What Kohberger’s Hearing Could Mean for the Trial Ahead; Heuermann DNA Fight Could Push Trial to 2026 — Plus, a Juneteenth Conversation on Justice - True Crime Tonight

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It's Thursday, June nineteenth, Happy Juneteenth,
and we have a stack night with incredible headlines and
even greater guests. I'm so excited for tonight, So pull
up a proverbial chair. If you're just joining us, please
call us anytime eight eight eight three one crime, or

(00:40):
you could always hit us up on our socials at
True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, and at
True Crime Tonight on Facebook. But listen, we have the
best guest. We have Brian Enton, who's joining us from
News Nation. He's the senior correspondent there and if you
haven't been following him, he has been knee deep in
some of the biggest cases we've been talking about now

(01:01):
for weeks. So he's here to talk about Coburger and
Gabby Petito, so he has his night cut out for him.
And also later in the show, author an expert and
activist is going to join us for Juneteenth and share
some stories that are not being covered nearly enough in
the black and brown community. And his name is doctor William.
So before we go any further, I'm Stephanie Leidecker, I

(01:22):
head of KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts
and documentaries and I get to do that daily with
crime analyst Body move In and of course crime producer
Courtney Armstrong and ladies. I even so excited to get
to this night. I'm so happy that Brian is here,
and we have so much.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
To get through, I know, and I'm a little nervous.
I'm not gonna lie. Why are you nervous just because
it's news Daddy?

Speaker 4 (01:45):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (01:47):
So?

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Where does the name news Daddy come from? I guess
we'll have to ask Brian.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
And I don't even know he knows about it, and
I don't want to bring it up and I don't
want to embarrass him. But all the true crime girlies
basically really trust Brian. It's not a romantic thing, it's not,
you know, it's just we trust him. He's like in
all the cases that we're obsessed with, yeah, you know,
myself included, he hasn't looks down right. That's so true.
He's he's always there. He's always in every trial. He

(02:14):
has the breaking news. He's news daddy, and he's.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Really boots on the ground and gives it to you
straight and really cares.

Speaker 5 (02:21):
You know that.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
And I'm in the complete with the utmost respect. It's
not a degrading thing at all when I say that,
like it's but I'm nervous.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, Oh my goodness. I've never seen you nervous before, Courtney.
Are you nervous as well? I'm excited.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
I just think his coverage is amazing and burrough and measured,
and I'm excited to speak with him.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Listen, there's lots of cases to get through,
so of course, Karen Reid, there's been some new developments
there will unpack that. And then this Brian Coburger case,
the college murders in Idaho. There's been so many new
developments that I'm so excited to bring him into the convo. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
So the first thing to bring everybody kind of up
to speed is there was a hearing yesterday. There were
basically two hearings. One was open to the public, and
that was the hearing to determine if there would be
a continuance, which is a delay in the trial. You know,
the defense is basically saying that, well, not that basically
saying they are saying that, you know, they have an

(03:19):
incomplete review of all the discovery. There's so much evidence
they have to go through from you know, the state,
they have to go through everything. There's ongoing life history
and mitigation that they have to do, and it's taking a.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Really long time.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Expert witnesses haven't yet been identified for certain topics they
want to cover, and you know, prejudicial pre trial publicity,
you know, specifically the dateline. You know that we've been
talking about the week from dat line. And of course
there's new concerns about a James Patterson book that's coming
out sixteen days before jury selection.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
And unique to that, it's not so much that there's
a book coming out, but unique to that might be
that it's been reported that he spoke to grand jury,
which you know, that's that's unusual, right.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
It is not very unusual. So there's you know, I
think I think there's legitimate concerns. But Judge Hipler, he's
a great judge, and he heard all the arguments from
the defense. He has not ruled yet, but he did
indicate that he's I feel like he indicated he was
leaning toward keeping the trial date as is, you know,
August eleventh, he has We have not got the ruling yet.

(04:24):
Of course, it will be uploaded to the docket and
we'll all know about it, but it has not gotten
it yet. I would expect to have it by the
end of next week.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
And just and of case you're just joining us and
are not super familiar with this case. You know this
this tragedy in Idaho. Former PhD criminology student Brian Koberger
has been accused of fatally stabbing for University Idaho students
on November thirteenth and twenty twenty two. So it's been
several years now. Obviously it's a death sentence trial. This

(04:51):
trial is set to begin in August, and there have
been several delays along the way. At one point there
was a delay because the trial would have been sort
of across the street from a school, and they were
concerned that with all the press that would intermingle with
the students and that might get confusing. So they pushed
really small areas. It's a very small area, and an
area by the way that's been really through it. You know,

(05:12):
they've experienced extraordinary loss and it's brought a ton of
attention to the area. But you know, it's not the
kind of attention that anybody really wants, so it's complicated.
And then obviously the trial was moved. They moved locations
because the judge had ruled that Brian Coober may not
have gotten a fair trial right in the backyard where
the murders occurred, given all the press. So that's another delay,

(05:35):
and it's been delayed, delay, delay, all that. To be said,
this could cause another delay. I didn't think this stuff,
And again I defer it's a very different thing when
you're trying a death sentence trial, but experts things like that.
I feel like at this point that should be a
little locked up. I understand the new information, if there
was a leak or if there's new details to be

(05:55):
had about another perpetrator potentially, well, well there is.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
And that's the other hearing that's been going on is
the defense attorney Ann Taylor is saying that there is
an alternate suspect that she wants to present, and this
is the hearing that has been not open to the public,
So we really don't know what's going on.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
But that would be a huge right turn.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
Saying somebody else did it, or specifically, what she's saying
is two people potentially did it, there were two perpetrators
and trying to frame the accused Brian Coburger.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
So can we maybe ask the great Brian Enton, who
is with us to weigh in on some of this stuff.
We have young person who's been boots on the ground.
Obviously we made the podcast, we're making the doc. But
all that to be said, Brian has been there and
we've been following his coverage on all of these stories,
but specifically in Idaho it's been close to his heart. Brian,
can you hear us?

Speaker 6 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah, thank you guys so much for having me here,
of course. Yeah, you guys are so nice. I'm nervous now.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
You talked me up so.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Much, got just for you. I've literally never seen body nervous.
So she's literally a little blush right now. So it's beautiful,
and that is because we all follow your work and
you know, it's really it's really important stuff, and you
make it very understandable and you do it with kindness
and very ethically, and it really shows. So we're really

(07:14):
grateful to have you here. Brian Coberger's case is top
of mind and you were so close to it.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Maybe we should start there. Yeah, let's start there. So
let's let's just dig right in. What about this case?
This is body by the way, what about this case
sticks out to you like the most? Why do you
think we're all so fascinated by this case?

Speaker 6 (07:34):
Yeah? No, I was just saying, I just got back
from Idaho. I was there for the hearing yesterday, right,
But you asked what I think you know why people
are so obsessed with this case. I think it's just
because it was these innocent college kids, and we can
all relate to either being in college or having kids
in college, and just you know, the mystery of it
all in the beginning, when when there was you know,

(07:55):
no one knew who it was, and everyone was just
on edge for you know, more than a month, and
I think everybody just got everybody really amped up and
just so invested in it. And then learning more about
the victims and you just feel so terrible for them.
I mean, they were all such great kids, right, Yes,
different dreams and nice parents, and it's hard not to
really just sort of get pulled into the whole thing,
you know, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
Do, And like you know, I mean they were they
were they were going to bed at their most vulnerable
in this like monster comes in, right, And I think
that as women, right, I think we're all just basically
terrified of of that kind of thing and maybe somehow
put ourselves in those positions and we know we I
don't know, there's something there with it that I don't
I don't exactly know what it is. But every one

(08:38):
of my friends, every single one of my friends, they're
all women, are obsessed with this case.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Ever, say one of them, Yeah, I think too. It's
just the idea of it being somebody without a close connection, right,
given that it's not somebody who's obviously in an orbit
or you know, we cover so many stories and it's
you know, money, revenge, there's you know, there's some motive
connected tissue that allows for there to be a motive,
and this one being so nebulous in that regard, I

(09:05):
think has just made it a little extra scary for everybody.

Speaker 5 (09:08):
Right.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
And there's been no more to established yet either, too,
So we're still waiting for that, right, We're still waiting
to find out what the motive was.

Speaker 6 (09:15):
Yeah, and I think too, like early on, you know,
the fact that the victims, the kids, were so active
on social media right away we got a sense of
who they were. You know, there were so many videos
of them, and I don't know, I think people just
connected to them. And and the fact that it was
just this little quaint college town in Idaho where nothing
ever happens. It's like the safest place in the world,
you know. It just I don't know, I think it

(09:37):
was just it was just such a mystery.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
It's a tragedy that we just can't wrap our head around. Now,
let me let me ask you the real tea. All right,
this door dash footage or the door dash driver. You
recently reported on it, We did as well, and you know,
we kind of hesitated.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
We weren't sure.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
You know, we were actually one of the first to
report on it to be you know, to fluff our
chest a little bit. But how how how do you
feel about that that story? Like did you did you?
Did you hesitate?

