Vance Boelter Captured After Political Attack in Minnesota, Forensic Breakdown in Kohberger's Case, and the Palm Springs Bombing Manifesto

Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic scientist and host of the gripping hit podcast Body Bags, weighs in on all the forensic details in this year’s upcoming trials — from theories to flaws. Jury deliberations began last Friday afternoon in the retrial of Karen Read. Bryan Kohberger and Rex Heuermann are both expected in court this week for major updates that could alter the course of their trials. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It's Sunday, June fifteenth. Happy
Father's Day to all the great dads out there. We
have a stack night a headlines tonight. The jury is
finally deliberating. Will Karen Reid finally get her verdict this week?
I think it's going to be tomorrow. We are also
catching up on all things puff Daddy in the trial continues.

(00:42):
And then we have our special guest who will be
here all the time, the KT crew Joseph Scott Morgan,
the greatest forensics expert of all time, also the host
of Body Bags. He is joining us later in the
show and talking to us about Long Island, the Idaho
College murderers, the works, and all of that plus more.
I'm Stephanie Laidecker and I head up KAT Studios where

(01:03):
we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get
to do that every day with Courtney Armstraw and Body
Move In So Body Karen Reid, we're there.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Finally, finally. You think we're gonna have a verdict tomorrow.
I do, So I'm gonna I'm gonna go with late Tuesday,
early Wednesday.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
That's your betods.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well, I mean you seem like it seems like very
black and white, right like you if you're not really up,
you know where you need to be by now there's
a problem, right, And I totally get you, I absolutely do.
If the jury comes back Monday, I think it's gonna
be not guilty all the way down the board, like
I really do. But I but I think there's gonna
be some contention. I think there's gonna be some people

(01:44):
in the jury room who have some questions, and I
think it could go because they think it a full
day Friday, right, They didn't get a full day.

Speaker 4 (01:52):
They only had two hours under.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Flowers, right, So I think they need at least a
full day. So that's Monday and then most of Tuesday,
I think they need, if not all of Tuesday, and
then we'll hear something on Wednesday.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
There's I think to the optics of that. Also, this has.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Been a long time coming Karen Reid's retrial. If you
haven't been following closely. Karen Reid. This is her second
trial for the death of her boyfriend John O'Keefe. She's
accused of basically running him over with her lexus in
the middle of the night and fleeing the scene in
the middle of a snowstorm under the influence of alcohol.
And look, she had a hung jury the first time.

(02:27):
This is the second round. She feels as though the
defense did a really great job on her behalf. So
she feels as though she's been well represented. And look,
at this point, it's the final stretch. It's in the
juror's hands.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
And you know, I have to agree with her.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
She has been well represented, and I think her defense
actually did a really great job. But I also will
say the prosecution did a great job with what they had.
I think the investigation itself, which you know though of
course the state that well, the prosecution doesn't really have
a huge pardon, you know, like they're not out on
the scene, you know, colecting samples with solo cups. Right,

(03:02):
it's not it's not the lawyers that are doing that, true.
But so yeah, Friday wrapped up, the jury started, there
was a swarm of reed supporters out in front. Like
you know, last the first trial, it seemed like there
was a constant surge of people, but this retrial there
hasn't been, you know, that big of a crowd. But
Friday we saw a big crowd. So that must have
been nice for Karen to see as she exited the courthouse.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
You know, I obviously I love that.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Obviously she didn't testify, so that's really no big surprise.
But I kind of wanted to go Courtney, and I thought,
and you can tell me what you think about the
Stephanie Courtney, and I thought maybe we would go through
the highlights of each closing statement, like I'll do the
prosecution side, and Courtney would do, you know, the defensive side,
and we would maybe go.

Speaker 5 (03:47):
To do it.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, let's go because there are some really big ticket
items on either side. And frankly, you guys are legit divided.
So this is a fun exercise because it's authentic.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
So one thing that really kind of put everything in
perspective for me in regards to the prosecution who it
was done by Prosecutor Hank Brennan. One of the things
that he said that really kind of brought everything home
for me was at how John's niece testified that John
would just walk away from arguments, like if him and
Karen were arguing, he would just like walk away, and
Karen would follow him room to room and just continue

(04:21):
to fight. Okay, that just kind of this goes to
my theory about what happened that night. So when he
said that, I was kind of like confirmation bias. Here
we go. It's working over time in my head right now,
because I really think that, you know, they were arguing
that night and things, you know, again, they were both
you know, wasted right and emotional, and I think either

(04:42):
he threw the whiskey glass at the tailgate or was
bending down because he dropped it and she was backing
up twenty four miles an hour, and either I don't
necessarily think she hit him, but I think he kind
of maybe got startled or you know, lost his balance something,
and that's what happened.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
And she unknowingly, in your unknowingly regardless, she left, not
thinking she was leaving her boyfriend for dead in the snow,
but rather that she was just peeling out and he
was going up the driveway to see his buds, right,
and by all accounts she wanted to go home right.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
She was for this night was done.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
She was sick in and out with the friends, and
it had gone on for too long.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
She wanted to go home right, and then he went,
you know. He argued that.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
He argues that John O'Keefe was struck with the SUV
after a night of drinking and then she just like
abandoned him in the snow. He highlighted key evidence like
the tail like fragments again read's own words and voicemails
and text messages, you know, expressing her hatred for John
but again they were fighting right, and her significant impairment,
he mentioned, you know those he he referenced her own words,

(05:49):
he said, I don't She said, I don't think I
hit him, but I could have clipped him. In the
documentary series which they played for by the way, in court, that.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
Was their big ending moment.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
She regret that or not, but look, I know at
the end of the day, she's being candid. And she's
also said to have said at the scene when discovering
his body, I killed him, or I hit him, I
hit him. I mean that has also been turned around
by the defense to say I didn't hit him. I
didn't hit him, and maybe that got lost in translation.

Speaker 6 (06:17):
Also that it's and I will not hop in after
this on the prosecutions.

Speaker 7 (06:21):
This is my time, cord time, but one thing.

Speaker 6 (06:24):
But it also is a common trauma response of when
you are literally shocked to say things like it's my fault,
I do wherever it is anyway, that's it.

Speaker 4 (06:35):
I know, I can, I can absolutely agree with that.
So I thought Hank did a great.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Job and in line with you know, the iPhone data
shows he wasn't in the house. The temperature the temperature
data on the iPhone, how it never you know, it
stayed consistent with him basically laying on top of it
all night. The tail light fragments from her lexus are
the ones that were found in the yard. You know,
her backing up at twenty four miles per hour literally

(07:00):
at the same time that his phone stopped moving for
the rest of the night. Combined with all that, I
believe Karen Read is guilty, and I believe the state
did as good as they could. But I think they're
going to find her not guilty.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
And you think she'll go away till when No, I
don't think her life.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
No, I don't think they're going to find her guilty.

Speaker 4 (07:18):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
I don't think that they've proved it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
So you think she did it, but she'll get away
with it. I do, I do.

Speaker 5 (07:25):
So.

Speaker 6 (07:26):
We have heard the prosecution side the state arrests for
the defense. The closing argument was given by Alan Jackson.
I think he did an exemplary job. Body is making motions.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
As Okay, did somebody just appear with the gavel?

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Court is back in session. Continue, sorry, courtneyarmstets Okay. The
prosecution has.

Speaker 6 (07:53):
Not proven their SUV collision theory beyond a reasonable doubt,
the injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car,
and in fact, no medical professional on either side, no
medical professional backs up the fact that John O'Keeffe was
hit by a car. That obviously includes the Commonwealth's medical examiner.
John's arm, which the prosecution expert alleges was hit by

(08:14):
a tail light, It was not bruised or broken. And
there was a really interesting moment in the closing arguments
where the defense said we had to dig up these
X rays of John's arm and they hadn't. He made
it seem like they were kind of trying to cover
it up. But bottom line, this arm that was allegedly
hit by a six thousand pound vehicle was not broken.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
That is a shocker, a shocker to me. I just
don't believe he was hit with the SUV. I mean
to me, it's not a huge shocker. I don't know.
But why the cover.

