Storytime!

Carolina and Devin catch up on Carolina’s recent family weekend full of drama and tamales. The ladies check in on Vanderpump Rules and then Devin tells one of her craziest ex stories! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh hello, and welcome to True Romance. This is Carolina
Barlow and this it's Devin Leary. You guys.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Thankfully, my grandmother does not know how to listen to
my podcasts.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
She asked me what a zoom was.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
This weekend, I put Google Maps on her phone. So
that is why I feel free to talk about my
Memorial Day weekend, which I hope was different than yours.
I hope yours was enjoyable. Mine was a little traumatic.
I decided to visit my grandmother, who I've not seen
in fifteen years, because unlike some grandmothers, my grandmother doesn't

(00:53):
always want to see me. In fact, when I said
I'll come visit you for Thanksgiving one year, she said
where you stay, which is an iconic answer maybe like
like I said, I want to go to Arkansas to
see the sites, and she was like, oh cool, where
will you stay? But I was like, I want to
spend Thanksgiving with you? And she was like, great, what

(01:13):
are you going to do?

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Like what? I don't know how to help you with that?
Oh my god, listen. I love my grandmother. She was
a tobacco farmer.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
At age seven, she basically like pulled herself out of poverty,
and that is why, like you know, she didn't. She
could have easily given her depression, given marriages to abusive men,
just like fallen apart, and she somehow had the grit
to become like vice president of her company. A lot
of that is white privilege, obviously, but she, you know,

(01:45):
paid for my mom's college, which is how I am here.
That all being said, she does not like humans very much.
She has nine cats, So when people think it's crazy
that I have three dogs, you can see where I
get it from. And I decided that being in that
the fact that I'm in Atlanta, I was like, I'm
going to go to Arkansas Memorial Day weekend. When else
am I going to ever want to go to Arkansas?

(02:05):
I'm going to see my grandmother. I haven't seen her
since I graduated from high school. Folks, that's so crazy,
it's crazy. So I show up. I'm of course shocked
by how old she is, because fifteen years is a
long time.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
But she's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
She's always been beautiful, and she's so skinny, and you
can tell that she loves that. She was like, I'm
she was literally pulling like your anarexic friend. She was like,
I'm so skinny, Like the doctor says I need to
gain weight, Like, oh, no, what am I going to do?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
I mean, an anirexic person would actually avoid saying that
to avoid I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
When I was, I definitely loves like the fact that
people were worried about me.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
I did too, But I also was like wait, Like
anytime someone was like, oh, you're so skinny, I'd be like, what,
like under all these baggy clothes? Really you think so?

Speaker 1 (02:50):
And things go well.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I go to her house, which unfortunately smells like eight
million cats have peed in it, Like I can hang.
I've been to boys' houses. I've been to a boy's
bathroom where there was a damp towel that I had
to dry my hands on. You know, we've all all
seen a lot. If you've dated men, you've seen it all.
But I walked into this home where there were nine
outdoor cats, meaning cats that were wild that my grandmother

(03:15):
decided to quote unquote rescue and bring into her house.
And I could not I could barely breathe. It was
really wild. That being said, I can't emphasize enough how
much I love her, like she I really do love her.
And I think she's really special and kind and funny.
And then I see my quote unquote grandfather, and I say,

(03:35):
quote unquote because I'm not related to him. He's my
grandmother's third husband, and when I was little, they got
together before I was born. When I was little, he
told me not to call him grandfather and repeatedly told
a five year old that no, I'm not your grandpa,
which is looks to camera fine. And so now I

(03:57):
see him at age, you know, thirty three, and he
actually has the same arm injury weirdly as me from
a fall he had, so we're sort of comparing injury notes.
And I tried to make him feel better because I've
heard that he's really depressed about it, and I say, yeah,
you know, it's really easy to get bitter, and and
we have what I think is a good conversation. I'm
a little worried about the length of his toenails, but otherwise, like,

(04:19):
I feel like everything's fine, and he's actually being sweet
about my grandmother, Like he's being that awful kind of
mean man that generationally happens where older men are, Like
he was like, I'm so ugly now that I'm old,
and I was like, no, you're not. And he was like,
when you're old, you become ugly. And I was like,
not my grandmother and he was like you think and
I was like, okay, you're a dick and I said, yeah,
she's beautiful and he said she is the most beautiful

(04:40):
woman woman in the world. And I'm and I was like, okay,
so you're not a complexion.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
This is really this is hard to follow the track
of is this oh yeah, he villain.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
A hero a villain and I don't think anti hear anymore.
So cut to, my grandmother is like shocked that he's
behaving so well and is like, oh my gosh, I
think it really helps him talking to you. I'm started
to feel like, you know what, he's doing a lot
better than people have been, you know, people meaning my grandmother.
I've been saying, I'm really happy that he like saw me.
I feel like an inspiration for being.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Like, No, I was going to say, you're like high
on the code.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Of yeah, I'm feeling I'm like, I think I'm helping
you and not all heroes. Cut to We decided to
meet him at his favorite Mexican restaurant later for a
four pm dinner, looks to camera.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
Wait so sorry question. So he was already at the
restaurant and like, you guys had a separate experience.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
So we tell him, like, we're going to meet you
for dinner. We're shocked he'll come to dinner with us.
Like when someone asked me if I was going to
see him when I was going to see my grandmother,
I said no, probably not because I was that you
know there, he's like a recluse, Like I was convinced
he wouldn't see me. But they agree to a four
pm dinner with me, which I'm again I'm shocked that
he's joining. My grandmother drops me off at the hotel

(05:52):
so I can lie down for a second. Because I
was a little bit tired for my travels. I went
to the Atlanta airport, which if you've never been there,
it's basically like going through a NASCAR race.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
It is absolutely insane.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
It was you, Devin. You were the only other person
whould understand that. I almost had like a mental breakdown
there totally. You know those people who you see like
videos of them just yelling out of nowhere.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Like what the fuck is going on? That was almost me.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
So so I'm exhausted anyway. And so my grandmother when
I wake up at three, is like, Captain Jim. Jim again,
I called him Captain Jim instead of Grandpa.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
So whatever, wait, wait, wait sorry did I miss did
you already say that? Or is this the first time on?

Speaker 2 (06:36):
No, So they lived on a boat when I was little,
so we called him Captain Jim.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
So now she's still as an adults, like Captain Jim
is in the other room.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
She might Jim, we're going to meet some ask Captain Jim.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
We're going to go meet Captain Jim at his favorite
Mexican restaurant.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
So we go.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
And if you're still listening, thank God, thank God for you,
bless you for listening to my family saga. So we
go to a three pm dinner, which by any standards
is early.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Even by four pm.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
She was like, he's already at the restaurant. We go there,
he's at the bar. I say, Jim, we're going to
sit at the table. He says, no, we're sitting at
the bar. So I'm already like, you're kind of on
my shit list and you've clearly been drinking.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
We sit down at the bar.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
He says, sit next to me, I say, no, I
want to see my grandmother, so I'll sit on the
corner so I can see her diagonally that I can
tell that pisses him off. He's being really rude to
the waiter who's clearly English speaking man, and he's speaking
to him in bad Spanish, so that is embarrassing. And
he is being rude to my grandmother. Which watching a