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Were you?

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Were you confident in it? What do you think it
means moving forward for the trial? Is it going to
affect anything? I have a lot of questions. Yes, and
that was a lot to fire you you at once.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
But how does I feel about it?

Speaker 6 (10:16):
I'm normally pretty careful with things, kind of like you guys,
like you were saying. I mean, there are things that
I'll hear or even that i'll confirm that I won't
necessarily report, just because I try to be careful and respectful,
and you know, I only want to put stuff out
there that I know is like one hundred percent correct.
I don't want to do anything to you know, compromise
the trial coming up or you know, I'm just really

(10:37):
really careful about those things.

Speaker 5 (10:39):
You know.

Speaker 6 (10:39):
So, But in terms of the the door dash I Rember.
You know, we knew that there was this door dress
driver for a while. It showed up in the in
some of the court documents, you know, more than a
year ago, and that she was identified as MMMM, and
we were trying to find her. I was trying to
find her in Moscow for a while and I and
I never could.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, I think everybody guy too.

Speaker 6 (11:01):
There's so many door dash drivers and like people have,
you know, do it as a side hustle, and it's
like it was so hard. I remember, it was like
going into different hotels in Moscow and be like, do
you guys know, like who the doorg has? You know,
everybody kind of knows everybody there, And I thought maybe
I remember one time I finally got a lead. Oh yeah,
like I know who it is, but then it didn't
turn out being the right person. So anyway, we've known
that this person like exists and that they delivered that

(11:24):
she delivered door dash at four am, which is like
about ten minutes before the murders, but never that you know,
she claimed to have actually seen Brian Coberger and parked
next to Brian Coberger. Both of those things like are
huge if true.

Speaker 4 (11:39):
We are pins and needles and cannot wait to hear
the rest of this after the break. Also, we're going
to have author and activist doctor Williams join us for Juneteenth.
Keep it here on True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
We have Brian Enton here. You'll know him of course
from News Nation. His incredible on the ground reporting in
the Brian Coberger Idaho College murders has really been next
level as well as her coverage Brian, I know you
can hear us in the Gabby Patito case, which we
want to get to as well. But back to the
Idaho College murders. If you're just joining us, you'll know

(12:20):
that PhD student Brian Coberger has been accused of fatally
stabbing and killing for Idaho College students, and that trial
is this summer. It's a death sentenced trial. The stakes
are very high and it's really getting controversial at this point. So, Brian,
I know, we were just talking about the door dash
footage and its relevance. And I also had some questions

(12:41):
about the hearing you were just at yesterday. Do you
want to talk DoorDash or the hearing?

Speaker 6 (12:46):
You know, if it's true what this DoorDash driver saying
that she actually saw Brian Coburger at the house just
you know, minutes before the murders, and she said that
she parked next to him, which I found to be
really interesting because more DoorDash drivers park in the front
of the house or in the driveway, or they pull
over and put their flashers on right in front, which
would mean if what she's saying is true, you know,

(13:08):
did Brian Coberger just park right in front of the house. So,
you know, I think we're just gonna have to wait
and see. The whole thing is strange the way it
came out of this body camera video. You know, the
DoorDash driver got pulled over for biotag and the suspicion
of Dui, and that's sort of when she spilled all
this to the cop last year. So I take it
kind of with a grain of salt at this point,
but it's true. I think it'll be a big deal.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, same, And chances are, you know, the prosecution maybe
even and the defense might know about it. You know,
whether we knowing us knowing about it now is is
right or wrong? Who's to say, But obviously it's being
covered so widely. You know, I'm so curious because you've
been in the courtroom, including just yesterday at the hearing
that it's a very important hearing talking about getting another
delay in the trial. What is it like? You know,

(13:51):
how does the accuse Brian Coburger. Is there anything you
can share about how he seems?

Speaker 6 (13:56):
It's really weird being in the courtroom, like just having
covered from the beginning and knowing everything that the victim's
families have been through, and especially in Moscow, like I
it was such a small court room there, you like
four or five feet away from him, but yeah, I
saw him again. Yesterday in court. You know, he in
the beginning he was much more like stone cold. I
felt like when I first sawhim in Pennsylvania when he

(14:17):
got arrested, and then when he first got back to Moscow,
it's kind of like he's gotten a little more like comfortable.
It's always a little weird because you know, we get
in there early, and he's in there just with his
lawyers and the judge. He usually doesn't come in for
like ten minutes. Yeah, And I always just find it
weird watching him because he kind of liked has small
talk for like ten minutes with the lawyers and they
kind of like will like laugh together, and they'll kind

(14:39):
of like put their hands on his shoulders, and it's
like this very like kind of almost skiddy, like just
fun talk before the hearing starts. And I always just
find that to just be so weird when you think
about what he's accused of, and you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Like you think, even just from an objects perspective, you
would just kind of be very serious and sullen because
you know, it's such a terrible thing everyone's there to
go through.

Speaker 6 (15:01):
Yeah, I think maybe this the you know, if the
strategy there and granted there's no jury obviously yet, but
I've seen this in other cases, like sometimes lawyers will
try to humanize their client if there's someone accused of
something so brutal, as when you see the lawyers like
touching him on the shoulder and you seem smiling, you're
like kind of show I think they're thinking maybe it
shows like a different side of him, like if the

(15:21):
cameras are on that kind of thing. That's just my theory.
I don't know if that's what they're doing, but it's
always just kind of weird seeing that and also just
kind of staring at him and knowing what he's like
accused of.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
I have a question too about the dad. So, Brian
Coberger's dad, for whatever reason, sits in my head, you know,
it like haunts my sleep somehow, and you know, and
it's for two reasons. One, it seems like from what
we know we've been able to glean and jump in
if you've heard differently, you know, his parents seem really nice.
You know, his dad loved him and they stand by him.

(15:51):
And of course Brian Coberger, the accused, clams his innocence,
it appears his family has been standing by him. As well.
You know, we always see that crossy trip after the
murders when Brian Coburger was returning home for the holiday
and his dad was, you know, driving with him across
multiple states, and we've all seen that body cam footage
of them getting pulled over. You know, you always wonder

(16:13):
what was that car ride, Like, you know, if if
in fact he is guilty, was there a confession. If
he's innocent, is was dad you know, at all clewed in?
It's every parent's worst nightmare, right And now we know,
based on this date line leak that or the dateline
information that we've seen very recently, that hours after the
murders he called Dad for extended periods of time. Do

(16:35):
you make anything of that? Have you seen the family
at all?

Speaker 6 (16:37):
So the only time I saw them in court in Pennsylvania,
right after he got arrested, they showed up to his
first appearance. I actually went to their house right at
like I got a tip about the arrest and I
like raced to Pennsylvania before it was kind of widely reported.
And they lived in this like gated community kind of
in the mountains, like in the Poconos. And I still

(16:59):
feel like kind of shady telling the story.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
But I don't know me.

Speaker 6 (17:04):
Yeah, Like basically, this lady on Twitter texted me and
it was or messaged me and it was like, I
actually live in the same neighborhood as them. If you
meet me at the gas station, I'll bring you in
the neighborhood. So I met her and she brought me in,
and I was just very aggressive in that moment because
he had just been arrested and like, these were the
parents and he was arrested at that house. It's very dark,
like each house is on like an acre and it's

(17:25):
it's very country and there wasn't like street lights. It
was very dark when I got in there, and I
went up to their door and the whole front door
was shattered because the police had busted in, so it
was still shattered. And I knocked on the door and
I videoed it and like they just yelled like go away,
go away, And I put that video out and I
got like a lot of heat for which kind of

(17:46):
looking back, I do feel kind of bad because it
was like, you know, they're not you know, they're obviously
not like a few killers. They're just his parents.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Get their neighborhood.

Speaker 6 (17:55):
Yeah, So I felt a little guilty about it, but
you just never know, Like a lot of times you'll
go to people's doors and like they will want to talk,
you know, and so unless you try. But that's the
only time I've seen them at the door. And then
also in court in Pennsylvania. They haven't been to Idaho.
I know through sources, they haven't visited him in person.
They've talked to him on the phone, but they've never

(18:17):
gone to visit him in person. I from from the
sources that I have, like, I think they're having some
financial problems, and so you know, money to get out
there is kind of an issue, and money to get
out there during the trials is going to be an issue.
So you know, I feel for them. I mean, there's
there's never been any evidence connecting them to any of
their you knows.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
And by the way, if my son was accused of something,
or my loved one is accused of something, or my brother,
I would want you to knock on my door so
I can scream that from the rooftops. Right. You want
to get the word out because if my you know,
family member didn't do it, then there's somebody still at large,
you know, So you have to sort of give them
the platform at the bare minimum. Yeah, you have to try.