Speaker 6 (08:47):
But that because they thought it's the whole prosecution's case
that they were hit.

Speaker 7 (08:50):
So that is what they are. That is what they are.

Speaker 6 (08:52):
Stipulaight also brought up in closing arguments excuse me, taillight tampering.
So Nicholas Barrows testified about the damage to the tail
light and the fact that it was more extensive in
a photo taken at the police garage than it was
when he sees the vehicle at Karen's parents' house.

Speaker 7 (09:10):
Okay, so that's that is a big deal.

Speaker 6 (09:13):
Suspicious behavior from Brian Higgins from here to sundown. You know,
as the jurors, we've seen the surveillance of Higgins getting
aggressive with victim John O'Keeffe at the bar earlier that night,
and then one hour after Karen Reid left the scene
at one thirty am, then Brian Higgins was back down
at the Campton Police station doing paperwork question Mark.

Speaker 7 (09:34):
There was so much.

Speaker 6 (09:36):
Misconduct by Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, even take aside
the bias text messages that we've talked about where he
said very disgusting things, hard to do, hard to Karen
read side, But even taking that out, he had a
refusal to look behind beyond Karen as a suspect. There
was almost no investigation. There was literally no investigation into

(09:57):
the Alpert's house. The Perts, the homeowners did not come
out at all that morning.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
They only went in for like five minutes to interview
Jen McCabe.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Right, I was gonna say in Jenn McCabe, she's really
the one who's basically saying I did it.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
I did it.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
She heard Read's first hand confession. Where's all the investigating
into the people that were there? Courtney, Courtney, did you
go to law school?

Speaker 4 (10:21):
There was over the weekends.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Got me listen, I'm sensing some bias here.

Speaker 6 (10:27):
There was no crime scene tape to secure the scene.
These are facts A neighbor's home which had a ring
camera pointed directly at the Alpert's house. It wasn't visited
that home and therefore the video was lost. These are
investigative absolute failures that prove that you know, they were
not looking at anyone but Karen Reid. And then also

(10:50):
with the tail light, so the tail light was completely
the internal workings were totally gone, right, but at which
meant it would not light up at all. But there
was a photo at five seven am, many hours after
she allegedly hit Schaineakeef where her tailight was illuminated. And
yet then that's right after that.

Speaker 4 (11:11):
That's right, it was totally white, right because the red Yeah,
that's right, that's right.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
I know. I would like to know if in fact
Karen Reid is found innocent not guilty tomorrow. My prediction
if that happens, can charges still be placed on, say,
for example, Brian Higgins, who's come up many times allegedly,
allegedly allegedly is is can the state prosecute Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
They can't prosecute Karen Reid, but certainly they could go,
well we went back to the drawing board, and you know,
but I mean, I would imagine that the Higgins defense
would be like, well, then why'd you prosecute?

Speaker 4 (11:47):
Why'd you try to prosecute Karen?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Read twice in a row like why you know now
you're just looking for a fall guy, you know, But
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
But ye, it's a bad look I suppose to badbody.

Speaker 6 (11:55):
Yeah, so both the prosecution and defense have rested. When
we come back, Stephanie will give her verdict. We're going
to continue following this and we are joined by forensic
expert Joseph Scott Morgan. He has insight on three major
criminal cases. Then we're breaking down week five at the
trial in Shan Diddy Combs keep it here on True

(12:16):
Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
So we were really highly debating this whole Karen Reid's stuff,
and we're going to push that on until later in
the show. I'm still a little bit divided, although both
of you, I must say, have done a really great
job presenting the facts. But now on to our next body.
Where should we start with Long Island? So the alleged
Long Island serial killer Rex Hewerman. He'll be back in
court on Tuesday. This is court, by the way, the judge.

Speaker 6 (12:49):
Will continue to weigh in on whether or not to
allow the key DNA evidence into the trial. Rex Huwerman
was arrested in twenty twenty three on suspicion of being
the serial killer allegedly responsible for eleven murders in Long
Island from nineteen ninety three to two thousand and eleven.
It's important to note he has been only linked and

(13:11):
accused of seven of the murders. The other remaining ones
are alleged and there is going to be a June
seventeenth hearing and prosecutors want to admit cutting edge genetic
evidence and the defense has strong objections and we will
hear more about that when they're back in court.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that Joseph Scott Morgan,
forensics expert, host of bodybags and also worldwide scholar himself
Jacksonville State University, is here in the house.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
Joseph, what do you have to say for yourself?

Speaker 5 (13:42):
Oh? Not much, but thanks for having me on Hoe.
I've been waiting to join you guys now low these
couple of weeks and it's great to be on We
all to see if shining faces and hear your lovely voices.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Joseph is also Katie Family and he is a part
of the crew here, going to be with us often.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
He does all of our podcasts as well.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
He's been on all of our documentaries, so he's he's
the guy, and honestly, I think we have so many
questions for you, Joseph.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
Buckle up, Buckle up, Joseph. Rip that band aid off,
right exactly.

Speaker 5 (14:16):
Yeah, I'm buckled up. I'm ready.

Speaker 6 (14:18):
What do you think in the Long Island Cage, Joseph?
What do you think about the judge ruling one way
or the other about the DNA evidence?

Speaker 7 (14:27):
Should it be allowed.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
And what's different about it?

Speaker 5 (14:30):
I think that it should. Yeah, Well, you know, what
they're talking about is utilizing what's referred to as nuclear
DNA as opposed to DNA studies where you're dealing with
greatly degraded DNA, which this is, by the way, but
they're going to apply nuclear testing to it, and they've

(14:50):
come up with some interesting results. You know, over period
of time, biological specimens break down, so you have to
do everything you can to try to enhance those. What's
really fascinating I found in this particular case is that
the defense in is pre trial hearing that they had
some time ago, they actually now get this. They actually
use the defense attorney actually used the term magic. And

(15:13):
I was talking recently at a conference and whatnot. It's
almost like I had visions of him describing that they'd
suddenly discovered fire for the first time. You know, this
is not magic. This is something that's been used literally
in healthcare for years and years. What's it used for, well,
to study disease with and it's validated in a medical community. Okay.

(15:34):
But here's the rub. It's in order for something to
be admitted and used in court, particularly news technology, I
mean new technology, it has to go through a series
of gates, if you will. And there's two ways to
look at it. You have Daubert States, which is much
more rigorous, which New York is not a Daubert state,
as reportedly progressive as they are. There's still a Fry state.

(15:57):
There's only four Fries states left. And you know United
States they use Fry. The bar is much lower for them.
And so break that down to generalized. Yeah, well, with
Fry being in a Fry state, it's like the bar
is much lower, Okay, in order to get to get
evidence admitted into court, it's the way it's phrase generally

(16:20):
is general scientific community acceptance, if you will. All right,
very very proper. Now there has to be published over
it very rigorous, that sort of thing that doesn't exist here.
I suspect that it will get admitted, no use it.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, I was just going to ask you that.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
So because they're this fry state, they have a lower bar,
so you would think that it would be allowed then, right,
because it's new, and I guess the defense is proclaiming
that this is not scientifically accepted anywhere.

Speaker 5 (16:55):
That's what they're saying. But yet you have a huge
volume of the stuff. The nuclear DNA has been used
for years and years worldwide in the medical community.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Oh okay, well, we're going to find out if the
judge allows this evidence into the humor and trial, what
could this mean for his defense?

Speaker 5 (17:11):
Do you think I mean, it's going to be Yeah,
if you're asking me, I think that it's going to be.
It's going to be difficult for the defense to overcome. Simply,
the numbers are astronomical, you know, and we'll hear about
these astronomical two months in a row, astronomical numbers in
both in both the Hurman case and in Coberger's case.

(17:33):
These numbers are mind blowing. When you get into this
arithmetic and you begin to think about what are the
odds Now, for years and years we thought about things
like blood typing, ABO grouping and all of that. You're
talking about one in one hundred and twenty nine thousand.
When you start to talk to I mean one like
one in one hundred and forty nine people might have

(17:54):
av grouping or ab pause grouping or ab neg grouping.
You're talking about quintillion in this case. And that's that's
the fight. That's the fight not want to have, and
that's what they're facing right now.