(07:43):
man be rude to a woman older than you, so
you feel like it's you don't feel compelled to be like,
shut the fuck up. And if there's anything I've learned
from the Housewives, it's that I feel like I want
to do that more often. I want to be like, stop,
shut the fuck be polite.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Same, same.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
But this is, you know, my eight year old grandmother
and a man who's been drinking for I don't know
how many hours because I saw him have a drink
at eleven thirty am.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
I need to work on, say, we need to work
on on the phrase please don't speak to me that way.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
I literally today I could say that, and I'm always like, okay,
sounds good, and then later I'm like, why didn't I
say please don't speak to me that way.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Especially, I literally got an asshole email on Friday and
that would have been the perfect time to respond.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Please don't email me in that tone.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Asshole emails. Hashtag asshole emails hashtag got.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
An asshole email. So he tries to order for me,
which is almost cliche. He's like, she'll have the tomorrow.
We're have free trace. Tamali's so the English like waiter
who looks at him like fuck you or where he
could be Spanish, but he's like speaking English to us,
So it's like, you're being racist, and I say it's Tamala's.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah. I say.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
He's holding up a three by the way with his hand,
and I'm like, we don't need to do this. I say, no,
I'm going to have three tacos because it's one thing
I'm okay with sticking up for. It's what I'm going
to eat. Yeah, and he throws his menu down the
table so pissed off. And I can see my grandmother
clocking every moment, and this is where I'll say that
I can see the alan On coming in like she

(09:22):
is just like very much watching his drinking, really monitoring
everything and worried about his experience over anything, And I
don't see that. Judgmentally, I say that that is the generation,
you know, like, yeah, she has been married.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
To abusive men her whole life.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
She is making sure they're okay because that is a
instinct to preserve your own safety. And I think, you know,
as we inherit generational trauma. Like and I'm not going
to get into the weeds about that, but I'm going
to say I think that we all have that instinct.
I mean, without being in a relationship with someone abusive,

(09:57):
I still put you know, still going out with you, Devin,
who you matter to me, like you're everything to me,
And going out with a boyfriend, I'm more concerned with
a boyfriend's experience. And I think that, like you can
identify and probably would say the same thing.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, I guess I would say that. I definitely think,
like I struggle with. Something I'm struggling with recently is
like being present since I'm single, Like, and I hung
out with a friend and we went out on Friday night,
and it's like hard for me to be present because
I'm like, who's single, who's hot? Like yeah, and I'm like,
why didn't I just spend the night talking to my
friend who I haven't seen it a long time. Instead,

(10:34):
I was like distracted.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
But back to my grandfather's toenails.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
So he's just kind of like a mess at the bar,
like is having trouble sitting, is coughing repeatedly, and my
grandmother is checking on him, and he's telling her to
shut up and to leave her alone. He's wagging his
hand in her face, like to leave him alone. I'm
very uncomfortable because again I'm I'm so close to being
like I wish you weren't here. I wish I was
just here with my grandmother. And he's getting wasted. So

(11:00):
we finish a bad meal. He can barely keep track
of all his things, like his keys and stuff, and
my grandmother to me is like, I don't want him
to drink anymore. He goes back to the bar as
we're leaving to drink more, and he keeps on telling
her take Rose back to the hotel. He looks at me.
They call me Rose, it's my middle name, and he says, Rosie,
if I wanted you to visit, I would say come visit.

(11:21):
If I wanted you to visit, I would say come visit.
And at this point I'm like, how many? How many
variations of rejection by men? Can I feel? This has
been rejecting me since age five? Like after being such
a sweet grandfather, renting me Olsen Twin movies to watch,
making me homemade French fries, giving me candy, he told
me repeatedly, I'm It's like someone's saying I'm not your boyfriend.

(11:44):
He's like, I'm not your grandpa. Okay, don't get too attached, sweetie.
And now he's telling me that he didn't want me
to visit, even though I haven't seen my grandmother in
fifteen years, My poor grandmother, and I don't judge her
for this, couldn't say anything. She only said, I want
to follow him home because he's been drinking. I want
to follow him. He's like, don't follow me home. I'm fine,
And she says you're drunk, and he says, no, I'm old.
I'm not drunk. And he looks at her and says,

(12:05):
what's wrong with you? And he looks at me and says,
she's so bizarre, and then gets into his car and
we follow him home.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
We follow bizarre. I know I see him sorry much.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
First of all, I'm not drunk. I'm old. Second of all,
she's so bizarre.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
She's so bizarre because she's worried I'm going to kill
someone on my way home.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
We follow him home. We pull up to the house.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
It's like a scary drive, Like following someone drunk while
they're driving home is scary because you're like, if they
hurt someone, I don't even know how to defend my
own actions of like not physically trying to put me
from getting into the car. So we get home. She
follows him into the house. He leaves the car on
next to his garage. It is just like those crazy

(12:48):
nights you had in college where everything went wrong. Yeah,
Like it's all of that, And I just sit in
the car and I cry out of like shock. Like
it's more, it's not even crying like I'm sad. I
cry out of like the feeling because I tell her
because I can tell my presence is like triggering him
for some reason.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
I tell her like, I'm.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Going to stay in the car because I don't want
him to get more upset. But then she's like, Okay,
I'm going to go talk to him. And at the
same time, I'm like, this is my eighty year old
grandmother who can barely walk because of pain in her leg,
and I'm watching her go into a house with a
man I believe to be abusive, at least emotionally, and
it's a very vulnerable feeling of like I don't know
what to do to protect this person. That's really scary,

(13:25):
and at the same time, like I can't believe like
a man can talk to me this way. And I
guess I just bring this up because I thought it
made me think a few things, one of which being
alone is not the worst thing that can happen to you.
Being with someone who is awful to you, and being
in a situation where you feel you can't get out

(13:47):
is the worst thing that I think can happen to
you romantically. And I understand the feeling of not being
able to get out, And I also just wanted to
say that generationally this makes sense. She was not allowed
to open a bank account on her own, she gave
up her ability to go to college for her first
husband to go to college. She was told by her
first husband that she was stupid because she was just

(14:08):
a farm girl. And now she's in a relationship at
eighty with a man who, like I believe, loves her,
but also who she does everything for and who is
rude to her. And I'm just I guess I just
wanted to say that because I feel like we really
have to be careful who we end up with, because

(14:29):
both you and I have been in situations where we've dated,
I mean me when I was younger. I always feel
like I need to say that in case people think
it's my most recent ex boyfriend with people who are
very rude to us. And I feel like that's and
I also think that, like I want to almost say
this to you because I know you know how like

(14:50):
upset I get when I feel like you're not dating
someone who treats you like amazing, And like, I think
this is something that I get really triggered by, is
the feeling of like concern over someone I love being
with someone who's not treating them.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
Well, yeah, I think that's really hard. I think like
it's a hard position to be in.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I don't know want to sound like a martyr, and
maybe I do, but I just feel like I feel
angry at the whole situation.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
I mean, the thing is that, like, well, do you
feel like a martyr? Like what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (15:29):
I mean I don't want to feel like poor me,
like I care so much about other people that it hurts.
It's more of I want to control situations. I hate
that this is a situation I can't control. I hate
that like I can't control my how my grandmother experiences life.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
And I hate that we can't get people out of
situations that aren't good for them. And I've been in this.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
I've been the person that people couldn't get out of
a relationship. So I understand at and still it's something
I get upset about. If that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Well, it's really hard to watch someone in that situation.
It also has nothing to do with you exactly. And
also like it's like we don't know what's good for
other people, even if it seems like someone is in
a situation. And I've been in an unhealthy relationship that yes,
technically wasn't good for me, but I needed to stay

(16:27):
in that as long as I did like it. In
the situations I've been in, I'm sure you and other
people thought like, oh, this isn't good for Devin, if
only she would do what I think she should do, right,
because I know what's best for It's like, yes, I
understand where you're coming from. But what I needed to
do is actually stay as long as I did to
learn what I needed to learn.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right, No, I do believe that, and I can in
retrospect things make sense and I can see you're right
about that. I can see a relationship I was in
my early twenties which was definitely emotionally abusive on both sides.
I think I can see in retrospect why I needed
to experience that, what I needed to learn from that,
I needed to go deeper into learning about my own

(17:09):
defects and like how to become the person that I
envisioned myself to be or wanted to be. And I
don't think I would have gotten there without hitting like
the very bottom with that relationship.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
So I agree, I agree.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think I think it's just protectiveness, and I think
it's just seeing like an older person in pain is
a specific kind of horror. And I think also seeing
someone you respect, like I clearly like am impressed with
what she did with her life and to see someone
not appreciate her makes me want to use physical violence totally.

