me? Everybody? This is body. I feel
a little left out, Renee, I'm feeling a little left out.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay, sorry, it's nice.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
We're just tell us, yeah, give us the scoop on
all things. Oh my god, I have.

Speaker 5 (14:07):
Yeah, you know, I've been really jumping down the rabbit
hole for the last quite a few years and just
doing a lot of my own research, and you know,
I'm I try to stay away from the propaganda and
the news and just you know, and really kind of
just dig into my own research. But I mean, I mean,
we got to be clear. Now, we were told there was.

Speaker 6 (14:25):
A list, right right.

Speaker 5 (14:27):
Be a newly appointed president promised to release this list.
I believe he said day one. Right now he's being
accused of being on the list, and now the list
suddenly doesn't exist.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Correct.

Speaker 5 (14:41):
Correct for me, I believe that the Epstein client list
does exist. We will never have it. They'll never release
it because frankly, and you know, I'm just one of
those people that speak it like it is. You know,
too many elite people right now would go down and plays.
And that's the reality.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
I think you're spot on.

Speaker 6 (15:01):
Now.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
Even our own president is scared to release it, even
though it was one of his campaign promises. So now
he's leaving people in the dark. But I'm sorry, we
the people like, we're not dull, we're not goible.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
I here's my wonder, what do you think about this
working theory of mine? Is it possible that Jeffrey Epstein
was a double agent working for many sides and was
luring world leaders to this said island to put them
in compromising positions and then have video of it and
then say, oop, sorry, you can't really do what you

(15:36):
want to because I will hold this over your head.
Not maybe so dissimilar to what we were seeing in
the I mean, I'm not making a direct connection to Diddy,
but just the idea that there's tape that could be
used as revenge for power?

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Why else would they not release this at this point?

Speaker 4 (15:51):
I know?

Speaker 3 (15:52):
But do you really think they would put children at
risk to get this double agent story? Like there's there's
still real children? Right? Well, well, here's something that absolutely
that's a fair point.

Speaker 4 (16:02):
I can't figure out, thank you, thank you listening. But
the FBI and the Justice Department said in a memo
that the review confirmed Epstein harmed more than a thousand victims,
many of them under age, and each of whom suffered
quote unique trauma. Okay, if their investigation found these victims,
to your earlier point, body, where are the perpetrators of

(16:25):
the crimes?

Speaker 3 (16:26):
Right?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
And then why is maxwechildren, Yeah, why is Gilaine Maxwell?
And this is not my opinion, I just observationally speaking,
and Renee, I'm with you one hundred percent. Is it
possible that Gilayne Maxwell Epstein's number, you know, number two
right hand woman. She's serving time and some said location
under the you know, dead of night for forever or

(16:50):
many many years. Then why was she arrested and brought
up on charges in serving time. I'm not trying saying
to release Gilain Maxwell. I'm just saying I find it
curious that. But you know, the main victim has taken
her life for related reasons or otherwise. But we certainly
can't ask her now because that just happened in April.
You know, May she rest in peace. It was not
an easy life and takes courage to come out as

(17:12):
a victim, which we're seeing in many cases right now.
And this list has been talked about two nauseum. And
by the way, I think it is worth noting because
the list that had been shared, or some of the
names that had been shared, some of them were like
kind of just they he knew them, Like for example,
there were some like famous actresses on it. It wasn't

(17:32):
they were saying that, oh, these were sex traffickers. It
was that there was a connection or they loosely knew Epstein.
Perhaps right, So just because you're maybe on this said
list doesn't mean that you're a sex trafficker, or doesn't
mean that you did terrible, violent things.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
This is called the client list, though I guess, so,
I guess these are people if they're on this list,
they were somehow clients of Epstein in order to partake
in these crimes against these you know, underaged people kids.
And if you're a client, you're not a guest. Right.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
The other side to that is, oh, come to my
island as a guest, and.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
That's one thing.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
These weird things happen, and I don't know add water, instant, terrible.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
You know this, but you're right, the client client I
should know this.

Speaker 4 (18:19):
But how did Jeffrey Epstein become so wealthy?

Speaker 2 (18:23):
I can tell you. Okay, don't get me started. Okay,
So Jeffrey Jephanie's favorite subject.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Here we go subject.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
So I'm you know, listen, I'm blinking twice right now
and holding up a sign. If something terrible happens to
me overnight, it wasn't me there there it's been alleged
that there was this very wealthy man who he ran
like the abercrom not Abercrombie, but I do want to
get to that sidebar the limited and victorious secret. His

(18:50):
last name is Wexler, and he was, you know, extremely
wealthy and allegedly was the person who was funding Epstein.
In fact, at some point Epstein was as a teacher
at a very high profile school in New York City.
That would be a very hard job to get, but
he didn't even have the credentials to get that job,
and allegedly had been funded by these very expensive billionaires. Remember,

(19:13):
he lived the high life, the fanciist, you know, the
fanciist little Brownstone and all things.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
New York City.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
And he owned an island and he you know, Courtney,
You and I did this documentary about trafficking called Murdered
and Missing in Montana, which really looked at Native American reservations,
and I was pretty convinced, although we never really proved
it enough for it to air on the Dock, I
was kind of convinced that Epstein's ranch, which at the
time was in New Mexico, this is pre the island

(19:43):
that we all know about that that was sort of
ground zero for some trafficking and that might have been
involved with some of the reservations that we were looking into.
I'm still not just I'm still not convinced that that's
not accurate.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
Yeah, that absolutely was your theory dating back years. Now.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, this is true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio where we
talk true crime all the time, and we're right in
the middle of some Epstein talk about this client list
that does not exist or does exist, won't be released,
will be released? Give us a call, eighty eight thirty
one crime. What do you think about this? This is
pretty significant news. This is you know, we've been hearing
for years and years and years this Epstein lists the

(20:18):
flight logs and to our colorinase point, President Trump said
that day one this was going to be released, and
now we're being told it doesn't even exist.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
And maybe it's possible either that. Yes, obviously there's photographs
and stuff of nobody wants to say any photographs, right,
there's photographs of you know, Trump and Epstein.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
But Epstein was.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Buds with everybody, right, that was a stick. He was
like the most charismatic man in town. You know, he
was good looking, he was affluent. He liked to party.
Shall he liked to party, allegedly liked young women and massages.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
I was gonna say loved a massage.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
He just really loved a massage. I love a massage.
I mean I do you did not this kind and
don't go to the island.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
No.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Imagine you're a young girl and you're said to meet
somebody in this Epstein world and they're like, hey, you
can catch a little extra cash. Come to this island
to give massuses to you know, Epstein and some of
his bug Do you do that when you're underage? I mean,
is that what happens? I realized passport away and suddenly
you're no.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
But I'm seventeen. How do I get to an island?
I'm sixteen? How do I get to this island? How
do I leave my parents? How do I get permission?
Because you're beautiful?

