Uncovering Epstein: Island, Autopsy, and the Missing Minute

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Guess what, We're
talking True crime all the time. It's Sunday, July thirteenth,
and we've got a stack knight of headlines. So listen.
This Epstein thing has blown up across the world and
we want some answers. What could possibly be the reason
for that tape to be actually modified? So we're going
to get into that in a very big way. What

(00:41):
does it mean? We do have some insight sourcing just
into the Epstein world. Lisa Bryant, who is the executive
producer and director of the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich, which
really focuses on the Epstein days and the victims, etc.
As well as Gilaine Maxwell, She's going to be joining
us to kind of dig in and we'll hear her
opinions about what all of this could or couldn't mean. Also,

(01:03):
Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert in host of Bodybags, is
also going to be joining us to break down suicide
or did Jeffrey Epstein get killed or was he killed intentionally?
Always the age old question. And also there have been
some new developments in the Menandez case, and later in
the show we're also going to be talking a bit
more about the Brian Coberger new developments and the Idaho

(01:26):
student murders. One of the victims mothers is speaking out
for the very first time, so we'll have more on
that as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of
KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries,
and I get to do that with Courtney Armstrong, host
and also the voice of many of our podcasts, as
well as Vadi move In. You'll recognize her of course

(01:47):
from Don't f with Katz, the Emmy Award winning documentary
and listen. We want to hear from you, so please
jump in join the conversation. There's been a ton in
the news, so if you want to weigh in, call
us at eight eight eight three one Crime, or you
could hit us up on our socials at True Crime
Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime
Tonight on Facebook. So and also one last thing, I

(02:08):
just have to say it on behalf of all three
of us. It's been so refreshing to a get your
emails and your cases that you really want us to
focus on. We're getting them, We're hearing it. We're going
to be digging into this new development in this possible
new serial killer. So thank you. Just keep those coming.
We will be doing every single one. So please thank

(02:31):
you for being our true crime A little true crime crew.
I guess we should call it our family. So keep
those ideas coming. But first body, I know you're going
to hit us up with some headlines. Yeah, where do
you want to start?

Speaker 3 (02:44):
While there's a big break for the Menanda's brothers, so
Eric and Lyle Menenda's the brothers at the center of
like the most infamous murder case in US history. They
just scored like a super major legal win. As they
gear up for you know, they have a hearing for parole.
They've had a lot of little lately, Okay, so they
were granted re sentencing and they got like, instead of

(03:04):
life without the possibility of parrol, now they have the
possibility of parole and they have that hearing in August.
I think it's late August the twenty first, and the
twenty second Well, a new court order from July eighth
is putting pressure on the state to explain why key
evidence was kept out of their trial. And this evidence
is that letter. Do you remember we had that gentleman

(03:25):
on that found the letter. What was his name, Robert,
Robert Robert, Yes, And this letter it was written prior
to the murders and it explains to his lyle's cousin
the molestation that they were having. And well, this letter
was excluded from court. So they filed for habeas corpus relief.
Now they have until I think they have thirty days

(03:46):
to respond to this letter of the prosecution, and the
judge says that they have to explain why the brother's
habeas relief should not be granted.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
So if the case, yeah, like for this case specifically,
the Menanda's brothers were you know, convicted for murdering both
of their parents. This is back in the eighties, very infamous.
There's been a documentary also, the Ryan Murphy scripted series
based on them. And look they're now saying, we served
our time. This was a murder because we were being

(04:18):
sexually abused and that was not taken into consideration and
they've been looking to be freed, and now this is
yet another step closer for them.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Right their conviction.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
If habeas corpus relief is granted, if the judge says, yeah, okay,
let's go ahead, and you know, get this going, their
original verdicts could be overturned, which is wild now. It
could be overturned partially, it could be overturned fully, a
new trial could be ordered, and any number of things
could happen. I'm not saying they're going to get out,
because you know, they were never convicted now, but it

(04:50):
does grant them relief and we'll have to see what happens. Wow,
they have thirty days to they have thirty days to respond,
so we'll see. We'll keep an eye on it, and
we're gonna we're gonna deep dive into it tomorrow too,
so stay tuned for that.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Great, great, great great, Yeah, we're also going to be
digging into those Blake Lively and and so there's a
hearing on Thursday, so we'll get to that later in
the week as well.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
I saw on an X there's a like a social
media influencer I follow. She does like brand marketing and whatnot,
and she's been kind of like tweeting about this and
she got a subpoena from Google and has Blake Lily's name.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
While she's freaking out, Oh.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, like freaking out in a bad way or in
a bad way, She's like, what what did I do?

Speaker 5 (05:32):
You know?

Speaker 4 (05:32):
She's like, what I do?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
She talked about the Queen. I guess, I guess they
have a lot of money. And it's it's the PR
machine is so real, right, I'm so interested. We should
do like an expose on public relations, would have it
behind the scenes, Like I genuinely don't know.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
I don't either know that we.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Don't have it. I don't have it either on PR.
That's me, I do it. It's terrible. Yes, that's great.
Court you're you're a smiling over there. What do you
what do you want to say? New ar IM's strong?

Speaker 6 (06:01):
Well, I was actually just when you said, what the PR?
You know what's doing in the land of PR. And
it seems like it's gotten much more nefarious just in
recent I mean, going back to Johnny Depp and going
back to slander like PR.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
Remember that movie The Dog, Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I certainly do.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
I think it was nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
It's an excellent movie and it's the it's kind of
like how the PR machine can can be nefarious, right,
I mean ultimately that's kind of what it boils down to.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
It's a really great movie. If you haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
I haven't seen it.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
Oh you wag the dog, the Crossmit wag the dog.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
You know the saying how did you know the date
it was released? Top of it?

Speaker 6 (06:38):
Because I could be I could be wrong, but I'm
pretty sure I was in Australia when it happened and
I was like, wow, you really liked that movie. But
what the crux is is there's these politicians and the
PR and the politicians in some sort of hot water
I don't recall what, and it's like, well, you want
attention off of you, let's create a war, and a

(07:00):
PR machine creates it.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
It's it's a parody. It's oh, check that out. Is
it possible?

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Though?

Speaker 2 (07:08):
We're just seeing more of it because of social media,
and I think because maybe it's always been nefarious in there,
but we just are kind of getting a little smarter
to it now.

Speaker 6 (07:18):
I think it's quicker too. Everything used to there used
to actually be news cycles.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Right, this is a twenty four hour news cycle now right, like, yes,
we can't get away from the news if we wanted to.
That's true, speaking of bad politicians, right, thanks.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
For the news. Yes, we don't want you getting away
from it either, exactly.

Speaker 6 (07:38):
This is true crime.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Tonight We're on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 6 (07:41):
I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with my buddy Body
Movin and Stephanie Leidecker and Lisa Bryant is about to
join us so we can speak about Jeffrey Ebstein. If
you have thoughts, and I know you do, we want
to hear from you, give us a call. We're at
eighty eight three to one Crime or leave us a talkback.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, Lisa, Lisa Bryant. Do we have Lisa Bryant on
the line before Welcome to the show. I'll give a
little just sort of backstory on Lisa Bryant. So, Hi, Lisa,
Lisa Bryant has been We've been developing a project together,
Lisa Bryant and Kat and I've had the benefit of
working with you a bit in recent times. But really

(08:25):
your career kind of is it speaks for itself. As
you know, Lisa's been in the Joe Berlinger camp of greatness,
that most infamous momentarian and all the land. And you know,
she did this extraordinary Epstein doc back in the day
when frankly, it was probably a little dangerous to be
even making documentaries about Epstein and the victims, and it
was really extraordinary. So I'm so grateful Lisa that you're

(08:48):
joining us and can kind of, you know, give us
a little insight into the behive of all things Epstein
based on just your experience obviously, so welcome.