Speaker 4 (18:08):
Well, plus the.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Hair from the daughter and the wife. Right there's it's
not just him, right am I collecting that?

Speaker 5 (18:16):
Right? Yeah, You've got these. So you've got the association
here between these two other people that otherwise might be outliers,
but they're really not. They're domiciled in this location along
with a guy that has not been convicted, that has
been accused of some of the most heinous crimes you know,
up and down the Eastern Seaboard. It's compared to up
and down the Eastern Seaboard in years and years. When

(18:37):
you begin to think about the volume of the things
that he's been accused of and also facilitating them, maybe
at the same domicile, using the same vehicle. All these
sorts of things begin to play into it and the
science I think, and of course I'm kind of partial.
I think the science is going to be the tale
of the tape.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
Here I do too, just agree.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Can I ask you just about the home itself where
Rex Nuerman and his family lived. As a reminder, he
was a married man, two children, one with special needs.
His daughter recently was you know, quoted as saying that
it's you know, it is possible I'm paraphrasing that her
father is the Gilgo Beach killer. His daughter, Victoria, took
the train with him to work every day where he

(19:17):
was an architect in New York City. So this was
like an average man doing very non average things.

Speaker 4 (19:24):
The house.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Much has been made about there being sort of this
dungeon where unthinkable things were happening to the accused victim,
allegedly allegedly allegedly that you know, some of these women
were dragged there and kept alive and frankly tortured. Think
silence of the Lambs type style. Is there forensics to
point to that would that you would agree with that assertion?

Speaker 5 (19:49):
Well, I think couple couple structurally with that environment which
these things could have allegedly taken place of along with
this list that he created to do list, which absolutely
if for folks that are not familiar with it, if
you actually read this thing, it will send a chill
up your spine like no other bit of evidence that's

(20:12):
out there. And one of the things that they talk about,
or that he allegedly talks about in this list is
this idea of the hard point, and a hard point
is generally something that engineers, structural engineers, architects talk about
like an adjoining area, you know, when you're building a structure,
But for the hard point here, this is also something
that that kind of filters into statistic behavior with sexual predators,

(20:37):
where you can actually suspend somebody or hang them from
like a hook or an eyebolt or one of these things.
And that's that's very chilling, you know when you think
about that and that dark, dirty basement down there. I've
actually been to the house. I stood outside of it,
took photographs that sort of thing. I don't think I
was supposed to be there, but I was, And it

(20:57):
stands out like a source on these houses are the
lawns are immaculate. They're not huge houses, but worked a
lot of money in Long Island and this thing, you know,
for an architect to live there, it is pale. And
you began to think about the expeer of the house.
And I don't know if you can read much into
what went on relative to life inside the house by

(21:19):
what's still on the outside. But it was a real,
real dumpster fire.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
It's true there, you know, apparently were hoarders, you know,
so sometimes you know, hoarding could be thought of as
a mode of depression, right, So maybe it wasn't the
most happy home. But again, who would imagine that in
a suburban neighborhood where people have really nice lives and
you know your neighbors, and people are walking dogs that
you don't have, you know, girls hanging from the ceiling

(21:44):
in the basement when the kids are home.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah, yeah, I got to tell you, if I was
out walking my dog, I'd get on the other sidewalk
across the street and walk my dog. Just by the
external appearance.

Speaker 4 (21:54):
Of this thing, unbelievable, Joseph.

Speaker 6 (21:57):
And I know, you know, this hasn't gone to trial yet,
but as of today, what do you think is the
most compelling forensic evidence?

Speaker 5 (22:06):
Yeah, we've heard about I think probably a big part
of this is going to be a placement of the
bodies and the level to which the bodies were memorialized
by by him with the wrapping, the using of the
burlap sacks and that sort of thing. That consistency there,
I think, and I think probably and this is more circumstantial.

(22:28):
But going to the lifestyle these poor women led, you know,
living hand and mouth existences as sex workers, and a
lot of have been made about that over the years,
I think degrading them and no one deserves what they
got at all on any level. We definitely agree car
in itself, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:46):
We definitely agree there.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
We're going to be back with Joseph Scott Morgan to
break down the forensics and other major cases in the news,
from murders to a bombing with the mysterious motive and
a manifesto.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Then we're going to be.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
Discussing week five in the trial against Sean did he come?
There were some more major twists. Keep it here on
True Krime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan is breaking down all the
latest cases of the summer. He has some very unique
insight the Idaho College murders. If you've been following us closely.
There's a report that just came out that there's a
video potentially of the door dash driver, and we're not
even going to talk about it quite yet because we
haven't verified and we want to make sure that we're

(23:34):
sharing information that is both timely and accurate. So more
on that tomorrow. But again, lots to uncover in all
things Idaho. Body, where should we begin.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Well, I was going to talk about the door drash driver,
but you took the wind out of my sails.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
Oh baby, you got to hold that thought.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
No, we do have to. We want to make sure
that we're giving the correct information. So we got a
lot to look at with that. But you know, this Wednesday,
of this upcoming Wednesday day, actually Judge Hipler is holding
you know, a hearing to decide if the motion to
delay his trial will be granted, So we'll definitely be
covering that and whether or not his team can introduce

(24:11):
the alternative suspect. Now, that portion of the hearing will
be sealed, so we're not going to know what they
talked about, but the portion of the hearing that's going
to be discussing the delay will be you know, on
their YouTube channel, so we'll be covering all of that.
As a reminder, Korberger is a former PhD student in
criminology and he's accused of fatally stabbing for University of

(24:31):
Idaho students on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two. This
happened in Moscow, Idaho, very close to the University of Idaho,
and the victims were all really young. They were in
their twenties, and they were all college students, so sometimes
you'll hear it referred to as Idaho college murders.

Speaker 4 (24:45):
I have a question for Joseph.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
So there's so much to cover in this case, and
I know we only get you for such a short time,
but I have so many questions for you because this
is a case really about forensics. Right, There's so much
to cover, But let let's just start with the latest,
which is the alternative suspect. Right. I think it's personally,
I think it's nonsense. But what do you what are
your thoughts on it?

Speaker 5 (25:05):
Why? Why is there not been anything up until this point?
And I think that if the defense cares so much
about the community, they think there's somebody else out there
and they have an id on that person. Least the name.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Release the name exactly, it would be dangerous.

Speaker 5 (25:23):
Yeah, you've got somebody, arguably from what we've heard, that
has perpetrated horribly painous crime. I mean, they're saying the
bloodiest they've ever seen. But yet this person's running about
the countryside. So you don't have a name. You say
that there's somebody, do you not care about the citizens
up there? I think that that would be my supposition

(25:43):
at this point. But that's just me, you know, And
I find it interesting that nothing has come up. I
think that probably how this is going to play out.
They've talked about, you know, one of the young ladies
upstairs had three contributors under her fingernails, and they're going to,
you know, introduce this mystery person. Maybe I don't know,
but that's something that I think is very curious. I'd

(26:05):
like to know who it is. If that's what they're
going to look for.

Speaker 3 (26:08):
I think they might be even using that the blood
on that handrail, that might be something that they try
to use as well. You know, I don't know if
they ever identified the way it came from, but I
think they're going to use that.

Speaker 5 (26:19):
We hadn't heard anything. I'm really wondering body if if
that was if it was a non viable sample, you know,
if it was just it compromised in some way, and
it could be compromised both the ways. One of the
ways it can be compromised is how it's collected. You know,
how did they try to process it? Did they destroy it?
You know? What was it?

Speaker 8 (26:38):
Was?

Speaker 5 (26:38):
It inconclusive And we're not necessarily on have all of
those answers until the same makes it into the courtroom.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
And just as a for clarity, there's three pieces of
evidence that we're talking about when it comes to this, right,
it's the handrail that there is this unidentified and new,
you know, little something also under victim Madison Mogan's fingernail,
allegedly there's more DNA or additional like a mixture, a
mixture which you know, by the way, I know this
only because I get to work with Joseph so often.

(27:06):
You know that we all have DNA under our fingernails, right,
just by hugging on each other. I for sure have
all of your DNA potentially under my fingernails just by
greeting you and giving you hugs, right. And then also
there's that glove and that too had a hit of
something on it. Again, this is all stuff that they're throwing,
you know, in his defense. But to Joseph's point, this

(27:27):
happened in twenty twenty two. Has it been three years
with a killer at large running around Moscow, Idaho?

Speaker 3 (27:33):
I think it's going to be like kind of like
the alibi defense. It's going to be just a lot
to do about nothing. It's going to be, you know,
kind of similar to, oh, he was driving out looking
at the stars on a cloudy night. I think it's
much to do about nothing in my opinion, I'm only
speaking for me, Joseph.

Speaker 6 (27:48):
I have just one more follow up about the the
DNA quote mixture of three potential people under victim Madison
Moogen's nails Colberger turned up inconclusive. How much weight should
I give that? Because that, yeah, should that raise a flag?
Not raise a flag?

Speaker 5 (28:07):
Don't think about how much weight you should give it.
Think about how much weight the defense has given it
because they didn't want to admit it, because you know,
it leaves the door open. You know, they didn't want
that admitted. They didn't want that introduced, so he cannot
be included or excluded. I think that's that's key here,
you know. So I'm not saying it's damning, but you know,

(28:28):
my cousin, Vinny, your bill in the house blocked by block,
you know, And so that's the way I look at it.
And if they start screaming anytimes somebody starts screaming about
something like this, you know that. You know, I don't
want it to happen.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
Joseph, you and I were on the phone when these
murders happened. I remember it like was yesterday. You were
the first person I spoke to and when these murders
had occurred, and we were all so shocked by just
the sheer volume.

Speaker 4 (28:52):
Of blood and the overkill.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
And you know, you'll remember you've seen photos probably of
the cement under the house.

Speaker 4 (28:59):
Literally it had blood dripping.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
The fact that there aren't more forensics, to me, is
always slightly interesting in and of itself. Obviously, the house
where this murder, these murders occurred has now been destroyed.
That too, was very controversial. And what happens next, you know,
this new leak from Dateline had some information that I'm
curious if you have an opinion on that.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
Hell yeah, I've got an opinion on it. And I'll
tell you why. I woke up on a Saturday morning
to a tweet from somebody that said, what was it? Well,
I guess he's a fan of Joe Scott forensics. Oh
he watched your had flashed had flashed up on the
dateline thing in that six week period. According to this
data dump, apparently he had been watching some of the

(29:45):
stuff that I was discussing. And my wife and I,
as as our tradition, every single morning, we drink coffee,
even on Saturday mornings, you know, and we're sitting there
and I'm thinking, oh my god, So I had to
go back and look at it. I didn't watch the program,
and there it is. There's a screenshot, you know, and
I'm thinking, and of course my wife is sitting there
and she's she's thinking, this guy's this guy's watching you,

(30:07):
you know, because we have weird things happen anyway, you know,
I'll appear on programs and whatnot. But this was something unbelievable.
But besides that, there's somebody that has released this right now.
I mean, the media is going to do what the
media does. That's their nature. However, what's the genesis of
this data dump and this is a data dump, and

(30:27):
you it's not just one piece. You've got CCTV images.
You know, you've got still images, You've got all of
this data. And then the stuff that comes up about
positionality of Xana, and you know, we hear about all
these different things that have kind of dropped in our lap.
And then it's like, I think the next day, I
heard somebody say, oh, there's going to be more, and

(30:49):
I'm thinking that I can if I had been in
this Judge Chambers, just as a fly on the wall,
I can imagine his head was about to go nuclear
and just explode because you know they moved thing, are
they you know, reset it. They've had to move it
to Ada County and now the house is gone, and
you know, s fool guys is sitting back saying, what
what else? What else can happen? At this point, nothing's

(31:11):
off the table as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
And it's an interesting, you know, juxtaposition, because on the
one hand, you want to make sure it's a death
sentence trial that Brian Coberger is getting the greatest defense possible.
Right it's life and death, high stake situation, so they
have to take their time to get through all the
discovery associated with this case. However, on the flip of that,
more time equals more loose lips and leaks and reasons

(31:36):
and delays and alternate theories and jury pool issues. You know,
the closer it gets, the harder it gets to keep
information contained.

Speaker 5 (31:45):
It does. And plus let's don't forget about the families.
They are in excruciating pain and it never ends. This
is a death like death that they continue to relive
every single.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
Day, especially on FI.

Speaker 5 (32:00):
There's no such thing as closure. Yeah, I don't fothersh that,
there's nothing. There's no such I don't believe in closure,
particularly when it comes to homicide. It goes on and on,
and this is salt and a wound and just continues.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
It perpetuates itself, perpetuates itself.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Either way, do you have a fast opinion about Karen
read guilty not guilty? Not to go back to a
previous segment, but I'd be remiss not to ask, Come on, Joseph,
convince us, Yeah, guilty not guilty.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
I think, Oh geez, I'm going to say. I'm going
to say, hum, Jerry, I'm going to say, yeah, I
don't think Yeah, I don't think they're going to be
able to come up with. I think it's going to
split because they've got to twist it around so much.
I think it's a massive confusion. That's what I think.
I love to look at the evidence and look at
it from that perspective, but for me, it's just it's

(32:50):
so convoluted, the whole thing is, and it's even more
convoluted second time around. So I really expected a better
job to have been done, and it's lacking greatly.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
I got to tell you, if i'm John O'Keeffe, the
victims mom or parents Peggy O'Keeffe, you're thinking, I want
answers for who did this to my son? So if
it's not Karen Reid, who is it? I hope she
gets those answers at the bare minimum.

Speaker 7 (33:16):
That's right.

Speaker 6 (33:17):
Listen, we want to hear your thoughts on all of
tonight's cases.

Speaker 7 (33:20):
Give us a call eighty to eighty three to one Crime.

Speaker 6 (33:22):
We're talking Karen Reid, We're talking about the Long Island
serial killer, Brian Cooburger and Joseph will discuss more cases.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
He is sticking with us for the evening. We're going
to be talking about the Diddy case coming up. Also
the Palm Spring bombing. And also there's breaking news right
now in that horrifying case in Minnesota. Man has been
on the loose and Courtney, what's the latest development.

Speaker 6 (33:47):
This is literally minutes old, it's about four or five
minutes old. But the man hunt is over and suspect
Vance Luther Bolter has been captured in Minnesota for a
crime Governor Tim Waltz called quote an act of targeted
political violence.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (34:04):
Yes, So Melissa Hortman, a Democrat, and her husband were
killed in a city near Minneapolis. John Hoffman and his
wife were also shot several times at their home.

Speaker 7 (34:16):
They are out of surgery and stable right now. Excuse me.

Speaker 6 (34:20):
John is out of state, out of surgery and stable,
and his wife is also alive. So this suspect impersonated
an officer and was driving what appeared to be a
police car, and investigators found in his car a hit
list of nearly seventy names. Oh my gosh, mostly figures
with ties to abortion rights.

Speaker 7 (34:41):
So this manhunt, listen, job, well done.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
Well done.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
It takes a village, and you know, listen, these are
divisive times, these are scary times. Just the idea that
he was wearing law enforcement clothing is just incredibly scary
in and of itself.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
And yeah, thank god, well done.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
I read that the senator and his wife that survived.
I read that he was shot seven times, seven times,
eight times.

Speaker 6 (35:07):
Yes, it is oh my god, absolute miracle and a
miracle for them to survive this.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
Wow, we don't know where he was caught yet, like
they haven't released that information that we love. They have
taken him into custody, which leads us to believe that
he is not dead, right, like he's alive.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
Right. It appears, Yes.

Speaker 6 (35:30):
It appears, but will update as stuff comes out over
the remainder of the show. We can provide updates when
and if they do come in because it's all happening.

