Why Were the Menendez Brothers Denied Parole? Plus, Bryan Kohberger’s Advisor Breaks His Silence

Unpacking the Menendez Brothers’ parole hearings with Robert Rand, an award-winning journalist with insider access. Plus, exploring the idea of parricide more broadly in the context of alleged teenage killer Sarah Grace Patrick. Also, headlines on Ghislaine Maxwell, Austin Drummond, and Travis Decker—and someone close to Bryan Kohberger speaks out for the first time. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It is Monday, August twenty fifth,
and guess what, we have a stacked night of headlines.
Award winning journalist, author, and documentarian Robert Rand's here to
unpack all the latest developments in this Menendez Brothers parole denial.

(00:39):
He has so much to say. He is the guy
that was there from day one and as recently as
this entire parole hearing shenanigans. He's been following it closely
and is here to give us will lease some breaking news.
So please, we're so glad that you're with us. Plus,
we're going to dive a little bit deeper into the
Gallen Maxwell interview transcript. Yes, getting a lot of buzz

(01:01):
right now. Also, there's a new memoir coming out by
the now deceased victim, you know, Virginia Guffrey, who has
apparently something to say from after death. And also the
alleged serial teenage killer not a serial killer. The teenage
girl who was allegedly killed her mother and her stepfather

(01:22):
was back in court last week, and we have a
really special person with us tonight. You may recognize her
voice from the podcast Murder one oh one that kat
Studios and iHeart did together. It was number one, and
Riley Whitson, who is nineteen years old, making her radio
debut tonight. You'll recognize her voice because she is a

(01:44):
detective and our junior producer here on staff, and she's
going to be giving us all the inside scoop. I'm
Stephanie Leidecker, and i head of Katie Studios, where we
make true crime podcasts like Murder one oh one or
The Idaho Massacre season three out now, please check it
out on iHeart. And we also make documentaries also like

(02:06):
The Idaho Student Murder is currently streaming on Peacock and
I get to do here every night with body move in,
our crime analysts and of course crime producer Courtney Armstrong,
who was away for a few days and now it
feels like we're never letting you leave again. So the
band is back together and we have so many things

(02:27):
to discuss, but right up, let's go right to Robert
Rand Robert, are you with us?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Good evening. I'm with you, and I have a lot
of new areas to share with your audience.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, we are anxiously waiting for it. We know that
you have been pulled in a million directions, whether it's
on CNN or News Nation, You've been, frankly everywhere, and
for all the right reasons. You have been a journalist
and an advocate for the Menandez brothers to be released.
So obviously their parole for both, if you haven't been following,
have been denied, and we want to get to all

(03:02):
of that and also what's to come. So who wants
to start first? In terms of a little background, Courtney,
why don't you get it away?

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Robert was so thrilled.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
To have you, so happy to be here.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:15):
So, as Stephanie mentioned, both Lyle and Eric Menandez were
both denied parole, and this is after being in prison
for just decades for murdering their parents in nineteen eighty nine,
and the parole seems to have been denied because of
concerns over alleged ongoing risks and prison infractions, and this
just despite rehabilitation efforts. So Robert We understand that you

(03:39):
were part of the media pool during the hearings and
have been in touch with the Menendez family members since.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Tell us everything, okay.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
The first headline I can share with you is that
I predict that Eric and Lyle Menendez will be suitable
Parle and the California pro Board will set them free,
maybe in thirteen months to two years from now, the
next time they appear before the pro Board. The brothers

(04:11):
were told by Parle commissioners on Thursday and Friday what
they needed to do to get out of prison, and
that was very civil advice, which was you need to
come back to board and you can't have any infractions,
no sou on usage, no violence, know nothing. And so
Eric and Lyle Menendus have received that message clear, and

(04:34):
I predict that they will the next time they appear
before the board thirteen months two years from now. They
will have a Christine record going forward from today and
there will be no infractions, and I predict that the
brothers will be set free and set them to their
family as they should be.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
And Robert, you've been nice enough to be with us
before and have really offered extraordinary contacts because this has
been a contra virtial case obviously for many many years now.
If you're just joining us, Lyle and Eric Menendez were
convicted of murdering their parents back in nineteen nine eighty
nine in Beverly Hills, and listen, they've been serving time

(05:13):
behind bars by many accounts stellar you know, prisoners, and
there was a lot of discretion used about whether or
not they've served their time. Maybe they were overcharged because
some very key information was left out of their last trial.
And you know, they've been behind bars for decades at

(05:33):
this point, eighteen months to a year. That might seem
like a long time when you have hope, right, I
would have to assume that once you're behind bars and
you're assuming fifty years to life, you settle in, right,
despite the fact that they have very meaningful relationships with
family outside of prison, and they're married, right, and they're yeah,

(05:54):
one of them is married, and one of them is,
you know, in a very intense, beautiful relationship. And you know,
Eric has a stepdaughter who has spoken out it's going
to be hard when you think you were going to
be home for Thanksgiving, which all of us were saying, right.
That was in the tea leaves at one point their lawyer,
ger Gos, who's a very you know, industrious and important lawyer.

(06:18):
He was really claiming they were going to be home
for the holidays, and how are they holding up? Is
it harder to sort of react Tomate.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
No, Actually, both brothers are very suit spiritusd you know,
there was I think there was confusion from Friday night
until today the general public and also some of the
members of the Menandez and Anderson families I spoke with today.
They thought, as the many people in the public, that
the Pearl beton denied Thursday and Friday was a loss

(06:50):
for the brothers set back, but they may have lost
a battle, but they will win the war. And the
person who explained everything to me is very interesting named
Honore Brown. He is also known as the rapper called
X Rated. Yeah, it's good, about an hour with him
on the phone today. He's a very good source of mind.

(07:10):
Also a good friend. I'm happy to call him a friend.
Honore was released under the California Youth Defender loss in
September twenty eighteen. And Honore had been to the Pearl
Board one time and he was denied for all and
then he came back in thirteen or fourteen months and
he was released. And so that's what's going to happen

(07:32):
in the Nondus case, according to what I've discussed with Honore,
And you know, we had DA Nathan Ackman, who have
great respect for However, you know, he's.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
No friend of the process right now, he is slowing
it down for sure.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
I don't believe that he knows the case as well
as he leads people to believe. He loves to be
on TV. You know, he's he keeps repeating this false
information that Jose Kitty Menandez were kneecapped by Eric Laumanandez
when they killed their parents. And I've seen all the
crimecy photos. I've seen all the autopsy photos in the

(08:13):
nineteen nineties after the trials, and you know, Kitty and
Jose Menandas were not kneecapped. So I wish Dia Hoppan
would repeating that false information. But again I have respect
for the DA, and you know, I'd like to see
him go back to doing his job, you know, making
the streets of Lasa. If I've lived here for thirty years,

(08:35):
and you know, we've got major problems with Humbles and
Cammon smash and grab robberies, just clino activity in general.
So Da Hofman needs to focus on his job, not
obsessed about a thirty six year old murder case.

Speaker 6 (08:52):
Right, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio on
Body Moving, and we're here with Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Leidecker,
and journalist Robert Rand. We're right in the middle of
talking about the Menendez brothers' parole hearings. Robert is it
Are you hopeful because now the Menendez brothers have a
roadmap for success.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Well, yes, that is exactly why I'm okay. You know,
it was very important today that I had that hour
long discussion with Honre Brown, the rapper x rated, because
he has been through the exact process that Eric alam
Menandez are going through right now. He appeared before the
pro board, was denied parole. Then he went back before

(09:31):
the pro board a year and a half later and
they set him breath And I believe that that's the
same thing that's going to happen with the menandas brothers.
But actually they have two other paths to freedom. They
have a habeas corpus petition that was filed in May
of twenty twenty three, the day after our Peacock documentary,

(09:52):
Menanda's Plus Nudo Boys to Trade came out. And the
reason that's so important is that our documentary he revealed
new evidence that there was a nefarious connection between the
Menunda state and the boy band Menudo. And I know
that sounds crazy, but people have to watch that documentary

(10:14):
to understand why this is so important. And also there's
another piece of major new evidence that I discovered in
when I was visiting March Cano. The aunt of eric
lyoman Ed is the godmother of Erkmanns, and that is
a letter that Erckmannans wrote in late nineteen eighty eight

(10:34):
to his cousin Andy Cano. Andy was the key witness
for the defense in the first trial. Sadly, he passed
away from a national Stadon Bill overdose in two thousand
and three, and so his room was untouched by March Keno.
I was visiting her in April of twenty eighteen and
she invited me to look through his dresser full of

(10:56):
personal papers, and within fifteen minutes I found this letter
and I realized immediately when I read it that this
could have a major impact on the case.

