Unpacking the Alleged Insulin Murder Trial and Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs’ Upcoming Sentencing

Matthew Russell Lee of Inner City Press joins to share his insider take on the Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs case ahead of his long-awaited sentencing. Plus, D4VD’s manager has broken his silence, a wrongfully convicted yogurt shop murder suspect seeks full exoneration, and the Epstein blackmail theory gains high-profile support. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and I head
up KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and
documentaries and I get to do those with Courtney Armstrong
and Body Move in. What to night, Ladies. We are
here for Thursday. As you all know, it is Thursday,
October second. We're so close to Friday and therefore so

(00:43):
close to the weekend.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
We hope you had a great weekend to be and
hope you had a great day. So listen. Diddy sentencing
is tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
There is so much to unpack tonight, so please pull
up a chair join our proverbial kitchen table conversation. Epstein
jaw dropping developments there as well. I mean, the dominoes
are starting to fall and they're not connected. Obviously Diddy
and Epstein are not connected, but there are some crossovers.

(01:14):
So we're going to be talking a bit about that.
In the Didty case, though, we of course, have back
Matthew Russell Lee from Inner City Press.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
He's been on the show before, following it so closely.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
He's so insider, so he's going to give us all
of the scoop, all of the predictions. And also later
in the show, we're going to be talking about this
ongoing trial of Sarah Hartsfield if you haven't been following that,
she's accused of murdering her fifth husband via insulin and
that's a complicated one, talk about toxicology, and of course

(01:47):
David the popstar.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
New developments in that case too.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
More people are speaking out, including his manager, so some
real tells to be had in that case. Also, welcome
to the show. Everybody, assume where should we begin? Courtney Armstrong,
I know you're kicking it off with all things, did
he Well.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
I mean you have to start there.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
This has been ongoing for a really long time and tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Ending tomorrow, right.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
Yeah, tomorrow is the sentencing. So did He has been
convicted of two federal prostitution charges, specifically it was transportation
of a prostitution and he was acquitted though of a
lot more serious charges, sex trafficking and racketeering counts.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
This happened? Did?

Speaker 4 (02:32):
He was indicted a year ago September twenty four He
was indicted on the racketeering, the sex trafficking, and the
Man Act counts. But after a two month trial, he
was acquitted of the big ones and he has remained
in custody this entire time. He and his attorneys requested
bail many, many times.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
And yeah, tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
He's up for Prosecutors are seeking a little more than
eleven years. The defense is proposing fourteen months, which conveniently
is what he has served.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
And that's a crazy distinction. He could walk tomorrow. He
could walk tomorrow.

Speaker 5 (03:08):
That's what I was just going to say, Like, it's
possible he can walk tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
And listen, are we going to make a prediction?

Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (03:13):
Or are we going to do that today? Yea, before
before the insider gets here. I want to make my
prediction because I don't want to be I don't want
to be swayed.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Sway.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
This is your He's very smart, right, he knows what's
going on. He's got his finger on the pulse. I
think did he's gonna walk?

Speaker 3 (03:27):
I think he's going to get another nine months? Go ahead?

Speaker 4 (03:31):
What not?

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah? Go ahead? I want to hear the what wait why.

Speaker 5 (03:34):
Okay, So I think he's gonna I think he's gonna
walk because, like, had this not been a federal case,
because of the rico implications, this would have been a
state charge and it would have been you know, fourteen
months or less.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, which is totally true. That's totally true.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
So had the rico charge has not ever been in
the game to begin with, he would have time served.
By the way, even in that case, maybe he's done
more than time served in maybe case is I that's
been disputed yet, but many people have said, listen, if
this was an average Joe, he would have done maybe
nine months, maybe eight months. And because he's Diddy and
it was so high profile and there were so many

(04:12):
other things, air quotes, distractions thrown at this case that
he would have walked by. Now, the other side of
that is he's done some nefarious things and maybe there
was some overcharging from the federal government. Remember there's a
new prosecutor in line, Maureen Comy, daughter of James Comy,

(04:32):
who was also recently indicted by Trump, had a daughter.
The daughter was the prosecutor in the previous Ditty trial. Also, interestingly,
in the Epstein trial. Back in the day she was
set to be the prosecutor. Had Epstein lived and not
died by suicide allegedly allegedly allegedly, So she's been tossed

(04:53):
and replaced, and now eleven years is what the prosecution
asking for. That's also a bit strong, you know, Courtney,
you were saying earlier.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
Yeah, so okay, body just to get a straight body.
You say, he walks tomorrow. That's my listen, that's that's
your prediction. No, just that's my night on the prediction.
Nice and Stephanie, you you suggested nine more months, a
few more months, a few more months. What do you
think I'm going eleven years? I'm going eleven years? Why
speak because of the judge's rulings. So, Judge Zumernian, I mean,

(05:27):
the defense came at them so many times. That's trying
to get him out, including they submitted a really aggressive
package saying fifty million dollars did he will be on
house arrest in Miami, there will be no.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Travel, but the judge rejected that.

Speaker 4 (05:42):
As one of the many times, saying that he was
a risk, and he did he had no exceptional circumstances
and in one of the other requests. They said, he
has not shown clear evidence that he does not pose
a danger to persons in the community. And then as well,
the defense said, hey, how about we just quit this

(06:04):
whole thing or go for a new trial. The judge
has denied everything and last thing I'll say, including the
defense made a really aggressive I thought, showing of why
Mia who used a pseudonym to testify, why she shouldn't
be able to give victim's impact statement, and the judge
overturned that.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
So I say eleven and you know what, near I'm strong. Listen,
I hope that you're correct. I'm saying my vote based
on what I think will happen versus what I feel
should happen.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (06:35):
So I actually am saying under a year for all
the same reasons you just noted. Because the judge has
been so stern and so clear and has been, you know,
less than lenient. That also, strategy wise, may give a
little leniency tomorrow. Prosecution is asking for eleven years, you know. Obviously,

(06:57):
the defense is asking let's go home tonight, could be
home for the weekend. Somewhere in the middle might be
the fair ground, or somewhere around a year or under,
and then nobody can accuse the judge of a cake
walk because he has been so fair and frankly strong
this whole time. It's a tough one. This is a

(07:17):
tough one. I can't wait to talk about.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
It more though.

Speaker 5 (07:19):
Okay, well, we're going to talk about it with the expert.
Basically right now. This is true crime tonight on iHeart
Radio on Body Moving and I'm here with Courtney and Stephanie.
We're talking the latest with p Diddy, and we want
to hear from you. Hit us up on the talkbacks
on the iHeartRadio app and listen. Right now. We're joined
by a very very special guest, Matthew Russell Lee. He's
with Inner City Press since twenty eighteen. Matthew has reported

(07:41):
in person on cases at the US District Court for
the Southern District of New York. That's a mouthful, by
the way, for Inner City Press. He's been following the
Ditty case literally since day one. He's been there nearly
every day every day there's court. He's been there at
the recent hearings and from the beginning. Wilson on how
things have been going and what may happen tomorrow. He's

(08:03):
got some real insider information. Matthew, thank you so much
for joining us.

Speaker 7 (08:08):
Hi that you all right. I'm glad to be here.
It's been a long it's been a long road, and
I've want to begin by saying it's the scuttle but
here is that it may not actually finish tomorrow. That's
not true. But if you've seen I'm saying that people
that actually work in the courthouse have been told to
be ready for more than one day sentencing. And I

(08:28):
think if you look at today's filings where the team
Diddy says they're going to have four separate lawyers talking
and they're preparing a movie that they're going to show,
and there's obviously there's been a fight about me. But
again I'm hoping that's not the case. But I'll say
that I've been hearing that I don't particularly like it.
I also think it's too much. The defense has they
put in a filing today sixty pages a kind of

(08:50):
reply sentencing reply. I haven't seen this kind it's I mean, again,
I'm sure he wants to. You know, your life is
on the line. You want to do everything that you can,
but most judges don't allow a sixty page filing on
the eve of sentencing, or if they do, they say, okay,
we're going to adjourn sentencing so that the other side
has a time, you know, has a chance to respond,

(09:12):
or so I have a chance to read it. They
really went in strong, and I guess the big I heard.
I was listening actually before this segment to you guys predictions.
I don't know if I'm going to make a prediction,
but i'll say it. Of interest is the fact that
that Judge Subramanian is going out of his way to
let the Clones team do whatever they wanted sentencing, Like
he could easily say one hour each side that I'm ruling. Instead,

(09:36):
it's like, how many lawyers do you want to talk for?
I don't think normally that's not what happens normally, even
if you have even if you're an affluent defendant with
four lawyers, there are many judges that say only one
one's going to speak, no tag teaming. But this is
going to be a four way team. So either Subermanian
is setting them up by saying basically he's going to

(09:56):
hammer them, as I heard one and he wants to
to have no complaint about how they were treated and
what they were allowed to say, or he's actually, you know,
very attuned to them. I don't know if I'm willing
to make a prediction on that, but I'll say this
is out of the norm that you would have forced
for lawyers speaking for you at sentencing and show a
movie that's usually not done. I don't know, we haven't.

(10:21):
I was, actually I was. I mean, obviously there's a
lot of film that involved in this case, but I
don't it's his movie, so I don't think it's going
to be you know, greatest hits at the hotel nights.
I think it's I.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Don't know either.