Speaker 4 (35:40):
Now real time.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
I mean, yeah, that's a miracle for the survivors. And
also also the lone survivor on the India flight, so
many souls lost, and that one survivor and eleven a
you know, also a miracle. Such a tragedy, so much loss,
But there is a glimmer in that that we're sending
our prayers to all of lost loved.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Ones and I am sending all the well wishes that
from law enforcement that you know, found this guy, right
that they send all their good mojo to the Pacific
Northwest for Travis Decker.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
I hope that they find him. That makes sense.

Speaker 6 (36:14):
Yeah, Unfortunately, that man hunt is still going on. Travis
Decker has been accused of killing his three young daughters,
and US marshals and sheriff's officers, everyone's looking for this
man and hopefully he will be found.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, he's been and even his you know, ex wife,
the mother who has lost so much, she just lost
her three kids. She's even saying like it's impossible that
he wasn't having a mental health break in order to
commit these crimes like he is, you know, frankly disconnected
from reality, and that he was a loving father and
this just got so tragic. So again, more on this
to come, Joseph, you're sticking with us. We're going to

(36:53):
be breaking down, Diddy. We're going to talk about the
Palm Spring bombing into a deep dive there and then
also with following the new developments very closely as a
man is apprehended. This is true crime tonight. We're talking
true crime all the time. So we've been covering a

(37:18):
ton Karen Reid, etc. More on that to come. But
first we have a phone call. So caller Linda, welcome
to the show. What's your question?

Speaker 9 (37:28):
Yes, I was just curious what their thoughts were on
Rex Schuerman and all of the victims that have been
found so far. Do they think that the case is
coming close to an end or if there will be
victims ground like years to come. And then my other question,
thank you, And my other question is is there a

(37:51):
chance that he's being blamed for cass that he didn't do,
just so that the case can get closed.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
Yeah, that's a fair question. Yeah, I could jump in
on that real quick. Go for it, Go for it.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, I think those are really as few questions. You know,
Joseph can speak to the forensics. It does seem as
though there is some significant connective tissue between the various victims,
and there are still four that have not been identified,
specifically two Rex humer men Peaches is one that gets
spoken about very often in the two year old toddler.

(38:25):
Those are not connected quite yet, so we kind of
are remaining we're kind of waiting to see. Some of
them were found, as you may know, in these burlap bags,
and then others seemingly weren't. So there's some differences, and
therefore it's possible that this is a pile on right,
and maybe he didn't do all of these murders, and

(38:46):
maybe there's just more being piled on to him. I'm
sure Joseph, forensics wise, you have a feeling on this.

Speaker 5 (38:52):
Yeah. I mean, for me, you'd have to look at
I think from just a spatial stamdpoint point where these
bodies were deposited and in proximity to the individual that
has been accused here. That's going to be one of
the first steps I think that the investigators are going through,
and in addition to that any kind of circumstantial evidence

(39:14):
that they've been able to put together as far as
him being tracked. I think one of the curious things
about lists that the police allege are these collection of
burner phones that were utilized over a period of time.
And that's really hard to get passed when you begin
to point back to these poor women that have been

(39:35):
victimized and brutalized. For me, at least, you know that
someone would go to this trouble and he just happens
to have the burner phones that actually have their numbers
in them, you know, these escort services and that sort
of thing. So I think that's a bit of damning
information that interestingly enough, they're having to kind of resurrect
older forensic digital evidence to bring into this based upon

(39:57):
how far back these cases go.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
And with Grenda, that's a good question.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
That is a very clever one too, because you're right,
the phone stuff, that's really hard to explain away period
at the end.

Speaker 6 (40:09):
Right, Yeah, with the phones, I believe and correct me
if I'm wrong, Joseph, that not just were these burner
phones that rex Huerman had tied to the women, but
also it exactly mirrored where his main phone also went.
So wherever he and his phone went, so did the
burner phones. And that is tied together entirely.

Speaker 5 (40:31):
Yeah, and that's kind of fascinating because you can what's
really interesting. I covered a case out of a Mennonite,
young Mennonite woman that was kidnapped and tracked all the
way her phone and the kidnapper's phone who wound up
killing her. We're both simultaneously tracked going down the road
to Arizona where she was eventually found. And it's amazing

(40:51):
to tracking. You know, you might not be using your
phone you're not thinking about using your primary phone. But
for him, he's got this burner phone and these things
are traveling and hand them. Don't think about him. Just
think about these two dots on a map. You know
that they're kind of moving about. And again it's dispassionate,
you know, when you think about it, it's just fact.
And what a Dummy's really difficult to get.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
He goes to all the trouble get a burner phone
and then brings his regular phone to what a dummy?

Speaker 4 (41:18):
Yeah, I like its true acknowledge that as.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
A spade of spade, Yeah, he is a dummy, and
it's terrible and but thank god he's a dummy.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
That's the case allegedly.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Then at least there's a footprint to you know, lead
to you know, a conviction if in fact he's done this,
you know, Joseph. There's also, you know, so much speculation
just about you know, this case went unsolved for so so.

Speaker 4 (41:39):
Long, right, and maybe that there are many more.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
We heard very recently an author of one of the
books on the case says that he believes that there's
likely one hundred more victims possibly and you know, it's
hard to dispute that given that the victims that we
do have identified is really because the mothers, their moms
did not give up the fire, and they kind of
came together and really did this investigation and pushed and

(42:04):
pushed and pushed authorities, and thankfully they are getting closer
to some justice God willing.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
What do you think is going to happen next?

Speaker 5 (42:13):
Well, I think that if there are other cases, they're
going to begin to kind of lace these together. I
just don't know how significant the information is that they have,
because I would think that they would have kind of
coupled them or bundled them in a modern term in
cases to go that they had substantive forensic data to
tie them back where they have linkage to him. These

(42:34):
are the most solid ones that they have at this
point in time. What's going to be interesting though, if
any new bodies are discovered and in the wiles of
Long Island, along that roadway that I've driven up and down,
it's thick. You know, You've got these thick orders, you
know that leads you down through this marshy area. You've
got the ocean on one side and you've got water intrusion.

(42:57):
Things wash up, they go away, They come back. I
ever know what will happen in the future, but this
this appears to be a killing ground in there.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
It appears to be a killing ground and possibly then
some So yeah, we'll be we'll be following this much closer. Linda,
thank you for the call, and we seem to have
another welcome to the show.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
What's your question, Hi, Jenna.

Speaker 8 (43:16):
So I was wondering with Amazon coming out with a
new series One Night in Idaho premiering next month, and
you know, right before trial that's featuring family members and
potential witnesses that could be called at trial. How do
you think that could potentially impact seating an impartial jury?

Speaker 4 (43:36):
Such a good question.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
And all media has the potential to, you know, impact
the jury, right, Like we're all human, right, I just
I can't imagine that all this stuff coming out, Like
there's a book coming out like eleven days before the
trial starts. There's this documentary, and there's been countless other
you know, episodes of Dateline in twenty twenty and you know,
ad nauseum, right, there's been so much media this case.

(44:00):
I think it all could impact an impartial jury. However,
the State of Idaho, in their response to the defense's
motion for delay. You know, the defense is saying that
all this media is affecting their you know, Brian, and
he needs this delay. But the state is basically saying, no,
there's no amount of media that this case could get

(44:21):
where we could not see an impartial jury using individual worldoir.
So the state seems very confident that they're going to
be able to see an impartial jury. I'm not so
convinced personally. I think, you know, we're all humans and
we're all curious, right, We're all and especially if you
live in the area right that you might you might
be wanting to look up this case and you might

(44:41):
come you know, with all this, you know what I
consider to be like really prejudicial leaks that are coming
out because they all seem to really point at Brian
Koberger right as the person that did this. I mean that,
in my opinion, is super prejudicial.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
And you would have to assume too that the documentary
you're speaking about the I'm one. I just saw the
trailer as well, and I'm sure they're keeping it very impartial, right,
that's the point of a documentary we're making one. Also,
Joseph is incredible in it as well, and that's for peacock.
And look, part of the challenge is making sure that
you're not taking anything that has not been factually viable,

(45:19):
and that you're curating the junk from the real stuff.
And there's so much misinformation out there on the other
side of it, getting it out correctly and cleanly based
on that might actually be very helpful. And listen, the
news is on every day, right, so you can't avoid
seeing some of this information, which is why the trial
needs to happen sooner than later.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
In my opinion. Any delays, I think would just be terrible.
I would absolutely agree with you.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Thank you for your call, Jest, Thanks Jenna, thank you
for listening, and yeah, keep calling back.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
So we also have some updates in Diddy oh week
now your favorite subject, Stephanie Diddy seem great to be Are.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
You guys just missing talking about it day in and
day out. You've had little reprieve for a couple of weeks,
had a little reprieve.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
Well, there was some there was some stuff that happened
on Friday. You know, we weren't we don't have a
show Friday, so we weren't able to cover it.