Speaker 5 (18:57):
You have to always try.

Speaker 6 (18:58):
That's why, I mean I'm not always comfort doing that.
And also like victims too, like family members of victims,
you always have to be so careful. But you know,
a lot of times people want to share their stories,
so you just you kind of have to like go
into that zone where it's not so comfortable, but you
just kind of make yourself try.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well, you do such a.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Good job at it, like you I'm sure you already
know this, but you're very respected in the true crime community,
like your coverage. Your coverage is something that we kind
of rely on for a lot of things. Yeah, and
so you do a good job. I mean I think
you do.

Speaker 6 (19:26):
I really try. I mean I try to be respectful
as much as I can. And just like you know,
at the end of the day, you have to be
able to sleep at night. And so it's like, I
don't ever want to do anything to make like a
victim's family their situation worse or them feel worse, you know.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, and that's something that we always struggle with, you know,
in this job, right, It's it's hard, it's hard, but
it's something that has to be done. I mean, people
need to know these kinds of things. So I think,
I just you do a great job. But I think
the sister, though Brian's sister knew something was going on.
I mean just from reading every one and every doc

(20:00):
that's been published by the court kind of gives us
that impression. And I think I think that's probably why
she didn't go to the first hearing in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Meaningful it could be and I thinks correct, yeah.

Speaker 6 (20:12):
Yeah, And I think Dateline they reported that I think
one of the sisters was suspicious, and I know, like
one of the sisters lost her job, which I reported
on because of like just you know who her brother was,
so and it's been difficult for them. I mean, I'd
imagine there were some weird things like you know, him
wearing the gloves and taking the trash out, all the

(20:32):
weird things that were happening at the parents' house. Maybe
one of the sisters thought something was up, you.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Know, well, and the knife got delivered to their home.

Speaker 6 (20:40):
Yeah that too, Yeah, right, yeah, right. I think because
I think what they have to figure out is a
lot of this stuff was was was charged on, Like
the family Amazon account. So I think that's one of
the reasons that the family is going to have to
testify to basically be like, are you the one who
ordered the knife? Are you the one who did visited
that way? When they say no, they can kind of

(21:01):
narrow it down to, you know what it must have been, Brian.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Right, brutal, Like even just as a sister, you know,
I have brothers. I couldn't imagine anything harder than having
to testify in a way that might harm a family member,
you know, even even one that is being accused of
something so vicious. Hopefully you don't you know, you can't
assume that that's accurate. Tough stuff. Yeah, really, what do
we expect next? What's your Do you have any predictions

(21:25):
you want to share with us?

Speaker 6 (21:26):
Well, you know, so the hearing yesterday, the judge pretty
much indicated that he doesn't want to delay the trial.
He didn't issue the final order like you said, but
he I think it's not going to get delayed. So
we might not even have another hearing until jury selection,
which is the beginning of August. And then the fact
is supposed to be a three month trial, I mean
actually three months, Yeah, three months and you've got the

(21:48):
families getting Airbnbs, and the Coburgers are supposed to be there,
So it's going to be really really intense, I think.
And I think there's there's just been this gag order,
and even though you know, leaks have come out in
the eight line episode and other scoops that people have had,
I think there's still so much we don't know that
the prosecution has. That's just because we haven't had access

(22:09):
to most of the documents. Like, I think there's going
to be just be a lot of bombshells during the trial,
like the stuff that just we haven't heard yet.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
I do too, I absolutely do. I mean there has
to be. I mean I think I think the door
dash would have been one, but now that we know
about it, it's not really I mean, I think we
all we always suspected, right sluice out there. We've always
suspected that the DoorDash driver saw him, and that's why
she was like the informant, basically like the protected witness,
you know, because it really puts her in danger if

(22:38):
her name is out there. And so I think I
think that was going to be one of the bombshells.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
But now that we already.

Speaker 6 (22:46):
Did you know her dad was murdered, her husband I'm sorry, Yes, terrible, terrible,
terrible prosecutor for Coburger he did. Yes.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
Coming up, Brian Nton is going to fill us in
on a major k he's directly involved with. Author and
activist doctor Jhuro Williams joined us for Juneteenth. Stay tuned
right here through Grime tonight.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
We have been talking about the Brian Coburger case in
the Idaho college murders, and Brian, we're just going to
jump right in because there's so many cases that we
kind of want to dump on you. We definitely want
to still get to Gaba Patito, but I also know
you've been following so closely the Minnesota case and the
tragedy that happened there, and of course the search for
Travis Decker, and you know those are both real time

(23:39):
breaking stories. So we want to make sure we hit
that first. Minnesota you've been on so closely.

Speaker 6 (23:44):
Yeah, I was there for the whole man hunt. I
went there on Saturday right after it happened, and was
there was crazy with the guy on the run, and
you know, I went out to we were out in
the country like an hour outside Minneapolis, near where his
house was, where they had like ten swat teams and
they closed the whole area down, and people thought maybe
he ran to Canada, but then we thought that he was,
that he was still in that area, and it was crazy.

(24:05):
I was out there. He got he got caught just
like a mile from his from his house. And it's
just awful. I mean, just the you know, the poor,
the lawmakers, I mean Representative Hortman, the woman who was
shot and killed along with her husband. It's just a terrible,
terrible story. And then the senator, the state senator who
was shot nine times and survived, and his wife was

(24:25):
shot eight times. This guy was dressed as a cop
and shined We found out that when he got to
the door, he said police, police, and he and he
had that creepy latex mask on and he shined the
flashlight and did you guys see that mask, by the way.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, it literally keeps me up at night. It's the
scariest image imaginable, frankly.

Speaker 6 (24:43):
And he shined the flashlight in their eyes so they
couldn't really see him that well, and said police, police,
has been a robbery. And they let him in. And
then when he moved the flashlight. It was the wife
I found out who said, like, you're not a real
police officer, and that's kind of when, you know, when
he started shooting.

Speaker 5 (24:58):
So there was.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
This this is how I'm so glad you're here. We
want to like just you know, keep you forever at
this point. So you know, since then, you know, you
have reported on this as well, that there had been
a break in at the same location. We talked about
it a bit last night. You know, obviously these tragic
murders happened, and attempted murders happened. You know, people who
are working and dedicating their lives to politics and our government.

(25:20):
What do you make of this break in that happened
right after?

Speaker 6 (25:24):
Yeah, super weird. That was at the representative of Melissa
Hortman's house. I was out there. They had the whole
house boarded up because like there was this shootout between
the police and the suspect there and like it all
the windows got shot out, and it's just really just
nice suburban neighborhood. The neighbors were so nice, Like the
whole Minnesota nice slogan is totally true, Like keep you're

(25:45):
totally accurate. Like other crime scene you go to, They're like,
get out of our neighborhood. They these people were like
coming with their dogs and being so nice to the UK.
So they had yes, yeah, exactly. So they had everything
boarded up because it was all shot out and uh,
and they finished prosing the crime scene, and then we
found out yesterday morning someone broke in through the back,

(26:05):
pulled off one of the boards, searched the whole house,
but didn't take anything, which I just think is so weird. Yeah,
Like I don't want to like be like get into
conspiracies or anything, but I'm just wondering, like what was
the motivation there? And so then today I tweeted some
video from one of the neighbors who I become friends
with sent it to me. They put this like fencing.

(26:26):
Now the police department came out and almost like you'd
see it like a riot, like we you see like
they put outside the White house like that really tall
metal caperraary fencing they've now put all the way around
the house like in this suburban neighborhood. It's so bizarre,
what a mess.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
And you would have thought, you know, we had discussed
this a little bit last night because yes, you know,
I we're not going down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole,
I promise, But I get a little like I have
like a spidy sense that something doesn't add up. You know,
why would you go to an active crime scene and
break in knowing that this was like a very big scene.
People are probably paying attention. It seems like the one

(27:03):
place you wouldn't go, especially if you weren't going to
steal anything. That actually seems like they were rummaging or
looking for something specific or am I just being nuts?

Speaker 6 (27:12):
No, everybody, I think you're right, And there's something weird
about this. This suspects Vance Belter, Like there's just you know,
you as a reporter, you get this sense. Like I
went to court for him too, I saw him in person,
and there's just like something doesn't add up. Like he
said he didn't have any money in court, needed a
public defender, and was only making five hundred dollars a week.
But then like his house is paid for, that's half

(27:33):
a million dollars, and he has seven vehicles that are
paid for. Yeah, and he had thirty thousand savors and
he've had money to buy the fake police cars.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
And his wife took out forty pevens.

