Aaron Goldenberg - Homeschool, Conversion Therapy, and Finally Coming Out

Aaron Goldenberg, actor, comedian, and (hilarious) content creator, joins Lola and Meagan to talk about being gay as a Christian child, what it was like learning Bill Gothard’s IBLP homeschool curriculum as a boy, and how his parents discovered his queerness and sent him to conversion therapy.

He talks about Exodus International, a now-disbanded “ex-gay” Christian ministry that taught that you could heal your gayness (until its president apologized to the gay community and said it didn’t work), doubling down on his belief that he could force himself to be straight, and how getting sober finally forced him to confront the truth and accept himself for who he really was.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me?

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Do you trust me?

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Right? Ever lead you a story?

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me. The podcast about Colts extreme belief
manipulation from two unfortunately straight women who've actually experienced it.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Today our guest is Aaron Goldenberg, comedian, performer, and survivor
of Bill Gothard's IBLP curriculum as well as conversion therapy.
Aaron is going to share with us what it was
like growing up as a boy with the IBLP homeschool curriculum,
how he tried to defend Christianity in public school, and
what the religious framework of male dominance was like from

(00:45):
a male perspective.

Speaker 4 (00:47):
He is an amazing actor and comic. It was so
cool to talk to him. He's also going to tell
us about how his parents discovered he was gay and
pushed him into conversion therapy and this so called ex
Gay conference led by the now disbanded Exodus International, How
he pursued celibacy and recovery from his queerness for many years,

(01:08):
including almost marrying a woman, and how getting sober forced
him to question the teachings of his youth and embrace
his sexuality.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, I love I love him. His videos are so funny,
so talented. Yeah, he's going to be a huge Sorry,
I agree. I mean he's already halfway there. He's already yeah, yeah,
I mean, he's going to be on The Hunting Wives,
he's going to release a book. He's just he's it's
all happening. It's also happening.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Boo boop boop boop bee boop boop boop.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Cults a good song, Megan before we talk to Aaron.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yes, please tell me your culties thing this week?

Speaker 4 (01:48):
Okay, okay, this regards the two by two cult that
I was raised in. A person released an article entitled
Secretive Church under investigation by the FBI holds annual convention
in York, Nebraska.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Okay, okay, And it's a article.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
That contains, you know, the nine hundred accusations of sexual
abuse and just some kind of crazy quote. One of
the workers actually pointed to the story of Joseph and
the Bible, claiming Joseph was falsely accused by a woman
of trying to get her to lay down with him.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Yeah, so it's not a flattering article. And this is
when the church gets really deceitful. In my opinion, the
person who wrote this article moved jobs.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
They moved to a different newspaper.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
So the two y two workers have said that they
told so many lies in this article that they were fired.
So somebody reached out to the editor and to the
journalist and they were both like, oh no, I just
wanted to move to a different city and work at
this paper. And then was like, no, he wasn't fired.
And it's just so frustrating how this misinformation and these

(03:13):
little lies like and we see it with so many
people in power, just like, no, it wasn't that.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
It's just justification after justification and.

Speaker 4 (03:22):
Mass confusion and just like, oh, okay, I guess it
is a light like how can write right? You know,
if you are willing to lie, you can just like
lean into coincidences and I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
I mean, it's always there's always an explanation, and it
like yeah, precisely, it doesn't matter if it's real, doesn't
matter as long as it gives people something to ease
the cognitive dissonance.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
And it's so frustrating.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
Exactly so yes, if you were experience, which we talk
about cognitive dissonance in this episode a lot and a
way that I found and like. But people will go
to extreme lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance, which is one
of the most uncomfortable feelings in the human body. And
so yeah, I think a lot of people are just like,

(04:11):
oh cool, he got fired, this isn't true this and
just move on.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
And I hate it. So that's my cultiest thing of
the week. What about you? What's yours?