Speaker 5 (11:07):
Right, all right, Robert, I had a question on exactly
what you're talking about. A listener named Alisha actually sent
a DM into the show and it says regarding the
Menandez brother as the letter that was found, I wonder
when that letter was sent to the cousin. Was it
a quote, we are going to do this, so let's

(11:27):
cover our tracks by preparing this letter.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
So that's a question that.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Cay one hundred percent believed that the letter is authentic.
The letter actually for I don't mean to go off
on a standard here. The letter was first included in
a Barbara Walders Special Undiscovery ID in twenty fifteen. The
problem was that they had gotten the letter from Marx
Kenno and they showed you know this one key pargraph

(11:53):
where Eric talks about that he's afraid every night to
hear his father coming down the hall because that could
mean that he would be essay. And so the problem
with the Barbara Walder Show was the producer had never
covered them in this case before. So they interviewed an
attorney who told them, well, the defense tried to introduce

(12:14):
this letter into the second trial, but they were unsuccessful.
The judge ruled against them, and the letter was never revealed.
That's not true. What happened is that the letter really,
you know, was never seen until that Barbara Wallers producer
saw it. But as I said, he never come the case.
And then when I saw it a couple years later,

(12:34):
I realized, this is something brand new. This is not,
you know, something that was a piece of evidence that
was willed against in the trials in ninety three, ninety four,
ninety five, ninety six. So I immediately called Cliff Gardner, the
brothers Tell attorney in Berkeley, and then I hand carried
that letter. I knew it was so important from West

(12:56):
Pombeach over to Berkeley.

Speaker 6 (12:58):
You're absolutely right, it's very important, and I want to
continue the conversation about this letter. We're going to continue
this important conversation with journalist Robert Rand.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight, We're talking true
crime all the time. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight
on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm
Stephanie Leidecker here with Body Movin and Courtney Armstrong and

(13:28):
Robert Rand, who is a journalist and author, a documentarian.
If you haven't seen his documentary about the Menandez brothers,
the Menendez plus Menudo boys betrayed, Please do because it
really was extremely pivotal until where we are now. And
if you haven't been paying attention, Eric Menandez and Lyle

(13:48):
Menendez brothers, both convicted for murdering their parents back in
nineteen eighty nine, have both been denied bail in the
last few days Thursday, Friday of last week parole And
it's important because there is no bail involved, but the
parole is very it was very controversial. Look, you know,
and just to kind of reset this really briefly, and Robert,

(14:09):
we're so glad you're staying with us. Cut me off
from getting any of this wrong. But in reality, yes,
they took their parents' lives. They have conceded to that.
And we know that there has been sexual assault by
Dad Jose Menendez, and that the boys were really suffering
and felt that their lives were in danger. Had that
information been allowed in their final trial prior to you know,

(14:34):
this is again you know nineteen what nine eighty nine,
ninety three was when this last trial was. You know,
none of these things were allowed in court, and perhaps
if it was, they would have likely been brought up
on manslaughter charges and then their term would have been spent.
They would have already been released, you know practically by
now like ten years ago. Yeah, like overserved their time.

(14:57):
And remember they got their degrees behind and they'd become
advocates and they have families of their own. So there
was you know, your documentary and then yet another documentary
that aired recently, and you know, then there was that
scripted you know series by Ryan Murphy called Monsters and
TikTok sort of really created this epic swell where there

(15:20):
was this outcry for people wanting the Menendez brothers to
be released. So parole felt very real. And while it's
extremely uncommon to be given parole on the first try,
I mean that's pretty much unheard of. There were so
many mitigating factors and you know, you brought it up
where you know, there's maybe some political factors behind it,

(15:43):
but here we are, and you've been following this case
since day one, quite literally, and first off, thank you
for giving us the context. But it's been really we've
gotten so many emails and people reaching out, whether they're
outraged or confused or just want more context. So you know,
thank you for adding it.

Speaker 6 (16:02):
You know one thing I wanted to add about the
letter very quickly. I'm sorry, Robert is the previous DM
we had from one of our listeners about the letter,
saying could it have been like a setup to cover
their tracks? And I kind of wanted to answer that
really quickly too. I wanted to add. I wanted to
add if it was a setup, I do believe this
letter is legitimate. I believe it was heartfelt. I believe

(16:24):
it's completely real. I don't believe it was a setup.
If it was, Eric or Lyle would have pointed to
this letter a long time ago, but they didn't write.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
They never did.

Speaker 6 (16:33):
Robert Robert found the letter. The guy that we're talking
to right now, the journalist Robert Ran, he found the letter.
So if it was a setup, I do believe they
would have been like, oh, well wait a minute, we
wrote this letter. It's predated, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
So I just wanted to throw that out there really quick.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
Thank you. So a couple of different thanks. First, there
were two trials, ninety three ninety four. Second trial was
ninety five ninety six. Oh, Carl had the misfortune of
starting eight days after OJ Simpson was acquitted a murder.
So you know, the DA's up in LA. They were

(17:12):
going for blood. You know, they couldn't convict the high
profile cases. They lost Rodney King, which set off the
LA riots in ninety two, they lost oj, they lost well.
Menanda's one ended in two mistrials. Half the jurors in
the first trial voted for Mantbum. In the first trial,
the Menanda's defense was allowed to put on fifty six

(17:34):
witnesses who told a very detailed story about abuse and dysfunction.
In the Menanda's failing In Menanda's two, the second trial,
the retrial judge Stanley Weisberg, the trial judge, reversed almost
all of his evidence, roughly at the very start of
the trial. The first thing he did was to kick
the car TV camera out of the court room because

(17:57):
he knew that would cut way down on the coverage
the retrial. Then he proceeded to you know, in the
endartments or you know, without as many eyes watching him.
He proceeded to reverse all of his evident rulings, and
so the defense at the retrial was only allowed to
put on twenty five witnesses versus fifty six in the

(18:17):
first trial, and Judge Weisberg severely limited what the witnesses
in the retroyal could say, and so you didn't hear
about a lot of the facts that led to half
the jurors the two juries in the first trial, one
jury in the second rivel. Half the jurors in the
first trial voted for manslaughter with a manslaughter conviction, which

(18:39):
is the way this case should have ended. There would
have been the brothers would have been sentenced to twenty
two years in prison and they would have been out
for years now. Instead they'd been incorcerated for thirty five
years and five months. And that's a miscarriage of justice
that happened at the second trial, where the defense was
not allowed put on the entire abuse of it, not

(19:01):
allowed to put on the entire family history.

Speaker 4 (19:04):
Right.

Speaker 5 (19:05):
And Robert, we have a couple of questions, And anyone
who's listening, who wants to speak with Robert Rand and
ask your questions, give us a call eighty to eighty
three to one crime. He is here and he is
the man who knows everything. So I'm curious, Robert, with
the hearings, a how are the family members sort of

(19:26):
holding up what was that like for them, you know,
nine and eleven hours. And then also what do you
think of the breach of how the audio was released
from the parole hearing, which should not have happened.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Okay, those are several questions and I'll knock him down
for a good time. So the family members, you know,
I was part of the media pool. I was actually
you know, in the room watching the hearings. That was
a closed zoom session. All the parole hearings in California
been on zoom since the pandemic. So the only people

(20:02):
that actually saw the hearings were Eric Allaumnendez, their parole attorney,
Heidi Rummel, and there were about twenty twenty five members
of the family that were witnesses in so those are
the only people that saw the hearing, along with one
pool reporter. Initially, the CDCR Prison Boston Student California, We're

(20:27):
going to allow two dozen of media members to watch
the zoom and the family objected to that, and so
there was one pool reporter from the Ala, Sames James Quely,
who did a fantastic job of providing pool reports in
real time. So throughout the day Thursday and Friday, I

(20:48):
was receiving these pool reports via email. We were not
allowed to report any information from the hearings until the
parole board and out their decision. After a ten hour
hearing for air Fornendas on Thursday and an eleven hour
hearing for Levenanda sunt Friday. The average parole hearing in