Speaker 6 (27:42):
Yeah, so like I'm just like, wait, wait, how do
you not have any money? Like I don't. There's just
something weird with the family. And then he's got the
apartment that he saved a couple of nights from the city,
even though it's only like forty five minutes from his house,
but he doesn't have a job in the city. Like
and the weird roommate. I don't know if you guys
saw that roommate who kept doing the.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Interview roommate that I stop crying on the porch.

Speaker 6 (28:01):
Yeah, so like basically anybody who showed up, you'd do
an interview, which is like, you know, you did like
fifty interviews, and.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I know, I think I saw forty nine interviews.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
We are all on the same page though, like we're
not like conspiracy theorists in any capacity.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
But last night I'm like, this is weird. I was
like nervous and losing my mind. And if I was
the neighbors, you know, please tell your friend that's the
neighbor there, like you know, lock the doors. Something doesn't
seem right.

Speaker 6 (28:25):
Yeah, I think there's something more to this story. Like
I mean, like I said, not some crazy conspiracy, but
just like, is there someone else maybe involved? There's just
I don't know, something doesn't add up with the whole thing,
you know, I.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Think that's exactly right.

Speaker 4 (28:38):
Speaking of Brian, wanted to ask you about Travis Decker.
So that's the case where he's a thirty one thirty
two year old father of three who's accused of murdering
his three daughters, and you have been there covering the
man hunt. Can you tell us what that's been like
and specifically I saw your TikTok today. Are people potentially
helping Travis Decker?

Speaker 6 (29:00):
Yeah, this has gone on way longer than I would
have expected, Like we're now in three weeks. I thought
maybe he took his own life initially just based on
like killing him. I mean, I mean he killed the
three kids. This awful, like strange, I mean, the stuffocation
just awful. And then though then there was this spotting
of you know, there was hikers out there that saw

(29:22):
another hiker a man who was trying to avoid them,
which is really weird, and the Sheriff's office put up
the helicopter and the guy was trying to avoid the helicopter,
which they never said for sure that that was Travis Decker,
but it just that made me think, Okay, maybe he
is alive. And then we the sheriff was on News
Nation yesterday and was just kind of weird, like he
didn't he didn't fully come out and say we think

(29:43):
he's getting help, but he said something like, well, people
shouldn't be sympathizing with him and you know, maybe helping him,
but wouldn't really elaborate, which behind them made me think
like do they know something behind the scenes, like someone
out there is aiding him and you know, staying on
the run. So that's a very very weird. Another very
very weird one.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yes, yeah, And do you know much about his wife?
You know, our hearts obviously go out and you know, look,
this was a veteran, he served our country. He was
in Afghanistan. He struggled with, you know, with some stuff
period the end, and our hearts are just so with
the mom who you know, she's been through unimaginable loss.

Speaker 6 (30:21):
Oh well yeah, and she's got to go fund me
and she I mean, you look at the pictures of
her with her daughters and she's lost everything and it
is unimaginable and there was it doesn't sound like I mean,
he obviously had mental health issues and was homeless, but
from what I've learned, I mean, there were no red
flags that he ever wanted to hurt his daughters. So
you know, the mom had no idea that this, There

(30:43):
was no you know, this wasn't on her radar, and
he always returned them. He didn't have like overnight visitation,
but he had these, you know, like daytime visitations and
he always brought them back at the right time and
that kind of thing. So I think she was caught
totally off guard, and she It's interesting she hasn't really
like set off things about him, you know what I mean,
Like I think, I know she hasn't yet. No, not

(31:04):
that she feels bad for him, but like, I think
she's probably in shock. And also, like, clearly something just
went very wrong with this man.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
You know exactly, he was struggling with mental health issues
and was not medicated correctly or was not keeping up
with his medication from what we've read, And again that
doesn't mean this is not an excuse for what he's done,
but he was struggling, and it does. It appears to
me too. Whenever I've seen interviews or anything, I've read
about her that she's you know, there's a part of
her that's probably a bit empathetic and then also really

(31:34):
mad because she was raising her hand and asking for help,
and you know, this was a help that needed to
be given. And I think that's why it's so important
that we're talking about it.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah, I wonder if the male blood they found, like
on the tailgate of that truck, of Travis Jecker's truck,
they said it was male human blood, right, I kind
of wonder if that's something to do with want they
haven't found him yet, Like, and initially I thought, Okay,
he like attempts did something on himself, right, and like
chickened out, That's what I initially thought, and he ran

(32:04):
off into the woods or whatever to do it again.
I kind of wonder if maybe because you and I
kind of thought he might have killed himself. And I
kind of think maybe if I wonder if we were
right initially.

Speaker 6 (32:15):
And see and we might I mean, we might still
be right. I mean, there could have just been someone
else hiking out there that you know the scar you know,
or yeah, or like committed a burglary or something and
is trying to hide from the point I mean, only thing.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Is though, is that the sheriff was so confident and
like the US Marshalls are in are involved in this,
they're like the best, you know, they're.

Speaker 6 (32:36):
And I think that even called it the National Guard
too to help at one point.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
That's right, they did.

Speaker 6 (32:41):
So they obviously I think they probably know some things
that they're not saying publicly. And I think yesterday when
the sheriff said that about people you know, shouldn't be
sympathizing and how it's wanting to help him, like, I
just think he kind of slept a little. Maybe there's
something there.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, I think he might be right.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah, I wonder if he tried to like maybe get
over or you know, maybe hitchhiking or something, trying to
get over to Canada.

Speaker 6 (33:03):
Or something like that. I think you're absolutely right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
But not knowing it was, you know, this murderer, right,
just like a guy hitchhiking.

Speaker 6 (33:10):
Yeah, totally. And then a lot of the pictures he
looks like a you know, kind of normal guy. I mean,
you know you wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah, And it depends on what picture you're looking at, though,
Like he looks different in every picture.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
It's great.

Speaker 6 (33:21):
Yeah, I know you're right, and then they released three photos.
I don't know if you saw this where they like
manipulated the photos to show what he might look like.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Now, yes, that's unrecognizable in all three versions of his haircuts.
You know, right, right, it's kind of alarming. Actually, how bad?
How many frequent flyers do you have? It sounds like
you're on an airplane rushing to these stories day in
day out.

Speaker 6 (33:45):
Yeah, yeah, I'm always. I'm on the plane like every
week pretty much. It's hard to stay on top of
them as I try to like just sort of pick
ones that I can really like invest a lot of
time into and just not hop.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
In and lead.

Speaker 6 (33:59):
You know, like there's something like hearing me for example,
like I never really covered Karen read just because I
didn't I was so busy with Idaho or I was
so busy with something else. It's like, I want to
really give it. If I'm gonna do it, I want
to like give it my all.

Speaker 4 (34:09):
You know, well, you certainly do give it your all
and listen. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. Everybody.
Please follow him on x at Brian Enton or on
News Nation for the latest headlines. Brian gives it to
U Street and knows everything.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thank you for coming, Brian, and yeah, we still have
so much more to get through. We didn't even get
to get by Petita with Brian Entin, so still do
have to have him back. She's gonna have to join
us back. And we also have author and activist doctor
Williams is here to kind of shed some light on
some of the black and brown cases that are not
getting nearly enough attention. Yeah, so, Courtney, we have a call,

(34:45):
We have a talkback right now. Should we run to that.
Let's go to the caller who's hanging on the line, Kristin.

Speaker 6 (34:51):
Yeah, Hill, I'm so disappointed.

Speaker 7 (34:53):
I wanted to tell Brian that my True crime podcast discord. Uh,
we call him news Daddy, but he's not there, so
I'm going.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Oh, but he's listening. He's listening to you. So you
say it loud, say it clear. We will make sure
he hears.

Speaker 6 (35:10):
It, news Daddy.

Speaker 7 (35:13):
My question is, do you guys think that there could
be a connection between Ted Bundy's Kyomega murders and the
Idaho four because there are a lot of similarities.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
They're sure are We were actually just doing a bit
of a deep dive in this we were kind of
doing a bit of a comparison, and this is you're
kind of in our heads a little bit, because I mean, look,
Brian Coberger was a PhD student, So if you're studying criminology,
of course you're going to study some of these big
cases and frankly these big killers like Bundy, et cetera.

(35:47):
But there does seem to be some crossover. Is it
a copycat of sorts?

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Well, and you know you have Kyomega, right, the Kyomega thing,
And then I just I haven't really dug too far
into this, but I've been hearing something that I didn't
know about Ted Bundy, and that's he said something to
one of his victims, something like I'm.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Here to help.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Yeah, but I don't remember the context in which this
was told to me, so I need to go and
revisit it. But I yeah, something along those lines. Have
you heard that?