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Well, I kind of have too, because one is fun
and also a plug for my album that's out.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's called Crab Pleaser. Go listen to it.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
First album ever. I did an album release party which
you came to Hell Yeah, and everybody did wear white.
We had a ton of people wearing white, and we
did have some silly baptisms to go with one of
the songs that is about Believe and Megan actually got
baptized everybody by my friend Shane.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
I sure did, and I've never I've never been baptized before.
Shane really looked like he was a church leader. I
know how he did that. But yeah, the two by
twos are very very serious about you never getting baptized
until you're like old enough to really I think it's
like sixteen that is when they let you start doing it.
And so they don't baptize you as a baby. They

(05:12):
don't baptize you after your dad like the Mormons. So
it actually felt like a kind of taboo thing to do.
But there was just this like performance that you were
doing where they're like, somebody get baptized, and I was like,
oh gosh, like this performance needs to go on, and
nobody's jumping in the pool. So and where we went,
and it did feel like, oh my gosh, why is

(05:34):
this like taboo?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Am I gonna get in trouble?

Speaker 4 (05:37):
And then I was like no, there's so many like
layers to my you know, once you think you've healed,
I don't know. But then I'm just gonna say this.
I got baptized at this beautiful fun party I called
an uber and this actually really nice car came and

(05:57):
it was.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Like the windows were down.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
The already was up in the hills kind of near
where I live, and it was this really cool, weird
ride back to my house and I was just like
very wet and the windows were down.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
And it was like I felt like i'd actually been
I don't.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Know, like you'd overcome an obstacle from your religious.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
Yeah, it just felt like it felt like a beautiful
little moment.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
So anyway, that's all. That's so nice. I'm so glad.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah, okay, so yes, the album absolutely slaps. It's like
pop superstar meets ari Astor meets like phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
It's just phenomenal. So thank you. Ever go listen, thank you,
And I'm just gonna quickly.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
I would feel remiss not mentioning, even though by the
time this comes out it'll be a couple weeks after
the fact.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Not mentioning the fact that Jimmy.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Kimmel was pulled from the air because of Donald Trump
wanting him to be pulled from the air, which is
very foreboding and scary. And then Donald Trump also posted
he's designating Antifa as a major terrorist organization. Except Antifa's
not an organization. It just means anti fascist, which means
anybody who says that they are against him, believing that

(07:11):
he's a fascist, could be designated a terrorist. That's one
of the many culty things in our government at the moment. Yeah,
love that for us.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
I love it. Yeah, I mean, it's a scary time.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
And yeah, comedians are, don't they have like gestures rights.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
Gester's rights, Yeah, because well, yes the king would like
but the king only wants gesters that make him look yet.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
So yeah, but it's just like even in you know,
medieval times, the gester could sometimes you know, make radical
points and the king wouldn't immediately be had them because
they had the gestures rights.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
I don't know enough about that, but I would guess
there are some kings who were like, hey, that gester
wasn't flattering to me, So I've just with his head
with his many dead gester Oh dead Gusters is a
fun uh fan name.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Anyway.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, freedom of speech on all sides is something that
we need and it's important.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
And I think Aaron.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
Is the epitome of somebody who's really leaning into their
authentic voice.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Shall we talk to them? I love it. Let's do it.
Welcome Aaron Goldenberg to trust me in person.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Thank you for having me in person.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Oh my god, thanks for being here in person. After
a plane and.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
No sleep, oh yeah that's a story. Yeah, I am
not good with sleeping on planes at all. And yeah,
for whatever reason, my body woke me up at two
am on the East coast, which means that I was
awake at eleven pm on the west coast here.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
So you're floating in the studio right, delirious.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
I have no idea what I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
That's exciting.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Actually, I know, I know, like, do I remember anything
from my childhood? We might just gab about our outfits.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Would you just sleep deprivation on this podcast?

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Oh yeah, very effective, very tool totally.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Anyway.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Any who, Okay, start off by telling us about your
upbringing and what religion your family was.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Sure, okay, that's why is it such a loaded question?
So a big part of my upbringing was ib l P,
which is the Institute for Basic Living Principles. I blocked
it that a big part of it was that. And

(09:48):
so we are one of those families that had a
lot of kids. I'm wanna beleven wow. And it was
very much, kind of at far too young of an age,
drilled into us that like, families that have more kids
are superior in God's eyes because you're having more people
to potentially be Christians, to spread God's word even further

(10:13):
and all that stuff. It's called the quiverful. Yes, OK,
we just did an episode on somebody came up to me,
or not came up to me. Somebody was talking to
me the other day and said, you have a large family.
Are you quiverful? I was like, how do you know?