Speaker 7 (10:33):
I mean, he's put in a series of letters from
people that did he has, you know, and to be
in all you know fairness that that he's worked with
during his time in the MDC, some little known inmates
saying that the program has been really helpful, some big
he has. There's a there's a relatively high profile at
least to some defendant there called called Miles Glow. He's

(10:53):
an opponent of the Chinese government, but he also was
you know, charged with crypto swindling of people. He wrote
a letter, so I posted a letter as soon as
it was in. I've gotten a lot of pushback from
people that are either pro Miles Glow or anti Miles Glow,
and they want to know if Glow is coming to
this ended thing. But the question is, I don't know
if Brian Steele, who's been the lawyer of filing these letters,

(11:14):
was able to go and film people with testimonials from
the NBC, or whether it's going to be a kind
of composite of like good Times at bad Boy Records
and Block Party at Star Island. Nobody knows what it is.
Only late in the day did Subermanian say, finish it
and give the government a copy. By five pm, it
hasn't gone into the docket, So I guess we'll find

(11:36):
out tomorrow it's sentencing when they screen the film.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
From a strategy perspective, I'm just going to go on
a limb here.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
I am not a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
However, it does seem as though the judge has been
so fair. If I know that I'm not going to
let them walk, don't you or not want to show
that hand by letting the defense go and shut them down,
because then it would look like I was an open
minded So as a judge.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Your job is to be open minded.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
So yeah, let them sing in dance, Let them show
me a high school play of Diddy in his greatness.
Let them show me a movie of Raisin in the
Sun that he started at one point that way, when
I dropped the hammer, No one can say I was
being biased or I didn't let the defense have their moment.
By the way, where is did he getting all this
money at this point? So he has this superstar defense team.

(12:27):
He's throwing all the money at the world. A defense
team has to defend, right, So they're all taking center stage.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
It's the best press tour any legal team could ever do.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
So the fact that they're taking so much time I
find I guys kind of find it confusing.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
I guess yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:43):
No.

Speaker 7 (12:43):
One of his lawyers in particular, I mean Mark Agnifolo
obviously is a big and he and his wife are
representing Luigi Mangione Mangioni. But Alexander Shapiro has She was
already a well known kind of appellet lawyer around here,
but since that she's been She was hired by Charlie Javis,
the fintech frauds defraudster of JP Morgan Chase. She's been

(13:04):
hired by the Alexander brothers, who are these real estate
you know, three brothers and they might even be twins
or triplets. Yeah, they're in the MDC as well. They've
been brought up to New York for trial and she's
representing them. She's actually been brought into the Blake Lively
justin Baldoni case, so she's definitely parlayed, parlayed this. She's

(13:27):
the one that signed the sixty page filing tonight, so
she works hard. But I agree, I think I honestly,
in the interest of sort of even for news value,
that it all be done in one day, he's letting
them go too far. I think I think he could
even signal his fairness saying you can have two lawyers,
you know, or right, but four lawyers and a movie
is too much.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
I think That's why I feel I might be pretty
foolish for my prediction and of letting walk.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
But no, I thought that three days ago.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
I'm feeling honest I or even last week, I was like,
this guy's going to be home by Saturday, no qu question,
no question, no question. I'd be curious, and I know
we're running tight on time. Until the next segment, and
that Matthew, thank goodness you're with us. I'm really curious
about the victim impact statements that are expected and some
of the letters, for example by Cassie Ventura, his ex girlfriend,

(14:15):
who of course took center stage nine months pregnant. We
saw the video of her abuse. She's written a letter
to the judge. That's now, you know, we've all seen it.
Curious your take on that you're staying with us right
for the next yeah segment, We're holding you hostage.

Speaker 5 (14:31):
We're gonna hold Matthew hostage because we have a lot
to dig into with Diddy, and he's got all the
insight that we need, especially me, the foolish one who
just said he's probably gonna work.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
No, you're not foolish. You're the smartest in the room.
I did.

Speaker 5 (14:47):
I didn't want to be swayed by smart Matthew, you know,
like he knows what's going on. I didn't want to
be sway and I'm gonna stick by my prediction more
with Matthew Russey Lee. When we come back, we're going
to be hearing about all the insider information he's got.
And later singer David Manager speaking out for the first
time about victims Celestrie Us, you might be surprised by
what he say.

Speaker 8 (15:05):
Keep it right here at True Crime tonight, Matthew.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
What do you think so the impact statements and some
of these victims that want to speak tomorrow at the
hearing to kind of counterbalance his you know, self proclaimed
movie that did he is making on his behalf and
the many people speaking for him, including his four lawyers.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
What do you make of the impact statements?

Speaker 7 (15:39):
Yeah, no, I mean the first thing that jumped out
of me is that Jane didn't write one, not to
you know, to she was one of the one of
the witnesses that did show up, and the fact, I
don't know, you know again, it may have been that
she was left with a bad taste from melt from
the trial, but it was since Mia did and Cassie did,
and in fact even a witness that they said they
were going to put on the stand but never did,

(16:00):
Chef's Jordawn. I'm actually put in put in a letter.
I could imagine the defense just to get in terms
of them. They're going to say, you know, if you
didn't testify it, if you could have testified a trial
and did it. It's kind of putting in a letter
that can't be cross examined. Is I don't know how
much weight the judge is going to give that, And
he's also already heard the stories of Cassie and Mia.

(16:22):
I think that honestly. You may have seen that the
comb side got a letter from Gina saying let him go,
let him come home. So that's she had been. She
was named as one of the victims in the indictment
and for a long time during yeah, it was exactly
she was the girlfriend slash. I don't know what word
we're supposed to use for it, but she played the

(16:43):
same role that Cassie had played that Jane had played afterwards,
sometimes simultaneously. But she decided to write a letter of support.
So I guess I'm saying it as best I can
make out. The fact that the that the government wrote
in to say Mia wants to speak implies that nobody
else is speaking. I mean in terms of I've heard
people say there's going to be all these victim impact statements,
but I don't think Assie's going to speak, don't I

(17:06):
wish she.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Though, But think about it, like if I'm Jane Doe
and I sat on that stand as a single mother
who admitted that I was basically being kept in exchange
for these horrible freak offs, and that I wanted out
of this circus. I was afraid that this tape would
be released and my life would be over and and
and and there's been such backlash and such as zero

(17:27):
in terms of support for victims.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Why would she put herself out there one more time?
I know it so stings. It's hard.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
And also for me to come forward, I say, you know,
that takes a lot of courage anybody who's putting themselves
out there right now on the front line. Let's be honest,
if did he walk tomorrow there, they're very well likely
could be a retribution tour like no other, right I would.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
I wouldn't tell my sister too.

Speaker 7 (17:54):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, both of them, they were the ones.
Also the fact that they went anonymous, even though it
was quite to in the case of Jane in particular
because a certain other musician was tweeting all the time
or instagramming all the time about who she was very
difficult to not know. But yeah, both of them faced
back last of the time. So I give I'm not
saying that she should have or she shouldn't. I'm just

(18:15):
saying kind of in terms of the victim impact statements.
Normally I've covered cases here where you know, it's just
people one after another saying, you know, he destroyed my life,
he's terrible. You know, you don't the fact that there's
sort of one of the witnesses missing, and that he
got the letter from Gina, even on whatever terms that
was gotten, I think that they're kind of a wash.
It's not as sort of as clear cut a victim

(18:37):
presentation as it might have been. I want to actually
sort of state this is all kind of twenty twenty.
But I'm also covering all the many, many civil lawsuits
against Sean Combe, both here and in the Southern District
and elsewhere. And I'm sure some of them are kind
of cookie cutter in falls, but if any of them
are to be believed, it seems to me like the

(18:57):
prosecutors they could have put on a much longer case, right,
They could have gone out and found, you know, vetted
all those people and found there are people that were
almost you know, strangers, they weren't caught up in this
escort and quote unquote girlfriend situation, but were just went
to ditty parties and ended up limping home. There seems

(19:18):
to be many people saying that, and they it seems
very consistent. They say that they were drugged and that
that sometimes it was Combs. Some of them go, you know,
say that name other big names. But either that's all
false or the prosecutors I think screwed up here, because
if in fact, this was an abusive enterprise in which
people that wanted, you know, a chance in the music

(19:38):
industry were getting ripped torn up literally, Yeah, to focus
on this kind of you know, very troubling, very kind
of netflixy freak off nights thing, it didn't work for them, right,
it really didn't work. Basically, the Rico thing was turned
down and they're left with this charge that the defense
is making fun of, which is basically, you know, fly

(20:00):
tying people to have sex on camera. And they've said,
and the defense has said, and it's it's not a
bad argument. How is this different than a pornography company
flying actors to LA to have sex on camera?

Speaker 3 (20:12):
And can I jump in on that?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, just to say, to add to that, I'm sorry
to cut you off, but even just to add to that,
because I hear that so well, and I feel like I,
now that we've had a couple of months since we've
been covering this case so intensely, I really wanted to
look at it with fresh eyes, not emotionally speaking, like
not getting lost in the sauce and what is and
what isn't. The thing that does seem like, at its

(20:34):
core confusing to me is if he was taking video
of his girlfriend doing freak offs or anybody in his
world put in compromising sexual drug fueled you know, places,
which even his defense attorney says, well, this is a
case of sex, drugs and rock and roll. So let's
assume it's a consensual sex drug fueled relationship and he's

(20:58):
videotaping it. But then he's using that videotape is blackmail,
you know. Cassie Venture's testimony would suggest that he was saying,
I'm going to send tapes to your mom's employers and
she's going to get fired. Oh and hey, by the way,
you're so talented, had such a great hit record. No
more of that coming up, because I'm going to blackmail
you and you're never going to work again. That seems

(21:18):
to be like a through line here and that doesn't
seem to get much play, Like how is that not
a big piece of his puzzle because he wasn't convicted
of that, right, but the prostitution piece of it. He
wasn't distributing prostitution, but like the prostitution plus the add
on of the black if you want to do prostitution
or whatever, who cares?

Speaker 5 (21:38):
Right?

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Like I personally don't, I should say many people do.
I personally am like, live your life. It's not my business.
I'm staying out of it. But when you're hold against
your will or it's violent, or you're really asking for
a way out of this and you can't get out
of it, and you're being threatened by tapes that you're on,
he's not. He's the one video taping in in the

(22:00):
corner like a weirdo.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
But even if you.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Consented to that at some point, the fact that it's
being used against you, which is why you therefore can't
leave that to me, is the loop that that's where
I get stuck on this case.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
I really do.

