Esteemed body language expert Susan Constantine joins us to analyze Bryan Kohberger and Karen Read. A suspect in the alleged Tennessee quadruple homicide has been arrested; Luigi Mangione, Sean “Diddy” Combs, and a controversial execution are back in the headlines. Plus, it’s Talkback Tuesday. Tune in for all the details.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, it is August fifth.
I'm Courtney Armstrong and co host Stephanie Leidecker, who heads
up Katie Studios. She is out this evening, but I
am lucky enough to be here as always with crime
analyst and star of Netflix's Emmy winning Donut with Cats,
(00:43):
Body Move and herself. Guess what we have tonight? We
got a stacked night of Headlive.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
It wouldn't be True Crime tonight if we didn't have
a stacked night.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Of Heavy, it would not listen. We've got body language experts,
Susan Constantine. She'll be joining us. She's going to be
giving insights into Brian Coberger, Karen Reid, and honestly, if
you guys want to ask her any questions eight A
eight three one crime. She's someone we've been dying to
talk to for a while. Also, we are going to
(01:12):
be breaking down there's latest headlines on Shanda de Comb's
Luigi Mangio and the Epstein Case and favorite day of
the week it is talk back Tuesday. We cannot wait
to get into all of these. Sam and Adam in
the control room. They have been busy, busy bees getting
these all compiled for us. And yeah, it ranges from
(01:33):
topics and there's still plenty of time if you want
to leave a talk back or give us a call
again eight eight eight to three to one Crime. We're
here for the next two hours and we are going
to go to a talkback right now. Let's do it.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Hello this Gigi and I love your podcast.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I'm currently walking if I've found out of breath anyway,
I hear you. I recently watched Deadly American Marriage. Thought
it was a really well done documentary. It blows my mind.
She basically is still claiming her innocence. But what do
you think about her dad, mister FBI, and the fact
that he was involved. Why do you think he thought
that he could get away with it just because of
(02:13):
his background?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Well, I think he thought he could get away with
it because he did right. Yeah, I mean listen, I
think I feel pretty safe in saying that I believe
those children, and I believe that those you know, Molly
told those children to lie, and there's only run reason
to do that, and that's a cover of tracks, right,
So I'm just gonna go with that. I feel like
(02:36):
the first you know, stint in jail was probably correct.
They probably should have stayed there. And I think that
the dad, you know, I think that was absolutely by design.
He's credible, right, former REFREEI jan he wouldn't do anything wrong,
would he, right, But he's still a dad. He would
do anything for his daughter. So I think it's hubris,
(02:57):
it's arrogance. A lot of people in those positions, rightfully,
so are fairly arrogant, rightfully, so you know, they don't
get to be those in those positions for being dummies,
right And you have.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
To be confident, confident, you know all of the above.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah, So I think I think it's a combination of
hubris and the fact that he knew he'd get away
with it and he did.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, he was funny. He was funny to me when
we had the prosecutor on last night, who was so fantastic.
You know, my burning question was about the dad and
he lied absolutely, Hold on, what did he have he
had a dinner. Well, yeah, but he had an uncomfortable
relationship with the truth that there was yess saying instead
(03:43):
of a liar. But he said, oh, you know, we
just decided to go down there and just decided to
bring the little league back. But I don't know. I
still maintain Dad didn't know this was going to go down.
I agree with that too. I do think if you
see someone attack provoked or not. You know, I do
think that the wife, Mollie, I do think that she
(04:06):
evoked a big reaction and created a ruckus.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You know, I mean, any dad is going to step
in at that at that moment, right. I do think
that he lied though about his reaction. I think it
was clearly overboard. He didn't hit him over the head
just one time. I mean it was several. All those
indentations in the walls of the bat, but you know
that's not one swing, and the indentation is is near
(04:31):
the floor, that's hitting somebody when right on the floor.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Right literally, the you know, the saying hitting someone when
they're down right, And the fact that neither of them
had any neither the Dad or Molly had any marks
on them except for that one that Molly had on
her neck barely, but it was there. It was barely visible.
And in the documentary it was brought up that it
(04:56):
could have you know, if allegedly what she's saying was true,
she was being choked right, that it could have been
either the victim's finger mark or.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Her own, like prying it off right, prying her correct.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, that's correct. So yeah, the dad, I think he thought, listen,
we're gonna stay cool, we're going to stay calm, We're
going to stick exactly to the script. And I think
he was probably very likely the mastermind of that, and
that also would add to why the victim's body was cold.
(05:29):
The ParaMed they waited a while. They even the paramedics
that said, hey, what time did they say this guy
went down? I think that's also when dad got the
wife to say that she stayed downstairs, never came up
and was asleep, because any human reaction would be to
have come upstairs. So I'm going to guess she probably
(05:50):
came up. Grandma was screaming that no one touched on
to doc. I don't know what do you think, Boddy,
do you think that she stayed down I.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Think it is possible that she stayed down there, I do.
I mean in the basement is far away from the
second floor. It's not like right above her. It's not
you know what I mean, like, it is possible. And listen,
I'm of age now and my hearing ain't that I think.
Ain't that great? You know, in my fifties now, Oh
my gosh, and you know it's my hearing just isn't
(06:20):
that great? So I do think it is possible that
mom did stay downstairs.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, So anyway, those are our thoughts. Great question, because
good question. It's hard to answer. That's a hard question
to answer. So thank you for the talk back. It's
really great.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
But I've got some headlines that we should probably get into.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So guess what.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
A week's long manhunt comes to an end. They caught him,
Austin Drummond, the Tennessee killer.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
He thank goodness.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So he is the man accused of killing four members
of the same family and left the baby in that
driveway of the stranger's home. We've been talking about this.
You all know, hopefully you know all about it, but
if you don't, he is response. Well, they're saying he's
responsible for the death of four individuals that were found
in an infant discovered abandoned in a front yard in
(07:09):
Dyer County, Tennessee. Along with Austin Drummond, four other individuals
have been apprehended in relation to these crime, although no
motive has been made public yet. So Austin Drummond a
little bit of background. He was in prison for a
really long time, like thirteen fourteen years, kind of like
his his entire adult life basically, because he went in
(07:32):
when he was seventeen, so he's been there. He's a
member of the Vice Lords and I do a little
bit of research on them today and they're known for
drug trafficking mainly, and that might come into play here.
We don't know, you know, what the situation is, and
it would be really unfair of me to speculate at
this point, but you know, it might be related to.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
The Vice Lords.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
His accomplices that have been arrested, the four others, so
five people in total had been arrested. They might be
members of this Vice Lord and he's you know, giving
the marching orders. We really just don't know. So he
was captured today by US Marshals after a construction crew
spotted him darting into the woods and I watched the
video today.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Did you see the video?
Speaker 5 (08:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I did not, and he yes.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
This construction worker that found him is so sweet. The
he was just very humble. He's like, well, I just
saw him, you know, running around, and so I called
the police and they came and they were here before
I hung up, and they were like, oh, you're a hero,
and he was like no, no, no, the police are
the heroes. He was just very, very humble, very sweet video.
So God bless him and we're so proud of him.
(08:44):
His name is Ricardo Contreras, and he helped bring an
end to this man hunt after reporting the sighting of
Austin Robert Rummond.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Good for you, good job for you. Yes, we're very
proud of you.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
So yeah, so he's been caught, and you know, now
people are kind of digging into him, right, people are
kind of digging into who is Austin Drummond. And I
think yesterday we had mentioned that his prison cell, he
had pizzas, he had potato chips, he had a stocked
shelf of non perishable items.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
He had so Rock vodka. There was this idea. So
I didn't see the video you were talking about, but
I did see some Facebook photos and it was of
drum And it was a couple of months before he
was released. He looked cozy. Oh it was TV streaming alcohol,
video games and he post pizza pizza and he wrote,
(09:37):
Sarraq almost home living it up till I get there
right like, I'll take a sirac and some piece.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
You see the surveillance video of okay, So they initially
saw him last night while we were on the air,
so we didn't get to report on it, but they
had a video of him, like on home surveillance, like
walking around.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Did you see this video? No, I missed that one
as well.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
He's literally walking around with a rifle, just hanging out,
and he's dressed in all camouflage. He's got a backpack
on and his rifle, this long rifle, scary looking rifle,
just walking around yet out last night. Yeah, I'll send
it to you. I'll text it to you. That is creepy, scary.
This guy's just worrying.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah. You know, this guy Drummond with his four accomplices.
He reminds me a little bit of that dopey dentist
in terms of embroiling all these people right after the
fact of the crime or during you know, or during
and or during the commission.
Speaker 6 (10:34):
Well.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
The big difference though, is that with a dope dentist,
he couldn't get anybody to work with him. But this
Austin guy, apparently he roped four others in with him,
which makes me think he has some kind of power
over them in some way, right, like some sort of
power dynamic that we don't know about yet. I'm sure
we're going to learn, but we just don't know about
it yet. So his possession of all these contraband in
(10:58):
the prison right because he had a phone, right, he's
making taking pictures of himself. He had pizza delivered. It's
in the takeout box.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
That is the rock. The vodka that is wild.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
It points to a lot of systemic failures and security,
don't you.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Write I was gonna say that's contraband? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Anyway, I mean, am I naive? I mean I listen.
I see prison videos on TikTok, and I see them
making dance videos in their cells and whatnot and showing
some of the things. And I guess I always thought
that was staged, but apparently it's not. It's very real.
I always thought it was staged.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I guess. So listen, I have one other This is
a really quick update, yes, and this is about the manhunt,
the one that is not yet closed. I'm so happy
that the Drummond one is. But this is the manhunt
that's actually intensifying, and it's for the army veteran who's
accused of fatally shooting those four people at the bar
(11:54):
in Montana. So listen, people are still looking for Michael
Paul Brand, so you should be on the lookout for him.
He's a former soldier. He's accused of fatally shooting four
people at the Owl Bar in Anaconda, which is a
small southwestern Montana town, and he was seen fleeing the scene.
(12:15):
He was bare foot, he was shirtless, and is now
believed to be armed and carrying survival gear stolen from
a second vehicle.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Oh so he broke into a car and stole survival gear.
So somebody just has survival gear in their car. How
lucky for him.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
How lucky for him, or he stole it and put
it in a car for himself. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, it's unfolding, So we'll keep you up to date.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
We have a very special guest on the show today
that it was actually inspired by a talkback. Here to
help us break down what we can learn from body
language in some major cases is Susan Constantine. She's a
leading authority in human behavior and deception detection. She's the
president of the Human Behavior Lab, has consulted on high
profile cases like Michael Jackson and Elizabeth Holmes, and has
(13:15):
trained law enforcement in legal teams across the country. She's
one of the most respected experts in her field. Welcome, Susan.
We're so glad to have you.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
Thank you for having me on Courtney.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
What case should we talk about with Susan first, because
we have no time to waste.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, Susan, we got a lot of cases to cover
with you that we want to so we'd love to
start with Brian Coberger and for just to catch anyone
up who hasn't been awake for the past while. Brian
Coberger he's a former criminal justice graduate student and he
pled guilty just last month to the murders of fatally
(13:53):
stabbing four University of Idaho's students to death, Kaylee Gonsalvez,
Madison Mogan, Xana and Ethan Chapin. Has happened in their
off campus rental home in Moscow, Idaho, and he is
in prison with four consecutive life sentences without parole, and
let him stay there. So, Susan, I understand that you
(14:16):
were part of a task force that helped law enforcement
to analyze his behavior early on. Is that right?
Speaker 7 (14:22):
Well, they've got that wrong. I thought the humor they
are mentioning the BTK. So I'm on the task force
for the BTK killer. But I analyzed buying pots body
language for all of the major networks, including port TV.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Great, what can you tell us? What can you tell
us about that?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Well?
Speaker 7 (14:41):
I think one thing that most people are so curious
about is his overall inner I analyzed him from the
very beginning when he was being pulled over multiple times
except those driving on the highway. It's really intense, prolonged,
you know, facial affect, that stare unblinking, that kind of
(15:04):
predatory gaze. It was really off putting to most people.
Then trying to figure out what's going on here. And
so what I share with people is that we have
to understand a little bit about his background too, right,
so we know that he has some form of aspergers.
As writers generally have a difficult time emoting and also
(15:24):
reading emotions. So let's kind of shelf that to the side. Also,
he has a form of paranoia. That's where you're do
you see where his eyes are more fixated. They're very open,
they don't blink very much, and so that in a
sense can be part of the predatory gaze because they're
highly concentrating. The lack of facial affect is that detachment,
(15:48):
that emotional detachment. He doesn't show the normal morphine of real,
you know, true emotions. He's got this very flax still
on expression, this cold, icy appearance, which is what we
can we look at for people that are more like
sociopaths and psychopaths, and he meets all of the criteria.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And then some like all of them, Yeah, all of them.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So, Susan, I don't know if you extended sort of
your analysis to the father in the car and what
Susan's referring to is that infamous cross country drive that
Brian Koberger took with his father from Washington State to
Pennsylvania and they were pulled over twice, as Susan mentioned,
(16:37):
did you look at the father's reaction. If so, did
you have any takeaways from him?
Speaker 7 (16:43):
Sure. I mean when we're looking at the completely different right,
I mean he's leaning his head back. You see his
kind of mouth open up in surprise, like why are
you you know, why are you pulling this over? He
has a little bit of kind of an abnormal affect
of south so that you know, it doesn't the apple
doesn't fall far from the tree, but he doesn't show
(17:04):
this really coldness. What's interesting is that he immediately brought
up about the murders that had happened, and he had
said that there were some college students that were shot,
and then Brian Coburger jumps in and goes, well, you
don't know that, so he corrected his father. But when
we see Brian Kolberger in that situation another time when
(17:26):
he was pulled over himself by a female police officer,
and he's always so quick to correct right, to reprimand
to test the waters, and he's always got to be
the smartest one in the room. So I thought that
was really interesting that he leaned forward while his father
(17:47):
was trying to answer the police officer when they're pulled over.
But again he had that very stiff, frozen expression, eyes
wide open, no affect. And then when he said, you
don't know that that was a clue. Why would he
say that if you didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
This is true crime.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm body Moven and I'm here with
Courtney Armstrong and body language expert Susan Constantine. We're talking
about what we can learn from body language of different
alleged convicted killers and what we want to hear from you.
Give us a call at eighty eight thirty one crime
or hit us on the talk back seas in the
iHeartRadio app Susan, how did you interpret his reactions to
(18:28):
the victims' families in court during sentencing when they were
getting their victim impact statement.
Speaker 7 (18:32):
Well, he certainly did move. He stayed very stiff and
frozen on expressionless. But there are some little micro leakages
that did appear that if you weren't really trained in
reading the micro leakages, you would have missed it. So
there were moments where when he became agitated, especially of
(18:57):
the sister who was she just actually I called it
just a mic drop, right, she just came right out,
I'm confident and powerful, and you could see these little
rapid eye blinks.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Right.
Speaker 7 (19:09):
Yes, this is like where he's getting punched, right, So
he doesn't show it in the facial expressions, but you
can see it in the cognitive load with his eye blinking.
So every time he was taking a hit, you could
see that flutter flu want I want.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
People listening, I want people listening to this to go
and rewatch that and listen to what Susan's saying. Because
he even I, the amateur, you know, idiot, was like,
oh my gosh, his eyes are blinking, like because he
never blinks, and he was constantly blinking, and I was like, that's.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Got to be something.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
So go watch that and then and keep Susan's words
in your head when you do so, it's very interesting. Wow.