Speaker 7 (08:58):
Well, thank you so much. I'm happy to share my
you know, insights. And when I worked on that and
still have been following it, it just keeps going on
and on, and it's it's crazy, you know, that's kind
of a weird way to put on. But it's a
nightmare that never ends, really, you know, He's really just
a nightmare that never ends.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
So it's one of those cases. And I know I've
like tortured you about talking about it, you know, when
we've had our calls together completely on separate matters. I
don't like anyway back to Epstein because I really was
kind of taken by this case. You know, we'd always
heard these rumblings and in case you're listening and not
following it too closely. Jeffrey Epstein was a very wealthy
American financier and he was later convicted for being a

(09:43):
sex offender and operating a very vast sex trafficking thing.
But just to kind of paint a picture, he was
like a handsome man with like lots of opportunities and
New York City socialite guy and had a place in
West Palm Beach. I'm paraphrasing, but this was my interpret
And then he was like so wealthy and so infamous
that he had this he bought an island, and on

(10:05):
this island that only select people, if invited, could attend.
There was this big, fancy mansion and you know, basically
all the who's who of the world, whether it's Prince
Andrew or the Clinton's or you know, very big powerful
leaders in our world would go and you know, kind
of hobnob at this infamous island. And in my head,

(10:27):
I'm imagining like Gallas and you know, dining by the pool,
that kind of thing. And you know, little by little
we started hearing rumors that, I don't know, that hobnobbing
might be a little you know, weird, because also young
girls you know, as young as thirteen years old were
also being asked to go to this infamous island and
act as maybe messuses for these very high profile men.

(10:52):
And I don't think there were any real women there
per se, but regardless, the men are the ones that
I always was kind of hearing about. And then those massuses,
you know, slash massage therapists. Really that became like sort
of code word for sex trafficking. And the kind of
the scary part of this story has always been the
folklore of was this Epstein guy kind of luring young

(11:18):
women to come to this island to be with these
very high profile men, and then they would be videotape.
Like when this whole story broke back in the day,
it was like every single inch of this entire mansion
had had video cameras everywhere a little bit like what
we're seeing in the ditty case or allegedly what was
happening in the ditty case allegedly allegedly allegedly, so that

(11:40):
there was like a control room that you could see
all the cameras all over the mansion, so that if
like air quotes a prince or air quotes a former
president or an ambassador. People that were making very worldly
decisions would be air quotes lured there and then they
would be in the presence of maybe a thirteen year
old girl or young woman and oh shoot, you didn't

(12:02):
realize that that kind of got a little frisky.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
Oh shoot, we have.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Oh well, we have it on camera. And then that
was a way of kind of the there's a term
for it, honey potting or honey taking, and when you like,
lure bees to a hive. And then therefore those tapes
were then later used as blackmail and potentially very worldly situations.

Speaker 6 (12:23):
Eeke, when we come back, we're gonna hear everything from
top to bottom. Lease and I know we just bombarded
a bunch of information, but we cannot.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Wait to hear that thought.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
Hold that thought, your side of.

Speaker 6 (12:35):
This and listen, we are gonna continue diving into this.
When we come back, we'll have more insider knowledge on
Epstein in the wake of shocking recent developments, and later
also a forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan will be joining us.
Keep it here on True Crime Tonight, we are talking
true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. And we're about to be
joined by a very special guest, Lisa Bryant, who is
the director and the executive producer of Netflix's documentary Filthy Rich,
which really focused on Epstein and his victims back then.
But you know, she for sure has very interesting insight.
So just to go back to our last segment again,

(13:28):
some of this is my personal These are the theories
that we've heard in the press that people were being
lured to this island of high profile and power. That
is that has not improven. Fact, some men in black
vests have shown up downstairs here at the studio. I'm kidding.
So yeah. And then anyway, Jeffrey Epstein gets arrested and

(13:48):
charged and is sitting in prison in New York and
then suddenly he takes his own life. And that seemed
like the allegedly allegedly, allegedly allegedly, but now it seems that,
you know, Pambondi, now we're in current time. White House
Land is like, oh, yeah, all these high profile people
on his client list, We're going to share this with
the public because it's been long talked about and touted about.

(14:10):
And then she does a very unexpected thing. She does
it take back and is like, wait what, I didn't
mean that. No, there is no client list, not that
there's not a list that's been redacted for the sake
of the victims, etc. But rather there's no list at all.
Ks his right arm, kind of like his number two woman.
Her name is Gillien Maxwell. If you know this already,

(14:32):
just you know, bear with me. She was in fact
arrested for her shenanigains with him and is currently serving
time on federal charges because of these ongoings. So if
there was no client list, why is she in prison?
And why did we even volunteer this client list in
the first place. All of it is making the whole

(14:53):
country crazy because we just want some facts, right, So
don't forget the video. Well, the video, I guess is
like the the lead. So they released this.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
You know, eleven hour video that was apparently supposed to
be footage of you know, Jeffrey Epstein's cell. By the way,
you can you cannot see his cell in this video.
It's ridiculous. And they said it was the raw footage.
The raw footage was their exact verbage the Department of Justice.
But there's a minute missing and there's an aspect ratio change,

(15:22):
and the metadata tells us that the video has been
edited by you know, Adobe Pro Premiere and it's two
video clips flice together. So there's that which is only
adding fuel to the fire.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
By the way, I know how to edit on Adobe Premiere,
Like you would think this would be a little bit
more sophisticated. So well, they shouldn't have said raw footage
if it's not the raw footage eleven hours, one little section.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
So the footage and everything though, especially with this crowd,
it's everything, and there's been so much discussion about it.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Who's on the list? What does that mean? Like? Who
are we protecting? Who is is it nefarious? You know,
it seems like my two cents again, my two cents.
It seems like there's a pox on all the houses
right now. So is it one side, is it the other? No?
Or is it just this larger umbrella that scares the
but Jesus out of me. It makes me so scared,

(16:13):
and I know I'm not alone in this, so anyway,
welcome the sane one. Lisa Bryant. Can you imagine you
can bring Lisa Bryant being stuck with me in a
car or something having to hear this. So Lisa tell
us everything. What do you think of these days? So
your experience back in the day when you were discussing,
when you were making your doc and Epstein like, these

(16:34):
were all very these were scary topics. Were you ever
nervous even making this documentary in the first place?

Speaker 7 (16:40):
I was, let me tell you all about it in
one second. I just wanted to. Since you just gave
the rundown of kind of the latest, I was just
going to give you my gut reaction to all of
this news, the DOJ report, that's okay, I mean, of course,
my personal opinion after following this case for like seven
years now, it's hardly you. I really think this was

(17:03):
a really poor attempt to shut down the overwhelming public
interest and it just backfired. I think the report re
traumatizes the victims, gives no real answers, angers the public
that just really has this insatiable appetite and let's face it,
right to know about this story. I mean, inquiring minds

(17:23):
want to know things just don't add up. Everybody thinks
they're being lied to by the government, right, The only
feels conspiracies more. Ever, since the report came out. There's
been growing outrage I think daily because we're learning a
little bit more by different people who are speaking out.
You know, there's just this outrage you know by President

(17:44):
Trump's you know, most vocal supporters in the past, and
they're calling bs you know, where's the transparency. So that's
kind of my personal you know, take that. How stupid
do they think we are?

Speaker 4 (17:57):
I know, being guess.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
I do.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
I feel like I'm being casolate.

Speaker 6 (18:02):
So Lisa, just to super clarify, So, do you believe
there actually is the list which obviously Attorney General Pam
bondis BONDI said, you know, sitting on my desk, do
you believe that list exists?

Speaker 7 (18:14):
Well, I think the term list client list is not
the right term. No, I don't think there is a
client list because I think there are different different lists,
if you will, or names that have already been put
out there. And I think most, if not all of
the names that are going to be put out there
are somewhere to be seen and you can make your

(18:37):
own list. But I mean the idea that I think
the general public has of a list is like you know,
your pen and paper you'd have on your notepad, at school,
and then at the top jeffreyption. You would say Jeffrey's list,
that's that, never this, And I think that's a misconception
that the public has because really, there the flight logs, right,

(18:57):
there's flight logs that names a lot of people. A
lot of those people are guilty of something a lot
or not. Must be very clear about that. The Black
Book hundreds of pages, hundreds of names. There's a lot
of guilty people there having sex with girls. Whether they're
underage of age doesn't matter. There are there are guilty
people in there, and I know that from hearing from

(19:18):
the victims, from doing research from sadly people who probably
may never be prosecuted. But there are names there, so
you can kind of create your own list. There are
also names that have been put forth in court documents.
You know, we can't say every name that's been in.
Some have been reacted, some names have not been reacting.
Can't you know, assume that everyone is guilty that's there.