Speaker 4 (36:20):
I also, you know, I think it's such a great question,
and listen, we don't know. Brian Coburger is accused has
not yet stood trial for murdering the four poor students
at the University of Idaho, but the similarities it would
not be so surprising because a lot of killers, they
copycat and they learn and they almost revere and repeat, right,

(36:43):
And that has happened over many different people.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
So yeah, I mean listen to the other obvious connections
would be that like Ted Bundy, Brian Coburger, the accused
allegedly didn't know anybody, right, so this was these were
you know, students said, he perhaps if what we're hearing
is that maybe fixated on And again it's not because
he was hanging with them or was dating one of
them and they had a terrible breakup, not that that

(37:07):
would justify any of this, but you know, typically we
see that there's some sort of connective tissue. It's rare
for random people to regularly murder like that. I mean,
that's why we talk about it so much, because it's
a little bit like a great white shark in that regard, right.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
And you know, and I think again, because we don't
have the motive, and I don't know that we're ever
going to and I don't know if I can live
with that. That's so fair, you know, like when things
don't make sense to me, I struggle with it. Like
if we don't find a motive, I don't know, I
just don't know. How the families can even like you

(37:43):
have to make sense of things, you have to like
compartmentalize things in your head, and I just don't know
that we're ever going to get that.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Well, thank you for the great question. Keep listening, and
please stay with us because we're also going to be
talking a bit more about the Travis Decker case. Also
will be joined by author and activist doctor Williams, who's
joining us for juneteenth True Crime Tonight, we're talking true
crime all the time. We are about to dig into

(38:15):
even more craziness in the Rex Humorman Long Island serial
killer case. Some updates there to explore. What do you
think I mean?

Speaker 4 (38:24):
I was a little disappointed when I heard that apparently
the trial for Rex Humorman likely won't begin until twenty
twenty six at the earliest. So Humeerman was arrested on
suspicion of being the Long Island serial killer, a man
alleged to have potentially murdered eleven people. He has been

(38:48):
specifically linked to seven of the murders. But it looks
like things are pushing and this comes after also a
contentious DNA hearing that wrapped up yesterday. So what's going
on and there's going to be a continuance in July
July seventeen, specifically, but I think a lot needs to
be ironed.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Out before July seven to trial.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
Correct, and that's going to be July seventeenth is going
to continue the DNA fry hearing.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Okay, super interesting stuff. I mean we talked about this
a little bit last night. You know, Rex Humor in
the accused has a wife and two children. They were
recently on the documentary on Peacock called The Gilgo Beach
Killer The House of Secrets, And if you haven't watched it,
it's really worth a worth a look because it's interesting
just to be a little bit in the behive and

(39:38):
hear from his wife kind of her take on it.
And I'm from inside the home exactly, and I'm so
curious if she's watched her interview back when it aired,
and if it's given any you know, new direction in
her mind or you know, has you know, has that
cemented her belief in him, because you know, she feels
pretty devoted. Yeah, but they're getting a divorce, Yeah, but

(40:00):
that might also be for financial I think it's for that,
because yes, getting a divorce, but still talking about loving
him and authentically interested in the fact.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
That he had a hamburger and mashed potatoes for dinner.
And I'm quoting from a phone conversation in the documentary,
so there seems to be deep care.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Oh she appears yeah, and it also appears that she
was always traveling when these murders occurred, right, So that's
super intense. We're actually going to do a very big
deep dive on this on Sunday with our great forensics
expert Joseph Scott Morgan will be joining us to go
through the kill list that we were talking about last night,
which was this list that he apparently had, which is

(40:43):
really hard to unsee once you've seen it, and it
requires a real deep dive and an expert.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
So I'm so happy, specifically we have Joseph Scott Morgan
to get into the forensic meaning of it.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
So I want to talk about all the new developments
in Karen Reid.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
I thought you'd be done with Karen read listen I
am I said last night. That's a wrap. I haven't said.
I haven't even said those two words. It's an hour
I'm done, So for one full hour, I have not
said Karen Reid Okay, so you're dialing me in now, coach, Well,
I listen. I think it's really interesting as an ant.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
Listen, I'm an analyst by trade, right, and I think
it's really interesting to get information from the jury because
they because then you can go and ask them questions
and they can respond, and then you can really have
like hindsight and look back at testimony and sure you
know so anyway, that's why I'm interested in this. So basically,
five players have come forward, right, five major players. Michael

(41:43):
Proctor went on twenty twenty right, Michael, Karen Reid's lawyer,
did the Howie Carr Show on radio. D're eleven did
the just I don't know how to say your last
name My fairly bad just Shadow show, and then Duror
four did TMZ iain alternate. Dur seventeen spoke with John

(42:09):
di Petro, but John de Petro deleted it, but I
have it wait after he appeared, he did, and I
The speculation about this deletion, and it's allegedly is that,
you know, John is a guilter, Karenry is guilty. Karenry
is guilty, you know, and this alternate juror basically kind
of made him look semi foolish, you know, like no,

(42:31):
like you're wrong, like she's she's not guilty, right, And
so the speculation is that he deleted it because you know,
he's a guilter and the alternate juror was basically telling
him all the holes in the case made you know,
everybody's saying not guilty. But he is saying, to his credit, John,
that another juror contacted him and said, don't talk to
the alternate jurors. They weren't even in on those deliberations.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
So aren't alternate jurors not in this? That's gretch're not?

Speaker 3 (42:57):
So why are they weighing in? You were not exactly what?
That is exactly what John is saying. Another juror that
contacted him is telling him, like why that's so that's
I think that's completely fair.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
I'm just telling you what the speculation is.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Also, gilter, I have, is that something I need to
add to my vocabulary?

Speaker 3 (43:14):
I never heard well, you know, like with Brian Coburger,
we say pro burgers, you know, like you know, like
people who are pro I don't know, it's just nicknames.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Okay, So are you a guilter?

Speaker 4 (43:24):
No use it either Stephanie, I'm unclear body.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Am I non guilter? I don't know. I you know, listen,
I saw the juror that also was speaking with Harvey
Levin from TMZ. You know, I love my Harvey Levin.
I know you shot out to Harvey. So yes, and
it look it sounded like he was pretty convinced that
she was guilty and that he was not really feeling
her vibe. She seemed a little arrogant because she was

(43:52):
very confident. We've heard this from many people, right, you know.
And then apparently as like the trial went on, she's
he sort of softened up and she kind of grew
on him, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
And then the juror number eleven that Jess Machado spoke with,
she had some really interesting things to say, like Jess asked,
I think Jess asked some really good questions, like she asked,
do you believe the injuries to John O'Keefe's arm.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Were caused by a dog?

Speaker 6 (44:18):
What do you do?

Speaker 2 (44:19):
You guys want to know what?

Speaker 5 (44:19):
She said?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
I think yes, you have to go look it up
on her substack. What do look it up? Stack? Yes?

Speaker 3 (44:27):
She said, yes, I actually have my own theory about
the dog's role in his death. I don't see those
injuries coming from a tail light at all. Plus the
lack of more injuries on his body made it really
hard to believe a collision occurred.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
It made it hard for one single medical expert from
the prosecution or defense to agree as well.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
So I'm with you.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
So that was pretty interesting. That was And then she
asked another really good question. What witness did you trust
the most?

Speaker 2 (44:54):
What do you think? She said? I think she trusted
the most. Who did I trust the most? I loved
the woman I'm forgetting her name. The doctor who was
we talked about her here? That was very no nonsense.
That was She was like, oh, I can't answer that
question because he wasn't hit by a vehicle.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Was it doctor Lepisota? Doctor Lepisota? She mentioned her. Yes,
we love her. Yep, she liked her. And she liked
Maureen Harnett. Oh yeah she was great too from the
police lab.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah she was great.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
And then okay, this is the good one. What witness
did you trust the least?

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Who do you think? She said?

Speaker 4 (45:27):
M Kelly Dever for me, Oh, Kelly Dever that I
don't remember, recall I don't recall.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Can I take that? I don't know.

Speaker 6 (45:35):
Kelly.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Yeah, her behavior in court made me question whether it's
safe for someone who acts like that to be carrying
a gun among civilians.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Hun that was that was her thing. I feel like
she was working for a bunch of people and she
was on the lower end of the chain work wise,
and that's got to be a tough spot. You got
to like either rite out your bosses or take some stitches.
I don't know. It was fishy and I think not great.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
We are talking about Karen Reid and the fallout from
the trial. Hit us with the talkback on the iHeartRadio app.
You just click on the red microphone the upper right
hand corner, leave a message and you're on the show
and we have a talkback right now speaking of excellent.