(21:10):
California is only three or four hours long, so the
fact that these hearings went on for so long is
kind of strange. But as I said, we have these
pool reports in real time, but we couldn't report any
information until we had a decision from the pull A board.
So that's, you know, the backdrop of what was happening
with the media why you couldn't hear new information during

(21:33):
the day when the hearings were going on. So over
the past few days, I've been able to talk with
a number of family members and they've told me, you know,
additional information besides the poor reports. And I spoke to
some family members today and they were confused, you know,
they thought this was a terrible loss that the brothers

(21:53):
were denied parole Thursday at Fartay. But as I mentioned earlier,
I had now long with Honore Brown, the rapper X
rated who spent twenty six years in the California prison system,
and that's how he got to be a very close
friend of Eric and Lyle Menendez. Yes they are more

(22:17):
than friends. Actually, Eric Menendez wrote a two page signal
space letter to the parole board, you know, explaining why
Honore Brown was suitable for parole, and Aire is grateful
to the Menanda's brothers. In fact, in the one of
the recengineering either one of the last two, Honore testified

(22:39):
and he said that he had been to Menendez University
the brothers had helped him prepare for the pro board.
So really, the story is just full of these, you know,
really interesting backcoids. And I'm actually going to do a
final edition of my book. The original book came out
in September twenty eight team. The book was re released

(23:02):
last fall, a week before Monsters. You know, I really
should send Ryan Murphy a bouquet death flowers, right for
raking the awareness of the case to the three hundred
million Netflix front. I was interviewed in the Netflix documentary
that came out last October. But here's the Here, here

(23:23):
are the facts. What gets you out of prison after
thirty five years of in custory is hard evident, like
we had in the Menendous Manuo documentary, not a buzzy
TV show, right.

Speaker 6 (23:37):
True, that's correct because like your your documentary is factual.
Where is the Monsters? It's scripted, it's you know, it's
made for TV. There's a lot of sensational in behind people, right.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, let me just talk about one scene. You know
in Monsters, they had a scene where the actors playing
Eric Lysle were in a shower together naked and making
out right. That scene never happened, but you know, people
watch Netflix, and they did in the scripture Jurist, and
they believe that that was real.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Right, But it did rally the troops, right, it did
give them a.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Swell of such I plan to send Ryan Murphy a
bouquet of dead flowers. I thank it for racing awareness
of the case, and to thank the Netflix documentary racing
awareness of the case. You know, Netflix has a huge audience.
You know, I heard your introduction that you guys have
a documentary on Peacock about the Idaho murders, and so

(24:40):
we are Peacock buddies.

Speaker 6 (24:41):
Yes, we're also on Netflix buddies to Netflix Buddies to
I have a documentary on Netflix.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well I have to watch your stuff.

Speaker 6 (24:52):
Yeah, don't with cats. It's called It's pretty interesting. But
enough about me.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
About no, Actually I saw that documentary that okay, yeah,
I'm little in the documentary.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, that's me.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
That's a great documentary.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
We have been getting so many calls and talkbacks, Robert
specifically about this case because A, you've been here before
and have really shed some light in context on a
their lives behind bars, and yes, they have really turned
things around. They've acknowledged their part. It appears that they

(25:34):
have really been abused in a way that should never
happen to two boys, especially by their father with mom
looking on. We actually have an audio clip that I
think sets up some of the discussion about Kitty Menendez,
the mother in this case, who was you know, murdered
by her sons. But again, if dad was abusing them

(25:56):
and mom was aware of it and looking the other way,
what does that mean? It says a lot, And there's
been a lot of chatter that you know, well, you know,
these boys are a danger. They're men obviously now, but
they're a danger to society because look what they did
to mom. You know, if they had something against Dad,
that's one thing. But what about mom? And you know

(26:17):
we're hearing it here. Imagine your mom is aware that
you're being abused and is looking the other way. That's
a tough spot.

Speaker 6 (26:25):
I just don't know if it's a murderable spot. I mean,
there's a lot of different options that you can take.
But like he said, like Eric said, though he viewed
them as one that night, and I'm sure Lyle probably
felt the same way. I don't know how I would feel,
but yeah, I mean it's really terrible.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
You know.

Speaker 6 (26:41):
The lawyer for the Menendaz Brothers, Mark Gergos, was on
News Nation just now and he said this. He called
the decision rich and said that he will be talking
to California Governor Gavin Newsom and a Superior Court judge
in an attempt to get the ruling reversed.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
What do you think about that, Robert, This story is
very much in motion. There are a lot different moving parts,
and so it's very challenging for me as journalists to
keep up with everything. I mean, I've literally been on
the phone. I'm looking at the o'clock. I've been on
the phone for about twelve hours today. Talking to sources

(27:22):
you know, in the legal community, talking to Mends and
Anderson family members, and it's just it's really challenged try
and keep up. There's so many different moving parts, but
we can't get around the elephant in the room. Eric
leilem Nan just killed their parents in August nineteen eighty nine,

(27:43):
and you can't get around that. You know, they are
not celebrity. They you know, should not be regarded in
that way by you know, there area supporters not only
in the US, but all over the world. In fact,
the majority of the other supporters live outside of the US.
But what many of the the reason that they are

(28:07):
so interested in the case is that they are sexual
abuse survivors. And so that's why this says. The story
has resonated with so many different communities. And what happened
was in June of twenty twenty, co TV posted the
entire first trial on their website. They posted the video

(28:32):
on Father's Day of June twenty twenty. And then in
the summer of twenty twenty, my son, who was fourteenth
time kidded me one afternoon and he said, Dad, you
got to look at TikTok. It's full of that brother's videos,
and my first reaction was just a laugh, and then
I went down the rabbit hole for three or four hours,

(28:53):
and then I was like blown away by what was
happening on social media, on Instagram and TikTok. So I
watched this for several months, and then I called a
friend of mine who was a senior editor at the
New York Times, and I said, you guys should do
a story about this. You know, this thing is growing.

(29:13):
And that was back in the fall of twenty twenty.
New York Times did a story about the new Menendez
defenders that was published in February of twenty one, and
then ABC twenty twenty to our special in April of
twenty twenty one, and so that's when this whole movement
really started growing. And what happened, as was explained to

(29:35):
me by somebody who really knows social media, there was
a huge community on TikTok of sexual abuse survivors. As
you guys know, there's also a huge community of people
that followed true crime, and so what happened in the
summer of twenty twenty was the abuse survivors and the

(29:56):
two grime people, you know, kind of got together and
they glombed down to this case and they decided. That's
how this case turned into a social media phenomenon, and
that's what's led to everything thing that's been going on
from then to right now August twenty five.

Speaker 5 (30:17):
Yeah, this case has had so many sort of legs
and iterations and different times and the zeitgeist that it
has come back. If anyone wants to join Robert Rand,
who has known the Menendez brothers since back to eighty nine.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
You should give us a call.

Speaker 5 (30:34):
We're at eighty eight to three to one crime and
we are talking about the fact that Eric and LYELEL
Menendez had their parole.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
They were both.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
Denied parole, Robert, So you mentioned obviously that so many
people have taken up the cause, but I wanted to
talk really quickly about the infractions. So obviously Eric and
Lyle were denied. Do you think that the infractions are
overplayed correctly played? I mean some of them sounded serious,

(31:06):
you know, a bunch of cell phone abuse and.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Well the the U there were new there was new
information that I learned on Thursday and Friday at the
Pearl hearings. The brothers prison records were actually confidential up
until the parole hearings, and then we heard about various
infractions that Eric Brenandas had over the years, including supphone

(31:31):
usage and drug usage that he was allegedly involved in.
And then Eric Menande's on Thursday was only questioned. I'm sorry,
Eric Menande's on Thursday was questioned for I think over
an hour. A family member told me about the crime,

(31:52):
about the killing of Jose and Cannendas with Lyle Mendus.
There were two different commissioners each day. In fact, I
just want to go back and say the clip that
you guys played was actually one of the leaked audio
clips from Eric Menandas's parole hearing Thursday. It was not
from the originalt trials in the nineties, and that was

(32:15):
the clip in which Commissioner Barton from the California par
Award was questioning Eric Menandez about the crime and about
the killing of Kiddy Mnuda. So now we'll go back
to Wild Menendas and his parole hearing on Friday. Last Friday,
he was only questioned for about twenty minutes about the crime.

(32:38):
But I was told by family members that basically he
was getting pounded with questions by the two parole commissioners,
different commissioners each day Thursday and Friday, and they were
spent like over an hour pounding him about his cellphoned
using yeah, you know what happened here was that George Gascone,

(33:04):
the former dav Valle County announced the rescending initiative at
the end of October twenty twenty four, you know, saying
that he wanted to have the Mz Brothers considered for rescensing.
And then on election day in November, George Gascone was
voted out of office and replaced by Nathan Hockman. So

(33:28):
then sometime in November, both the heirs and Lyle Menendus
were accused of using cell phones and they were that
was a violation the prison rules. And I understand people
might not understand why cell phone usage is such a
serious issue in prison. And here's why. If you have
a burner cell phone, you might not say the Menz Brothers.

(33:52):
I don't believe ever did this, But there are people
that have ordered gang hits on the bought from prison.
They have bought drugs in prison. Not Eric. I'm just
speaking in judgment generally, sure, And so that's why this
is the big issue. Also, one of the brothers testified

(34:14):
that he paid one thousand dollars to buy a cell
phone in prison. So where do you think those cell
phones are coming from? How are they getting smuggled in
the prison? And of course I have the answer, it's guards.
So there's you know, that's a whole other issue. If
the guards are corrupt and the guards are selling cell

(34:35):
phones to the inmates, that's a problem.

Speaker 6 (34:38):
Yeah, because like the issue is that cell phones a
burner is not being recorded and monitored by prison staff,
and you know, so they can get away with things
that they normally would not be able to get away
with when their phones are being recorded, right. And I
think it was Lyle that said too, or maybe Eric
that said that, you know, he has privacy concerns with
the high profileness that he's got to like that there

(34:59):
were some privacy he concerns with the cell phones something
like that.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
Sure, well, well, liveman testify that the.

Speaker 5 (35:07):
Reason Robert I am so you know, this is a cliffhanger,
and I so apologized. Body couldn't stop herself. Asked a
question that we will ask you to answer, and we
actually have a caller for you, Robert.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
This is Mike.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Okay, Hi, Mike, Hey, how you doing good? How are
you hey, Mike, Hey pretty good?

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (35:30):
Hey. So for me, I just think the the justice
system was messed up back and back in those days.
For example, like even just sexual abuse to me, especially
my parents, wasn't you know, some jurors talked about openly
or probably fully understood, and they testified about being a
left and everything, but it didn't protect them. And then

(35:53):
I just think prioritizing trauma wasn't or mental health wasn't
kind of flew in the nineties the child abuse as
possible justification for violent actions, and I don't think they
also understood battle child your own quotes than you know
what I mean.

Speaker 6 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, you're Mike, Mike, thank you for the call.
You're one hundred percent right. You know, time evolves and
things change and we learn and you know, and so
now with the lens of history, we can see, you know,
maybe why the men and the brothers acted the way
they did, right, especially for young boys. I mean, I
think our caller is so correct. You know, sexual abuse again,

(36:29):
the shame that comes with that, the courage to speak
out let alone against her parents, and I think especially
for men.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
You know, listen, go back in time too, thirty six
years or so, there really wasn't a language for this.
So at the bare minimum, it's really important for us
to be talking about it because look, this is sensitive stuff.
There's no question, it's very layered. But again, this is
abuse of hideous kind. And you know, many are experiencing

(36:58):
this and hopefully they will make the appropriate changes or
speak up because of cases like this.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
And I would like to thank my first call. You know,
society has evolved over the last thirty years, and so
now today we are fortunate that people are talking about
these issues. They are sharing stories of men, young men,
boys being as I sayed, in their families. And back

(37:29):
when the brothers were on trial in the early nineties,
people never talked about these issues. It was so shameful
that it was really a hidden secret.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
And that's why this conversations so important, right, because people
need to know that it's okay to talk about this,
and it's okay to come forward, and what's happening to
you is not your fault, right, we need not conversation
it's not okay. Yeah. More importantly, it is not your
fault and it is not okay you know, these were
young boys. And again, you know, Lyle was twenty one

(38:00):
years old. Eric at the time was eighteen years old.
Even the male frontal lobes are not even developed until
what twenty five, twenty seven years old, sometimes even thirty. Again,
I'm not making excuses. I know it's controversial, but my
heart kind of does break. I hear those audio tapes
about the vulnerability of being, you know, at the hands
of dad, knowing that mom is not stepping in. It's tough.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah, well, let's get in the hot tub time machine
and go back to the nineties. Eric and Latmnandez were
made fun of on Saturday Night Live Jay Leno with
the Tonight Show. You know, they were the butt of
a bunch of jokes. And now when you see those
sketches for Messinel or you see some of the Jay
Leno sketches, they haven't aged very well.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
No, they have really not.

Speaker 5 (38:49):
Robert, thank you so much for allowing us to keep
her here, for sharing your expertise. Anyone who wants to
read more of Robert's work should read his book, The
Menendez Murderers Updates Edition, The shocking, untold story of the
Menendez family and the killings that stunned the nation, or
watch his documentary Menendez and Menudo Boys Betrayed. Stick with

(39:11):
us True Crime Tonight. We're going to be talking about
coburger and more.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Thank you, Robert. Listen. We've been talking a lot about
the Menendez brothers and their parole denial, both of them.
If you've missed any of the first hour, no Stress,

(39:38):
you just can catch it right after the show as
a podcast. And again we want to hear from you
eight eight eight three one crime. So jump in join
the combo anytime. You can leave us a talkback on
the iHeartRadio app. You could also just leave us a message,
or you could hit us up in our socials at
True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, or at

(39:58):
True Crime Tonight on faceboo book. So listen, this Gilaine
Maxwell mess is a little bit crazy making. So there's
a lot of things coming to the surface right now.
Three hundred pages of transcripts have been released, as well
as some audio of Gilaine Maxwell's most recent July twenty
twenty five interview that essentially says that there really was

(40:22):
no list. There is no client list. Also, she said
that any of her paraphrasing right now, but that basically
any of her interactions with President Trump were you know,
nothing but lovely, and that Clinton, for example, who President
Trump had said, had been to the island many many times.

(40:44):
She claims that's likely not the case, and that you know,
everybody was pretty chummy and fine and there was really
no crime at all. So she was essentially convicted for
sex crimes that, according to her, now never happened. It
was also interesting now again she is saying this in

(41:05):
July twenty twenty five. Again, last month, we all remember
she was giving an interview basically on the heels of
everybody wanting this client list that had been promised us.
We all want the files, we want to hear about
her grand jury testimony, and at every corner it's a no.
It's a no, it's a no, which has just made

(41:26):
us all feel a bit gas lit on all sides.
Whether you're a Democratic, Conservative, a Republican, like, it doesn't
matter where you sit in this. We're all kind of
really angry at the idea that sexual abuse amongst young
girls or women is I think we could all agree
not okay. Clinton was being dragged into it, and look

(41:50):
all of it may be accurate, but according to Gilain Maxwell,
there is nothing to see here, which again she's looking
to get a pardon. And I guess that's where I
get a little bit confused. And I'd love to hear
from you guys what you think, because you're basically looking
to get out of prison, and anything you say canon

(42:10):
will be used against you. So of course she's gonna say, yeah,
there was nothing wrong. By the way, victims weren't being reinterviewed,
just her, and it must have worked because suddenly she
has been moved to a low security prison. And although
she has not been pardoned, nor has her status been changed,

(42:31):
meaning the charges that she was convicted of still remain,
yet she remains in a much cushier situation. So is
Trump going to pardon her? We do not know. But
essentially this was a message out to the person who
could pardon her, where she's saying, lovely, nothing to see.
So that's a little infuriating, and I'm not totally sure

(42:53):
why it infuriates me so much, but for some reason
it does. And then also we're hearing reports that the
most vocal centerpiece victim, you know, you'll remember her from
the documentary Filthy Rich. We had the director of Filthy
Rich on with us on this show as well, Virginia Gouffrey.
She took her home life back in April. Again, what

(43:17):
about timing on that one. She's not even here to
discuss any of this. However, she apparently wrote a memoir
that is going to be released in October October twenty first. Oh,
and everybody's leaning in. What is she's going to say?
And listen, so many of the victims who put their
lives on the line by coming forward in such a

(43:40):
high profile case. So many have come forward and now
are not only in the news talking about how disappointed
and disgusted they are, how nervous they feel for their
own safety. But what a slap in the face ultimately, right, So,
the woman who was apparently luring young girls to this
island alone alongside Jeffrey Epstein is basically just getting a

(44:03):
cake walk of a deal, which is unheard of. There's
so many people behind bars who would actually like a
version of justice or to have their cases be relooked at.
But suddenly she's getting a little bit of a half
free pass. I suppose what does that even mean? And
what do we do with this information at this point.
And also she did say something else slightly interesting that

(44:26):
Joseph mentioned on Sunday. She believes that Epstein was killed,
that it wasn't in fact a suicide. So A, how
does she know that? B why are we listening to
her in the first place. I know this is a
person that's been convicted federally for sex abuse charges, and
why are we taking her at face value? And again,
I'm real pro woman, you all know this, but this

(44:48):
one's got under my skin. But she also yes, she did.