(19:40):
But you know, I think if you've been really investigating this,
and you know, I think talking to surviving is key
and getting you know their story. I think I have
my own list. I can't say I have a working list,
I should say, you know what I mean in terms
of like people that we you know, I had the

(20:01):
team that I've worked with on both the different documentaries,
the Jeffrey Epstein Filthie Rich and then the Maxwell follow
up documentary. So there's you know that we had great teams,
great people, great support with Netflix and Radical Medy and
Joe growing drew of course, And but it's very difficult
to name names. As you know, there's a lot of

(20:22):
big risks, and I have to say, you know, and
now to get back a little bit to how this
hole started and was I ever nervous? And it's funny.
I was working at Radical Media on a different project
that had just kind of finished, and Joe said to me,
I have another project coming up, but we really need
a female to direct this. Would you be interested in

(20:43):
this guy named Jeffrey Epstein? And I never heard Jeffrey Epstein,
I you know, didn't grow up in New York, California, girl,
and not that I just never was didn't run run
in those circles. And I looked him up, and you know,
the more I read, the more outraged I became, the
more interested I became in trying to reveal, you know,

(21:06):
some of this story, because he was very much alive
when I started. I started a story in November of
twenty eighteen. He was arrested eight months later. We had
already and this is little TV talk, but we had
already delivered our first rough cut to the network before
he was arrested. But I will say, and I still

(21:27):
say this, this was the hardest, faddest, most kind of
an inexcruciatingly frustrating story that I have ever could ever
and we'll ever work on and most important, you know,
I'm grateful for the experience. But it's also been very
heavy heavy. As you guys can imagine.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
The responsibility to tell the story. It's it's a massive
responsibility to tell the story. So yeah, I can see
why that would be like really heavy for you.

Speaker 7 (21:56):
Yeah, and you know he was he was very much alive,
trafficking girls, not just to his island, which is you know,
kind of the sexy thing that we and really I
think the worst and most you know, crazy stuff from
my research and then talking to people happened there. You know,
it's remote, it's hidden and very secretive, and you get

(22:18):
blown out there and you know it's very you know, mysterious,
but he also remembered he had his Manhattan townhouse, huge
Manhattan townhouse where all those cameras you're talking about and those,
and also on the island. He had his big mansion
in Santa Fe, well just outside of Sante in New Mexico.

(22:41):
He also had a place in Paris, you know, he
and then of course his infamous Florida home where his
high school operation went. He really had three different kind
of ways, and I guess decades of of grooming and
trafficking women. MaTx Elgawleyne Maxwell, his number two partner in crime,

(23:02):
was really a little along the ride for most of it.
It kind of started in the early nineties, you know,
for the most part. That's where it kind of really
picked up steam where she was really really involved. She
was his girlfriend, She dated him, she was madly in
love with.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
She loved him, right, that's my scoop on that, Like
she was crazy for him and like somehow thought getting
him more girls would keep him in her world. This
is again my like soap opera version in my head.
But it seemed like she was really.

Speaker 7 (23:32):
In love with She seems to be accurate. Yeah, that
that is that's Okay, that's what we reported, and that
seems to be why. I mean, it can never explain
why why would someone do the things that she has
been convicted of. Let's just say she's been convicted, so
we can say that she did. You know, she was
his you know, it was an international sex trafficking scheme,

(23:54):
really pyramids. He was at the top, the main pimp.
She was pimp number two. She was his right hand woman.
And really, especially in those early nineties, they were recruiting
you know, everything from models, the girls standing outside of
famous private schools in New York City, to going to

(24:14):
beauty pageants that presidents were hosting and things like that
and plucking out, you know, women that he was attracted to,
that spit the mold, that seemed like perhaps they were
in need of something. Summer camps, how you know, it
was always this kind of house. How I can help.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
More with expert Lisa Bryant on the shocking Epstein updates,
and we're going to be unpacking his alleged suicide with
forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and later we want to
be hearing from you. Give us a call at eight
eight eight thirty one Crime we'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight, where we're talking

Speaker 2 (25:05):
true crime all the time. And we're also joined by director,
executive producer, colleague and friend Lisa Bryant. Now, she made
the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich, the Epstein Free Epstein doc
as well as the follow up about Gileen Maxwell. So
Lisa was just telling us that she actually started working

(25:26):
on this documentary for you know, months before Jeffrey was
actually arrested. I didn't realize he was still alive when
you were working on this, Lisa. That means it was
very dangerous. So go ahead, phill Us in from what happens?
Were you ever at the island?

Speaker 7 (25:41):
No? Yes, a matter of fact, I staked out three
of his properties. I went to the island twice, once
when he was alive, once after he was dead, suicided, whatever.
And I also staked out his Florida home and his
New York mansion. And I did go actually to New

(26:01):
Mexico too and got there as well.

Speaker 8 (26:04):
But the island.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
While he went to the island, well.

Speaker 7 (26:08):
Let me clarify, I never went on. I was not
I was not allowed on the island for I took
a boat with a camera person. Of course, we're like.

Speaker 8 (26:17):
We're we're going that I was around the gods not
so much because everywhere you look, as you get closer,
because you fly into Saint Thomas and then you take
you know, a boat, you.

Speaker 7 (26:32):
Can it's it's you know, it's not huge, but it
certainly you'll take it a little while to put around it.
So we're like, oh, it looks like there's like almost
they look like little tanks. But I guess they're jeeps,
but from far away because some of them had like
you know, army prints, and I was kind of like, oh,
got some tanks out there protecting it. But actually I
think they were just jeeps. But there, you know, you

(26:53):
can see him in certain areas that we'd just you know,
go on the water a little further around seeing maybe
we can get on over there, maybe we can get
on under. And I'm telling you, the minute they are
they are all of his you know, security is on
guard before he's before he's arrested, after he's arrested, and
after he's dead, people are still running that island. So

(27:15):
we never were able to get on because we saw
these men on you know, these commerce or what jeeps
following the boats as going around, you know, to the island,
so we could see that they had guns. So that
was a little scary. But I will say that after
he was dead, I didn't see you know, we got
on the boat again because of course, that's what you

(27:35):
wanted to try to get on the island and take
pictures of yourself, you know, the whole crazy weird stuff
and see if there's a tunnels and all of that.
But anyway tunnel you get close to, well, there's rumors
there were tunnels underneath, and you know it's not I
don't even know if it's rumors, if I'm hearing it
from a survivor, you know, it's let's just say, there's

(27:59):
the answer. Could have been some tunnels underneath eye, you know,
I cannot say. But bottom line is, we go and
we're getting closer and closer to the docks, and there's
nobody in sight. But all of a sudden, probably I
don't know, twenty yards from the dock. He's kind of
it's kind of hilly, it's an island, and they're from
all sides. They're about I would say, two on each

(28:19):
side of these these men and jeeps again with with
literally black what looked like to me, I don't know
what machine, look looks like a machine done. And they
come hauling towards the yacht and like making noise with
some sort of noise maker or something. And I first thought, oh,
maybe this is like the police just protecting the island.

(28:41):
It was the night it was Epstein still had even
though he's gone, he's dead, you know, his people were
still for a very long time running all of his properties.
It took a long time to go through all this,
you know, the legal stuff and probade and all this
kind of stuff, which is I think some of this
is scillity's been going on. But anyway, we high tailed

(29:02):
out that. That was a little scary. The other time,
like when we staked out his house because we were
tracking my team was tracking his plane. You know, he
has a private jet his tail number, and we wanted
to approach his house. That I wasn't physically like afraid
he was going to do something to me, but I
really wanted to, you know, do like a door knock,

(29:22):
you know, like in TV your doorknock. So at a
house I did. It was like a door knock because
we had tracked his plane. We knew he was there.
We saw this mysterious you know escalade, like a parade
of escalades go in. So we just kind of sat outside.
There's you know, there's there's a gate and there's a
little buzzer. So I hit the buzzer and sure enough

(29:45):
his door manner or house manager says, you know, hello,
and I said, you know, as mister Epstein home. No,
he's not here. And I said, oh, I identified myself
and are you sure he's not here because I could
swear that I saw him pull in. Nope, he's not here.
If you want to leave your card, I said, I'm
absolutely going to leave my card. And anyway, I never

(30:06):
did get a chance to talk to him, but I
do believe in fact he was there and heading out.
And then one other time, this is you know, I.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Don't have tory, Like my jaws dropped right now that
you're putting yourself in these very dangerous these are like
the hornet's nest. Like we wouldn't even google his name
at one point because it was sort of that scary
of a case because of all of the high profile
people that he may or may not have been connected to.
So continue we're in awe.