Speaker 7 (22:13):
Yeah, it's like a revie. I mean, honestly, maybe they
should have had a different charge of like, you know,
I don't know how to carrot but it's like revenge porn,
right exactly. Revenge porn is not covered by the First Amendment.
You filmed it, but then you use it to control somebody,
you can get charged with that. But again it again,
I don't like to play twenty twenty with them, but
really it seems to me that they I mean, it
was the same thing in the Glene Maxwell trial where clearly,

(22:35):
as you guys are, I'm sure I'm going to discuss
later today. I mean the Epstein enterprise with Gallaine Maxwell.
You know, procuring for it was extensive, but when they
put on the trial here, they really focused on a
very you know, a small number of victims. They wanted
to paint a very detailed but limited picture. In that case,
it worked out and they got twenty years against Glaine Maxwell.
But here they chose sort of like a very kind

(22:58):
of kind of minimalistic, not minimalistic, but they only chose
one side of what it seems clombs us up to
and the main gist of it didn't work for them.
So now they sort of have to eat it because
it is true, like if you look at what other
sentences for for Man Act convictions have been, they're they're
they're they're not that high and there's a lot of
atmospherics around it, and it's true. I mean, I guess

(23:20):
that's maybe why the sentence is going to go along,
as they're going to try to get into exactly that
that beyond the filming, there was the threatening on the plane.
There were all these other things going on. But hanging
over all of it is that most of those charges
didn't stick. Like the attempt to get all of that
evidence in was to paint this picture of a conspiracy
and get them to bite at it. And the jury said, no.

Speaker 6 (23:42):
Right, that's right.

Speaker 7 (23:44):
How much time you can you get for flying professional male?
You know, jigglows to have sex and he's saying that
the you know that that that both Cassie and later
Jane are you know, we're we're making the travel arrangements,
having input on which which esquor would go. I mean,
I sort of like I think that they know it's
the prosecution's fault. There was a lot more going on,

(24:06):
but this was the story that they painted, and now
they're left with really a very very kind of thin
version of the story.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah, it's a real.

Speaker 7 (24:15):
Odd clensed them. They can't do it again. It can't
you know, they can't bring the case again. I think
what they I mean, I think maybe they'll learn, like
this Alexander Brothers case, hopefully they'll learning this to not
just choose no matter how good they may seem, no
matter how good they are, not good, but like how
compelling and how outrageous what happened to three individuals are.
If you're saying that there's dozens of victims, try to

(24:37):
put dozens of victims on the stand, because then you're
gonna have the juris even if there's one they didn't like,
or one talks about not getting an expensive enough purse
or not going to a fancy enough restaurant and they
don't like that when you got ten others, But when
you only have three and they didn't like one of them,
maybe they didn't like two of them.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, that's a really good That is a very excellent point,
well observed. I have a quick question for you, Matthew,
and if anyone else does give us a call R
at eighty to eight three one crime. We have Matthew
Russell Lee from Inner City Press and we are talking Diddy.
He's facing sentencing tomorrow. What is your prediction. Give us
a call, Matthew. So curious what has been sort of

(25:17):
the general atmosphere like leading up just in these last
couple of days.

Speaker 7 (25:22):
I can tell you that not just tonight, but last
night there were tents outside of people waiting in line
to attend tomorrow. The people that work in the courthouse
are all like they pretty much can't wait for the
whole thing to be over.

Speaker 5 (25:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (25:35):
Yeah, they're tense because the people wait outside. Some of
them are line sitters, like they're going to There are
some major media organizations are paying big money to come
tomorrow morning and pay somebody for having slept out there
all night. This is a New York thing. It happened
during the Trump trial. It happens. It happened to pop
up shops. It's happened more. And they've already put out
the barricade. So it has the circus like atmosphere that

(25:57):
exists during the trial has come back. And in fact
it was last week. Was that. I mean, there hasn't
been really many many appearances. It's been all in the papers,
except that last Thursday there was an oral argument on
Combs's motions for acquittal or for a new trial, and
that was. That was you know, there were people waited
in line to get there, and Combs came in that day.

(26:17):
He'd asked in advance, but all sort of at the
last minute, whether he could wear you know, non jail garb.
It doesn't really there's not a jury, so it doesn't.
During the trial, of course, he wore like, you know,
a sweater. He tried to look like mister Rogers, but
he came. He didn't work. He was in jail tomorrow.
He's going to be in a button down shirt. They
asked in advance and pointed out other defendants who've been

(26:39):
allowed to do it for their own, for their own,
you know, sense of sell for whatever. I think Supermanian
knows the goal of putting the defendants in street cloths.
So if the jurors don't know the person's incarcerated during
the trial, that they don't come to know it, even
though there are two you know, suited, large gentlemen behind
the sitting right behind them. You know, if you know,
you know, but if you don't, you know, there's no

(27:00):
reason to rub it in. But so I guess it's
been the I will say, I don't know. I think
it's hard to know, you know, people in the media
love the more filings the better. I've found that I've
found their approach kind of there's a sense of entitlement
to it or it's disappointing because there I just covered
a sentencing today where a guy got fifteen years and
there was nobody, you know, nobody in the room and

(27:21):
the whole thing was over in an hour.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
So that's the influence and power part.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, Like that's the whole part of like him being diddy, right, Like,
that's the whole piece of it. By the way, one thing, Matthew,
and you're going.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
To come back, I know you will.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
But another piece of this that I feel like it's
less a little bit left out of the story. We
remember he also was paying people off to cover stuff off.
Now again he wasn't tried for the racketeering stuff, but
we saw him paying off officials and like the security
people out there at the hotel where Cassie was being beaten.
Two people and what was it, one hundred grand somebody

(27:54):
took to have that video tape disappear. Shout out to
the one security guy Israel who did not take the
money and testified.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
So yeah, I guess that's a confusing thing.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
It's sentencing versus some of the other stuff that we've
all publicly seen, and where.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
He can only get sentenced for what he was convicted on.

Speaker 5 (28:12):
Of course, I know that it's hard to turn they
find me guilty of those things, right, because that was
I think the government was just too overbroad in there
in their charges.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
I really think it's so fair.

Speaker 5 (28:22):
That's just my opinion. That's just my opinion. I think
this could have been small.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Yeah, right, actually wrapping up commercials cometh. But listen, Matthew.
We love having you on so much. Your insight is
always so great. It's like being in the courtroom ourselves. Everyone, listen,
follow Matthew. He's on X at Inner City Press. You
will get all the latest in the sentencing of Shan
Didy Combs and everything else, and also Matthew's book Did

(28:52):
He Do It Us Versus Sean Combs. It's available on Amazon. Matthew,
I believe you have promised to come back again.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
He has to, yes, so we will tie.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
Him to it and I actually I can't wait to
get into the civil lawsuits.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
With him as well.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Listen, Diddy is getting sentenced tomorrow and apparently, according to Matthew,
was sharing a little movie that he's produced from behind Mars.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
What I'm popping popcorn already.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
I mean just the montage I'm seeing of him giving
out gifts and making a wish.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
For cars, going to church all day long.

Speaker 4 (29:35):
I want to see nothing but this movie.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
That is the rumor.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
It is not an original thought, but you know, there
is a tangled web around Diddy.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
So like the ands and the ANNs and the ads
and the ans.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Remember when we started this case with Diddy, there was
so much chatter about the celebrities that we're going to
start showing up to talk against him, right. We were
also going to exhume his ex wife, Kim Porter's body,
because she allegedly was going to tell a tell all.
And then she died mysteriously in her sleep for she
had some disease that nobody knew about and maybe that

(30:15):
was suspicious. And and there was gonna be Justin Bieber
in this one, and there's gonna be all of these
celebrities in JLO and it.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Was Mum, Mum's the word on any of it.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Now, Also nobody spoke up for him. I also think
the silence also says a lot. This is a tough
spot to be in if you're a celebrity and it's
big business and you're a brand and your business is
you and you are the brand which is a big
money maker.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Are you going to really come out and say, h,
I had.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
A weird experience with Ditty or I had a great
experience with Ditty.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
I don't know. We don't know because no one said anything.
We didn't hear a word. Where was Jlo.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
Well, Mila Kunis and Ashton Putcher that did not be
very well when they spoke, wrote letters of offensive Danny Masterson,
I'm sure so. Danny Masterson, he was charged or he
was convicted of rape.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
He was convicted.

Speaker 5 (31:11):
He's in jail right now, he's in prison.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
So if you don't know that case, yes, Danny Masterson
from that seventies show that he appeared on with Mila
Kunez and Ashton Kutcher.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
So there were buds. They grew up together, right.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
So now two years later Masterson is accused and then
convicted of rape and then his you know, childhood buddies,
Ashton Emila write a letter to the judge saying he's
really a good guy.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
We know a certain side of him, and.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
They got a ton of backlash, like go away, like
that was like a hard no on that front. And
by the way, that's what's so interesting, And I'm curious
what you guys think about it. And by the way,
if anybody wants to jump in on the convo eight
eight eight to three one crime or leave us a
talk back, what do you do in that situation? Because
both things can be true. This is the only thing
I know in life and certainly working in this job,

(32:00):
is that both things can be true.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Like somebody can be.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Really devoted and a really good friend and a really
great loved one and also be horrible in another scenario.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
We know, we've seen it.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
We've talked to family members of serial killers and loved
ones of people who have done fact horrible, hideous things
that nobody could imagine. Yet in their purview, in their perspective.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
They were great. They were like a beautiful.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Dad and were there every day and like at their
beck and call. Like, both things actually can be true
in some circumstances. So if you have a friend who's
accused of something hideous, like Diddy is being accused of
or you see him on video doing something so horrendous
like beating poor Cassie to the ground the way he did.
But yet you had like a good experience with him.