Speaker 5 (44:53):
Gillian Maxwell did say that it was not suicide. He
was killed, but she also thinks or said that she
thinks it was some like prisoner on prisoner thing. She
said that if powerful individuals wanted Epstein dead, they could
have done it before he was jailed. And she called

(45:13):
these murder theories by you know, government or heads of
state or who be it. She called them ludicrous, which
also serves the person who she is now hoping for
a pardon from, because she washes away what people are
thinking that it was conspiratal.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
And let's just go down the rabbit hole on this
for one second. So the person who can pardon her Trump,
who may have nothing to do with this, but he's
the one that can pardon her, right, so he sends
his person to go do an interview with her. So
again we're a little inside the combo. This is no
longer unbiased, right. We also know Pam Bondi said that

(45:53):
he in fact was mentioned in the said documents that
don't actually exist, like it doesn't matter on her sense.
They were on her desk. We saw the binders, you know, allegedly, allegedly,
allegedly there were all of these cameras throughout this island.
There was this this the flight log that whether it
was Clinton and please everybody cannot come after me. But

(46:15):
still these were really prominent names, world leaders, people that
were making decisions that affect every single one of us,
you know, whether they're princes or sheikhs or you know,
technology experts, and the biggest way, it's pretty gross. And
Virginia Guffrey, who is the one who has now taken
her life, who can't speak for herself. She was sixteen

(46:37):
years old working at mar Lago. And President Trump just
recently came out a while on Air Force One basically
saying that he lost ties with Epstein because he basically
stole her from mar A Lago, this young girl, sixteen
years old. She wasn't an underaged woman. She was a girl,
and she got taken to work as a massuse or

(46:57):
something at some spa for Epstein, and that's severed their relationships.
So we're not talking about you know, adult women, and
even if we were, it still would not be okay.
Imagine being thrown to an island, flown there by a woman,
Elaine Maxwell, they take your passport. You're now stuck there
and you're surrounded by lascivius men with money and power.

(47:22):
What do you do in that situation? You finally get
the courage to come out and speak up. And now
this it just feels gross. Yeah, you said it best.
I mean it definitely feels gross.

Speaker 6 (47:32):
I mean even if she was of age, right, she's
still gonna feel kind of like intimidated and like, of course,
you know.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
What an optionless you're basically being locked youay there passport.

Speaker 6 (47:44):
Have you guys ever been in a country where you
don't have your passport? I have where you can't do anything,
you can't do You were literally stuck in your room,
you can't go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
It's scary. It's not a good thing.

Speaker 5 (47:54):
We'll be very interested to read Goofrey's book, as you said,
it comes out October twenty first. It's called Nobody's Girl,
And interestingly so she co wrote this memoir over the
course of four years with journalist Amy Wallace. It was
completed before her suicide, obviously, as it will be published,
but the suicide happened in April, and on April first,

(48:18):
in an email, Goufrey said she had heartfelt wishes for
the book to be released even in the event of
her death. Ooh, and she called the story essential for
justice and awareness, but good grief.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
The timing on that is hard to look away from.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
And there's been several suicides around this case, and not
even several many suicides around this case. And look, we
do know that she had had a troubled life. Virginia
was the mother of three children at the time of
her death. They were nineteen, sixteen, and fifteen. Imagine what
they're going through. So our hearts go out. She married

(48:57):
an Australian like a martial artist or something, and you know,
they had a very tumultuous relationship, we're told, and there
was some sort of incident and suddenly he got primary
custody of these three sons, and again these were you know,
maybe some really dark times and maybe her death has

(49:18):
nothing to do with any of this Epstein, Geleene Maxwell craziness,
but it just seems like the timing.

Speaker 6 (49:25):
Is just you know, it's hard to wrap your brain around. Well,
we're going to keep following this. Obviously, it's very sussed
us and it's definitely on our radar. And you're listening
to Tugraham tonight where we talk true crime all the time.
I'm Boddy Moved and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and
Courtney Armstrong and we're talking about today's top true crime headlines.
If you want to weigh in with your thoughts, give
us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime or

(49:46):
we love the talkback. Send us a talk back on
the iHeartRadio app. So, I have a pretty big Travis
Decker update if you all do tell about this.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
So, there was a press loom. There was a press
conference today at two o'clock.

Speaker 6 (50:00):
The FBI now is basically in charge of the search
for Travis Decker. They have closed a Washington campground and
it's intensifying the manhunt for Travis Decker, who, by the way,
if you have aren't familiar, he is alleged alleged to
have murdered his three young daughters during a court appointed visit.

(50:20):
Travis Decker, he's thirty two, he's a fugitive. He's former military.
He's been on the run since June. He murdered his
three young daughters, Peyton who is nine, Evelyn who is eight,
and Olivia who's two, and their bodies were found in
a remote Washington campground. The FBI, in multiple agencies have

(50:40):
resumed an intensive search near the crime scene. You guys,
So they've gone back to ground zero, Okay, which is
really this is why it's a big update to me.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
It's interesting, right, very interesting.

Speaker 6 (50:52):
Does it tell us something? Does it tell us something
about the investigation? And I think it does. I think
it tells us that he's dead number one, because what
they've said is that they're going to be doing a
grid search in the area of the crime scene. Okay,
And this is what they said. The areas being searched

(51:13):
are extremely challenging, with steep hillsides, dense brush, minimal cell service,
and unprecedented conditions. Over the past three months, investigative teams
led by your Sheriff's Office Investigative Unit have pursued every
lead and search vast remote areas in the hopes of
locating Travis Decker or any evidence that might bring us

(51:35):
closer to answers. This has been painstaking and difficult, and
I want to personally commend all involved for their dedication.
And he went on to say, you know what, I'm
wearing this uniform now, but the guy that's going to
be wearing it next, and the guy after him, and
the guy after him, and the guy after him, We're
never going to stop looking for him.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
But I mean his dangerous too, by the way, so dangerous,
very dangerous. So here's what it tells me, though, why
would they would like would they tell Travis Decker this
is where we're looking if he wasn't dead. Do they
think he's dead? You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (52:09):
And are they searching this grid for closed maybe where
he's at He's well.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
He's either dead and in that area, or he's gone
and in Canada, as his plan would suggest that they're
about to happen.

Speaker 6 (52:22):
They're not looking like near the border. I'm sure the boat,
I'm sure Canada is for sure. But as far as
I know, they're not looking him near the border. I
don't think they think he's there. They're refocusing all their
efforts back at the crime scene.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (52:34):
And there's the FBI has one hundred personnel out there
looking for him.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie here
with Courtney and Body and we have, uh, the greatest
of greats our junior producer who's been working with us
for the summer. Riley Whitson is here. We also call
her my Riley. That's just so we all hear it
loud and clear. She is a star. You may recognize

(52:59):
her view beautiful voice from the podcast Murder one oh one,
also on iHeart. If you haven't heard it, please check
it out. It's so good and it basically centers around
this incredible teacher, Alex Campbell and his extraordinary class of
young adults Riley being at the Helm, who essentially start
digging down the rabbit hole of cold cases back in

(53:21):
the nineteen eighties, and they are so crazy actionable. They
literally solve Jane Do murders, and they create a profile
for this what could be a serial killer, and that's
all sort of what the podcast is about. So, Riley
is a detective at heart and also a producer at heart,
and we love her family, We love her, and she's

(53:44):
going to be now our on the beat Teen Detective,
if you will. So, you know, we've been following this
case about Sarah Grace Patrick for a while. She's been
accused of murdering her mother and her stepfather. She's very
young and although very grisly and gruesome. Riley has been
following this closely, and we'll continue to follow cases that are,

(54:06):
you know, a little younger, so we're getting that you know, demographic.
So right, welcome to your show. Welcome Riley. She works
on it every day, so we love having her. Finally
we can hear your voice.