Speaker 4 (10:27):
You're coming a little more? Yeah, a little bit more
in the zeit guys where people are like quiver fault
and you're like, whoa Were you a homeschooled baby for sure?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh my god until tenth grade? Oh well I got
bad I in tenth grade. I or leading up to
that time. I think my mom was just overwhelmed at
home with that many kids, children, which are always always
a young child and always pregnant. I'm number two one

(10:59):
of you.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Oh so they were like, let's get him out of
the house.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, kind of. I think we like expressed a desire
to go to school, and also a lot of our
friends from church were starting to go to high school,
whereas they had been homeschooled for most of their childhood.
And it was at first it was like a very
controversial thing, but it was also like, you know, put
on the full armor of God and you'll be safe

(11:24):
from all the influences of the.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
Meanwhile, first day of school, you're like smoking a cigarette
in mud.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah right, exactly. I immediately started giving somebody a blowjob.
I funny enough or embarrassingly enough. One of my first
days of my tenth grade science class was biology, and
our teacher very God's Not Dead style if you're familiar
with that movie, I don't know. Okay, God Bless you,

(11:57):
God's not Dead. As a Christian and like extremist evangelical, yes,
about like an atheist professor who first day of class,
he's like, I need everybody to write down on her
sheet of paper. Your only assignment for today is to
write down God is dead. And our main character, who's
very Christian, is like, I can't believe they're making me

(12:20):
do this in college. This is crazy. And so he
writes God's not dead and the conflict begins.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
It's like serving goodwill, hunting but stupid.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Just the dumbest. Yeah yeah, yeah. If Matt Damon was
an absolute idiot, yeah yeah. So I had been prepped
and primed, like you know, in your science class they
might say evolution, and if they do, here are the
talking points. So I like, study exactly what I wanted
to say, and she did kind of like first day

(12:54):
class thing, be like, so here's the thing. In this class.
We teach science based on proven you know, studied blah
blah blah, and we do teach evolution. Does anybody have
a problem with that? And I was like, this is
my moment. So I raised my hand. I was like actually,
and I have no idea what I said because I

(13:16):
was like, I was like shaking as I did it too.
I like, you know, knew that this was my moment
to shine for Jesus and this is like my first
day of school impression. And all I do remember is
that she kind of said things I wasn't expecting, and
so I got shut down. I was like, yeah, cool,
talk about whatever you want. I was like, oh God,

(13:41):
I didn't have an answer for that. And I felt
like such a failure because I felt like my job
was to convert everybody around me, including the teachers, day one.
On day one, I needed to be the straightest, most Christian,
and I failed at all of those.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
We talk about this a lot on here, but there's
just this really huge divide between people who are living
very literally in these church states of mind, because like
I'm at school and I'm like fighting for the Lord.
And it's like most people are just their recess.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Like, what do you mean you weren't five years old
and obsessed with that there are twenty demons in your bedroom?
Yeah like that, there's spiritual warfare going on for your soul. Yeah,
that was just my daily life.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
If I were to read the scenes in the Sweet
Valley High books where they kissed and feel something then
the demons.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
See that was my you'all had demon fear yours was hell? Yeah,
we didn't have demons.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Know, yeah, hell was? I mean Jesus. I so I
feel like I was raised in multiple like cult or
cult adjacent things all at once because I'm an overachiever basically,
so Messianic Judaism in a way, it was just like
an offset of Judaism that believes that Jesus is the

(15:16):
Messiah and has come and whatever. We did that because
grew up with a Jewish dad, and then IBLP came
into the picture. That really really I think shaped the
majority of our daily life and everything as well as
went started going after Temple to an Assemblies of God church,
which also has like very very authoritarian strict leadership, is

(15:41):
always right kind of kind of the Henecostal Pentecostal. Yes, yes, okay, yeah, yeah,
I remember very distinctly a friend of mine at church
one day they explained that their family was going to
start going to a different church, and I remember this
sadness that I felt. I was like, oh my God,

(16:04):
I can't believe they're not a Christian anymore. Looking back now,
it's like, no, they're just going somewhere else. But we
were so like programmed to believe like this is the
only and right one.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
That was when you were an assembly of the sect
of God.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
But within our Assemblies of God church, the IBLP teachings
had like sort of invaded, which is the whole point
of IBLP to like get an doctrine.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
All churches across America everywhere.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, we've talked to some people who were raised with
IBLB IBLP God who can say it. The curriculum as well,
and you know, interacted with Bill Gothard and on savory ways.
But the girls were always taught, of course, very little
because their role is to grow up and have children.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
What was the boy curriculum?