(32:49):
Does that count? And like do you speak up for
your buddy when you know that? Like, what do you
do in that scenario? I don't do anything. I don't
write a letter, not for Danny Masterson, not for him. No, absolutely,
I know, And like where's the line, Like I like
to think that.

Speaker 5 (33:06):
I mean, it's not my brother, He's like he's a
friend of somebody I used to work with, according to
Ashton and Mila right like me, they're not like, he's
not my brother. I worked with him on a TV show.
I don't write a letter defending him.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
She worked with him since she's like thirteen years old.
I do believe that it was a strong and.

Speaker 5 (33:24):
I'm sure important. Still not something I would do, like
me personally, absolutely not, no way.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
I wonder what they would say too, Like having done
that and they got so much backlash for sticking up
for their buddy who was being charged with something very nefarious,
would they do that again? Like there's no way to win. Really,
in some cases, if you stand up for somebody, you
get backlash. And if you look the other way, you
get backlash.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
I don't know. I'm justsgrateful I haven't been in that spot.
I don't even care about the backlash. It's me personally.

Speaker 5 (33:54):
I sure not feel good about defending somebody that was
convicted of crime such as Danny.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
That's personal.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
It's so true. I feel that way too. I'm going
to stand behind you on that and I agree, Yeah, Court,
what do you think?

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, it's a really top.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Judgmental though either neither of you are. By the way, Yeah,
I would say if I did something really bad and
I know I didn't do it.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
If I didn't do.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
It, let's just go there for starters, it was a
crime I didn't commit, period the end exclamation point. But
there's like a lot of things that would suggest otherwise.
I know that there are people in my life, and
I like to think you guys included, that would say
I buy it. I believe you because I know you enough,
or like my brothers would go to the death, you know,
like my mom would go to the dinner.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
That's a hard spot to put somebody in.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
But you know, the whole both things being true, because
I suffer from this a little bit in my personal
life in that if you know friend A and friend B,
they don't like each other, it's an enemy. But me
in person B have a perfectly good relationship. You know,
persone wants me to hate that person. I'm like, well,
I've had nothing but good experiences with them. I understand

(34:59):
that you you have not, and that can be hard
to reconcile.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, you can't gang decide who's getting kicks out of
the club, but you know that's different, right, But that's
a real spot that's indifferent. I think I think you're
kind of I can't say it out lad, but what
we used to call you at work tough something, because
she's like very down the line cookie. She's a tough cookie.
Like no one's really bsing Courtney, you.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Know what I mean. Like I would be like, oh
my god, that person seems amazing.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
They're so nice and they're so smart and they're so kind,
and this one tough cookie would be like, really, they
seem like a clown.

Speaker 5 (35:31):
And there were always a clown speaking of Like, since
we're on the top the subject of like celebrity gossip
and crime and all that, did you guys hear about
the Raja thing?

Speaker 3 (35:39):
Oh, the Kardashians talking about this yet.

Speaker 5 (35:42):
I know last week last week he was on his
Twist channel and he said that he allegedly falsely declared
to like all of his you know followers, that a
federal racketeering investigation had been launched into the Kardashians, and
he said that they were getting charged with adroal Rico.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
So because we're.

Speaker 5 (36:01):
Talking about Diddy and all, the kind of like tells
me do that, right, like this common thread that we
were kind of just talking about right well today or
yesterday I think actually they filed a lawsuit against him
and he was kind of going through it on his
Twitch channel today. It all happened like in front of
our eyes.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
And Stephanie, I know you are like obsessed with all
this stuff, right, what do you feel?

Speaker 2 (36:22):
I was like a huge car I am a huge
Kardashians fan. I've seen every episode to nauseum. I could
probably do a baby Sandy EFG.

Speaker 9 (36:30):
I have to go. That's like my favorite ornumber. All
I want to do is eat a salad and Kim.
People are dying for any reason.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I really did like I wanted to be a Kardashian
adjacent like on their little family parties, Like.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
I just liked the show. I've seen it a lot.
Now they don't play it as much.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
On E I can assure you that Stephanie really really
enjoys the Kardashians because over the years, it's interesting. I was,
actually I was at each True Hollywood story when the
tape dropped, and I.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Literally remember when it came in.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
It was like someone was bringing in a block of
gold or a diamond, and like what the tape like
all of the before.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
For those that don't know, he's the guy that was
in the infamous sex tape with Kim Kardashian, and many
argue that it's basically why they were the Kardashians today, right,
like it was planted, it was all planned, and you know,
it got her a lot of attention, and they became
the Kardashians because of the sex tape. Right, that's kind
of like.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
The lore and that is exactly right. I entered a
little bit later.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
So Kim Kardashian was like buds with Paris Hilton or
was her right right, right right?

Speaker 3 (37:43):
She did her wardrobe or something weird like some Herba.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Wood Beverly Hills stylists kind of Yeah, like, I don't know,
something that I was not a part of. And then
they went on to beat the Kardashians, and that I
thought was riotous. I've never had a sister. I just
thought they were so cute and clever. And eventually, as
you know Courtney in body as you're mentioning ray J,
who was like a performer and a rapper I.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
Believe, right and pop star of sorts.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
IP story, Yeah, he had a sex tape with Kim
Kardashian that was released to the press and it was
scandalous and it was everywhere. And later we find out allegedly,
allegedly allegedly that it was mom Kim Kardashian, a mom
Chris Kardashian rather Kim's mother that was like in kahoots
and organized the release of said tape. Wow, and that

(38:28):
everybody kind of made a buck on it. I don't
know if that's true or not. That was always the allegation,
and I don't know. Let's put that away for a second,
because that my Kardashian. So now go years and years
and years that Kardashian's become superstars, and you know, at
some point Kanye on the this is I know.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
This only from watching the show.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
At some point, Kanye gets the tape back from wherever
the tape was and gives it back to Kim because
like he wants her to be free from the scandal
of knowing there's a sex tape out there, and it
all was very heartwarming.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
And then I love you so much, your central soccer,
I love you, dearly.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
That warmed your heart that it says more.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
About me than it does about that. What about I
totally recognize. So now cut to years and years later,
ray J, the star of the said tape, is like,
I was being blackmailed by the Kardashians, and therefore I
am giving federal charges, the same charges that Diddy was
first accused of.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Rico federal charges.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
To show that I was the victim in a very
large way of blackmail racketeering in the land of Kardashianville. Now,
remember Kardashians were linked in the early days when this
trial first started to Ditty. You know, they played with him,
they partied with him. They like, there's tape of him
being like, oh that party last night was crazy?

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Does that mean anything? I have no idea?

Speaker 2 (39:51):
And now ray J speaking out he was nuts on
Twitch and he was.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Very serious, very serious.

Speaker 5 (39:58):
He kept saying, like the rain is coming, like he's
doubling down because he said he said on this live
stream in September last week, actually September, not that long ago.
It was like last night he said, the Federal Rico
I'm about to drop on Chris and Kim is about
to be crazy. The Feds are coming, That's what he said.
And then he doubled down today and he was like
it's coming, the rain is coming, like he's doubling down

(40:21):
on this. And Chris so, Chris, Kim's mom manager and
Kim Kardashian filed a defamation suit against him because of
all this.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yes, but don't you think at some point j needs
some cash and the Kardashians medication.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, but he needs medication.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
I'm confused, Actually, so is he saying he was blackmailed
by the Kardashians because of the tape or something.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
I think it was something separate.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's like something
there's some other thing that's the blackmail, and that it's
RICO and that Chris Kardashians like the center of like
this huge RICO operation. Wait, I have no knowledge. I
have never met a Kardashian. I love them from a distance.
It got me through COVID, so welcome. And by the way,

(41:12):
I wish it was on more on E because I'm
stuck with my below deck, which I.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Know you love.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
I'm sorry I'm saying it out loud. There we go,
but like I follow along, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
They have my heart.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
However, ray J is not having it. And then I
don't know, Chris Kardashian slapped him with a bit of
a defamation lawsuit.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Kanye is not talking. They slapped him.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Probably they had that whole movie of Kanye being, you know,
having a.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Split in his bipolar x x X. I don't know.
I wouldn't go up against the Kardashians unless.

Speaker 5 (41:41):
You usually have the goods. He's been pretty vague about
the accusations too. They're really broad.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
He he just keeps saying like.

Speaker 5 (41:48):
This is going to be worse than Diddy, and the
Feds are coming and his blackmail claims are you know,
just he's not like being specific in nature, right.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Yeah, he's like hosting the TMZ like fun Bust.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
Documentary thing, so like he's.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Like literally the host on the bus if you like,
buy a ticket to go on the TMZ tour. And that's,
by the way, I'm not being degrading on that.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
You love that you think I knew it. I knew it.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
It's the first thing I take anybody who visits in
La to I go to the TMZ tour.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
So maybe it's a money grab. Who knows.

Speaker 6 (42:23):
I don't know. I doubt it's worse than I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
The whole segment has been dedicated to the Kardashians.

Speaker 5 (42:29):
Well, he's saying he's working with I know, we literally
just made this up.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
Just now.

Speaker 5 (42:33):
He's saying he's working with the feds. He's like, I'm
working with the feds. He said, I'm bringing federal charges.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, one thing I will say, the only thing that's
like hashtag gossipy. I'm going to say this into the microphone.
That I do find curious is that Chris Kardashian's ex
boyfriend is Corey Corey Gamble and Corey Gamble they're no more,
and Corey is not happy and Chris is having her
glow up. And Corey the ex boyfriend used to be
justin b versus poor manager, and that became a little

(43:02):
bit like of intrigue in the Diddy.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Thing but never played out, so I don't even want
to go there.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
But there was a lot of like chatter about the
connection to Justin and Justin's connection to Ditty if you
don't remember, however, so like there has always been this
sort of six degrees.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
Of So is there something bigger? Should? I hope not?
Web We Chloe is love. That's all I care.