Speaker 8 (54:19):
Thank you guys for having me. I'm honored to be here.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
We're excited to have you. So tell us what's going
on with Sarah Grace Patrick.

Speaker 8 (54:27):
Yeah, So on August nineteenth, Sarah Grace Patrick, she's seventeen
year old from Georgia. She was denied bond by the
judge after she was charged in connection with her mother
and stepfather's murders. So her mother, Kristen Brock, and her stepfather,
James Brock. They were found shot to death in February

(54:47):
of this year inside their home in Georgia, and Patrick,
who actually reportedly contacted true crime influencers across talk and
social media. She was arrested after she confessed to the
murders and the morning of her six year old sister
was the one who sadly discovered their bodies and then

(55:08):
Sarah Grace called nine one one, right.

Speaker 6 (55:10):
So let's let's just unpack that very quickly. So she
killed her mother and father right or her stepfather right then,
like knowing her little sister was going to find the
bodies and then call nine one one. But then in
the meet, you know, after started contacting influencers to crime
people on TikTok to cover the case, right.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Well, she was crying and sort of reaching out. And again,
this is sort of interesting timing that Riley has right
now on the heels of this menendez you know race.
So obviously they were young men who murdered their parents.
By the way, it's pretty rare. The statistics on this
is not you know, this is not a regular thing,
and you know, again it's horrible beyond measure. I would

(55:57):
have to assume that there's more to this story that
will be on and will be discovering. We just don't
know yet or has there been any more info right
about the why in.

Speaker 8 (56:07):
This They have not been able to come up with
a motive. But we do know that most adolescent they
call them patrick or parricide offenders, So these are people
who who.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Have murdered their own parents.

Speaker 8 (56:22):
These young adolescent offenders, they are typically out of desperation
or a need to assert some sort of autonomy. So
we can look at possible signs of abuse. I mean,
we saw that with Menindez brothers and even with Gypsy
Rose Blanchard. I know that we've talked about before, So
I'm interested to see if the defense is going to
take that route and possibly try to unveil some previous abuse.

Speaker 6 (56:47):
Yeah, because we haven't heard anything from her right, Like,
she hasn't said anything. She's basically remained silent.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
So we know her biological father did stand by her
right So I believe her biological father, who ultimate I
think took her to the police and helped turn her hand,
and he drove her to turn herself in. And imagine
that's a tough spot too. You have your seventeen year
old daughter. She had a big life ahead of her.
If you look at photographs, she looks happy and healthy

(57:14):
and beautiful. Beyond words, How could this happen? What would
pause a person to do this? Was she protecting her
six year old sister? Was she just you know, caught
up and you know, having a bad day. We have
no idea, but there has to be more to it.
And again, we are not justifying this behavior, but we
will be following closely, I assume.

Speaker 8 (57:34):
Right, Riley, Oh for sure. And interestingly enough, most females
who commit parricide they're typically taking a hands off approach,
so whether that be through poison, they don't directly commit
the murders themselves. So I find it really interesting and
odd that both parents were their causes of death were

(57:56):
gunshot winds By.

Speaker 5 (57:58):
That is a phenomenally interesting I also in I guess
that the prosecution argued that she was potentially a flight
risk when this was when they were talking about trying
to get her to stay at home and be on
house arrest. And this is a horrible thought that she
could potentially intimidate witnesses, particularly her younger sister.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Yeah, like that, poor that poor girl. That's I'm sure
all of it. There's there's no happy ending here, right,
you know, to your point, Riley, parricides account for two
percent of all homicides in the US, meaning five parents
are killed by their biological children every week, So two
percent when people how many people are dying? But yeah,

(58:42):
two percent, that's actually seems low, but five per week
seems high. So I'm not even sure what to do
with that math. But it's real guttural and primal, and
it's scary stuff. You know. It doesn't appear that there
were drugs involved or that she was you know, meth
fueled or anything like that. But again, we don't really

(59:03):
know all the details quite.

Speaker 8 (59:04):
Yet, right, And I don't even know how to feel,
particularly with how she reached out after the fact to
these TikTok influencers asking them to look into the case
and really displaying her emotion and really vivid in desperate ways.
I don't really know how to feel, honestly.

Speaker 6 (59:22):
Yeah, it was almost I felt like, looking back on it,
it looks like kind of performative a little bit, and
what she said like she was telling people that they
thought it would bring a lot of views and be
a big hit, right, is that right?

Speaker 5 (59:35):
Yeah, yes, Well, if you want to weigh in on this,
we were talking about Sarah grayce Patrick. She's the seventeen
year old she has been charged with her parents' murder,
her mother and her stepfather. She's in court, and we're
talking right now about how after the fact she went
and reached out to TikTok influencers.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
She had a really weird eulogy too, right, She had
sort of I shouldn't say weird suddenly, I'm now now
I'm flipping my script. Riley's talked me out of it already.
You're nothing but trouble this Thereah, this kid's are I
guess right? So you know two seconds my all of
my compassion has now gone out the window. But she

(01:00:17):
did have a she gave a eulogy about her mom,
especially right, and she was really emotional and kind of
carrying on, and it feels it felt again to somewhat
impressionable like me. It felt very legitimate. But she also
could have also been missing her mom, even though she
was the reason. And again, there's no reason for murder.

(01:00:38):
We're not trying to justify it by any means, but
you know, Riley is such a young person I can't
even imagine, like where this is very rare, thankfully, but yeah,
you were saying you're not sure how to feel about it.
What do you think is going to happen next.

Speaker 8 (01:00:56):
I'll be really interested to see her next court appearance.
I know she was obviously denied bond because the judge
said she could be a flight risk and intimidation to witnesses.
I know that she had some very distressing phone calls
to her maternal grandfather while she was in prison, kind
of pleading her innocence, and he testified on her behalf

(01:01:17):
in the hearing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
I'm curious on.

Speaker 8 (01:01:20):
Whether or not she'll have access to social media inside
of prison, because we've unfortunately seen that in other cases.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
I don't know if.

Speaker 8 (01:01:29):
She'll be able to reach out to family members to
get people on her side or make further posts. But
I was kind of surprised by the grace she was
given in court, especially with the recent happenings with the
Menendez brothers, as a female offender and as a young offender. Now,
if the judge would have been a male, I think

(01:01:49):
the story could have been different. But the female judge,
I think she put her foot down and was very
stern with her, which I think was a good thing
in this situation. So I'm not really sure what's going
to happen. Very interested to see, though, and I will
definitely keep us in the loop.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
You better, Yeah, well, I think I think too.

Speaker 6 (01:02:06):
It's going to have a lot to do with what
kind of evidence they have against her as well, and
we don't really know what that is. But we do
know that the authorities have said that her digital footprint
basically led to rest, but they haven't given us any
information on what that is, right, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Yeah, maybe she just wanted the attention if she was
going to social media and was like kind of like
like the opposite, the reverse of Munchausen's it's like Munchausen
child abuse. I don't know, you know, who knows. But again,
for your beloved sister, to Courtney's point, to be the
one who has to identify a mom and stepdad, you know,
that's hard to come back from. So she will have

(01:02:44):
a lot of explaining to do. It appears she's being
tried as an adult, I believe, right, So yeah, there's
you know, she's up against it, that's for sure, And
I'm sure we'll be following this very closely, and Riley's
basically has identified multiple cases, including her great work on
murder one oh one. I can't wait for more of

(01:03:05):
that to come. But you know, we're just trying to
make sure we're keeping the beat alive. And you know,
Riley's kept us all in a tight leash all summer.
She's been working with us for the summer. And listen,
Riley knows what's doing. And you know, by the time
we're talking, Riley already has the answer. She's already done
the research. She's already sending it here and there and everywhere.

(01:03:25):
So we're all in very good hands. And yes, college awaits,
and you know, the summer might be ending, but the
idea is that we will be having Riley back again
and again and again.

