What’s Missing in Idaho: DNA, the Home, and the Killer’s Weapon; Plus, Honoring the Legacy of Sade Robinson

Sheena Scarbrough, mother of Sade Robinson, has become a powerhouse for change through Sade's Voice Foundation. Visit sadesvoicefoundation.com for more information, updates, and donation details. Follow Sheena on Instagram: @sheenascarbrough. Forensic expert and Body Bags host Joseph Scott Morgan dissects the forensics in the Idaho College Murders case following Bryan Kohberger’s recent guilty plea.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Thursday, July tenth. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker and I head of KAT Studios, where we make
true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I get to do
that with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move In. We have
a stacked knight of headlines tonight, Kanye West being brought
in for sexual assault and possible sex trafficking. Also, we

(00:40):
have a very special guest with us tonight. The mother
of victim Shade Robinson will be joining us to tell
us about her epic strength and turning her grief into purpose.
Joseph Scott Morgan will be joining us to talk all
things forensics in the Idaho Student College Murders. Also, he
appears in the documentary Joseph I'm here. Oh there's that voice.

(01:01):
We love Hi Joseph. How are you?

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Ladies? Herr? We all to see me. It's good to
join you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
We're so glad to hear you and we missed you.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
I only wish we were in the same room tonight
because Joseph. Not only am I wearing a body Bags
with Joseph Scott Morgan shirt hot merch from your podcast,
but mine is signed. Mine is signed.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Oh my lord.

Speaker 5 (01:29):
Yes, Stephanie saw it and she was like, where did
you get that?

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Well, thank you for that. I really appreciate things are
going great with body Bags, and I can't tell you
how much I appreciate you guys mentioning it. It's a
daily blessing and a curse to work as hard as
I work, you know, to do it. But I like
to like to keep my fans informed, and I think
we do a pretty dog gone good job at it.
Right now, we're doing teaching series every week. There's one

(01:59):
episode where you can learn basic forensics in one of
our episodes. That's varied. So that's been a lot of
fun to do. Put that together.

Speaker 5 (02:07):
Ooh wow, I'm interested to listen to that. I'm into that.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
It segues really well because I just have done an
episode on the basics of sharp force injuries and bron Coburger.
That case has featured prominently in there.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Brian Coberger, who was accused of killing four students, was
facing the death sentence trial in August, and now he just,
you know, fairly abruptly, that's an understatement, changed his plea
to guilty, and we're waiting now for his sentencing hearing,
and we'll know more about that next week. But now
that this is kind of a wrap in terms of

(02:42):
who did it, now we really want to understand the
why did it and also get access to some of
the details that either a haven't been released to the
press because there was a trial coming up, or that
we weren't comfortable sharing because we wanted to be very
mindful about not convicting him in the press.

Speaker 6 (02:58):
So now the gloves are off and Joseph.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
One of the big things that was you know, kind
of covered pretty extensively, but I really want to get
into it with you from a forensic standpoint. Is the house,
this infamous house that you know these off campus housing.
You know, we've all kind of lived that life, or
at least seen it from a distance. There were six
kids living there. It was a really odd house in
terms of just the layout. There was a third floor

(03:23):
and a second floor and staircases all over. It was
kind of a gutsy house to roll into when the
wee warning to murder four people. So number one, Ryan Coburger,
he's got some real you know what dare I say?
And then also that house was ultimately demolished probably over
a year ago now by the university. They just you know,

(03:44):
felt it was a stain on the town and to
heartbreaking for students to be near. That's one perspective that,
of course we understand, and the other was, look houses
hold forensics and the trial hadn't happened. If he's innocent,
would you want some of that possibility of maybe some
uncaught forensics to be used at your trial?

Speaker 6 (04:05):
Obviously now he said he's.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Guilty, or if you're you know, a victim's family member,
and some of them felt very strongly about this at
the time. There may be a piece of information there,
and why would we destroy this possible evidence prior to
a trial? And maybe more importantly, if there was going
to be a trial. Sometimes jurors as a group are

(04:28):
brought to a crime scene, and sometimes going to that
crime scene kind of standing there really sets the stage.
I mean, we all know what that's like. Having been
at many ourselves. There's kind of no way to really
describe it, like the air feels different, and that was
no longer an option because obviously it was demolished. So
I'm curious what you guys think about it. Joseph, what's

(04:49):
your take on all this?

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Uh? You know, I reflect back to the old adage
if walls to talk, and we think about that, you know,
when we are to a historic place, but from forensically,
if those walls could talk, at those floors, katak at
the ceiling could talk, the doors all at points of access,
all of that stuff. And there's been a lot made
I think of prior to and I've heard this time

(05:14):
and again. I've heard that components of the house were
taken out, okay, and I think that some people have
used this as a justification to say that, well, you know,
it would it would have been unsafe for people to
go in there, and that sort of thing. I've never
understood why you would take such big pieces of the
house out so you could no longer contextualize it. Again,

(05:37):
always revert back to Parkland. That thing was locked down
forever and ever. Eight men and I've worked hundreds of
homicides over the course of my career, and I can.
I was talking to a colleague about this not too
long ago. We were comparing notes, and it's like, I
don't ever recall a case where had a house that
was torn down because even a multiple homicide occurred there.

(06:00):
You know, It's just it's something. It was so odd
to me. Most of the time when we take components
out of house at a prom scene, most of those
times it's going to be because, for instance, if a
bullet goes into the drawwall, we would take out section
of the wall so that we could get trajectories. Okay,

(06:21):
but there's no trajectories here. The only thing that you're
talking about here is bloodstains deposition. Well, if you take
a wall out, okay, how are you gonna how are
you going to analyze that relative to the rest of
the space, because you've eradicated the rest of the space
at that time, it's no longer the same structure as
it once was. So I'd have to go back to

(06:43):
the beginning. What's irrationale for taking out these huge components
in the house.

Speaker 5 (06:48):
And we know they did, right, We know they did
when the SBI went and did the faral target scan
on Halloween and I think twenty twenty three, we could
see in the house because the windows were you know,
blinds were pulled back and we can see inside Maddie's
room specifically, and a big chunk of wall that would
have been next to her desk, right in front of

(07:08):
her door, a huge chunk of wall was gone. So
we know, to your point, Joseph, they took they took
massive pieces of walls.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So you know, when like.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
When we're talking about the jury visiting, you know, one
of the arguments that I that I often run across
online is well, the jury needs to didn't know why
the roommates didn't, you know, freak out. They need to
go in and see what people think there. And my
point back to them is, well, the walls were removed,
acoustics are going to be completely different, right.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, that yeah, that the horses left the bar. And
at that point, because you're looking, you're you're trying to
understand the acoustics in that house because it's such you know,
Steph had mentioned about how what an odd ball structure
this is, right, and you know on that third floor,
if you're in the basement, okay, if you're the one

(08:00):
roomy that's down in the basement. Are you actually going
to be able to hear anything on the third floor? Well, yeah,
I have no idea, and I don't know. I don't
know if they ran acoustic testing there, so that would
be that that's a huge question. And again I'm not
I'm not a real big fan of tearing things down
because it puts people's feelings. I mean, I'm sorry, you know, again,

(08:22):
I returned back to the family. The families were not
in favor of this, and their feelings are hurt more
than anybody else. I can guarantee you that. I just
don't I don't understand why you would do it. But
again it's a moot point. Now, I'd like to know
what they did take. I'd like to know what they
analyzed and maybe when or what conclusions they arrived at.