So those are like micro Those are like micro leakages you.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
Called those, Yeah, they're micro leakages. These are what I'm
looking for, are these uncontrolled, unconscious movements. So in other words,
he hasn't had time to hear what to process what
was said and then adjust his behavior. Okay, there's this
immediate this is unconscious. So when he has these comments
(20:18):
that were made that were very strong, there was also
a little micro head nods like almost as if he
was agreeing with her. Yeah, and that's you know, and
it's really interesting because I'm wondering based on his psychopathy,
because I think he's actually a test model to understand
what's going on that I almost think that there's a
form of that. He actually enjoyed that, so he was
(20:43):
acknowledging it. It was like almost a confirmation he did
that he was successful in doing what he did. And
the cognitive low free time that she hit a sensitive point.
That's when you start to see the flutter. So that's
what we call cognitive low.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And Susan, I'm not sure. Because there were so many
victim statements because these four children were so beloved. There
was an ant who she had sort of a different
purview than the other folks, and she said to the killer, Brian,
I want you to know I forgive you, and if
you ever want to speak to someone with no judgment,
(21:21):
I'm here from you. And similar to body, I as
a total amateur human looking at it, that was the
first time he actually looked like you would almost I
guess how you'd expect a human to react like I
noticed him sort of nod his head. Did you have
any observations on his reaction to that? Ant?
Speaker 7 (21:42):
Sure? Remember when we talked about just those little microls
are so tiny that again you'd miss them. You would
see his facial muscles around his eyes and especially around
his eyes, around his mouth and his upper forehead. Those
are where he holds a lot of tension, and you'll
see those muscles slightly release, just ever so little, and
(22:06):
that's what softened his overall aspect just a little bit.
But that's about as far as Brian Coburger can go,
because he doesn't feel emotion like natural humans do. He
just doesn't. He's vacant and void of any of that.
And he's actually said that and some of his blogs
(22:30):
and so forth. He just doesn't feel it. He doesn't
feel emotion. He doesn't feel like with other people. And
that's true, but you couple that with the aspergers, which
also doesn't read emotions well and doesn't emote the correct emotions,
and the psychopathy is literally he is a cocktail of
(22:50):
all kinds of psychological disorders and it's all in one clump,
and you can see it play out in real life
in his body language.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Wow, So do you see this is kind of off
topic a little bit, but do you see like this
needs to be studied in my opinion, like his behavior.
Speaker 7 (23:08):
Don't you think, Oh, I absolutely positively do.
Speaker 8 (23:12):
I think he is.
Speaker 7 (23:13):
I really do. In fact, I think he's like a
doctor aman, you know, clinic patient. He really needs to
understand what is firing in his brain, you know, what's
lighting up, what's in amigula, what's happening in the prefrontal
frontal lobe. We need to learn about this new psychopathy
(23:34):
that we're seeing a lot of, and that to me
is really becoming very disturbing because we're seeing more and
more and more of this, and it's like, what is
it that they're opening the door to watch? What are
they opening the door to see and to study that
it's creating this fascination as a detachment, emotional detachment of
(23:56):
seeing violent behaviors over and over again to where they
lose that natural sense of empathy, and then you continue
to do it for so long you don't have anymore.
So they can do what they've done with absolutely no guilt,
no remorse, and no emotion at all.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I'm fascinated. So please stand by more with body language
expert Susan Constantine, we're going to be talking about Luigi
Mandion and Karen Reid and what you should know to
protect yourself. And in the second hour we're talking about
the judge's latest decision in Diddy's request for.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Cold Later in the show, we're going to be talking
about the controversial death row execution. It took place today
in Tennessee. And of course we will be responding to
(24:50):
all of your talkbacks for Talkback Tuesday. Again, there's still
time to leave us one tonight or give us a
call eight at eight three to one. Crime. Right now,
we're coming back with body language experts Susan Constantine. So listen,
she's the real deal. She is a leading authority in
human behavior and deception detection. She is someone you did
(25:12):
not want there when you've broken curfew, I would imagine
and listen. She's got over twenty years of experience, one
of the absolute most respected experts in the field, and
we're getting back into it. Body What is the next
case that you want to ask Susan about.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I want to talk about Luigi So Luigi Mangione. He's
a twenty six year old Ivy League graduate. He's been
charged with the December fourth, twenty twenty four killing of
United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson outside of a Manhattan hotel.
He has pled not guilty on all counts, including he's
being charged by the New York State and those charges
(25:53):
carry potential life imprisonment and the federal charges that carry
the possibility of the death penalty. Mandion has garnered what
like substantial public support, raising over a million dollars in
crowdfunded legal contributions, and has been lauded as kind of
like a hero who stood up against greed of the
healthcare industry.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So do you know about Luigi Season?
Speaker 7 (26:17):
Yes, I do know about Louiegan.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
That's when he was.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
They didn't know who he was even prior to finding
out his identity. When I was shown a video, I
can't remember what TV station it was on that I
was on, maybe it was Fox. And when I reviewed
the video, I said, wait a minute. This guy is
not six foot tall as the police had previously set
(26:45):
as a profile, and they didn't really know too much
about other than that, And I said, listen, this guy
is not six foot tall. He's under six foot tall.
He's slender built. The other photograph that was given, which
is where he was in the coffee shop and he
was smiling he'sy gregarious. I said, this is a guy
(27:06):
that people like. He can walk right up to him.
He's very he has got a great personality. I'm sure
he's very well liked. He's probably got lots of friends.
And he said, this is not your typical killer. This
guy is a good looking guy. I said, And with
his bushy eyebrows and deep set eyes and chisel jawline
and square chin, he's Italian and so yeah, and so
(27:29):
it wasn't. But just maybe a few hours after that,
it was announced that the shooter name was Luigi Mangioi.
And I said, see, I told you he was Italian.
But you know, and I have to give you a
little caveat I'm Italian, just spent two weeks in it.
Like so I was looking at those big booshy eyebrows
(27:50):
and deep set eyes, and Jim, we'll face for two weeks.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Right and hopefully eating good pizza along the way.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yes, Wow, So you you helped identify him. Basically you
told them, no, you're not looking for the right the right.
Speaker 7 (28:06):
Well, you know how you can tell when he was
walking down the street, what do we see? We have
cars parked, you know, we have a building we have windows,
and then you measure the height. I did some calculation
on what is the height of that specific car, and
then measured just where his head was just above it.
(28:28):
So I said, this guy is like five foot ten, wow,
And sure enough that's what he was, and then you
could tell what is his I do a lot of work,
In fact, I've got like a couple of cases I'm
working on right now to try to identify a person's
by their gate, their movement, their stride and all that.
We all have specific behavioral characteristics that are our own.
(28:51):
Like if your husband or your partner saw you walking
down the street and go, oh, that's so and so
you know that's my wife. It's because you know they're
their movement and their stride, the way they moved their
hands in their arms. So all of these things that
were able signature behavioral characteristics. So when you're looking for
a suspect, these are things to point out and point
(29:13):
them out so that when somebody's watching a news sit
these are the signatures you should be looking at to
see if you know someone liked.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
That, right.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
I remember the Delphi case the bridge guy. The gate
was a massive sticking point, and then in Sacramento there
was a guy shooting homeless people and he had a
strange gait and that came into play as well. Yes,
that's really interesting that you can recognize all those things
that with body language.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I never thought of that.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
Well, there was a killer that was in Tampa that
was doing something very similar to people walked right up
in a bang just killed them. And that was another
one that I analyzed, provided the profile and the characteristics,
and based on those characteristics they were able to call
or called in and said that this is a person
that looked like some of it with Adam McDonald's just
(30:01):
like Luis DEIMANNGIONI sure enough it was him, and that
goes behavior will six theture what got him off the street.
And he was a young serial murderer and based on
a gate movement, he was flipping his keys around in
his hands as he was walking down the street so nonchalantly.
All of those things are important to identify because they're different,
(30:23):
they're unique to them.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Interesting. It sounds almost like fingerprints. And I can remember
distinctly in college I needed glasses and didn't wear them,
but I would know from far away I could pick
my friends out just by watching how they walked. So interesting.
I guess we all have a little of that that
we're aware of subconsciously. Listen, if you have as many
(30:46):
questions as we do for Susan, give us a call.
We are at eighty eight three to one crime. We
are talking about the importance of body language and Susan
is the real deal expert. I feel like some jures
may possibly be more sympathetic to Mangio And is that
something you've mentioned.
Speaker 7 (31:05):
Sure, yes, So that's one of the things that we're
looking at, is during nullification, because there is a large
community of people, just like in the Karen Reid case,
that almost they connect with her. But you know, in
other words, with Karen Reid, it was you know, they
don't trust police. With Luigimiandoni, it's corporate America, and there's
(31:26):
a lot of people that tend to follow and believe
like he does. They see him as more some of them,
not all, but they they see him as someone that
is speaking on their behalf. So we're concerned about during
nullification because meaning that even though all the evidence would
point to his guilt, that just because they felt that
(31:49):
what he did was not wrong, they can nullify their
own vote and he could walk away free.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Right, What does the seething look and what is tell
you something that you kind of also noticed in Coburger?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (32:04):
Seating? Okay, the seating Brian. All right, let's back up,
because we didn't see it in Brian Coberger. But I
was talking about that before an attack, the victim will
see these behavioral signatures of what we call imminent threat. Okay,
they will be it's imminent that they are going to
(32:25):
be attacked and killed. Okay, So when we saw me
and geone, we saw the lack, the loss of emotional control.
Right when when you see their face flush, you saw
the all of his teeth, they were all showing.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
It was like.
Speaker 7 (32:39):
A you know, a bulldog or something, and it was
just in a rage sense. That's when you see the
loss of emotional control. The furrowed eyebrows, the eyebrows come down,
the eyes become very fixated. And then the even though
the mouth the teeth are showing, the lips are very tight.
(32:59):
That is the attack mode. That's the imminent attack. Just
prior to that, it is starting to morph before they
lose the emotional control. So when we see coburger. We
don't see him in the same place. What I was
stating to one of their producers prior to the show
is that before he attacked the girls, that's what they
(33:22):
would have seen. That is what they would have seen
because prior to that, there is a rehearsal part, a
planning part, and then the execution part. So there is
a none of these killings that happened just out of
the blue. There is a process. If you understand a
lot about serial killers and a lot of doctor Burgess's work,
(33:45):
you'll see how they morph into it. There's a process
is to where they get there, and part of their
process is the excitement and the fascination to getting to
that point. So they've played it over and over and
over again in their mind. That's why they don't show
a lot of that level of motion right before, because
they're calculated. So it's right before it when they start
(34:06):
to lose the emotional control that you actually see that seeding,
that anger, that that detachment, that animal like type of behavior.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah, So that's we need we need to watch out
for that. We need to watch out for that gaze.
Speaker 7 (34:22):
Oh yeah, that gaze where it's just you know, when
people would describe a person, they'll say their eyes were
like black as coal, like there wasn't anybody there. That's scary. Yeah,
you know, And that's what's so frightening is what those
four you know, college students saw, or what a person
sees right before that. I mean, it just is you
(34:45):
don't even want to even feel what they felt then
because it's so horrifying, but that's what they experience.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Wow's interesting? Now, is this seizing something that we would
see in our own lives, So just in personal lives.
So taking gross criminals and by gross I mean you know,
very big criminals off the table for a second, are
there dangerous signs we should sort of look out for
in our own life?
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Sure, when we're looking at those dangerous behavioral signatures, whether
it depends only we're not this not a killer, could
be someone that's been a sexual assault, or someone that's
trying to the predator that's trying to get close to you,
to get to your children or to you to you know,
(35:34):
violate you. You know, there's that grooming process that very charismad,
They very likable. In fact, I'm writing a book and
I wrote it as you and I I never met
a murderer I didn't like. And it's because some of
them can really turn on the charm big time. But
the minute you go against or speak against, or are
not participating in whatever it is, they will change. And
(36:00):
New York second on.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
You, Susan, before you have to go, and we have
a really short segment. We've only got a few minutes.
What can you quickly tell us about your observations about
Karen Reid? And for those who don't know Karen Reid,
she's a forty four year old financial analyst and former professor.
She was tried for killing her Boston police officer boyfriend
John O'Keefe, but she was recently acquitted. And you know,
(36:24):
she had some she had kind of like a cold
fish demeanor in court.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, she got a lot of criticism. What can you
tell us about that.
Speaker 7 (36:31):
Susan, Well, she did, she was She had a very
cold demeanor that between the smirks, the eye rolls, and
the contempt facial expressions and also the talking back and
forth of this attorney, a lot of that in the
flipping the hair back, a lot of smongness that she showed.
But I think that what happened over time, just like
the Casey anthonydraw and I saddle all the way through
(36:52):
that one and reported on it, is that when you're
looking at someone for a long time, they start to
really air off on you, and meaning that they started
to connect with her, especially one of the female jurors said,
the smugness and the dislike that she had, she actually
liked about her after a while and found that her
confidence was more intoxicating, right, That was more convincing to
(37:15):
her that she was innocent than guilty. So it's interesting
how jurors interpret what we see. You know, it's not
always what we think is the heroal analysts, because it
really depends on that twelve panel jury and what they
see and it could be totally different.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
That is so interesting. And I have a question for you, Susan.
Do you take into account where someone is from? And
I asked, because I'm from the Northeast most of the
people that I know the best are and her asfect
seemed very quote normal to me, like she So how
does that come into play?
Speaker 7 (37:54):
Well, because those that are like her will resonate with
her because it'll be familiar if it was unfamiliar.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
If you know that.
Speaker 7 (38:03):
Let's if it's a New Jersey or Boston me that
kind of rough, gross, kind of demeanor. You know, you
take that and you's down south, it's going to be different, right,
So you know, when you're selecting a jury, that's really
important because we look at those demographic factors. What are
the similar demographics of what we're looking for the world
best that will be less dangerous to our client, be
(38:26):
unbiased and give her, you know, the benefit of the doubts.
So people that are like you tend to vote more
like you.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
So she was being tried like in Georgia or like
Louisiana or even California, there might have been a different
response from the jury because they might have perceived her
kind of like I do. I'm from the West Coast
and I perceived her as pretty cold, but you know,
being frying Boston, I might be like, she's.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Just a normal chick. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a
ton of sense. And thank god she didn't get tried
in California then.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
That would have been that would have been good. Well, Susan,
we're hoping very much that you will come back, particularly
I can't wait to talk about the book. Can you
just give us the title and where we're sure at
the end of time. What's the title?
Speaker 7 (39:15):
Yeah, it's going to be coming out penning out of
twenty twenty six. It's called How to Spot a Liar
in Seven Seconds or Less.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I need that book immediately. Yeah, absolutely, well, listen, Susan,
We thank you very much for joining us. It has
been an absolute pleasure and fascinating. You've shed light on
so many things. And if you want to know more
about Susan or to contact her, her website is Susan Constantine.
Just how it sounds s U s A N C
(39:44):
O N S T A N T I n E
dot com and keep it here True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Later it's talk Back Tuesday, you guys. I am so
excited for Talkback Tuesday. I cannot wait to hear all
the questions and all the comments that you guys have.
We have not listened to them prior to so it's
going to be literally talk back Roulette. We're going to
have to be on our game Courtney. All right, all right, right,
so let's hear talk back now. Let's get us warmed up.
Speaker 8 (40:22):
Okay, fair, Hi, Courtney, Stephanie and Body is Ainsley calling
again from Canada.
Speaker 7 (40:28):
Ainsley, I was just wondering if.
Speaker 9 (40:30):
You guys could share what your podcast recommendations are. I
know we talked a lot about what's on the streaming services,
but I'd love to hear what you ladies are listening to.