Speaker 6 (01:03:37):
Yes, that would be great. I been talking to the
younger version of myself.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Yeah, baby body, baby.

Speaker 9 (01:03:43):
Body, compliment I've ever gotten.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Stop it. We're so lucky to have you. We love you,
Ry and please give our love to your family and Tanana,
and congrats on your first radio debut. Me.

Speaker 8 (01:04:00):
I'll definitely keep you guys posted on this case as it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Develops, of course, and we'll see tomorrow back in the
studio Quick, do we know? Do we know when her
next date is? Her next court date? Do we do
we know yet? I think it's been set, but I
don't think I believe it.

Speaker 8 (01:04:16):
Yeah, her next arragnment day is set for September twenty second.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
September twenty second, round, So we'll add that to the calendar.

Speaker 5 (01:04:22):
That would be good, and we'll have if not earlier,
we will have to have you back then, Riley for
the update.

Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
Thank you, thank you so so much.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Great job Yard. Yeah, she's here, we did it, she
did it. Listen to Ley's a Star Mark. My words
were like, Riley is going to have the most trail
blazing future. So I think she's our next oprah yay,
So more on this to come.

Speaker 5 (01:04:52):
Well, listen and anyone who's interested in Riley's amazing work
canon should listen to her story on the K Studios
podcast Murder one O one.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
It's incredible.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
It's incredible.

Speaker 5 (01:05:04):
I mean, the story is incredible, the storytelling is incredible.

Speaker 4 (01:05:08):
Go and listen and listen.

Speaker 5 (01:05:09):
Stick around because later we're going to be talking about
this kind of bombshell thing that came out about a
professor of Brian Colberger is in the Idaho murder case,
Keep it here, True Crime Tonight?

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
How great was Riley? Producer of greatness? They're young, she's
only a teen or something. She has been like really
doing true crime detective work since like middle school, and
it's really in high school. I know, I know she's
the real deal. So oh so proud. We should all
be so proud of her. Tell me a lot of

(01:05:53):
she's really great. I really really the world could use
some smart chicks, right, and you know goodness, she is
one of them. So listen. We have talkback Tuesday tomorrow,
so we should be teasing this more. Oh my goodness,
it's talk back to day tomorrow, and we need some talkbacks.
Although we've been getting so many good ones, so we've

(01:06:14):
been stacking them. And I know we've had some calls
that we've missed because we've all been talking too much.
So don't let that prevent you from trying again, though,
eight eight eighty three one crime. Please leave us your messages,
of course, leave us a talk back on the right.
iHeartRadio app. In fact, we have one right now.

Speaker 10 (01:06:30):
Hi, ladies, It's Hayley calling from Austraya. I love listening
to your show. Always listen to it when I'm walking
in the morning. I really think Baka was ill, was
and is a major manipulator. And that's how I manipulated
his parents. He's the reason why they tried to find

(01:06:51):
friends for him.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
That's all.

Speaker 10 (01:06:53):
I just wanted to say, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Yeah, I think she's so right. Unfortunately, I just think
he is a master manipulator. I think I know mother
and his father just hook line and sinker. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:07:06):
Well, there's somebody else that has an opinion about Brian Coberger,
and that is his former professor at WSU. So the
New York Post. I talked about this a little bit yesterday,
but I didn't get to really talk about it too much,
not as much as I wanted to. Let me just
say that again, I could do a whole show about
Brian Coberger over and over and over again. While The

(01:07:26):
New York Post published an exclusive interview with a retired
public defender turned professor who discovered his aggravating teaching assistant
was mass murderer Brian Coberger. For those that don't know,
in November of twenty twenty two, four Beautiful Angel University
of Idaho students were brutally murdered and six weeks later,

(01:07:46):
Brian Coberger, who was a criminology graduate student at WSU University,
was arrested in charge with those murders, which was like
a pretty shocking revelation to his professor, who is John Snyder.
Revised him during that semester. And here's some things his
professor now, Brian Koberger, Brian Colberger.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Was his teaching assistant.

Speaker 6 (01:08:09):
Okay, and that's part of the curriculum at WSU, well
at most colleges.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
So this is what he said.

Speaker 6 (01:08:15):
Brian quickly disabused me of the idea that I would
get a sufficient amount of work from him. Now you
have to understand this. This professor is, he's a former
public defender. He teaches like law in terms of criminology program. Okay,
and Brian really just didn't see, I guess, any interest
in learning from this guy. So he told he told

(01:08:37):
this John Snyder, You're you're likely not going to get
a lot of work out of me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
The balls on the I mean, I was just going
to say that, Asy says. So here's another one.

Speaker 6 (01:08:50):
He would start talking about inane, stupid and immature things.
It was a technique where he felt like he was
in control as long as he was wasting my time.
Now this is going to our talk back, right, A manaster, manipulator.
As long as he felt like he was wasting this
guy's time, Brian felt in control, which is very interesting.

(01:09:12):
Another one my classes ta looks like a murderer. A
female student made this eerie comment early in the semester,
long before the murders even happened. So this, this, this
classmate of his, was like, he looks like a murderer.
I thought that was interesting. Yeah, he rapidly developed the
habit of coming in at the end of the day.

(01:09:33):
I started calling it his terrier routine. So here's what
he says. What is that it's at the end of
the day. Well, you know how terriers, Yeah they yeah,
so yip Yeah I love a terrier. I know I
did too, but not him, but yeah, not not Brian
Coburger the terrier. So basically where he's saying, what Johnsonator
is saying is that he would be in his office,

(01:09:54):
like packing up his briefcase, getting readily for the day,
and Brian Coburger would walk in and like corner he
and talk to him about this again a nane, stupid
and immature stuff and then the professor would be like,
I gotta go and start walking out, and Brian Coberger
would fall follow him down the hallway yippin' about this stuff,

(01:10:16):
and the guy's like he can't take a hint.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Yeah, you know, this guy had no social awareness, nosoever,
and then he says, this is a quote he was
a bit of a douche an exceptionally long semester. Is
this guy from Long Island? Yeah, I don't know, maybe
this professor seems like we grew up in the same town,
but it's really telling, like it's very rare for a

(01:10:39):
professor to speak.

Speaker 6 (01:10:40):
Out like this, right, so, and then another one he
said was it was an assault on what I do.
John says, the reality of the crime isn't what bothers him.
This is kind of weird. John said, the reality of
the crime isn't really what bothered him. It is instead
somebody studying criminology to become a better criminal instead of
to pursue justice, and that really bothered him. Obviously, I'm

(01:11:03):
sure the murder did too, you know, I'm sure this
is yes, contextualized and whatnot, but he was really offended
at Brian Cobroger even being in the criminology program once
the murderer whence he was arrested.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
Yeah, it's like going to the military just so you
can do treason, right, so you can rebel against your country.
Like that's so disgusting. So yeah, similarly or using all
of these skills that are being taught to you by
extraordinary brains, right and using that for evil.

Speaker 6 (01:11:31):
And then he said I actually considered him a whim.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Yeah, I love interesting. Right.

Speaker 6 (01:11:36):
Oh, another thing very important, really quick as part of
the investigation, he went into the Moscow Police Department to
talk to them about Brian Coberger because obviously he has
some insight, and that the investigators told him that Brian
Coberger had a list of women, a list of women,
and one of the women on this list was a

(01:11:57):
fellow faculty member. We don't know who I'm gonna assume
and take a massive stretch, and you think that it
might be somebody that he was kind of obsessed with.
And we learned in these Idaho State Police reports that
there was one particular person in one of these offices
that Brian Coberger would literally come and stand in front
of her desk and just stare at her like creepy creepy,

(01:12:20):
creepy stuff. He even would hover behind her and watch
her while she worked. So I'm assuming maybe it's one
it's her, or it could even be the professor that
he had a particular problem with.

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
We know that one of the complaints. There's many complaints
about him.

Speaker 6 (01:12:35):
I'm not actually cataloging all of them now, but one
of them was an actual professor that he would constantly
buck up against. And it could be her.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:12:43):
But he was keeping a list of women, but they
but he didn't know what context this list was made.

Speaker 5 (01:12:50):
I could not have been a good context. I don't
think it was. You know, no possible that that's the reality.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Listen, this is.

Speaker 4 (01:12:58):
True crime tonight.