(17:46):
And it also gives me insight into how we view
like how we're not that far apart from generations of
women who were told that a man's happiness was singular
to their safety and their life say excess.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, no, I think, oh, that still happens a lot.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, exactly. And I've felt that in relationships. I've felt
in relationships the most important thing is this person being
happy and that is the key to my life. And
that sounds dramatic, but that's how I was acting. It's like,
you want to go on a trip. I'll bankrupt myself
to take you on a trip.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
You want me to like miss work, You want me
to be like I need you are my first priority.
I even said that to a boyfriend once. I was like,
you mean everything to me, and I meant it. And
I could totally see us growing old together and him
being miserable, like you know my non grandfather is, and
I me taking care of him in some capacity. And
I one of my lessons this weekend, I was like, Wow,

(18:41):
it really fucking matters who you marry because you are
going to get old. It's like how we're scared to
gain weight in relationships or like what our boyfriends think
of us, and it's like, no, I need to be
in a relationship where I know I can get like
old and wrinkly and you will think I'm like the
most beautiful woman in the world. And I do think
that exists. I have seen old people hold hands and
that is a magical image.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, it's also interesting what you were saying, Like, I
think it's so easy when I'm single for me to
be like, oh my god, it's so unfair, Like I
wanted to be married at this point. I wanted to
be like on my way to having kids living with someone,
like and at the same time, like that jealousy is
so interesting because it's all so hard, like being in. Really,

(19:20):
I remember being in different relationships I've been in and
my single friends complaining and I was like, really, you
would rather be in my shoes, Like it's so hard
to try to connect with another person on a regular
basis and to figure out life plans together. And then
once you're married, that's hard, and once you have kids,
it's like incomprehensibly hard. So it's like it's all just
difficult to be a person.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yes, I completely agree, and I think it's extremely important
who you put yourself around, and I would include friends
in that, you know, like we really have to protect
our energy. So like, yes, the person you marry should
be extremely supportive, extremely loving, and they should know how
to deal with their own shit. They should put their
shit on you because you're gonna have enough to deal with.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Although some people I think like having shit put on them.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
I okay, so yes, and I agree with this too,
And I think that that was the hard part with
my grandmother was I was like, who can Like at
one point, he was such a drunk girl, he like
lost his phone and she was like, do you know
where his phone is? And I was like no, But
I was also like who gives it? And she was
better about that. She was like, I guess I'll have
peace and QUI because you won't be calling and texting
me all the time. Like I was like, you guys
are in your twenties and an abusive relationship. But he

(20:28):
like got drunk and lost his phone and is asking
you where it is.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
And there Kyle and Amanda from the summerhouse.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Oh, he left his car on and it like went
into the garage and like hit the garage and pulled
the trailer and then he falls on the staircase to
the house and lays there because he can't get up
and a neighbor has to help him. I was like,
this is an episode of Summerhouse, Like it's that's the
sumhow like Amanda.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Puts all of his stuff like outside.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
It was just like I know, I was like, God,
this is like, you guys, are that couple from AKA
me at twenty one dating a couple who I we
would like regularly like both make out on the streets
of New York and also scream at each other on
the streets of New York. But again, I think it's generational.
I think women are like, yeah, this is supposed to
be mine. I am supposed to take care of this. Yeah.
And I've gotten to the age where I'm like, you

(21:13):
know what, go to therapy, take care of your own shit.
I'm not putting my unhappiness on you. I've been depressed
and I'm not making that your responsibility. Don't make like
you're having trouble getting old, make your own coffee, you know,
feed one of the nine cats yourself. Don't yell at
me to do things all the time.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
So I'm obviously a little amped, a little wired, But
I think more than anything, it's just heightened the importance
of choosing who you spend your time with. And also,
you're right, it's none of my business in a way,
she has chosen to live her life this way, and like,
who am I to come in after fifteen years and say,

(21:50):
like get out totally, Like clearly something is working.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
I know. That's the thing is like some people like it.
It's always a two way street. It's like, right, someone's
in it. Yes, there's like the element of like manipulation
and abuse, but it's also like sometimes sometimes I've been
in those situations where it's like for some reason, I'm
kind of like enjoying this dynamic still and.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
I right, right, yeah, Well, we are going to take
a quick commercial break, and when we get back, we're
going to talk VPR a little update on our VPR
first reunion episode, and Devin has a story that will
knock your towel off your body.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
This is Storytime episode, story Time Episode.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
I wish there was like a little kid song we
could ensure that with this is story Time episode. Clean
your home, clean your shoes, pick around your room, story
Time episode, be right back. I hated that, And we're

(23:06):
back with Storytime episode. Something that Devin has said most
recently that she hates and she did not like the
little Kids.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
I like Storytime episode. That was my fucking idea, but
I don't like the song that you sang about cleaning
your shoes.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Clean your home, clean your shoes. I am so excited
Devan is telling this story. It's a story that's famous
actually for me personally.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
It's famous for me too. It's I got a certain point.
I kind of got sick of telling it.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
No no, no, no no.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
But the ex that this is about who.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
This is a story about a girl named Lucky. I
won't interrupt anymore.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Okay, thanks. It's about an ex boyfriend who I fantasize
about if I like, I have seen him once since,
but we purposely didn't interact. But if I like ran
into him in the street. What I fantasize about saying
is I speak ill of you every chance I get,
because I know all this person cares about is what

(24:06):
other people think of them and their fucking online persona
and like being approved and being like popular and famous
and whatever. So I know that me being like, oh,
I don't like you, and I make sure to try
to convince everyone I know of the same opinion. I
easy to do by the way I know that that
they like that takes about Therefore, also everyone who like

(24:30):
knows him sees right through him now anyway, so it's
like I don't really have to He's doing enough work
on his own to make people confused and hurt and upset.
And also, like I want to say all my other relationships,
like I've been angry right after the breakup, and then

(24:51):
as time goes on, I like genuinely have real compassion
for everyone I've ever dated, and also think like I
had a huge part in that I was young or
selfish or like just needed attention and didn't like should
have left the relationship sooner and was like attention seeking
in all these weird ways and all that. Like that,
I always feel like I have a well rounded perspective

(25:13):
on people, although I do struggle with like the black
and white thinking of like was I the victim in
this or not? And it's like I was silenced or
was I silent? Was I silenced?

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Or or was I silent? Or was I silent?