Thanks and looking forward to listening to you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Bye, Thank you, Ainsley.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I want to go to Canada, dude. Listen.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Canada is probably the best place ever. Like I've been
there many times. I tried to leave and go to Canada.
I actually did. They were like, no, I love Canada
and I love Canadians. I do well as of this show,
so too do I.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
I couldn't have said that.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
I have a special place in my heart, and I
think it's because of the Lucas stuff and all the
stuff I went through in Canada. And plus I was
born in Detroit. I could literally look out my window
and see Canada across the Detroit River winds Canada, and
we would go over there all the time.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
It's a great country, like Sarah Pale and how she
could see Alaska. Yes, it's literally like that podcast. What
podcasts are you listening to?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Courtney.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, I Betrayal and yeah, that is excellent, so good, compelling, surprising, heartfelt.
It's really really great and we're actually we'll be talking
more about it. We'll leave it there, but Betrayal. This
is not a new one, but S Town is maybe
(41:50):
my favorite podcast I've ever listened to. I'd call it
true crime. Adjay statement, Yeah, but it's beautiful and not
in a happy way. It's s Town excellent. And I'll
throw one more out there, a true crime one. And
this is also reaching back. I was kind of what
(42:12):
really resonated me. It's called a Killing on the Cape
and I used to set my watch. This was literally
years ago, and I forget when it dropped, but I
would be like, oh my god, it's gonna come out
right now. And the storytelling is unbelievable. The crime is
you're guessing the whole time and it's really really well told.
So those and then for a new one. One more
(42:35):
is My Friend Daisy, which you should check it out.
So I got.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Well, mine are not true crime, well, they might be
true crime adjacent, but the ones I've been listening to
a lot are It's called Breadcrumbs by Trace Labs and
it's all about like open source investigations, and you know,
that's something that I'm super into, so I guess it's
kind of true crime adjacent. But they talk about a
lot of like the ocent tools, the open source investigation tools,
(43:03):
to use the terminology, how to pivot correctly in your investigations,
and how to you know, critically think about things and
you know, access data points that you really have to
work hard to access.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It's a really, really, really great podcast. I really like it.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
And going along with that, I also really like the
Cyber Sluice Show, and he has a really good community.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
It's really great. He's got like a really great discord
or YouTube.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Channel, and I really like that one a lot, and
it talks a lot about the same topics, you know,
researching things on your own and how not to get
caught up in the noise, and it's it's very good
and I like them both. The other one I really
like is my friend Christian Marciano. She has a podcast
called Worth the Weight, and it's going through her weight
(43:52):
loss journey with her girlfriend, her friend, and they talk about,
you know, their relationships and how men perceive them losing weight.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
It's very good and check out interesting, Okay, like it's.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
All right, what a great question though it's surprising though,
like the ones, Oh the other one, Oh my god,
I'm so silly, the whole massacre.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Of course, of course I listened to that. I'm on it.
I gotta listen. Indeed, I happened to know the voice
of that and the insights you bring. So there will
be much more. There will be season three. I just
did a rick.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
I just did a session, uh for season three, and
we were on for like three hours.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Listen, there's a lot, there's a lot to talk about.
So that is in process as we as we speak.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
So now we're going to cover some of today's top
true crime headlines, right Courtney, what have you been working on?
Speaker 10 (44:42):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
All right, So in Tennessee, a man has been executed.
He was an inmate named Byron Black, and claims were
ignored that his implanted defibrillator could cause unnecessary and prolonged
pain and duration of the execution. He was executed for
(45:03):
a shooting back in nineteen eighty eight, and it was brutal.
It was for the death of his girlfriend and her
two daughters, and that happened while he was actually on
work release. But bottom line, this man did suffer multiple
serious health issues. He did have that implanted defibrillator, and
(45:24):
it led to a contentious debate over whether it should
be deactivated before his execution, which I feel like, regardless
of where you fall on the spectrum of you know,
lethal injection or death penalty in general, I don't know.
I think we can all agree that we can take
out something that's going to add the even potentially add
(45:47):
the extra pain. So there was a lot of back
and forth, but that is where it ended. So that's that.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Yeah, I do have feelings about that. I do think
it's you know, I don't like when the governments or
you know, like somebody in power, let's say, has the
you know ability to you know, inflict torture, you know,
and I think that if it could have been torture, is.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Just remove it. I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I guess I just don't understand well. In other news,
a judge has granted Luigi Mangione a laptop to access
in jail so he can prepare for his pending trial. Luigimangione,
of course, he has been accused of murdering health United
Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in December of last year. He
has been held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn
(46:32):
and he awaits trial. The prosecutors alleged that the killing
was politically motivated, citing a manifesto found on Mangion after
his rest days later. It was like five days later
in Pennsylvania. So this federal judge approved Mangione's request for
access to his government prepared laptop y in jail. He
can use the laptop every single day, eight o'clock to
(46:54):
four pm, seven days a week. The device is restricted
from the Internet, wireless networks, and printing, and it only
allows him access to his case related to materials. And
it's my understanding that it's like seven terabytes worth of
materials that he'll have access to.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
It's pretty interesting.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
So it's basically all his all his discovery. And yeah,
you know so, and this is apparently to get him
prepared for his trial coming up.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I mean, listen, that makes a lot more sense, you know,
to have to have a device that your counsel has
requested to assist in his own defense.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Right, And I know it's not really the norm though,
It's not really the norm for inmates to be given
this privilege. I mean, this is a privilege, but it's
not unheard of either. Courts are illegally obligated to ensure
the defendants can participate meaningfully in their own defense, and
this is going to help him do that.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, and you know, this government approved or whatever the
verbage was, laptop seems a lot more reasonable than pizza
delivery and Sarah, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
I unbelievable. I still can't believe that guy. I hope, listen,
I hope Austin Drummond does not get the same privileges
that he had.
Speaker 9 (48:10):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I like to imagine a future where he does not. Yeah,
that is my hope, and that is I'm going to
just put it out put it out there as a wish. Listen,
if you have any opinions on what you think prisoners
should or should not. Should prisoners have pizza, Maybe I'm wrong,
pizza and soak.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
It wasn't pizza though, no, I was delivery.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
It was not to journo. Listen, if you have an opinion,
give us a call eight eight eight to three one
crime or send us a talkback and we will shortly
be getting to multiple talkbacks after the headlines. But I've
got another one for you body, and I got to
(48:53):
hand it to Diddy's legal team. The it was ten
one point. I'm not sure where we are, but the
judge has denied him bail for the fifth time, so
his legal team has applied five times. So give it
to them for persistence. And this is all ahead of
(49:14):
his October third sentencing hearing, of course, did he was convicted.
This was last month and it was on kind of
the smallest charges that he had been charged with. It
was charge of transportation to a gauge in prostitution. And
he has been held for coming up on a year.
It'll be a year very soon, and that's at the
(49:35):
Brooklyn Metropolitan Detention Center with Luigi. That's right, Yeah, that's right.
But so they I guess the denials keep coming, as do.
I wonder if they'll ask again. I don't know, but
the judge has been clear and cited clear and convincing
evidence that Combs posed a risk of flight or danger
(49:57):
to the community.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
And so we learned yesterday that victim number three, Combs's
ex girlfriend again, she was identified as victim number three.
She wrote a letter supporting bail. So apparently this letter
didn't have any sway with the judge at all.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
Right, Well, I think it was also counterbalanced by previous
letters that we know from other victims. Although this woman
did not testify victim number three because again at the
time of the trial, she was quote unreachable by the attorneys.
But I think the judge stayed with what they said
at the beginning, which was, you know that he is
(50:39):
a danger and that the victims felt concerned.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Well, I have another piece of news, this first time.
This one's kind of wild, and we don't have a
lot of time, but I'm going to go very quickly. Yeah, Bill,
this I was not expecting this. Bill and Hillary Clinton
have reportedly been subpoenaed by the House Oversight Committee in
connection to the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
What so, Yeah, so there.
Speaker 3 (51:04):
The House Oversight Committee is investigating connections to Jeffrey Epstein
and Glaine Maxwell, focusing on you know, potential involvement of
prominent political and law enforcement figures. And as part of
this probe, former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of
State Hillary Clinton have been subpoena to give depositions. So
the committee chair, Rep. James Comer from Kentucky he's a
(51:28):
Republican out of Kentucky. He's leaving the subpoenas. Other people
that have been subpoena include former FBI director James Comy
and Robert Mueller.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Interesting, right, it's interesting, And I got to say, I'm
surprised by your surprise. I think anyone would want to
depose the Clintons. You think, yes, of course I do
on opposing you know, I think any Democrats would would
like the opportunity to depose Republicans and so to get
(52:00):
them in. And we know that Bill Clinton has been
tied to Epstein. So right, and we are getting back
into it. We can't say it enough. It is our
absolute favorite part of the week. It is talkback Tuesday.
Literally excited for real.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Yes, And I know Sam and Adam are two in
the control room because they're going to keep us on
Johnny on the spot here.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Right, Well, they're a little drunk with power because they're
they're literally dishing out, you know, the questions we get.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Adam is literally giving me the evil I don't.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah, yeah, how can we stump the hosts? I think
we call it talkback Tuesday. They call it stump the hosts. Right,
and by the way, when we say talkbacks, we're also
including voicemails, yes, and dms as well, because we read them,
we listen to them, we use them all and you know,
it really does help us shape the show. We've said
that before, but it is there have been multiple like
(52:51):
earlier this evening when we had our body language expert
on that was because of a talkbacker. So you know,
thank you. Okay, let's get into our first us. Wait.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
Hold on, I'm I'm kind of scared. I'm not gonna lie.
Adam literally is giving me the evil eye.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
I'm a little a little bit, but I'm excited. Totally
normal talk back. It's just the same as all the others.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Okay, all right, you say, so let's hear it.
Speaker 4 (53:17):
Hello, this is Steve from Greater New Orleans area. You
all were talking tonight. This past showed about the uh,
I forget how you phrased it, the dark tours like
the Jim Jones and so forth. But when you think
about one, I've been on the Jack the Ripper tours.
You don't get much more gruesome than that. And look,
(53:40):
well over a century people have been going to it's
maybe one hundred and fifty yar I's get when they
exactly happened, but people have been going paying good money
left and right for those tours, so it's shifts. I
don't know if it's a deep factor night, but it's
part of human nature to want to somehow receive those scenes. Anyway,
thank you. It was fantastic. Oh wait, it's just really awesome.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
I think he's probably listening on voodoo, right Voodoo. We
learned that from our friend Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
Yeah, I went on that Jack the ripertre Thank you
for the talk back. By the way, I went on
that Jack the repertorire when I went to cron Con
UK twenty twenty one, and it was fantastic. I was
exhausted by the end of it because it's a lot
of walking, but it is fantastic and I think he's
right there is you know, there is part of human
nature that wants to kind of explore the dark and
(54:33):
ceedy with with the you know, the ability to remain safe. Right, Like,
I know I'm on a tour and I know grewsome
things happened here and you know at this particular spot,
let's say, on the street. But I know that I'm
completely safe right now. And I think there's it's very
attractive to a lot of people, I think, and including
me absolutely.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
And yeah, Steve, thank you so much. I'd love a
New Orleans accent so much, it really but you know,
I think you're exactly right. And this is peripheral. But
I worked for many years. I did about eighty episodes
of a par and normal show and what it was called,
it was called My Ghost Story ran on the Biography channel. Anyway.
(55:18):
It was people and and a lot of a lot
of the stories it was people's personal stories, and a
lot of it had to do with going to you know,
the Lizzie Borden House or a specific in addition to
stuff that happened in their own homes. But there was
it's kind of the crossover in terms of the history.
In terms of what are the dark stories of this,
(55:39):
it was Getty's Bird. Oh, you know, war fields and stuff,
and it really it combines stuff and I think body
like you said, of also knowing you're safe while getting
too it's yeah, yeah, it's it's humanatu.
Speaker 3 (55:54):
It's like it's like going to something dangerous without actually
being in danger, you know, kind of like how people
go to those parachuting buildings where they can simulate skydiving.
They're not really in danger, but they get the feeling
of the skydiving, you know what I mean. Like it's
kind of like, listen, it's kind of like that in
my head. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can walk down
(56:17):
the streets that Jack the Ripper was hunting people and
still be safe.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (56:23):
Yeah, I don't know' that's my attraction at least. It's
it's like kind of like living on the edge but
still being an old grandma and not having to actually
really be in danger. I'm all about that. That's like me,
you know what I mean. Anyway, thank you see so much.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
For the talkback. What we are next? What's next? Light
us up? Adam.
Speaker 11 (56:39):
Hi guys, I really enjoyed your coverage last night of
the Canon Barbie Killers. I just have a question on
whether or not you think that Paul Bernardo and Carla
Hamolco would have been capable of committing these crimes on
their own if they wouldn't have met one another.
Speaker 10 (56:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 11 (56:55):
I'm really curious to see what you guys think. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (56:58):
Yeah. Wow, So I got a lot of feedback about
the canon Barbie, especially from Courtney. She was like, man,
that was rough to listen to. It's a rough story.
Would they have been so Paul Bernardo was in fact
the Scarsboro rapist prior to meeting Carla. So yes, I
think Paul was already you know, experimenting in you know,
(57:21):
violent and deviant behavior and possibly would have continued down
that road and escalated to murder without Carla. But I
don't know if Carla would have. I think Carla basically
my opinion of Carla is that she sort of morphed
into whoever Paul.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
Wanted her to be.
Speaker 3 (57:42):
Do you know what I mean? I don't think Carla.
I think she's a psychopath one hundred percent. But I
think she's a psychopath because she's just gonna pairrot whoever
she's with.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
And do you think, because I believe you had said
that in some of the videos that she was directing him,
directing him, Yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
In some of the videos, she's teasing the sus you know,
the victims, she's making fun of them, she's directing Paul
on what to do next, you know, telling them to
shut up, making sure the blindfolds are tight.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
You know things like that.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
But again I think I listen, I'm not a psychologist,
all right, but.
Speaker 2 (58:20):
I had to read.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
Oh I didn't have to, but in part as part
of what I was working on, I learned a lot
about her and I got the impression and I would
actually kind of like to talk to somebody about this
at one point that she was just really parroting whoever
she's with. So she was if she's right now, she's
with her lawyer's brother, and I think she's, you know,
parroting being a professional parent. I don't think I think
(58:43):
she's a psychopath underneath, though she just parrots who's ever
she's with, all right, by herself, though, I don't think
she would have done anything unless she hooked up with
another psycho. That's just my opinion. I'm not a professionalist,
and don't listen to.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Me, no, but listen the question and was asking opinions.
That's right, that's right, it is if you want to
join us eighty eight to three to one crime. This
is true crime tonight. And we are in the middle
of talk Back Tuesday, and let's just pop right into
another one at NEUS.
Speaker 10 (59:16):
Hey, guys, so I know you've been talking about a
bunch of man hunts recently, and I was just wondering
why you think there's been an increase in these violent fenders.
Speaker 9 (59:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:25):
It's tough. I don't know the answer, but we have
been thinking about it, you know, the crime because man hunts.