Speaker 8 (46:19):
Hi y'all, This is Quinn in Connecticut. I know a
verdict was reached in the Karen read trial, but I
wanted to offer a theory I haven't heard anybody talk
about yet. I also believe that Karen hit John with
her car. Obviously the jury disagreed, but I also think
that the people in the house might have found him
a lot sooner than they claim they did and chose
to do nothing out of fear they would get in
trouble for drinking and driving or some other reason, maybe

(46:40):
related to Brian Higgins. I think this would explain the
how long to die in the cold search and other
evidence of collusion uncovered by the defense. I'd love to
know your thoughts.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
I'm a little flabbergasted because I have never thought about
that theory, and that's saying something because a lot of
different theories have been thrown around.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
It kind of bums me out too, And I listen,
I'm not alone in this, obviously, but captain obvious here.
You know, he could have lived had he been found sooner.
You know, like that's a bummer, you know, maybe had
you know, in an alternate universe, somebody can.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Say that because because of the glass in the nose
comment that Karen made. Is that why So when Karen
said that she found John, she said there was like
embedded glass in his nose and that she picked it
out and blood kind of gushed out, so that would
indicate a heartbeat.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Correct. I learned this from Joseph Scott Morgan me too. Yeah,
so that's like an interesting detail, and you know, I
think a lot of people have given Jen McCabe a
little bit of, you know, stress in the press. She's
also a witness that I identified. She was there at
the scene with Karen Reid and basically said she overheard
Karen Reid saying I did it. I did it. I

(47:51):
watched the Proctor interview. Oh you did I did so? Okay,
so poster Trooper pro Proctor. He was the investor stigator
that you know, was a He testified in the first trial,
but not at the retrial, and you know, highly controversial
because you know, he was ultimately fired for some very

(48:12):
inappropriate texts that he had sent between friends. And we've
all been real hard on him. And it seemed to me,
if you talked to me about this last night, that
this is the guy, this was ground zero of this
investigation getting real wonky, real quick. And I will not
be too ashamed to admit when I saw his interview
on twenty twenty with my sweet Matt Gupman, I thought

(48:33):
he was really likable and I could you know, it's listen,
I'm a sucker. Boston Irish Boston gets him too. He
seems sincere his buddy is gone. You know, it's a night.
You know, perspective is such a powerful thing, and I
thought he was well spoken. What did he say about
heart kind of breaks regrets it? You know, the kind
of the sentiment I'm paraphrasing here was, you know, this

(48:55):
is his buddy, this is best bud. You know. So yes,
he was not he was still impartial, but because it
was a friend, you know, it definitely adds emotion to it.
And he regrets, he regrets sending those texts, and you know,
he broke down in tears. You know, you're tired, and
you know it's been a mess. It sounds like you know,

(49:15):
I'm you know, he felt emotional, and you know he
did get fired, and he knows the family. And listen,
these were a bunch of buddies and one of their
buddies that they were with died and he believed that
Karen Reid was to blame. And he explained why. And
you know, thank god, I'm not a juror, because you know,
when you look in someone's eyes and you hear them talk,

(49:35):
he sounded sincere. I'm not suggesting that Karen Reid, you know,
did it, but I'm just saying.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Well, he didn't testify, so the JURORSY get to see
that's true side of him, right, they just heard about
the investigation.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
That is true. He has taken such a bashing. Well
he does. Yeah, it's terrible.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
It was an unconscionable investigation. I don't know, take every other,
take out the friendship, take out every it was an
unconsciable investigation.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
True. Anyway, we have a very special guest with us tonight,
and I'm excited to have him join us right away,
Doctor Williams, who's an activist and an author who was
here to to really shed some light on not only Juneteenth,
but also some of the black and brown cases that
are just not getting enough attention. You know, we had
spoken a bit about the Gabby Petito case. You'll remember
Gabby Patito. She went missing and later was found dead

(50:26):
and had been killed by her by her boyfriend, Slash Beyonce,
and it got worldwide attention. The whole country was looking
for her, and the Potitos really made an effort because
they felt as though, you know, given their tragic loss,
that they wanted to really pay that forward. And Gabby
was this, you know, blonde, bright haired, beautiful girl, and
maybe it got so much attention, and it really occurred

(50:48):
to the Potito family that you know, we need to
really do more to make sure that the black and
brown community is also having this level of attention and
we really want to be a part of that as
well and make sure we're pushing that too. So, doctor Williams,
welcome to the show.

Speaker 5 (51:05):
Great, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
We're so happy you're here. Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
So where should we begin. I know body wanted to
jump in and had some very specific questions about some
of the cases that you're looking at. But you know,
thank you for shutting some light on on June's teenth
for us.

Speaker 5 (51:23):
All. I appreciate it. And you just mentioned you were
talking about the Potitos. Actually, that's not the first time
that you had a situation like that. I go back
nineteen sixty four the infamous Freedom Summer case. We had
civil rights workers go missing in Mississippi while they were
registering black people to vote in investigating arsons at black churches,

(51:45):
which also cites for registering African Americans to vote. And
one of the wife of one of those missing workers,
Rita Schwerner, when the President Johnson and Johnson administration extended
condolences and actually sent flowers to the two white missing
some rights workers, and did not do the same thing
for James Cheney, the missing black civil rights worker. You
had readers Warner say essentially what Gaby Patio's family said.

(52:08):
You know, until we have a system of justice in
this country where all victims are treated equally, then you
really don't have equal justice. So it's funny how those
history doesn't repeat itself. That echoes. That's a good example
of those.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Echoes, and it's the numbersility extraordinary too. It gives me
chills also, So how can we, you know, be a
part of the change, because that's obviously the goal, and
not just on Juneteenth, although an important, of course day
to be to be speaking about, you know, we want
to really make sure we're doing that on the daily.
So thank you for taking the time to share some
of these tales with us.

Speaker 5 (52:41):
I appreciate that. I also appreciate the work. I think
when we talk about, you know, true crime for some
people has a more salacious kind of appeal, but the
reality is it's keeping the names of victims correct out
in front in the public, and that's so important, particularly
for black and brown people, indigenous people. We need that
kind of visibility and I'm very appreciative of the work

(53:04):
that you do for that reason.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Thank you, absolutely, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (53:08):
I have a question, doctor Williams, can you talk us
through sort of the state of affairs about cold cases
and unsolved murders for black victims, because if I understand correctly,
there's pretty gross disparities.

Speaker 5 (53:21):
It's it's a great question, and there are, and the
reality is that this is also a legacy of holdover
from emancipation and reconstruction. We often don't think about it
this way. So, for example, we're commemorating June teenth, which
is significant because it was on June nineteenth that the
slaves in Dallas and Texas were finally informed of Lincoln's

(53:42):
Emancipatient Proclamation, which have been issued two years earlier now
very quickly. It's important for people to know that the
Emancipatient Proclamation doesn't free the slaves. The thirteenth Amendment actually
abolished the slavery, but the Emancipatient Proclamation was important because
as a wartime measure, it freed those slaves and active
rebellion against the Union. But here's the key part the

(54:02):
emancipation proclamation is dependent on the force of the Union army,
and as the Union army is advancing, it's only when
the Union army actually arrives in specific areas that the
formerly enslaved can enjoy some of the liberties that we
associate with freedom. But there was also a great deal
of violent against the former slaves, the formerly enslaved, as

(54:24):
slave masters kind of lost their standing in community. One
of the ways that they were able to maintain control
was through violent. So the whole problem of kind of
missing and murdered people of color actually begins as a
legacy of emancipation.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
Wow, it is so deep, right, like how do we
how do we fix this? And and that's such a
complicated answer, I know, I just it just seems like,
you know, this is twenty twenty five, Why are we
still having these problems? And like it's societal right, Like
I'm getting just in my head right now, and I

(54:58):
just can't you know, s.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
I think part of it is talking about it, you know,
like this is this is what we're doing, you know,
like let's discuss and unpack it and make sure that
we're keeping victims well. Even as like a true crime creator.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Like when you go to crime Con and you look
out into the audience from the stage, what do you see?
You see a sea of white women. Even even as
a creator, there's hardly any African American or or Latina
or you know, indigenous women creating true crime content. And
we need to we need to we need to fix that,

(55:30):
I think, yeah, right, I mean, it's it's definitely a priority.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Here. We did a documentary called Murdered and Missing in Montana,
which you know, focuses on the Indigenous Murdered and Missing movement,
and yeah, it was pretty shocking. How you know, how
how rampant this was. And once you know that, it's
hard to it's hard to look away. So you know,
where can we dig into a case? Even currently, I
love it.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
By the way, Murdered and Missing in Montana's phenomenal, and
I think it's kind of interesting. Going back to the
history for just a second. Part of it is legislation.
So way back in eighteen seventy, in the aftermath of
the thirteenth Amendment, you needed an enforcement Act to essentially
declare acts of violence against African Americans federal crimes because
there was no local enforcement and a lot of that

(56:16):
violence was perpetrated by organizations we most often associated with
the Ku Klux Klan, but these are white terrorist organizations,
white supremacist organizations that do their business in the cover
of night and often hid their victims. So they're, you know,
kind of all these people, all these bodies that are
a mass. But the Supreme Court eviscerated key sections of
that Enforcement Act in a series of cases in the

(56:39):
eighteen seventies. The same thing happened during the Civil Rights
era in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. There were
calls for stronger legislation like the Civil Rights Act of
nineteen sixty four, the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five.
Right now, the US Congress kind of stalled out on
the Justice for just George Floyd Justice and Policing Act.
But all these have that consistent strain of trying to

(57:00):
when some accountability and you know, at least a modicum
of accountability around issues of justice for communities of color,
particularly women of color. And that's why I really appreciate
all of you elevating that, because when you talk about
invisibility in terms of these statistics, they really are the
margins of the Margins agreed.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Totally agreed, Doctor Williams.