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Oh yeah, yeah exactly. So my story is that when
I was in a certain relationship that already there were
issues of me feeling like I would bring something up
and it would be treated like the most insane proposition
or like I would say like I feel like we

(25:51):
haven't been having sex recently, like can we talk about that?
And it was like what, like okay, Psycho. There was
so much of that like okay, or like I don't
know what you're talking about. Like it just was like
a pattern of like wait, what are you talking about?
I'm like not having that experience at all, and then
me feeling like completely alone in the relationship because I

(26:12):
was like wait, am I am I crazy? Like actually
it was just at the arastour this weekend and Taylor
Swift played the song Tolerate Tolerate It, which was my
breakup song for this particular breakup, because there's that lyric
that says, if it's all in my head, tell me now,
tell me I've got it wrong somehow. That's how I
felt like the whole time. I was like, in a

(26:34):
one way, I was like I want to believe him
that it's all in my head, because then that means
I can still be with him. And I was genuinely
in love with him. I was completely open heartedly in
love with him. That's the other thing, too, is like.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
You also thought when we met this person. I just
want to say this as an outsider, I thought, oh,
you're going to marry this person, and how great for
you because this is such a caring, thoughtful person. And
I just want to say that because you were love
bombed but continue.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's important too, because well
I'll talk more about that after. But anyway, so I
feel like, of course I'm a flawed person and I
have like mental illness and my OCD and whatever, but
it's like this relationship too. I also feel I don't
really like regret any of my behavior. There's nothing that
I'm like, wow, that was fucked up that I did that,

(27:21):
Whereas again, all my other relationships, even my most recent one,
there's tons of stuff that I'm like, Okay, that was
actually fucked up that I did that, Like that was
like my fault. That fight was my fault. I don't
know why I did this that whatever. This relationship that
I'm telling the story about, like, I genuinely am like, wait,
that was like the best version of myself, and I
always was like working on it and trying to, Like

(27:43):
I just it's so shocking.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
So anyway, you were trying to lift a couch that
both people need.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
You need two people for on your own.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Were also I was like so unconditionally loving of him too,
Like I remember one time, like someone made a comment
about like the outfit he was wearing, and I was like,
I love what he wear, like I don't care, like
I whatever, if he wanted to fucking dress as a
clown and walk down the street, I would be like,
I love that. Cool, live your life. That's how like
obsessed I was with this person anyway. So at the time,

(28:14):
so our relationship was already like turbulent, even though at
the beginning it was like this amazing romance word the
most in love ever. And then it was like slowly
I was like noticing cracks. I will say one of
the first fights we ever got in there was a
shift in him, like a facial demeanor shift that it
was like we were in the middle of an argument

(28:35):
and he stood up in the middle of the argument
and started doing the dishes and I was like, wait,
that's like really weird. And I was like wait are you,
Like we're having a conversation, and he was like, I
don't want to talk about this, and it was like
this this moment where I was like, wait, is this
person scary? And then I was like no, put it
out of your mind. Put it out of your mind,
like it's nothing. But I remember thinking like, wait, that

(28:55):
was really weird, like he stopped in the middle of
a conversation and said nothing and started doing something else
and then yelled at me when I said like that,
like what are you doing? So anyway, I get this job.
So I was like unemployed for a really long time.
I get this job. That's like a dream opportunity.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Stream job, so exciting, like anyone by the way, a
huge deal, and.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
Like I had been looking for a really long time,
so it was like super exciting. I was supposed to
go with my ex to his family's house that weekend,
but I because I got this job and it was
on zoom, and I was worried about like Wi Fi
set up and whatever. I was like, I'm gonna meet
you there, but I can't go, like he was just

(29:41):
gonna go ahead of me because I couldn't leave, like
right away. So part of this job was like a
physical project that I had to do, like compiling all
this research and stuff, and so basically I was in
my ex's apartment and I I like had put all

(30:02):
these I had to put all these really important papers
out everywhere. So I was putting like towels down to
protect them from touching the ground. And then I went
to eat lunch. This this story is sound starting out
like you're like, what the fuck is this going to
be about? Because it's that that is what the fuck?
So I'm really stressed out. I stayed up really late

(30:24):
working on this like research stuff. I'm like tired whatever.
And then I'm like, oh, I have to eat lunch.
But there's like all these important papers everywhere, so I
have to get another towel to eat my lunch on.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
This is a New York City apartment, small, not.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
A lot of space whatever, So I go get a
towel from the closet, and honestly, when I grabbed the towel,
I thought, is this towel like have significance? Like I
was like, I feel like I remember hearing a story
about this towel. Oh, well, by the way, it's like
a towel that says like spring break on it or something.
It's like a beach towel.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
So I go sit.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Down and I'm eating tacos on this towel. I spill
guacamle onto the towel while I'm eating it, and then
I was like, wait, I feel like this towel had
some sort of weird importance, and now that I've spilled
on it, I just was like, wait, I wonder if
I should like ask about this, Like I don't know,
it's hard to explain. I just suddenly was like, I

(31:13):
need to I need to like tell him that I
spilled on this towel because I'm sort of remembering that
it's like.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Important female instinct in the words of arianomatics continue.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
So I texted the X and said, hey, sorry, I
used the pink beach towel to lay stuff down on,
and then I remembered maybe it had some special meaning.
I'm really sorry for using it without asking. Can I
wash it? Or do not wash? By the way, like
the fact that I even said I'm really sorry for

(31:46):
using it without asking. When I was like this person
I was living with this person, I felt like the
need to be like, is it okay, I'm really sorry,
Like the whole thing is weird. But it was like
I knew he was. He was so weird about like
specific things having specific meanings. Like when I moved in,
like I tried to like hang something up, so I

(32:06):
moved something that was hanging in the bathroom to like
the living room so I could hang something else up,
and he like got really upset because the thing that
was hanging in the bathroom had like special significance and
like I shouldn't have moved it. So it just like
was like I was using this towel, I had this
weird feeling. I'm like, I think this has special significance.
And then I felt the need to be like, I'm
really sorry I use this, Like what do I do?

(32:29):
He says it was my aunt's and I remember I'm like,
oh yeah, like that his aunt had passed away. So
I go, oh, I'm so sorry. Can you just put
it back? He says. I go, yes, I'm sorry, and
then he doesn't respond for hours. So I say, I'm

(32:51):
really sorry I didn't sleep because this because of this
project I'm working on and I'm not thinking clearly again
like sign of like someone who's in such a toxic
thing that I'm like, I'm really sorry I didn't sleep.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Because you love me still like you did when we
first fell in love.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
So he goes don't worry about it, and I'm like what,
I'm like, just say this is the thing. It's like
just say, oh my god, of course, like it was
an accident, no big deal. By the way, I I
here's the real truth. I didn't just put it back
because that would be insane. I watched it because I
spilled fucking guacamole on it, so like just put it back,

(33:28):
like I what anyway. But then basically I don't have
all the screenshots, so it's hard for me to remember
exactly what happened. But in my memory it was I
said this thing of like I'm really sorry. He's like,
don't worry about it, and then I think I said
are you mad? And he didn't respond for like hours.
So then I started having a panic attack. And I'm

(33:49):
like on zoom doing this job, panicking. By the way,
he knows this was my first week of this job.
He knows that I'm like tend to be someone who
like obsesses over stuff like this, and he's purposely ignoring me.
So I start having like a panic attack. Then I
had forgotten that he was visiting his parents, and I

(34:09):
felt guilty that like I was supposed to go and
I didn't, so I had ordered these pizzas for them,
like as a surprise. So then his mom text me
and she's like, oh, thanks so much for the pizza,
like here's a picture of us all eating it. And
I'm like, okay, wait, your son is like ignoring me
because of something I did that was the most human
thing you can possibly imagine, and he's treating me like

(34:30):
I'm a monster for no reason. So then I remember
being on the zoom and having to turn my camera
off and just like crying in fetal position briefly because
I was so shocked, and I talked to someone about
this because this happened again in this relationship where it
was like something happened that was like basically nothing. This

(34:50):
was the pattern. It's like something would happen that was
basically nothing, and then he would react like I had
like physically attacked his clothes, his family member, and I
like question, would.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Like both lined his grandmother yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
And then I would like question myself and like freak
out and like be like so in shock and crying
and stuff. And it's because of when someone like surprise
attacks you like that, it's basically getting like punched in
the face It's like, wait, what the fuck does happened?
Like nothing was happening, and now you're treating me like
I deserve punishment and I don't understand. So anyway, So

(35:26):
I also just.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Want to interject and say it was also punishment by
silent treatment, which I have learned since watching you go
through this is a form of emotional abuse.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, you cannot disappear off the face of the earth.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
I say that as someone who did that early on
in my relationships because I thought that was the best
way to get to.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Someone, and it is.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's the one of the meanest things you can do,
because you're leaving that person with their thoughts, You're letting
them spiral, You're letting them worry, and that is not
an okay place to That's not a trusting place to
leave a partner. I also remember when this happened, because
I remember being on set that day and receiving these
texts from you, and my first thought.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Was no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
And what I told you was, I said, anyone who
knows you, Devin, knows that you would hate to hurt anyone.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
You were not a.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Reckless person with people's feelings. If anything, you and I
will text each other spiraling about being worried that we
had offended someone. Like the fact that someone who clearly
knew you had spent time with you, lived with you,
was going to let you feel like you had significantly
hurt them in a way was to me really dark

(36:33):
because it was acknowledging that this person was okay with
you feeling pain and it was not of consequence to
them significantly what happened. And anyway, I'll let you continue,
but I just want to say that, like my reaction
was very sudden. I was actually it was one of
those experiences where I had to talk to other people
about it around me because I found it so disturbing

(36:54):
and and like, as you were gas lit, I felt like,
I've congratulations this episode I'm making all about me. But
I felt like, is anyone else seeing this? Like no,
this is crazy, this is like, oh, I know friends
like this. I like I need to I need you
guys to hear the story about a towel, And everyone
when the word towel came.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Up was like, but it was a towel.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
It was a towe like.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
You would think that you had been like by the
way I used a craft project. So I used your
mother's engagement ring and put it in a crown for myself.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
Is that okay?

Speaker 3 (37:22):
Well, by the way, it was in the towel closet
with all the other towels. It was not in a
special way.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
We don't need to add all these addendoms because it's
so insane. But I there's there's no It was not
in a box full of precious artifacts.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
You're right, And by the way, like I have precious artifacts,
I have things that, like my grandmother gave me that
are significant. I can't imagine genuinely being angry at someone
if they like accidentally broke it or something happened like
I honestly genuinely cannot imagine that at all.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
But I also can't imagine knowing it was someone's first
week of work. I've had exes who have done worse.
I've had an ex who, while my father was struggling
with his health, my father gave him a bike in
agreement that the guy would post about it. The guy
did not post about it, and my father, who again
was dealing with a health crisis, had to kind of
like urge him and follow up. And I was like,

(38:11):
can you not can you actually just show up for
my dad? And even then I did not want this
person to feel pain and just privately bitched about it
to my dad.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
But what the fuck?

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Yeah, So basically after the mom sent the pizza picture,
then he said thanks for sending the pizzas. Period that
was nice, period darkness, and then I think there was
some sort of like back and forth where I was like, wait,
what's going on, Like are you not speaking to me basically,
and he was like, I'm just like having a hard day,
and I was like, okay, what So I go to

(38:46):
s well, I called a friend, I called you, I
called the other people. I was like crying, and actually,
like my mom called me during this and I ended
up like having to tell her what was happening because
I was just like I'm so in shocked and I
don't understand what's happening anyway. So this was on April
twenty third, So the next day I was going to

(39:10):
like a baby shower. So oh, I was with a
friend all day and talked about it and like was
trying to process. Didn't hear from him all day, did
not hear from him all day, And then I was
supposed to go to his his family's house. So this
was at this point. It was like something like twenty

(39:30):
four hours we like didn't speak, and then I was
supposed to go to his family's house like that week
or that weekend, and so I texted him after not
hearing from him for a full day, Hey, hope you're
having a good day. So I'm planning to come out
there next Saturday for the night. But now it feels
like maybe I shouldn't come at all. Let me know
if I should still plan on that. I don't have

(39:52):
Tuesday off. I have Monday, so that well, whatever he goes, yes,
you should still come. You don't want to quesh Mark Monster,
I said, it seems like you're not really speaking to me,
so I would feel weird to come under those circumstances.
I think I'm thinking of going back to my parents'
house for a while. He said, sorry, I just wasn't

(40:13):
very talkative yesterday or today. I was with my grandparents
most of the day, including when you texted me, So
it was just a confusing feeling.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
The iPhone has been around for about ten years plus,
so I don't need to hear bullshit like that anymore.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
I go. So my response to that was okay. He said,
did you go to the shower or is it later?
This was like nighttime? I go, I already went an
uber home. Period. What was it like? I said, it
was fine. The last two days have been really hard,
so it was good to spend time with friends. This
is like proof of like the two way street thing.
By the way, it's like, why am I engaging in

(40:51):
this weird text dialogue? He goes, that sounds great, That
sounds great. I just said that I had really hard
two days, so I'm glad to be with friends.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
You're talking to me out of nowhere all of a sudden,
by the way, and I'm supposed to act like grateful
or like hey and just jump back into it because
like my experience of that didn't matter.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
So he goes, that sounds it's great. I go, sure, period,
he said, what do you mean by the past two
days have been hard? What's going to mean by the
past few days have been hard?

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Because it was fine?

Speaker 2 (41:19):
I was finding it confusing to spend time with my
grandparents and also look at my phone.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
I said, I don't want to text about this, okay,
So then two days no, three days later, I don't
know what happens in these three days. There was at
one point some sorty back and forth between us, but
I think we're basically like not speaking at this point,
even though we're fully in a relationship and technically live together.
He texts me, is everything okay? I said, why? He says, this.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Person no longer wants to be in a fight, by
the way, like obviously it's kind of over.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
It is everything okay? I said, why? Just checking why?
I say, just for no reason? I go, yeah, it
was kind of a weird day. Is everything okay with you? Yeah?
Why was it weird? This? This is so maddening. So
then anyway, so basically we ended up talking on the
phone about it. During the phone conversation conversation, he basically

(42:09):
told me that I could never understand what he went
through because he lost a family member and I haven't
been through that. That I have a pattern of making
things about myself that aren't about me at all, That
he was completely blindsided, like like made this was a
pattern too. It's like he would act like I had
done something that like completely shattered his world. Like he

(42:31):
basically he described it as like I sent him this
text about having spilled on the towel, and that was
like world shattering for him because of what he's been
through with this loss, and so then he was so confused.
And then I selfishly kept saying, like, are you mad
at me? What's going on? Like basically being like, I
can't believe you would repeatedly ask me if I was
mad at you when I was going through so much

(42:51):
because of what you did. And we ended up breaking
up because the same thing happened. But by the time
it happened again, it was like I was so so
done with this person. I was so done with the treatment.
I was so done with the like what, like are
you okay? Like after later on we had been in

(43:12):
a relationship for over two years, he texted me that
he was annoyed about a wedding he had to go to.
I said, wait, you're going to a wedding? Do you
have a plus one? And he said, oh, yeah, but
I didn't think you would want to go after your mom,
Carolina Barlow's mom, Denise Malone, picked me up on the
side of the road because my car broke broke down.