Speaker 4 (46:10):
So we're gonna do that now.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
So Week five wrapped up after four like super intense
days with you know, Ditty's ex girlfriend Jane and that's
like a pseudonym. But on Friday, there were some brief
appearances by Kanye. Yeah, so get this right. So I
don't know what he was doing there. I don't know
if he was showing up so to show solidarity with

(46:31):
Diddy support. But he showed up with Ditty's son and
they wouldn't let him in the courtroom, so he had
to go to like the overflow room with like the peasants, right,
and didn't like that, so he left.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
He was only there for ten minutes, all just in white,
very angelic, you know. Our sourcing says that he was
there in support of Ditty. Their old friends and buds
like him, hate him. They they go along way back.
And yeah, he showed up. He got stuck in the
me your room for ten minutes and it wasn't a
vibe and he he left.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
It wasn't it was not the vibe.

Speaker 6 (47:06):
Stephanie, you say, dressed you know, all in white as
an angel, I would have rethought the wardrobe choices. I mean,
I just all I think about are those Hampton's all
white parties and white It's so true.

Speaker 4 (47:18):
That actually never occurred to me. That never occurred to me.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
I thought he was doing something slightly angelic to show
like this, you know, good versus evil, you know, black
clothing versus white clothing. Thing good point, Courtney, That's actually
very true. I hadn't occurred to me. One thing I
do think was very significant in the days leading up
to the weekend is this KK, Christina Koran being brought
into this case officially. You know, we've been talking about

(47:43):
this for a while. She goes by KK. That's also
Didy's like chief of staff. She used to be a
Bad Boys executive and then took over all things Diddy
and it it's kind of a key player in this
because if they can prove that she was in fact
a part of an enterprise that was coordinating and coercing
and a part of the cleanup, So it's the freak

(48:05):
offs and then it's the cover up, and it's the cleanup,
and it's the payoffs. If she was a part of
the payoff conversation to get that CNN video removed, where
did he was beating his then girlfriend? That's a thing
So in the meantime, Joseph, you've been doing a deep
dive and following this particular case in Palm Springs very closely.
So where should we begin fill us in.

Speaker 5 (48:27):
Well, I think that it's very important that we go
back to May, which when IVF Clinic in Palm Springs
was bombed. They identified a guy at that particular time,
I think it's Gary Barcus, and he sets off this
bomb in front of the IVF clinic in his vehicle

(48:48):
and just absolutely just blows the thing to pieces. That
a couple of people were injured inside, and of course
he died as a result of it. But as it
turns out, he had written manifesto, and contained within the
manifesto was his referencing of a young lady that a
month prior in April had been killed at the hand

(49:11):
of her boyfriend, a guy named Lars Nelson. Allegedly he
was arrested for this. But the interesting tie back here
is that I heard a term because I'm I'm actually
I've actually covered this on bodybags. I heard a term
I'd never heard before, and it was two pro mortalist
and anti natalist. I'd never heard this terms before. And

(49:35):
the idea was that, you know, life is miserable, we
don't need to procreate. And in addition to that, I
didn't ask to be born. That's kind of the I'd
never heard this before, and it was an interesting motivation.
I saw the anti natalist.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah, and this was this was a clinic that helped
people have babies, right like they did IVF treatment. Yeah,
and they had embryos on site and so they.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
Did, yeah, frozen embryos in this facility. And he goes
to this location to blow its pieces and of course,
you know, fortunately I guess no one was killed other
than the bomber, but bodiac. I tell you, one of the
things this is sturbed at this and I'd love to
hear your view of this, because I know that you
dig on manifestos. The scary thing about this, and I'm

(50:28):
just a forensics guy. Scary thing about this is that
are there other people? Because when somebody writes writes this
down and they're talking about that they have no value
in life and that you're better off dead, are there
other people that kind of adhere to this? And just
as a death investigate former death investigator, one of the

(50:50):
things that troubled me is that are there others lying
in wait, you know they're thinking about it, right, Well.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
There's got to be there's got to be some kind
of group that these people are in to discuss their beliefs, right,
And you mentioned in this manifesto, guy Bactus mentions this
lady Sophie almost said Cherry Sophie, and he says that
he that she is his best friend. Well, like you mentioned,

(51:17):
unfortunately Sophie her boyfriend called nine to one one and
said that she had committed suicide. Well, she had four
gunshot wounds to the head, which is literally impossible to
do if it's you're killing yourself, right, Like, nobody can
shoot themselves four times?

Speaker 4 (51:33):
What another done?

Speaker 5 (51:36):
No, I've had cases I worked. You know, my background
is I worked for the Corner in New Orleans and
for the Emmy in Atlanta, and and so I've had
people that have shot themselves multiple times. You have, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
I've had several of those cases where a bad placement
of the weapon, oh okay, or people will test. You'll
find people that will test our weapons. But can you

(51:59):
imagine the cops are rolling out on this and they
roll up to the scene and this guy's saying allegedly,
again he's spent charged. Allegedly, Yeah, my girlfriend killed herself,
and he's very just passionate about it. You know, in
the nine to one one call, she killed herself and
they walk in and you've got three spent casings on
the floor, which means this is a semi automatic weapon.

(52:20):
It had to be pulled at least three times, and
then one of the rounds had passed through and lodged
in the wall. This is not a suicide. And from
what we're kind of hearing, these are all headshots, and
so yeah, those are literally unsurvivable. I've had people shoot
themselves in the stomach and then turn the weapon on
themselves and shoot themselves in the head, but never never,

(52:42):
I wonder, in my experience, at least, never four or
three to the head.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
I wonder what the connection is between I don't know it. Yeah, well,
I mean between him did she know something? Did she
and he had to get rid of her. So I'm
on the same track with you. There's he is he
involved in this?

Speaker 5 (53:01):
And this is this is what this is what her
dad said, or her parents rather they're quoted, is actually
having said that she could literally get this guy to
do anything that she wished. And when I was putting
this together for my podcast, I was thinking, I wonder,

(53:24):
I wonder if he if this was a murder suicide thing,
and then he just you know, he doesn't have the
intestinal fortitude to go ahead and go through with it.
Maybe that was it. But I'm thinking, here's what I'm hoping.
I'm hoping because this is something that involves two jurisdictions.
You've got obviously California, and you've got Washington States, Fox

(53:45):
Island where Sophie died. Fox Island, Washington State's twelve hundred
miles away from Paul Strings. By the way, I'm hoping
the FEDS have gotten involved in this doing a deep
dive if there is some kind of subgroup that's out
there that's promoting this and that that it ends this tragically.
I'm really hoping Smite's got os on the same because
I gotta tell you, it's terrifying, and I hope that

(54:08):
there's no copycats out there.

Speaker 6 (54:10):
Yeah, Joseph, what are your thoughts on potential copycats?

Speaker 7 (54:14):
Is that just because this is such.

Speaker 6 (54:16):
A terrifying organizing principle, or is there it seems like
there's a likelihood.

Speaker 5 (54:22):
I don't know, it's it sounds like at least perhaps
well people look bought into to an ethos. I don't
know it's right. Just earlier this month, are there more?

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Just earlier this month, Daniel Park of Kent, Washington was
arrested on federal charges of providing material support to the
guy who did the bombing.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Guy barked this. He shipped bark this two.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Hundred and seventy pounds of ammonium nitrate, I mean, which
is the same which is the same stuff they used in.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
The Oklahoma bombing.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Is So there's there's some, there's some. I think there's
something there. I think you're absolutely right, Joseph, I think
there's something there. I really want to read this manifesto,
but it's not available.