Speaker 7 (30:35):
Well, I think part of it is I think I
was sort of in denial too. I don't think we
really knew at that point. How you know, you're hearing
these rumors and but we certainly didn't know it was
like hundreds of women and you know, I mean, we
just didn't know that when it was going on, we
knew it was bad and that you know that the

(30:56):
two thousand and eight the Palm Beach Police kind of
buffed that whole thing, or alex Acosta was the fall
guy for that government botch. I believe that, you know,
to give him just a slap on the wrist and
let him right back out. But it was just kind
of evolved into what it became. I guess that. So

(31:17):
I guess I didn't have the fear that I probably
should have.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Passed in retrospect in hindsight, right, like knowing what we
know now that he was like a real worldwide sex trafficker.
In case you're just joining us too, please hit us
up eight eight eight three one crime if you want
to join the conversation. We have director Lisa Bryant who
is an incredible director and executive producer, but also did

(31:42):
the Epstein and Geleen Maxwell documentaries on Netflix. So she's
kind of giving us a little behind the scenes here
and basically how she was knocking on doors when he
was alive and also tried to get on the island
when he was And by the way, the island's a
big deal because if young girls are being brought there, imagine, oh, hey,
come with us to this fancy island with this very fancy,

(32:02):
you know man and all of his fancy friends. And
then you can't get off the island because you have
to take a little private plane to get there in
the first place. So that's particularly scaring because you can't
just not that there's ever a just when you're being
you know, assaulted, but you can't run. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 7 (32:19):
He took the girl's passport. And actually Glene Maxwell often
she had a helicopter pilot's license. She would helicopter the
girls there from they would fly to the main island
and then they would she would helicopter some of them
over to Little Saint James was the name.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Of the island.

Speaker 4 (32:37):
That's wild perfect.

Speaker 7 (32:38):
Yeah, she is a license helicopter anyway, Yeah, we can
talk about her and her involvement.

Speaker 6 (32:44):
Oh, I was going to say on the Gileen Maxwell,
which is the documentary I watched most recently, and it
is so compelling and so well done. What's Killeen Maxwell?
Was she procuring all of these girls and women for
because the go ahead?

Speaker 7 (33:01):
Not the high school girls. Not the high school girls,
and she would she claimed that she was out of
his life by then. That turns out not to be
the case. She would actually kind of hit out on
the island. So there was still kind of the what
I would say, the older girls, a little bit older,
the high school girls, which is what made you know,
for the arrest. Really in two thousand and five is

(33:24):
when Palm Beach police got involved when the mother of
a fourteen year old girl said, oh, my daughter had
a school called me. She had all this cash in
her in her pocketbook and there was a fight that
broke out and anyway, so that's what started the investigation,
and they had you know, identified, you know, during that investigation,

(33:45):
like more than two dozen I think almost three dozen
victims of Jeffrey Epstein and so Glaine. But what was
crazy about that is the high school girls ended up
recruiting themselves. It was a crazy thing. And I think
that's what is so like unbelievable when people hear about this,
and it's it's fascinating, but not in a good way.

(34:07):
It's shocking really. So they had started with someone, you know,
who was a young woman, probably not much older than
high school who would you know, recruit and said, this
guy needs a massage, and then you know, if you
bring somebody then you can get money too. And and
you know, some of the girls like they didn't want to,

(34:27):
you know, take part in the massages, but hey, I'll
bring a friend. I mean, but these are all a
lot of the girls targeted were very vulnerable, you know,
had came from broken homes, had money problems, or they
you know, had big dreams that you know, he promised
to fulfill. But the fact that at you know, some

(34:47):
of these high schools, there was two high schools in
particular in West Palm Beach that the girls would recruit
each other and it was like a train and it
went on and on and on for like four or
five years till finally, you know, the the cops got
wind of it. But I don't know how, like the
teacher or other kids. Didn't everybody knew about it. The

(35:07):
survivors that we talked to, who are right underage girls.
It's a very open secret. How that never got out before.
It's crazy. But you know, when their children, their brains
are not fully formed. We know they can't get consent.
They're you know, getting some money, which I know a
lot of people have issue with, Well why did they

(35:28):
go back. They're getting something out of it, they got paid.
Their children they can't. And even once who are like
eighteen nineteen, you're still your brain is not fully formed.
Your your prefrontal cortex is not formed until you're in
your mid twenties. So it's and again when you're being
roomed and manipulated, and you know, he paid attention to

(35:50):
these girls, you know, and a lot of them. It's
kind of weird. I talked to some you know, weird
not even the right word. It's it's sad and shocking.
But some girl said that they actually were in love
with him, you know, And I don't think that's all
that in common. That sometimes room all in love with
your abuser.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
That's what groomers do. They make you fall in love
with them. That's the that's.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, especially like you know, he wasn't like, you know,
a scary looking guy like he was like a successful,
you know, affluent guy. And that's why having Elaine Maxwell
his number two was even more you know, damning Frankly,
and why she's Frankly serving time because you know, when
there's a woman around that, it makes it feel a
little safer. Right, So if you have a woman saying, oh,

(36:31):
it's cool, just come you'll be safe here, you don't
think like, oh my god, older, creepy man, he's going
to lock the door behind me. When there's somehow another
female in the mix, it seems somehow safer. And I
think that's really something worth exploring and us talking about. Absolutely. Listen,
there was allegedly this list of a very you know,
influential and high profile world leaders for example, that were

(36:55):
going to this very fancy island that he owned in girls,
young ones as young as thirteen years old were being
lured there to essentially have sex with these with these men.
And then Epstein allegedly allegedly allegedly was you know, videotaping it.
That was there was cameras everywhere, you know, The assertion

(37:15):
or the conspiracy theory behind it. Again, this is a
theory in one that I happened to agree with that
that was maybe revenge video. Right. So now you have
these young girls, high profile world leaders. Now there's videotape
of maybe some nefarious behavior, and suddenly that's maybe a
blackmail situation.

Speaker 9 (37:33):
Right.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
So that's a little bit of the collateral Undergrearent. It's
like collateral. It's like collateral.

Speaker 7 (37:39):
Yes. And what I think's interesting is because the DOJ
report says, quote, there was no credible evidence found that
Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals. Well, I do think there are
still some graphic comprom ats, as they call it, blackmail
tapes and photos that Epstein made of influential power for

(38:00):
men and others having sex with women that he and
Maxwell's trafficked to them, that he used leverage to build
his empire. And really, you know, that's how he made millions. Really,
I think almost all the survivors that I've spoken with
saying Steen cameras or learned they were hidden cameras at
multiple homes, not just the island. His New York home,

(38:22):
I know, was crawling with them, according to you know,
multiple survivors. And you remember when his home was raided.
Right after the arrest, they came out, FBI came out
carrying boxes of CDs and photos. They said photos. I'm
sure there were also some videos on those CDs. And

(38:43):
they also then raided the island and his homes, all
of the homes, you know. And also one of the
victims who, sadly, her name is Virginia Giufrey, sadly committed suicide.
But before we talk about that a little bit, she
said told me that, you know, Estein had told her
that he had taped these tapes of a lot of

(39:03):
important people doing things they shouldn't and that's he plat
Up told her that. Now, yes, I guess there's always
the chance that he could be making that up. But many,
many people believe he was running a blackmail operation on
behalf of a foreign government. Many people in DC and
elsewhere believe that.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
And you said, you said.

Speaker 7 (39:23):
They think he might have been operating on behalf of
foreign intelligence services.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
I mean, because it's used to the.

Speaker 7 (39:29):
Weapon is reel actually right, because.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
This information is used as a weapon. Compromound is a
very specific turn which is coming right off the heels
of the diddy stuff.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
I mean again, this is the high profile play right
now as dangerous as it gets. First of all, Lisa
Bryant with us, who's the director of the Epstein documentary
and the Gileen Maxwell follow up documentary. You can catch
it on Netflix, giving us sort of this inside track
information and like, listen, that is some scary stuff. So
the fact that that is now there's a little bit

(40:00):
take back of that information is also kind of scary
because you know, what do we do for victims? We listen,
We're going to be right back, So Lisa, I know
where we're keeping you for there's we'll be back True
Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. Welcome

(40:26):
back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time, and listen. We want you to
jump in and join the conversation eight eight eight three
one crime or hit us up on our socials at
True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, or at
True Crime Tonight on Facebook. We're talking Epstein, are we ever?
Because we have Lisa Bryant, the director of Filthy Rich

(40:48):
also the executive producer. So Filthy Rich is the documentary
about Jeffrey Epstein on Netflix. Definitely check it out. She
also did the follow up for Gilain Maxwell's dot commentary
and Lisa Bryan like she literally was going door to door,
knocking on doors. She took a boat to try to
get on the island. Turns out she was enabled to,

(41:09):
as we just heard, if you've missed any of the
last hour, you can always catch it right after the
show as a podcast. Please do so, Lisa back to you.
We were kind of knee deep in the many conspiracy theories,
or not even conspiracies, the many theories that at least
I'm seeing the chatter on is that maybe Epstein was
working for a foreign agent and was essentially, you know,