I don't know if people are choosing more sort of
secluded areas. Although Mangione, who was last year, that was
you know, it doesn't he was on the run for
five days. He was on the run for five days,
and that was in the most one of the more
(59:46):
congested places on planet Earth. But a lot of these
other ones are in rural places. I mean, one commonality
that I've seen, not in all, but in several of
these multitude is better and status. And it honestly makes
me wonder about if people there's an uptick in decreased
(01:00:07):
mental health care, specifically for veterans. So I don't know,
it's something we want to look into, because I agree
it seems more prevalent.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
It does seem more prevalent. And you know, there's also
like the we just had the Maan hunt in New
Orleans for all the prisoners that escape us. So you know,
there's those kinds of man hunts too, right, and then
there was like that Daniello cavocante out of Pennsylvania that
went on for several weeks as well. You know, I
think I think there's always been man hunts. I think
(01:00:38):
we're living in a different world right now where there's
a twenty four hour news cycle and this is very
popular coverage to cover, right So, like you have social
media influencers covering these things. Now you have of course,
you know, mass media, you know, uh covering this and
on a bigger scale. So I think we're just hearing
(01:00:59):
about do you know what I mean? Like, I feel
like I feel like it's just more popular because people
are riveted by these stories, right So, and I also,
in combination with what Courtney said too though about them
the ones that we've been following recently kind of been
happening happening in like really isolated areas so that people
have a chance to get away. And I think that
(01:01:20):
has a big part in it too. But that was
a really good question and really kind of hard to answer.
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah, but thank you, thank you keep us thinking. Definitely
stuffed the host on that one. Yeah, what have we
got next.
Speaker 12 (01:01:30):
Out of them?
Speaker 13 (01:01:30):
I listened to the Kenon Barbie episode you just had
on How does the videotapes not knock out the plea
I thought in lea deals, if you're found guilty or
getting bad information, that is no longer.
Speaker 6 (01:01:45):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
So, yeah, that was a good question, he asked. It
was kind of hard to hear. He asked, why Carla
was able to, you know, still plea. You know, the
videos were found of her torturing these victims and participating
in the murders of Paul Bernardo. Answers really simple, so,
but it's infuriating. The tapes changed everything, right, But they
(01:02:07):
were found after the plea deal had been finalized and
was legally binding, and she had already testified against Paul Bernardo.
It's almost like double jeopardy at that point. Now this
is Canada, it's a completely different country. The same thing applies.
She couldn't be tried again, you know what I mean.
She couldn't be tried again. She already confessed, she got
(01:02:27):
a manslaughter charge, she got a sentence, everything was already done,
it was legally binding. And now the country was completely
outraged by this. They called it's the deal with the Devil,
I think is what they called it. But because it
was legally binding, there's something they could do. Like the
prosecutors were like they were upset too, but again they
(01:02:48):
couldn't charge her. She already pled couldn't do it that
like Brian Coberger right now could say, yeah, I did it,
and it was you know, but there's something you can do.
He's already been sentenced in charge and everything you can do.
Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
It's tough. I think that's one of those cases where
the exception almost proves the rule, because my knee jerk is,
let's take it away, and you know, if you find
anything after a plea, but then nothing would be binding,
ever exactly, and it would just be chaotic.
Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
She fulfilled the details of her plea agreement her. The
details were that she was to testify against Paul Bernardo,
and she had already doubled that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
So she fulfilled her right.
Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
And all right, Adam, let's get back into it. It's
talk back Tuesday. Light us up.
Speaker 11 (01:03:40):
Hi.
Speaker 10 (01:03:40):
I just wanted to add, when you guys were talking
about the Jonestown massacre, I feel like something that doesn't
get talked about enough with that whole case is that
seventy I've seen say that seventy to eighty percent of
its members were African Americans who were drawn to Jim
Jones because he preached a racially integrated utopia. Yeah, and
(01:04:01):
that's why they joined, which I just feel like is
such an important detail and just really adds to the
tragedy of the whole situation.
Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
That's a really good point. You know, Jim Jones promoted
racial integration, and he was a socialist and the people.
That's why it's called the People's Temple, right, it's oh right, yeah, Okay,
So a large number of African Americans were at Jonestown
because you know, they reached out and attracted black individuals,
particularly in urban areas like San Francisco and Los Angeles, right,
(01:04:30):
because that's where they were based out of. They were
drawn in by themes of like racial equality, social justice,
and community support living in a community, and hard to
argue with those, especially in this time. You know, you
have to remember this is like the sixties and seventies.
You know, the Civil rights movement was you know, hard
and fast at this time, and you have this really
(01:04:52):
charismatic leader preaching about racial equality and how this church
this is racially integrated and everybody's equal and it's you know,
obviously going to be very attractive to people looking for acceptance,
right yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
A little humanity and God on top of it. All.
Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Right, so it's going to be very appealing. And you know,
Jim Jones on the surface right sounds Listen, this is
probably a cult I would be in, right, Like you know,
Stephanie always jokes like, oh, I probably this is probably
what I'd be like looking at, you know, like, oh, okay,
you know, because I'm into all these things, these themes.
I'm into the you know, the themes of community living
(01:05:36):
and racial equality and you know, gay rights and things
like that, and these are all things that Jim Jones
was like saying he was about, So yeah, this is
something I would be like, oh yeah, sign me up.
Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
But then ultimately, because it does that sounds wonderful those tenants,
but then ultimately it obviously turns dark. There's almost nine
hundred people there. But along the way, Jones he was
exploiting fear, he articularly in the black and minority communities
and saying like, oh it was it sort of if
(01:06:07):
you don't join forces with us, that you'll be rounds
it up by government concentration camps. If you leave the cult. Oh,
that's in a little bit of research, because after we talked,
I did a little bit of research. And yeah, as
a way, and that's also part of almost any cult
is there needs to be reasons to stay, and they're
(01:06:29):
usually fear based.
Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
I did not know that. I think that's what actually,
now that you bring it up. You know, there's a
documentary on Netflix and I think it's called Jonestown The
People's Temple or something like that, and I think in
that documentary, now that you mention it, I think they
say that they they left the States to go down there,
because I think Jim Jones was starting to say they're
coming after us. Because yeah, no, I think you're right now.
(01:06:54):
It's sparking all these memories now, but yeah, he used
this message of racial utopia basically manipulate everybody.
Speaker 11 (01:07:01):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Right, very interesting and that's a really good talk back
and something that we absolutely should have mentioned. It's just,
you know, we only have a few minutes to talk
about these things, but thank you for the talkback.
Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
What do we have next?
Speaker 14 (01:07:13):
Hi, It's Cynthia from Canada.
Speaker 10 (01:07:14):
Car.
Speaker 14 (01:07:15):
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on Gielenne Maxwell's
attorneys attempting to quash the release of the grand jury
uh transcripts that may be released if there's an agreement
or that the Justice Department pushes to have them released. Thanks,
have a good night.
Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
The transcripts the grand jury of Hurrican See, I didn't
know that, Cynthia are teaching me same so Glaine Maxwell's
grand jury indictment transcripts. They're attempting to quash the release
of that. Why would they be released?
Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Grand jury? I'm yeah, Cynthia, I Cindy, I have to
call us, honey, Yeah, you got you gottapology is exactly
what you're talking about. But I think think I'm gonna
punt because I would like to be informed to answer
this tomorrow, because I can't imagine it's hard for me
to imagine a universe where there say, anyone is saying
(01:08:10):
release the grand jury transcripts. I mean, they are held
so secretive. So we will answer tomorrow. But I think
it's really interesting, strange.
Speaker 15 (01:08:24):
I will definitely look into it more. I just pulled
up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
We cannot you know, what is there anything? You know?
Speaker 15 (01:08:29):
All I hear see is prosecutors have filed emotion in
Southern District of New York to unseal grand jury transcripts
of the Maxwell sex trafficking investigation, arguing it's in the
interest of the public transparency. So you really something there
about it?
Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Okay, Yeah, so that.
Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
The prosecutors are asking for it to be unsealed and
the defense is saying.
Speaker 15 (01:08:51):
Uh uh, that seems to be the case.
Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
I can't imagine, you know, she's still in prison now
she goes out or something, or I just can't imagine
that they'll do that.
Speaker 15 (01:09:02):
Yeah, I cannot see that either.
Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
But given the at this point worldwide, that's strudiny so interesting.
We'll see if we can come with more, you know,
a little bit more facts and knowledge tomorrow. But yeah,
till then, thank you, Cynthia.
Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
Until then, keep it right here on True Crime Tonight.
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm body Move
and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong. Give us a call
eight at eight thirty one crime or send us a talkback.
We're doing talkback Tuesday right now. Adam is hitting us
with all the talkbacks. What do you got for us next, Adam?
Speaker 12 (01:09:32):
Hey, lady Stephanie from Ohio, just a quick comment on
the dark tourism discussion. I just wanted to say, for
me personally, it depends on if history, if it's something
that we've moved past from, or if it's something that
is still occurring. Because with Jeffrey Dahmer, we're still having
serial killers, We're still having these types of murders. But
(01:09:53):
when it comes to for example, the Holocaust is something
we've learned from and moved on from.
Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Love to hear your intake. Thanks, Oh have we though?
Have we learned from it? Yeah? Yeah, I mean there
have been. I had mentioned going to the Museum of Tolerance,
which is in Los Angeles and highlights the atrocities of
the Holocaust, and it also does put a spotlight on
(01:10:22):
other genocides. So I wish we'd learned more as humanity. Yeah,
genocides go sadly go on and are going on. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
I definitely see where she's saying though, Like for me,
it's if is the victims like immediate family is still around.
And for what she's saying though, is that you know,
serial killers are still like an endemic part of society.
They're still affecting us today, and so you know it's
probably not appropriate to go.
Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
To those things.
Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
But like, let's say there was like a polio museum, right,
obviously we've moved on from polio. Everyone's got back scenes.
You know that there's people in India right now giving
vaccines to polio to kids. Like it's something that we've
kind of eradicated, and so that's something that you know,
we could probably do. And I definitely see what she's
(01:11:14):
coming from. From my perspective, I kind of do the
same thing. But for me, it's if the family of
the victim, the immediate family the victims are still alive, Like,
for instance, did Jack the Ripper. Nobody the immediate family
Jack the Ripper's victims are no longer alive. So I
felt very comfortable going on that tour.
Speaker 15 (01:11:33):
Just playing playing Devil's Advocate. Would would you go to
uh Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gracie tour? I mean
those are you know, those are more recent than something
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
I don't think I would. No, I say I don't
think I would. I would have. I wouldn't enjoy myself.
I would feel very guilty, so I probably wouldn't go.
Speaker 9 (01:11:54):
Now.
Speaker 15 (01:11:54):
Yeah, I'm kind of.
Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Yes, I'll be too busy at Chernobyl. Yeah, I really
want to go.
Speaker 6 (01:12:01):
I know.
Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
By the way, So first of all, I thank you
for the talk back, and you know, I think what
you said it's interesting. We all have lines. Like my
line kept sliding all around when we were talking with
Joseph Scott Morgan and I was like, well, so it's interesting.
I think it's you know, our own it's individual ethical,
moral thing. But ps body, when you said a polio museum.
Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Well I was so curious. I going to that museum
in the National Museum of American History and our very
own Washington, d C. There is an exhibition and a
collection whatever happened to polio? Are you serious? Yes? There is? Wow.
So anyway, Yeah, it's a big world. There's always there's
you know, so there is that. Anyway. Do you want
(01:12:51):
to do another talk pic? Yeah, let's do it. Let's
do it.
Speaker 6 (01:12:53):
Hey, ladies, I have a question. I watched the documentary
Deadly American Marriage HM and was just really blown away
by it. What are your opinions on the documentary? I
really don't know what to think. I'm not even sure
what the truth is. After watching that documentary, what do
you think on that.
Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Put us on the spot? Yeah, I think it was
really well done. I do think that Mollie, who was
participating in her husband's you know, being beaten to death
by a baseball bat with her and her father, I
think she really did have problems. According to people who
(01:13:35):
are in the documentary, she did say bald face lies,
like a reality that everyone else was living in. Was
that she was brought in and met the kids and
her future husband now deceased as the au pair, and
then she spun this crazy story that she was best
friends with the dead woman that she never met. That
is deeply problematic to me, like there is something wrong backwards.
(01:13:59):
I also thought that the way she spoke about her
will not adopted kids, which is probably why this man died,
that just the way she was speaking about them after
the fact, it just seemed very fake.
Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
She was victim blaming, you think, yeah, right, Like she
was victim blaming and saying, you know that he was
really a bad guy with a really horrible temper and
abusive and you know, made the kids lie. And for me,
I believe the kids. I believe the kids. I believe
his children. And his children tell us that Mollie told
(01:14:38):
them to lie and that if they told the truth,
they would be taken away from her and.
Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Their little kids.
Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
This is the only mother they've ever known, right, Like
they were so young when their real mother passed away.
This is really the only mother they've ever known. And
of course they're gonna lie, right anyway, I believe the kids,
and that's really all I can say about that.
Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
As a reminder, if you have to any part of
the show, you can always catch the podcast. And we
want to hear with you, So reach out to us
on socials at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and
Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And we are
wrapping up talk Back Tuesday, our favorite sort of hour
(01:15:18):
of the week because it is with you, And let's
go to a talk back now, Adam, what you got Hi?
Speaker 8 (01:15:25):
I am a first time caller, but I absolutely love
this True Crime Tonight and I am calling and regarding
some titles for the documentary The Watch Club. So some
suggestions that I have are truth, Real Society, Unscripted Perspectives,
(01:15:48):
True Story Circle, what my documented minds?
Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Oh?
Speaker 8 (01:15:55):
Real talk really and sorry?
Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
I love it?
Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Doc What was the documenting times? What was the one
she said?
Speaker 15 (01:16:05):
Documented mind?
Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
I like that one, honestly, she said at the beginning,
said a name for the watch club. I'm like, oh,
that it is.
Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
Yeah, And listen, I know we've been kind of teasing
this and whatnot, but you know, we've had some personnel out,
and so I don't want to start this without Stephanie.
And she was coming back very very very very very
very soon, and so I've just kind of been waiting
for her and I miss you very much. And I
think we also want to jump into Son of Sam
with that. What do you guys think about that? It's
(01:16:38):
out on Netflix, the David Berkowits capes. I think we could.
I love the story of the Son. I don't love
Son of Sam, but I like the story of Son
of Sam, and I like how the Son of Sam
laws were implemented because of him, right, And I think
I think I kind of want to start covering that
case too, and that you know, we'll fold right into
the show. Look at actually kind of looking forward to it.
I'm pointing at Taha right now saying.
Speaker 15 (01:16:59):
Oh, I'm jotting it down as you said that. Actually
I'm also fascinated by so.
Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
Yeah, it's a it's a fascinating story. And the whole
the whole like area, the Tri State area in New
York was like shut down this whole summer. And it
was a sweltering summer with brownouts and they were hot,
and people were scared and were having to sleep with
their windows closed and it's sweltering with these brownouts and
it was just a really interesting time in this nation.
Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
I might try and get my mom on the show.
It would be way past her bedtime, but yeah, because
she was in Queen's at the time. She was Weregnant
at the time that summer, and she said, yeah, with
all the brown outs and I mean, son is Sam,
it was it was serious business. It was you know,
just someone clicked through it. It was a pressure cooker.
Speaker 3 (01:17:47):
Literally, and these poor families are their kids are sweating
in their bedrooms and they can't open the windows because
the Boogeyman's out there literally, right. Yeah, so this summer
of chaos and it it's very interesting and I really
want to watch a documentary and talk about it with
you guys, So please don't give up on me in
this watch club because it is happening.
Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
Watch club. Gosh, yeah, you guys are brilliant. So we're
adding all these titles to the list and listen, Boddy,
how fun was this to have everyone hanging out with
us tonight? Yeah, tomorrow, good news pop culture expert Doran
oh Fear Hey yeah, so he will be with us.
(01:18:29):
He's going to be breaking down the latest. Oh, we'll
be getting into the truecom topics of the day, the
headlines of the day, and also with Doran, we're going
to get into post malone, stalker and the unfolding Blake
Lively saga. And we leave you with that and can't
wait to speak with you tomorrow. Good night, True Nightbody
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, it is August fifth.
I'm Courtney Armstrong and co host Stephanie Leidecker, who heads
up Katie Studios. She is out this evening, but I
am lucky enough to be here as always with crime
analyst and star of Netflix's Emmy winning Donut with Cats,
(00:43):
Body Move and herself. Guess what we have tonight? We
got a stacked night of Headlive.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
It wouldn't be True Crime tonight if we didn't have
a stacked night.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Of Heavy, it would not listen. We've got body language experts,
Susan Constantine. She'll be joining us. She's going to be
giving insights into Brian Coberger, Karen Reid, and honestly, if
you guys want to ask her any questions eight A
eight three one crime. She's someone we've been dying to
talk to for a while. Also, we are going to
(01:12):
be breaking down there's latest headlines on Shanda de Comb's
Luigi Mangio and the Epstein Case and favorite day of
the week it is talk back Tuesday. We cannot wait
to get into all of these. Sam and Adam in
the control room. They have been busy, busy bees getting
these all compiled for us. And yeah, it ranges from
(01:33):
topics and there's still plenty of time if you want
to leave a talk back or give us a call
again eight eight eight to three to one Crime. We're
here for the next two hours and we are going
to go to a talkback right now. Let's do it.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Hello this Gigi and I love your podcast.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I'm currently walking if I've found out of breath anyway,
I hear you. I recently watched Deadly American Marriage. Thought
it was a really well done documentary. It blows my mind.
She basically is still claiming her innocence. But what do
you think about her dad, mister FBI, and the fact
that he was involved. Why do you think he thought
that he could get away with it just because of
(02:13):
his background?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Well, I think he thought he could get away with
it because he did right. Yeah, I mean listen, I
think I feel pretty safe in saying that I believe
those children, and I believe that those you know, Molly
told those children to lie, and there's only run reason
to do that, and that's a cover of tracks, right,
So I'm just gonna go with that. I feel like
(02:36):
the first you know, stint in jail was probably correct.
They probably should have stayed there. And I think that
the dad, you know, I think that was absolutely by design.
He's credible, right, former REFREEI jan he wouldn't do anything wrong,
would he, right, But he's still a dad. He would
do anything for his daughter. So I think it's hubris,
(02:57):
it's arrogance. A lot of people in those positions, rightfully,
so are fairly arrogant, rightfully, so you know, they don't
get to be those in those positions for being dummies,
right And you have.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
To be confident, confident, you know all of the above.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah, So I think I think it's a combination of
hubris and the fact that he knew he'd get away
with it and he did.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, he was funny. He was funny to me when
we had the prosecutor on last night, who was so fantastic.
You know, my burning question was about the dad and
he lied absolutely, Hold on, what did he have he
had a dinner. Well, yeah, but he had an uncomfortable
relationship with the truth that there was yess saying instead
(03:43):
of a liar. But he said, oh, you know, we
just decided to go down there and just decided to
bring the little league back. But I don't know. I
still maintain Dad didn't know this was going to go down.
I agree with that too. I do think if you
see someone attack provoked or not. You know, I do
think that the wife, Mollie, I do think that she
(04:06):
evoked a big reaction and created a ruckus.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You know, I mean, any dad is going to step
in at that at that moment, right. I do think
that he lied though about his reaction. I think it
was clearly overboard. He didn't hit him over the head
just one time. I mean it was several. All those
indentations in the walls of the bat, but you know
that's not one swing, and the indentation is is near
(04:31):
the floor, that's hitting somebody when right on the floor.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Right literally, the you know, the saying hitting someone when
they're down right, And the fact that neither of them
had any neither the Dad or Molly had any marks
on them except for that one that Molly had on
her neck barely, but it was there. It was barely visible.
And in the documentary it was brought up that it
(04:56):
could have you know, if allegedly what she's saying was true,
she was being choked right, that it could have been
either the victim's finger mark or.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Her own, like prying it off right, prying her correct.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, that's correct. So yeah, the dad, I think he thought, listen,
we're gonna stay cool, we're going to stay calm, We're
going to stick exactly to the script. And I think
he was probably very likely the mastermind of that, and
that also would add to why the victim's body was cold.
(05:29):
The ParaMed they waited a while. They even the paramedics
that said, hey, what time did they say this guy
went down? I think that's also when dad got the
wife to say that she stayed downstairs, never came up
and was asleep, because any human reaction would be to
have come upstairs. So I'm going to guess she probably
(05:50):
came up. Grandma was screaming that no one touched on
to doc. I don't know what do you think, Boddy,
do you think that she stayed down I.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Think it is possible that she stayed down there, I do.
I mean in the basement is far away from the
second floor. It's not like right above her. It's not
you know what I mean, like, it is possible. And listen,
I'm of age now and my hearing ain't that I think.
Ain't that great? You know, in my fifties now, Oh
my gosh, and you know it's my hearing just isn't
(06:20):
that great? So I do think it is possible that
mom did stay downstairs.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, So anyway, those are our thoughts. Great question, because
good question. It's hard to answer. That's a hard question
to answer. So thank you for the talk back. It's
really great.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
But I've got some headlines that we should probably get into.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So guess what.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
A week's long manhunt comes to an end. They caught him,
Austin Drummond, the Tennessee killer.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
He thank goodness.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So he is the man accused of killing four members
of the same family and left the baby in that
driveway of the stranger's home. We've been talking about this.
You all know, hopefully you know all about it, but
if you don't, he is response. Well, they're saying he's
responsible for the death of four individuals that were found
in an infant discovered abandoned in a front yard in
(07:09):
Dyer County, Tennessee. Along with Austin Drummond, four other individuals
have been apprehended in relation to these crime, although no
motive has been made public yet. So Austin Drummond a
little bit of background. He was in prison for a
really long time, like thirteen fourteen years, kind of like
his his entire adult life basically, because he went in
(07:32):
when he was seventeen, so he's been there. He's a
member of the Vice Lords and I do a little
bit of research on them today and they're known for
drug trafficking mainly, and that might come into play here.
We don't know, you know, what the situation is, and
it would be really unfair of me to speculate at
this point, but you know, it might be related to.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
The Vice Lords.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
His accomplices that have been arrested, the four others, so
five people in total had been arrested. They might be
members of this Vice Lord and he's you know, giving
the marching orders. We really just don't know. So he
was captured today by US Marshals after a construction crew
spotted him darting into the woods and I watched the
video today.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Did you see the video?
Speaker 5 (08:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I did not, and he yes.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
This construction worker that found him is so sweet. The
he was just very humble. He's like, well, I just
saw him, you know, running around, and so I called
the police and they came and they were here before
I hung up, and they were like, oh, you're a hero,
and he was like no, no, no, the police are
the heroes. He was just very, very humble, very sweet video.
So God bless him and we're so proud of him.
(08:44):
His name is Ricardo Contreras, and he helped bring an
end to this man hunt after reporting the sighting of
Austin Robert Rummond.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Good for you, good job for you. Yes, we're very
proud of you.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
So yeah, so he's been caught, and you know, now
people are kind of digging into him, right, people are
kind of digging into who is Austin Drummond. And I
think yesterday we had mentioned that his prison cell, he
had pizzas, he had potato chips, he had a stocked
shelf of non perishable items.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
He had so Rock vodka. There was this idea. So
I didn't see the video you were talking about, but
I did see some Facebook photos and it was of
drum And it was a couple of months before he
was released. He looked cozy. Oh it was TV streaming alcohol,
video games and he post pizza pizza and he wrote,
(09:37):
Sarraq almost home living it up till I get there
right like, I'll take a sirac and some piece.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
You see the surveillance video of okay, So they initially
saw him last night while we were on the air,
so we didn't get to report on it, but they
had a video of him, like on home surveillance, like
walking around.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Did you see this video? No, I missed that one
as well.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
He's literally walking around with a rifle, just hanging out,
and he's dressed in all camouflage. He's got a backpack
on and his rifle, this long rifle, scary looking rifle,
just walking around yet out last night. Yeah, I'll send
it to you. I'll text it to you. That is creepy, scary.
This guy's just worrying.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah. You know, this guy Drummond with his four accomplices.
He reminds me a little bit of that dopey dentist
in terms of embroiling all these people right after the
fact of the crime or during you know, or during
and or during the commission.
Speaker 6 (10:34):
Well.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
The big difference though, is that with a dope dentist,
he couldn't get anybody to work with him. But this
Austin guy, apparently he roped four others in with him,
which makes me think he has some kind of power
over them in some way, right, like some sort of
power dynamic that we don't know about yet. I'm sure
we're going to learn, but we just don't know about
it yet. So his possession of all these contraband in
(10:58):
the prison right because he had a phone, right, he's
making taking pictures of himself. He had pizza delivered. It's
in the takeout box.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
That is the rock. The vodka that is wild.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
It points to a lot of systemic failures and security,
don't you.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Write I was gonna say that's contraband? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Anyway, I mean, am I naive? I mean I listen.
I see prison videos on TikTok, and I see them
making dance videos in their cells and whatnot and showing
some of the things. And I guess I always thought
that was staged, but apparently it's not. It's very real.
I always thought it was staged.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I guess. So listen, I have one other This is
a really quick update, yes, and this is about the manhunt,
the one that is not yet closed. I'm so happy
that the Drummond one is. But this is the manhunt
that's actually intensifying, and it's for the army veteran who's
accused of fatally shooting those four people at the bar
(11:54):
in Montana. So listen, people are still looking for Michael
Paul Brand, so you should be on the lookout for him.
He's a former soldier. He's accused of fatally shooting four
people at the Owl Bar in Anaconda, which is a
small southwestern Montana town, and he was seen fleeing the scene.
(12:15):
He was bare foot, he was shirtless, and is now
believed to be armed and carrying survival gear stolen from
a second vehicle.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Oh so he broke into a car and stole survival gear.
So somebody just has survival gear in their car. How
lucky for him.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
How lucky for him, or he stole it and put
it in a car for himself. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, it's unfolding, So we'll keep you up to date.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
We have a very special guest on the show today
that it was actually inspired by a talkback. Here to
help us break down what we can learn from body
language in some major cases is Susan Constantine. She's a
leading authority in human behavior and deception detection. She's the
president of the Human Behavior Lab, has consulted on high
profile cases like Michael Jackson and Elizabeth Holmes, and has
(13:15):
trained law enforcement in legal teams across the country. She's
one of the most respected experts in her field. Welcome, Susan.
We're so glad to have you.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
Thank you for having me on Courtney.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
What case should we talk about with Susan first, because
we have no time to waste.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, Susan, we got a lot of cases to cover
with you that we want to so we'd love to
start with Brian Coberger and for just to catch anyone
up who hasn't been awake for the past while. Brian
Coberger he's a former criminal justice graduate student and he
pled guilty just last month to the murders of fatally
(13:53):
stabbing four University of Idaho's students to death, Kaylee Gonsalvez,
Madison Mogan, Xana and Ethan Chapin. Has happened in their
off campus rental home in Moscow, Idaho, and he is
in prison with four consecutive life sentences without parole, and
let him stay there. So, Susan, I understand that you
(14:16):
were part of a task force that helped law enforcement
to analyze his behavior early on. Is that right?
Speaker 7 (14:22):
Well, they've got that wrong. I thought the humor they
are mentioning the BTK. So I'm on the task force
for the BTK killer. But I analyzed buying pots body
language for all of the major networks, including port TV.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Great, what can you tell us? What can you tell
us about that?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Well?
Speaker 7 (14:41):
I think one thing that most people are so curious
about is his overall inner I analyzed him from the
very beginning when he was being pulled over multiple times
except those driving on the highway. It's really intense, prolonged,
you know, facial affect, that stare unblinking, that kind of
(15:04):
predatory gaze. It was really off putting to most people.
Then trying to figure out what's going on here. And
so what I share with people is that we have
to understand a little bit about his background too, right,
so we know that he has some form of aspergers.
As writers generally have a difficult time emoting and also
(15:24):
reading emotions. So let's kind of shelf that to the side. Also,
he has a form of paranoia. That's where you're do
you see where his eyes are more fixated. They're very open,
they don't blink very much, and so that in a
sense can be part of the predatory gaze because they're
highly concentrating. The lack of facial affect is that detachment,
(15:48):
that emotional detachment. He doesn't show the normal morphine of real,
you know, true emotions. He's got this very flax still
on expression, this cold, icy appearance, which is what we
can we look at for people that are more like
sociopaths and psychopaths, and he meets all of the criteria.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And then some like all of them, Yeah, all of them.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So, Susan, I don't know if you extended sort of
your analysis to the father in the car and what
Susan's referring to is that infamous cross country drive that
Brian Koberger took with his father from Washington State to
Pennsylvania and they were pulled over twice, as Susan mentioned,
(16:37):
did you look at the father's reaction. If so, did
you have any takeaways from him?
Speaker 7 (16:43):
Sure. I mean when we're looking at the completely different right,
I mean he's leaning his head back. You see his
kind of mouth open up in surprise, like why are
you you know, why are you pulling this over? He
has a little bit of kind of an abnormal affect
of south so that you know, it doesn't the apple
doesn't fall far from the tree, but he doesn't show
(17:04):
this really coldness. What's interesting is that he immediately brought
up about the murders that had happened, and he had
said that there were some college students that were shot,
and then Brian Coburger jumps in and goes, well, you
don't know that, so he corrected his father. But when
we see Brian Kolberger in that situation another time when
(17:26):
he was pulled over himself by a female police officer,
and he's always so quick to correct right, to reprimand
to test the waters, and he's always got to be
the smartest one in the room. So I thought that
was really interesting that he leaned forward while his father
(17:47):
was trying to answer the police officer when they're pulled over.
But again he had that very stiff, frozen expression, eyes
wide open, no affect. And then when he said, you
don't know that that was a clue. Why would he
say that if you didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
This is true crime.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm body Moven and I'm here with
Courtney Armstrong and body language expert Susan Constantine. We're talking
about what we can learn from body language of different
alleged convicted killers and what we want to hear from you.
Give us a call at eighty eight thirty one crime
or hit us on the talk back seas in the
iHeartRadio app Susan, how did you interpret his reactions to
(18:28):
the victims' families in court during sentencing when they were
getting their victim impact statement.
Speaker 7 (18:32):
Well, he certainly did move. He stayed very stiff and
frozen on expressionless. But there are some little micro leakages
that did appear that if you weren't really trained in
reading the micro leakages, you would have missed it. So
there were moments where when he became agitated, especially of
(18:57):
the sister who was she just actually I called it
just a mic drop, right, she just came right out,
I'm confident and powerful, and you could see these little
rapid eye blinks.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Right.
Speaker 7 (19:09):
Yes, this is like where he's getting punched, right, So
he doesn't show it in the facial expressions, but you
can see it in the cognitive load with his eye blinking.
So every time he was taking a hit, you could
see that flutter flu want I want.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
People listening, I want people listening to this to go
and rewatch that and listen to what Susan's saying. Because
he even I, the amateur, you know, idiot, was like,
oh my gosh, his eyes are blinking, like because he
never blinks, and he was constantly blinking, and I was like, that's.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Got to be something.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
So go watch that and then and keep Susan's words
in your head when you do so, it's very interesting. Wow.
So those are like micro Those are like micro leakages you.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
Called those, Yeah, they're micro leakages. These are what I'm
looking for, are these uncontrolled, unconscious movements. So in other words,
he hasn't had time to hear what to process what
was said and then adjust his behavior. Okay, there's this
immediate this is unconscious. So when he has these comments
(20:18):
that were made that were very strong, there was also
a little micro head nods like almost as if he
was agreeing with her. Yeah, and that's you know, and
it's really interesting because I'm wondering based on his psychopathy,
because I think he's actually a test model to understand
what's going on that I almost think that there's a
form of that. He actually enjoyed that, so he was
(20:43):
acknowledging it. It was like almost a confirmation he did
that he was successful in doing what he did. And
the cognitive low free time that she hit a sensitive point.
That's when you start to see the flutter. So that's
what we call cognitive low.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And Susan, I'm not sure. Because there were so many
victim statements because these four children were so beloved. There
was an ant who she had sort of a different
purview than the other folks, and she said to the killer, Brian,
I want you to know I forgive you, and if
you ever want to speak to someone with no judgment,
(21:21):
I'm here from you. And similar to body, I as
a total amateur human looking at it, that was the
first time he actually looked like you would almost I
guess how you'd expect a human to react like I
noticed him sort of nod his head. Did you have
any observations on his reaction to that? Ant?
Speaker 7 (21:42):
Sure? Remember when we talked about just those little microls
are so tiny that again you'd miss them. You would
see his facial muscles around his eyes and especially around
his eyes, around his mouth and his upper forehead. Those
are where he holds a lot of tension, and you'll
see those muscles slightly release, just ever so little, and
(22:06):
that's what softened his overall aspect just a little bit.
But that's about as far as Brian Coburger can go,
because he doesn't feel emotion like natural humans do. He
just doesn't. He's vacant and void of any of that.
And he's actually said that and some of his blogs
(22:30):
and so forth. He just doesn't feel it. He doesn't
feel emotion. He doesn't feel like with other people. And
that's true, but you couple that with the aspergers, which
also doesn't read emotions well and doesn't emote the correct emotions,
and the psychopathy is literally he is a cocktail of
(22:50):
all kinds of psychological disorders and it's all in one clump,
and you can see it play out in real life
in his body language.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Wow, So do you see this is kind of off
topic a little bit, but do you see like this
needs to be studied in my opinion, like his behavior.
Speaker 7 (23:08):
Don't you think, Oh, I absolutely positively do.
Speaker 8 (23:12):
I think he is.
Speaker 7 (23:13):
I really do. In fact, I think he's like a
doctor aman, you know, clinic patient. He really needs to
understand what is firing in his brain, you know, what's
lighting up, what's in amigula, what's happening in the prefrontal
frontal lobe. We need to learn about this new psychopathy
(23:34):
that we're seeing a lot of, and that to me
is really becoming very disturbing because we're seeing more and
more and more of this, and it's like, what is
it that they're opening the door to watch? What are
they opening the door to see and to study that
it's creating this fascination as a detachment, emotional detachment of
(23:56):
seeing violent behaviors over and over again to where they
lose that natural sense of empathy, and then you continue
to do it for so long you don't have anymore.
So they can do what they've done with absolutely no guilt,
no remorse, and no emotion at all.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I'm fascinated. So please stand by more with body language
expert Susan Constantine, we're going to be talking about Luigi
Mandion and Karen Reid and what you should know to
protect yourself. And in the second hour we're talking about
the judge's latest decision in Diddy's request for.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Cold Later in the show, we're going to be talking
about the controversial death row execution. It took place today
in Tennessee. And of course we will be responding to
(24:50):
all of your talkbacks for Talkback Tuesday. Again, there's still
time to leave us one tonight or give us a
call eight at eight three to one. Crime. Right now,
we're coming back with body language experts Susan Constantine. So listen,
she's the real deal. She is a leading authority in
human behavior and deception detection. She is someone you did
(25:12):
not want there when you've broken curfew, I would imagine
and listen. She's got over twenty years of experience, one
of the absolute most respected experts in the field, and
we're getting back into it. Body What is the next
case that you want to ask Susan about.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I want to talk about Luigi So Luigi Mangione. He's
a twenty six year old Ivy League graduate. He's been
charged with the December fourth, twenty twenty four killing of
United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson outside of a Manhattan hotel.
He has pled not guilty on all counts, including he's
being charged by the New York State and those charges
(25:53):
carry potential life imprisonment and the federal charges that carry
the possibility of the death penalty. Mandion has garnered what
like substantial public support, raising over a million dollars in
crowdfunded legal contributions, and has been lauded as kind of
like a hero who stood up against greed of the
healthcare industry.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So do you know about Luigi Season?
Speaker 7 (26:17):
Yes, I do know about Louiegan.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
That's when he was.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
They didn't know who he was even prior to finding
out his identity. When I was shown a video, I
can't remember what TV station it was on that I
was on, maybe it was Fox. And when I reviewed
the video, I said, wait a minute. This guy is
not six foot tall as the police had previously set
(26:45):
as a profile, and they didn't really know too much
about other than that, And I said, listen, this guy
is not six foot tall. He's under six foot tall.
He's slender built. The other photograph that was given, which
is where he was in the coffee shop and he
was smiling he'sy gregarious. I said, this is a guy
(27:06):
that people like. He can walk right up to him.
He's very he has got a great personality. I'm sure
he's very well liked. He's probably got lots of friends.
And he said, this is not your typical killer. This
guy is a good looking guy. I said, And with
his bushy eyebrows and deep set eyes and chisel jawline
and square chin, he's Italian and so yeah, and so
(27:29):
it wasn't. But just maybe a few hours after that,
it was announced that the shooter name was Luigi Mangioi.
And I said, see, I told you he was Italian.
But you know, and I have to give you a
little caveat I'm Italian, just spent two weeks in it.
Like so I was looking at those big booshy eyebrows
(27:50):
and deep set eyes, and Jim, we'll face for two weeks.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Right and hopefully eating good pizza along the way.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yes, Wow, So you you helped identify him. Basically you
told them, no, you're not looking for the right the right.
Speaker 7 (28:06):
Well, you know how you can tell when he was
walking down the street, what do we see? We have
cars parked, you know, we have a building we have windows,
and then you measure the height. I did some calculation
on what is the height of that specific car, and
then measured just where his head was just above it.
(28:28):
So I said, this guy is like five foot ten, wow,
And sure enough that's what he was, and then you
could tell what is his I do a lot of work,
In fact, I've got like a couple of cases I'm
working on right now to try to identify a person's
by their gate, their movement, their stride and all that.
We all have specific behavioral characteristics that are our own.
(28:51):
Like if your husband or your partner saw you walking
down the street and go, oh, that's so and so
you know that's my wife. It's because you know they're
their movement and their stride, the way they moved their
hands in their arms. So all of these things that
were able signature behavioral characteristics. So when you're looking for
a suspect, these are things to point out and point
(29:13):
them out so that when somebody's watching a news sit
these are the signatures you should be looking at to
see if you know someone liked.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
That, right.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
I remember the Delphi case the bridge guy. The gate
was a massive sticking point, and then in Sacramento there
was a guy shooting homeless people and he had a
strange gait and that came into play as well. Yes,
that's really interesting that you can recognize all those things
that with body language.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I never thought of that.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
Well, there was a killer that was in Tampa that
was doing something very similar to people walked right up
in a bang just killed them. And that was another
one that I analyzed, provided the profile and the characteristics,
and based on those characteristics they were able to call
or called in and said that this is a person
that looked like some of it with Adam McDonald's just
(30:01):
like Luis DEIMANNGIONI sure enough it was him, and that
goes behavior will six theture what got him off the street.
And he was a young serial murderer and based on
a gate movement, he was flipping his keys around in
his hands as he was walking down the street so nonchalantly.
All of those things are important to identify because they're different,
(30:23):
they're unique to them.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Interesting. It sounds almost like fingerprints. And I can remember
distinctly in college I needed glasses and didn't wear them,
but I would know from far away I could pick
my friends out just by watching how they walked. So interesting.
I guess we all have a little of that that
we're aware of subconsciously. Listen, if you have as many
(30:46):
questions as we do for Susan, give us a call.
We are at eighty eight three to one crime. We
are talking about the importance of body language and Susan
is the real deal expert. I feel like some jures
may possibly be more sympathetic to Mangio And is that
something you've mentioned.
Speaker 7 (31:05):
Sure, yes, So that's one of the things that we're
looking at, is during nullification, because there is a large
community of people, just like in the Karen Reid case,
that almost they connect with her. But you know, in
other words, with Karen Reid, it was you know, they
don't trust police. With Luigimiandoni, it's corporate America, and there's
(31:26):
a lot of people that tend to follow and believe
like he does. They see him as more some of them,
not all, but they they see him as someone that
is speaking on their behalf. So we're concerned about during
nullification because meaning that even though all the evidence would
point to his guilt, that just because they felt that
(31:49):
what he did was not wrong, they can nullify their
own vote and he could walk away free.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Right, What does the seething look and what is tell
you something that you kind of also noticed in Coburger?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (32:04):
Seating? Okay, the seating Brian. All right, let's back up,
because we didn't see it in Brian Coberger. But I
was talking about that before an attack, the victim will
see these behavioral signatures of what we call imminent threat. Okay,
they will be it's imminent that they are going to
(32:25):
be attacked and killed. Okay, So when we saw me
and geone, we saw the lack, the loss of emotional control.
Right when when you see their face flush, you saw
the all of his teeth, they were all showing.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
It was like.
Speaker 7 (32:39):
A you know, a bulldog or something, and it was
just in a rage sense. That's when you see the
loss of emotional control. The furrowed eyebrows, the eyebrows come down,
the eyes become very fixated. And then the even though
the mouth the teeth are showing, the lips are very tight.
(32:59):
That is the attack mode. That's the imminent attack. Just
prior to that, it is starting to morph before they
lose the emotional control. So when we see coburger. We
don't see him in the same place. What I was
stating to one of their producers prior to the show
is that before he attacked the girls, that's what they
(33:22):
would have seen. That is what they would have seen
because prior to that, there is a rehearsal part, a
planning part, and then the execution part. So there is
a none of these killings that happened just out of
the blue. There is a process. If you understand a
lot about serial killers and a lot of doctor Burgess's work,
(33:45):
you'll see how they morph into it. There's a process
is to where they get there, and part of their
process is the excitement and the fascination to getting to
that point. So they've played it over and over and
over again in their mind. That's why they don't show
a lot of that level of motion right before, because
they're calculated. So it's right before it when they start
(34:06):
to lose the emotional control that you actually see that seeding,
that anger, that that detachment, that animal like type of behavior.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah, So that's we need we need to watch out
for that. We need to watch out for that gaze.
Speaker 7 (34:22):
Oh yeah, that gaze where it's just you know, when
people would describe a person, they'll say their eyes were
like black as coal, like there wasn't anybody there. That's scary. Yeah,
you know, And that's what's so frightening is what those
four you know, college students saw, or what a person
sees right before that. I mean, it just is you
(34:45):
don't even want to even feel what they felt then
because it's so horrifying, but that's what they experience.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Wow's interesting? Now, is this seizing something that we would
see in our own lives, So just in personal lives.
So taking gross criminals and by gross I mean you know,
very big criminals off the table for a second, are
there dangerous signs we should sort of look out for
in our own life?
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Sure, when we're looking at those dangerous behavioral signatures, whether
it depends only we're not this not a killer, could
be someone that's been a sexual assault, or someone that's
trying to the predator that's trying to get close to you,
to get to your children or to you to you know,
(35:34):
violate you. You know, there's that grooming process that very charismad,
They very likable. In fact, I'm writing a book and
I wrote it as you and I I never met
a murderer I didn't like. And it's because some of
them can really turn on the charm big time. But
the minute you go against or speak against, or are
not participating in whatever it is, they will change. And
(36:00):
New York second on.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
You, Susan, before you have to go, and we have
a really short segment. We've only got a few minutes.
What can you quickly tell us about your observations about
Karen Reid? And for those who don't know Karen Reid,
she's a forty four year old financial analyst and former professor.
She was tried for killing her Boston police officer boyfriend
John O'Keefe, but she was recently acquitted. And you know,
(36:24):
she had some she had kind of like a cold
fish demeanor in court.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, she got a lot of criticism. What can you
tell us about that.
Speaker 7 (36:31):
Susan, Well, she did, she was She had a very
cold demeanor that between the smirks, the eye rolls, and
the contempt facial expressions and also the talking back and
forth of this attorney, a lot of that in the
flipping the hair back, a lot of smongness that she showed.
But I think that what happened over time, just like
the Casey anthonydraw and I saddle all the way through
(36:52):
that one and reported on it, is that when you're
looking at someone for a long time, they start to
really air off on you, and meaning that they started
to connect with her, especially one of the female jurors said,
the smugness and the dislike that she had, she actually
liked about her after a while and found that her
confidence was more intoxicating, right, That was more convincing to
(37:15):
her that she was innocent than guilty. So it's interesting
how jurors interpret what we see. You know, it's not
always what we think is the heroal analysts, because it
really depends on that twelve panel jury and what they
see and it could be totally different.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
That is so interesting. And I have a question for you, Susan.
Do you take into account where someone is from? And
I asked, because I'm from the Northeast most of the
people that I know the best are and her asfect
seemed very quote normal to me, like she So how
does that come into play?
Speaker 7 (37:54):
Well, because those that are like her will resonate with
her because it'll be familiar if it was unfamiliar.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
If you know that.
Speaker 7 (38:03):
Let's if it's a New Jersey or Boston me that
kind of rough, gross, kind of demeanor. You know, you
take that and you's down south, it's going to be different, right,
So you know, when you're selecting a jury, that's really
important because we look at those demographic factors. What are
the similar demographics of what we're looking for the world
best that will be less dangerous to our client, be
(38:26):
unbiased and give her, you know, the benefit of the doubts.
So people that are like you tend to vote more
like you.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
So she was being tried like in Georgia or like
Louisiana or even California, there might have been a different
response from the jury because they might have perceived her
kind of like I do. I'm from the West Coast
and I perceived her as pretty cold, but you know,
being frying Boston, I might be like, she's.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Just a normal chick. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a
ton of sense. And thank god she didn't get tried
in California then.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
That would have been that would have been good. Well, Susan,
we're hoping very much that you will come back, particularly
I can't wait to talk about the book. Can you
just give us the title and where we're sure at
the end of time. What's the title?
Speaker 7 (39:15):
Yeah, it's going to be coming out penning out of
twenty twenty six. It's called How to Spot a Liar
in Seven Seconds or Less.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I need that book immediately. Yeah, absolutely, well, listen, Susan,
We thank you very much for joining us. It has
been an absolute pleasure and fascinating. You've shed light on
so many things. And if you want to know more
about Susan or to contact her, her website is Susan Constantine.
Just how it sounds s U s A N C
(39:44):
O N S T A N T I n E
dot com and keep it here True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Later it's talk Back Tuesday, you guys. I am so
excited for Talkback Tuesday. I cannot wait to hear all
the questions and all the comments that you guys have.
We have not listened to them prior to so it's
going to be literally talk back Roulette. We're going to
have to be on our game Courtney. All right, all right, right,
so let's hear talk back now. Let's get us warmed up.
Speaker 8 (40:22):
Okay, fair, Hi, Courtney, Stephanie and Body is Ainsley calling
again from Canada.
Speaker 7 (40:28):
Ainsley, I was just wondering if.
Speaker 9 (40:30):
You guys could share what your podcast recommendations are. I
know we talked a lot about what's on the streaming services,
but I'd love to hear what you ladies are listening to.
Thanks and looking forward to listening to you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Bye, Thank you, Ainsley.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I want to go to Canada, dude. Listen.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Canada is probably the best place ever. Like I've been
there many times. I tried to leave and go to Canada.
I actually did. They were like, no, I love Canada
and I love Canadians. I do well as of this show,
so too do I.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
I couldn't have said that.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
I have a special place in my heart, and I
think it's because of the Lucas stuff and all the
stuff I went through in Canada. And plus I was
born in Detroit. I could literally look out my window
and see Canada across the Detroit River winds Canada, and
we would go over there all the time.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
It's a great country, like Sarah Pale and how she
could see Alaska. Yes, it's literally like that podcast. What
podcasts are you listening to?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Courtney.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, I Betrayal and yeah, that is excellent, so good, compelling, surprising, heartfelt.
It's really really great and we're actually we'll be talking
more about it. We'll leave it there, but Betrayal. This
is not a new one, but S Town is maybe
(41:50):
my favorite podcast I've ever listened to. I'd call it
true crime. Adjay statement, Yeah, but it's beautiful and not
in a happy way. It's s Town excellent. And I'll
throw one more out there, a true crime one. And
this is also reaching back. I was kind of what
(42:12):
really resonated me. It's called a Killing on the Cape
and I used to set my watch. This was literally
years ago, and I forget when it dropped, but I
would be like, oh my god, it's gonna come out
right now. And the storytelling is unbelievable. The crime is
you're guessing the whole time and it's really really well told.
So those and then for a new one. One more
(42:35):
is My Friend Daisy, which you should check it out.
So I got.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Well, mine are not true crime, well, they might be
true crime adjacent, but the ones I've been listening to
a lot are It's called Breadcrumbs by Trace Labs and
it's all about like open source investigations, and you know,
that's something that I'm super into, so I guess it's
kind of true crime adjacent. But they talk about a
lot of like the ocent tools, the open source investigation tools,
(43:03):
to use the terminology, how to pivot correctly in your investigations,
and how to you know, critically think about things and
you know, access data points that you really have to
work hard to access.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It's a really, really, really great podcast. I really like it.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
And going along with that, I also really like the
Cyber Sluice Show, and he has a really good community.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
It's really great. He's got like a really great discord
or YouTube.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Channel, and I really like that one a lot, and
it talks a lot about the same topics, you know,
researching things on your own and how not to get
caught up in the noise, and it's it's very good
and I like them both. The other one I really
like is my friend Christian Marciano. She has a podcast
called Worth the Weight, and it's going through her weight
(43:52):
loss journey with her girlfriend, her friend, and they talk about,
you know, their relationships and how men perceive them losing weight.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
It's very good and check out interesting, Okay, like it's.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
All right, what a great question though it's surprising though,
like the ones, Oh the other one, Oh my god,
I'm so silly, the whole massacre.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Of course, of course I listened to that. I'm on it.
I gotta listen. Indeed, I happened to know the voice
of that and the insights you bring. So there will
be much more. There will be season three. I just
did a rick.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
I just did a session, uh for season three, and
we were on for like three hours.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Listen, there's a lot, there's a lot to talk about.
So that is in process as we as we speak.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
So now we're going to cover some of today's top
true crime headlines, right Courtney, what have you been working on?
Speaker 10 (44:42):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
All right, So in Tennessee, a man has been executed.
He was an inmate named Byron Black, and claims were
ignored that his implanted defibrillator could cause unnecessary and prolonged
pain and duration of the execution. He was executed for
(45:03):
a shooting back in nineteen eighty eight, and it was brutal.
It was for the death of his girlfriend and her
two daughters, and that happened while he was actually on
work release. But bottom line, this man did suffer multiple
serious health issues. He did have that implanted defibrillator, and
(45:24):
it led to a contentious debate over whether it should
be deactivated before his execution, which I feel like, regardless
of where you fall on the spectrum of you know,
lethal injection or death penalty in general, I don't know.
I think we can all agree that we can take
out something that's going to add the even potentially add
(45:47):
the extra pain. So there was a lot of back
and forth, but that is where it ended. So that's that.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Yeah, I do have feelings about that. I do think
it's you know, I don't like when the governments or
you know, like somebody in power, let's say, has the
you know ability to you know, inflict torture, you know,
and I think that if it could have been torture, is.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Just remove it. I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I guess I just don't understand well. In other news,
a judge has granted Luigi Mangione a laptop to access
in jail so he can prepare for his pending trial. Luigimangione,
of course, he has been accused of murdering health United
Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in December of last year. He
has been held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn
(46:32):
and he awaits trial. The prosecutors alleged that the killing
was politically motivated, citing a manifesto found on Mangion after
his rest days later. It was like five days later
in Pennsylvania. So this federal judge approved Mangione's request for
access to his government prepared laptop y in jail. He
can use the laptop every single day, eight o'clock to
(46:54):
four pm, seven days a week. The device is restricted
from the Internet, wireless networks, and printing, and it only
allows him access to his case related to materials. And
it's my understanding that it's like seven terabytes worth of
materials that he'll have access to.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
It's pretty interesting.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
So it's basically all his all his discovery. And yeah,
you know so, and this is apparently to get him
prepared for his trial coming up.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I mean, listen, that makes a lot more sense, you know,
to have to have a device that your counsel has
requested to assist in his own defense.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Right, And I know it's not really the norm though,
It's not really the norm for inmates to be given
this privilege. I mean, this is a privilege, but it's
not unheard of either. Courts are illegally obligated to ensure
the defendants can participate meaningfully in their own defense, and
this is going to help him do that.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, and you know, this government approved or whatever the
verbage was, laptop seems a lot more reasonable than pizza
delivery and Sarah, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
I unbelievable. I still can't believe that guy. I hope, listen,
I hope Austin Drummond does not get the same privileges
that he had.
Speaker 9 (48:10):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I like to imagine a future where he does not. Yeah,
that is my hope, and that is I'm going to
just put it out put it out there as a wish. Listen,
if you have any opinions on what you think prisoners
should or should not. Should prisoners have pizza, Maybe I'm wrong,
pizza and soak.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
It wasn't pizza though, no, I was delivery.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
It was not to journo. Listen, if you have an opinion,
give us a call eight eight eight to three one
crime or send us a talkback and we will shortly
be getting to multiple talkbacks after the headlines. But I've
got another one for you body, and I got to
(48:53):
hand it to Diddy's legal team. The it was ten
one point. I'm not sure where we are, but the
judge has denied him bail for the fifth time, so
his legal team has applied five times. So give it
to them for persistence. And this is all ahead of
(49:14):
his October third sentencing hearing, of course, did he was convicted.
This was last month and it was on kind of
the smallest charges that he had been charged with. It
was charge of transportation to a gauge in prostitution. And
he has been held for coming up on a year.
It'll be a year very soon, and that's at the
(49:35):
Brooklyn Metropolitan Detention Center with Luigi. That's right, Yeah, that's right.
But so they I guess the denials keep coming, as do.
I wonder if they'll ask again. I don't know, but
the judge has been clear and cited clear and convincing
evidence that Combs posed a risk of flight or danger
(49:57):
to the community.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
And so we learned yesterday that victim number three, Combs's
ex girlfriend again, she was identified as victim number three.
She wrote a letter supporting bail. So apparently this letter
didn't have any sway with the judge at all.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
Right, Well, I think it was also counterbalanced by previous
letters that we know from other victims. Although this woman
did not testify victim number three because again at the
time of the trial, she was quote unreachable by the attorneys.
But I think the judge stayed with what they said
at the beginning, which was, you know that he is
(50:39):
a danger and that the victims felt concerned.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Well, I have another piece of news, this first time.
This one's kind of wild, and we don't have a
lot of time, but I'm going to go very quickly. Yeah, Bill,
this I was not expecting this. Bill and Hillary Clinton
have reportedly been subpoenaed by the House Oversight Committee in
connection to the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
What so, Yeah, so there.
Speaker 3 (51:04):
The House Oversight Committee is investigating connections to Jeffrey Epstein
and Glaine Maxwell, focusing on you know, potential involvement of
prominent political and law enforcement figures. And as part of
this probe, former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of
State Hillary Clinton have been subpoena to give depositions. So
the committee chair, Rep. James Comer from Kentucky he's a
(51:28):
Republican out of Kentucky. He's leaving the subpoenas. Other people
that have been subpoena include former FBI director James Comy
and Robert Mueller.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Interesting, right, it's interesting, And I got to say, I'm
surprised by your surprise. I think anyone would want to
depose the Clintons. You think, yes, of course I do
on opposing you know, I think any Democrats would would
like the opportunity to depose Republicans and so to get
(52:00):
them in. And we know that Bill Clinton has been
tied to Epstein. So right, and we are getting back
into it. We can't say it enough. It is our
absolute favorite part of the week. It is talkback Tuesday.
Literally excited for real.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Yes, And I know Sam and Adam are two in
the control room because they're going to keep us on
Johnny on the spot here.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Right, Well, they're a little drunk with power because they're
they're literally dishing out, you know, the questions we get.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Adam is literally giving me the evil I don't.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah, yeah, how can we stump the hosts? I think
we call it talkback Tuesday. They call it stump the hosts. Right,
and by the way, when we say talkbacks, we're also
including voicemails, yes, and dms as well, because we read them,
we listen to them, we use them all and you know,
it really does help us shape the show. We've said
that before, but it is there have been multiple like
(52:51):
earlier this evening when we had our body language expert
on that was because of a talkbacker. So you know,
thank you. Okay, let's get into our first us. Wait.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
Hold on, I'm I'm kind of scared. I'm not gonna lie.
Adam literally is giving me the evil eye.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
I'm a little a little bit, but I'm excited. Totally
normal talk back. It's just the same as all the others.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Okay, all right, you say, so let's hear it.
Speaker 4 (53:17):
Hello, this is Steve from Greater New Orleans area. You
all were talking tonight. This past showed about the uh,
I forget how you phrased it, the dark tours like
the Jim Jones and so forth. But when you think
about one, I've been on the Jack the Ripper tours.
You don't get much more gruesome than that. And look,
(53:40):
well over a century people have been going to it's
maybe one hundred and fifty yar I's get when they
exactly happened, but people have been going paying good money
left and right for those tours, so it's shifts. I
don't know if it's a deep factor night, but it's
part of human nature to want to somehow receive those scenes. Anyway,
thank you. It was fantastic. Oh wait, it's just really awesome.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
I think he's probably listening on voodoo, right Voodoo. We
learned that from our friend Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
Yeah, I went on that Jack the ripertre Thank you
for the talk back. By the way, I went on
that Jack the repertorire when I went to cron Con
UK twenty twenty one, and it was fantastic. I was
exhausted by the end of it because it's a lot
of walking, but it is fantastic and I think he's
right there is you know, there is part of human
nature that wants to kind of explore the dark and
(54:33):
ceedy with with the you know, the ability to remain safe. Right, Like,
I know I'm on a tour and I know grewsome
things happened here and you know at this particular spot,
let's say, on the street. But I know that I'm
completely safe right now. And I think there's it's very
attractive to a lot of people, I think, and including
me absolutely.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
And yeah, Steve, thank you so much. I'd love a
New Orleans accent so much, it really but you know,
I think you're exactly right. And this is peripheral. But
I worked for many years. I did about eighty episodes
of a par and normal show and what it was called,
it was called My Ghost Story ran on the Biography channel. Anyway.
(55:18):
It was people and and a lot of a lot
of the stories it was people's personal stories, and a
lot of it had to do with going to you know,
the Lizzie Borden House or a specific in addition to
stuff that happened in their own homes. But there was
it's kind of the crossover in terms of the history.
In terms of what are the dark stories of this,
(55:39):
it was Getty's Bird. Oh, you know, war fields and stuff,
and it really it combines stuff and I think body
like you said, of also knowing you're safe while getting
too it's yeah, yeah, it's it's humanatu.
Speaker 3 (55:54):
It's like it's like going to something dangerous without actually
being in danger, you know, kind of like how people
go to those parachuting buildings where they can simulate skydiving.
They're not really in danger, but they get the feeling
of the skydiving, you know what I mean. Like it's
kind of like, listen, it's kind of like that in
my head. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can walk down
(56:17):
the streets that Jack the Ripper was hunting people and
still be safe.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (56:23):
Yeah, I don't know' that's my attraction at least. It's
it's like kind of like living on the edge but
still being an old grandma and not having to actually
really be in danger. I'm all about that. That's like me,
you know what I mean. Anyway, thank you see so much.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
For the talkback. What we are next? What's next? Light
us up? Adam.
Speaker 11 (56:39):
Hi guys, I really enjoyed your coverage last night of
the Canon Barbie Killers. I just have a question on
whether or not you think that Paul Bernardo and Carla
Hamolco would have been capable of committing these crimes on
their own if they wouldn't have met one another.
Speaker 10 (56:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 11 (56:55):
I'm really curious to see what you guys think. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (56:58):
Yeah. Wow, So I got a lot of feedback about
the canon Barbie, especially from Courtney. She was like, man,
that was rough to listen to. It's a rough story.
Would they have been so Paul Bernardo was in fact
the Scarsboro rapist prior to meeting Carla. So yes, I
think Paul was already you know, experimenting in you know,
(57:21):
violent and deviant behavior and possibly would have continued down
that road and escalated to murder without Carla. But I
don't know if Carla would have. I think Carla basically
my opinion of Carla is that she sort of morphed
into whoever Paul.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
Wanted her to be.
Speaker 3 (57:42):
Do you know what I mean? I don't think Carla.
I think she's a psychopath one hundred percent. But I
think she's a psychopath because she's just gonna pairrot whoever
she's with.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
And do you think, because I believe you had said
that in some of the videos that she was directing him,
directing him, Yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
In some of the videos, she's teasing the sus you know,
the victims, she's making fun of them, she's directing Paul
on what to do next, you know, telling them to
shut up, making sure the blindfolds are tight.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
You know things like that.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
But again I think I listen, I'm not a psychologist,
all right, but.
Speaker 2 (58:20):
I had to read.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
Oh I didn't have to, but in part as part
of what I was working on, I learned a lot
about her and I got the impression and I would
actually kind of like to talk to somebody about this
at one point that she was just really parroting whoever
she's with. So she was if she's right now, she's
with her lawyer's brother, and I think she's, you know,
parroting being a professional parent. I don't think I think
(58:43):
she's a psychopath underneath, though she just parrots who's ever
she's with, all right, by herself, though, I don't think
she would have done anything unless she hooked up with
another psycho. That's just my opinion. I'm not a professionalist,
and don't listen to.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Me, no, but listen the question and was asking opinions.
That's right, that's right, it is if you want to
join us eighty eight to three to one crime. This
is true crime tonight. And we are in the middle
of talk Back Tuesday, and let's just pop right into
another one at NEUS.
Speaker 10 (59:16):
Hey, guys, so I know you've been talking about a
bunch of man hunts recently, and I was just wondering
why you think there's been an increase in these violent fenders.
Speaker 9 (59:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:25):
It's tough. I don't know the answer, but we have
been thinking about it, you know, the crime because man hunts.