Speaker 5 (55:08):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I know you. I think they
think the guy that actually sold this, that facilitated this,
I think they had to. They wound up tracking him down.
If I'm not mistaken in Europe. He may have been
in Germany. I'm not. That seems like I'm remembering that,
you know, going back to what she had mentioned about this,

(55:28):
the subtance that they choose chose to use. I had
a lot of friends that were with d mort which
is National Disaster Mortuary Service that response teams that worked
Oklahoma City. A lot of people forget about Oklahoma City
in the wake of nine to eleven and it was
horrible and to see the devastation that was done there

(55:49):
is almost unimaginable, I think. And that he had access
to this and he knew how to set it up.
And allegedly the guy in Palm Springs actually a fast
national fires and fire and explosives and things like this.
So it's terrifying. Yeah, are some specifically, Yeah, So it's
very terrifying.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
That's one of those predatory pre behaviors, right, that that
people have prior to causing a massive, massive, violent destruction.
And by all stretch of the imagination that happened here,
I mean he was he was identified through DNA from
his remains in the car. I mean he was tore up, right,

(56:31):
this was a huge explosion.

Speaker 5 (56:33):
This wasn't like it was a massive and I urge
anybody that has not seen the images and if they're
free to view, you know, you can see from any
of the news agencies the case really did not make
a big splash amazingly, uh, and it didn't. It didn't
have life in the media cycle. But now I hope
that it will, and I hope that there if there

(56:53):
are other people out there and anybody that hears this
is aware of this, a beg of you.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
How they caught I think how they caught that guy Park,
the guy that that was Incootes with him, was through
their online presence because they were they were talking on
online through you know, redded or four Chance, you know,
one of those one of those sites where you can
do that. I'm not saying that's where it happened, Please don't.
I'm I'm just guessing here.

Speaker 4 (57:20):
And they were.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
They were all in this, you know, anti natalist group,
and no human should be born without explicit consent basically,
and so one A good update though from that the
bombing is that all the embryos were saved, right, There
were no There were people injured, but nobody was killed
except for the driver who's a suspect, right, And all

(57:43):
the embryos were not even touched, like they everything passed
the mustard there. So that's good for the people that
are using those facilities.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
Yeah, I think that all of us can identify we've
all got dear friends probably that have long to have
a child, and the fact the fact that you would
go to a location where you've had these embryos is
a real tragedy. People are begging, you know that can't
have kids, that would love to have a child. And
that's what's really terrifying about this.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
For me at least complicated stuff.

Speaker 6 (58:16):
Yeah, and this whole movement. Thank you for bringing this
to our attention. Joseph, I'd never heard of the anti
natalist or pro mortalist beliefs, and just looking at a
couple of quotes from the manifesto quote the end goal
is for the truth to win, and once it does,
we can finally begin the process of sterilizing this planet
of the disease of life. I mean, this is really

(58:39):
dark stuff, but listen, very stick around. We have a
lot more ground that we will be covering tonight, Joseph.
Scott Morgan is going to be sticking with us. We're
going to be answering some of our questions. We have
so many forensics, we have Karen Reid, and we're turning
the mic over to you, so don't forget to call us.

Speaker 7 (59:01):
We're at eight eight eight.

Speaker 6 (59:02):
Three to one crime and we want to hear your
thoughts on Shandy Combs or really any of Tonight's stories.
So Gabe pit here on True Gruntz Night, we are
talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
So there have been a lot of breaking headlines, real
time happening that we want to share.

Speaker 4 (59:28):
Courtney. Where should we start.

Speaker 6 (59:29):
Well, we should start with the fact that the manhunt
is over and the suspect, Vance Luther Bolter has been
captured in Minnesota. This is for a crime that Governor
Tim Waltz called an act of targeted political violence. Michelle Hortman,
a Democrat, and her husband were very sadly killed in
a city near Minneapolis. John Hoffman, also a Democrat, and

(59:53):
his wife were shot several times at their home. But
both are stable and in fact, the wife you've at
hoff Men says she is quote. Our family is so
humbled by the love and outpouring from everyone. So Yovette
is able to communicate. Shocking since her husband was shot
nine times and she was shot eight times, and this

(01:00:16):
manhunt was ended while we were on the air, if
you were listening earlier, and a couple of things have
come to pass. The Hennepin County Sheriff She was actually
in tears when she confirmed the arrest of the suspect,
and she said, there is so much release relief that
the suspect was taken into custody peacefully, no injuries to him,

(01:00:38):
no injuries to officers involved.

Speaker 10 (01:00:41):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
I mean, talk about landing that plane so carefully. Law enforcement, Again,
we don't say it enough. Talk about putting your life
on the line going out, you know, chasing down somebody
who you know is a at large and dangerous and
you know could be anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:00:56):
This is again Father's Day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
You know how many men and women are going out
leaving their families and keeping us safe.

Speaker 6 (01:01:02):
So well done, Well done, And now we will go
to talk back on Karen Reid.

Speaker 11 (01:01:10):
Hi, my name is Renee. I'm in Santa Monica, and
I had a question about the Karen Reid trial. I
don't understand how they are charging her with murder because
I don't see how there is any evidence of intent
to kill him. Can you please explain the charges that
she is facing and what evidence they have put forward

(01:01:31):
to show that she intended for him to die.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
By the way, I think what you are describing is
the most important piece of this whole thing. She is
overcharged and incorrectly charged. And maybe that's part of the
Canton police is cover up air quotes allegedly. Maybe they
were just trying to pile on to get her on
a murder conviction when under no circumstances is that provable,

(01:01:55):
you know, regardless if you think she hit him or not.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
And you know, I don't think that even if she
did hit him, and I don't think she necessarily did,
I don't even think she realized it. Like there was
no intent here, there was no premeditation. I don't even think.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
I think she just was.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
I if this is, if my theory is correct, which
is you know that she backed up and scared him,
he jumped and slipped and fell something along those lines.
She wasn't intending to harm him in any capacity. I
think because he's a police officer, they totally overcharged him,
and I think it's going to be the state's downfall.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
I do too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
I just hear you say you didn't think that she
did it. Bodied are you changing in this hour, this
evening's time, Have you changed your vote?

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
No? I absolutely have not changed my vote. She's technically
if she if she backed up at twenty four miles
an hour and he thought she was going to hit him,
which might have happened had he not moved out of
the way.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
She's still guilty of filony manslaughter.

Speaker 6 (01:02:54):
Right, but the charges, and you'd ask specifically what they are,
it is second degree murder man slaughter while operating under
the influence and leaving the scene of personal injury and
death in connection with the death of of course her
boyfriend John O'Keefe. Thank you for that, and I believe
we have another talk back. Another Karen Reid question.

Speaker 7 (01:03:15):
Actually, I think.

Speaker 10 (01:03:17):
At one point that's not being talked about nearly enough
is the fact that Brian Higgins threw his phone out
at a military base. That is completely irrational unless you
have something to have.

Speaker 12 (01:03:29):
That is such a weird question. Yeah, that is really
I completely forgotten. That is a shady stuff, right, real
shady thing. I completely forgot about that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
Yeah, No, I did too. I until he until he
started talking. I was like, oh, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
And he drove like out of his way to the
space too, right, Like he went out of his way
to drive to this this this base and destroy his
cell phone.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
His cell phone wasn't like candied over in any reasonable
amount of time either. Yeah, that is a very good question.
And then look at we'll never know because the the
investigation was so messy that we'll actually never probably get
to the bottom of any of this. And I'm curious,
I'm curious what any of you think if there will
be additional charges placed in the event that she's found innocent.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
Yeah, if she's acquitted, do you guys think that the
commonwealth will charge somebody else? I'd love to know what
people think about that.

Speaker 7 (01:04:24):
One trial at a time. Number one.

Speaker 6 (01:04:26):
And then to answer the talk back, you know, I think,
why isn't it you know, how did it happen?

Speaker 7 (01:04:32):
What does it mean?

Speaker 6 (01:04:33):
I think this cover up runs wide and it runs deep,
and that is one piece of it, because why indeed
are you doing that unless it is to remove all evidence?

Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
Joseph?

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Can we talk some forensics?

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Can I just leaned very closely to you, Joseph. I'm
just going to start firing like boom boom, and you
know you can tell me what you think. How do
you feel that's about Brian Coberger My question? And Taylor
said in one of the doc and many documents that
she filed that there is a lack of DNA in

(01:05:10):
the in Brian Coberger's car that was found. Do you
think that this could just be a clever wording because
lack doesn't necessarily mean none, right, Or do you think
it's possible that he was able to clean up the
car that well, that there's no DNA in the car?

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
I think yeah. I think that he had a protracted
period of time with a car, even if he doesn't
know anything about forensics, and some people have tried to
paint him with some kind of mastermind. Just because you
drive a car doesn't make you a Nascar eraser, all right.

Speaker 4 (01:05:38):
Gerald McCollum tells me the same thing, just while you
have a.

Speaker 5 (01:05:42):
Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely, and so he's no, he's a criminologist.
There's a huge difference. And I resent people conflating the
tire and so yeah. So I think that he could
have had he could have had sufficient amount of time.
I've been on records saying that I felt as though
that that car, going back to what step said earlier

(01:06:04):
about you being on the phone with her, I felt
at that time the car would be a rolling crime
scene because you can't you can't excel from a location
like that with four bodies that have been subjected to
knife injuries and not be supersaturated with blood, and that's
going to transfer. I mean, that's the cart's principle. Every

(01:06:25):
contact leaves a trace, it's going to transfer into those
filthy cloth seats in there. How did he get it
sufficiently cleaned up or did he have barriers in place?
Did he take his clothes off before he got into
the vehicle, put him in a separate bag, you know,
the dickies cover all all right. We could go on
and on.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
The shower curtain, the shower curtain, Joseph, We talked about
this to nause him. It's such a scary detail. That's
really a little unknowable if it's accurate. There was apparently
no shower curtain in his apartment when it was air
quotes raided, and that led all of us to assume
or think perhaps that they took the shower curtain out

(01:07:03):
so he could wrap himself in it while driving away allegedly, allegedly, allegedly,
if he was being that clever and knew that he
would be covered in blood and needed a way to
escape cleanly, how can you do that?

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
One of the documents that just came out there. We
were presented with the selfie that he took in the
bathroom that morning, and if you look in the corner,
you can see like a liner that looks brand new.

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
Yeah, like it stills the folds in it, right, Yeah,
it looks.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Like it was in that fold that you get right
out of the packaging, you know. Also another haunting detail
that I just have been stuck on is that in
the hours after the murders, before the bodies were discovered,
according to this dateline leak, he had been calling home
to dad, to Brian Coburger was calling his beloved father

(01:07:56):
back in Pennsylvania. Those were pretty extensive calls in the
wee hours. So I bring this up simply to say, either,
it's so interesting that if you allegedly committed a murder
of four people, you're covered in blood, you're probably frantic
and manic.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
Is that the time that you call your dad.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
And hang on the phone for forty five minutes two
separate times, back to back.

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
Or is it because you're so manic? Are you confessing?

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Or are you just feeling like chatty Cathy because you
pulled something off and you don't know who else to call.
It also puts a lot of you know, suspicion into
Dad because you know, we know that he came and
picked up Brian and they drove infamously home together for
the holidays, got pulled over a few times.

Speaker 5 (01:08:39):
I don't think so yeah, yeah, boy. I'll tell you what,
if you've ever made the drive from the east coast
to the west, or from the west to the east,
you had a lot of time to contemplate a tom
if you will, And if you're with somebody in that car,
you know you're thinking about, you know, what went wrong,
what did I do? Or maybe you're just discussing, you know,
the upcoming hockey season. I have no idea, but that's

(01:09:02):
kind of an interesting top back. And then you got
the two stops in Indiana, you know where they're traveling
down the road, and so all of that has run
through my mind as well. That was an interesting fond
relative to this contact he had with Daddy in that
bit of that bit of time, I was fascinated by.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
I know, my heart, I feel for a parent, like
are they given this information and he's in the know,
or do you just you know, you just don't think
in a million years that your son or a child
is capable of something that's not where your brain goes.
It's a probably we won't know until trial. But sort
of this backdrop that we're seeing, and also the idea
that he was Brian Coberger allegedly was googling porn in

(01:09:45):
pornography specifically of people who were, you know, passed out
or drugged.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
Not great, not a great look.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
I wonder when I watch those the bodycam footage, I wonder,
is the knife in the car?

Speaker 4 (01:09:58):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (01:09:59):
Because, my goodness, that's all I wonder about that.

Speaker 5 (01:10:02):
I thought that could have been compelled. I thought that
maybe the state police had been compelled to do that
precise thing, to interview inside the vehicle. Yeah, oh no,
we'll see what happens. We'll see what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:10:14):
Know the judge mentioned apostle life. We'll get to that later.

Speaker 9 (01:10:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Last licks, anything on the forensics that we've been discussing
so far that we have left out so far.

Speaker 6 (01:10:25):
One question burns from me, Joseph, go get a court. Okay,
we start, Karen Reid, we got to bring it back.
What do you think, please share? What do you think
of the forensics in the case, whether it's John.

Speaker 7 (01:10:37):
O'Keefe's arm or his head. I want to hear what
you think about the arm.

Speaker 5 (01:10:41):
Okay, well, when the arm my first blush when I
was in the first time I ever talked about this
case was on Core TV. I came into it blind.
They just asked me to appear. And so when I
initially saw those injuries on his arm, my mind didn't
get a dog at that point in time. And this
was months and months and months ago. I hadn't heard
the full story at that point in time when I

(01:11:03):
saw his arm. Based upon car accidents that I worked
over the years, they look like they could have been
generated by an undercarriage of a vehicle and almost been
a defensive posture where your arm bends at the elbow,
which remember it's flex there. We think arm goes up
in a defensive pace. It's almost a primal response and
the underside of the vehicle kind of yeah, yeah, it's yeah,

(01:11:26):
and we we do that. There's a primal course us
that respond to things that kind of defend ourselves. And
so I thought he's knocked back and to do this,
he defends himself. The only thing though, is that I
have not been able to get a good answer, because
under the car is one of the filthiest areas anywhere,
and you would think that there'd be a lot of transfer,

(01:11:48):
you know, from the undercarriage of a car road dirt,
road grime. And I haven't. I haven't seen a.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
Lot of evidence of that, No evidence of that, actually, right, Like, yeah,
and that's problematic.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
Yeah, and what about.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
A little problematic that they didn't really go into the house.
So if a dead body is found at the bottom
of a street or the driveway of a home, it's
pretty standard to go and check out the home. No,
it seems as though like that didn't really happen quite
as thoroughly.

Speaker 5 (01:12:20):
I don't know. You get a warrant, you clear everybody
out of the house. You've got a dead body in
the front yard. You're getting out of the house. We're
getting statements from everybody, and we're going in and we're
going to take a look. And they should have known better.
They go on and on about cops, cops, cops, you
should know better. That's how the process works. This is

(01:12:40):
a death investigation. This wound up with a murder two
charge in addition to a vehicular manslaughter charge. Yeah, it
should have been done.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Thank you, josephare up in town exactly, Joseph, you tell
them who's boss. Joseph, You're going to come back with
us many many times. So final dips, because tomorrow we
might have a verdict in the Karen Reed trial. And
then obviously also the Diddy trial will continue every day

(01:13:09):
next week. It seems as though where are the celebrities
that we've been hearing about. Where are the celebrities the
revolving door of big ticket names. They seem to be
a no show other than Kanye. We'll get to that,
you know, more on that tomorrow. And then also these
latest developments in our hearts are with everybody on this
Father's Day, Joseph to you as well. It's been a

(01:13:31):
great show, so thank you everybody for joining us. Make
sure you tune in tomorrow. This is true crime tonight.
We're talking true crime all the time.