(43:32):
I was freaking out. I texted him saying, I'm having
a panic attack, and he said I'm at lunch, but
I can talk in two hours, and I called your mom.
She picked me up. I was like sobbing, crying, and
then again he was like, okay, sorry, what Like, I
was with friends. I don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Anyway, I was at a lunch. Ever been to one?
They're pretty important?

Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, like changing.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Events, okay. And then basically we broke up because we
went to a wedding together, which like the details of
which there's so many things that went wrong and were insane,
and I like showed up for everything, was like a
perfectly good partner whatever, doing everything. I drove him and

(44:15):
his and the other groomsmen to the wedding venue early
in the day. I'm in a different city, a different
state than I've ever been in. I like don't know
the area at all. I drive back to my hotel,
I'm getting ready.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
There's like I've had a bunch of work to do,
by the way in between this, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
It was just there was like a lot going on.
I missed the shuttle bus and there's like road closures
on the way to the wedding. So basically I realized,
I'm like, fuck, I think I'm gonna be like late
to the ceremony because there's road closures, I'm lost, it's confusing, whatever,
And I in response, was told that I had ruined

(44:51):
his night and this and this memory.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
For the most important nights of his life, which was
someone else's wedding.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
He could not speak to me on the so as
a result, he couldn't speak to me on the drive home,
he left me in the hotel and went to the
after party without me in the midst of not speaking
to me, and then he which literally I was. I
remember like laughing and being like, yeah, he's gonna go
He's going to go to the after party without me. Yep,
that makes sense. He's leaving me in the hotel alone

(45:17):
and not speaking to me, got it, that makes sense.
So then he the next day in the car said
he couldn't speak to me the whole ride home because
of how I had ruined his night and how upset
he was over it. And I said, like, I felt
really uncomfortable not knowing why he was upset, to which
he said, you don't understand why I'm upset. And I

(45:39):
was like, oh, well, is it? Because I was like
fifteen minutes late to the ceremony by the way I
got there before the vows.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
This is like the towel thing though, where we feel
obliged to give to separate from my loved ones. We
feel obliged to give details to understand why this isn't
crazy when anyone with a working heart and mind will
listen to this and say, that's not okay, that's not
okay behavior, that's not okay behavior, that's not okay behavior.
I want to just again interject to say my family

(46:07):
was flabbergasted by this, even my father, who, as I
told Devin, most men like, when you explain an emotional
situation to them, will be like what wait, wait, so
who's Hannah?

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Wait who's Rachel?

Speaker 2 (46:19):
They won't even know who you're talking about, and like, well,
you need to give you more details because for men like,
emotional terrorism is like harder to understand than sudoku. And
my father listening to the story, I went, that's insane,
that's crazy. And Beth Jacob's family felt the same way,
like families were understanding this, families and.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Businesses were affected by this.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
So then I asked I was like, I'm like confused,
and he said, I'll send you an email. So I
have to read this. Thank you. I'm sorry I do
have to read this too.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
It is an iconic email. And I told Devin, even
as she was like heartbroken or not heartbroken, have just
wrecked from receiving this email and just the whiplash of
an emotionally abusive relationship. I said, Devin, this email is
objectively funny, like this is so crazy, and she said
you said, yeah, like your friends of the pod had agreed.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Okay, so the email is no subject already, no intro.
I felt the wind get sucked out of me on
Saturday when you said you weren't going to make it

(47:33):
and when you showed up late. It was a painful
and humiliating experience on what should have been a carefree
and celebratory day. Minutes before walking out to watch my
best friend get married, I see that you didn't put
enough attention or effort into making it on time. By
the way, after I drove all the groupsmen too the venue,
I went to the fucking every single event of this wedding.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
I took see the bride and groom because you thought
that was a nice way of being of service. Had
the bride's mother say that she was so glad you
were there because you were so much fun.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
Can yes, okay, you didn't put enough attention effort to
make it out of time. I've put so much thought
and energy and time and reflection over the past four months.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Lol.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
What about two and a half years that we were
together over the past four months on trying to make
every experience with you, whether it's just a regular dinner
or something more special, worth every minute of it and
reflective of how I value spending time with you. And
then on one of the biggest days I'll ever be
a part of, You're just not there. I don't understand
what happened, but it's clear to me you don't care

(48:33):
enough to get there on time. I tried my best
to put this feeling of abandonment aside. This feeling of
abandonment guy from someone who has multiple times at this
point left me with no response for over twenty four
hours and refused to speak to me. This feeling of
abandonment aside and enjoy the day as best I could,
but it will forever be stained by this, and knowing

(48:54):
that there wasn't even a reason for it, I'm incredibly
hurt I have.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Being stained by this.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Was when I laughed out because I was like, this
person has full fight, full flight from reality, time to
fly away from reality.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
By the way, knowing that there wasn't even a reason
for it, is because when I got to the wedding,
he said what happened, and I thought like the right
thing to do was to say, like I was like,
it was just a bunch of things, but like, let's
not get into it. There's no excuse. I'm just really
sorry I was late. I apologize in person, of course,
and via text like whatever. But I also was like,

(49:27):
well I got here for the vows and everything, and
people didn't even really notice I wasn't there. And then
I stayed the whole night and went would have gone
to the after party if I wasn't left.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Alone, and I was invited by my boyfriend went.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
To the wedding brunch the next day, like I'm like, okay,
like it's actually I did apologize and that should be that.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
By the way, you didn't want me at this wedding
in the first place.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Right, well that was a different wedding. But yeah, but
he didn't want me around in the first place, like
he he treated this person treated me like they didn't
want me around all the time.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
I got at Best after that at Best and tell
you may the decision to put yourself first, and then
you were abandoning them.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
So knowing there wasn't And then he said, I have
a very busy day tomorrow, but probably have time in
the evening to talk or in a full blone relationship.
So I get home, I'm freaking out. I remember Zach Booth,
friend of the pod, and I lived with tests and
at the time their home. I'm telling them this whole thing.

(50:27):
I'm like sobbing, I'm like, what the fuck is happening?
And it just it just ensued into this whole thing
where it was like he wouldn't speak to me. Then
when he did, he was like basically like okay, but
like you have to admit like that was one of
like the most selfish things that I've ever seen someone do.
And he was like he kept saying, He's like, you

(50:47):
really don't think like you did anything wrong, And he
at one point said like, I'm gonna need you to
admit that, like you did something wrong by being late,
and I was like, I was, I did I do
admit that, but I also like this is basically making
it like He's like, I can't believe you're not admitting
that you did something wrong, and I'm like, no, no,

(51:08):
but you've done ten million times worse now, like, yes,
I made a small mistake and now you've done the
worst possible thing you can do. It actually reminds me
of sand of aal being like, well, we like weren't
having sex, and she's like, right, and then you fucked
my best friend, so now you're the one. Now you're
the one who did something fucked up. Like That's how
I felt. I was like, Okay, yes I was late,
and now you've completely sucker punched me and blindsided me

(51:31):
and treated me like absolute garbage. So now you're in trouble.
Do you understand that? Which he didn't, but it it
really was effective in that I immediately was like I
can no longer be with this person. The reality set in.
I like when I broke up with him, it was
to this day like one of my proudest moments as
far as like boundaries because we were by the way