I don't know if people are choosing more sort of
secluded areas. Although Mangione, who was last year, that was
you know, it doesn't he was on the run for
five days. He was on the run for five days,
and that was in the most one of the more
(59:46):
congested places on planet Earth. But a lot of these
other ones are in rural places. I mean, one commonality
that I've seen, not in all, but in several of
these multitude is better and status. And it honestly makes
me wonder about if people there's an uptick in decreased
(01:00:07):
mental health care, specifically for veterans. So I don't know,
it's something we want to look into, because I agree
it seems more prevalent.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
It does seem more prevalent. And you know, there's also
like the we just had the Maan hunt in New
Orleans for all the prisoners that escape us. So you know,
there's those kinds of man hunts too, right, and then
there was like that Daniello cavocante out of Pennsylvania that
went on for several weeks as well. You know, I
think I think there's always been man hunts. I think
(01:00:38):
we're living in a different world right now where there's
a twenty four hour news cycle and this is very
popular coverage to cover, right So, like you have social
media influencers covering these things. Now you have of course,
you know, mass media, you know, uh covering this and
on a bigger scale. So I think we're just hearing
(01:00:59):
about do you know what I mean? Like, I feel
like I feel like it's just more popular because people
are riveted by these stories, right So, and I also,
in combination with what Courtney said too though about them
the ones that we've been following recently kind of been
happening happening in like really isolated areas so that people
have a chance to get away. And I think that
(01:01:20):
has a big part in it too. But that was
a really good question and really kind of hard to answer.
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah, but thank you, thank you keep us thinking. Definitely
stuffed the host on that one. Yeah, what have we
got next.
Speaker 12 (01:01:30):
Out of them?
Speaker 13 (01:01:30):
I listened to the Kenon Barbie episode you just had
on How does the videotapes not knock out the plea
I thought in lea deals, if you're found guilty or
getting bad information, that is no longer.
Speaker 6 (01:01:45):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
So, yeah, that was a good question, he asked. It
was kind of hard to hear. He asked, why Carla
was able to, you know, still plea. You know, the
videos were found of her torturing these victims and participating
in the murders of Paul Bernardo. Answers really simple, so,
but it's infuriating. The tapes changed everything, right, But they
(01:02:07):
were found after the plea deal had been finalized and
was legally binding, and she had already testified against Paul Bernardo.
It's almost like double jeopardy at that point. Now this
is Canada, it's a completely different country. The same thing applies.
She couldn't be tried again, you know what I mean.
She couldn't be tried again. She already confessed, she got
(01:02:27):
a manslaughter charge, she got a sentence, everything was already done,
it was legally binding. And now the country was completely
outraged by this. They called it's the deal with the Devil,
I think is what they called it. But because it
was legally binding, there's something they could do. Like the
prosecutors were like they were upset too, but again they
(01:02:48):
couldn't charge her. She already pled couldn't do it that
like Brian Coberger right now could say, yeah, I did it,
and it was you know, but there's something you can do.
He's already been sentenced in charge and everything you can do.
Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
It's tough. I think that's one of those cases where
the exception almost proves the rule, because my knee jerk is,
let's take it away, and you know, if you find
anything after a plea, but then nothing would be binding,
ever exactly, and it would just be chaotic.
Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
She fulfilled the details of her plea agreement her. The
details were that she was to testify against Paul Bernardo,
and she had already doubled that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
So she fulfilled her right.
Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
And all right, Adam, let's get back into it. It's
talk back Tuesday. Light us up.
Speaker 11 (01:03:40):
Hi.
Speaker 10 (01:03:40):
I just wanted to add, when you guys were talking
about the Jonestown massacre, I feel like something that doesn't
get talked about enough with that whole case is that
seventy I've seen say that seventy to eighty percent of
its members were African Americans who were drawn to Jim
Jones because he preached a racially integrated utopia. Yeah, and
(01:04:01):
that's why they joined, which I just feel like is
such an important detail and just really adds to the
tragedy of the whole situation.
Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
That's a really good point. You know, Jim Jones promoted
racial integration, and he was a socialist and the people.
That's why it's called the People's Temple, right, it's oh right, yeah, Okay,
So a large number of African Americans were at Jonestown
because you know, they reached out and attracted black individuals,
particularly in urban areas like San Francisco and Los Angeles, right,
(01:04:30):
because that's where they were based out of. They were
drawn in by themes of like racial equality, social justice,
and community support living in a community, and hard to
argue with those, especially in this time. You know, you
have to remember this is like the sixties and seventies.
You know, the Civil rights movement was you know, hard
and fast at this time, and you have this really
(01:04:52):
charismatic leader preaching about racial equality and how this church
this is racially integrated and everybody's equal and it's you know,
obviously going to be very attractive to people looking for acceptance,
right yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
A little humanity and God on top of it. All.
Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Right, so it's going to be very appealing. And you know,
Jim Jones on the surface right sounds Listen, this is
probably a cult I would be in, right, Like you know,
Stephanie always jokes like, oh, I probably this is probably
what I'd be like looking at, you know, like, oh, okay,
you know, because I'm into all these things, these themes.
I'm into the you know, the themes of community living
(01:05:36):
and racial equality and you know, gay rights and things
like that, and these are all things that Jim Jones
was like saying he was about, So yeah, this is
something I would be like, oh yeah, sign me up.
Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
But then ultimately, because it does that sounds wonderful those tenants,
but then ultimately it obviously turns dark. There's almost nine
hundred people there. But along the way, Jones he was
exploiting fear, he articularly in the black and minority communities
and saying like, oh it was it sort of if
(01:06:07):
you don't join forces with us, that you'll be rounds
it up by government concentration camps. If you leave the cult. Oh,
that's in a little bit of research, because after we talked,
I did a little bit of research. And yeah, as
a way, and that's also part of almost any cult
is there needs to be reasons to stay, and they're
(01:06:29):
usually fear based.
Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
I did not know that. I think that's what actually,
now that you bring it up. You know, there's a
documentary on Netflix and I think it's called Jonestown The
People's Temple or something like that, and I think in
that documentary, now that you mention it, I think they
say that they they left the States to go down there,
because I think Jim Jones was starting to say they're
coming after us. Because yeah, no, I think you're right now.
(01:06:54):
It's sparking all these memories now, but yeah, he used
this message of racial utopia basically manipulate everybody.
Speaker 11 (01:07:01):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Right, very interesting and that's a really good talk back
and something that we absolutely should have mentioned. It's just,
you know, we only have a few minutes to talk
about these things, but thank you for the talkback.
Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
What do we have next?
Speaker 14 (01:07:13):
Hi, It's Cynthia from Canada.
Speaker 10 (01:07:14):
Car.
Speaker 14 (01:07:15):
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on Gielenne Maxwell's
attorneys attempting to quash the release of the grand jury
uh transcripts that may be released if there's an agreement
or that the Justice Department pushes to have them released. Thanks,
have a good night.
Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
The transcripts the grand jury of Hurrican See, I didn't
know that, Cynthia are teaching me same so Glaine Maxwell's
grand jury indictment transcripts. They're attempting to quash the release
of that. Why would they be released?
Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Grand jury? I'm yeah, Cynthia, I Cindy, I have to
call us, honey, Yeah, you got you gottapology is exactly
what you're talking about. But I think think I'm gonna
punt because I would like to be informed to answer
this tomorrow, because I can't imagine it's hard for me
to imagine a universe where there say, anyone is saying
(01:08:10):
release the grand jury transcripts. I mean, they are held
so secretive. So we will answer tomorrow. But I think
it's really interesting, strange.
Speaker 15 (01:08:24):
I will definitely look into it more. I just pulled
up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
We cannot you know, what is there anything? You know?
Speaker 15 (01:08:29):
All I hear see is prosecutors have filed emotion in
Southern District of New York to unseal grand jury transcripts
of the Maxwell sex trafficking investigation, arguing it's in the
interest of the public transparency. So you really something there
about it?
Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Okay, Yeah, so that.
Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
The prosecutors are asking for it to be unsealed and
the defense is saying.
Speaker 15 (01:08:51):
Uh uh, that seems to be the case.
Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
I can't imagine, you know, she's still in prison now
she goes out or something, or I just can't imagine
that they'll do that.
Speaker 15 (01:09:02):
Yeah, I cannot see that either.
Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
But given the at this point worldwide, that's strudiny so interesting.
We'll see if we can come with more, you know,
a little bit more facts and knowledge tomorrow. But yeah,
till then, thank you, Cynthia.
Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
Until then, keep it right here on True Crime Tonight.
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm body Move
and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong. Give us a call
eight at eight thirty one crime or send us a talkback.
We're doing talkback Tuesday right now. Adam is hitting us
with all the talkbacks. What do you got for us next, Adam?
Speaker 12 (01:09:32):
Hey, lady Stephanie from Ohio, just a quick comment on
the dark tourism discussion. I just wanted to say, for
me personally, it depends on if history, if it's something
that we've moved past from, or if it's something that
is still occurring. Because with Jeffrey Dahmer, we're still having
serial killers, We're still having these types of murders. But
(01:09:53):
when it comes to for example, the Holocaust is something
we've learned from and moved on from.
Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Love to hear your intake. Thanks, Oh have we though?
Have we learned from it? Yeah? Yeah, I mean there
have been. I had mentioned going to the Museum of Tolerance,
which is in Los Angeles and highlights the atrocities of
the Holocaust, and it also does put a spotlight on
(01:10:22):
other genocides. So I wish we'd learned more as humanity. Yeah,
genocides go sadly go on and are going on. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
I definitely see where she's saying though, Like for me,
it's if is the victims like immediate family is still around.
And for what she's saying though, is that you know,
serial killers are still like an endemic part of society.
They're still affecting us today, and so you know it's
probably not appropriate to go.
Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
To those things.
Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
But like, let's say there was like a polio museum, right,
obviously we've moved on from polio. Everyone's got back scenes.
You know that there's people in India right now giving
vaccines to polio to kids. Like it's something that we've
kind of eradicated, and so that's something that you know,
we could probably do. And I definitely see what she's
(01:11:14):
coming from. From my perspective, I kind of do the
same thing. But for me, it's if the family of
the victim, the immediate family the victims are still alive, Like,
for instance, did Jack the Ripper. Nobody the immediate family
Jack the Ripper's victims are no longer alive. So I
felt very comfortable going on that tour.
Speaker 15 (01:11:33):
Just playing playing Devil's Advocate. Would would you go to
uh Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gracie tour? I mean
those are you know, those are more recent than something
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
I don't think I would. No, I say I don't
think I would. I would have. I wouldn't enjoy myself.
I would feel very guilty, so I probably wouldn't go.
Speaker 9 (01:11:54):
Now.
Speaker 15 (01:11:54):
Yeah, I'm kind of.
Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Yes, I'll be too busy at Chernobyl. Yeah, I really
want to go.
Speaker 6 (01:12:01):
I know.
Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
By the way, So first of all, I thank you
for the talk back, and you know, I think what
you said it's interesting. We all have lines. Like my
line kept sliding all around when we were talking with
Joseph Scott Morgan and I was like, well, so it's interesting.
I think it's you know, our own it's individual ethical,
moral thing. But ps body, when you said a polio museum.
Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Well I was so curious. I going to that museum
in the National Museum of American History and our very
own Washington, d C. There is an exhibition and a
collection whatever happened to polio? Are you serious? Yes? There is? Wow.
So anyway, Yeah, it's a big world. There's always there's
you know, so there is that. Anyway. Do you want
(01:12:51):
to do another talk pic? Yeah, let's do it. Let's
do it.
Speaker 6 (01:12:53):
Hey, ladies, I have a question. I watched the documentary
Deadly American Marriage HM and was just really blown away
by it. What are your opinions on the documentary? I
really don't know what to think. I'm not even sure
what the truth is. After watching that documentary, what do
you think on that.
Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Put us on the spot? Yeah, I think it was
really well done. I do think that Mollie, who was
participating in her husband's you know, being beaten to death
by a baseball bat with her and her father, I
think she really did have problems. According to people who
(01:13:35):
are in the documentary, she did say bald face lies,
like a reality that everyone else was living in. Was
that she was brought in and met the kids and
her future husband now deceased as the au pair, and
then she spun this crazy story that she was best
friends with the dead woman that she never met. That
is deeply problematic to me, like there is something wrong backwards.
(01:13:59):
I also thought that the way she spoke about her
will not adopted kids, which is probably why this man died,
that just the way she was speaking about them after
the fact, it just seemed very fake.
Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
She was victim blaming, you think, yeah, right, Like she
was victim blaming and saying, you know that he was
really a bad guy with a really horrible temper and
abusive and you know, made the kids lie. And for me,
I believe the kids. I believe the kids. I believe
his children. And his children tell us that Mollie told
(01:14:38):
them to lie and that if they told the truth,
they would be taken away from her and.
Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Their little kids.
Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
This is the only mother they've ever known, right, Like
they were so young when their real mother passed away.
This is really the only mother they've ever known. And
of course they're gonna lie, right anyway, I believe the kids,
and that's really all I can say about that.
Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
As a reminder, if you have to any part of
the show, you can always catch the podcast. And we
want to hear with you, So reach out to us
on socials at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and
Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And we are
wrapping up talk Back Tuesday, our favorite sort of hour
(01:15:18):
of the week because it is with you, And let's
go to a talk back now, Adam, what you got Hi?
Speaker 8 (01:15:25):
I am a first time caller, but I absolutely love
this True Crime Tonight and I am calling and regarding
some titles for the documentary The Watch Club. So some
suggestions that I have are truth, Real Society, Unscripted Perspectives,
(01:15:48):
True Story Circle, what my documented minds?
Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Oh?
Speaker 8 (01:15:55):
Real talk really and sorry?
Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
I love it?
Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Doc What was the documenting times? What was the one
she said?
Speaker 15 (01:16:05):
Documented mind?
Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
I like that one, honestly, she said at the beginning,
said a name for the watch club. I'm like, oh,
that it is.
Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
Yeah, And listen, I know we've been kind of teasing
this and whatnot, but you know, we've had some personnel out,
and so I don't want to start this without Stephanie.
And she was coming back very very very very very
very soon, and so I've just kind of been waiting
for her and I miss you very much. And I
think we also want to jump into Son of Sam
with that. What do you guys think about that? It's
(01:16:38):
out on Netflix, the David Berkowits capes. I think we could.
I love the story of the Son. I don't love
Son of Sam, but I like the story of Son
of Sam, and I like how the Son of Sam
laws were implemented because of him, right, And I think
I think I kind of want to start covering that
case too, and that you know, we'll fold right into
the show. Look at actually kind of looking forward to it.
I'm pointing at Taha right now saying.
Speaker 15 (01:16:59):
Oh, I'm jotting it down as you said that. Actually
I'm also fascinated by so.
Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
Yeah, it's a it's a fascinating story. And the whole
the whole like area, the Tri State area in New
York was like shut down this whole summer. And it
was a sweltering summer with brownouts and they were hot,
and people were scared and were having to sleep with
their windows closed and it's sweltering with these brownouts and
it was just a really interesting time in this nation.
Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
I might try and get my mom on the show.
It would be way past her bedtime, but yeah, because
she was in Queen's at the time. She was Weregnant
at the time that summer, and she said, yeah, with
all the brown outs and I mean, son is Sam,
it was it was serious business. It was you know,
just someone clicked through it. It was a pressure cooker.
Speaker 3 (01:17:47):
Literally, and these poor families are their kids are sweating
in their bedrooms and they can't open the windows because
the Boogeyman's out there literally, right. Yeah, so this summer
of chaos and it it's very interesting and I really
want to watch a documentary and talk about it with
you guys, So please don't give up on me in
this watch club because it is happening.
Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
Watch club. Gosh, yeah, you guys are brilliant. So we're
adding all these titles to the list and listen, Boddy,
how fun was this to have everyone hanging out with
us tonight? Yeah, tomorrow, good news pop culture expert Doran
oh Fear Hey yeah, so he will be with us.
(01:18:29):
He's going to be breaking down the latest. Oh, we'll
be getting into the truecom topics of the day, the
headlines of the day, and also with Doran, we're going
to get into post malone, stalker and the unfolding Blake
Lively saga. And we leave you with that and can't
wait to speak with you tomorrow. Good night, True Nightbody
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