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Like? Woof, so a few things I remember specifically. It's
just like everything for for any gender was just shame
and like blind obedience to authority. The men were meant
to like just grow up to be these leaders and

(17:13):
so things like studying the Bible and I guess in
weird ways like practicing exerting authority in different ways. So scary.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
So one of the things is basically like the umbrella
principle with IBLPS, So like the first umbrella is Jesus,
then it's the dad, mom, and children under here. So
basically you would go by those levels and depending who
was the oldest at home. So if like it was

(17:46):
an oldest boy at home, like you're in charge of
the authority figure and not just like hey can you
watch the kids for a couple of hours, Like no,
you have permission to spank them. You have permission to
like discipline and oh my god, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Or you were and oldest, did you. I was get
a little drunk on that.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Power, I mean really fucking unfortunately, yeah, because it was
like we just did your Yeah of course you were children, Yeah,
I do. I do like to think it was the
fun sibling Like I wasn't like always beating my siblings
trety thing. But honestly, in talking to my siblings about

(18:23):
a lot of this stuff. When Shiny Happy People came
out on Amazon, which if nobody's heard of it, that's
a great way to like get a big lesson on IBLP.
When it came out, our sibling group chat like blew
the fuck up, because in a way we didn't realize
all the aspects of our life that were stemming from IBLP.

(18:47):
We just knew it as our life, right, And so
I was even watching it again just in preparation for
the interview because I knew it would like make things fresh,
and I was just like, oh, right, it's it's Uh.
There's one quote from it where it basically said IBLP
makes every father into a cult leader and every home

(19:09):
into an island. So they are the be all, end all,
and for the rest of your life. It's not until
you turn eighteen or anything like that. Like our dad
was very very adamant that, you know, decisions even when
you're into adulthood should be run by me. Wow, if

(19:31):
you're planning to marry somebody like that needs to be you.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Know, even for the sons.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Like it got to the
point later on that I was in my mid twenties
and I had not yet moved out because I felt
like I couldn't.

Speaker 5 (19:47):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
I felt like if I did, I would let the
family down. I would, uh, because there's so many responsibility
I have.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
You're like half running the house at this point, imagin
there's I mean, when you say your sibling g chat,
that's a bigger group chat than I have.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah, friends with friends.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
It's a bigger group chat than I can keep up with.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah. Like that's a big group of people.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
And I'm sure that your responsibility wasn't I mean, it
was real, you know, like you needed to help them,
sure in any ways, and.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Then also like trying to live our own lives like
in my mid twenties. Of course I had a job
and I had, you know, my own extracurricular activities and
all that shit. But it was it's so clear to me,
especially in hindsight, like the level of trapped that I
not just felt, but that I was, like I was
on fun fact, my parents divorced after having the eleven kids.

(20:39):
I know, they divorced, and that is where things really
really started changing in her house. Like our mom woke
the fuck up. She put all the kids in school.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Wow, And okay, Mom.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
That I think was like the best thing for them,
because I think they were just exposed to think at
such a younger age that I was not. I had
already been programmed like all of these things are evil,
watch out for gay people or people that listen to
rock music. I think by going to school at a
younger age, they still had a chance, and I think

(21:16):
that proved to be the case with how well adjusted
most of them are in ways that I'm like. I mean,
one of my younger sisters, she's maybe young number seven
or something like, has a master's degree and is in
a high position at work and gets things like paid
time off. I was like, when I was your age,
I was felt trapped at home responsible for all these

(21:42):
things that I definitely was not anytime I would try
to set boundaries because we were not taught boundaries. That's
a big thing in IBLP, Like anything the authority figure
says is not just what you're supposed to do, but
it's God's will. So if you're disobeying them, you're disobeying God.
So yeah, just to see how they have flourished and thrived.