(51:53):
lol at this the day that I broke up with him,
we were supposed to meet up, we had plans to
meet up. We hadn't seen each other in a week
because he refused to speak to me, and then I
like had to go on a like bacheorette party trip whatever.
So we're supposed to hang out for the first time
in a week. He texts me that his friend happened
to be in town and actually, can we reschedule because

(52:13):
he wants to get a drink with his friend.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Even though he's made painstaking mebe me show up for you.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
As he said, me being fifteen minutes late isn't okay.
Him canceling the first time we're supposed to see each
other in a week so he can get a drink
with his friend who he sees all the time. And
I said like, no, I really need to talk and
he started being like why, like what's going on? And
I was like, I'm at work, but I would really
like to talk to you in person after work. And
then he called me repeatedly when I was at work
in my office, so I had to step outside. It

(52:43):
was a fifteen minute conversation.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Sorry, but you need to talk. He needs to talk
to you, and there's no choice about to talk to him,
even though.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
But then he leaves me for twenty four hours at
a time completely unresponsive, So I stepped out of my office.
Fifteen minute conversation. I was like, I'm done with this relationship.
I'm not interested in discussing further why. He was like,
but what happened? But I don't understand, Like how did
you decide this? And I said, he said, are you
something like, oh, are you just like making this like
Rath's decision? And I was like, no, I've put endless

(53:12):
amounts of effort into this relationship and into this decision.
I will not be changing my mind and I'm not
interested in discussing further. And he's like, but please, please,
can we just meet up in person? I was going
to tell you that I realized I was wrong about
the whole wedding thing, and I really just please meet up,
please whatever, And I said, I won't be there's no
point in meeting up because I won't be changing my life.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
And even going to meet up this part I think
about all the time. How he was like, I was
going to say, you were right, and it's like, no,
you weren't even going to meet up with me.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
You canceled last minute whatever, So then we broke up.
Then I think he maybe said like sent like one thing,
being like can we please talk? I said, no, I'm
not interested in speaking with you. Then I get another
email like a week later or maybe this was I
don't know when this was, But afterwards I get an email, uh,
subject line understand it, Devin. I want you to know

(54:01):
that I understand where you're coming from. For most of
the past week and weekend, I reflected on why I'm
committed to loving you, strengthening our relationship, and rebuilding the
trust that it needs. And the biggest part of that
drives all of those things is understanding. The very thought
itself of working with you to arrive at a goal
that we can communicate with each other is enough to
inspire my confidence in our relationship. We no longer have

(54:21):
a relationship, and it's one of the things I promised
you when we got back together that I would work
every day to walk and step with you and bring
us closer to our goals, whatever they may be. I
respect the process by which you made your decision. As
someone who loves you, cares wholly about you, as you've
clearly proven over and over again, and wants to touch
every part of our lives together, I am asking that
you would be open to having a conversation it would

(54:43):
mean a lot to me. I said no, and then
a week later I got another email saying basically like, Hey,
you completely blindsided me and I'm really confused. I can't
believe you left me with no explanation of I'm like,
be it couldn't have been a more clear explanation. Literally,
it was something happened and I'd had enough and I left.
Like He's like, so, I'm confused, Like you completely left

(55:05):
me out of nowhere.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
Gas Lighting is used so often, but it's an it's
his last like parade gaslighting you by being like what
you know, it's his last row of like what like
why are you being this way?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
And I'm sure, by the way, I'm sure that's the
narrative now for him. From him to other people is
like hundred Yeah, she left me completely alone with no explanation.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
And now I have trust issues because of that.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
In fact, I'm guessing that the next person or the
current person, I don't know if he's dating someone when
he mistreats her, you are the excuse.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
I totally agree with you, and I think the one
thing I wanted to say about this whole relationship saga
that happened is that I think, like what came out
of it is. First of all, I started going to
a therapist for the first time who I like went
into like I basically was like, clearly I have a pattern.
The fact that I ended up in a relationship like

(55:56):
that is because of something that's missing in me, even
though of course it could happen to anyone. I want
to understand why I was in a relationship like that,
why I continually tried to earn someone's love who clearly
wasn't willing to give it to me freely. And I
want to understand that this therapist has completely changed my life.
It's been one of the hardest like years of my

(56:17):
life recovering from that relationship. But it's also or two years,
I guess. But it's also like really going to make
me the person that I want to become, which is
someone who like, loves and cares for myself. That being said,
the other most important thing for me is to learn
how to have self compassion from this, because I did

(56:37):
repeatedly think, like over and over again, like how did
I end up there? How did I stay? Why did
I say? Like that's insane, it's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to
be the type of girl who was in a relationship
like that. A lot of times when I tell stories
about the relationship, I get questions like wait, why did
you stay? A lot of times in the times i've
dated since then, I've gotten like responses, which sometimes are
like in fair game or whatever, like family and friends

(57:01):
being like, oh, Devin makes bad choices with men, like oh,
Devin can't be trusted with, like her pickers off and stuff,
And it's sometimes it's like yes, like that. I make
self deprecating jokes like that, But at the end of
the day, this person was an extremely charming narcissist and
anyone could have been like anybody could have been charmed
by them, anybody could have been love bombed by them.

(57:22):
Where I want to work on is the fact that
I stayed and continue to try to work through something
that was clearly so detrimental to me. But I don't
question myself for getting into that relationship because I think
it could happen to anyone. I think it's like same
with Arianna and Tom. It's like in the beginning of
the relationship, people are like WHOA, but like she he
cheated on Christian with her, and then she thought he

(57:43):
wasn't going to do it again. Yeah, because he loved
bombed her. Like, he doesn't seem charming to me, but
he's a narcissistic, charismatic person, and that's what happens. Like,
anybody can get sucked in by a narcissist, anybody can
get love bombed. Anybody can get involved in a situation
that turns out to be harmful. And I at that
time was not able to be in my own experience

(58:04):
enough to like take care of myself and make the
decision to leave. And that's because of family stuff and
family history and a lot of attachment stuff that I'm
working through. But I don't judge myself for being wrapped
up in a situation like that, And I don't judge
Ariana at all. And I do judge Kristen a little bit.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
But wait, why only because she I'm a dowdy apologist.
Now I used to hate her. I used to hate her,
I'm now apologized.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Listen. It's interesting and it's hard because I've gotten into
this debate recently where it's like, Okay, yes they do
all cheat on each other, Yes, Kristin slept with Jack
Stotsy's ex boyfriend in the same room where Tom was
sleeping the other room.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
To be fair, they just watched Drive. It's a pretty
hot movie. They had no other choice.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
But I think the thing is that I think the
reason why this is so much worse is because, first
of all, Arianna is like one of the least harmful
people on the show. She seems like a genuinely good
person who like really cared about Tom and really cares
for her friends like Raquel and stands up for her.
And this was a nine year long relationship and he

(59:19):
cheated on her for over seven months with one of
her closest friends. It's like every element makes it worse.
And I think Tom fooled us. I think Jacks is like.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
So tom cooolery more like Don.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Foolery going on, because it's like Tom can really present
as like like he knows how to He's much more
subtle of a narcissist than Jack's.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Yes, this is true.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
I wanted to say something which I think applies to
your situation. And I really like what you had to
say about self compassion. And I still judge myself with
relationships literally that I was in twelve years ago so
I think that it is maybe time to let go
of that. But I even though I think my relationship
when I was twenty one was harder to get fooled by,

(01:00:02):
let's just say there wasn't. Really it wasn't a love
being love bombed. It was maybe the reverse of someone
repeatedly telling me they didn't know how they felt about me.
But something Arianna said when she's been asked if she
had any suspicions is that she said I was trusting.
I was trusting on my friends, I was trusting on
my partner, and I don't think that there should be