Speaker 4 (21:23):
And you meet Gulaane Maxwell and she's like, hey, I
have an opportunity for a pretty girl like you.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
And my parents just go okay.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Some of them don't have great parents, or they do,
and they're just like, you know, a little bit more
of a wild card. You know, there's many things that
I you know said would do at a certain time.
You know that looking back, I'm like, huh, I could
have died that day, you know, and just like life
didn't work out that way because you want decision that
one bad decision away from destruction, right right.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
And young people, you know, so these are like third
so the victims are Listen. I don't know a lot
about the Epstein stuff I had. You know, it's kind
of one of those things where I was like, oh,
you know, I just it's too much like kids and
just too much for me. You know, I have a line, right,
even I have a line, and you know, so I
don't really know much about like the victims. I assumed

(22:13):
they were young children, but what you're saying is that
these were, you know, girls that were experienced enough to
be like messuses of some kind. So I'm thinking, you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
is that about right?

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Even a little older, even like post high school, you know,
maybe early college. That like twinkle time of life where
you're in between worlds and like, you know, kind of
the perfect target if you're a little off track in
your world and you're beautiful and you want to you know,
be in the right circle. You know, you can kind
of see how that happens. A plane, private plane to

(22:47):
some island, they take her passport and now my door
is locked behind you. And and I think this is
where the Diddy connection comes from. Is how is grooming happening?
Is that too strong of a word. I don't know
the answer to this, but I do think it's worth
looking into. We should have someone from that documentary, We'll
look into this. Maybe they can come on and give

(23:07):
us some behind the scenes to it, because it was
a big machine, allegedly, and we've been told this and
have been following this for years and years and years
to have it just be a non starter, or maybe
our president really wanted to release the list. And it's
called Filthy Rich on Netflix, okay, and it has a
lot of the victims that are very you know, forward
facing and you know, came forward and Gelane Maxwell really

(23:32):
was brought into charges. The Gelaine Maxwell part is particularly
odd because listen, as a woman, as a young girl,
you see another woman it's on some you know, skivy
man coming onto you as a you know, girl to girl,
you feel a little safer because, oh, a woman wouldn't
do that to me.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
A woman wouldn't pull me into that circle.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
And that's the connection to Diddy and his head chief
of staff allegedly, allegedly allegedly, now we know that's completely unproved.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
We'll never really know.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
And body, to answer your earlier question, it was a
lot of sort of pyramid style recruitment that Epstein and
his associates used, so young women would then recruit other
young women under the guise of hey, such easy money.
And listen, this was people were approached at schools and
malls and parks, so.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
They were like recruiting from these actively places and you're
looking for the girl who maybe is in a fight
with mom and dad, dropped out of school, or doesn't
have resources as they're working at a junkie job.

Speaker 5 (24:31):
Right.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well, coming up, we are going to go over some
pretty strange parallels between infamous in cel Elliott Rodger and
the Idaho student murderer Brian Coberger. Could it be coincidence
or potential evidence of a deeper link. Stay right here, True.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight an iHeart Radio. We're
talking true crime all the time. We've been talking Epstein,
so if you want to join the conversation, please do
eight e eight three one crime.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
We want to hear from you. We want your opinions.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Let them be different than ours or right on track
with ours.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
I'm personally going to try not to get killed.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
We're relocating as we speak, but I definitely want to
talk more about it, and we'll be digging into this
more throughout the week. But first, we also want to
talk about the Kaitlyn Harp case. And this is one
that's close to the heart here. Body's been following it
very closely. And also these you know, kind of new
distinctive similarities potentially between Brian Coburger, who's now pled guilty

(25:38):
to murdering the four Idaho college murders and this thing
called in cells i nc e LS and that's becoming
our new internal buzzword. And listen, it's a scary thing
and important for us to unpack. So we'll do more
on that later. So Caitlin Harp, let's start there.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, So this is kind of you know, this is
kind of a story of a determined sibling. Really, that's
kind of what it boils down to. So Caitlyn Harp,
she is a woman who went missing and her determined sibling,
Heather Lane was basically solved the mystery of her sister's

(26:16):
murder after a nine day search. Her brother in law,
Caitlyn's husband, is now in jail. So Caitlyn Harp's remains
were located by her sister, Heather Lane, as she searched
a really densely forested forty acre property once owned by
her brother in law, Vincent. Vincent Harp faces multiple serious charges,

(26:37):
including homicide, for the murder of his wife Caitlyn. So
she was reported missing on June twentieth by her sister, Heather,
who said she missed their daily phone call. These sisters
are incredibly close. So Caitlyn she was reported missing by
her sister, and her Life three sixty had not updated
from the previous day, so her sister, of course is
checking her location. It's not updating. It's scary rewarded her

(27:00):
sister missing. Her husband, Vincent Hart, sold a utility vehicle
four days after his wife's death. I mean that's kind
of alarming, right, that tested positive for blood and troopers
found footage of him driving with a large green box.
Remember I was talking, Yeah, and a couple of shows
ago about like a tool kind of box that was
like a green kind of box. Well, the sister searched

(27:23):
this old property and found this box, called the police.
The police came, they unlocked the box and inside this
box was unfortunately, her sister, Caitlin Harp, and they identified her.
Apparently she was in an advanced state of decomp which
is horrifying, and they identified her through the She has
like an eleven eleven tattoo on hers my favorite hambers.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, yes, eleven eleven Angel members, right have that income
We had that yeah on her som hmmm.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
So that's how they identified her. You know, it's just
it's it's so sad, but it's also like inspirational in
a sense of like don't give up, you know, like
don't if you think something's wrong, listen to your gut
something's wrong. This sister did not give up. She kept looking.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
And it's remarkable you both have sisters. I only have brothers,
and I only have a brother.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
I listen for some reason, Why am I saying that?

Speaker 5 (28:14):
So?

Speaker 3 (28:15):
But think about it, you're my sisters. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
But like as somebody who's raised by boys too, like, yeah,
you got to fight a little bit harder.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
You know.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Police have a lot on their plate on a daily
basis to cover crimes and keep us safe in the now.
Sometimes if something's not feeling right, you know, leave it
to a family member. We see this time and time
and time again that it's that family member who goes
the extra distance.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
I have to.