(22:05):
I also really really love that part of the reason
my dad had so many kids is to raise all
these soldiers for Christ. And now I think ten out
of the eleven of US vote Democrat, and like half
of us are gay. So just like the devil, Why sorry.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Daddy, is your dad still in that all these strict movements?

Speaker 2 (22:32):
You know what, I don't talk to them. I have definitely,
like had a clean cut from that. It's one of
the best decisions I ever made. It got to a
certain point where I asked myself, if this person was
not blood related to me and just a random adult
that I knew from church or from work or whatever,
would I want them in my life? Would I want

(22:52):
them giving me unsolicited advice or governing me or instructing
me on how to do things. No, I would think
they're a crazy person, right yeah, I would think they're
awful and manipulative and you know, insert descriptive word here.
That was just a moment for me where I didn't think, oh,
I'm going to cut them off for the rest of

(23:13):
my life. But it's been seven years at this point,
I and I do think about it sometimes. I'm like,
do I want to reintroduce that that relationship And the
answer right now is no, Like, I'm good.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
If that's what's healthy. That's totally for you, Like, that's
totally fair.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Can we go back in tie sure and talk about
your relationship with your sexuality and how your parents responded
to that.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Let's yeah, and how you discuss context for this.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, how I discovered it? I honestly, honestly, girls, I
felt very really gay from a really young age. Yeah,
like before the age of ten, before pubrety or anything
like that, like seven, I was, I is, for sure
like attracted to my guy friends in a different way

(24:04):
than girls. And I knew that prior to like knowing
what sex or sexuality or anything was. Like, I just
knew that I wanted to see what their bodies look like, right,
And so yeah, from a young age, I was like
experimenting with friends. But it was also very very clearly

(24:27):
taught within the church iblp all that that like it
was not only a sin and you know, demons and
all that, but also that it like being gay wasn't real,
Like it's not a real thing.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh wait, tell me.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's not a real thing, because what it is is
like it's it's a sin and it's a choice. So
equal to saying like if you commit adultery, are you
an adulterer. No, you're just a person that's committed adultery.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
I see.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
So being gay is like the sin of gay. Right,
you're not identified by that thing. You've just done that thing,
and Jesus can heal it and take it away and
whatever it is. So before I really knew what I
was doing, I knew that it needed to be secret.
I definitely was a bit more of a flamboyant and

(25:19):
artistically drawn young kid. I loved to dance. I knew
from like the age of four that I wanted to
be an actor. My favorite movie at like a really
young age was The Little Mermaid, Like just very very like.
If I saw that kid, I would be like, Oh,
they're gay. I hope their parents accept them. And for me,

(25:43):
the people that I was surrounded with, whether it's my
parents or other people, I think we're in like an act.
I don't think it's just like denial. I think it's
like an act of denial, Like we need to explain
to this child why they're not gay. So something along
the line of, oh, you like Ariel, Is it because
you think she's really pretty and you want to marry her?

(26:05):
Is that why? That's why?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Right?

Speaker 2 (26:08):
And then like really really intentionally asking, like what girls
do you have a crush on?

Speaker 1 (26:12):
You know?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
So I was programmed to know that I needed to
answer these questions a certain way, right, And oh, you
like you like to dance just like David dance before
the Lord, you know, the manliest biblical figure there. Yeah,
praise God, bless him.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
When did you become aware that there was dissonance between
how you felt and what you were supposed to.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Do or feel.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think at a certain age I realized that my
friends started dating girls and I was not the one
girl that I liked at church. I asked her out.
She said no. Also, dating and courtship and all that
is a whole other thing with IBLP, Like it's you
don't ask somebody on a date unless you believe that

(26:57):
you're meant to marry them. So I was like, she's
the prettiest, most popular girl at church, I'm probably meant
to marry her.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
I love your math, yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
And then I remember, like such a toxic masculinity reflexive
thought for me, but it was how men were around
me was when she said no, I felt not just
a normal amount of rejection, but I felt angry I
felt like she had done something wrong by saying no
to me at thirteen, which is so creepy.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean, don't you notice
that if you reject a man, the only way he'll
accept it as if you're like, I have a boyfriend.
I've never rejected, not even that. Yeah, that's just my
like so that I don't get murdered. I'm like, I
have a boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, it's true. I'm trying to be better about being honest. Well,
I mean that just yeah, it doesn't It doesn't work
for me only if it's someone who I know is
not going to kill me, right right, which right, you
don't know, you don't ever know. I don't ever have
a good reasonable But yes.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
What a great thing to note that she says no,
You're like, fuck.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
You, yeah, and what the fuck do you mean?