(08:45):
You know, we had talked about footprints at one point
in time, you know where you know those infamous van
Van shoes, you know, And yeah, the testing that went
on there was there actually a bloody footprint left back
left there. And I can understand if you're going to
take up a tile, yeah, you would take that in

(09:05):
the individual tile or even a segment of hard with flooring,
and you would analyze that, but why are you throwing
the baby out with the bathwater. I just I don't
understand it from a broader sense.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
I think Joseph that money played a role, right or wrong.
It was over a million dollars. I think it was
about one point two million dollars that was spent on security,
and between what the university was paying for increased campus
security and security consultants and even extra for the Idaho

(09:36):
State Police. Yeah too. And I actually had just checked
myself a couple of times or it's it's the same
number in several sources. Yeah, one point two million dollars,
So right or wrong, I do think finances was part
of it. I also remember the university at the time
making a statement that he's not bad for business, bad

(09:56):
for the students.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
And it wasn't we actually looked into and at the time,
I mean, I don't know if this has changed since this,
you know, initial conversation that we had had about it
when it was being debated, it didn't affect enrollment at all.
And by the way, we are very sensitive to the
notion that you know, kids are walking around, but it
wasn't on campus and it isn't a culpa sac and
it was an active crime scene. And by the way,

(10:19):
and I know this only because of working with the
great Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, sometimes it's the cement
in and around the area, right, things that can get
disrupted by all the foot traffic in and out of
a house because they're doing their investigation. And maybe more significantly,
it's the feeling. I mean, I get it from like
the nuts and bolts of it all. And ye know,

(10:39):
there are so many examples of trials where a video
or you know, the technology is so extraordinary these days
that's really equally as great. I just think in this
one there was such an eeriness to it that in
a sadness that sometimes that really gives a real sense
to jurors who are really being forced to understand a
lot of forensics. Sometimes the feeling is more moving than anything,

(11:02):
so you don't get too lost in the sauce.

Speaker 5 (11:03):
Do we know that the jurors would have been able
to even go in this house though, like they're in Boise, right,
and that's what's a six hours at the time though.

Speaker 6 (11:15):
Really moving.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
It hadn't been moved at that time, and that still
would have been feasible. And you know, again, you know,
it goes back, and I really wonder, you know, of
course we'll never really know where they're going to sequester
the jury. They have the ability to do it in Moscow,
I don't know, because you would, you know, you want
to check them out. Every time I've been involved in
one of these visitations out to a crime scene, it's

(11:39):
like there's like they pile everybody on a bus and
there's a police escort, and you you feel the police presence.
The defense is there, the the defendant is there. You know,
it's kind of weird. The judge is there, the jury
is there, and they locked everything down. It's it's almost
like a it's a real it's a real issue logistically

(12:00):
to do that, and you pile on a six hour
car ride to get there, if it is actually that far,
I think it is. But to leave, you know, leave
you know, Ada County, and drive all the way back
to Moscow. You know, it's a herculean task, to say
the very least. But again, the common denominator in all

(12:20):
of these are four lives lost. Yeah, that's what got Flouncy.
What kind of price tag is anybody going to put
on that, thank you. What kind of level of inconvenience
can you put on that? You can't. There's nothing that
trump's what these kids had to endure in those last
seconds of their lives and what these parents will endure
for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
It's never ending grief. And not to mention we know
he's not because he's a monster and a killer. Now
that we know this by his own admission, what if
he was innocent at the time he was claiming it,
you would want all the information there.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
That's right, and listen stick with us. After the break,
we are continuing with Joseph Scott Morgan, and we have
several your questions. I hope you add yours to the
pot and call us at eight of eight three one crime,
Keep it here, True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime
all the time.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In, and the great
Joseph Scott Morgan, the best forensics expert we know. Joseph's
been in all of our podcasts. The Idaho Massacre, the
piked In massacre. Frankly all of them crazy. It also
has this very oh crazy in love that's right. He

(13:43):
also has his very own podcast called body Bags and
it's excellent, please check it out. And he also appears
in our current documentary on Peacock the Idaho student Murders,
which is what we're talking about now if you haven't
been following that case, four incredible Idaho students were murdered
back in twenty twenty two, and the accused, Brian Coberger,

(14:04):
was set to really face a death sentence trial this summer,
and very surprisingly and shockingly week and a half ago,
he confesses. He confesses and changes his plea to guilty.
Now we're just waiting on the sentencing hearing to be
decided upon, and we were all left a little shook
and mad and upset. And you know, even on our

(14:26):
podcast The Idaho Massacre, we talk about the forensics with
Joseph pretty extensively, because again this was a total bloodbath.
There were two surviving roommates and like, look, the walls
were bleeding. We all saw those photographs where this was
a complete overkill. To quote Joseph Scott Morgan so, Joseph,
We're so glad you're with us.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
I'm pleased to be here, so good to be with
you guys.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
So let's talk about the forensics because so much is
being made of it right now, you know.

Speaker 6 (14:55):
And when we were.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Making the doc, we had to be a little careful,
right because the you know, we didn't want we don't
want to que anybody of murder. Ever, it's actually all
of our biggest fears, and we don't want to confuse anything.
And really we've tried to be as careful as we
could be to not share too much graphic information. But look,
we know it was awful beyond words, it's understatement of

(15:17):
the year. What's your takeaway, Joseph, what is something that
you're most interested to find out now that will likely
have more of this information once it's released to the public.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, I'm chomping at the bit too. And look, I've
read thousands of autosic reports in my life, and I'm
going to be you know, when they were talking about
GAG where I'm hoping that the autos information will be released.
And there's another reason for that too, because I'm so
furious there were the fact that he's not being made

(15:47):
to allocute.

Speaker 6 (15:48):
This is thank you, Joseph, thank you about that.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, I'm furious over it, and it doesn't matter what
I think. However, what I would like to see happen
is that if the family does not have that information,
they need it prior to their impact statements. And if
you can't get your pound of flesh from him, they
should be able to hold forth, point by point with

(16:12):
him to say they can run down that list and
he has to sit there and listen to this, this
is what you did to my baby, and he would
have to hear it four times over and over and over.
It should ring in his ears. And the one thing
that is missing is the actual direct testimony of the

(16:33):
forensic pathologists to really frame this out. And there's certain
things that I'm very interested in. Many people are not
aware that when a body comes to the morgue, if
we have a stabbing or shooting, we do in many
cases do full body X rays and you pick up
on little items within autopsies with X rays that you

(16:54):
can't see when you do the actual dissection or pro
section with an autopsy. And one of the things I'd
be very curious about is this blade has allegedly been
used multiple times on this particular knife. I would be
fascinated to know and this happened sometimes if that knife
peeled off a little shard of the body of the

(17:14):
blade itself, like some of the metal, and if they
could identify that in an it would be radio opack.
Everybody's seen an X ray. You could see that before
you go in to do the autopsy. And if they
could collect that, I'm wondering if there would be a
metallurgical tie back to the knife. Why that's important is
that each one of these manufacturers of knives have a

(17:37):
very specific formula that they followed to create the knives. Yeah, yeah, precisely. Actually,
you're right on the money. Yeah, And so could they
take that and compare that with what the company produces.
And I'm not saying that that that that happened, but
that but we don't know what happened. We don't know
what the what the physician saw when they when they

(18:00):
started the autopsy. And you know, X rays are fantastic
for that purpose. You can see these little metal storms
in there, particularly with projectiles, but nice suit to a
certain degree, the blade will peel every now and then
and you'll see that, particularly when it comes in contact. Unfortunately,
it's gruesome, as this is with bone.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
Joseph, I had just a couple. You're kind of blowing
my mind in this moment I had. I didn't even
know there was such a thing as post mortem full
body X rays. So we'll start there. Yeah, but my
other follow up questions to what you said, and also
if anyone else has questions, give us a call eighty
to eight three one crime and you can personally ask

(18:41):
Joseph Scott Morgan. So with those alloys, a is that
for all knives or only sort of the k bar?
What this is? So, for example, does my do my
kitchen knives have specific alloys that would react in the
same way?

Speaker 2 (18:56):
What's an alloy? I don't even know what an alloy is?
Can we explain what an halloe?

Speaker 3 (19:00):
It's a chemical combination of what's required to make the
body of the blade. And I can't sit here and
spouse about what the molecular composition is that this company uses.
And I don't know that it's going to be that specific,
but it would at least put you on the path
to this knowledge, I think, and it would be significant.
And again, painting a different picture or painting a more

(19:23):
focused picture. Certainly, you know right now we don't have anything.
We don't have anything at all, So something's better than nothing.
And then the descriptor of the injuries relative to here's
another thing that they would be looking at. Remember it
was put out that we did get this information that
the Knight that the injuries were consistent with a robust

(19:45):
hunting or military style style knife. Well, that's a very
specific descriptor. So what are you basing that upon? When
you and I'll give you an example. If you draw
a knie through like a rib cage, it hits like
the top of a rib. When you look at that microscopically,
the rib will actually wedge out in a V shape.

(20:08):
That's unique, okay, and it'll cut through that. Well, how
did you draw that conclusion that this is in fact
a military style knife? And does it fit within the
parameters of the cave are the one that the company manufactures.
And then you look at the external wounds as well.
That kN has the hilt on it or a hand
or handguard, and many times with handguards even if the

(20:32):
person is not quite dead. There and what's called a
Perry mortem state when you drive a knife into somebody's body,
it'll actually leave a verifiable contusion there as well, depended
upon like a bruise that surrounds the actual the actual
sharp force injury. You'll see it. I've seen it before.
And so does that Is there a handguard? Is there

(20:54):
an impression adjacent to these injuries that would fit the
same descriptor she would have with a k bar handguard?
I think that that would be an interesting question to
have answered as well.

Speaker 5 (21:06):
Or did they come up with that because they had
a sheath that said k bar on it or U s.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Mc yeah, good, yeah, I mean is it a red herring?
I don't know, that's why.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
I mean, I want to know, Oh, I don't follow
that train.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
Are they just assuming that it was in fact k bar? Well,
I don't think that it's it's it's an assumption necessarily
because it's documented that he has purchased one. So I
think that you know that in forensics, that's what we
call a clue. So I think that that is actually
a clue there, that that's probably they're probably right on target.
But I want to know what other physical assessment that

(21:42):
they did at autopsy that they could.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
Verify that Joseph, I had never thought. This is why
I don't play chess. I don't think ahead enough steps.
I never thought that someone who's a criminal would potentially
leave something like a knife, sheath or another gun at
a crime scene to try and throw detectives in the
wrong direction. Is that something you've I've never heard of.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
That is something, well, I've got an interesting thought about that.
I may have talked to you guys about this before.
If we go with the idea that he's wearing and
this is what was that's what they were saying. He
was wearing this Dickie's outfit, right, you know this Dicky's coveralls.
The Dickies don't have belt loops on them. And that knife,
as I've mentioned previously, that sheath has a very robust

(22:29):
belt belt loop on it that you can loop your
belt through. Well, he's carrying the same freestyle in his
pocket or he's walking in with his hands and you
know this thing where he draws the blade out, it
had to be drawn at some point in time. I
can't imagine he's walking around with a sheath in one
hand a knife and the other I'm thinking when he
ascends that third story bedroom, he's in there and this

(22:52):
is like the big finishing moment. He's withdrawing this knife
out of the sheet. He's got these two precious angels
up there that are you know, literally facing Satan and
he's about to butcher them. And for him, not being
a profileer myself, but for him, I'm just thinking, you know,
this is all part of the game for him, right, Yeah,

(23:15):
of course it is. It's theatrical, it is for play.
I think there's a lot of there's a lot of
documentation about people that delve into people that use knives,
and without being too over the top here, you know,
they talk about stabbing. Is the knife is a phallus
pass that that repeated over and over and over again

(23:37):
like that, and it kind of it kind of marries
up with it. I got to tell you guys.

Speaker 5 (23:41):
It does it, absolutely does it. It's penetration. It's such
an intimate murder. You're up close and personal looking at
somebody in the eyes, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
It's I don't think this.

Speaker 5 (23:51):
I don't think there was any sexual assault obviously, but
I do think it was sexually motivated.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah, And you don't have to have a physical assault
for an to be sexualized right at all? Right, some
of the cases I've worked over my career, I've had
people that have been completely brutalized, disfigured, and all of
it had a sexual connotation because it's like, if I
can't have you, no one else will. That's just one
of the little threads that run through these types of cases.

Speaker 5 (24:19):
Right, Oh, Joseph's a lot about with that.

Speaker 6 (24:22):
Yeah, it's so intense.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Do you think had he not been caught, meaning Brian
Coberger had not been caught, that he perhaps would have
continued to kill? You know? Was he a serial killer
in the making? That, thankfully was. His efforts were thwarted
frankly in a way that was far too late.

Speaker 6 (24:41):
In so many ways. But do you think he would
have kept going?

Speaker 3 (24:45):
I don't know. That's an excellent question of going back
to my granny. My granny used to say, boy, if
you if you rub up against evil long enough, it'll
some of it will rub off on you. And I
think that perhaps if he has some kind of predisposition
cycle logically where he's engaged from studying all the thing,
he wanted to walk down this road, this twisted path,

(25:07):
maybe so, and it planted the scene in his mind
and it took root. I don't know, but it seems
again it's one of those things you kind of follow
the breadcrumbs with it. It seems plausible to me that
that would look. I mean, this is a huge shock.
I've never heard of someone starting off because this is
not a serial killing. This is a mass murder.

Speaker 4 (25:27):
Everybody, hang with us. We will have more with the
great forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan after the break, give
us a call, join the conversation eight eight eight three
to one crime and keep it here at True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. It's Thursday, July tenth, and
we have stack meta headlines, so listen to this. We
have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, host of Body Bags
and also he appears in our documentary The Idaho Student Murders,
streaming now on Peacock. He's actually been on all of
our podcasts, The Piked and massacret The Idaho Massacre. He

(26:16):
really appears in essentially everything we may here at KT
and he's going to really do a deep dive for
us given the new developments in the case and the
forensics in this particular case. Obviously, given the new developments
with Brian Coberger saying that he did it, now we
can really pull the gloves off and talk about some
of the stuff that we were maybe a little too
afraid to prior to there being an actual sentence or

(26:39):
an actual verdict.

Speaker 6 (26:40):
And we also have some headlines. Body, what are you
following today?

Speaker 5 (26:42):
Well, I've got two out of Idaho. I have Travis Decker.
You know, earlier this week we reported that there was
a man scene in Idaho that a family recognized as
being Travis Decker. I mean, even down to the tattoos
and earrings. Well, turns out the law enforcement truck down
this person or they came forward. I'm not quite sure

(27:03):
just yet, but it's it wasn't him, unfortunately, so we
start back with maybe the cadaver dogs maybe starting to
look for him again in Washington. So unfortunately that was
not Travis Decker, and we are starting back over. The
second headline I have is due to the gag order
in Idaho for Brian Coberger. There is a hearing Thursday

(27:24):
the seventeenth, and it will be it's the emotion was
filed by the media to lift the gag order. So
this hearing will be held on Thursday the seventeenth.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah, the gag order seems ridiculous, quite frankly to do
that in place, But.

Speaker 5 (27:38):
I mean, listen, prior to sentencing, I get why the
judge hasn't lifted it, but he seemed kind of okay
with maybe lifting it now because you know, if details
come out from the gag order being lifted that the
family finds, you know, repugnant, which I imagine they will,
it could impact their victim impact statement, which will affect
sentencing for Brian Koberger.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
So that's usually why it won't be lifted. But I
have a feeling he's going to lift it. Can I
ask a quick question on that front? So if if
the gag order stays in place, for what purpose? Like
at this point, he's confessed, he has confessed to murdering
for Idaho students, and.

Speaker 6 (28:15):
So what let the let the gag orders be lifted?

Speaker 4 (28:17):
Why so?

Speaker 2 (28:18):
I can't the families of all sides be able to
talk freely and openly in the eleventh hour here he's
not calling the shots on everything. I just I don't
even understand what the downside would be, and I just
don't get it, Like, what is that?

Speaker 6 (28:30):
What is the downside too?

Speaker 5 (28:32):
I don't think there would be a downside necessarily because
the victim impact statements would be read after the trial
at sentencing anyway, and the art the family would be
armed with all this information. So I don't really know
what the downside would be. But the only thing I
can come up with is it could impact sentencing.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
That's it.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
But it's not going to I don't think I think
the judge might might lift it. It's only a few days.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
Can I ask what your indication when you said that
you you feel like the judge will Is that just
a gut or did you no?

Speaker 5 (28:58):
Because during the during the hearing where he pled guilty,
the judge seemed like he was willing to lift it,
but the prosecution and defense and no, go ahead and
keep it. But he seemed like he was like, okay
with lifting it.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Why does the defense get a vote right now? He
this guy just literally admitted guilt to murdering four people,
slaughtering them in the middle of the night senselessly. Not
that there's any sense in slaughtering anyone, but so what
would he has to say he just got himself, you know,
his life saved. He's not getting a death sentence trial.
He's dragged everybody around for two and a half years. Liar, liar, liar,

(29:32):
and now he decides, you know, it's insane.

Speaker 6 (29:36):
I don't get it.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
I'm sure somebody out there does, though. Call us eight
eight eight three one crime. Please jump in, join the
conversation or just leave us a talkback.

Speaker 4 (29:44):
What do you think that's right? So in other news,
and excuse me, I think I'm going to say this
name incorrectly. K popstar Tyel he was sentenced to more
than three years in prison after pleading guilty to rape.
And the thirty one year old was sentenced to three
and a half years specifically alongside to others. And this
happened in Soeul Central District Court just today. And he

(30:08):
was a member of the K pop band NCT Neo
Culture Technology. So, boy, there's there's a lot of assaults
happening with biggs.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
In the music industry, right or has that always been
there and we're finally talking about it and exposing it.
I think probably it's been there this since the beginning
of time. But you know, we didn't have social media.
People were too afraid to raise their hands. And I
think we're just hearing more and more about it because
people feel safer maybe to share.

Speaker 6 (30:37):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (30:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think you're spot on.
There's really nothing for me to add. I think one
hundred percent agree with you on that. You know, we
used to there used to be back in the day,
what was groupies?

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Right? Oh yeah, right?

Speaker 5 (30:48):
And now you know, I think that's kind of evolved
with you know, back then it was like you know,
but now it's like, well, wait a minute, I was assaulted,
you know, Like I think that's kind of like the
awakening here.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
It's so true, right, And in this case, the poor
the victim. She was a tourist, she was grossly intoxicated,
totally unable to give any consent, and the three defendants
committed these hainous acts against her.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
So strength to prison, strength to her. And then we
have Diddy, timphany, we have Diddy, right.

Speaker 6 (31:23):
Let's hear all about it. Don't get me started.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
So Diddy sentencing info. When will sentencing be?

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Can you guess?

Speaker 5 (31:30):
October third, twenty twenty five, So that is fast approaching,
it seems so far off in the distance.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
But if you think about it, we're in July already.

Speaker 5 (31:38):
Then we have August, October, November, let's it, or September, September.

Speaker 6 (31:41):
I still forgot.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
About September because I again, that's funny, I had the
opposite thought.

Speaker 6 (31:45):
It seemed far away in my now.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
That I I mean again, who I don't get me started.
You know, that might be too soon, if you ask me.
But it seemed as though when the sentencing was announced
initially that Ditty's defense team really wanted it to be
moved up very quickly, wanted him out, and then they
wanted him to leave that night exactly, and it seems
like they kind of shut that down a little bit.

Speaker 6 (32:08):
So even the defense is on board with this.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
October date because actually it was going to be in September, right,
And I think it's to.

Speaker 5 (32:14):
Get this pre sentencing investigation report done. I think the
defense wants some time to get that done because it
can impact sentencing, and if it does impact sentencing in
a positive way for Diddy, that's good for the defense.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
So I think that's probably why.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
Well, we'll be keeping on that. You are listening to
True Crime tonight, We're talking true crime all the time,
and we are thrillingly about to be joined by forensic
expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We want to hear your thoughts.
Give us a call. We're at eighty eight three to
one crime or send us a talk back and you'll
be on the show.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
Can we bring Joseph on? Joseph, I'm here.

Speaker 5 (32:52):
We thought we would kind of break down the evidence
against Brian Cooberger, of course of what we know, and
since you're you know, all things forensics, we're just so
lucky that you heard to join us. So the first
piece of evidence against Brian Koberger is the knife sheath DNA, Right,
that's the lynch pin.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, what can you tell us about that?

Speaker 3 (33:13):
Well, yeah, it is the lynchpin from a you know,
just from a biological standpoint. You know, we hear a lot.
We grow up, right learning about crime. And the classic
symbol that you think about when you think about crime
is a fingerprint, right, I mean people us in their
logos for years and years. Well, this is a this
is a biological fingerprint that is left behind and as

(33:36):
distinctive as actual fingerprints are, that biological fingerprint is so
much more accurate and so much more spot on. And
I think that looking at this, looking at this is
probably that was for verbial nail in his coffin, you know,
because the numbers don't lie. They're so overwhelming, and you know,

(34:00):
and that's the big piece to this, the one thing
that we're asked and of course, and everybody has just wondered,
and they will continue to wonder unless something is overturned
and not overturned in a legal sense, but some rock
is overturned and they found that knife. You know that,
you know that sheets was the conveyance for the knife.

(34:21):
And to this point, we don't We don't know a
lot about injuries, for instance, on we hear this term
sharp force injuries and stabbing and cutting and all this
sort of thing, but when it gets down to the
nitty gritty, we still don't have that data in front
of us. And trust me, if that ever drops, a

(34:44):
whole new world is going to open up to everybody
who's been follow in this case for all these years.
It's gonna open up for me. I have my suspicions,
but when we see the depth and the breadth of this,
it's gonna it will knock everybody back on their heels.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Are you expecting to read from it?

Speaker 3 (35:02):
What do you expect? Well, well, okay, this is this
is my big thing and one of the things that
I've kind of held out for. And I've mentioned this
several times of Steph and I've had conversations about this
a couple of years back. But one of the things
I was really curious about if this is this blade
which comes from this cave bar is used to repeat
to Tom's Okay, by his own admission, this is.

Speaker 5 (35:25):
More with Joseph Scott Morgan on the Idaho student murders
and don't forget to give us a call at eighty
eight thirty one crime or send us a talkback on
the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
We're so happy you're here. We also have a talkback
right now. So let's go to that first.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Hid you kid tonight. I need to know what you
guys think hop into the knife and the coburger case
and what your guys theories are.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
I could talk that this six hours, so we have
another talk about Oka.

Speaker 7 (35:52):
Hi gang.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
This is Jody from Vegas.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Again.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
I have a question about the coburger case. I understand
authorities don't have the weapon, the knife.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
That he used.

Speaker 4 (36:04):
If that's true, do you think they'll ever find it?
Where is it? What would he have done with it?

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Great job, I'm enjoying the podcast a ton.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Oh that's that same question. Yeah, funny, Okay, Joseph, you guys,
you know, I'll let you guys dig in.

Speaker 6 (36:18):
You all know what my answer is.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Listen.

Speaker 5 (36:21):
I think you know there's there's a lot of there's
a lot of things that we just don't know yet
that have been happening that were leaked via the Dateline
episode that we've talked about a lot actually, and it's
pretty recent. And one of the things that was leaked
was that Brian Coberger searched for a knife sheath, specifically
a sheath on November fifteenth. And if that's true, and

(36:46):
we don't know what if it is, but you know
it is a trusted source. Dateline is pretty respected. If
it is true that he searched for a just a sheath,
I think he kept the knife and I think he
had it two days after the murder. Do I think
he might have taken it with him home but dumped
it after he got pulled over in Indiana?

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Hm, I think it dumped it in like the woods
dumped it in the garage, like maybe he went out
the side of the door.

Speaker 5 (37:14):
I mean, I don't know. I don't know if they
drove straight from Indiana to Pennsylvania, like in you know, six.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Hours or however long it takes.

Speaker 5 (37:20):
But it's possible that he even took it back home
to Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
It's just a it's just you know, yeah, I don't
know for me, if you if you follow this kind
of line of logic or as logical as it can be,
that he is this, you know. And this is not
just me saying this. This is a lot of pundits
that are out there saying things like he was a
burgeoning serial killer and there's no indication that there are

(37:46):
other deaths. However, he's been studying these people, and I
want everybody to really think about if you've ever known
a carpenter. Carpenters use tools. He knows this. If he
studied serial killers like this and they prefer a specific
kind of tool, could he have sequestered it somewhere? Could
he literally hit it beneath a rock. There are a

(38:08):
lot of beautiful rivers up there in streams. Maybe he
would take it into a flowing body of water and
take one of those big ancient rocks, lift the rock
in the water, put the put the knife beneath it.
And that accomplishes two things. It's sequestered and plus in
his mind, it's cleaning off any kind of physical evidence
it might be there because it's in this you know,

(38:30):
in this aquatic environment. I don't know, but that's that
would be my suspicion. I you know, he was, you know,
to put it in I guess vernacular, he's kind of
rolling dirty with this knife. I think, what are you
going to do with it? And once you get the
sense and he's he's coming off with this thrill, I'm thinking,
you know, what are you gonna do with it? You know,

(38:51):
where are you going to put it? If you want
to go back and relive this, which he very well
might have wanted to do.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
Well to your point, I think Bill Thompson, the prosecutor
in this case from the state of Idaho, agrees with you.
Joseph's he you know, during the plea agreement, he kind
of ran through what he thought transpired and he says
it's probably down south near the river.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
So you might be right about that.

Speaker 5 (39:13):
Stick around true Crime Tonight, we're going to be talking
with Joseph Scott Morgan. We're going to continue this conversation.
Don't go anywhere, give us a call at eight eight
eight three one crime, or use the.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 5 (39:24):
Keep it right here on True Crime Tonight, where we're
talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong, Body Moven, and we're joined by our favorite
Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and host of Body Bags
the podcast. If you haven't heard it, please check it out.
It's excellent. And he also appears in all of our stuff,
our documentaries and podcasts, including current currently airing and streaming

(40:01):
the Idaho Student Murders and again, Joseph, you're really you're
astounding in it, as you are in all of our
docs and our podcast for that matter, also the Idaho
Massacre podcast.

Speaker 6 (40:10):
Check that out too.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
We were saying earlier, I think that's just an indication
that people really care so much about the victims here,
and you know, Kaylee and Maddie and Zana and Ethan
are in our hearts triggering content. Obviously, we're talking about
forensics in this massive overkill. If you guys haven't been
following the case too closely, we're talking about the four
students that were murdered tragically two and a half years ago,

(40:34):
and the accused who was looking at the looking at
a death sentence trial in August, just decided to change
his plea. And yeah, he's guilty in all four charges
and has just been lying to everybody this entire time,
costing the state in families exhaustive amounts of both money
and ache. And now we should be getting some new
information once and for all. And we're all obviously standing

(40:57):
by very closely. So Joseph backed up to it again,
the knife. I know we had several questions this evening.
Thank you for calling in about where the knife is, Like,
where is this infamous murder knife? We all will they
ever find it? Does he still? Did he hide it somewhere?
So you guys all think his intention was to keep
it like a keepsake, because many killers who were in

(41:20):
it for the fame, the vanity, et cetera, seemed to
keep tokens.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
And yeah, I think that makes sense. It makes totally.
It seems to make sense, and so the sharpener and
also you know with the buying of the sheath, as
you points out earlier body but looking for.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
If it's true, if.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
It's true, correct, excuse me, if it's true, why do
you need a sheath if you don't have a knife.
So I I do have to say, Joseph in the documentary,
you really did such You brought just such expertise and
clarity two things. So I just wanted to shout out for.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Well, yeah, well we had a great I gotta get
a shout out to Catherine park Man.

Speaker 6 (42:03):
Yeah, we had it on the show.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
She's a genius documentary directors in the world. What a
beautiful eye she has for things, and she is such
a joy to work with, absolute joy.

Speaker 6 (42:15):
Yeah, I agree with you, Mike.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
I thought that the way that they did the house
in the documentary, that was my honestly. I had a
gasping moment. And it's when Steve Golensalvas Junior was talking
about you know, what's the what what are you afraid of?
You know, Olivia was asking him what do you what
are you afraid of? And he said a plea and
my heart sunk. But the other takeaway I had from

(42:38):
the documentary was the house and how well it came
across in the documentary.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
It was so so so good.

Speaker 5 (42:47):
You know, you really felt like you were inside the
house that night and it was a complete replica.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
It was so good. It was just it was just
really well done. I was very, very impressed. That's Lisa Bollen,
She's so beautiful and it was really like painstaking and
you know, you did a great job, very fabulous, fabulous.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
In the kind of amazing. How a structure and a
place Actually, if you're talking if you were talking about
this from a narrative standpoint, those those places become characters, right,
They don't really do in the house, I think, you know,
we've seen those images for so long. They're emblazed just
as much as those precious faces are, right, those kids

(43:26):
that the house will always be emblazoned in our brain.

Speaker 5 (43:29):
And you know, I've I've often been the one person
on the opposite side of the house, you know, like
being torn down. But in retrospect, seeing the documentary and
how the house, you know, recreation, kind of took my
breath away, and you know, it made me reflect on gosh,
you know, maybe I was wrong. Maybe you know, the

(43:50):
house shouldn't have been torn down, so it did. It
when you watch a documentary and it makes you change
a position or rethink a position. I think that's important,
especially to somebody like me. I don't I often dig
my heills in, Well, it was.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
Interesting the house. Yeah, sorry, go ahead, Joseph, No, I.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Was just saying the house. You know, I don't want
to sound too you know, like some kind of weirdo,
but the house itself kind of speaks, kind of speaks
to you in the sense that it's so unique. It's
so very unique. If you and if they were to
take the four of us and plant us in a

(44:28):
house similar to that, with that layout, and they turned
all the lights off, keep that in mind, this was
done in the dark. Perhaps could could the four of
us make our way through a structure like this? You
know it's a switch back, you know, landings and all
of that's how are you going to make your way
through this maze? And that's one of the big questions,

(44:50):
you know that I've always had. Did he did he
go out? Had he ever been in there before? I
think that that's one of the big questions For me,
it always has been and his observations of the place
from a distance, he didn't He did a very poor
job of observing that night, because if those were his
targets on the third floor, then how how did he

(45:12):
not account for the other people in the house. Do
you think he was going to be that stealthy to
get away with it?

Speaker 5 (45:17):
Well, and you know, you have a good point about
the you know, kind of navigating that house, and that
was a kind of a big deal in John Beney.
With John Beney, you know, they had all these additions
to the house, and how did the killer of John
Beney know to get to that sellar? How did they
know to get through the kitchen down the stay air,
you know what I mean? Like it was a big
point of contention with the Jean Beney case. So to

(45:38):
your point, Joseph, the house is incredibly important and knowing
if he had been there prior, I hope we're going
to learn. I hope we're going to learn they found
something in the house in his apartment. I don't know,
something that leads us to believe he was their prior.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
I don't know. Well, by the way, Bolan the same
person who made the graphic visual design, and I should
say they're not really graphics. The visual designer in the
documentary in Idaho also did the Jean Vonet one. So
that model that you're referring to the same talented team
and brain.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (46:12):
Okay, a good eye on.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Your part is very talented.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
Yore is you're listening to crimpsonight, I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm
here with Body Moven, Stephanie Leidecker, and everyone's favorite forensic
expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We're going through the details, the
forensic details of the Idaho college murder. And if you
want to ask Joseph a question, give us a call.

(46:38):
We're at eighty eight three to one crime where you
can always join the conversation by leaving a talkback on
the iHeartRadio app. So, one thing I wanted to say
was in the Idaho Massacre podcast, we spoke extensively about
the house and actually we spoke both with you Body
and with Joseph about this was hotly contested whether or

(47:02):
not it was going to be demolished. Additionally, we spoke
with an expert whose name escapes me, and she talked
she was very knowledgeable about why people are attracted is
the wrong word, but attracted to homes where things happen,
where murders or gruesome things happen. And then also what

(47:23):
you can take from being in the actual walls. But
regarding this, she said, sometimes your imagination, like what you
were describing, body of gasping at the documentary, what she
was saying was with all of the crazy extensive recreation
and pharaoh photography, which we should clarify what that is,

(47:47):
that you could actually really feel like you were almost
more there. Just remembered it was doctor Gail Saltz and
it was on voyeurism. Oh okay, but there was an argument,
but yeah, can one of you take the pharaoh technolog.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Well, I mean, I'm an idiot, but it's not.

Speaker 6 (48:03):
I don't like it when you say that, even if
you're humble.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
But I'm just saying I'm not an artist. You're literally
one of the smartest humans I know.

Speaker 5 (48:12):
I'm just saying I'm not I'm not in that field,
you know what I mean? Like I'm a layman is.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
What I mess.

Speaker 5 (48:19):
It's basically, it basically is a scanner for all intents
and purposes. It's a scanner and it scans every nook
and cranny of a target and recreates a room or
whatever the target is digitally, and I think they did
that to create the dollhouse. So they tore this house
down before prior that day, they the FBI did the

(48:42):
Farro target scan of the house and then they created
like a dollhouse. It's infamously referred to as the Dollhouse,
and it's a replica of the house. And the reason
they had to do that was because they were going
to tear the house down. And when we say this
was a unique house, we're not exaggerating. This was a
house that had add on after add on onto it.
So it was very weirdly shaped and it was kind

(49:03):
of built into kind of like a hill, right Like,
So the first floor was on the first floor, and
that's fine, but the second floor had a slider that
went also.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
To the ground.

Speaker 5 (49:15):
So because it was built into an incline, and so
the house kind of like twist and turned a little bit, right, Would.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
That be a good way to describe it.

Speaker 5 (49:24):
So this doll hot.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, the doll house was supposed to give us.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
An idea of what was right, and so it's built
into a bank, if you will.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, and there you go.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Where maybe it's been trimmed out. And you know, we
see houses like this all the time, and that bottom
floor would be kind of the basement, but not really
because it actually opens out onto the ground as well,
which makes it kind of unique.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
But there's like two ground level.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Yeah, there are two ground levels, and that's one of
the things that makes it interesting to try to navigate.
The Pharaoh's system, though, is fascinating in the sense that
it takes thousands and thousands The scene is like a gyroscope,
and so it's spinning around, it's taking thousands and thousands
of photographs in a millisecond, and so you take all

(50:16):
of this and you throw it together digitally and it
gives you this really intense recreation where you feel like
that you can appreciate depth and heights and all those
sorts of things. But with the reason they're using the
term dollhouse, I think it goes back to I think
their names Francis Glacier, who did the dollhouse studies back

(50:38):
in the twenties. She was one of the first well
she was the first woman that was ever consulted about
crime scene and you can do an entire show in
her life. She's fascinating and she created these dollhouses in
miniature based on real cases that police have used over
the years. This is nothing new under the sun. This
has happened. But the problem is is that you take

(50:59):
this visual recreation and it's not like if you guys
remember Star Trek the now generation with a Holida deck.
You don't have that ability.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
We will be speaking more with Joseph Scott Morgan and
about Jerry specifically.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
It's always such a joy to have you. Also, we
have a talk back. Let's go to that real quick.

Speaker 7 (51:19):
I'm great to know your take on the Christian Andriachio
case out of Maritia, Mississippi.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (51:28):
You know, I don't know that case, but I love
that our listeners are calling with cases, So first off,
thank you. Do you guys know what we should do?
I only know it a little bit.

Speaker 5 (51:37):
I know that it was ruled of suicide in that
it's being maybe reinvestigated, and it was like eleven ten
some years ago. I don't know a lot about it
at all.

Speaker 6 (51:47):
Let's talk into it.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
Absolutely. I know nothing as well. So now now we
do and we'll do our homework and report back. Thank
you so much.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, I just know if you
keep on coming, he says. Yeah, Like, we've been getting
quite a bit of them. So if you have any cases,
you could always just call us or leave a talk
back or hit us up in our socials at True
Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok or at True
Crime Tonight on Facebook. Would be so much easier if
those were the same. But you know, here we are

(52:16):
bear with me. But yeah, like the cases that you
are curious about or want to know more about, or
have some juicy details about, please just hit us up.
We really were trying to kind of create a little,
you know, crime club here.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
Yeah, and you can help us shape the show. So
that's that's the fun part of it all. And speaking
of shaping the show, which we like to do with
experts like Joseph Scott Morgan. So, Scott, before the before
the break, you were you were starting to talk about
jury's what was your thought on that.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, I think that one of the big roadblocks for
lawyers warning our even toy with the idea of bringing
a jury out to house a structure is like a
silent witness, okay, And you know, if you're inside the
court and you've got it could be the prosecution or
the sense they can redirect a witness, you know, if
the witness is not answering the way they want them to,

(53:09):
and the witness is going off and let's face it,
off script, they never ask questions. They don't know they
answer to you. For that old adage, when you take
a juror a jury out to a structure like this,
they can draw their own conclusions out there. And they're
walking around this place and they're looking at say, blood
deposition on the wall, on the floor, and they're drawing

(53:32):
their own conclusions. And the attorneys really can't crack that
in any way, and they could say, well, you have
to disregard this or what come on. They're not going
to do that in that environment. And so you know,
when you get a jury out there, it's outside the
norms for attorneys. They don't like that they're out of control.
So that's one of the big problems with taking a

(53:54):
jury out to a scene. I think, at least in
my experience, that's the reason it doesn't happen with great frequency.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
Interesting not something I never thought of I never did either,
but what a great point, and yeah you do. It
can hit different people different ways. Whatever home it.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
Could be interpreted one way by this juror and then
another way by this jur because like, as you said,
the house isn't really speaking, but in a way it
is because you kind of can feel it, right, you
get the feelings to your point stuff right like you can.
It's it's a deeply felt feeling of being in a
house like that or.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
In some cases right like I'm thinking of like Oscar
Pretorious that case of the you remember the Blade Runner
the man, you know, like there were some digital recreations
that were so meaningful.

Speaker 6 (54:40):
Of that, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
So I don't think in all cases it needs to
I don't think we need to schlep every jury to
every crime scene obviously, just in like this one was
a real piece of the puzzle. Hmm.

Speaker 4 (54:50):
That's right. Well it's in Joseph, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
Pleasure any time.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
Is always a It's my favorite night. Yeah, always really is.
And listen if you want more of Joseph and who
doesn't listen to his hip podcast Body Bags or catch
him in Katie's Studio's documentary airing on Peacock, The Idaho
Student Murders. Yes, True Crime Tonight. We are talking true

(55:20):
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Sheina Scarborough, whose lovely daughter was murdered last year. She's
going to join us to really share how she's turning
her grief into incredible purpose. And look, before we go
any further, we want to make sure we hear from you.
So join us eight eight eight three to one Crime.
You could either call us, You could leave us a talkback,
which is just download the app and the top right

(55:55):
hand corner you push a button and just leave your
opinion and boom, it'll be added to the show. Or
you could always hit us up on our socials at
True Crime Tonight Show on Instagram and TikTok or at
True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And also we have a
talkback right now. So let's go to that first.

Speaker 8 (56:13):
Hi, y'all, you had recently talked about the Titan submersible
and why it wasn't more regulated for tourism, and I
think it's interesting to note that they actually had a
work around for this by labeling each of those tourists
quote unquote that went on these trips as employees. They
called them mission specialists and gave them other job titles

(56:33):
specifically to work around any kind of tourism regulation, which
I think is super shady.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Super shady is an understatement.

Speaker 6 (56:41):
I did not know that.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
That's an incredible First of all, thank you for that talkback.
I wasn't aware of that.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
I didn't know that either.

Speaker 6 (56:48):
That's like downright illegal in some way.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
It seems like it should be. I mean, yes, I
have not heard that. And by the way, that is
in a very interesting ad. We're going to kind of
look into this a little bit further too, because again
these submarines, that's not the only example of this, and
we want to make sure that we're really unpacking it
carefully so that we know ultimately how to look for
this when we're out you know, doing I guess adventurous things. Yeah,

(57:13):
that I personally don't have to worry about, since they
were like they were.

Speaker 5 (57:17):
Doing things like important things like this. This was in
the documentary on the HBO documentary, And they were doing
important things like inspecting the whole and like swabbing the deck.
They were like deckhands. Wow, And like yeah, they were
like employees basically or contracted employees of Ocean Gate.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
It was in the documentary. It is very interesting.

Speaker 6 (57:34):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
And they were aware of that, right, So yeah, they
were one hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (57:38):
One of the gentlemen who actually made the first successful
trip down to the Sitanic.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
He's of course a billionaire. He's on the show and
he talks.

Speaker 5 (57:46):
About and he has footage from his cell phone because
he he was, you know, making videos while he was
on the boat that was housing the titan sub thing
whatever it's called the submersible, sorry, and he was making
videos and they play some of these videos on this documentary.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Wow, and he's like, Wow, I'm.

Speaker 5 (58:05):
A deckhand and I'm inspecting the whole and now I'm
down at the Titanic.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
It's very it's very weird. So all of the passengers
that ultimately lost their lives. If you're not aware of
this story, we covered it the other night where basically
adventurists who really were so curious about the Titanic went
in this submerged you know, submergible submarine or submergible I
guess is what.

Speaker 6 (58:26):
They call it, and lost their lives.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
And it's been very, really difficult for everybody because it
seems like they were so out to lunch in terms
of their guidelines in workarounds.

Speaker 6 (58:37):
This sounds like unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
Yeah, it really is. Thank you for that tip. And
now I want to go watch that documentary said that's good,
But what I want to do most is now speak
to the guest that Stephanie had referenced earlier, Sheena. So,
Sheen is an amazing woman. She's the mother of Shade Robinson,
who was lured to it seemed like an ordinary fur
state and was then very tragically murdered. Her death shocked

(59:04):
Milwaukee and the nation and has sparked widespread grief, leading
to activism and inspiration for change, and today her legacy
lives on through Shady's Voice Foundation. So Sena, Welcome to
the show.

Speaker 6 (59:19):
Welcome Sheena.

Speaker 7 (59:21):
Hey, hey, beautiful queens. How are you both doing? Journey?
And Stephanie Courtney and Stephanie is it?

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Yeah, that's buy and body exactly.

Speaker 7 (59:34):
Body, Body Okay, I'm sorry, body, It's okay, I pronounce it.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Okay, you got it, you got it.

Speaker 7 (59:40):
Thank you guys so much for welcoming me. I received,
you know, the energy from your panel you all you know,
I know I'm just talking in spirit right now. So yes,
I am here on that half of my baby to
be the voice through her. You know, this is very
challenging us, all interviews and different things. You don't do

(01:00:03):
what I'm speaking on her back, you know, for others.
But yeah, thank you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
We are honored to have you. We really are honored.
And we talk about this case and your daughter so often.
I know you and Courtney have been talking so regularly
as well, sort of offline on the show.

Speaker 7 (01:00:20):
Amazing.

Speaker 6 (01:00:21):
Yeah, and you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Know our hearts are really with you, and you know
you're the type of hero that really is something to
be inspired by.

Speaker 6 (01:00:31):
So thank you for sharing your story with us.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
Absolutely and the worst the work you've been doing, Sheena
is unbelievable. Can you can you tell us how did
the idea of Shadday's Voice foundation? How did that come about?
How did you how did that come about?

Speaker 7 (01:00:48):
Yeah? Yeah, thank you. So this is very like I move.
I'm a very spiritual person. You know, we are light workers.
My daughters are not. You know, we move in the universe,
you know, putting out positive energy always is how raising
my baby, you know, so like we for this that
come across us, you know, we were on such a

(01:01:11):
path you know as a mother. You know, she has
a younger sister, so I have another baby. She'll be
a senior this share and she's you know, she's headed
to us. W Madison has worked towards, say, you know,
getting those goals and applying herself throughout this trauma. But
you know there's many layers when you're a crime victim, okay,

(01:01:33):
and then just being a crime victim and walking through
this as a black woman, you know, in the way
just you know, being transparent so you know the others
can understand that for the bipop community, you know, receiving
the resources when your child is missing and murdered and
in this you know population of and it's for all,

(01:01:58):
I want to be clear, you know this is for
all missing and murder individuals, but specifically black and business
people of color are black and brown don't get the
same height and awareness when it comes to the reporting
and to be you know, keeping getting the story out,
like you know, like there is a difference, and so

(01:02:19):
like we that's how the foundation to answer your question.
You know, it kind of came to me very early
on in this so like how can you be going
through so much trauma? And like I just knew early on,
like within a month when I was planning her memorial
on her birthday, her twentieth birthday last year. You know,

(01:02:39):
she was my baby. I haven't seen my baby since
April the first of twenty and twenty four. I have
not seen my baby.

Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
It's unthinkable the last time. Yeah, I was just going
to say, and the memorial, of course, I only say
this through viewing news footage, but it was so beautiful
and to see that gathering and the beautiful singing and
everyone yeah, and everyone too, and is pink and oh.

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
The pink yeah, and the mural, the mural exactly.

Speaker 8 (01:03:15):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:03:16):
Oh my gosh, I got boosebumps too too. Oh my gosh,
I just got.

Speaker 5 (01:03:24):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:03:24):
So I pick up. You know. That's why I said,
your all energy is very good, and like, I don't
vibe with all journalists.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
I don't U.

Speaker 7 (01:03:32):
I'm gonna be honest, you know all you know, but
it's starting different energy with certain individuals. I pick and
choose that's going to tell the story. And you know,
and I appreciate and respect you guys for you know,
being able to get her story told as it needs
to be told on multiple platforms, not just for her,
but there's many others, you know, or the.

Speaker 5 (01:03:56):
Next one, the next woman that goes missing that's not
getting the media attention that they do to deserve, right,
And that's really in the space of SI's Voice foundation.

Speaker 7 (01:04:04):
It is, and we're going to be implementing you know,
self defense, facey. You know, oh my god, I found
Courtney Stephanie bought up body body body, okay body. Yeah,
it's implementing so many multiple things, and you know, it's
so challenging. I'm working with, you know, at the state representatives.

(01:04:28):
I Wisconsin state representative. She was stubbed in Madison. You know,
that's where my daughter is going to be going. Her
college at university was Constant Madison, and you know that's
where our legislate is, you know, is in the state
of Wisconsin. So you know, there's a lot of different
layers that you know, I'm learning as a private to

(01:04:50):
mom and challenges you have to go through, you know,
in the systemic barriers of not only trying to get
justice for your child. You go and breathe. Your whole
life has been this place. But it is it's multiple. Yeah,
it's very unthinkable. I would not wish this type of

(01:05:12):
situation on anyone and then you know the things we
have to go through in that two weeks unimaginable trial.
If you were in the courtroom, you know, I know
it's streams and like we had no control over We've
had no control over many things like with this this case,

(01:05:33):
my daughter's case has been very you know high media
broadcasted is streams like I didn't have an option to
tell the people. Look, I don't want the streams, like
I don't want the world to know this, But like
that whole things have have gone and worked, you know,
throughout the case, and there's a lot of different challenges
with being a crime victim, being having your information exposed,

(01:05:57):
you know, not having control, not being able well for
access your own you know, transcripts and reports in the
media gets it before you you know, the release of Unfeltrius.
There's so many challenges that we have had to deal
with and that I have had the advocate for, uh,
you know, being able to see the graphic photos of

(01:06:21):
my own child. Most parents are not going to do
this type of stuff, you know, like you know, this
was an option. I need to know the hell this
demon to you know, like right, both.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
No, he's a demon by the way, like, let's note,
can you can rip the band aid off of that?
Because this is an unspeakable crime and although we don't
want to, you know, put you through any of the details.
He it's unimaginable, which is why I think it's so
incredible that you're speaking up, because look, you know, you
said it yourself. Women of color are six times more

(01:06:55):
likely to be murdered, and then it's also under investigated,
so it's like a double a double crime in so
many ways. And having the four with you know, the
ability to to speak out during the times that you
did early on especially too and even now, it's a
lot to be.

Speaker 7 (01:07:15):
Like, yeah, thank you. This is not easy at all.
And I want to be very clear that the community
I have had a team of light workers. I'll call
them Shaddy's light Workers and Shaddy's Angels. So that's my son,
that's the foundation, that Shaddy's voice foundation.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Yeah, and listen, you know, I'm just curious because again
you you're you're sitting in a seat. That's a tough one, right,
It's it's real loss, and so many do and you know,
do you have any advice for other mothers who are
trying to push through after after something so tough, you know,
is there you have such a light energy about you,

(01:07:52):
it's it's really unbelievable.

Speaker 7 (01:07:54):
Well, now this is just only through again this my
baby shut Ice guides me daily. Uh, this is uh,
it's very over. It's over. It's just about walks in
the way I'm guided. It's the best that I can explain.
It is challenging. But no to any advice to There's

(01:08:16):
a lot of other moms that definitely that I have engaged,
you know, being a crime victim now, so like a
lot of we're gonna you know, be advocating other crime victims,
just kind of maneuvering. Now, that's you know, some of
the things I'm going to be providing through the foundation.
Just a lot with the you know, the local moms
that I have met. There's a lot of other Milwaukee

(01:08:38):
moms that have lost their babies. You know, Justice Taylor,
Justice and Diamond, you know, justice for you know, all
our babies. And you know, there's a lot of other
moms you know whose stories. There's a lot of grun guidance,
there's a lot of other things. There's other babies missing,
Justice for Jennia Walker, you know, like, yeah, she's still missing,

(01:08:59):
you know, as I'm working with her mother again. And
also like you know, I was mentioning earlier Wisconsin State
I'm representative, she was Stubbs. So we're working to reintroduce
the Missing and Murdered task Force for the third time.
So it's been he's been working on this for a
few years. Really and I honest, go ahead, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
No, really quick.

Speaker 5 (01:09:20):
I wanted to actually say, this is Bobby. I wanted
to say what the state representative, Sheila Stubbs said. She said,
and it's quite remarkable. She said, I will continue to
fight to create a Missing and Murdered African American Women
and Girls task Force in Wisconsin. I am grateful for
Miss Garborough's continued support of this legislative effort, and I

(01:09:41):
will not rest until we get something done for these
families across our state who are missing and greeting their
loved ones. It is our obligation as a state to
prevent the next homicide or missing person's case. And you know,
I really think that's a testament to shaw Day and
her the light that you feel from her right like
she is giving you that that battery basically to keep

(01:10:03):
moving forward. And I know that she's moved out and
she's so proud of you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
She's so proud of you. I know she is so
much honey.

Speaker 7 (01:10:11):
Oh my god, you guys. She she so bald. Oh
she was so balsd. She her own trips to Jamaica, y'all. Anyway, Yes,
she worked two jobs. Yes, my grand teacher shuttle. She
worked at with Constant Country Club and she booked her
own trips and had a support and everything. In January

(01:10:31):
twenty twenty four, did her own photo shoot. She's a model.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
I was about the beautiful.

Speaker 7 (01:10:36):
Hebby that was about to be her mommy manager. Oh,
death is the sad Robinson all day and every day
she's beautiful. That's what we do. ABS got the cimis
and yeah, the sentence is coming up August the first,

(01:10:57):
you know, after the cister thing. I definitely would like
to vibe and you know, I'm trying to work towards
getting a shot. A's voice speaks for victims podcast Oh
to be able to yes, And I would love for
you know, any mentors, sponsors. You know, I've never done
nothing like you know these things I'm doing running a
foundation uh, you know a nonprofit. This is a nonprofit,

(01:11:21):
you know, so I'm not you know, all donations, all support,
all you know anything sponsorship. You know, I'm putting this
into recycle back to other times victumtempings can people.

Speaker 5 (01:11:31):
They're interested can contact you. If people are interested in
those things for you can contact you through SHOT's Voice Foundation.

Speaker 7 (01:11:38):
Yes, definitely, yeah www dot shot as s A D E.
S Voice Foundation dot com and please have followed. You know,
this is again I'm one person, a little bit ol
g mama, you know, trying to manage the kid. Like
I'm a little old g mama. So like this is

(01:11:59):
new to me. Like you know, all those those different
you know, keeping up the media and I respect you
know you guys, which you do, and you know it's
a lot of multitasking and you know, being a podcast
or getting the information. This is a different platform and
you know, I have got respect for it. You know,
I wasn't really familiar, you know, all the social media,

(01:12:20):
all these different things, but you got to find different avenues. Yeah,
it's very hard that any way to get the information
out and please you guys with got her clothing line
as well on the website. Yes, yeah, we got her
workout fits the already in.

Speaker 4 (01:12:38):
It's amazing, you know, uploading too to.

Speaker 7 (01:12:45):
Have workout guess we got yoga workout fits there in
Black and Brown. The Shaddy's Voice Foundation, those are officially
please like, I got you guys, Like I'll in like
ship them out to you to get everything. Yeah, I'm
trying to get everything up welded on the way inside.
And you know, my baby, she's the vice president of

(01:13:07):
the foundation. She's like, that's your baby's sister. She's a boss.
Oh my gosh, he's so genius.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
I was going to say, the apples and the trees
don't fall far.

Speaker 6 (01:13:20):
We well know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:21):
Four point eight GPA. I was literally during the break
bragging on.

Speaker 6 (01:13:25):
Her to these guys.

Speaker 4 (01:13:26):
I was so you should I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Yeah, yeah, I have.

Speaker 6 (01:13:31):
An idea too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
I mean, listen, we have you here right like again,
I know we have There's so many other cases like this.

Speaker 6 (01:13:39):
It's a very underserved scenario.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Imagine that black and brown women their cases are six
times as much and not getting investigated. Maybe you can
come back weekly here and we can kind of keep
momentum going and highlight some of the other cases and
causes that it's a really big initiative for us, you know,
unfortunately to nauseating and you know, listen, whatever we can

(01:14:05):
do to chip in and help.

Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
I know, the audience and I'm speaking on.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
Behalf of all of us really want to help and support.
So whatever we can do to raise awareness and also
give a voice to other mothers who are experiencing other
things and other losses that you know, kind of need
to be shared.

Speaker 6 (01:14:25):
We kind of heal together. Everybody you know has a place.

Speaker 7 (01:14:28):
Yeah, that's what we got to do as a community.
And that's why you guys, y'all energy is so amazing
and I really appreciate that. Yeah, you y'all support and
for us to be able to get the other voices
and stories told and heard and definitely at least some
mentors for Shadow's.

Speaker 5 (01:14:45):
Voice of course, you got that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Yeah, I mean listen, you're the boss. You're the boss
of all those babies. We believe it takes a.

Speaker 7 (01:14:58):
It takes a village, and this is you know, like
I stayd you know, after the verdicts, you know, this
demon was not guilty and for verdicts and like I
you know, rightiated for like three minutes. Oh my gosh,
like it was. So I was like in a trance,

(01:15:19):
you know, like spiritually, like I can't explain, you know,
like having to see your child, you know, on this
level just member by this demon and you're sitting this
close like you know, spiritually, like I like I was
in a spiritual battle like whipperly literally in a courtroom,

(01:15:40):
like I can't explain it, Like I was in a trance,
like you know, I was in a spiritual um talking
to my babies, like you know, like I'm communicating her
like I'm She's a maneuver and me do everything I do.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Jail.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
I believe that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:55):
In the room. I can't imagine the restraint of Yeah.
So that's a battle of you one of you know,
composure and grace and.

Speaker 7 (01:16:04):
The family you know, and disrespectfully you know, like you
know we're past the criminal. I'm going into civil you know,
I'm getting everybody will be held accountable.

Speaker 9 (01:16:15):
You know, the family, you know for covering up and
hide and stuff. You know that demon Dad, you know
that that you know he's next. Don't play good, don't
play with me. Listen, don't play.

Speaker 4 (01:16:28):
You're a powerhouse. The powerhouse is right, so she know
we're about to be pretty rudely interrupted by music and commercials. Again,
so I want to do this in a civilized manner,
and we all want to thank you so profoundly for
coming on the show.

Speaker 7 (01:16:45):
You guys are so many.

Speaker 6 (01:16:47):
We're sending you so much light and love.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
Yeah, and vibe.

Speaker 7 (01:16:52):
I would love to come back weekly and vibe with
you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:16:55):
Definitely, absolutely will be in touch down you know, I'm
totally down. Probably tomorrow.

Speaker 9 (01:17:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:17:01):
Yeah, we brought you back tomorrow, yeah, exactly, so I.

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):
Will, we will. We will be keeping in very close touch.
And I'm just gonna shout out some information so everyone
has it. Shena, It's a Shadai's Voice is a family
run nonprofit. It carries out Shada's legacy by speaking out
for primarily underserved BIPOC, black, Indigenous people of color individuals

(01:17:26):
who are missing or murdered. And again, thank you for
being here. We will see you again. It has been
an absolute honor and everyone please make sure to go
to Shadi's Voicefoundation dot com for more information and updates
and to donate. You can also follow Shena on Instagram

(01:17:48):
at Shina Scarborough.

Speaker 6 (01:17:50):
I'm following you right now, Shina.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
I'm gonna add you make sure you accept, and we're
gonna buy some workout clothes in honor of Shahdah. And yes,
let's give a shot A's voice a voice here, right,
So maybe we just make this a regular segment that
we can do weekly because unfortunately you're not alone in this,
and just know that we all got your back.

Speaker 4 (01:18:12):
Percent does this alone and we are with you.

Speaker 5 (01:18:16):
So yeah, you know that was kind of one of
the mandates of us kind of getting together too, right,
was to raise awareness for cases that we felt weren't
you know, we were getting underserved and no attention. So
she's just so she I just got the chills from her,
and I just really enjoyed her energy and I just
can't imagine the strength that it takes for her to
do this every day. But I truly believe shot Day's

(01:18:38):
light is inside of her.

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
She got it from somewhere, right, That's right. That is
for sure. Such a great night, everybody. Thank you, ladies.
I'm crazy for you and I just love getting to
hang with you. And yeah, listen, we're off tomorrow back
on Sunday, so make sure you join us. This is
true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time,
have a great night, stay safe,