Speaker 4 (28:38):
Say, this sticks out to me that the Life three
sixty also was part of you know, raising her alarms
and that, if I'm remembering correctly, was Shade Robinson, the
poor girl who died. That was a way that she
was Yeah, found her and her case was solved. So

(29:00):
you know, we are not sponsored by Life three sixty,
but it sounds like it's common in handy in some capacities.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, I use it. You know, truth be told. You know,
we all sort of need to kind of keep our
circles tight. I feel pretty confident that if I went missing,
you guys would find me.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
Oh absolutely, I wouldn't give up. Yeah, So he's he
doesn't have a lawyer at this time. He's currently in jail.
He doesn't have a lawyer, but he's due back in
court in like seven days July fourteenth, so he'll probably
be arraigned and all that and indicted and blah blah.
They're probably a preliminary hearing coming up and we'll get
some answers. And this happened in Pennsylvania, so it's not

(29:35):
sad to.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
Say, not for nothing, but how in the universe do
you take a car also that you have not cleaned
and sell it to someone four days after you know,
and this is alleged. We don't know if he indeed
murdered her, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Do you allegedly allegedly capital exclamation point. But you know
how hard it is to sell a car. Have you
guys ever tried selling Well, it was it was all like.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
A utility via like a Forerunner type, that's true, like
an ATV.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, you got to post it, you gotta make you know, arrangements,
You gotta make yourself a veil four days after your
you know, beloved is ough. That to me is just
absurd and takes a lot of work and effort court
And we saw this in the piked and massacre as well,
when that vehicle that there was like a murder vehicle
that the accused, well.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Not so much accused the road.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, like they the victims, the rodents, you know again,
may they rest in peace? You know, the the killers,
you know, bought a vehicle for the spirit of killing
and then sold it. And you think to yourself, who
has the wherewithal to sell a vehicle, let alone do
it after such a tragedy.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
I mean, think of all those things that you would
have to do to cover up a murder, Like you're
cleaning your arranging your and now you have to sell
a vehicle on top of the pack. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
One would assume you're like unregulated emotionally and you're like that.
It takes it's another layer that throwaway to key. If
this ends up being.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
Dru well, there's currently no motive. There's no like, you know,
confirmed motive for Vincent's allegedly killing his wife, Caitlin, but
investigators have noted the couple had an argument shortly before
her disappearance. I think if you remember, she was in
the shower and her husband saw a snapchat message come
up on her phone, and the husband said it was
no big deal. He asked her about it, and it

(31:23):
was like an old high school friend or something. It was.
He made it seem like it wasn't a big deal. However,
many are speculating that in fact was a big deal
and that he killed her for it. But that's all speculation.
We don't have any any confirmed information about that. Very interesting,
it's fir sod too and scary. We're following this one
very closely. Right, So you're listening to True Crime tonight.
I'm body movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and

(31:43):
Corney Armstrong and we're right in the middle of some
cases that we're bringing to you. Stay right here, Courtney,
What do you have for us?

Speaker 4 (31:50):
A little bit of good news if we Yeah, it's
good news and we bring it. Yeah, we started to
talk at the very end of last night's show. But
there is a a Texas rape law where a loophole
has been closed, and so in Texas, the law requires
that for a sexual assault to be prosecuted based on

(32:11):
a victim being incapacitated, which unfortunately is very common, the
offender must have caused the victim's incapacitation or the victim
must be unconscious or physically unable to resist. So what
that fancy legally means is basically, the actual rapist needs
to have physically handed, you know, some kind of you know,

(32:32):
incapacitating drug. So what that meant was that if you
were at a party or in anything, and you had
a sip of a drink of your own volition, or
someone else even gave it to you that a person
who was sexually assaulted, it didn't meet the legal standard
for rape.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
I mean, so I go to a party. Let me
get a straight I go to a party, or I'm
at a bar and I'm drinking and I'm knocked out drunk,
yep in some is like come home with me or whatever,
and I'm like, oh no, I don't want to, and
I somehow end up going and I get assaulted. There's
nothing I can do about it.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
According to the law, there was not, and that loophole
has now been closed. But think of how pervasive that
situation happens.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
And it's only been like that loophole has been closed
in only a few places.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
I was just gonna have many others.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
What other states have this loophole? I have additional states
still have this loop open. Kid take me if I'm wrong,
But it's a pretty ghastly number. I don't have the
exact number in front of me. It is worth finding out,
but it is something in that arena. Stephanie, What if
I'm drinking lemonade and I get roofied. That's my question.
So let's play that horrible scenario out. Have you guys
ever seen promising young women? No, promising young women? Yeah,

(33:51):
that was a I think it was the Academy Award
winning film several years ago. So good, it's cofly worth
a checkout. It's a film. Yeah, it's a movie. Forgetting
the actress's name, but she's so brilliant in it. But
the idea being or even just like we've seen the
Diddy case, We've seen all kinds of things where allegedly
alcohol and drugs were involved. So let's just talk worst

(34:12):
case scenario. You as a very sober young woman, go
to a party, you're offered a cocktail, You take that cocktail,
you're drugged in this cocktail, somehow you're roofed, you somehow
pass out, you're sexually assaulted. Maybe there's even proof that
you're sexually assaulted, but just the fact that you had
alcohol and or drugs in your system, suddenly that doesn't count.

(34:35):
The sexual assault is like unwarranted. Am I understanding that?

Speaker 3 (34:40):
No?

Speaker 4 (34:41):
That is as absurd as that sounds. That's absolutely correct,
which boggles my mind, because.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
You doesn't matter what the assailant has done, like if
they've been drinking, nobody cares. Have we not been paying
attention all week? Nobody cares? And nobody cares. It's nice.

Speaker 5 (34:57):
I heard.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
It's crazy. How naive I am totally forgot this because
I'm like, oh there, oh my god.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Yes, But so here we are and let's try and
find that answer of how many states still have this
loophole open? But again it has been closed.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
In Texas.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
It is called both Summer Willis Act, and she is
a rape survivor for many years and she has made
great strides to help this law come to be. So
here is to you.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Here's to you. Yeah, congratulations, congratulations Texas women. That's wonderful.
You know, from another perspective, what if I am at
a bar and I'm drinking and I meet someone and
they're drinking. We're both drinking, and we end up leaving
together fooling around and I changed my mind. No I'm

(35:44):
not interested, but they're not changing their mind. But that
person is also impaired, right, We're both impaired. Is it
because of that? Is it because like that person the
assailant was wasn't also in their friend of mine? That's
why I asked about what doesn't matter what the assailant
has drinken. Right, we're both impaired. That's an interesting point,
Like that person would never do that normally, but we're

(36:06):
both impaired, right, Is that ever? Is that like a
consideration with this little pool.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
That's a good point, by the way, it's a very
good perspective, and you know, that's a very good perspective.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
But I do wonder that in the law.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
It's not an excuse, of course, but like that should
be sort of trying to figure out a pox on
both houses. If that's the case, it just seems like
it's so targeted specifically to the victim.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
To the victim, right, Well, that's a fair point. Here.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
Here's how I see it. And this is a real
nuts and bolts way. If I signed a contract and
I'm drunk, that doesn't stand because I was not able
to actually have like full capacity. And then if you extrapolate,
and I do hear your point, body, but extrapolate from there,
I was drunk and I went too far in the
bedroom I normally wouldn't have. I was drunk and I

(36:51):
got in my car and drove over seven children.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
But I wouldn't have.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
I was drunk and I beat someone with a baseil
bat and now they're dead. So no, that's not part
of loophole, and I don't think it should be.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
That was as Didy's defense, right, like, hey, I was
doing a lot of drugs and you know, it.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Doesn't make it innocent of doing those things, right. But
I'm just wondering, like why this loophole even exists, Like
what the heck I'm listen, I'm trying to find out.
Do they hate us or is it just you know,
like they hate us?

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Honestly, I think that again, not the soapbox, but here
I go. I think that cards are stacked against us worlds,
and I think it's okay. That's why we're talking about it.
That's how change happens thanks to summer, you know, like
it's you know again, even if it's unintentionally, we just.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Have to discuss it.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
And by the way the rules are, there are probably
very many that are against men.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
So please show us eight eight three one crime. This
is not just like women rule.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
No, that is not the intention whatsoever. But in this
particular case, it doesn't seem like the odds are in
the favor of a You know, I'm just a little
concerned that just based on where we are today after
the last two weeks of you know, Diddy and trials
and verdicts, that I think it's getting increasingly harder for
victims to come forward. Even Epstein, we were just talking

(38:09):
about a lot of victims came forward, they faced it,
they went to court, they took time off work, they
had to say terrible things, and now there's no client list.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
We're getting gas lit. We get your getting gas. We're
going to continue the convo. If you missed any of
the show, catch it as a podcast. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
This is True Crime Tonight and we're talking true crime
all the time. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.
We're talking true crime all the time. We've been talking

(38:45):
a lot about Epstein. We would definitely want to hear
from you, so please jump in and join the convo
eight eight eight three one crime. You could also hit
us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show,
at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, and
then at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. That's very loud
for my mom, and also you know, just call us,

(39:06):
or you could also do a talk back, which is
if you download the iHeart app on the right hand
corner and the top right, you just press this button
and suddenly you just leave us like a little voice
memo and boom, you're on the show.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
So we definitely want to hear from you. We listen.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
There's a lot to unpack with Brian Coberger and his
potential association or at least the parallel to in cells,
and that's a topic that we're digging into, you know,
from today, tomorrow and probably from this point forward, because
now it's becoming increasingly more prevalent and important that we discuss.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
And you know, body, WHI should we go to? First?

Speaker 2 (39:41):
We definitely want to talk about Manifesto's you know, it's
manifesto Mondays and Elliott Rogers and his sort of connection
to all things in cell. He's kind of the poster child,
if you will, of in cells. So will you share
a little bit more about what an in cell is
and this Elliott Rogers manifesto?

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Yeah, So an in cell you've we obviously we've been
talking about it, but an in cell stands for involuntarily
celibate and the involuntarily is you know important here they
basically blame women for being celibate. There, that they're still virgins,
that they haven't been given the right amount of attention
from women for whatever reason they're social standing, maybe the

(40:21):
way they look, the way they talk, the way they walk,
any any number of reasons women are blamed for them
being celibate. Not all in cells. You know, some are
just very lonely and you know, have a community online
and where they can commiserate with other in cells and
you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not
alone in this world. However, some in cells, as we're seeing,

(40:45):
are becoming violent towards women. And you know, when you're
looking at Brian Coberger, I think it's pretty clear that
you know, while this wasn't a sexual assault, I do
think it was sexually motivated in a way. You know,
I do. There's allegedly, you know, Maddie was his target,
and you know he was very brutal with these victims.
Elliott Roger, he is a spree killer. And you know,

(41:07):
when you're looking at the classifications for killers, there's you know,
serial killers, mass murders and spree killers and Elliott Rogers
a spree killer because he killed many people at multiple locations.
You know, he killed his roommates at their home, and
then he also killed the sorority sisters at the sorority
house outside the sorority house there, and then a couple
of other people that were in the area. So he's

(41:29):
he's considered a spree killer. And then you have Brian Coburger, who,
by all intents and purposes, was a mass murderer because
he killed four or more people in one location. I
one hundred percent believe Brian Coburger would have evolved into
a serial killer. But we you know, luckily we don't know, Like,
thank god, we don't know, but I think that would

(41:50):
have happened. And then like Ted Bundy, Right, like obviously
Brian Coberger, he's in criminology, he you know, is going
to be looking for information on Ted Bundy. However, it
seemed like Brian was a little very interested in Ted Bundy.
He's even looking for Ted Bundy while he's on vacation,
you know, like this was more than just a criminal
criminology student looking at writing a paper. He was certain

(42:13):
Ted Bundy absolutely hated women. So the one thing they
all have in common is their hatred for women, right,
and their resentment towards women, and you know, obviously the
violent acts they committed.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
I was just going to ask you when the Brian
Coburger point, not to interrupt, but just curious what your
perspective is Brian Coberger obviously accused or now has pled
guilty to murdering, you know, for incredible students at the
University of Idaho. Inexcusable, you know, because he maybe was
considered unpopular or you know, had a bad taste in
his mouth when it came to women, wasn't getting a

(42:45):
lot of girlfriends, et cetera. Was kind of the weird
guy in the basement. That's the alleged, right. We don't
know for sure that he's an insel, which I know
a lot's been made about his fascination with Ted Bundy.
He was a criminology studying, you know, student, getting his
chances are if you looked at any of our Google searches,
you know we work in true crime, they're not great.

(43:05):
We're looking at very dark things all day. Does that
mean that we're fascinated by it or it's just a
research piece of the job. I think that I wonder
it was Bundy and Inceell in your opinion, No, Bundy had.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
A girlfriend, Bunny had successful relationships with women. But it's
just it's just the violence against women part, you know
that I'm drawing from that makes some sense. Yeah, not
that I'm not I'm not saying Ted Bundy was an insult.
I'm just saying understood.

Speaker 4 (43:29):
Yeah, because also a body, weren't you mentioning? I believe
it was last night that Brian Coburger had a car
ride with someone. Yeah, and in that Yeah, while you're
pulling that up, it was Brian Colberger. He had a
car ride with someone, some kind of acquaintance, and throughout

(43:51):
that car ride, Brian Coberger, I believe, said I can
get any woman out there, something to that degree. Is
that correct?

Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah? It was a Ben I think it was Ben Roberts.
Was it was he? He was in school with Brian
Coberger and they were in a car ride on the
way home and Coburger was, you know, lamenting that women,
you know, really kind of belong at home in the kitchen,
that whole kind of machismo and not in the classroom
and not in the classroom. Additionally, he said that he

(44:23):
could walk into any room and have any woman he
wanted sexually, like, those were the words he used in
the stoff.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
Brian Coburger used, right, but which seems so probably talking.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
We have reached out, you know, we make the documentary.
He was on our call list. I didn't even realize
that it was the same person, but I wasn't that. Yeah,
I think that means Brian Coburger was kind of talking big,
you know, and I think so still very small. Sometimes
you talk very big and with given the proper stage.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
Because he also didn't really.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Like like allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly you know, the the
tough guys, the guys that get all the girls.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
The chad track. Yeah, that's what in cells call so's.
There's chads and Stacy's, and chads are like the popular guys.
Stacy's are the popular girls, and they despise chads and so, yeah,
you're right, he's trying to pump himself up to be
more of a chad a little really not yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Like he wants to feel like he's the big man
and you know, oh, you know, nothing to see here.
Over Compensating, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

Speaker 4 (45:25):
Yeah, this is true Crime tonight on iHeart Radio. I'm
Courtney Armstrong here with Buddy Moven and Stephanie Leideker. We're
talking about Brian Cobeger and Elliott Roger. We want to
hear what you think about that or anything we've spoken
about this evening. Give us a call at eighty eight
three one Crime. So, Boddy, just to reset a little
bit what you were speaking about with the chads and

(45:46):
the stacies. So, an incel and involuntary celibate is a
man who is involuntarily meaning is would like to have
sexual relations but is not having them. And then the
chads are the men who are what ever percentage the
in cells perceive of men who get all of the women.
And it's it's kind of this interesting dynamic from what

(46:07):
I understand having researched it of it's both an hate
and an envy.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Right, that's the scary part, the jealous her.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, the perfect intersection, right, almost like Barbie and Ken right,
Like Courtney, I think you said that last night as
an emblematic example of like, oh, the girls that think
they look like a Barbie type.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Again, this is a stereotype, not reality.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
That's enraging because they're the ones that you know, maybe
he wants to get and can't.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Right. So, and there's another comparison that I wanted to
kind of point out, and this is speculation alert. I
need like a sound speculation alerts? Can we get that?

Speaker 2 (46:43):
It's like, let's what would the sound be like, I
don't know it like an alarm? Yeah, yeah, let's get
a speculation alert.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
But I wanted to point out that, you know, it's
it's been speculated and what not that mad Mattiemogen was
Brian Coberger's target and know she it's also speculated that
she was the first one stabbed and murdered in Idaho,
and so it's been kind of speculated that Brian Coberger
may have been kind of obsessed with her in a sense,

(47:11):
and we don't know what that looks like, but it
has been talked about quite a bit. Additionally, Elliott Roger
was kind of obsessed with a Maddie. Did you guys know.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
That you had mentioned this last night? I did not
know this, but the word maddie obviously, because we're so
close to the you know, Idaho massacre and the you know,
the tragedy there that seems like interesting at the bare minimum.
So was it against Mattie's as a general.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
I don't know, it's it's just an interesting coincidence. Elliott
Roger had a friend, I think it was like middle
school or high school, and that friend brought in this girl,
Maddie to their little circle. And unfortunately this friend of
his died, this guy friend. And when his friend died,
this Maddie girl turned her back on Elliott okay, because

(47:58):
apparently she was really friends with a guy who died.
Right well, Elliott Roger came to hate this Maddie and
he wrote about her in his manifesto like a lot,
and he was like, she's everything I hate about women.
She's popular, she's tall, she's beautiful, she's slender, she's you know,
I looked at her on Facebook, and I'm disgusted with
the men that she's with. Like, he really hated this

(48:21):
this Maddie person in his in his manifesto, And I
thought it was interesting that there's like this parallel, then
there's another one. There's another Listen, I'm going to plow
through these speculations in the search warrant. When Brian Coberger
was arrested, they searched the home of the parents, right,
and in the home there's you know, when there's a
search warrant and it's public like like we have with

(48:43):
this case. You basically have a list of items that
the police took from the home, you know, like shirt,
you know, sock, glove, you know, those kinds of things.
In this list, it says that they found a book
with passage underlined on page one eighteen. So today I
was like, let's go look because we were talking about,
you know, Elliott Roger, and I was like, let me

(49:05):
go look at page one eighteen at this manifesto. I
never have before. I never looked at it before, so
I did, and it's interesting. On page one eighteen it
says this, you guys, it came to a point where
I had to set a date for the day of retribution.
That is what Elliott Roger calls the day that he,
you know, went on his spree killing. It came to
a point where I had to set a date for
the day of retribution. I originally considered doing it on

(49:27):
the Halloween of twenty thirteen. That's when the entire town
erupts in Rausch's partying. There would literally be thousands of
people crowded together who I could kill with these and
the goal was to kill everyone, to utterly destroy that
wretched town. But then, after seeing footage of previous Halloween
events on YouTube, I saw that just too many cops
walking around it would be too risky. So the day

(49:48):
of retribution would have to be on a normal party weekend.
So I set it for some time during November of
twenty thirteen. Stop. Yeah, it's an interesting it's interesting, and
we know that that day was the last like football
game event or something like in Moscow. It was like
the last hurrah before break. Everyone's in town for this
big football game. It was a big night in Moscow.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
You are blowing my brains right now to peace and listen.
It could be just you know, listen, it could just
be a coincidence. But you know, one of the big
outlandish or outstanding I should say, which is therefore outlandish
details about the Idaho massacre.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Is why that day? Why why that morning? Oh we
have a talkback? Should we play the talk back?

Speaker 5 (50:29):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (50:30):
Pay true crime tonight. Do you think in cells are
as dangerous of people as people make them out to be.
They seem more likely that they're going to harm themselves
than other people, all because they're lonely young men who
can't seem to win with girls, make friends, and can't
find their place in the world.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
I mean, that's a good point, a really fair No,
it is fair because not all, like I said saying earlier,
not all in cells are violent. Some are just lonely
people and it is sad for them. You know, they
feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world.
They're they're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship, and
the only friends they have are those online that they've

(51:08):
you know, formed in these communities. The problem is that
those communities are fostering that feeling and it's pumping them
up and making them even more you know, the rihtic ors,
making them more violent. So yeah, yeah, you're you know,
you're of course, I think that we are probably making
them out to be pretty bad, but that's definitely not
the intention. The intention is just to bring awareness to

(51:31):
the really small number of in cels who are taking
it a step further and harming women.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
It's a pretty violent ideology though to some of his sense,
and also worth noting. You know, it's such a good perspective,
and I'm so glad for that talk back, because look,
maybe it's also true that you know, as women, we're
able to be a little bit more emotional, We're able
to express ourselves.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
You know, without judgement.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
That's like, you know, sort of like a chick thing, right,
and you know, young boys or at least I'm just
this is a very broad stroke. Sometimes it's like tough
en up, you know, like being a man, you know,
don't show any emotion. So imagine you're feeling lonely. Let's
add COVID to that equation. Let's feel isolated to that equation.
And now you don't necessarily have the tools or the

(52:13):
skill set to be able to verbalize those feelings. So yeah,
you could get sucked into the dark web pretty quickly.
And guess what, on that little like forum, potentially there
are some you know, scary people who are you know,
kind of feeding off that as well, and air quotes
grooming these young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably

(52:34):
a pretty radical group, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
But the talkback, you know, thank you again for leaving that.
You know, you make a really good point, and it
is a lot the majority of people who identify as
in cels, the majority will be nonviolent ultimately, and the
absolute majority are deeply lonely. And part of what we're
talking about is to figure out how do you recognize

(52:57):
if someone you love is an insult is becoming withdrawn.
I was after we spoke about this last night, I
started doing a little bit more research and watching some
different things and reading. And there was a young man
who said, who identified as an inceell, who said, when
I'm outside my house dealing with regular dealing with real people,

(53:18):
that feels like I'm in a computer game. When I'm inside,
I feel safer and I know who's there. So it's
it's a really absolute.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
That I've heard that you that quite a bit, that
they feel like an NPC outside in the world, which
is a non playing character in a video game term.
Oh so if you hear in cells, we'll say NPC
quite a bit, and along with like the red pill ideology,
which of course is that they're the ones who are
awake and we're the ones who are basically living in

(53:48):
a dream, you know, So the NPC thing is something
that you'll hear them say quite often. I have felt
that way before in my life.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
I too, of course, I'm human, but the majority in
years and that's your reality. By the way, red pilling.
I learned last night after the show not too that
I need to be a little more knowledgeable before I
throw it around, because I did it.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
That happened.

Speaker 4 (54:12):
Okay. I admitted that I have not seen the matrix
and I still haven't because last night I was watching
in cel documentaries. But I walked in and said to
my husband, so, have you been red pilled? He said,
good Lord, I hope not, and I said, no, it
means you know the truth. And he's like, I don't
think it's usually a very good truth that it indicates.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah, it usually doesn't expose a very good truth, right.
So I wanted to read part of the manifesto that
mentions Maddie. You know, previously I had mentioned that Elliott
Roger wrote about a Maddie in his manifesto and he
you know, they were childhood friends, and he often lamented
in his manifesto about how normal it was for you know,

(54:53):
them to play together when they were little, and they
would ride bikes together, and they would take baths together
when they were little because their families are friends and
was prob but he said in his manifesto that it
was probably the only time he would ever see a
woman naked. That was his own age, which is crazy
to me. We just absorb that. So when he was
a young boy and he had like a young girl

(55:13):
friends like there were but they were family friends. Yeah, yeah,
that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
And he recalls that as like the closest he's been
to like the opposite sex.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
When they were little, like I'm thinking, you know, five
six years old, when they were little, And then he
goes on to mention that, you know, later in life,
his mother invited her family. They tried to rekindle this relationship,
and she had just graduated from USC and he says,
I call that the University of spoiled. I'm not going
to say the word, but you can imagine I'm going

(55:44):
to say the C word, and that before they came
to the house, he had stalked her Facebook for a
bit and this is what he wrote. I saw that
she was the exact image of everything I hate in women.
She was popular, spoiled USC girl who partied with her
hot beautiful blas on here click of friends. All of
them looked like absolute seaword, and my hatred for them

(56:05):
grew from each picture I saw on her profile. They
were the kind of beautiful, popular people who lived pleasurable
lives and will look down on me as inferior scum,
never accepting me as one of them.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
I mean, that sums it up right there. I guess
that's the DNA of this, right, That's where the Brondy
Holberger connection is. How interesting? I mean, look who social media?

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Man?

Speaker 2 (56:26):
I mean, listen, I'm not to be annoying about this,
but again, like it's such a a it's just a
glance at someone's life and look suddenly it's kind of
the core of why people are developing relationships with people,
good and bad. In this case, it's just pure jealousy. Yeah, listen,
this is true crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney

(56:47):
Armstrong here with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker. We're talking
about insults, We're talking about Brian Colberger, and we are
talking about Jeffrey Epstein. And where is the list? Question Mark?
Give us a call. Do you have the list?

Speaker 4 (57:00):
Were eighty eight three one crime? But listen, I don't
play video games.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Because I do I'm a game well, but I.

Speaker 4 (57:08):
Bring that up to say, I didn't know what you say,
NPG NPC now years old, a non planning character. That's
horrifying to think. And you both said you felt that
way at certain moments. I certainly have at moments, but
imagine that's your existence. And again, these men that I
was watching these interviews with in cells, you know, they

(57:30):
were just saying, I have no place. And these were everyone,
to my knowledge, was non violent, and there was it
was a portrait of in cells, and they were saying,
the rage inside my body. It has no place to go.
Everyone else has this beautiful life. I have nothing. I mean,
just the despair. It's it's just really it's a very

(57:50):
rough stuff.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
If you notice one thing about in Cells that I've noticed,
those that they always tend to go for the really,
you know, socially appropriate beautiful women, right, like the typical
you know, let's just say, blonde hair, blue eyed, skinny woman. Right.
They never look at average women. They are their rage

(58:12):
is against beautiful women. It's very interesting, Well that I
feel that way.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
I would hazard a guess that because that's also easier
to look and say, oh, those you know, the beautiful blonde,
the stereotype that you're talking about which all of us
can picture. It's easier to target. My guess is just
the pure loneliness that a lot of these guys wouldn't
know how to speak to any woman.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Well, if we're talking about Brian Coberger and we have been,
we learned in the dateline leaks that you know, there
was an interest, there was a woman interested in him,
and he turned her down because he was too good
for her.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Yeah, I mean, I guess you're idealizing this, sir, because she's.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
Barbie type, right, And that's kind of what I was thinking, was,
you know, he had an opportunity and with this this
coworker basically his peer. She's not like the stereotypical what
his idea of a woman is. And are all in cells? Men? Boys? No,
there are cells, There are fem cells, and I you
know what, I don't know a lot about them cells.

(59:12):
But the in cell community was it started from a
woman in Canada who was, you know, on dating websites
not she was struggling trying to find people, and she
was just looking for community, and she started talking about
her loneliness and it became like overtook with men, and
so it became an in cell movement. But there are
fem cells. I don't know a lot about them, but
I think it'd be interesting to look into it. I'd

(59:34):
be so curious too.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
And also, you know, again I'm not a biology teacher,
but I wonder if you're a guy and it's not
highly promoted to be emotional, now you have emotions that
are displaced and you don't know where to put them.
Add some testosterone and hormones to a young man, like, yeah,
the rage is real, and I don't know. I'd love
to have like a therapist or somebody on at some
point a better life. I would do like the warning

(59:56):
signs and how we can like help, I would too, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (59:59):
And around next we have a little bit more good
news in the true crime world. We're going to find
out about Operation Drag and I, so stay tuned for that.
We also have a missing woman to talk about and
we want to hear from you. We're at eight eight
eight three one Crime, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
We're kind of getting our minds blown a little bit
about this in cell conversation and doing a deep dive
on that. And also we have some positive news in
the land of true crime, some success stories. We're trying
to kind of soften our palettes a little bit. I
know it's been very dark news lately, and you know,
we need a little levity or something positive.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
So first we have a talk back, though, let's go
to that.

Speaker 6 (01:00:54):
I just want to say that Body, you absolutely just
blew my mind with that, Elliott Rogers, Ryan Coburger, page
one to eighteen Discovery. I can't believe that you just
discovered that on your own today. I feel like it's
just too weird to be a coincidence, honestly, and I
feel like you just like cracked a huge part of
this case and you need to like report it to
the Moscow authorities.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Like yes, then I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
I second that I know Courtney Third's that you see?
You see Body is everybody's face. Renee forgot about me. Yeah,
but this girl, she's just started listening and confused her voices,
because let's be honest, we always just a giggle that
this show should be called two Smart Girls, and then
you have to decide who we're referring to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
It's definitely not me. So I grew thank you. I mean,
that's really sweet, but I think this is you know,
obviously I was looking at it this morning and I
was like, oh my god, I emailed you guys. But
then I have to admit I did a search for it,
and it's been it's been talked about before. So even
though I discovered it like naturally and on my own
or whatever, other people have been talking about it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
So it's take the wind, take you a thank you
art you both are and I think that was as
lovely as it gets. It is a really interesting intersection.
It's undeniable. Frankly, yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
It's I mean, it's I don't know if it's meaningful,
but you know, when you start adding all these pieces together,
it it I think the totality of these circumstances means something, right.
And listene, you know, these people that that do these
crime solving like for real professional like cops and the
FBI and behavior people, they already know all this stuff.

(01:02:30):
You know, they have to they have to already know
this stuff. Nobody needs to hear from me. But thank
you so much for the compliment. And let's, you know, let's.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Let's just discuss also just to like, you know, add
to that and add to that callback you're being a
little humble. If you guys don't recall, body is the
star of donef with Kats, the Netflix documentary Emmy Award
winning on My Dad, and it's because she actually solved
you know, she will never she look it, she's already
shaken her head. No, okay, you can watch it for

(01:02:56):
yourself and you decide how brilliant she is. But listen, Yes,
of course, authorities and scientists and detectives are on it,
and they know so much and they're working so hard.
But sometimes it does take a second set of eyes, sure,
or even just fresh eyes and really fresh, smart ones
who do it ethically. So don't take the compliment, take
the win, and we agree.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
Yes, and if you haven't seen it, watch Don't Have
with Cats. I'm so good you will have your mind
actually blown.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
It is good. I can't. I don't know it. Just
you know, you know me.

Speaker 5 (01:03:27):
I'm humble.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
You are the humblest cat in town. Pun intended. Yeah, well,
thank you, thank you. It's not off with her.

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
Here's here's a little bit of on Netflix. It is
on Netflix. Guest, pardon me, Don't Have with Cats on Netflix.
So other great things to keep her eye out for
is Operation Dragon, ie and in this it was an
operation led by the US Marshall Service and had twenty
agencies working on it. And this operation rescued sixty critically

(01:03:56):
missing Florida children. Wow, this just happened a couple of
weeks go, and these vulnerable children have been have been
found they were at risk of crimes of violence or
had other risk factors substance abuse, sexual exploitation, domestic violence,
crime exposure. I mean, just real children who needed to
be taken out of the situations that they were in.

(01:04:19):
Sixty six zero, that's right. Eight people have been arrested.
These charges range from human trafficking, child endangement, drug possession,
drug trafficking. But again, all these twenty agencies came together
and seventeen boys and forty three girls were recovered. They
ranged in age from nine to seventeen.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
Nine years old.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Yeah, and you got to remember this is again hats
off to law enforcement in this case. I mean, the
coordination that's required to pull something at that level off
is pretty astounding. And that's an an unimaginable number of
young people. So again we use the word it's sex
trafficking pretty loosely.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
Listen, can you imagine sixty kids. Your kid is missing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
They're about to get put into another system where you
may never see them again, and that's the end of it.
There's no way home, there's no there's nowhere back.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Oftentimes, and you know, listen, oftentimes they get yanked, whether
that's from a Native American reservation where there's very you know,
there's limited law enforcement, or just from somebody's backyard and
they're you know, taken there. Sometimes their visuals are changed,
like their hair is cut and colored and like they
don't necessarily look like the missing poster, if you will,

(01:05:37):
and you get into the system and you get put
to a different state and another all.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
Of a sudden anything like they did when they went missing,
right exactly. Oh my gosh, we have to really get
up to speed on this like age progression, Like you know,
this is how they would look. Now, that's right. I'd
love to dig into to find somebody. Sketch Cop. Sketch Cop.
I worked with him on the podcast with you Guys. Yeah,
he did get a catch Cop gets Catch Cop. He's great.

(01:06:03):
He is so great.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Actually, it's funny you should say that. I actually he
just like popped up on one of my alerts. Yeah,
we should totally do that, and even somebody from this
particular operation, you know, hats off to the many who
put their own lives at risk to pull this off.
Maybe there's somebody from that side of things, from law enforcement,
et cetera, who can kind of come in and teach

(01:06:25):
us a little bit more about it and how to
keep ourselves.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
And so I really I don't have kids, so I'm
like really uneducated on you know, what it means to
be a parent and the things that you have to
look out for these days. I can't imagine being But
you were a kid, well, but you were a kid.
I was a kid, Yeah, but I was a kid
in the seventies though.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
Yeah, but these children, they are really even Stephanie earlier
you said and maybe parents are missing and perhaps in
some missing their children. Not so for most of these
sixty children who now have been rescued, because many of
them have been in the foster care system. Maybe they've
run a way, and a lot of them have been

(01:07:02):
lured into really dangerous situations. They've been exploited, They've been
exchanged for food or clothing, these children, but they are
not riskuing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
I'm body move in and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong
and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are right in the middle
of all of today's top true crime headlines. Do you
have a question or opinion, give us a call at
eighty eight thirty one Crime, or tell us your thoughts
on the talk back app. Stephanie, you're raising your hand.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Like I'm raising my hand about sex trafficking because it's
again another topic in a rabbit hole I want to
continue to go to. It's really it's triggering. I know
it's too sad, but like I guess, because it's so sad.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
We kind of all want to look the other way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
I just do you know what the number one spot
in time an event is for sex trafficking?

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
No, the super Bowl? Yep, the Super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
And by the way, it's really high like the tech involved.
It's not just like some random guy who snatches a kid.
I mean sometimes that happens as well, but it's a
really high stakes operation in one of the largest industries
in the world financially speaking, and they target social media
sex traffickers as an industry. Now, this is very highly

(01:08:07):
coordinated at a very high level. Don't get me started
on this rabbit hole, but we did the documentary about it.
But also there's we can't even scratch the surface these
these there's tech that really does target social media and
looks for young children who are in particularly precarious environments. Right,
maybe mom and dad gave them up, Maybe they're in

(01:08:27):
a foster care system that no one's going to come
looking too fast. Maybe they know that, you know, one
of them's on social media lamenting about how mom's an alcoholic,
are dad's doing drugs? Like, you know, like there's there's
not big eyes necessarily on them as a family. So
therefore they're the perfect target. And they really are using
social media as a scanning process. So it's not just

(01:08:49):
like the weirdo neighbor. Not that that doesn't happen as well, unfortunately,
I'm sad to report, but it is a big, high
stakes operation with many high level people involved.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
And I think the take away from like I'm just
hearing that, the takeaway in my opinion is Mom's your
children are beautiful. I'm sure they're great, but I do
not need to see them on Facebook. No, I do
not need to see them on X. Please stop posting
your kids because a lot of people don't understand social
media privacy settings, and so like their public their Facebook

(01:09:20):
is wide open, right, anybody can go to their Facebook
and see all their pictures. It's not I actually do
that only and you know whatnot I listen, your kids
are adorable. I love seeing their back to school pictures.
Those are my favorite. I love seeing all the back
to school pictures. But I promise you I don't need
to see them. And if I can see them, predators
can see them.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
So can I tell you one more scary thing to
add to that? You know, it's very common sometimes, you know,
pictures are posted of their little nuggets and their you know,
three year old little girls at the beach and they're
just in their little bottoms and they're all covered in
sands or passed out in the back or a long day. Yeah,
for a pedophile, they're looking at a naked target, right,
which is real.

Speaker 4 (01:10:00):
It's just really disturbing. Not surveys, investigations. I'm losing the
word I'm looking for. But it profiled different kinds of
Facebook groups and it was sort of young girls gymnastics
and young girls cheerleading. And statistically, you are far more
likely to be a man in your sort of forties fifties,

(01:10:22):
that age lurking in those groups than you are to
be someone trying to either get your child to the
next level or anything like that. So it is, it
can be dangerous.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
We need the more good news topics. This was a downer, sorry,
but I do think it's as important for us.

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
To note it. And it started out good. I took
it down here.

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):
Okay, all right, Well those sixty children, listen, they are
all in care right now, men, and yeah, so all
of them.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
Are, and they're all they were all unharmed. Is that
do we know? I guess we probably don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:10:53):
Probably don't know, And I'm sure if you're one of
the children who were being looked after, then no, it's
probably not.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Let's just soon crisis averted and job well done for
those who saved sixty children.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
I mean, that's an astounding mellery. Courtney. You were saying
that all these agencies work together. Do you know what
it takes to get agencies to communicate. I mean it's
like pulling.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Two towns to coordinate it, let alone agencies. Yeah, that's impressive,
big impressive effort. And imagine how much you know stakeouts
and things had to happen prior, pretty astounding.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
How do we get like a national task force for this,
like or something like if.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
We have as where people get to keep their lives
to making sure that this doesn't continue to happen. Courtney,
You'll remember there was one I'm going to give this
some thought. We should have this guy on. He was
so interesting and brilliant and really it's like for free.
They do all these high stake operations to to really
catch the predators essentially, but it's not just a predator,

(01:11:48):
it's a machine, and you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Know it's also really dangerous.

Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
Yeah, and listen, Missing Persons Monday, we have this, you know,
very tragic story in New Mexico.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Courtney, I know you've been following this close.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Yeah. Melissa Cassias. She's a New Mexico mother. She disappeared
after taking lunch to her daughter. And this was a
little over a week ago. This was yeah, Thursday, June
twenty six. It's very strange. She literally, she's an administrative
assistant for a federal government in Los Alamos National Laboratory.
Drove to work that morning. She forgot her work badge.

(01:12:23):
We've all done that, but she knew that for clearance,
decided to work from home. She later and this is
the last time that it was confirmed she was seen.
I believe she took lunch to her daughter and left
the area at one o'clock, so we know that that happened.
But then when her daughter returned home, Melissa, her mother
was not there. Later, there was a tip that came

(01:12:44):
in someone allegedly saw her walking long foot on Highway
five eighteen in Talpa, New Mexico, and was apparently seen
on a neighbor's ring doorbell on the camera. So so far,
hundreds of volunteers and family members in law enforcement have
spent a long time searching for her. There is a
reward and the family is asking anyone to call five

(01:13:09):
oh five, four, two, five, six, seven seven to one
if they've seen her. So let's all be on the
lookout for Melissica.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Cis And she works at Los Alamos. Yes, interesting, that's
what they do. That's where they developed the A bomb.
That's where like plutonium studies are done in like Oppenheimer,
it's all done at Los Alamos. That's a very famous laboratory.
Not not that has has anything to do with it.
It's just interesting. Well maybe it does I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
Well, I don't know, but you know again, she she
tried to go to work, didn't have her badge at
Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
And wow, yeah, you can't get in that place if
you don't have a badge. I mean that's like top
that's like Department of Energy stuff. They're very that's a
very very important laboratory for the country. Wow. Yeah, that
suddenly seems suspicious to me. I know, that's like the
first thing I went to mind home, like Los Alamos.
What well, not that I listen, she's missing. She needs
to be found, yeah, bottom line course regardless. Oh my gosh,

(01:14:06):
that's interesting. So she just disappeared. Yeah, no trace of her.
No interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Please, I hope we can be helpful, like yeah, everybody
be on the lookout, is right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:15):
So well, sorry, I didn't mean that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
I just know it's my brain just went to lots
of different places. I'm not familiar with that place.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
Oh you're not. No, I don't know how I'm not.
That's where the A bomb was developed, Like that's where
Oppenheimer did all his research and what right, right? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Oppenheimer connection. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, they do
like AI. They do a lot of AI stuff. Now, wow, and.

Speaker 4 (01:14:39):
Body, you're one hundred percent correct. You know, my friend Google,
it's one of the most highly secured facilities in the
US and possibly the world.

Speaker 3 (01:14:48):
Yeah, what this is like the this is like the
big time like secret installation, not secret because everybody knows
about it, but you know what I mean, Like, you
cannot get in this place without a badge.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
So just to play that out again, she doesn't have
her badge, She drops off food to her child, and
then boom, she's vanished, never to be seen. Yeah, hopefully
we can dig into that a little bit deeper.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
Poor thing. I hope she I hope she's I hope
she's okay. I hope she's well. I don't know. My
brain's gone a mile a minute. But yeah, we'll play
in there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
And yeah, we're gonna have to dig in further and listen.
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(01:15:38):
and yeah, thank you for the great night. Everybody, please
stay safe.