Speaker 6 (43:29):
Also at the like one of the bodies that were.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Oh, that's a big connection. So okay, this is air
quotes gossip, so take it for what it is.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Please don'tsue me. Oh we're getting them. Wrap it maybe.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Caumming up.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
Stephanie will finish that thought and we'll find out just
exactly where Chris Kardashian's ex boyfriend was. It's scandalous. We
have the latest in musician David's case. We have a
shocking bit of information in the Epstein case, and we
want to hear from you eight to eight three, one crime,
True crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
I don't want to derail us any further. But we
were just talking about the Kardashians and Ray J making
claims that he's filing a federal lawsuit for racketeering against
the Kardashians. It's a little vague as to what the
charges are. And then we were like briefly discussing what
the connection potentially to Diddy could be at the time,

(44:32):
when there was a lot of chatter which is the
category this should fall under.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
So we're just closing a loop here. This is chatter.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
I love my Kardashians, so I'm not speaking out against them.
God forbid, don't take my TV away. However, what was
interesting at the time was that Chris Kardashian, the matriarchan
mamager of the Kardashians, had a living boyfriend who's been
like on the show forever.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
His name is Kao Corey Gamble, I.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Believe, and his previous life was as Justin Bieber's tour manager,
which was kind of significant at the time because there
was so much chatter that Justin was in all those
Diddy videos and maybe he had been a victim of
Ditty's And by the way, none of that really came
to bear, and not even kind of came to bear.

(45:19):
It didn't come to bear. There was no Justin in
the case. However, it also was interesting though back to
the Corey Gamble Chris Kardashian's boyfriend, because interestingly, did he
had a baby mama. It wasn't his wife, it was
somebody he loved and had several children with Quincy she
had in a previous relationship, and then with Diddy went

(45:41):
on to have several other children, including the twins.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
And she lost her life, and she died mysteriously as
a very young woman in her forties, and it was
very tragic for all. But at her death scene, which
has been wildly debated again in the chatter category, why
did she die? How could that be? Let's exhuome her?
Her body?

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Was there something the fairy is happening at her death scene.
Corey Gamble was photographed at it, that's right, which was
like a weird connection.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
So he was at the house right the day she died. Yes,
so we know exactly.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
So at the time when all the Diddy stuff started
blowing up and he had been arrested and all of
these reco charges, you know, everybody was doing their you know,
their timelines, and you know, I had like a straight
up like crazy board and like nobody really materialized. So
I guess that's the lead number one and number two.
You can see where that came from, because there are

(46:36):
some strange, interesting, eerie connections between.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
All of these worlds.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
And now ray J is saying that even though he
was a member of the infamous Kim Kardashian sex tape,
now he feels as though there's racketeering charges to be
had against the Kardashians.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
And I don't know. All I can say is I
hope no.

Speaker 5 (46:59):
Right, wow, Well, moving on, moving, moving on exactly.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
All right, So listen, I want to talk about David.

Speaker 5 (47:12):
Okay please, the manager has basically come forward via his
TikTok account in a comment section of All Things. So apparently,
you know, there's this email that you know, his rumored
been going around. You know, I think I've told you guys.
Steven Fisher, the private investigator, he came out and said
that he has seen this email, he's verified it, and

(47:33):
he's this private investigator in LA. And this email apparently
was warning it's from an outside source, and it's warning
David's management team, like, hey, listen, I know, and I'm
paraphrasing here, I know that you know Celeste is with
you guys, and you know you need to know she's

(47:53):
under age, she's fourteen years old, she's a runaway. Be
you know, be careful, something to that effect. Okay, Well,
on a TikTok's account making these accusations and repeating what
I just said. The manager of David has responded, and
what he has said is like, no, that's not true,
and I have never received this email. I don't know

(48:15):
what you're talking about. I don't even live in that city.
Here's what he said. This is the only time I'm
going to speak on this matter for now. This has
been a tough time for my family as I'm the
father of three children. I have received no emails and
no one and I am no one's roommate. I with
full time at home with my wife and kids. My
daughter is fourteen, and this news is affecting so many lives.
I never received any emails, I had zero knowledge of anything,

(48:38):
and I don't even live in California. Also, I work
remotely ninety five percent of the time. So basically he's
denying knowledge of we received this even meal while Stephen
Fisher down He's like, yeah, Stephen Fisher's doubling down, saying,
I've spoken to the person who sent the email.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
I've you know, I've seen it. Have they seen the
email that I.

Speaker 5 (48:59):
Don't know that I don't know. He said he confirmed
with the author of the email that it was sent
and does exist. But I can ask him if he
has seen it himself. But he's saying that he did
confirm with his source, you know that this email was
sent and and whatnot? What of course the manager is denying.
Now here's the interesting thing. I've been thinking about this

(49:21):
a lot, and I kind of want to run something
by you guys. Let's do it, do you guys mind?
Let's mind? I am leaning leaning in all right? So
the Los Angeles. Okay, so we know a couple of things, right,
they're denying the email. That's that's number one. Right, They're
denying that they got there got a warning. Basically, Well,
we also know that the Los Angeles the law enforcement

(49:45):
has said that the there's no manner and cause of
death yet we know that, right, and we've been spitballing
for a hot minute basically that it's probably going to
come down to toxicology, right, and they have to wait
for that report to come in to rule on her death. Right. Well,
the Ellie has come out and said they said Monday

(50:06):
that you know the Los Angeles County Medical Examiner has
not yet determined cause or manner of death, and as such,
it remains unclear whether there is any criminal culpability beyond
the concealment of her body. That's what they that's in
a direct quote. So we know that right now. Listen.
We also know that her poor little body was in

(50:30):
that front for many, many weeks. We don't know how long,
but many weeks, right, And they came out early and
said media, we've never heard this from the police ourselves.
The media reported that the Elie said that she had
been dismembered. So here's what I'm going to say. I
don't think that's true. I don't think that's true at all.

(50:52):
And the reason I don't think that's true is beyond
concealment of her body. Now, if you dismember somebody, that
is like this massive crime. Right there's right, there's you know,
abusive corpse, there's I think it's probably a felony. Okay,

(51:13):
it's not just crepability, will you. Yeah, it's not just
criminal culpability beyond the concealment of a body. And I'm
doing that in quotes again, it's much more serious. Than that,
and there would be tool marks right to you know,
we talked to Joseph Scott Morgan all the time, he's
on every Sunday, love him, and you know, there would
be tool marks, there would be evidence of So the

(51:34):
cops would never say there might be criminal culpability in
regards to concealment of her body, right, they would say
something different, They would say something else.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Right.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
Yes, By the way, dismembering a body is illegal in
all jurisdictions. Mutilation, dismembering, or abusing a corpse is a
serious felony offense in every single state.

Speaker 5 (51:57):
So here's what I think, based on everything that we know.
And listen, we know very little, right. This is just
based on the little clues that we do have, which
by the way, are horrible little clues.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
And I could be.

Speaker 5 (52:10):
Totally wrong, like I but I'm gonna throw I'm gonna
go on a limb. I'm gonna make a prediction, soft launch,
soft launch. I believe it's very likely that poor Celeste
died from some kind of exposure to an illegal substance,
whether she ingested it personally herself on you know, intentionally,
or it was an accident or somebody did it to

(52:32):
her that I do not know, right, And I think
that to toxicology is going to come back, and I
think it's going to be a really good, you know,
uh positive result because they were able to do that
hormonal test to determine she had ever been pregnant, so
her body's in a good enough state, you know, and
to get to get these hormones, this HGC, you know,

(52:54):
tests that they do to determine if you've been pregnant
in the last year.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
So I think it's going to be a good test.

Speaker 5 (53:01):
I don't think it's gonna be like a false positive
or anything like that. So here's what I think. There
was an accident prior to David going on tour, maybe
end of July, beginning of August, somewhere in that timeframe
we know he went on tour. He started tour August
fifth in Corona in Delmar, California. It's like an hour
and a half two hours from LA and then August sixth,

(53:21):
he goes to Phoenix. Okay, so around around then, okay,
maybe right before around then, she she has this accidental
exposure to some kind of substance. Maybe she was supposed
to fentanyl. Maybe you know, something something like that some
kind of street drug. She dies and he maybe maybe

(53:44):
I'm please allegedly allegedly allegedly panics, Oh my god, my
tour is about to start. I've got this fourteen year
old girl that's been staying at my house allegedly, I
what am I gonna do?

Speaker 3 (53:55):
Like my life is about to change?

Speaker 5 (53:58):
Like this can't be happening, you know, like this is
kind of going through it maybe or maybe his team
mayor right, yep, maybe somebody. I don't know that. I
don't know, but I think it's gonna come down to
it was an accidental kind of overdose kind of situation,
and they panicked.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
And listen, he's a young man. You don't make good.

Speaker 5 (54:16):
Twenty a young twenty year his frontal lobe isn't even
developed yet, right, and he's got this minor he's harboring
a runaway, right, and he's just jail.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Allegedly.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
This is all sideny, guys, this is literally all allegedly.
None of it could be true. None of it could
be true. I'm just talking, and so I think that's
what we're gonna learn. Do.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
I think I'm so convinced by you. I totally agree
with your take on this. And by the way, let's
go a step further. I'm David the pop star. Excuse me,
I'm twenty years old, so he's to your point. I'm
not minimizing his age. He's not a kid, but he's
still a young man. In his frontal lobes have not
been developed. And yes, we're going on a world tour,

(54:59):
the biggest time of any musician's life. The money is
in the amount of people behind you, and management and the pressures,
all the things. Let's just say that, you know, Celeste
has been hiding at his house, and maybe he had
no idea how old she was.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Maybe he thought she was older. She had a lot
of fake id's.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Maybe he wasn't the one giving her the fake IDs.
Maybe he was the one receiving the fake IDs, so
he's keeping her safe. Maybe she had a tale to
tell that was maybe not true. Maybe she was coming
from a difficult situation, or maybe she had been you know,
using drups.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
I'm making this up.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Also, this is nothing to victim shame all her feet,
But like you know, she's a kid, and maybe he
is saying to him, hey, I want to be in
your orbit and I'm technically not allowed to and my
parents don't want me to be. But I'm going to
tell you that I'm wayward and I'm in a terrible situation,
so i have to escape here, and to mom and dad,

(55:57):
I'm going to say, peace out, I'm out eat. I'm
gonna just be on the lamb and I'm gonna go
missing because i want to be with David the pop
star in the Hollywood Hills, living my best life. And
David is like, look, you're way too young, but I
don't want to send you home to a bad situation.
Maybe yeah, she told him it was a bad situation.
I'm not saying that it was right. And he's like

(56:18):
the brother, I'm going to subtack you and like yeah,
he By the way, this is a kid that only
went to school till seventh grade and was homeschooled thereafter,
So in some ways, socially this is his peer. You know,
he's kind of operating in that same headspace. I'm guessing
we don't know the players. And then she's you know,
party pants or maybe somebody else's party pants around her.