Speaker 1 (28:11):
No?

Speaker 4 (28:11):
This programming is just being thrust upon all of these
young men, and I'm sure men who are actually attracted
to these women.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
I'm going to say, so, yeah, this is like affecting
them the rage.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yeah, if you don't even want to date girls and
you're feeling that, I can only imagine what straight boys
are now.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
They're responding to that culture totally.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I think that even though it's a very like
IBLP training, I think that has really infiltrated even secular America,
just like in the toxic masculinity and the response to
rejection from women, or there's a big thing in Bill
Gothard's teaching about like dressing modestly, especially for women and

(28:58):
basically looking.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
At our skirts.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
I know is so cut by the way. Clothing clothing soap.
I love that I've been to that kind of but yeah,
like very very victim blamey, you know, like the epitome
of what what was she wearing? Right?

Speaker 4 (29:18):
I think the ib LP is that what Yeah, okay,
it sounds like it's a disease. As you said it.
It is one of the most abusive, not that you
can like rank things, but it is just pure abuse.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's it is training people to be brainwashed victims, yes,
and training them also to make sure that they don't
feel empowered to tell on leadership because that would potentially
like be a negative picture of the church and that
would be worse than anything.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
Well, so, so many of the churches we talk about
are like that, I feel. I think it's so interesting
because most I mean, I don't I don't know if
we count ib LP as a cult, but there. But
compared to cults, it's so interesting because, like you said,
instead of it being like Bill Gothard is directly interacting
with all of these people, he's.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Just empowering all these men, yes.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
To dominate and to control and to not give their
families a say in their lives.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, I mean the question about what franchise franchise, the.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Question about what the men were learning was such a
great question, Lola. And at first I was excited because
You're like, we were studying and I was like wonderful.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
And then you're like the Bible. Yeah, I'm like cool. Yeah,
So was their mathematics.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Oh, like in the homeschool? Yeah, there was. I don't
I don't recall us like specifically always doing like the
IBLP homeschool got you. We we started in books and
then there were like computer homeschool programs as well, and
so we kind of graduated to that. But the most

(30:58):
important thing, regardless of whatever else you know, is to
know the Bible and to know how to like convert people. Basically,
there is one of the principles. There's like twenty five
principles of IBLP, and one of them is persuasion. It's
a principle to teach people. And the definition is something

(31:20):
like I'm going to get it wrong, but it's something
along the lines of helping somebody understand what is actually correct.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Huh oh, how kind?

Speaker 4 (31:32):
Right?

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, oh gosh, thank you. Yeah. Whether they want it
or not, it's it's in the Shiny Happy People documentary.
It's like a very quick thing. But I paused and
read it and I was like, oh, that is so
gross and manipulative. And to tout that as a virtue
or something that should that everybody should aspire to one

(31:57):
funny story just because I'll forget it later. As an
example of like the authority that my father felt like
he had over us. The moment any of us turned eighteen,
he would drive all of us to go vote and
would give us a sheet of paper and say this
is what to do. Damn, you don't even have to
research it. Damn, here's all the answers for you. And

(32:20):
at a certain point I started saying, well, that doesn't
feel good. I don't I don't like we talk about
the Democrats all being uninformed voters and they just voted
for Obama because he was black, like all of the
awful awful things right that I can't believe that I
thought or said or wrote on my Facebook page. And

(32:40):
I remember one election, it was like a mid term,
so it wasn't a presidential. But one of the really
really big things of IBLP is like political change, like
grooming these young kids to grow up to be Christian
leaders who also like infiltrate politics and thus change the
laws of the nation. Josh nation, