When Misogyny Becomes Manifesto: Ohad Fisherman’s Trial, Allegations Against the Alexander Brothers, and the Infamous Elliot Rodger

Investigating incels — the rising ideology that inspired Bryan Kohberger. In 2014, Elliot Rodger carried out a deadly rampage in Isla Vista. His manifesto became a blueprint for the incel movement and online misogyny. Also, charged in Romania and the UK, Andrew and Tristan Tate now face a fresh probe by Florida’s attorney general. A talkback sparks red pill / blue pill controversy. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, and we're talking
true crime all the time. It's Sunday, July sixth, and
we hope you had an amazing holiday weekend. We have
a stack night of headlines.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Believe it or not.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
The Tape Brothers they are fighting international charges in multiple countries.
If you're not sure who the Tape Brothers are, buckle up.
And also the rising ideology that's coming out of this
Brian Coburger new verdict or actually his change of plea,
I should say Brian Coburger is the person who's now
taken full responsibility for all four counts in the Idaho

(00:44):
college murders. And we're going to be kind of doing
a deep dive into something called in cells and if
you're not familiar, we're talking dark web and really important stuff,
so please stay with us. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I
head of Katie Studios, where we make true crime podcasts
like The Idaho Massacre, Murder one oh one and The
Piked and Massacre, as well as documentaries. And I get

(01:08):
to do that with Courtney Armstrong, who is the voice
of many of these podcasts. And also crime analyst Body
move in. You'll remember her from Donuf with Kats, the
Emmy Award winning Netflix documentary. And before we go too
too much further, I just want to say that our
hearts are so with Texas tonight, so much chaos and

(01:28):
confusion and loss. I just want everyone to know that
we are all rallying in spirit and sending our prayers
for anyone who was still missing loved ones. And also
on behalf of Kat's studios, thank you for watching our
documentary The Idaho Student Murders, which is airing now on Peacock.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's number one in the country.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I say that not to talk about ratings, but really
just to say for the families of the victims, the
Mogan family, the Gonzalvez family, the Kernodle family, and the
Shape and family. I hope that is an example of
how much we all care. The whole country is really
rallying for you and sending you our prayers. On a

(02:09):
lighter note, true Crime tonight, this show. We're so grateful
for you to be listening. It's been four weeks since
our launch and it's been number one in true crime
since day one, So we are entering week five. Our
twenty sixth episode is tonight. That means like fifty plus
hours of live content and none of that would make

(02:30):
any sense if you guys were a not listening and
also calling in. So remember eight eight eight three one crime.
We really want to hear your opinions. They do not
have to be like ours, Like jump in, join the conversation,
and if you want to leave a talk back, which
is kind of like a voice memo, just download the
iHeart app and in the top right hand corner you

(02:50):
can press this button and leave us a message and
that will be on the show and kind of a
jumping off point for us to have a conversation.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
We want to hear your opinion.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
You can always hit us up on our socials too,
at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, and
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. So putting all of
that aside, if you've been on vacation or frankly under
a rock, there's been some big developments last week in
the p Didty case and also the Idaho college murders.
So Courtney, do you want to bring us up to

(03:21):
speed on just the headlines that we've been tracking all week?

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Absolutely Brian Coberger, thirty year old former criminal justice PhD student.
After a year and a half of proclaiming his innocence,
he pled guilty. This happened on July second, and this
was for the November thirteenth, twenty twenty two murders of
four innocent and beautiful University of Idaho students, kille Gonsalvez,

(03:46):
Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Shapin, in exchange for
avoiding the death penalty.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
That's what basically, that's what the guilty plea was for.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
So he will not face the death penalty, there will
not be a trial, and he also gave up the
right to any and all appeals.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
So that is what happened. It was a big and
surprising change. Yeah. Time change seemingly came out of nowhere.
Just a week prior, the judge ruled, you know, that
they couldn't introduce new suspects that they thought were suspects,
and the judge denied, you know, delaying the trial. So
it was a very big surprise that, you know, a
few days after, the judge said, well, you can't blame

(04:25):
any more people now that they're playing you know, so
you know, there's some criticism and rightfully so that how
dare you know they try to blame other people when
he's guilty the whole time.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
There's been a lot of criticism of that and for
other people, for other people. Correct were who they wanted to.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Write, which physical names were in print and at public disposal,
so you know, just you know, as a reminder, it
has been two and a half years since the murders
and Brian Coberger claiming his innocence also putting names out
there where you know, that puts a lot of people
in jeopardy.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
You can figure out even though it's you're adapted, you
can figure out who they're talking about absolutely if you
know the case, you know who they're talking about.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
You knew within thirteen seconds who they were talking to
and that even the adacted information went out, so you know, yes,
there's best case scenarios is things are getting redacted, meaning
like almost like sharp eed out, so you know, some
key names and details are always removed for some of
this public documentation, but it's not super hard to figure out.
So you know, Brian Coberger, even in the eleventh hour,

(05:27):
was really pointing the finger elsewhere and causing more chaos
and confusion, and for for everyone us included, you know,
as audience members who have been following it closely. I
think we were all just got punched.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah, that's right, and we will continue following even later
in the week. We're going to do a real deep
dive into the evidence that we know about, which is
a lot. So we will continue following this In p
Diddy News, his federal case updates. So this was the
trial that really everyone was watching. He was charged Manhattan

(06:00):
Federal Court with five counts a racketeering conspiracy, two counts
of sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, two counts
of transportation for prostitution that was under the Man Act.
And he was found guilty only of the two lesser
charges of the five, and that was for transportation of prostitution.
Each count carries up to ten years in prison. We'll

(06:22):
see what happens. We do not yet have a date
for when the sentencing will happen. I believe the judge
said October is what he was pushing for. The defense
wanted it much quicker, so we will.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
All October seems outrageous, it does. It's months away, I know.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
But that's the standard, right so or standard because this
is a very divisive topic. Just to kind of lay
out both sides. On the one hand, the prosecution and
the victims and those that are Antiddy, dare I say,
you know, they think the longer the better, and that
this was a sham verdict and that the prosecution did
appropriately prove some key things, but maybe the presentation didn't

(07:03):
quite land. Obviously it didn't with the jurors, but you know,
they feel like he got a he got a free walk.
On the other side of that is, look, he was
brought up on two charges that does in fact have time.
Did he has been you know, serving prison time or
jail time and not great conditions for close to a year.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Now is that enough?

Speaker 2 (07:22):
If maybe it wasn't Diddy and was some stranger off
the street, that person probably would have been released in
home on bail. Here's the next third thought, which is
they did prove he was very violent, and you know,
this is something that could kind of spawn a revenge
tour from you know, pro Diddy people, for people who

(07:42):
testified against him. So I don't know where I sit
in it. The whole thing kind of has exhausted me.
Emotionally behind words that I'm actually excited to talk about
new things.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
So one thing I.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Will say is, Stephanie, you said, oh, you know, if
he was any other Joe, he'd be he'd be home. Well,
keep in mind he has not on limited resources but
close to it seems, so, you know, gigantically a flight risk.
And also he is dangerous. He even after the indictment,
he then was still abusing people. Correct, So anyway, he's

(08:14):
not a Joe on the street. He's got a lot
of resources. So I think that was the absolute correct call.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
You're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Body
Moven and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Blaudecker.
And right now we're right in the middle of talking
about Diddy. We want to know your thoughts. Do you
think the sentence was appropriate? Do you think sentencing in
October is outlandish? Give us a call one eight eight
eight thirty one crime or leave us a talkback on
the iHeartRadio app and we have a talkback. Can we

(08:41):
hear that Diddy talkback?

Speaker 4 (08:43):
A Hi, my name is Sarah. And in terms of
the Diddy case, do you think that part of them.
Having a hard time structuring the hierarchy of the enterprise
came a little bit from the fact that his right
hand man was a woman, this KK, that you know,
we didn't hear very much about, and you guys have
talked about maybe they're going to prosecute her. But either way,

(09:04):
do you think that had difficulty through a wrench in it?

Speaker 1 (09:07):
What's a great question. I did not even think about that.
It's an interesting question.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
I my gut, my knee jerk reaction is no, particularly
since she wasn't actually in court.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
So yeah, nobody was in court though there was not
a single person in court for the defense, not a
single person. By the way, Kanye West, who has collaborated
apparently with one of Ditty's sons on a recent release
of a song, he was there for ten minutes.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
So other than.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
That, there has been nobody standing with Diddy by Diddy
from Diddy like nobody. So the fact that KK wasn't there,
and KK is not Kim Kardashian, KK is Christina Korum,
who was his chief of staff and a former executive
of Bad Boys, maybe it's not not a clean slate
because we do know that there's fifty plus civil lawsuits

(09:58):
that are now popping up against Ditty from various victims,
none of which were part of this trial, and she's
cited in many of those. So maybe what doesn't work
in the courtroom criminally works in the wallet.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
So is the idea that because the chief of staff,
who is you know, charged with kind of organizing some
of these things for Ditty? Is the idea that she's
because she's a woman, she wouldn't necessarily be like a
predator of some kind and therefore the jury didn't find
the organization in like a criminal enterprise? Is that the
idea it's.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Like sexism in a criminal way, in some upside down parallel.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
I never thought about that until she said that. What
a good question.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Insightful, But keep in mind, I guess I don't know
only that, Yeah, like there is.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
One parallel worth mentioning.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Though.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
You know, Ditty's case often gets kind of referred to
as similar to the Epstein case in terms of racketeering,
sex trafficking, etc. And you know Epstein infamously had Gelaane Maxwell,
who was his right arm, and she is serving time
in prison and was brought up on charges. So in

(11:04):
that case, that theory didn't apply, but I don't know did.
He's like been a shake up for all of us.
I think that's a really interesting point. I don't even
know what to respond.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
I know, yeah, it's interesting, but I also think many
women do many of the horrible things. Listen, KK was
not on trial, so you know, who's to say.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
But so I wonder if a man was running the
show that she has a chief of staff, would Diddy
have made that man more involved? Because there, you know,
there were techs that said, you know, I don't want
KK to know or I don't want KK involved. I
wonder if it was a man, would that man have
been more involved in these you know, setups? And this

(11:45):
the enterprise maybe laid out in a more cleanly way.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Interesting, and perhaps we hear from some capacity now that
this trial is over, you know, even if it's just
to share her perspective in a judgment for you place,
I would have to assume she's being a low profile.
But I too was surprised that she was a no
show at the trial period.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
No me, I was too. And maybe we will, maybe
we won't. We're at the stay tuned. Coming up next,
the mother of an infamous mass shooter is helping identify
warning signs, what should we be looking for, and the
story of how two brothers went from selling real estate
to Kim Kardashian to being charged for sex trafficking. Keep
it right here, True Crime Tonight or We're talking true

(12:24):
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. Look, we are switching gears
into new topics. Let's leave ditty behind for the evening.
Let's leave coburger behind for the evening. Let's talk about
the Tape Brothers and their influence and what it means
to be in this misogynistic culture. I'm learning about this
real time, and also the shocking allegations against the real

(12:59):
estate mogul, the Alexander brothers, lots of brothers in the
headlines right now. The Tape Brothers, as mentioned earlier, are
being brought up on charges in multiple countries. They are
fighting that, and we're going to unpack body. I know
you've been following this very very closely. In Cells is
a word that we're using a lot internally and will
continue to do so and teach about or learn about together.

(13:22):
But yeah, this is something very close to your heart.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, you know, I'm really interested in what things that
happen on the internet. You've probably heard this term in
cell tossed around online, but what does it actually mean.
It stands for in voluntarily celibate, and it describes people,
usually men. There are female in cells are called fem cells.
But for the purposes of this discussion, we're just going

(13:45):
to be talking about the men, because we're talking about
in cell specifically, and these men and they're usually young,
I would say, in their twenties, and they start this
ideology in their teens. But it's usually men who feel
like they can't get into romantic or sexual relationships no
matter how hard they try. As I'm sure will become
really clear, all the cases that we're covering tonight have
one thing in common. They all the alleged perpetrators and

(14:08):
all these cases are all associated with this misogynistic rhetoric
that has been linked to an increase in violence against women.
So it's a very serious topic. And a new study
published in the Journal of Gender and Education out of
Canada is finding that boys are adopting Andrew Tate's misogynistic
views and bringing them into class, which is quite alarming.

(14:29):
Teachers worry that the rise in Tate inspired misogynistic rhetoric
will lead to tangible safety threats like gender based violence
in schools. Researchers wrote in this article, So, who are
the Tate brothers. You've never heard of him, right, Like,
that's where we're going to go. So Andrew Tate he
is a former four time kickboxing world champion, and he

(14:50):
was on Big Brother UK, which, of course I love
the Big Brother. Everybody who knows me knows body loves
Big Brother. I'm obsessed with Big Brother. Well, he was
on Big Brother in twenty sixteen and he was kicked
off because as he was like on the show, charges
were being filed against him in the UK for rape.
Andrew Tait was charged with rape in the UK and

(15:11):
they removed him from Big Brother. The UK authorities have
cited his influence as terrifying, particularly in the content of
the context of radicalizing boys online, and that's exactly what's
happening young boys too, middle schoolers in theory, right, I
would say probably starts around seventh or eighth grade around
that time. Yeah, that's right, around that time. He moved

(15:33):
to Romania in twenty seventeen, saying in a now deleted
YouTube post that forty percent of the reason he chose
Eastern Europe was because he believed that sexual assault cases
were less likely to be investigated there. I mean, this
guy is misogyny, and he openly declares himself a misogynist
dating an interview. I'm absolutely a misogynist. There's no way

(15:53):
you can be rooted in reality and not be sexist.
I was gonna say.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Plenty of people have responded, so yes, millions of millions listen.
But also he had a podcast on Spotify. It was
taken down after complaints from users. There was an online
petition signed by more than ninety two thousand people, and
it was the degree course and something was titled pimping
Hose and that was deemed to be in breach of

(16:19):
a company's rules.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
But well, he's got hot water. He's gotten banned from
almost every single platform, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. He continues
on X because X is kind of like the wild
wild West, right, everybody can be on X, but it's
due to this promotion of this misogyny. Due to this
promotion and statements such as women should bear responsibility for
being sexually assaulted. Yeah, so he's not a good guy.

(16:43):
He runs a webcam company and he would show other
men or talk to other men about how to be
a sex trafficker and how to scam money out of
girls in how women are your property and yes, you
absolutely should be making money and stealing from them. It's
pretty bad. So he's not a good guy. The Romanian courts.

(17:04):
He moved to Romania on twenty seventeen, right, I told
you all that already. And he was arrested in twenty
twenty two for sex trafficking seven women and money laundering
and rape. The Romanian courts abruptly reversed the charges and
allowed Tate to leave the country after several high level
Trump administrators took an official interest in this case. Andrew
Tate is a US citizen. He's got dual citizenship with

(17:27):
the United States in Britain. So can I ask one
just layman's questions.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
You said he was on Big Brother, the reality show,
but the K version, So I have not seen that.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
I was like, I don't recall him at all. You
haven't seen that K version? Essay? Do I have to
start that tonight? Yes, you have to start that it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's incredible that and below deck, I have a lot
of TV to watch tonight.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
I really where to start. Well, for now, you have
to stay right here because this is true crime tonight
on iHeartRadio. I'm Body Move and I'm here with Courtney
Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and we're talking about the Tate Brothers.
Give us a call eight at eight thirty one crime
or tell us your thoughts on the iHeart ap and
we have a talk back.

Speaker 5 (18:02):
This is Matthew from Boston and I just wanted to
talk about the Tape Brothers and their content. I'm a
big fan of what they put out on most social
media platforms. I think they tell it like it is.
I think women kind of overreact. I think they tell
the younger generation and stuff how to like be men,
and yeah, we kind of need that these days.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
So yeah, first of all, can I just jump in.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
I'm happy that Matthew is leaving us a talk back,
like to keep the conversation. We don't all have to
agree to have the conversation. So Matthew, we're very grateful
for your opinion, so thank you for sharing it.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
And by the way, we want everybody to share those
I got to kind.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Of think on that, Matthew for a hot second, because
you know, is that really what we need right now?
I'm not totally landing with that, but I wish you
called us so maybe you could.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Set a straight, yeah conversation. I'd love to have a
conversation about why, like what specifically about the Andrew Tate
theology is helping young men become men, because right now
I don't think it really. I don't think it is.
I don't think it's helping at all. And I think
that if fathers were more involved in their children's life,
they wouldn't need Andrew Tate to help them become men.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
I gotta be honest, I really understand where Matthew is
coming from. He on his face Andrew Tate. He is athletic,
he is powerful, he is confident, he has money. And also, societally,
we are all so much on our devices. Listen, no
one more than me, but listen. If you are sitting

(19:33):
there in your room and you're trying to figure out
your hormones because you're in middle school, and here is
a guy who is all those things I just listed,
I understand one follow It's appealing, be powerful, be a man,
So I really understand it. It terrifies me to my core,

(19:53):
but I get it.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
But isn't that so scary too?

Speaker 2 (19:55):
As we're coming off the Diddy trial where we physically
saw puff Daddy, did he beating a woman on camera, which,
by his own admission is part of his jam, not
his favorite quality about himself, but by his own admission,
did he says? Yeah, you know, this was I'm violent,
domestically violent, and that should be okay, and jurors said

(20:18):
that it was. We're following Brian Coberger, who was you know,
basically said yeah, sure, I did it. I killed four people,
three of which were women. Just because we don't know
why yet, We're going to be following that very closely.
But obviously there's something low key happening there to want
to take lives so callously.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
That's a scary thing.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
And is Andrew Tate messaging something that is equal to saying, hey, look, yeah,
sexually assault people.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Ain't no thing.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
It's that's the scary part, because even confident, well spoken, rich,
affluent people can still be extremely degrading and violent. And
I think it's a scary thing for people who are
victims that are going up against this. It's in the
bones Ideologically, how do we keep this conversation going without

(21:08):
shutting it down and being myopic about it? And not
only that'll talk about stuff we won't really like find
the solve.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
And how do we have this conversation with pushing people
like Matthew who called and left us that talk back
disagreeing with us. Basically, how do we have this conversation
without pushing those people away? Right?

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Like?

Speaker 1 (21:26):
We want to keep we want to keep everybody included
and not exclude right because we want to change hearts
and minds and have conversations that openly discuss these topics.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
I think it's also what is the better And I
don't know the answer to this, What is the better
alternative to young boys, young men than listening to Andrew
Tate his eleven million followers on us?

Speaker 1 (21:48):
You know? They and his brother by the way, Trisian, Oh,
the brother, Yeah, we can't forget him. He runs the
business with Andrew Tate. They have a webcam studio where
they employ as many as seventy five models. And what
they do is they just scam in out of their money.
An online membership to the platform which taught with teaches
men how to get rich quick. It's called Hustlers University,

(22:09):
and the other one is called The Real World that
serves like a really similar purpose. And he self describes
himself Christian Tate, as a pimp. I mean, they're not
hiding it. These guys are not hiding that they're pimps.
But I want to quickly let everybody know he is not.
The Tate brothers are not in cells, but what is
important to know is that they share like really similar ideology.

(22:31):
They're all kind of misogynistic, and you know, some in
cells admire Tate, seeing him as somebody who's escaped this
powerless male role that they feel trapped in. So Andrew
Tate and the Tate brothers are not in cells, but
again they're in the then diagram of in cells and Tate.
The circle where they intersect is rather large.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
And that's what's the answer for young people, as young
boys are coming up, like, what is the alternative?

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Is such a great question.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
I certainly don't have the answer, but I think they
should be an ongoing convo that we try to at
least exposure to the answers.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
And you know, I'm learning too. I would love to
have conversations with people that know a lot more than
I do, because I you know, I'm trying to understand
it too. I'm yeah, And I think.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
We will be talking about them for sure, both Andrew
and Tristan Tate. They're currently facing multiple charges in Romania
and the UK, and now a Florida Attorney General has
opened a preliminary criminal investigation into them.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
And yes, I did not know that.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yes, so this is going to be big. We will
be following it. And also there's there's gonna be a
lot of courtroom time for these guys.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Right, and like is Matthew saying he loves sexual assault?
Where Matthew was saying he loves what is it that
he loves about the tape?

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Brothers?

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Like, if you have an opinion on this, please jump
in eighty eighty three to one crime. We are a
safe audience to talk, but you have to call us
to participate. Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Oh,

(24:06):
we're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
There's been a ton of news this week, but we
are moving on to some new topics. We're going to
be talking about how mass murderer Elliott Rogers. You might
not remember him, but he was back in the Santa
Barbara days. He was quote unquote an inceell And that's
going to be sort of our unpack of the evening
and much more on that to come and even nights
later because it's a very heavy, big topic and it's meaningful.

(24:30):
And also, you know, there's been this very high profile
case in the news with these Miami brothers who have
been charged with sex trafficking. We covered it, you know,
several weeks ago. There were all these videos that were
leaking and it was very unexpected about this mayhem in Miami,
and Courtney.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
You've been doing a deep dive into this.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah, a friend of the Alexander brothers was accused of
joining in a gang rape and that is set for
trial next week. In fact, so this friend of the
Alexander b others, Ohad Fisherman, was charged along with Alan
and Orin Alexander. This was in December, and this was
for allegedly pinning down a twenty five year old woman

(25:10):
in a Miami Beach apartment. It's happened back in twenty
sixteen on New Year's Eve. So the Alexander brothers for
anyone who is not conversant orin in tal they are
celebrity real estate brokers. They have brokeered record breaking deals,
including a two hundred and forty million dollar penthouse in Manhattan.

(25:30):
It was the most residential the highest residential stale in
US history at the time. Client tell lots of famous
people given the money, Kanye West, Kim Kardashian, who somehow
we've now said her name three times in the show.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
She is not accused of anything.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
And both of these brothers were featured in the Forbes
thirty under thirty for real estate back in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
So they are big deal professionals. Yeah, they're I mean,
that's high real estate, right, that's a lot of money.
Can't they do better things with their time? Though?

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Like all that money, all that influence, all that power.
These are like young, successful, affluent you know air quotes
handsome men with a lot of ability to do extraordinary things.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
What a bummer in there, And they've been doing some,
you know, according to the allegations, doing some real terrible things.
So the trial that I mentioned before with Ohad Fishermen,
it's going to begin in Miami Tuesday of this week.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Actually, oh, it's starting Tuesday. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
And he is expected to go to trial alone because
the Alexander brothers they're busy facing their in federal custody
for their sex trafficking cases. Oh wow, yeah, so interesting.
It's a superseding federal indictment that was filed back in May,
and it had new sex trafficking charges, including trafficking a minor,

(26:50):
and it named six alleged victims. And Alan and Oran's
trial is scheduled for January twenty twenty six.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
You think they're all watching the Diddy trial and excited
by the outcome of the Didy trial, Like this just
reinforces that it's fine. By the way, I love Miami,
shout out to South Beach and the greatness that is there.
So this is a real blemish on an incredible city
in my opinion. But yeah, do you think they're like
behind bars thinking we're going to totally walk like nobody

(27:19):
cares about women and trafficking and so.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
What, especially in federal court.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I'm not at all, which is interesting because federal
car court, which I've learned from you guys, has such
a high what's it called when you get a guilty
verdict high.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
It's like a ninety eight percent, yeah, winning rate on
the words escaping me as wow, I'm.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Able to speak about this, but like I do, they
usually win. The Feds don't play right, that's the shtick.
If the Feds are bringing you on charges, they have
a ninety eight percent success rate when they go to trial.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
And Diddy was, you know, far from that, far far
far from that. I mean, I'm sure they're watching that going,
you know even. I mean, this was such a high
publicity case too, so there's additional pressure from the masses
right to get in this guilty verdict and it fell
flat on his face.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
Well, the brothers are actually being held, Stephanie, you are
going to perk up at this. They are being held
with Ditty at the Metropolitan Detention Center in the Ditty's there,
and they're the legend murderer of United Healthcare CEO Luigi
man Gione is also there.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
What ate this show? Okay?

Speaker 2 (28:24):
So we have to just like stop right there for
one quick second, quick beat, quick beat, quick, let me
take this in. So Didty allegedly going to be there
until October till sentencing, and chances are he'll have time
served and like Beauty, he's buds and roommates with Sam Bankman,
the you know, infamous white collar fraud who's also serving time.

(28:46):
They're actual roommates. We know Luigi is there and now
these brothers are also there. What the heck is happening
in this Brooklyn location?

Speaker 1 (28:54):
I wonder if you know what'll be interesting to see
is if these Alexander brothers don't put on a defense, right,
I think it's going to be like, let's watch for that. Yeah,
let's put that on a radar to see if they
put on a defense. Are they taking cues from what
did he did?

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Like?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
This is so ridiculous, We're not even putting a defense on.
These charges are utterly preposterous, right, not worth father putting
a defense on, that's right.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
See, And they're charged with really some absolutely hideous and
violent things. Their legal troubles began back when a real
estate publication it was called The Real Deal, published an
article about how two women filed lawsuits against the brothers.
This is back in June of twenty twenty four. Since then,
allegations absolutely have snowballed. One common refrain in the women's

(29:43):
complaints is that the brothers it is hard to say.
Often took turns assaulting them while others watched or pinned
them down. And these allegations go back to as far
as when the brothers were in high school. What take
that in?

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Pardon me take it in? How? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (30:00):
How triggering is this for anybody who's been a victim
of sexual assault. I'm sorry that you're even hearing this,
because again, it just like makes it like the the
cards are stacked. It's kind of stacked against victims, is
what it sounds like. I wish my brother was working
for the prosecution. Still, my brother, Richard Lidecker, he would
not have it. And you know, as a mate lawyer

(30:22):
and ask him questions about this, Yeah, he would not
be okay, and he would make them serve time.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh I love your brother. Well, this is true crime
Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Body Moven and I'm here with
Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Lydecker and right now we're right
in the middle of talking about these Alexander brothers and
these federal charges that they are facing. So their try
whose trial starts this week again A friend, Oh had fisherman,
Oh hot fisherman. And that's the cutains, that's the friend

(30:48):
of theirs. It's the friend theirs. And so they're being held.
The Anders Alexander brothers are being held in federal prison
right now. When is their trial expected to start? January
fifth of twenty twenty six. We are about six months away,
six months away from there. And body you had asked
how old they are, they're in their mid to late thirties.
Oh my Christmas. Young. What a waste? What a waste?

Speaker 4 (31:10):
You know.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
What one thing I will say about the Diddy trial,
it is a little bit of a handbook about, you know,
how to do bad things and get away with it,
you know. And I'm glad we have the opportunity to
talk about it and kind of unpack it because it's
controversial and it's not everybody you know, agrees with me personally,
and that's completely fine. Obviously jurors don't as well. But

(31:31):
I'm glad we get to look at it and understand
it a bit better, because again, we don't want to
give a green light to other people to behave badly
and mistreat women or men.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
You know, it's just not okay, or you.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Know, if you're crazy for Diddy, these guys, you know,
will probably get a free ride too well.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
And a lot or several of the counts against them
are identical to Diddy. So there are three brothers and
all three face charges of conspiracy to commit sex trap picking,
three accounts of sex trafficking by force, fraud or coercion,
which you remember from Ditty, and account of inducement to
travel to engage in unlawful sexual activity.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
That sounds like the transportation. It's very similar to the
Tape brothers. They're you know, in Romania. They were facing
thirty five charges of trafficking.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Wow, so trafficking the way, you know, because I think
that was a tricky thing. Even in the Ditty tribe.
We think of trafficking, we think of a young girl
who's like taken against the will out of a public
bathroom and like you know, shipped off to a different like.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
A shipping container and like correct in Long Beach charbor,
you know, and then she's off to Singapore exactly. And
that's what misuble everything trafficking is, right, It's almost like
we need a different name for what's happening, even though
that's literally what this is is sex trafficking. But it's
almost like we need a different name for it, because
that's what I think of too. I'm guilty of it.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah, I agree, but I think it's broadening the definition
or having people comprehend that what has occurred or you know,
what I believe occurred with Ditty was trafficking.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
My sexual escorts that were put across state lines, whether
that's from Las Vegas to California or to Paris, because
x Cassie Ventura in the Ditty case, claimed that she
had to have sex with escorts to please Ditty and
that oftentimes they would travel with this gaggle of escorts

(33:25):
across state lines or even to different countries. Is that
trafficking or is that I am agreeing to have sex
with somebody under my own will and I happened to
be in across country flight.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Right, And that's what I think. That's what's confusing. And
there's no clear line, right, Like if if we want
to be empowering women, if some women want to be
you know, selling themselves for money, that's their right. Like
at what point is it trafficking versus willing?

Speaker 3 (33:54):
When it's coercion and force and listen, it doesn't matter
if it's a cargo ship or a private plane.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, said Courtney Armstrong very well said, I would love
to have the Punisher on. He's the escort that's doing
a lot of press right now, who is an escort
in the Ditty Cassie Ventura triangle. And he's an interesting speaker.
He's so sophisticated he is. I think he's kind of
I find him interesting beyond him, has a very unique perspective,

(34:20):
and I feel like he's walked a very tight line
in a very interesting way about his participation, his interpretation
of things.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
It feels polished a little bit though, like he's got
to have pr because he is just so well spoken,
so eloquent. He hasn't really like said Diddy's a bad guy.
I mean, he's really walked that line right. He's done
a really good job of that.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
I wouldn't mind having him on. I hope if he's
listening that he'll join us because I have a few questions,
a few, I bet or one hundred thousand questions.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
But this is a case we will be following as
it expands. The Alexander twins are also charged with aggravated
sex abuse by and there are many victims coming forward
in many different lawsuits.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Wow so and it's all, are they all in Florida,
all these victims? Do you know? We we can dig
into it, but I try of wonder if they are.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
And also, you know, we want to talk about in Cells,
which is you know, being connected to Brian Coburger. He's
the man who has now taken full of responsibility air
quotes to the Idaho college murders. And it's been a
shocking week. But we want to now go deeper, not
just report on the crime, but sort of the why

(35:32):
not the who, the why, And you know that's a
big topics to be but I think all week and
certainly tonight as well, we're going to start digging into
in cells, which is close to our hearts, and Body
is going to sort of teach us about the dark web,
which is the scariest place ever.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, so my friend Michelle shout out Michelle, Michelle, she
just texted me. I told her to leave a talk back,
but I don't think she can at the moment. But
she said this exactly Body. All of us teachers of
all boys are working hard to counter that tape culture.
Now it's important to know Michelle is a teacher in
Florida and she teaches at an all boys school and

(36:15):
she it's middle school. By the way, she's a saint. Idea, Michelle,
you have no idea. It breaks my heart. She has
to make Amazon wish lists of things that she needs
to teach, you know, our future generations. It's she's she's incredible.
She's a science teacher. I love it. I love it.
But so it's good to know though, that teachers are
you know, educated on this already, right, that she already

(36:38):
knows about, she already knows about in cells. She already is,
you know, recognizing what a problem it is, and that
it's affecting her students. That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Absolutely, it's so pervasive. And even a friend of mine
was talking and their child goes to what you would
call a really nice school and it's also middle school.
And what a lot of the boys were saying and repeating,
is your body my choice? Woo so and yes, these
are twelve and thirteen and fourteen times.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
And by the way, look when you're twelve and thirteen.
I'm not a therapist, but I would have to assume,
you know, people are repeating what they're hearing. Nobody really
has the layered, you know, real sense of what that means,
you know, their brains aren't there yet or we know
on people, Yeah, you just sort of like repeat a
curse word without actually meaning the understanding, the intention.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
So I'm not minimizing it.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'm just saying, thank goodness for Saint Michelle's who are
you know, digging in and doing God's work for us. Also,
if you haven't seen the Netflix series, I think it's
Netflix the it's called Adolescence.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
It's a tough watch, tough watch, important stuff.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Though really well executed, incredibly acting. I mean, it's a
scripted series. It's not a documentary based on true events.
It's like a scripted look and frankly it's a look
into inceels, right so, and it's young and it's heart wrenching,
and the spirit is everybody should be watching Adolescens despite

(38:07):
its dark content.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
You know with their young men that they're real and
it's in you know, we're going to get into it
in a little a little bit later, but you know
in cells are it's a very sad situation, right You
want to you don't want your kid to be sad.
You don't want your kid to be your child to
be you know this mentally entrenched in this subculture that
basically says, you know that they're they're not good enough

(38:31):
or they're not you know, whatever enough. So you you
do want to recognize it, not only so they don't come,
you know, violent against women, but you don't want, you
don't your kid to end up this way, you know.
So it's important that we get into the stuff so
that even mothers can start recognizing these things, thankfully.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Especially Oh well, listen, we're going to talk about in
cells in the deepest way. I know, we say that
word a lot, but we're actually going to describe to
you what that is.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
So stay with us.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Next segment, we're talking to Tate Brothers, the Alexander Brothers.
This is true Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all
the time. Welcome back to true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

(39:19):
We are talking true crime all the time. By the way,
thank you for watching our documentary The Idaho Student Murders,
dropped this weekend on Peacock number one in the country,
so we hope you'll check it out. Such an important
unpack of this hideous case. You know, Brian Coberger, if
you haven't heard pled guilty this week after two and

(39:39):
a half years of saying he didn't do it, and
we were all real caught off guard. So it was
a race to the finish line. And we're very grateful
that the documentary is out there. I had to say,
I'm so grateful to watch.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
I have to say something. I have nothing. I have
nothing to do with the documentary, all right, I have
nothing to do with it. But I want to tell you,
as somebody who knows the case really well inside and out,
every every minute that happened, I am happy to recommend
your documentary to all my friends who are asking me
what is this Idaho case? I want to know more

(40:11):
about it, who have never known anything about the case,
they can watch this documentary. It is so victim forward,
right it has to be, and it goes into detail
about maybe what happened that night in a really respectful
I mean as respectful as possible. And I'm very proud
to know you and I think you guys did a
great job.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
First of all, I'm so grateful because I was secretly
worried about you know, you seeing it, both of you
for that matter. It's great in terms of you know,
we're all very close to this case. You know, Courtney
is the voice of the Idaho Massacre, the podcast which
the documentary is inspired by. So you know, we've been
all in it for a really long time, and everybody

(40:50):
at kat Gabe, who is with us here tonight, also
working behind the scenes. It was a little bit of
a race to the finish line because truthfully it wasn't
really supposed to air until the trial, and we were
sweating that too, because we didn't want it to influence
the trial in any way. We weren't looking to convict
Brian Coberger, the accused, which I feared was maybe happening

(41:14):
in the press. You know, it's you know, it was
a very frenzied case and we wanted to of course
always be very victim forward.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
That's sort of the spirit of all of us here.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
And once that broke and he confessed, it was a
really long week getting it to the drop.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
So the drop, I say that like, I'm you know,
so cool. So that's a streamers call. It was just drop.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
So I say that with like kind of cringe, but
I don't know how else to say it. But you know,
work with me here, bear with me, and I hope
you'll check it out. It's on Peacock and also, you know,
I have a listen to the podcasts. There's two seasons,
and we'll also be doing a podcast with iHeart. Of course,
it's called the Idaho Massacre, and you know, sort of

(41:57):
following the aftermath of this since sort of unpacking sort
of not the who done it, but really the why
done it? And I know that's a really unknowable thing today,
but you know, as of now, we are digging in
in a very meaningful way and.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
New information's coming out.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Right, So you know, Boddy, you just said that Brian Coburger,
who's now you know, likely never going to walk out
of prison again, that his family, who is you know,
by all accounts, very loving, and his sister's speaking out,
and again it's a tough spot. These are tough spots
to be in as human beings, and I hope everybody
is giving grace to the family on all sides, even

(42:36):
Brian Coburger. Like listen, they were very loving, well.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
And really quick. I don't think we've heard from the sister.
It's just there's a lot of online chatter and I
just want to make clear this is not substantiated in
any way. There's just a lot you know, I've been
talking about the sister for a hot minute about how
it's possible maybe she alerted the FBI, because you know,
the bowl went out, he bought the knife, he was

(43:02):
looking for sheets and knife again after the murders on
the family account. You know, there's all these things that
might have set off alarm bells with somebody in the family,
and that's why he flew out to Seattle and so.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
But again, just for people who are joined, Just for
people who are just joining us. The family bodies referring
to as the family of Brian Kolberger, who has now
pled guilty. He changed his plea after a year and
a half. He pled guilty to murdering for University of
Idaho's students Kelly Gonsalvez, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Shapin.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
I think two and a half years. Even it's even
longer than that.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Right, it's been a while, right, he's been And listen,
we were really nervous about what if he was innocent. Yes,
there was a lot of mounting information against him, and
the evidence was not looking good. You know, I'm a
little bit always worried about the media pouncing and you know,
convicting people prior to the trial. So we were really,

(43:58):
really really sweating that and making sure we were doing
justice for the victims and their families, but also to
his family because they were standing by him and he
claimed as innocent, and that is not an easy spot
to be in if you're a sibling. Again, I'm not
saying that this is exactly what happens. I do not
know this in the Coburger family, but just going there
for the imagination tour of it. If you're an older

(44:20):
sister of somebody who's been accused of something extremely horrible
who says he didn't do it, do you get an inkling?
Do you have a sixth sense? Do you have a
spidy sense? But maybe harder?

Speaker 1 (44:31):
Do you act on that?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Do you ship off authorities? And like where do you
put that in your heart? Like, my heart really is
broken for the sisters and his mother and his father.
Those are not easy spots. We don't have all that information.
So this is an assertion. This is me you know
in heads that I'm not positive about, but it is
something that I have a lot of compassion for because
you know, that is a spot that nobody wants to

(44:55):
be in either Let alone the victims' families, Let alone
to know that there are victims families that are devastated
because of something that a family member of yours committed,
and you know, like Sophie's choice, we never want to
have the.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
Ripple effects of this will.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
I mean, they go so far beyond the four victims,
their classmates, their friends, their families, as you mentioned, the
Coburgers family, their livelihoods, right, college culture. I mean people,
people change, people change schools because they could not be
there any longer. The lives of students who knew or

(45:38):
didn't know the victims were so impacted they had to
physically remove themselves and change the university.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, that's so true. You don't think about it, but
you know, we've covered this really extensively. Check out the
podcast too, please. Courtney Armstrong is the voice of it
and does an extraordinary job. And we get to make
that together and body is on it all the time.
It's like it's a deep dive. And you know, that
is something that we shouldn't take for granted that the
Idaho University campus, this this horrible night occurred off campus,

(46:07):
at off campus housing. But you know, imagine people are
murdered at the school you're in and you're a parent
sending your kids there to have this extraordinary, fun, lighthearted,
smart experience, you know, on the eve of the real world,
right like life hasn't totally started yet. And then you're
a student and a massacre occurs. How scary and mostly

(46:31):
because this you know PhD criminology student decided to take
matters into his own hand. The ripples. To your point, Courtney,
is it's hard to imagine.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'mbody
move in here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and
we are just unpacking the headlines with Brian Coberger and
we're about to get into p Diddy. If you have
a question or an opinion, give us a call at
eight eight eight thirty one Crime or use the talkbacks
on the iHeartRadio. So we know that Brian Coberger to

(47:02):
wrap that up, Brian Coberg Plood guilty last week, Courtney,
Is that right? Correct? Plood guilty? And what's the update
for Diddy?

Speaker 3 (47:11):
So Diddy, who Didty's case also is done aside from sentencing,
So catch anyone up did. He was charge in Manhattan
Federal Court with five counts of racketeering, two counts of
sex trafficking by force and fraud and coercion, and two
counts of transportation and that is for prostitution under the

(47:32):
Man Act. He has after seven weeks of a trial
and no one put up by the defense, literally not
a single person. He was found guilty of two of
the lesser charges. So each charge carries up to ten
years in prison. And now we're waiting not just for sentencing,

(47:54):
but to hear when the sentencing will happen.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
I think they're going to go soft on him.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
I really do you think soft means walk Now? There's
two sides to that, right, let's just unpack that. The
one side is were they soft on him when they
threw him in the Sprooklin Detention Center to await trial
for close to a year for what is now a
walk away by at least the big charge, which was

(48:18):
the racketeering charge that was going to potentially give him
life without parole. That's pretty intense. Now the charges that
he has been found guilty on have a potential sentencing
of what twenty It's never going to happen ten years each.
If you stack those back to back in the worst
case scenario, all things Diddy, that's a twenty year sentence.

(48:39):
Our inside sourcing, which nobody's a psychic, so take this
with the spirit it's intended. Inside sourcing would suggest he's
probably going to look at ten to fourteen months. There's
also probably some time served. If you're Diddy, it's a win,
it's a big win. Actually, you didn't get to go
home on bail because you know, you do have a

(48:59):
history violence, and you're very well connected and have the money.
To Courtney's point earlier in the show, to you know
you have the money to do all kinds of things.
I guess that's the takeaway. Void is money talk. Oh man,
If you're accused and you can't afford a good lawyer,
you're screwed.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Or ten in a thousand lawyers, ten at a cost
of over one hundred thousand dollars. Again, it's his money,
but a day over. That was the estimate. But think
how big this case was. It was back in March
of twenty twenty four, Homeland Security rated his homes in
Los Angeles, Miami, and New York. He was arrested in Manhattan,

(49:37):
and I mean, this was a huge undertaking by the
federal government. And I think you're probably right, Stephanie about
the sentencing, but I hold out hope that the judge
will go long on the sentencing. I mean, he a
didn't seem to be in a hurry to give the
defense what they wanted, which was sentencing hearing tomorrow. He

(49:57):
b used the defense's own verse gage against them, saying, listen,
you acknowledged he's a violent guy. Well we're gonna go
ahead and keep him where he is for now and
not let him go home.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Good point. I don't know that's a good point. That's
a very good point.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
And also there was a victim statement that in the
eleventh hour, when we were waiting to find out if
Diddy was in fact going to be released on bail
that night, yep, he would have been home in bed
before the weekend. Cassie Ventura and one of the other
victims also wrote a very I guess, impactful letter to
the judge basically saying, I am now at risk, and

(50:33):
by the way, aren't they ever anybody who came up?

Speaker 1 (50:36):
And I think they're still at risk even with him
of course, yes he is. And now there's all this nonsense.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
I shouldn't say nonsense because it's just in my opinion,
and I know I'm not alone in the world. But
I see a lot of women clapping back of like
these girls had to come in, and I'm like, what
plan we on or anybody deserves to get beaten up
like that.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
I don't understand it. I know that's how it was convicted. Yeah,
I know.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
It's because there's loop that I can't get out of.
I feel like that judge is going but now I'm
back in it.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
It just makes me crazy. This is not okay. You
detox for the whole weekend on all this, and now
you're raged up again.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Right, I feel enraged again. I'm back in to tell
me and coaches, I'm back in, Diddy.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
What's your thought on the judge? Body? I just listen.
The judge is going to do whatever the law provides.
But I just can't escape the feeling that it's like
without the Rico charge, all this is just like trumped
up charges, like it's just low no, even though judge
found him guilty, I just feel that I don't know.
I'm very jaded right now. Okay, about about how you

(51:39):
know justice is moving? Okay, we got a plea deal
in Coburger and now this Diddy no charge charge. We're
talking all things in cells. What a scary word. So
in cells.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Elliott Rogers, a famous in cell in Santa Barbara, Brian Coburger,
although not a proclaimed in cell member, there's certainly some
crossover that's been incredibly debated and investigated, which we intend
on doing more of body. This is something very close
to your heart, all of ours. Frankly, can you, in
its most basic way, describe for us what an in

(52:13):
cell actually is.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
It's such a complicated it's such a complicated subculture and
it is hard to like kind of condense it down
to like this little, short, cute little paragraph. But I'm
gonna do literally the best I can. You've probably heard
this term in cell tossed around online, but what does
it actually mean. It stands for in voluntarily celibate, and
it describes people, usually men. There are female in cells

(52:38):
are called fem cells, But for the purposes of this discussion,
we're just going to be talking about the men, because
we're talking about in cell specifically, and these men and
they're usually young I would say, in their twenties, and
they start this ideology in their teens. But it's usually
men who feel like they can't get into romantic or
sexual relationships no matter how hard they try. The term
actually started out in the nineteen nineties as kind of

(52:59):
like a poor group created by a woman of all things,
try and help others who felt lonely and isolated. Like
it started out really kind of like uh wholesome, yeah,
you know, but over time, especially because of the Internet,
you know, the meaning shifted. Well. Today, when people talk
about in cells, they're usually referring to a specific online
community that's taken on a much darker tone. Now, these

(53:20):
modern in cell groups often gather on like forums, like reddits,
four chan and like private you know, abultant.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Words kind of not why do I find the dark
web that I don't know two words in the language
right now? I'm like, I sound archaic as I say
that I recognize, but like, ooh, the dark web, Like
what's that?

Speaker 1 (53:41):
You know, what's crazy stuff is that these you know,
these conversations are totally outlandish, and but they're they're emboldened
enough that they don't have to use dark web. Bit
dark web, you know technology to have these discussions. They're
having these discussions on the open Internet.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Right, and they're a little nameless and faceless, so they
can let a rip without any they can cut a refect.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yeah. So a lot of the conversations in these forums
are filled with like rage and anger, especially towards women
that they see attractive, socially successful, you know that even men.
So the men are referred to as chads and the
women are referred to as stacy's. And these are the
men and women that are successful in life. They're dating,

(54:20):
they're having sexual intercourse with people like picture Barbie and Ken. Yes,
that's that's the prototype in some ways, right of the
chads and the staceis yes. And they consider themselves like
the nice guy, you know, like when you think of
an insult, think of somebody that thinks of themselves as
nice and like but almost entitled to women, right and.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Mom boy air quotes, air quotes, air quotes, but like
maybe the momage boy in the basement on the online
chat group while Mom's making muffins and is like, I
don't know why he won't get a job.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Right, So the confident guys who get you know, the
Stacey's are the chads. And in many of these communities,
they believe that they're destined to be alone forever because
of how they look, and they often blame society, women
or genetics. And it's a really bleak, you know, self
enforcing worldview because they just you know, they're self sustaining,
because they're just talking amongst each other and building themselves up.

(55:12):
And it's important to know that not every inseel is
going to turn out to be violent, all right. Not
everyone is going to take out this rage on women
from not loving them on other on women. Not everyone's
going to do this. But there are some interesting studies
coming out about who in cels are. The average age
is the mid twenties, around twenty six years old. They

(55:32):
usually live with their parents or their grandparents. Twenty five
percent do live alone. Only four percent of them are
are employed full time.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Wow, yeah, that's four no job, Seventy five percent living
with mom and dad or grandparents. And by the way,
post COVID again, I'm saying to be judging to learn
post COVID, everybody was like locked in their basements. If
you were already experiencing some level of loneliness or you
were feeling disenfranchised. Now add you know, a year and

(56:03):
a half, two years of isolation to the you know equation,
there's an uptick.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
And I think it's obvious why. Yeah, when when COVID happened,
it was like kind of like the pressure cooker. It
really kind of like expanded this movement. And it's interesting,
contrary to like a lot of stereotypes too, most lean
slightly left. This isn't like a right wing ideology of
any kind. It's it leans a little left. Fifty eight
percent of them are white, forty two percent of people

(56:29):
of color. Seventy three percent report moderate to severe depression, which.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Like that's the whole country to that, you know again
post COVID, especially you know, mental health, big ticket item.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
Yeah, it's very Yeah that so that stat is not
surprising you because really it is. I mean that the
deepest loneliness I'd have to imagine and having that mirrored back.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
And they blame it on women, Yes, for women not
wanting them. You know, they're not socially attractive, or they're
awkward in some way, or you know, or there's excuse
after excuse after excuse, and so they feel, you know,
that women are responsible for their depression and their loneliness,
and that turns that can turn into rage, which can

(57:14):
turn violent. And we're gonna get right into you know,
one more thing too. Forty eight percent scored at the
highest level on loneliness scales at arica alert dot org,
which is interesting, Wow, my intent loneliness scale.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
I think the Brian Coburger case, the Idaho student murders,
you know, please watch on Peacock. I think it's a
real look at loneliness and it's real case scenario. You know,
you know that he was an odd guy with very
little social interaction and friends. Not that that justifies it, obviously,
but if we're trying to unpack how to prevent these
types of isolated killers on the on the loose or

(57:54):
in the making, it's important stuff that we talk about.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
It's vitally important. This is Truecram's Night on iHeartRadio. I'm
Courtney Armstrong here as always with Body Moven and Stephanie Leidecker.
We're talking about in cells and we want to know
your thoughts. So please give us a call. We're at
eighty eight three one Crime or you can hit us
on the talkbacks. It's on the iHeartRadio app. You just
go there, You click on the red microphone in the

(58:18):
upper right hand corner, leave a message, and you're.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
On the show.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
So body earlier you mentioned and it is true, not remotely.
Every in cell or a person who subscribes to those
beliefs is violent. But I know we're going to get
to Elliott Rodgers in one second. Who does is the
epitome of the worst that someone could do in this situation.
But this was many years ago, and Stephanie and I
we were doing a ton of research on in cells.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
And it really down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
We were trying to make a TV show about it
at the time time and frankly, the feedback was it
was too dark.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Yeah, oh really yeah. At the time we were a
little ahead of this.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
We learned in real time and we were actually.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Really down the path.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Yes, but there was an I will try and circle
back and remember this for later this week. But people
were learned. People were saying, literally, this is the hate
group to watch next, the potentially most dangerous pre COVID.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
This was pre COVID.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
This was like my memories, a little muddy COVID my memories,
Why don't know?

Speaker 1 (59:20):
It was actually early stages of COVID. Yeah, we will.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
Yeah, in any case, absolutely a group to watch for
potential violence.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Oh absolutely.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
And body, if you want to tell us about Elliott Rogers, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
So Elliott Rogers he was a British American mass murderer
who is known for killing six people and injuring fourteen
others during the twenty fourteen Iila Vista killings. The murders
he committed his suicide and his manifesto, of course, manifesto,
of course, I'm immediately interested have been cited as an
early influence into the inceell In manuscript, you know, culture subculture,

(59:58):
and you know, his his manifesto was like one hundred
and thirty seven pages. It was titled My Twisted World,
The Story of Elliott Rogers. And I wrote like this
big long document that it gave to the researchers this
morning when we were talking about doing this, and I
was reading through it again because I had, you know,
written it so long ago, and I was just remembering
everything that he did. And you know, we only have

(01:00:20):
a few minutes left, but this guy did so much,
and I don't know that we're going to be able
to unpack all of it. So it's something that I'd
like to continue if we could.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Yeah, no, we have, Like I think this should be
our next big deep dive.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Yeah, it might be so. In the weeks leading up
to this happened back in twenty fourteen, he wrote a
manifesto after he you know, gunned down these women outside
of a sorority house. He had planned on breaking in,
and you know, he didn't, and he killed his two roommates,
which by the way, is a whole nother story. But
he killed his two roommates, then drove over to the

(01:00:53):
sorority house and he was going to take his revenge
out on these beautiful sorority girls, which again, you know
Cooke Ryan Coberger also did, right. So that's just kind
of a paralone admission by his own admission. Yes, important
to note Elliott believed that he was going to purify
the world and it's necessary to remove love and sex
from the human existence. In fact, prior to him doing this,

(01:01:15):
he would often attack couples that were, you know, maybe
on the beach holding hands or in their car, maybe
making out very very sketchy stuff, and he would like
throw coffee at them. He would just if you were
a woman and a man in love and showing it publicly,
he would it would just anger him to the point
where he would need to toss things at you enrage in

(01:01:36):
race and like absolutely enraged. He stated women should not
be given any rights and that their wickedness needed to
be contained to avoid the risk of humanity falling into degeneracy.
Elliott said women's refusal to accept him was a declaration
of war, and he hoped his attacks would reshape humanity
like it's but here's the thing, it kind of did

(01:01:56):
because in cells now there was a guy in Canada
and his name escapes me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Oh yeah, what is his name? I know who you're
referring to too. We'll come back to it, but I'm
back to know what you mean.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
But he cited Saint Elliott Rogers as his as his
motivation for carrying out the attacks and killed I think
he killed half a dozen or more people in Canada
in an in cell attack.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
So Elliott is really kind of the grounding point for
in cells. They refer to him as as Saint Elliott
Roger and when they say they're going to attack women,
they say they're going to er her.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
He is absolutely revered you're exactly right, body, I mean,
he is on candles, he is on right. It's insane.
And I think the Toronto it was a van attack
in twenty eighteen. Ye is that what you're referring to?

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Exactly Courtney, And yes, my goodness, this is a crazy topic.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
But coming up next, there's a little bit of good news.
Texas changed a law that prevents that was preventing victims
of sexual violence from getting justice. So that has now
been changed. We're going to get back into Brian Coberger
and Elliott Rodgers parallels. Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time, and we're doing a very
deep unpack about in cells. If you haven't heard this
word before, it's spelt I n C E l S
and it's it's kind of a scary catchphrase. And you'll
start to hear more about it. Because, first of all,
there is that scripted series it's on Netflix right it

(01:03:44):
is called Adolescence, And we just put out The Idaho
Student Murders, which is based on these recent developments of
the tragedy in Idaho and for college students who were
slaughtered by Brian Coberg. We can say that officially since
he has changed his plea to guilty after two and

(01:04:04):
a half years of saying he was not. And there's
always been this like low key chatter since we started
in this case. We also make the podcast The Idaho
Massacre that he was an in cell, and frankly, we
were really down this path and we were never able
to substantiate it despite the very obvious underpinnings of what
an inceel is. And to this day Brian Coberger hasn't

(01:04:27):
come out and said he was an in cell, but
because of his recent admission of guilt, we all really
think it's important that we start unpacking this so body.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
What is the basics of an inceul So an inceell
stands for our involuntary celibate, and they basically have never
had relations with the opposite sex, the sex that they're
attracted to, and they blame women for that. They blame
the Staceys of the world, which they call these unattainable women,

(01:04:57):
for not showing them the attention. They're kind, they're generous,
they're special, just like these chads, who by the way,
are successful, attractive men that the women are attracted to there.
They blame their loneliness on women, and some are taking
this rage out in extreme and violent ways. And it's
possible that Brian Coberger might may have been an insuel.

(01:05:21):
And you know, we've been talking about this for a while, right,
but you know we didn't. We've always been like, you knows,
he's not being tried for being an inceel. He's being
tried for murderer. But now that he's you know, admitted
to this, I think it's safe to say that he's
not going to really care so much if he's being
called an insuel. He's being called a murderer, you know,
like that's you know, he is a murderer. He is

(01:05:42):
a murderer. Right, So you know, Brian Coberger has never
said he's an in cell, but people around him have
alluded to. You know, I here's one thing I want
to say real quick. I kind of wish Bill Thompson
was a young, attractive women. And the reason I say
that is if Bill Thompson while he was up there

(01:06:02):
reading the plea, you know, like what Brian Coberger did
that day, he did as Bill Thompson is a prosecutor,
and he kind of looks like a tall thinner Santa Claus. Right,
But if he was a young, beautiful prosecutor, I can't
help but think that Brian Coberger, if Bill Thompson had
gotten something wrong in the recount of what happened that night,

(01:06:24):
Brian Cogberger would have made facial expressions like rolling his
eyes at her. There would have been some indication. Because
the hostility that these in cels have against beautiful women,
especially successful ones, I think it would seepot of his pores.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
It's so interesting that you say that about Brian Coburger
because frankly, he was raised by older sisters and a
lovely mother by all accounts, and he had a sister
who was a therapist and another sister who was used
to be an actress who were fired from their jobs.
So like, this is a guy who was raised in
many ways by women. On its nose, right, we're not
making any assertions here, you would think he would have

(01:07:01):
more respect for women.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
So many stories of even in your documentary, the young
woman student who didn't want to shore face, you know,
she was saying that he had an aura about him.
I'm sus saying I'm being you know, I'm paraphrasing. No,
it's but he had an aura about him, and you know,
the W s U disciplinary was coming down on him

(01:07:24):
for these things. I mean, this is a document women.
He did not like women. He was that guy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
He didn't like popular women also, so I guess that's
the in cel DNA, right, It's right, it's Barbie, it's
the girls. And again we're not making this assertion, but
if you look at the Idaho victim, all gorgeous, you're
the most beautiful, happy in love even you know Zanna
and Ethan. Ethan was the most handsome man and beloved,
and you know, they were all successful. And you know,

(01:07:53):
if you're if your aunt I that and you're you know,
a nerdy guy living in your mama's basement who is
not feeling confident in their own skin, this becomes potentially
a little bit of a rage quest. I think we
actually have a call a talkback right now, let's jump
to that.

Speaker 6 (01:08:08):
I think that one of the appeals of in cell
culture and red pilling in general for people is that
right now, with the Internet, there's such a focus on
terminology and checking boxes to be a good person, and
a lot of people feel really exhausted by that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
So when someone gives them an.

Speaker 6 (01:08:23):
Option for here's how to be the best person you
can be and it doesn't feel like so much work,
they're really drawn to that because they can tell that
something's wrong in their life, that things aren't flicking, that
their mental health is bad, and in cell culture tells
them they can just relax.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
I'm so happy to hear this conversation, and thank you
for sending that talk back, because it's a really interesting perspective,
and perspective is very powerful. I think the word fatigue
and tired of not knowing where you fit in in
this world is sort of at its core. What are
the DNA issues of in cells?

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Like, you're feeling unsupported, You're feeling unlike by women of
the opposite sex if you're a guy, and rather than
getting out and meeting people, you're locked in a basement
on the web and surrounding yourself in conversations with other
like minded unpopular and I say this in air quotes
unpopular people.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Yeah, and she mentioned a term red pilling, and that's
a red pilling means so that's a really yes in fact,
so it's an important term to know if you're talking
about in cells. It's a metaphor and it's borrowed from
the matrix, and it represents accepting the uncomfortable truth. You
take the red pill for the truth or the blue pill,
and you stay in a state of ignorance. All right,

(01:09:40):
If you take the red pill, it's basically your awakening
to the truth. The you're awakening to the truth about
social dynamics, particularly regarding sex and relationships. So when in
Cells say red pilling, they're talking about how they awoke
to the uncomfortable truth that they are not desirable and
they are angry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
And by the way, I guess this kind of speaks
to the idea of, hey, the nice guys don't win
in the end. It's like, you know, women like bad
boys and muscleheads, and like you can be a sweet, nice,
loving guy who has you know, the best of intentions,
but because they're not manly enough or the girls overlook
them because they're just too nice.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
And I think that's a valid feeling there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Yeah, I was going to say nice guys should finish last,
and I hope that or shouldn't. Well, I guess if
you're an insult and a nice guy if they don't
really go hand in hand. That's sort of contradictory, right,
But I see the point, the red pilling.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Of it all. Nice guys. This world could use some
nice men, It really could. That's a fact. You're listening
to Crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Stephanie Leideker and Body Moven
and we are talking about in cels. We want to
hear your thoughts. We're at eighty eight three one Crime
or Always. You can hit us on the talkbacks on
the iHeartRadio app. So we're talking about, you know, these
feelings that are evoked by going on the internet and
kind of in being comfortable I think was the word

(01:11:05):
that the woman used, are easier and watching earlier today
Elliott Rogers.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Video Ellie Rod Yeah, yeah, Elliott Rogers. Jow remindable, remind
people what the video is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
So Elliott Rogers is self proclaimed in cell and this
happened in twenty fourteen. He went on a murderous rampage
and ended up killing himself and he targeted a sorority
and the absolute rage. And he had done a video.
He's sitting in his car and he it's about seven

(01:11:40):
minutes long and He talks about the fact that basically
life is so unfair to him. He says, I forget
if he was twenty one or twenty two, and he says,
I have never had sex. It's completely unfair. People are
out there having a good time. Nobody wants to include me.
They are wrong and they will suffer. And throughout this

(01:12:04):
he also is laughing. It really struck me at certain points,
he laughs maniacally. I mean it's like an actual villain,
like a cartoon of a villain.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Almost. It's very forced though, right, like almost fake, like
practiced once or twice repost it, you know, he re recorded,
you know how we you know, people are like, I
didn't get that quite right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
It doesn't sound like that was like we should post
that on our website, by the way, just in case
you want to play along, or you could very easily
find it online.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Yeah, it's on YouTube. It's all the right place, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
Back to the talk back, you know, I could see
a quote a comfort of knowing, Okay, I'm at least
not alone. I feel alone, but hey, there's like minded people,
so maybe I'm not entirely alone, even if women won't
pay attention to me, right you know, it's so complicated.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
So going back to Coburger quickly. You know, when he
was teaching in the in the classes he taught, there
were a lot of problems we were talking about, like
he was under he got fired right for his behavior,
and his behavior was directed at women. Yeah, walls were
crazy closing in right. So one time, according to the
New York Post, one time he followed a female student

(01:13:15):
out to the door to her car, and other women
complained he was discriminating against them, grading them worse than
the men, and so much so that WSU administration noticed
and the school began to issue him warnings about his
teaching position, which was funding his graduate program. That's right.
So that's when it all be you know, kind of
started crumpling for him. And then one of his classmates,

(01:13:37):
Ben Roberts. Now Ben Roberts has been on I think
like either a twenty twenty or a dateline, because I
remember watching him say this one evening, Ben Roberts, he
was a classmate, reluctantly accepted a ride from Coburger. Okay,
now I'm reading directly from the post. He told Roberts
in a conversation that he that went on for hours
that women belonged in the kitchen and not the bedroom

(01:13:58):
and certainly not the classroom. Then he roberts they were easy.
He could walk into any social gathering and have any
of them he wanted sexually, which is interesting if he's
an insul, because usually in Cells don't think they could.
Which this is why it gives me pause to call
him an insult directly, because he has these you know
moments where he's like, oh, I could have anyone that
I wanted, but.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
He was talking to another man. That's true, you know,
man being Machi Smo. Maybe he was sort of asserting
his manliness and this was his stick, whether he really
believed it or not.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
And it goes back to body when you mentioned at
the top of the show the ven diagram of Andrew
Tate and in Cells.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
That's true. It could be something like that where he
shares a lot of the ideology like Andrew Tate, but
isn't necessarily an insul himself. That's that's incredibly so true.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
We're going to continue talking about in Cells throughout the week,
and it's going to be like the start of an
ongoing conversation and an unpack. Also, I've been advised that
I have to watch The Matrix before tomorrow, the movie
with Keanu Reeves. If you haven't watched it, apparently we
are like.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
It is not okay. So I'm for one. I'm gonna
dip in.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
I know I have had to have watched this, and
I love Cana Reeves, so it's on my watch list.
Courtney's below Deck will take aside to below Deck too.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
Come on, I listen.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
It's it's already very late and we all have jobs
in the days, so but it's on the list. So
the Matrix will got much watch. I think everybody we
should all watch it so we can understand better.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
Red Pilling, I can't believe I haven't watched it either.
It's like saying out loud, I've never seen Jaws?

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
How have you not seen Jows? How are we friends?
I know added to the list.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I feel like I secretly understand The Matrix and I've
seen enough.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
I thank you to kind of give you the stick.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
But I haven't really watched it in its entirety, so
that won't happen past tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
And you know what else.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
The next week, we go Forensics with Joseph Scott Morgan
unpacking the forensics and the Idaho massacre and the Idaho
student murders.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
Thank you for watching on.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Peacock and we're going to be deep doing a deeper
dive into Elliott Rodgers. Yeah, the infamous face man or
frontman of in Cells.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
I was going to.

Speaker 3 (01:16:09):
Say one bit that we mentioned earlier, a tiny glimmer
of hope exists, and Texas has officially closed a loophole
this year that made it very hard to impossible for
victims of sexual assault to actually prosecute people. But that
loophole has been closed. It's called the Summer Willis Act,

(01:16:33):
which is an unbelievably brave and powerful woman who without
exaggeration crawled miles to go to the Federal building and
say this should be listened to and attention needs to
be paid to this issue. And so consent has now
been redefined and ensures that a person who is incapacitated

(01:16:55):
by alcohol or any substance, they cannot legally consent even
if they volunt taroly consumed it or we're drugged unknowingly.
So previously there was a gap that if someone willingly
grabbed themselves a beer, it would go unpunished. So that's
a big loophole. I'm glad it's closed. Big ups to summer,
Willis for drawing attention to this.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
Yeah, high five to summer. Good for Texas. And speaking
of Texas, there's this flood. Our hearts are broken. Eighty
two eight. The death toll has just risen to eighty two.
I just looked it up a second ago to make
sure I had the right amount. You know that that
camp mystic and all those children, and these are little babies,
these are children.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
Little girl, Yeah nuggets, And for anyone who's still searching
for their loved ones, we're wishing a happier day tomorrow.
And I think anybody listening right now if we could
all just quickly close our eyes and send hearts and
prayers and love they need it. Yeah to crime tonight.
I'm sorry to end it on a sad note, but
it's important stuff. And we will be back tomorrow and

(01:17:57):
the start of a new week, So God willing easier
days ahead. This is true crime tonight, true crime all
the time. Please stay safe and we will see you tomorrow.