(56:40):
She gets slipped some drugs or she takes drugs by
accit who knows? And the panic sets in and yeah, no,
frontal lobes are like, yeah, I have an idea. Let's
just stash the sash her in the car until we
figure something better out to do.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
Or he's not involved at all and he was already
very well.

Speaker 5 (57:03):
Put her in his own and his team is like,
oh my god, you know are are And listen, I'm
not saying anybody has team, please, don't you know. I'm
just trying to come up with different ideas, like maybe
somebody that he knows is like, we have to protect David,
you know, like without his knowledge even yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
Or one of his studies or one of the people
at the party who had access to the keys. You know,
we don't totally know.

Speaker 5 (57:24):
We don't know.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
And and then he finds this out and it's like,
oh my goodness, I can't even come forward and tell
the truth because.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
She was so young and I didn't even know she
was fourteen and I did. Now I'm going to be
seen as like my career is over.

Speaker 5 (57:40):
What's going to happen?

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah, I'm just going I don't even know whether I think,
but these are just scenarios that I could see play out.
If it was so black and white, he would have
been arrested by now.

Speaker 5 (57:50):
Right, I agree, and again I just that that statement
from the loss the about the medical examiner. As such,
it remains unclear whether there is any criminal culpability beyond
concealment of her body. Right, it would say dismember it
you abuse of a corpse. Let's say, it would say
that it had you been dismembered. And when somebody's dismembered,

(58:12):
that is like a murder in my eyes, like, oh
my god, they were stabbed and murdered or whatever. You know,
this it doesn't seem like that.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Oh, just this is so incredibly personal. And by the way,
does the stut market in order to dismember a human body.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
First of all, you are next level.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Off the mental awareness chain, and it's really personal, and
you are in a state of craziness that it is
impossible to imagine you can come back to that and
then go on tour and sing on stage.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
I have to assume that's not possible. But I'm also
wrong very often, and you know, sometimes people do dark
things and it surprises me. Right, well, I'm glad I
got that off my chest.

Speaker 5 (58:53):
Thank you for having it's.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Great there for a little bit.

Speaker 5 (58:55):
Well, coming up shocking new claims. Did Jeffrey Epstein secretly
blow backmail powerful figures with hidden recordings? Keep you ever
hair true crime tonight we're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
We've been talking a lot about all things Epstein, and
it seems as though the Jeffrey Epstein kinges keeps getting
pushed and pushed, and we hear a lot of things,
and then it goes quiet, and then we hear a
lot of things, and then it goes quiet. And today
was pretty astounding. And I want to say the first
time I've ever seen anyone really step forward and say, yeah,

(59:42):
I know what the plan was, and I saw it
with my own two eyes. So Howard Lutnik, who was
the US Commerce Secretary under Trump, came out and basically
was in an interview saying that he was Jeffrey Epstein's
next door neighbor in New York City and the one
and only time he went, we're a good old Jeffrey
Epstein's house. Jeffrey had invited him over likely because he

(01:00:04):
was a man of influence, meaning Howard was a man
of influence. So Howard Lutnik goes over to his neighbor's
house and in the middle of the main room he
notices a massage table and like anybody would, oh my goodness,
you have a massage table here. You get a lot
of massages, and Jeffrey Epstein I'm paraphrasing, says, oh yeah,

(01:00:25):
every day in fact, the good kind like wink wing,
oh yeah. And Howard Lutnik has now said, yeah, he
was the best blackmailer ever and that he believes in
his heart of hearts that in fact, people were being
either lured to any of Epstein's wild locations, whether it

(01:00:47):
was his island or his West Palm Beach location, or
his fancy you know, Brownstone in New York City, the
most expensive the most expensive real estate. Boy, if you
want to be ostentatious, I mean be ostentatious. Yeah, I
mean he was like so front and center with it

(01:01:09):
as well. So yeah, Howard is now speaking out, and
it's it's really astounding because he's putting himself in a
really tough spot on the frontline of a lot of chatter.

Speaker 5 (01:01:21):
And I'm underlined it needs to be underlined a little
bit though, that this is the United States Secretary of Commerce, right,
this isn't like some banker, right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Yep, this is or neighbor, some random neighbors, random, this
is the United States Secretary of Commerce.

Speaker 5 (01:01:41):
And he's like, yeah, Jeffreys, you know m O was
to invite powerful men over to get secretly filmed. And
he also was like, I question why somebody who committed
sex crimes was able to get a sentence of eighteen
months on work release. Like he's like, there's more here.
He's the greatest black mail or ever is what he said.

(01:02:02):
And I.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
Think it's astounding, And I think that I really do
think that this is going to be the beginning. Because
the victims, proudly survivors pardon me, survivors spoke and we
have spoken about how that was received poorly by some,
disregarded by others, applauded by all of us, and many

(01:02:28):
many others. But Howard Lutnik, as the first politician, the
person of power, person of influence, dare I say, white
man to say this was up and just say it plainly, And.

Speaker 5 (01:02:44):
Maybe this is the beginning this, maybe this is what
breaks that damn well that it's going to start flowing now,
Like the just one person has to like kind of
like you know, break that opening.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Is verify the story, because remember, this is very counter
to what has been said by so many people real time,
remember Cash, Patel, Pam Bondi.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Everybody was like, yeah, there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Is nobody operating other than Jeffrey Epstein, right, Howard Lutnik
went on today in a very courageous move, I might add,
so putting yourself in the in the front the front
line of a firestorm here and I think on behalf
of all women alive were very grateful if this is fact,

(01:03:30):
is your truth? So allegedly, allegedly, allegedly he is saying,
not only was there a massage table in the middle
of the room where Jeffrey Epstein and you know, implied that,
you know, lots of things were happening there. The follow
up question by the interviewee was so you know, we're
people being lured here, and his real take on it

(01:03:51):
was no, very powerful people were willingly participating, and that
it was an open secret is sort of the intimation here.
And that was the thing with Diddy and maybe some
crossover there. It seemed as though all of the white
parties and shenanigans in Diddy world was kind of an
open secret. Until he got arrested and everyone was like,
oh yeah, truth be told, and we started hearing all

(01:04:13):
the chatter. Epstein kind of an open secret until there
was real trouble, until he got arrested, and then later
his life either was taken or he committed suicide.

Speaker 5 (01:04:23):
But don't you think like with Diddy, it was just
like pop stars and other like influencer kind of people,
but with Epstein it was like powerful, like powerful men.
So I feel like it's a different like tears no scope,
like yeah, there you go, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
These are world Yeah, these are leaders.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
However, the only real similarity is they're being tape So
what you know, Howard, Lena Howard, Well, according to anybody
in recent times, the tapes don't even exist. And meanwhile,
we saw Epstein's homes being raided and they're being like
agents leaving the houses with big boxes that seem to

(01:05:02):
have tapes in them. That was like the whole shape,
and that was the whole ditty thing, right, So we
were all assuming that there were all of these tapes
everywhere that could in fact be used for blackmail. Again,
the only reason that's meaningful. Again, nobody cares if you're
making videotapes of your sex life behind closed doors and
watching them for personal reasons.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
I don't know. I don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
It isn't even like it's not my sauced away and
I have enough problems. However, if those tapes are being
used to influence our government, to influence the world, to
influence decisions for our military, that's wild, and that is
I think at the core of what we're all scratching at.

Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
It's scary to think about, isn't that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:46):
I'm so interested to see what goes on from here
if indeed it does open the door. Because reading some
research and I can't substantiate who, but what I'm reading
is Lutnik, and now all are alleging that Epstein recorded
associates to blackmail them.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Others also, I mean, we know this is true. We
have to assume this is true.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
This resonates in my heart so deeply, But I don't
I don't know. You know, we have forty women who
have come together on Capitol Hill with a very similar story.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
Very by are we, by the way too right? I
might add? They voted for all parties, right, so why.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Are we just discounting that? So we've already ignored them,
which is so crazy. We've already ignored all of the
women who have come forward and put their lives on
the line to say this happened to me.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
I was a kid or I was a young adult.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
And they're all corroborating the stories, and everyone's so easily
like putting that aside. So it sometimes takes a Howard
Lutnik to come out to corroborate that story. Remember, the
the victims are saying, if somebody doesn't come out, these
files are not released, we're going to put our own
list together.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
Now, enter Howard, and.

Speaker 5 (01:06:59):
You know what, I just want to say, it's kind
of tongue in cheek a little bit, but you know,
not to diminish the seriousness of this. But I never
would have guessed a man named Howard Lutnick would be
the you know, the United States Commerce Secretary. He's the
bravest man in America. I never would have guessed that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Ever, him and Israel, the guy that did not get
the Brazil from Ditty. Bravo, Yeah, can we like do
a little hero segment for them, because do you know
how much courage it takes to not take Ditty's money,
Because you witness as security him beating his girlfriend and
he was like, I'll give you one hundred grand. Fifty grand, No, no,
one hundred grand. This man said no and then went

(01:07:40):
home to his family. He's living in one of the
most expensive cities in the world, Yright Howard.

Speaker 5 (01:07:47):
Yeah, probably, you know, making you know, I don't know,
sixty seventy thousand a year. That would have been like
life light change, life changing money for me.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
He's right, You're so right. You're living in Miami. It's
so expensive there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Right, he's a security he's working maybe a second job
after being I'm guessing, but that man is real, and
we should pull up his last name right now.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
But I think about him so often, the fact.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
That he denied that much money and then doubly had
the guts to come out and testify and put himself
front and center. There are a few few heroes that
will do that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Enter Howard Lutnik, who by the way, works in the
world so like his.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Job is on the lines. Is real, flores Man.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
Even the guy that took the money actually came out
against Diddy and was like, oh, okay, viye and I
took the cash and I feel bad about it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
I get immunity right now.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
But yes, he did offer it to me and I
did witness this, this, this, and this, not that it mattered,
but interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
So now Howard's coming out.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
We know that we have a two hundred and eighteenth
signature that is set to be had if we can
finally get our congresswoman sworn in, which is now being delayed,
and we know the victims are also prepared to come
forward with a list. Now Howard is talking. Is there
more behind the scenes happening? Is this heating up? I'm

(01:09:09):
so curious what people think.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
I don't know. I mean the fact that this came
out just in an interview and so nonchalant.

Speaker 4 (01:09:19):
That's what I find quite interesting, is exactly that it
was so nonchalant.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
And it's not from page news by the way. It's
like getting traction.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Now. You know, we talked about it last night.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Body brought it to our attention yesterday, so you know
we have been trying to verify and see it for ourselves, etc.
I mean, this is dangerous stuff, so we're trying to
tread ourselves slightly and that get ourselves killed, you know,
quite literally. But it's important stuff, and I think the
parallels are very important. We're not judging jury. We don't
have all the answers. I'm just curious on how to

(01:09:52):
survive in the world. I'm not I'm not prescribing how
to survive in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):
I just want to know how to So imagine these
victims are finally coming out with real clarity and no
one believes them. Like that's crazy to me, and like,
what is this cover up? I don't understand that that's
even possible, and I want to believe that it's not.
But according to Howard Lutnik, there is something there.

Speaker 5 (01:10:16):
So I just wanted to really quick Israel Flores. He
was making ten dollars and fifty cents an hour.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
I love him. Wow, I love him. We should like
I love him.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
He was working at the Intercontinental Hotel in Miami Beach,
which is a very luxury hotel in a very luxury
Miami Beach place. You know, you've heard about it. It's
everything you would imagine from Miami vaight Vice. I've lived there.
I loved my time in Miami so fun. And that's
where you met Doron, right, Oh, that's where I met Deron.
Some of the best times of my life listen in

(01:10:48):
little suit. Different times, yeah, yeah, different times, but you
know it was real fun.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
But all that to be said. So here's a security guard.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
You're watching a very famous pop star beat somebody to
the ground, and that very famous pop star says, hey,
I'll give you some cash. Not five dollars, maybe fifty grand.
I'll give you fifty grand, maybe one hundred grand, to
just zip it and make this tape go away.

Speaker 3 (01:11:11):
And he refused it. And by the way, it was years.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Before this tape came out, So he refused it quietly
and it went away, and then he came back and testified.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
And that to me as a hero, it really is
so that, by the way, I just did very quick math.

Speaker 4 (01:11:27):
If it was fifty grand and approximately ten dollars an hour,
so that is five thousand working hours worth of money,
and that is insane. That's one hundred and twenty five weeks.
It's two years of a salary. Here you go, obviously
not taxing it when it's coming in a paper bag.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
That is life changing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
And by the way, I think there are more israels
in the world than we know. We talk of a
lot about the bad guys here, right, we talk a
lot about Thank God, the victims were trying to give
a voice to that. We're trying to keep ourselves safe
by unpacking some of this stuff and understanding it better.
But there are a lot of Israel's out there, I
would say so many, and you know, promoting that is

(01:12:12):
a really big deal. And listen Howard Lutnik putting herself
in the line of fire.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Yeah, and you.

Speaker 4 (01:12:19):
Know, speaking of the good guys, I feel like all
roads lead back to mister Rogers. Even earlier when Matthew
Russell lee yeh Inner City Press, and you know, he
made the comparison of Diddy dressing like mister Rogers is
kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):
A look at me.

Speaker 5 (01:12:34):
I'm so old and grown up and so I couldn't
harm anyone.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
But the real mister Rogers look for the helpers and
just people with strong constitution.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Have you guys ever been in a tough situation like
in public and people help.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
It's pretty shocking.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
I think in a moment when a regular person is
found in a terrible situation, I like to believe in
my heart and have witnessed it myself that the people
jump in.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
I would jump in in a heart.

Speaker 5 (01:13:04):
Thankfully, I have not. I have not been in that situation,
Thankfully I have, and.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
It's astounding, and it's like it's everybody has a firefighter
somewhere deep within.

Speaker 3 (01:13:15):
Mm hmm, gosh.

Speaker 5 (01:13:17):
I don't know what I would do.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
No, it's pretty remarkable. I can tell you what you
would do in a gut instinct. I'd like to think
if you over intellectualize it, it sounds stressful, you wouldn't.
But in the moment where you have no time to think,
I know in my heart, without doubt, it's like a
joke that you're even questioning it.

Speaker 7 (01:13:33):
I know.

Speaker 5 (01:13:35):
You would be even lie on my I couldn't even
lie on the reality show that the game.

Speaker 3 (01:13:41):
You know we watched show in.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
Your compass, I could like, I don't even think it's
a question.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
I think it's a I think it's human. I don't
even think, Yeah, just instinct, right, like.

Speaker 6 (01:13:53):
You to do something like that. And I think maybe
because we lived in New York and you would see
a lot of crazy stuff. Oh yeah, some specific ones
where I was involved, but I feel like I helped
in some way.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
I know, Taha, you are the most anybody would want
Taha nearby in a tragic event.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Not only would he like save the day, but he'd okay,
he'd hold you nicely, he'd brush your hair.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
So the photo was good. Yeah, Yeah, like the tas
in your corner.

Speaker 5 (01:14:21):
Let's hope we all do that in your corner.

Speaker 4 (01:14:24):
Stick around. We have a lot more we're digging into.
We are going to be hearing from you.

Speaker 3 (01:14:30):
We're very excited.

Speaker 5 (01:14:31):
We have a lot of talkbacks to get to.

Speaker 4 (01:14:34):
And we'd love it if he'd give us a call
eight at eight three to one. Crime keep it here,
True crime tonight. We are talking true crime all the time. So, ladies,
this insulin story.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
We talked about this earlier in the show and teased
it about so a who has been married multiple times.
She's been accused of murdering her husbands through insulin. My
mom actually sent me this story.

Speaker 4 (01:15:09):
Was it her first husband, Stephanie, because it was her
fifth It was her fifth husband's in fact, according to
my mother's curious Yeah, which is pretty major.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
And again we're hearing a lot of poisoning cases insulin.
We heard the mushrooms obviously, which we've talked about a lot.
That infamous case now in Australia, it was its first
live trial, so we've been getting a lot of information
about that. Thank you everyone in Australia and in Canada
by the way.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
So what do we think.

Speaker 6 (01:15:40):
I heard about that earlier today and I found it fascinating,
and I think that's when we're going to kind of
dig into a little bit more down the road. I
think that's a good one that maybe we can exploit
with Joseph Scott Morgan when he's here on Sunday.

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
That's a great idea.

Speaker 6 (01:15:55):
I think he'll really love that one. The one that
I'm dying to talk about though, is wasn't there something new?
There was some update with the yogurt shop murders that
I think, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
This, yes, this is a big deal.

Speaker 4 (01:16:06):
So the attorney for Mike Scott has called for a
full exoneration after DNA evidence that linked a serial killer,
Robert Eugene Brashers, to the nineteen ninety one Austin yoga
shop murders cleared him. So it was an actual serial
murder who participated in this. If you're not familiar, in

(01:16:28):
nineteen ninety one, these horrible murders involved shooting four teenage
girls to death, Jennifer and Sarah Harbinson, Eliza Thomas, and
Amy Ayers, and after that that wasn't bad enough. Then
it was followed by arson of this yogurt shop.

Speaker 3 (01:16:45):
It was a huge case.

Speaker 4 (01:16:47):
So and Mike Scott, he was one of the original suspects.
He was arrested for this killing and he got a
life sentence in two thousand and two. So his charge
or were dismissed in two thousand and nine because this
forensic evidence identified that the Brashers as the real killer.

(01:17:08):
So now they want to clear his name. He has
not been formally cleared exonerated.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Wow, right, his conviction was overturned. Right, Chargers weren't right.

Speaker 5 (01:17:18):
So and there's a difference between the two, right, because
the difference, well, it's subtle, but being exonerated means that
you're basically proven innocent, right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:28):
Courtney, that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
But exoneration is a form of it's a legal declaration
of actual innocence. It clears a person's record, it makes
them eligible This is not a small thing. It makes
them eligible for wrongful conviction compensation.

Speaker 5 (01:17:43):
So that is a huge deal.

Speaker 6 (01:17:46):
I think that's the monetary.

Speaker 4 (01:17:48):
Absolutely, and compensation and laws you know, like most things
vary by states, absolutely wildly, but that would be a
big deal, and the attorney Tony Diaz, he said, I
am this case stole decades of my client's life. Yeah,
I'm sure it has come to light. I mean the
fact that it was a serial murderer, isn't it wild?

(01:18:12):
And your life is ruined?

Speaker 6 (01:18:14):
That's crazy. That's like my biggest fear is like I'm
going to be wrongfully convicted of something same, Yeah, they
find out fifty.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
Years later by a r by an AI video or something.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
That's my big Or it's the DNA that we heard
about from CC, Like remember, like how many cases are
being realized. I'm working on a case right now. We're
doing a documentary about it. And really the DNA is
the answer. The fact that people are accused in due
time for as long as so many do, then they
get released and like are strangely cool about it, like

(01:18:47):
whether they sue and get a bajillion dollars. I'm just saying,
can you imagine having to go to prison in a
real way for a crime you didn't commit? It is
no walk in the park, and like they throw it,
hey so, and then you're innocent.

Speaker 3 (01:19:02):
And by the way, the giggle is always, oh yeah,
everybody is innocent. In prison. That's like the stick. Right.
We hear this all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Everybody finds God and everybody is innocent. What if you're
really innocent and I don't know how you recover with
that level of grace.

Speaker 5 (01:19:19):
I would be so bitter.

Speaker 7 (01:19:20):
I know.

Speaker 6 (01:19:22):
I look at the people who come out and say
they're changed and they're positive. I would be so angry.
You took so much. I missed everything. I didn't even
see Madonna's new videos.

Speaker 5 (01:19:30):
I was stuck in it, everything Madonna's new videos.

Speaker 7 (01:19:34):
That's what.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
Yeah, exactly, yes, exactly, I'm with you, no.

Speaker 3 (01:19:46):
Girl.

Speaker 4 (01:19:47):
But you know Michael Scott, he is relieved, but the
emotional toll has taken. It's taken a really big toll
on him and his family. Of course what he said, so, yeah,
it's it's terrible, and we talked about this a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:20:02):
Yeah, go ahead. The families. The families are.

Speaker 5 (01:20:04):
Three other kids too, right, that were charged in four total.
I wonder if the right coming from them.

Speaker 6 (01:20:13):
That's a good point. Interesting that got sucked into the
documentary the whole Yogurt Shop, and what stood out to
me at the beginning of it. I think it was
one of the first officers that showed up there and
it was in the nineties, and he said they were
trying to move the bodies and do something. And he
said something along the lines of they were just starting
to look into forensics. Course, it was this sort of

(01:20:33):
a new time period and people were about to ruin
everything that forensically would have helped the case. So there
was a hero in that situation that helped, wasn't there.

Speaker 5 (01:20:43):
Like something with the fire being put out that ruined
a lot of the evidence, like the fire retardant some
of the evidence that was on scene.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
I do remember that.

Speaker 5 (01:20:54):
Okay, I did not follow this one very closely, but well,
it was also interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
It was a while ago and at the time the
Austin Police Department, they initially handled the case, they had
a dedicated quote yogurt chop task force before ultimately it
was then transferred to the Cold Case Homicide.

Speaker 6 (01:21:13):
I just find it fascinating how far forensics and DNA
like that has come.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
Just in my well, it's not just.

Speaker 5 (01:21:20):
That, it's all the technology that we have to like
cell phones and hand we're basically holding you know, a
camera and a computer in our in our phone in
our hand the whole time, tracking everything that we do right,
and everything that we're thinking, like everything that I'm thinking,
my phone knows about right. So I am never I

(01:21:40):
am never going to be able to get it get
rid of.

Speaker 4 (01:21:44):
By the way, to answer your earlier question, body, So
to the four total, we know Michael Scott, we just
talked all about him.

Speaker 3 (01:21:53):
So Robert Springsteen.

Speaker 4 (01:21:55):
He was convicted and sentenced to the death penalty in
two thousand and one. Ultimately his conviction was overturned and
the appeal was based on a constitutional error and advanced DNA.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
He was excluded as a suspect.

Speaker 4 (01:22:08):
All of his charges were dismissed back in two thousand
and nine, he's released. Maurice Pierce charges against him were
dropped in two thousand and three, also lack of evidence,
and finally Forest Welburn, a grand jury chose not to
indict him. Back in two thousand and charges were dropped
and none of them did it because Robert Eugene Bashers did.

Speaker 6 (01:22:30):
And to say one of them was up for the
death penalty like that, could you imagine like this is
was your part?

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
There's I am not a proponent of the decust.

Speaker 6 (01:22:40):
I know in a few.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Cases that we've worked on that have been real eye opening.
By the way, you guys will remember in New Orleans. Imagine,
imagine you're in New Orleans and you're a young black
American who is convicted for a crime you didn't commit.
Like they're saying that maybe you spray painted a car.
You know, you were doing something like shenanigans in the area,

(01:23:04):
and the cop was like, no more of the shenanigans.
So I'm going to toss you in this jail and
you'll learn your lesson. So in this certain I think
it's called the IPP Right of Court, I think it's
called the IPP is this president's a privately owned prison.

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):
And imagine being tossed into this privately owned prison where
you don't actually have to be charged to be kept.
So it's a real thing. This is a real thing.

Speaker 2 (01:23:28):
Then, so you're being held for like being accused of, say,
spray painting a car or you know, again not like anything.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
Super supermad but obviously not great.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
But so you're waiting to go to the judge and
obviously there's cameras all over the world and you're essentially
going to be proven innocent and go home. But it's
like a formality that you're there for multiple days. Then
Katrina hints in all of the files, all cameras, ninety

(01:24:01):
plus percent of all of evidence is washed away. And
your innocence, by the way, you're innocent of a petty crime.

Speaker 3 (01:24:10):
Let alone.

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
You're standing trial for the death row, not the death row,
but for death row.

Speaker 6 (01:24:15):
For death row.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
Right by the way, all the prisoners are put under
a bridge.

Speaker 3 (01:24:19):
It's Katrina. They're all in shackles. What do you do?
By the way, years, I think it was ten years
before people that were just being held were released. Imagine
you have no job, your families, you have kids. What
if you have children and you can't go home to them?
Now the whole town is destroyed.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
There is no evidence in courtney Bible, correct me if
I'm wrong. The district attorney when we were looking into this,
the district attorney this in modern times, maybe four years ago,
pre COVID.

Speaker 4 (01:24:50):
Right, like it was about twenty seventeen, and I remember
watching it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:54):
It was sixteen sixty minutes. Yes, yeah, we saw it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:57):
Yeah. The DA said, we handle any more cases, and
we will not.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
It was a really big deal.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
So the district attorney of this area in New Orleans,
who is bound to sort of fight for justice. It's
such a hard job, right to get people released if
they didn't commit a crime. They were so backed up
because of Katrina that they couldn't even like get through
a file and read it with a straight face. They
were like, you would never put an unprepared pilot in

(01:25:26):
the air.

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
We refuse. Wow, a deep dive on this.

Speaker 4 (01:25:32):
We should still hold that we should because even New Orleans,
I mean, good grief, if I saw my research, then I.

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
Have about one hundred and fifty pages.

Speaker 4 (01:25:41):
In New Orleans, a person could be held for thirty
days before they're even charged. So Stephanie mentioned, you know,
a petty crime of spray painting, You do not even
have to know.

Speaker 5 (01:25:52):
What you are charged with for thirty days.

Speaker 3 (01:25:54):
Yeah, yeah, thirty a month a month, you're there, Yeah
kind of.

Speaker 5 (01:26:00):
Do you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
Oh and it's so racially charged too, by the way,
so like it was, do the math on like what
the high bars.

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
Yeah, it's really intense. So you guys should definitely.

Speaker 5 (01:26:10):
Check out the Khalif Brouder story on Netflix if you
want to. It's very it's in the same vein. He
was a young black man in New York. He was
being held at Riker's Island for like a year and
a half without being formally charged in front of a judge.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
And yeah, Sharon, Yeah, that's a great it's a great example. Heartbreaking,
absolutely heartbreaking.

Speaker 5 (01:26:30):
It's actually in my list, my top of my top
listed documentaries. Do you remember before we started the show,
I sent you a list of like my top something.
It's like up there, it's like number three or something.
It's one of my favorite ones. It's just so eye
opening and so horrifically sad about what happened to this
young man and it's it kind of reminds me of

(01:26:50):
the story you just told us, Stephanie, Like you know,
he he never really got any justice and they just
kind of said, Okay, here you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
Go, and.

Speaker 5 (01:26:58):
It got to him over by ten years.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
And to that end, it's ten years later, people are
finally getting released and imagine like the toll that has
taken on families, et cetera as they try to rebuild
and it's a privatized prison. We should also do a
deep dive on this because it such big, so much
to say people in prison so privately, privately.

Speaker 6 (01:27:19):
Especially, Yeah, that's a big one.

Speaker 5 (01:27:22):
It is a big one.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
That's something I'm kind of passionate about.

Speaker 5 (01:27:25):
Actually, I'm totally against the privatization of our prisons prison
for profit.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
I'm totally against it. I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
I didn't know any of that until we started covering this,
and maybe we that's something we can really do a
deep dive on because the numbers were pretty staggering. I
don't have them off hand because I'm I'm riffing right now,
but as always right but truthfully, like that is, it
was the numbers per night to keep somebody held behind
bars without being formally charged with anything or without having

(01:27:55):
a you know, private defender is staggering.

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):
The number was.

Speaker 4 (01:27:59):
Really okay, so we'll do this, Like I was on
speed doll with the FBI.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
And yeah, and we're welcome. I mean, we were marrying. Yeah,
it was a big project.

Speaker 5 (01:28:08):
I'd like to hear with that for sure, Yeah, I
really would. I mean, it's very interesting and it's it's
something that keeps me kind of interested in the justice system.
So I definitely want to hear more about that, for sure,
because it keeps me going, you know what I mean,
it keeps me going same.

Speaker 2 (01:28:22):
Well, Listen, everybody tomorrow is a big day in the
ditty case, so everybody watch the news, pay attention. We
will be back on Sunday, Forensic Sunday as always, lots
of science talk with Joseph Scott Morgan. Thank you for
having an incredible week with us. We want to hear
from you eight at eight three one Crime. Leave us
a message and listen. Stay with us True Crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:28:44):
We love you. Be safe.