Speaker 3 (57:22):
We understand that you recently spoke at the Missing and
Murdered Black Women and Girls Office in Minnesota. Can you
tell us about that office when it was established in
the kind of work they do.

Speaker 5 (57:31):
Thank you for that question. I really appreciate that that
office was established. The work began in twenty twenty two,
and it was really inspired here by the work of
the Indigenous community to really bring awareness around the issue
of missing a murdered Indigenous women. So we had an
office for Missing a Murdered Indigenous Women first, which was
really championed by our Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, who is

(57:55):
of Indigenous descent. And then you had a number of
black activists year along with legislators coming together and saying
this has been a huge problem in the black community
as well. We need this office for Black women and
girls as well. So I was fortunate to speak at
the inaugural launch of that office, and it was a

(58:18):
wonderful day, but also a sad day getting to meet
some of the families of victims. And you're talking about cases.
One of the cases that I talked about was a
woman by the name of Deborah Rogers who went missing
in nineteen ninety six, and there was really no movement
on her case. But then you talk about kind of
the deep harm to a family. Her cousin had gone
missing in nineteen eighty eight and that case didn't receive

(58:42):
any attention. So you're talking about now within families, a
legacy of missing and murdered family members, which sends a
message to those people within the community that your lives
really don't matter.

Speaker 3 (58:55):
Part of the reason a generational trauma on top of it, right,
Like imagine growing up your life thinking that you don't matter.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
I mean, it makes me want it makes me tear up.
I mean, it's just it's frustrating. It's frustrating, Doctor Williams.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
I was recently, we have been talking about the horrible
shot A Robinson case. Although the strength that her mother
has found is staggering and awesome in the literal sense
of awesome. In digging around, I had found one statistic,
and it was that in Wisconsin, black women are twenty

(59:31):
times more likely to be murdered than white women. Now
Wisconsin is the leading that is the highest in the
United States. But that staggered me and then also I
was looking at some stats on the OMMBWG and that
there are over sixty thousand Black women and girls missing
right now in the United States.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Can you speak to any of that?

Speaker 5 (59:54):
Really important? And thank you for kind of naming the
National Office of Missing a Murder Black Women and Girls.
But I you know, those stats coming out of Wisconsin
are indicative of a number of problems that work in
concert to create even greater levels of vulnerability for Black
women and girls. I like to call them the six

(01:00:14):
degrees of segregation. So you have not only high levels
of crime within communities of color, but high levels of
crime that are fed by, for example, unfair labor practices,
a lack of access to quality education, a lack of
access to places of public accommodation, Jim Crow justice, and
fear of the criminal legal system given generations of feeling

(01:00:35):
like the criminal legal system doesn't work to the benefit
of the q or for the benefit of the community,
and those things work in concert to make Black women
and black girls even more vulnerable. They for example, decrease
the likelihood to report of crimes violence or domestic violence,
which is just a big source of this problem. And
they also don't speak to the epidemic problem that we

(01:00:57):
have around drug abuse in this country as a whole,
and the fact that even that's racialized in a way
that we talk about problems within the African American community,
the black community and other communities.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Such important work that you're doing, doctor Williams. Thank you
so much, but stick around where be right back true
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
We've had a very special guest with us, doctor Williams,
who was both an activist and an author. He's really
shedding some light on on so many issues that we're
facing with even executions. And you know, there's so many
famous cases. The case of George Stenney Junior, for example,
is such an important one, doctor Williams, And yeah, can
you fill us in a little bit more.

Speaker 5 (01:01:46):
Sure, It's an infamous case and one that I think
quants me even to this day. George Stenney was fourteen
years old. He was living in a small community, small town,
a sawmill town in South Carolina, and in March of
nineteen forty four, he was accused of the murder an
alleged although this was never really brought out in trial,

(01:02:08):
but there was some suggestion of even sexual assault against
two young girls and the only evidence against him was
the fact that he had been seen talking to the
girls earlier in the day. When their bodies are discovered
the following morning, suspicion falls on George and his brother. Supposedly, George,
who is unaccompanied by his parents when he's interrogated by police,
confesses to the crime, and from that point forward he

(01:02:32):
is essentially railroaded by South Carolina a justice system. So
what ends up happening is after George confesses, he is
basically kept away from his parents. His parents aren't allowed
to visit him. He's tried shortly thereafter by an all white,
all white, all male jury, so certainly not a jury

(01:02:52):
of his peers, his parents. There are no black people
in the courtroom because it's segregated. South Carolina. Nineteen twenty four,
and in April, just a few weeks after the prime
he is electrocuted, sentenced to death and dies by electrocution
people today, fourteen years old, the youngest person to still
a record to ever be executed in the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
We've seen images of that too, and it is it's
hard to unsee and really important that we're talking about it,
because it's really unfathomable.

Speaker 5 (01:03:25):
It is, and I think what is so striking about
it is the most people think about civil rights cases.
The case that most of us think about are drawing too,
is the case of m Mattil, who's the fourteen year
old African American boy who's murdered in Money, Mississippi in
nineteen fifty five. But the parallels between the cases are
pretty powerful. Sinny, of course, is accused of assaulting two

(01:03:47):
white girls, and there's this long standing historical taboo about
relations between black men and white women. And you know,
that was a lynching offense in South Carolina even today.
You know there was some justin that if a state
hadn't taken his life, it was very likely that he
and his family could have been targeted by extra legal
violent by virtue of this assault. And it's also important

(01:04:09):
to note that historically, although men were accused of these crimes,
often when we talk about missing and murdered people of color,
there are any number of cases where entire families pay
the price for accusations leveled on one member of the family.
They can't find that person and they end up killing
or conducting acts of violence against the family, and in
a couple of cases in Oklahoma. You even have documented

(01:04:31):
cases of mothers and sons being lynched on the same day,
and the only crime of the mother is attempting to
protect their child from the vengeance of the lynch mob.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
I mean, it's just sickening. You know. We were Courtney
and I were working very closely on the Rodney Reid
case in Texas, and that still is an ongoing one.
He was looking at an execution and it seemed as
though they were not testing his DNA despite the fact
that they had DNA to test, And now he has
a stay of execution. Again, controversial case, but I bring

(01:05:00):
it up simply to say, you know, real time, this
is a real thing, and you know, we all have
to do more.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
I appreciate you, Stan. I often tell people one of
the things that I really appreciate about true crime slupsis
as historians, we work with dead viruses and you guys
work with live ones. The reality changes that we talk
about are are old and they carry the weight of
essential justice. But you're actually talking about people whose lives
hang in a very balance. That's very important work.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Yeah, it's important stuff to keep the word out there,
so you know, we were saying this earlier before you
came on and joined us. You know, how do we
do this as a regular thing, you know, not just
on a holiday but also you know, weekly and making
sure that we're keeping certain cases you know, up and
at the forefront of people's minds. Because one thing we
do know is that the community is really large and

(01:05:48):
really actionable and people, you know, I can say our
audience and the people that are listening right now, they
genuinely care. So you know, we can move mountains or
you know, at least start to together. So here is
a big piece of that. Yes, very much so, doctor Williams.

Speaker 4 (01:06:03):
I had a question to ask you, and I was
reminded when you mentioned this, if I'm getting your phrase correct,
the six degrees of segregation?

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Am I getting that right?

Speaker 5 (01:06:13):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Okay, great.

Speaker 4 (01:06:15):
So, first of all, that's really great how you laid
out all of the tenants or prongs of that, but
it was it reminded me so much. Stephanie mentioned earlier
we worked on murdered Missing in Montana and so at
that time we of course did a lot of work
with m MIIW groups and there's a phrase the women

(01:06:37):
disappear not once but three times, and it's they're no
longer physically they are you know, they are dead. And
then also in the media, their stories are underreported or
not reported at all, as well as in the data,
there's inadequate and incomplete data collection, lack of resources. I mean,

(01:06:57):
I can tell you in making the document, we went
through really important documents in people's names where these are
federal documents, and people's names were spelled nine different ways.
People didn't care enough to get the names right. Any
thoughts on.