(41:30):
whether he was luring powerful, high profile world leaders to
his island and had videotapes everywhere in cameras, videotapes like
it's nineteen seventy five. He had cameras everywhere, So that
essentially if a leader or somebody of significance and importance
was you know, having sex with a thirteen year old
or an underage woman or even just a young woman

(41:53):
that was outside of his actual life, then there was
tape of it. Then that becomes like basically revenge listen
that has high value and high value amongst very very
influential people. So it's important stuff. And you know, we're
coming off the heels of the Didty documentary that I
just watch and also the Diddy trial that these are

(42:14):
some of the alleged things that frankly he wasn't brought
up on and that seems like a thing of the
past with Diddy. But the idea that there's blackmail like this,
and maybe more importantly, what that does for victims, because
the fear would be that victims are afraid to come
forward a because they don't want to be seen on videotapes,

(42:35):
you know, like that's so a embarrassing and horrifying, also
that it's incredibly dangerous and maybe the most significantly, Hey, look,
nobody believes you. And it seems as though in the
Epstein documentary that you made Lisa so beautifully that's kind
of the lead here, right. Virginia Dufrey, the probably the
loudest of the victims not very long ago, you know,

(42:55):
sadly took her life back in April. So we'd love
to hear from you kind of your experience with just
you know, the victims that you've spoken to.

Speaker 7 (43:04):
Well, Virginia, really I think nothing would have happened to
Epstein or Maxwell had it not been for her banging
the drum so loud. She started in twenty fifteen with
the lawsuit actually against Maxwell first because there was an
opportunity there that she was not going to have with Epstein.
It was more of a defamation case. But through the

(43:26):
depositions in that case, they were able to her attorneys
were able to get in all of the stuff that
was happening, all the trafficking, different allegations and whatnot. So
she never back down. I mean she named names, She
named big names, you know, and took a lot, a

(43:47):
lot of flack, a lot of heat.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
You know.

Speaker 7 (43:49):
She came very forward publicly against Prince Andrew Alan Dershwoodz.
There's a number of other people that you know are
in some of the depositions that may not be so public,
but she wanted to make your list. There's some other,
you know, very prominent names and things that she you know,

(44:09):
alleges with traffic too. And anyway, she never backed down.
And I think she had a very troubled life. I
don't want to speak too much on it, but she
had been trapped before she even met Epstein. And and
she had difficulties with her family and also with her
husband until anyway, I think it all got to be

(44:29):
too much, especially with a big lawsuit that was going
on after Epstein passed away. I don't want to get
into that either, but I just I just know she
had personal problems and some health problems, and I feel
like it just all became too much for her. And that's,
you know, really sad. There's been some drug overdoses with
with Epstein, you know victims, and there's certainly there. All

(44:52):
of them are continually, you know, a work in progress.
Trauma you know, presents itself in different forms. There's triggers
all the time. Time This DOJ report I know, I'm
speaking to a couple who I stay in touch with,
is very triggering for them to hear that, and then
it's really just another slap to them.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah, how could it not be. And anyone, you know,
anyone even listening who's been you know, subjected to any
kind of abuse, you know how hard it must be
to have to actually raise your hand and say this happened.
Number one, the idea that nobody will believe you, and
then maybe more significantly, like we see in those that
were brave enough to appear in your documentary and kind
of face their monsters while in court with cameras on them,

(45:34):
in the media pressures, et cetera. You know, they get
made out to be you know, trash yet again. And
you know, men like this who are grooming young women,
you know, they're looking for the ones that are the
most vulnerable. That makes you the best target, right, the
ones that are going through it or maybe have had
bad experiences in the past, and the self doubt, et cetera.

(45:55):
I always thought it was strange though, would you just
right before Virginia do freight her life back in April
I think it was maybe a month prior to that,
there was this incident where she was in a bus accident,
and then she had posted some photographs of herself with
a black and blue eye. Do you guys remember this?
And then the people that were also on the bus

(46:16):
with her that were like Taurus or something said, eh,
I wasn't really much of a bus accident. It all
seems so strange now again my Spidey sense and you know,
everybody raised there like this might maybe sound a little
out there. And Lisa, I'm pretty sure I texted you
that morning of like, listen, this all seems a little fishy.
No that suddenly here we are the DOJ is saying, nope,

(46:37):
take it back. Nothing to see here. That list never existed.
Oh well, the main loudest victim who's essentially the face
of this Epstein trial. Oh, what a coincidence. Just a
couple months ago she took her own life. Oh and
there was that weird incident right before that in your
heart because I know you went to the memorial. Does
that track or is that just I'm chasing a ghost?

Speaker 7 (47:00):
You know? Unlike the Epstein suicide, I do think he
sadly did take her own life because of her husband
is alleged to be an abuser. You know that it's
not untypical for people to kind of land in the
hands of someone. She's been married to for a very
long time, but allegedly he was abused towards her, and

(47:22):
he took her children away, and I think that became
too much for her, And I don know, I don't.
I don't want to comment on the whole bus thing
because I think there it was more of a personal
thing that was going on with her and her husband
that understand had to deal with that, and it's nobody's you.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Know, nobody's business, so that it is kind of just
a it's very sad, and our hearts would go out
to her. I mean, it was very brave for her
to speak up, and our hope is that victims continue
to do so because it's really hard to get justice
out there.

Speaker 7 (47:54):
It isn't Sometimes I will just want to point out that,
you know, over time, memories change or things come out
that you you know, as we know, you block things
out and protect any of these things you do, and
sometimes these and any stories are they're not stories, but
these incidents happened a long time ago, decades for some people,

(48:15):
so you know, details might be a little sketchy, or
they forgot something, or they told the story just a
slightly different. At the core, trafficking is trafficking, and they
were were trafficked, whether it was on this date or
that date, or they were this age in three months,
in this age in two months. But at the core,
you know, we have to listen to victims and and

(48:37):
you know and believe them, you know, for for at
the heart of what they're saying is true. And I
think unfortunately in this case, in particular, it was very
difficult because of the power dynamic was so skew and
these you know, wealthy, mostly white powerful men you know,
all held so much over their heads, right right, Oh my.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Gosh, yeah, like having you hear Lisa. First of all,
thank you. I know we kind of kept you so
much longer than maybe you anticipated. But you know, these
next couple of days, there's been some you know, new
developments in the news even right now, so all of
this is really significant context to the idea of hey,
like you know, we actually as we're talking about this,
we have to talk back about it right now. Hi.

Speaker 9 (49:22):
So, yes, I have a question.

Speaker 5 (49:24):
If we know some of the victims, why can't we
just go to the victims directly and ask them to
self report who their perpetrator was and get the list
that way instead of waiting for the Department of Justice
to release this list if it exists. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
What a great question, great, great, great question. Thank you
for that, Lisa.

Speaker 7 (49:48):
What do you say to that, Well, she's saying she'd
get this straight. She knows some of the victims, And
if she knows some of the victims, why don't they
self report who the list is?

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah? Like meaning we're all like waiting for the DOJ
to release it, and it's like, oh, the FBI the
list of redacted list. But if we know the list
of victims and those victims know who their perpetrators were,
you know.

Speaker 7 (50:10):
Well they do and they don't. I think I think, yeah, well,
I think some people have told people who they were
who they felt comfortable saying. But some people are afraid
to mention these powerful people's names because they were threatened.
Some find NDA's and see that scene successfully back in
you know, a long time ago, somewhat successfully there were

(50:30):
conditions on some.

Speaker 9 (50:31):
Of the shoots.

Speaker 7 (50:32):
But I think they're afraid. And again, I don't think
their list might be one person, and I you know
a lot of times they weren't. You know, not everybody
was a famous person either. There were just a lot
of john you know, they might still have been wealthy,
but maybe they're not, you know, CEO, you know, presidential whatever,
you know, famous. Yeah, saying is like.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yeah, like even though I'll say it because Bill Gates's
wife has said it anywhere up down in sideways that
you know the reason that she claims that she divorced
Bill Gates and again allegedly, allegedly allegedly is because of
his very close connection to Epstein and his constantly going
to the island, like she has said that everywhere. So
you know, these are big names. Again, we don't know

(51:16):
if that's accurate. What happens behind closed doors, who knows.
But like again, these are very people who are influencing
our world in a very meaningful way. You know. The
idea that they're coming together and that perhaps there's blackmail
being used at times when there are very big world
decisions being made is very unsettling. So it's important for
it's important for us to get some answers. So what

(51:38):
do you think is going to happen in the in
the in the coming days. We have only two minutes left,
so the the briefest answer to what happens tomorrow in
the news, what are we waking up to?

Speaker 9 (51:49):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (51:49):
Good, well, I wonder if I mean, you know, there
was this little fat tiff between you know, Pambondi, the
Attorney General and then the deputy FBI director on Friday,
who's upset that he feels like he didn't handle things properly.
Dan's on Gino. You know they I guess there was

(52:11):
a risk and all out yelling and screaming war so
he didn't show actually didn't happen on Friday. He didn't
show up to work on Friday and said he was
thinking about quitting. Uh, so it happened a couple of
days prior to that. But he thinks, you know, she
she made a mess of it. The DJ made a
mess of it, and you know it's I don't necessarily

(52:31):
think it's all her fault. And she's in a position
where she is just there almost like as an acting.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
Flack.

Speaker 7 (52:38):
Really she just has to do and say whatever you know,
her boss is saying, no matter how high up, whether
it's from Trump himself or just below, she just has
to do what they say. So I think she kind
of got caught in the middle, uh and cotied and
and uh maybe yeah, she didn't handle it great. But
I also think she was put in a really precarious position.

(53:00):
So I think that'll be interesting to see if it
causes a big shakeup, because I don't with the one
quick setter. And what's really interesting though, is that I
think before Dan Bongino got his job at the FBI,
and the same with the FBI director cash to tell Na,
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
So much for joining us today.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Your dedication to this case and getting justice for the
victims is something we should all be living up to.
Those interested in seeing Lisa's work and learning more about
the Epstein and Maxwell case watch her incredible documentaries on
Netflix stay right here True Crime Tonight, where we're talking

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Our very favorite forensics expert, host of Body Bags, Joseph
Scott Morgan joins us again. We're talking Epstein, So he's
going to weigh in on was he killed or did
he kill himself? So Courtney Armstrong, you want to fill
us in a little bit on the.

Speaker 6 (53:48):
Backstory, Absolutely so, Jeffrey Epstein, who has been EveryWare in
the news. A newly released FBI and Apartment of Justice
memo is reaffirmed Epstein died by suicide in twenty nineteen
and also that no client list ever existed, so.

Speaker 4 (54:08):
That has been released.

Speaker 6 (54:09):
This has sparked calls for Pam Bondi's replacement, she's the
Attorney General. The controversy has gone deeper. There has been
the emergence of a wild missing minute off of the
prison CCTV Close caption TV footage which alleged to show
outside of Jeffrey Epstein's cell, and Bondi explains that this

(54:33):
was due to quote, outdated equipment, but it doesn't make
any sense, and then she further doubled down on this
wildly missing minute.

Speaker 4 (54:42):
Well, in the metadata, yeah, it shows us that it's
been edited.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
It's two videos spliced together, and the aspect ratio changes
in this video like it it gets bigger, it's it's
it's pretty wild.

Speaker 6 (54:53):
Actually, well, according to the Attorney General, do not believe
your lie in eyes because the words out of her
mouth were apparently in this prison, every time it gets
almost near midnight.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
We lose a minute of tape.

Speaker 6 (55:05):
So anyway, that is what has been recently, just in
the past couple of days given out, which all leads
us to forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan being here to
talk about the suicide question mark. Joseph Scott Morgan, host
of the wildly successful podcast Body Bags.

Speaker 9 (55:26):
How are you I'm doing well? How are you guys doing.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
Better now that you're here?

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Yeah, I can't see Joseph right now. Joseph Scott Morgan,
forensics expert of greatness, is as tan as they get.

Speaker 4 (55:38):
It looks like he just got off the yacht.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, did you just roll straight from Malibu right to
Fantasy Island also known as.

Speaker 9 (55:47):
No you know? And I have for INDs that accusing
you lay in the tanning bed and I'm like, no,
I really don't. I just I've got a boat. I
just got out of my boat when I can. It's
my therapy.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
It's right at summer, A lot better than the.

Speaker 9 (56:00):
People that I'm doing, a lot better than the staff
that the Justice Department are doing right now. And hearing
don't see that, and you know, so I don't know. Look,
I've been going around around about Estein for all these
years now, since it came out of I first covered this.
I'll never forget. It was on a Sunday morning. I

(56:21):
was live on air in Atlanta on HLN and there
it began. And I haven't quit since then. And so
I have never help that his injuries were consistent with
the suicide. It's just there are too many inconsistencies. And
it's one of the most facile arguments I've heard, I

(56:42):
think in forensics in some time to try to get
us to buy into that. People are tired of being
treated like we're stupid and you know and just you
know when you look at the injuries that he sustained,
these injuries involve what's in the big question here is

(57:02):
the highwaid bone, which for you guys that don't know,
the hyoid bone. If you go superior anatomically, if you'll
find the cartilage and centered your throat and go up
like in mails where the Adams apple is really protuberant,
goes superior to that, that's where the highwaid is. And
it shaped some people say it's shaped like a bird.

(57:23):
Some people will use the term horsehoe. It's the only
non articulating bone in human body, and what that means
is that it doesn't communicate with any other bones. Its
sole purpose is to anchor the tongue in the back
of the throat, the only reason it's there. In the
course of my career, and again I've only got one
little slice, okay, of my career, my experiences, I have

(57:47):
only seen one case where the highwid was fractured, and
it was non homicidally related, and it was a car
crash where God went over a three story high off
ramp on itent and hit the top of the steering
wheel and like a nineteen sixty eight Plantiac at the
twelve o'clock position hit him in the throat, his highway.

(58:11):
Epstein's the greater horn. It's got two horns, the greater
well'scot four actually the greater and the lesser corner, and
they're actually horns. The one on the right side is
the one that is fractured. And in addition to that,
what makes it even more screwy is the fact that

(58:32):
the cartilage in the layernix is fractured as well. It's
not simply the highwaid. So you've got several things at
work here. Some people have talked about, well, at the
hues at it could have been ossified and it would
not have taken as much pressure, you know, with a

(58:52):
ligature if he had to sing tied around his neck,
and that you know, it essentially injured this area in
his neck. And I just I don't buy it. I
don't buy it, you know. I think even in judicial hanges,
you know where you know, you have these state sanctioned
hanes where people will fall from a great height and
it's calculated. You generally don't get fractured hyoids. It's so

(59:16):
high up in the throat, you have to reach so
high to do it that it's I'm not going to
say it's completely implausible, but if I were a betting man,
I would listen more towards something other than suicide.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Well, especially where the ligature mark is right. It's lower
on his neck than it than it.

Speaker 9 (59:36):
Is it is. And here's another thing that will really
blow people's hairback about the ligature mark and listen. This
stuff is all available online. CBS published this in their
sixty Minutes Report from so I think it's back in
eighteen or whenever it was. If you look at the
profile picture and when I say not like profile on

(59:57):
you know, social media, I'm talking about like in profile
sad shot.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
I'm looking at it right now.

Speaker 9 (01:00:01):
There's an image of Epstein laying laying flat on his
back in a soup time position, and you can see
the abraided area that runs from the front of the
neck all the way to the back. Look at that
very closely, as you can see that mark does not
go upwards. There's something in in in hangings that we

(01:00:24):
look for in forensics that's referred to as tinting feature
spelled T E N T I n G not like
T I like tinting in a window tinting like a
pup tint, So what you're looking at is the pup
tint going up in the air. It doesn't make sense,
it's right, Yeah, it runs parallel to the shoulder. Another

(01:00:48):
thing also that has that has bothered me about this.
He's got this pretty significant contusion at the at the
on the postier aspect of his neck. It's on the backside,
so the posterior involving like the shoulder right there, there's
you know, I don't know if it looks like I
don't have an exact measurement because I didn't I can't

(01:01:10):
remember if there's a scale on it, but approximation out there,
it looks like it's about too maybe two inches in
the greatest link by maybe about an inch and a
quarter and w what what's up with that? Because that's
the contusion. You know what that means. That means that
happened in live So it's not like a.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Post of some kind.

Speaker 9 (01:01:31):
Yeah maybe I mean perfect.

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
Folks who haven't seen it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
The ligature mark to me, Joseph, and I'm a leman,
Joseph's the expert. But to me, it looks like if
if this was his cause of death, like somebody from
behind him, because it goes straight across. There's not there's
no that tinting that you were talking about, like an assassin,
like an assassin right like.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Coming up.

Speaker 9 (01:01:56):
Right, yeah, groat or grot on, you know where you
hail for. But yeah, it kind of looks that way.
And the other thing is is that, you know the
the jailer's actually said, whatever the hell they call himself
jailer's correction, I don't care whatever you know they said.
The guy that discovered the body said, I cut the

(01:02:17):
noose off. Well, there was two ligatures, two tied nooses
on the floor in his cell, which, by the way,
the cell is like a pig style. It looks like
a hog waller. When you look at this thing, this
shredded material all over the wear, you know, all over
the place. You know, you always imagine, you know, shawshank
where the things are like really neat. It looks like

(01:02:38):
he's living. It looks like squalid conditions, mattresses on the floor,
there's pill bottles everywhere. It's chaos in there. If he
fell from a height to generate that kind of injury
on his neck, I don't think that there's sufficient there's
not enough altitude for him to have jumped from, even
if you think that he's perched from the top bunk,

(01:03:01):
which by the way, doesn't have a mattress on it,
jumped off of that and then fell to the floor
and snapped his neck or broke his hyoid, not snapped
his neck the vertebra or intact. It just doesn't. And
plus the material that you're talking about, both of those
those nooses quote unquote I'm using air quotes right now,

(01:03:22):
they show no evidence of tool marks on them where
they have quote unquote been cut. And this also factors
into the corrections officers being less than forthcoming or truthful
as well, because you got this person that discovers them
and says, yeah, you know, I cut it off of it. Well,
are you referring to these nooses that were pre tied,

(01:03:44):
that were laying on the floor. Is that what you're
talking about, because there's no evidence of that as far
as them being trimmed with a knife in any way.

Speaker 6 (01:03:50):
Interesting, So do you think when you said that the
and we don't have a ton of time, but of
course you will be joining us after, But so do
you think there is something off or odd about what
the correctional officers were saying, or that it didn't It
sounds like it didn't quite match up to the pictures.
If there's no cut marks on if I'm understanding you,

(01:04:12):
if there's no cut marks on any of the fabric,
then what were they cutting?

Speaker 9 (01:04:19):
Yeah, I think that that would be my big question.
If I was sitting across the table from them in
an interview and I had that evidence and they had
made that statement, I'd say, look, I want to revisit
your statement here, because what you're saying doesn't necessarily match
up with the physical evidence that we found at scene.
And that's a big piece of evidence because you know, listen,

(01:04:42):
the people that arrive on scene in a death investigation,
the first people that are eyes on the dead body
are your most crucial witnesses as far as understanding the
context of the body to the scene, because remember, he
would us removed from that cell and taken to the

(01:05:03):
hospital the emmy investigator, which they took pictures they were
out there. They didn't see his body at the scene.
They saw his body in the er.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:05:13):
Oh interesting, Well, listen, stick around. We have a lot
more we're going to be digging into, and we are
lucky enough to be doing it with forensic expert Joseph
Scott Morgan. Listen, we have questions for him. I'm sure
you do too. Give us a call. Eighty eight three
to one Crime. We are talking Jeffrey Ebstein. We are
talking forensics, and we are talking really whatever you want

(01:05:36):
to speak about crime wise. If you give us a call,
keep it here. True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
true crime all the time, and we have Joseph Scott Morgan,
our very own forensics expert who is joining us today. Listen,
very tan and really blowing our minds about the forensics
surrounding the Jeffrey Epstein bluruhaha, that's everywhere at this exact moment,
you know, really the question being, you know that the
company line has always been that he committed suicide in

(01:06:16):
his jail cell. And now that you know, Joseph, you're
looking at the forensics. There's nobody in the world we
trust more than you. You know this stuff. You've done
so many of these cases countless. Frankly, Number one, we
want to hear more. Number two, like we just want answers,
like girl hundreds of girls allegedly are being trafficked. And
this again is not a political thing. We're not trying
to point fingers, and it's just like it's just stinks

(01:06:39):
that we can't get answers and justice for these young women.
You know, we know that's true. So I digress. We
have a talkback right now, so we'll go to that first.

Speaker 9 (01:06:49):
What's up to you, cron tonight?

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
I just need to know in each of your opinions,
yes or no, did Epstein kill himself? This is body
and I'm going to say no, it's Stephanie, and I'm
going to say.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
No, Courtney, and I'm unclear.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
Oh safe, Joseph, what's your answer, Joseph. Scott Morgan, By
the way, what's your answer, Joseph, Based.

Speaker 9 (01:07:10):
Upon the scientific evidence and cases essen in the past,
this is not consistent with the suicide, and like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
What that means, we don't know who. We're not pointing
a finger, we're not suggesting that somebody came down from
a helicopter for me in the dead and night and
like assigning who. But it just sort of stinks that
it's not being discussed in its full transparency so that
you know, we can all weigh in and even if
we're wrong, you know, in court Ney Armstrong, you're really

(01:07:36):
quite right. How could it be clear? It's impossible for
it to be clear because we've heard so many different things,
right so I hear you.

Speaker 6 (01:07:42):
We have heard so many things, and I don't know
I was. I was really on the fence before this,
you know, statement of there is no client list when
we said it, of there the metadata of the video
that actually is inclining me way more towards something absolutely

(01:08:03):
nefarious happened. It does not make sense. I mean, it
doesn't just reek of a cover up. I mean will
be able soon to say as fact it is from
whom I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
But I I looked at metadata all my life, and
you know, metadata cop BYDK metadata doesn't lie and it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
Tell the official story that we're being told by the government.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
And that plus what Joseph has said about the forensics,
because I believe in science, That's what I believe in.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
That's my higher power, and I just I have to
trust the science behind this, and that's that he did
not kill himself.

Speaker 9 (01:08:39):
And like even the idea, no, I was just gonna say,
I take exception, you know, I'd mentioned this off air,
you know, I take exception to people that and the
news media has run with this because I think that
they're so used to doing it where they throw it
the term conspiracy theory. You know, we're not talking about

(01:09:00):
little green men. You know, we're not here on you know, uh,
you know, Coast to coast after dark or whatever. We're
we're not talking about that where you know, we're we
are talking about provable scientific findings and some things just
don't marry up. And it's not a conspiracy theory to

(01:09:21):
ask science based questions and to expect reasonable answers, you know, don't.
And and the thing about it is, I think for
so long, what's so frustrating about this is that everybody's
been led by the nose around about this whole thing.
And now they're saying, you know, ignore the man behind
the curtain now. And it's it's very frustrating. I can

(01:09:42):
understand why. Uh, it's bubbling over nationwide. It's not just
one little group of people, and it crosses the political aisles.
People are frustrated with this very much so, and it's
it's it's very very frustrating because those of us that
work in certain fields and we are counted on for

(01:10:05):
our scientific reliability. It leads down these really dangerous paths
where people begin to question scientific validity about other things
that you're involved in. It's not just the Epstein kickure.
It leads out right, that's problematic.

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
That's problematic because it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
Leads over to other issues and people stop believing in
the science and start believing rhetoric. Right, And that's not
a good place.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
And it's so funny you bring that up, Joseph, because listen,
we live in a divided time, right, there's there's there's
so many sides right now, and everybody's you know, doubling down.
I'm right, I'm right. You know, it seems as though
one thing we can collectively all agree on, despite your politics,
your religion, your your finances. Like everybody wants answers because

(01:10:50):
we all feel a little gas lit by this. And
it's not a one person stop, right, Like one person
being excused from their job doesn't change the bigger picture
of this seeming there's something fishy, right, and we're in
the there's something fishy business. And again we're not here
to say we have answers that we don't, but I

(01:11:11):
you know, I was really hoping that even by tonight
by air, we would have more clarity given to us.
And it doesn't appear that's coming.

Speaker 9 (01:11:21):
No, I don't know that that it is. I wouldn't
hold my breath. We've been holding our breath for a while.
And this is this is the you know, kind of
the ultimate screw you relative to you know what everybody's
kind of been waiting on and anticipating. Uh, very frustrated
and to another point too, And I know this is

(01:11:42):
something we can all agree on, is that we don't
like to see children abused, thank you. Exactly about it
is they they've become upon even furthermore than they were before.
And I've heard I've heard people try to adjust the ages. Now.
I've heard that that line of law in the news
media where they said, oh well, they were not underage,

(01:12:05):
they were just really young. And I've heard that stated
a couple of times, and I take exception with that,
particularly when you're hearing things these wild stories about girls
being brought in from Eastern Europe to service whoever this
cadret of people is. My question is is that they're
coming in from Eastern Europe? Where did they go exactly

(01:12:27):
where you know after they were used? Where did they go?
Where they just cut loose on the streets at Florida
or in Manhattan, or did they place them back on
a plane and take them back if we follow this
line of logic back to Eastern Europe, I don't know.
I would think that many of those girls have a
story to tell. I would think that there would be
an ambitious journalist out there that would want to track

(01:12:49):
some of these girls down and have conversations with them.
I don't know that. And there's so many of them allegedly,
it would seem as though you could find one. Where
are they? I want to know there's story?

Speaker 6 (01:13:00):
Well, and Lisa Bryant who was on earlier. It's not
particularly the women slash girls you're referring to Joseph, but
she had a Lisa Bryant had really compelling information from
speaking with the victims who participated in her documentaries Filthy
rich On, Jeffrey Ebstein and Guleen Maxwell.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
But it was yeah, what did happen?

Speaker 6 (01:13:24):
And there's mention of their having their passports taken and
these girls, even if they were of age, the sex
trafficking still happened. You are still taken and you were
a lured with the promise of in some cases a
summer camp to help further your potential to get into college.

Speaker 4 (01:13:42):
I mean, it's really what a.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
Bunch of saying that was done.

Speaker 9 (01:13:45):
My documentary by the way, absolutely donamite that Lisa, that
Lisa put together. Wat and I watched it, you know,
a couple of years back, and we were just, you know,
just astounded by it. It was beautifully found and it
was so the clarity on it was fantastic.

Speaker 4 (01:14:01):
I have to get I have to watch it. I
have to be honest.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
I never paid attention to the Epstein stuff because it
was so political and it was like, I just you know,
but now I'm sad, Like I am sad for this.
I am into it now and I'm I'm going to
watch it when we're done here.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
And it makes us mad, you know. And Joseph to
your point, everybody on you know, in this conversation, right
Joseph you at the leader, by the way, host of
body Bags. If you if you haven't listened to the podcast,
please do. It's you know, so well done. You know,
it's all victim forward, right, So you know at a
time that it's increasingly difficult to be able to actually

(01:14:36):
get victims to come forward. You know, we're seeing that
just on the heels of the ditty case, you know,
get and this, that and another thing. It's hard out there,
so you know, things like this only make it worse.
And I'm going to hold out some hope that when
we all wake up in the morning tomorrow, we turn
the news on and there'll be some developments. Because nobody

(01:14:59):
even said that they're needed to be a client list,
like we were told there was an Air Quotes client list.
Like it's just too confusing.

Speaker 4 (01:15:07):
Joseph, I have a question about the photos. That's senty minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
There's a photo of his back in the in the
I'm gonna describe it the back, it looks like there's
blood pulling in areas of his back. Is that what
that is?

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
It?

Speaker 4 (01:15:24):
Is that what you would expect to see? And what
does that tell you? How wal Yeah, I'm asking question.

Speaker 9 (01:15:32):
No, no, no, no, that's fine, and we need to
ask questions. Yeah, that's post worm liviidity, and that means
that if it's posterior, and the terms are kind of confusing,
post mortem lividity is posterior in this case, which means
on the backside. So gravity if you're laying face up,
let's just say face up, blood is going, it's a liquid,

(01:15:55):
it's going to see the lowest point of gravity. And
so we'll go there and there is of a time
measurement that we do for that. Now to your point,
when we have hangings, suspension hanging, and it can be
a partial we have suspension hangings, which is the classic
thing where somebody's hanging from a raptor and just hanging

(01:16:16):
in the air. Then you have partial support or partial
suspension where feet or knees are touching the ground. Did
you know that you'll actually have post moral avidity that
will set in in the ankles and in the knees,
and the knees and the ankles will swell because the
engorgement of gravity pulling down the blood. And I would

(01:16:37):
be interested to see the actual autopsy photographs to understand that,
because that will give you a lot of information about positionality.
When you're seeing those images of his body and you're
looking at the posterior, that's probably a shot that was
taken in the morgue. He's already been in a cooler way,

(01:17:00):
face face up, and a cooler for a period of time,
so lividity will settle. That's why you have to make
these judgments at the scene as soon as you can,
because all of the data is wrecked after you have
these time these markers out in tom you get beyond
those markers and the data, your data points are blown
to hell at that point.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
So these were taken hours later after he sat in
the cooler, probably, so these weren't like Onseen photographs that
were looking.

Speaker 9 (01:17:28):
At No, those were not on scene he was. He was.
As a matter fact, you look at one of those images,
you can see the paddle mark on his chest where
they try to do resuscitation. Yes, it's right, you can't.
It's right over stern them. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:40):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:17:41):
You're listening to True Crime tonight, where we talk true
crime all the time, and we're right in the middle
of talking with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert on the
alleged suicide of Jeffrey Epstein Court.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
You had you had a good question.

Speaker 6 (01:17:56):
Yes, okay, we do not have a lot of time,
but i have a lot of need to know the answer.
So I've been digging through all this information as we're talking,
flipping through papers. Among injuries that were found on Epstein
during the autopsy, contusions on both of his wrists and abrasion,
a bruise on his left forearm, and quote deep muscle

(01:18:16):
hemorrhaging in his left shoulder muscle. So I'm a lay person,
but is that consistent with suicidal hanging?

Speaker 9 (01:18:25):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
No, no period?

Speaker 9 (01:18:30):
Really and real quickly. I hope that they dissected each
one of those injuries because we can actually age those injuries.
We can say if they're resolving or not. I'm hoping
they did, you know, to try to again contextuals.

Speaker 4 (01:18:44):
Can we not get the autopsy report?

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Like?

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
Can is this foiable? I'm sure somebody has already.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
I don't think it is.

Speaker 9 (01:18:50):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
I want to say that for fact though, because I
don't think that it is.

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
Okay, well then we can foil it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna look into it, because that's crazy,
like not injury, pick your poison, choose your dad, choose
your night.

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):
My Funday Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Yeah, starting, we're doing a twenty four hour show. It's
a marathon and kids, we're just getting started. It's the
forensics off and you know, listen it's complicated stuff. Again,
I'm going to hold out hope that we have some
clarity is starting tomorrow. I'm hoping that someone out there

(01:19:28):
can move the needle, you know, for anyone connected to
this case, victims included. You know, our hearts genuinely are
with you, and we hope this doesn't discourage other victims
from from coming forward and speaking up because you know,
without your voice, you know, silence changes nothing, right, So
what a night I feel. Also, Lisa Bryant, thank you

(01:19:49):
for joining us for this. You know again, this one's
knocking on doors and you know, getting on yachts to
go to islands to get herself not killed, thank god.
But that's pretty gutsy stuff, and you know, hats off
in my humble opinion, as your friend and colleague, let's
knock it off with all that because we want you
safe and sound. But again, Lisa will be joining us
hopefully very soon too, to talk through any of these

(01:20:11):
new developments as they unfold, and we got a big
week ahead. So Joseph, you've been following so many cases
that we didn't even get to touch on tonight. The
Menanda's brothers too. We want your feedback on that one,
because there's a hearing coming up on that. I don't know,
we'll pick your poison anyone.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
I just I just I just can't believe I didn't
know all this stuff about you know that.

Speaker 4 (01:20:31):
I'm literally in kind of stunned.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
I've been I've been kind of sitting here all night
just kind of just like staring at Joseph talk and
listening to Lisa and just been transfixed because there's just
so many inconsistencies that I never paid attention to.

Speaker 4 (01:20:43):
Just I just didn't care about this case. I just didn't.
But man, I am really I'm really shocked.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Yeah, I mean it's shocking.

Speaker 4 (01:20:50):
It is shocking, and I.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
Think, yeah, I'm kind of just kind of speechless, and
I feel kind of silly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
Silly, You're the least silly person. You're still silly for not.

Speaker 9 (01:21:00):
It's confusing. It's confusing because it's so voluminous, so very voluminous,
and it has been made unnecessarily confusing and in some
monds intentionally that way. So and it shouldn't be. It
shouldn't be. This is pretty straightforward.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
Stuff, right, It's black and white, but it's not apparently well,
just like that. Another Sunday night comes to a close.
Listen up, everybody. We're wishing everybody a great start to
their week, happy Monday to be, so let's go and
you know, join forces. And also our hearts are with
Texas as always, so sending our love and prayers there.
It's been a great night, Thanks everybody. This is true

(01:21:37):
crime tonight. Good night, Stay safe.

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Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

All Episodes

Uncovering Epstein: Island, Autopsy, and the Missing Minute

Stuff You Should Know