(01:00:25):
judgment for being trusting. I think that that is an
instinct and it's sort of like if your house was
broken into. I am not going to judge myself for
trusting that people would not do that to me. I'm
just going to judge myself for thinking that my purse
won't get ripped out of my off my shoulder. I

(01:00:46):
really think that, like, we can trust that other people
are going to be good when we get to know
someone unless they show us otherwise, which you know, besides
the fact that Raquel was an idiot, like, it was
very clear that Ariana didn't think that this was something
she would do. I don't think she should be faulted
for that, and I think it's interesting, like, of course,
the famous line that Santivale says in the finale where

(01:01:06):
he's like, if she had just followed me, all she
had to do was follow me to know I wasn't
going to Schwartz's house. I mean, so evil, it's actually fascinating.
But yeah, we don't. We can have self compassion when
to use your situation, you were choosing to work hard
at a relationship. You were choosing to give relationship another chance,
and you shouldn't be judged for that, and you shouldn't

(01:01:28):
judge yourself for that because you had fallen in love
and you wanted to fight for it. And I do
think a lot of relationships are worth fighting for. And
then when you realize that the other person isn't holding
their side and that you're carrying too much weight, that
you are doing all of the you know, work on yourself,
which we all need, and you know, different degrees and
varying degrees rather, you know, that's when we realized that, like,

(01:01:51):
maybe the fight's not worth it because we're killing ourselves
over it. But I don't think there should be judgment,
And I think that it was easy for me watching
your relationship to be like resentful at you for staying,
just like I'm resentful at my grandmother for not leaving
my captain Jim, because I cared about you and because

(01:02:13):
I thought, like, it's so clear that you deserves better.
But in the meantime, if I had put myself in
your shoes more, I would have seen, like, no, you
had for the first time been treated like the first
priority in a relationship, and it was really hard to
pull away from that because and I know for myself
and a lot of relationships, sometimes it's like a ship
has left its harbor metaphorically, and you're like, I just

(01:02:34):
want to get back to the safe harbor.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
I just want to get back to the harbor. I
know it's there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
I know it's there. I know this person is capable
of love. I know we are capable of having so
much fun together. How do we get back there? And
it's a very hard truth to digest that, like, maybe
we won't right, and maybe I can't pull us back
there on my own. Maybe all of the like you know,
my hard work will be for nought and that's really hard.

(01:03:00):
But I'm really glad you share the story because I
do think it's really helpful and it was really profound
to watch you just be in the words that you
said to me when you broke up with him, Bye bitch.
I was like, I will never forget this because I
was really scared that you were going to marry this
person and I was gonna have to spend time with
them selfishly. I uh was getting very angered with them privately,

(01:03:25):
and I was worried for you because I know what
you deserve, just like you know what I deserve.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
Well, I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
I just want to do a quick update at VPR
reunion to end this on a lighter note.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
Okay, you go, I'm gonna take I'm gonna take a
seat and listen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
Okay, take a seat, little girl, Little girl. I watched
the first chapter of the VPR reunion. I really enjoyed
James Kennedy and Laala. I thought they really performed. I
liked that Katie Maloney didn't immediately accept Sheena's apology, because,
as Sheena has proved time and time again, she is

(01:04:02):
a guy's girl, and her basically apologizing for taking Schwartz's side.
I could only take so much of it. In listen,
Sheena has done good. She ended our finale with a bang.
She said all of the right things. She knows she
was in the wrong, but I still am mad at
her for how she handled the Schwartz and Katie situation.
Ariana looks like fire. Tom Sandoval looks like a Vegas magician,

(01:04:25):
as he always does.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Raquel Levis was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
One hundred yards away in a trailer watching the whole thing.
This is when I was like, Bravo's genius. We are
watching her watch the whole thing. It's brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
But she also is so empty headed that her reactions
are basically like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Her reactions to me watching the show, Like there's no
emotional involvement with herself. Like it's literally me eating hummus
and pita in bed watching the show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
It's less me watching the show because I get angry
watching that. Wait what and she's just like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Dude, She's like shaking her head. You're like, she could
have been watching one hundred and one Dalmatians as a little kid.
Like that is sort of the facial exa Bressian, like
when a little kid is stucked into the iPad. I
did appreciate Lala Kent saying this is a dangerous person
and Lisa vander Pump saying, Lala, you can't say that.
You can't say that, obviously, Lisa just cares about her businesses,

(01:05:13):
and Lala says, yes, I can, because someone who is
sleeping next to you is capable of doing that. That
is a dangerous person, which I thought was very accurate
and profound.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
And then I liked when.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
I watched the clips so many times when James to
Tom goes ugly fuck and Andy is like me and
He's like, no, you handsome, He's an ugly fuck, and
Lisa Vanner Pump's like, you're gonna have to go into
the dressing room and James says, I'm gonna go.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Get a time out.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
I'm gonna get a spank in after this, I'm gonna
get a spank in, and Lola Kent goes he likes it,
which did make me want to I'm so curious about
Lala Kent and James sex capades, Like, I'm so curious
how what that sex life was like, Like is James
good in bed.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Superly in love with each other? But I also think
that Lala presents as someone who like has never actually
enjoyed sex because she objectivized herself.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
To me, yeah, that is actually a very good point.
She she seems like someone very Julia Fox.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Is she, you know?

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Julia Fox in the interview said that she didn't like
having sex like Lala, seems like she's lived a life.
Clearly has her faked tits look really great and sometimes
I want to get fake boobs like hers. But I'm
very excited, boyut the re union. I'm excited for what's
to come, you know, very much. In the vein of
what you went through, Ariana at one point says that
Tom Standival, when cameras weren't around, would yell at her

(01:06:32):
for forty five minutes straight. And again this is someone who,
like Devin and I in a lot of relationships, said
I would have followed you anywhere. I was protecting you.
I was protecting she was protecting his image. And yet
he wasn't even caring about the relationship. He was throwing
her under the bus without her knowing it. Sotally very
excited to see what's to come. James is clearly doing

(01:06:55):
cocaine during this reunion, which someone had to point out
to me that maybe.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Someone streamed I don't know who it was, Lalla or
someone was like Adderall.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
I also think it's funny that they won't even let
him speak. I mean, it makes me so happy whenever
Tom speaks whatever, no one wants to hear from you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
It's so funny to me.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
It's like, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
A lot of people are questioning whether or not this
is true, like whether or not this is just like
a ploy for reality TV. And I'm like, if this
was a ploy for reality TV, they would at least
let him speak, they would let the man talk. No
one cares what you think.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
I also like James, like where like the fucking evolution
of these characters on the show are so amazing. James,
who once called Katie Maloney fat in like his turn
of evil alcoholic, he now being like a nice coke
head maybe doing Adderall now. When Schwartz says you're a
troll about Katie writing comments about Joe, James goes, that's rude.

(01:07:52):
You're being rude, and I go, James is sexually attractive
to me. I actually can't like, he is like one
of my celebrity crushes. And I mean that's at the
bottom of my vagina.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
He is, well, I'm excited to see how the reunion proceeds.
I'm excited for a new Ultimatum season on Netflix. I
have to get on Netflix account now that I'm not
allowed to use my mom's anymore, because corporations are evil.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
But I think we have a lot to uh, we
have a lot of unpack, a lot to.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Unpack next time.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
I love you, Devin, love you Caroled.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
I want you sin so umantic, lovely baby.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Don't leave me, haggin.

Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
I want true