Speaker 5 (01:12:59):
We are talking about some really interesting new perspectives on
the murderer of the four students at the University of Idaho.
And yeah, just details are coming out about him. You
want to join the conversation, give us a call. Eighty
eight three to one Crime. My favorite thing that this

(01:13:20):
professor said in the interview was.

Speaker 4 (01:13:23):
Obviously it was it was not an audio one, it
was written.

Speaker 11 (01:13:26):
But.

Speaker 5 (01:13:28):
His belief was that quote being both extremely irritating and
physically weak, he won't survive to the end of his
natural life in prison, Oh, but extremely irritating and physically weak.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Everybody finds him irritating. Literally, everybody finds him irritating. Even
in prison right now, he's irritating. He's the guy. Even
all of his cellmates in the last place he was at,
they were like, this guy is super annoying, forever pacing
talking to himself, like he is just that guy. Another
season you haven't, Yeah, he do. I'm sorry, mom, I'm

(01:14:03):
sorry to all, but I feel like it applies, and it's.

Speaker 5 (01:14:06):
Okay, professor said at first and best, Yes, directly, so exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:14:10):
Another thing that we haven't really talked about is that,
you know, I've been going through all those reports, right
these Idaho State Police reports that have been released, and
those have been really insightful into Brian Coburger. The Moscow
Police Department reports weren't as insightful, but these ones were
pretty insightful. And one of the things that we've learned
is that investigators kind of recreated the crime and they

(01:14:31):
they timed how things were going. You know, could he
have done this in the time and here's like a bombshell.
Investigators determined that Coburger could have committed all four murders
in as little as ninety seconds, with total time at
the scene estimated at thirteen minutes. So what they did
this is going to trigger warning a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:14:52):
They they read the autopsy reports, they know exactly what
how many times each victim was was assaulted, how many
times they were stabbed.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
And what they did was they.

Speaker 6 (01:15:04):
Recreated the path he took in the house, like going
up the stairs, going into Maddie's room, you know, and
actually physically, you know, mimicking stabbing motions right to time it.
And they did that for all four victims, and they
came to the conclusion that he could have been in
and out of there as little as ninety seconds. That's

(01:15:25):
all it would have taken for him to commit this murder.
These murderers, I should say, Zana, I find that impossible.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
I know it's I find it. No, I'm not saying
that they're wrong, I'm just no, I just find it shockingly.

Speaker 6 (01:15:38):
Well, he didn't, he didn't stay in their only ninety seconds.
I mean, they're just saying it could have happened. He
could have done all this in ninety seconds. Now, if
you sit in a room and with nothing and you
just set a timer for ninety seconds.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
It actually is pretty long, like I know, but this
is actually very violent crime. We know the stab count
was to imagine all right, and we're on two different
floors and there's a lot of physical exertion and you know,
this is it's not an easy task. Now, but Zama,
here's the thing. Zamma fought back, right, we know this,

(01:16:14):
like hell she did. She bought back right, right? Superwoman? Yeah,
like she's a rock star, like, oh, just the poor girl.
So she was.

Speaker 6 (01:16:22):
She was the only victim awake during the attack, and
she did fight back, sustaining over fifty stab wounds and
defensive injuries. So that added significant amount of time to
you know, this ninety second possibility.

Speaker 4 (01:16:36):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:16:36):
We know he was in the house for an estimated
thirteen minutes, so you know, the big talking point through
all this is how could he have done this? Well,
the police recreated it and they're saying he was there
longer than he had to be. It's interesting, it's very interesting.
So that's in one of those reports, and you know
it's just I don't know, I just found it interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
I wanted to tell you guys, it is.

Speaker 5 (01:16:58):
And another thing, because you're right, all of this information
is sort of coming out in bits and pieces that
of course would have come out during trial. But one
thing that I read and I don't recall where was
that in Coberger's phone he had eighteen contacts. Yeah, that
is so small, it is. It kind of staggers the mind.

(01:17:21):
Eighteen including of course mother, other father, sisters, and then
one was running group girl.

Speaker 6 (01:17:30):
And yeah like girl guy with hair or something like that.
Like just he didn't only be for me. For goodness,
The only really text messages he had were like group
chats were with fellow classmates and stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
That's right, And I cannot believe this night is almost over.
Remember Talkback Tuesday is tomorrow, So come on, you got
to start leaving those talkbacks. Leave us a message after
hours eight eight eight three one crime, or leave us
a talkback, or you can always call us live and again.
If you've missed any of the show, please don't be upset.
You could always catch it right after as a podcast

(01:18:03):
and catch on up, ladies. We have a talk back
right now. Oh okay?

Speaker 11 (01:18:08):
An idea for the Group Watch documentary. I just started
the Mortician. It's on HBO Max. Okay, and it's about
a man named David Scott who did some bad things.
I guess a mortician. So just an idea.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
Okay, that's a great idea. I feel it.

Speaker 6 (01:18:30):
So I haven't watched it. True Crime and Chill. That's
the name of the program, right, True Crime and Chill.
That's on Wednesday, Right, And so you have homework everybody.
We're going we're watching Conversations with the Killer, the Son
of Sam tapes. There's three episodes. We're going to be
discussing them, I believe Wednesday. So make sure you do
your homework.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
On the community.

Speaker 6 (01:18:52):
It's on Netflix. This is a community project. It's three
hours of your day of you know. Just turn it
on the background and then call and tell us what
you think. We're all going to be talking about that
case on Wednesday. I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
I can't wait. This is the launch of the Lawns.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Goodness, I'm going to have to make goodness. We have
another talk talk back right now. It's talk back Mania,
my ladies.

Speaker 9 (01:19:18):
Is Ansley calling from Canada. I just must say I
love that all the rapport you three half together, as
well as your producers I'm wondering if you are all
friends outside of the show. I would love to hear
more about the dynamic because I think it works so well.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
Oh good, that's the nicest of the summer, so that
someone could say, first, you know, I love them, Yeah,
you know, yes, we are actual friends.

Speaker 6 (01:19:50):
When my mom died, I got flowers from Katie Studios.
I mean, they really did care, and they really you
know what I mean, like, yeah, we're friends outside the show,
like we don't go grocery shopping together or you know.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Go get side because we really just stopped inside, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:20:06):
But yeah, no, I I care about these women and
obviously the producers and stuff too, and Sam and Adam
and whatnot, and uh yeah we we we respect one
another and we do care about one another, right, Like
I think that's yeah, I think that's fair to say.
I got to school pictures today from Courtney. I loved them.

Speaker 5 (01:20:22):
Well, and I sent them internally because Maudie schooled us
all and said, do not post pictures of any children. Yeah,
so any children in my life. I will not be
posting anything.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
But I was.

Speaker 6 (01:20:34):
I got a text message today and it was great.
So yeah, no, we are friends, but yeah, so listen
talk back Tuesday tomorrow. Get those talkbacks in. I love
a talkback. Okay, please please leave us a talkback. I
know Courtney and Stephanie really love the live calls.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
I love a talkback. I love them. I love the
d talk back too. I just like the excitingness of
live also. But it makes me can't go wrong. I see.

Speaker 5 (01:21:00):
I think it's almost because I do too. I get quivery,
like the call gonna drop. Not that our audio engineers
never drop a thing, but like it is.

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
It's like exciting. It is kind of exciting. That's true.

Speaker 6 (01:21:12):
And then, of course, don't forget conversations with the Killer
the son of Sam's tapes for True Crime and chill
and listen even if you want to leave us a
talk back.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Tell us your favorite snacks. What are you going to
be making while you're watching the sun sating? Have you
guys tried the cottage cheese, no sour cream, little chips?
Have you guys not tried it yet? It sounds disgusting.
It sounds disgusting. I promise you it's delicious. Do you
have no? No, no, it's the straight like the good
old cottage cheese that nobody likes. I don't like it either.

(01:21:40):
I'm sorry to the Cottage Cheese Factory. But regardless, nobody
likes it. But it is a good source of protein.
I'm told in the little rice cakes that you see
in the grocery store that have sour cream, I'm telling you,
you dunk them together and it is more delicious than
you could imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:21:57):
Sam.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Thank you. At least you're nodding. I appreciate one of you.
By the way, I've already watched it, so not only
had I had to snack, but I've already cut this class.
I'm going to be playing hooky tomorrow. I'm crazy for you, guys.
This is true crime tonight. Make sure you find us tomorrow.

Speaker 11 (01:22:14):
Back