Speaker 5 (01:07:12):
That it's a denial of personhood in a way that
is visceral. Should people lean into what you just shared,
And I think it's really powerful then to talk about
it in terms of those three layers of death, the
physical violence visited on the body, the erasure that comes
when the community ignores that violence or ignores the loss

(01:07:32):
of that person. And then as you have people who
might be awakened to that injustice trying to recover that story,
the impediments they encounter, then trying to just get the
basic facts about this person whose life mattered. It's like,
you take these victims and you make their lives ambiguous,
and these aren't ambiguous lives. These are members of our community,

(01:07:53):
mothers and sisters and workers and contributors who deserve better
than that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
Absolutely, it was really it was staggering to see it,
you know, in our hands.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
And I experienced that with Shakaiya Shakaya Blue Harding, who's
missing out of Montana, the Northern Cheyenne Tribe. Yeah, the
she was reported missing, and she was reported missing and
her poster in her police report were not updated for
an entire month. It's sat on a detective's desk an

(01:08:26):
entire month.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
And by the way, we know the first forty eight
hours are the most significant party in an investigation. So
if your family member is not getting the word out
about if people aren't looking, they're not going to get found.
And that, I guess is also such an attack on
you know, what we're not doing on personhood.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Just like doctor Williams said, I mean, it's a it's
a literal attack on this on your personhood, and it's
I mean, it's it's upsetting, it's very upsetting, Doctor Williams.
I have a question, could you talk a little bit
more about the historical relationship between capital punishment and black
American Like, are there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
Any statistics and whatnot? That you have to kind of
tell us about.

Speaker 5 (01:09:05):
There's some very well documented studies. But I'm actually working
on a book now on lynching, a capital punishment in Delaware.
And the reason that book came about is I moved
to Delaware to take a teaching job in the late
nineteen nineties and was struck by something that happened. There
was a gentleman by the name of Reginald Hannah who

(01:09:26):
died in police custody, and a person wrote into the newspaper,
which came out on Wednesday once a week, and that
person wrote, it should be like it was when I
was a little girl, take them out on trees and
lynch them. Why don't they do that anymore? And I
was so disgusted by that it struck responded, well, yeah,
and it was just it was strange to me because
this was you know, no one responded. So I kind

(01:09:47):
of looked into that and came across this very infamous
lynching nineteen oh three, but then realized that that wasn't
the story. And just to give you the thumbnail very quickly,
it was a gentleman who was accused of the rape
and murder of a seventeen year old girl and when
they lynched Hi, the Chief Justice of the Delaware Court said,
there was no need for you to resort to mob violence.
If you had left it to the court, he would
have been dead in six weeks. And I thought that

(01:10:09):
was very powerful because it was like a denial of
due process, very similar to the Stinny case. It's like,
you know, if you don't want to say that, the
court is going to do the work of the lynch mob,
but the reality is that's what it felt like the
justice was saying. And so when I began to dig
into capital punishment and Delaware, those are the numbers I uncovered.
I'll just give you a couple of very stark statistics

(01:10:29):
from that between well, the first white man to be
executed for rape and the history of Delaware is in
nineteen forty two. All the other men who are executed
for rape are all black men. And in those cases
there are a couple of egregious ones where the victims
the persons executed were clearly not guilty. Now, I want

(01:10:49):
to be clear, the metric isn't always innocence. It should
be due process. That's why we have a legal system,
and we want to but it's I think more compellent
for people when you talk about cases of individuals who
innocent and the starkest was involved. Gentleman by the name
of Theodore Russ who was executed in nineteen thirty. He
is accused of rape, but the reality is that he

(01:11:12):
had stolen moonshine from a local bootlegger. They couldn't square
out a criminal complaint of stealing moonshine because it's the
high of prohibition, so they accused him of rape. And
despite the fact that there was abundant evidence that he
had not committed this crime. He's executed in August of
nineteen thirty for a crime he doesn't commit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (01:11:30):
Yeah, you have Alice dunbarn Nelson, who's an African American luminary, author,
activist who writes in her diary haunts me even to
say it. Theodore russ life snuffed out at the end
of a hangman's noose. How I wish I could make
those responsible hang alongside him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Yeah, it's powerful, it's very very powerful. Yeah. Where can
we find your work and support that?

Speaker 5 (01:11:54):
Oh? Thank you. I'm still working. The book is almost done.
I've kind of done some other projects, but I have
several articles that are out in Delaware history that look
at some of these unknown instances of racial violence, lynching
of a guy named Jacob Hamilton in eighteen sixty one,
the lynching of George White in nineteen oh three, and
then article that looks at kind of the long sweep

(01:12:16):
of violence and Delaware and quote some of those statistics
around capital punishment including you know that, you know, very
stark for people to realize that, you know, those numbers
are are so disproportionate, and that disproportionality is represented throughout
our criminal legal system in the country.

Speaker 4 (01:12:31):
Thank you so much, doctor Williams. We sincerely hope you
can come on again come back. As a reminder. Doctor
Williams is the founding director of the Racial Justice Initiative
at the University of Saint Thomas and Saint Paul, Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Big, huge thanks to the incredible guest we've had tonight.
We had Brian Enton, of course of News Nation. He'll
be on the ground covering frankly, all the juice every cases.
I mean, this guy's on an airplane. I think you
have a twin single day. He has to have a twin.
He needs to be like making sure he's taking his
vitamins so we keep him well and healthy so he

(01:13:06):
can report live from everywhere. And then of course doctor Williams,
you know so much life. He'll come back with us
hopefully next week as well. So a special thanks to
everybody who joined us tonight and again for you, we
want to make sure you're telling us what you want
us to follow. Also, so if there are cases that
we just aren't covering enough of, I know, I get
a little one note on my Diddy. It's been several

(01:13:28):
days now with no Diddy. Those I'm proud of you.
You wait till I get there. Almost made it a
whole show. I almost did. It's so true, I almost did,
and I almost didn't say Karen read what am I
going to talk about? For good?

Speaker 4 (01:13:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
My time is going to be so oddly divided now
eight eight eight three one crime or just hit us
up on our socials and tell us what you want
us to follow. What should we be geting? Obsessed with Diddy?
We're going to be talking a lot about on Monday,
but Sunday, Big day on Sunday, so make sure you
tune in. You know, we're here live two hours. We're
always here. Sunday through Thursday. But Sunday we have a

(01:14:04):
really big show, an eventized show with Joseph Scott Morgan.
He was on earlier this week and now he's going
to break down all the scary forensics in the most methodical, scary,
only the way Joseph Scott Morgan can. And we're going
to be talking about the kill list that was found
on or allegedly found with a well, I think it's

(01:14:26):
not even allegedly, I think that was found. It's a
huge serial killer accused. He claims his innocence Rex Humorman
in the Long Island serial killing case. I'm a Long Islander,
Go Long Island. We are going to find justice no
matter what. But you know, Joseah's going to talk through
some of the forensics on this because it's pretty harrowing stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
I'm about to eat my words on something. So when
we were talking a while ago about the dateline leak,
and as it pertains to Brian Coberger's case, his porn
searches were thrown out and I said, and I meant
at the time, I didn't get it that much weight, and.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
I did, we didn't. We don't hold it against your core.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
Well, but I feel grossly different having now seen, in
addition to the kill list, the porn, the specificity of
the porn searches.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
Oh with him with Rex Huerman.

Speaker 4 (01:15:18):
Of the Long Island Serial Murderer. The alleged is something
we will dig into on Sunday. And actually I'd love
to get some real health expert but holy mackerel.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Yeah, specific, like the specific searches, and like you know,
I went, I kind of went crazy the other night
about this document, right, Like I was.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
You got me all night. Yeah, we have to talk
about there.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
It is salacious, it is horrifying. It is detailed, right,
I said, I sent you guys a copy. I think
it's Yeah, it's next level, it's it's little. It's literally
like the scariest movie you've ever seen. You should all
be out dancing on tables all night, and instead we
spend our nights up and awake and scared looking at

(01:16:01):
kill lists generated allegedly by Iraq Ummerman. But I think
it's really important to talk about it because it's really Again,
how can you imagine that this type of thing happens?
And it's two pages, It's two pages, and it's like
a checklist, right, So we're gonna we're gonna be deep
diving that. We're gonna be deep diving that and talking
to Joseph and I'm really excited about Sunday's show.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
I'm really saying about And we'll have several cases too,
so a lot too.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
And well we can ask him too about the you know,
the corresponding with Brian Coberger searches and see if there's
a call that's I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Yeah, such a great night everybody. Thank you, ladies. I'm
crazy for you and I just love getting to hang
with you. And yeah, listen, we're off tomorrow back on Sunday,
so make sure you join us. This is true crime tonight.
We're talking true crime all the time. Have a great,
safe night.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Yes,

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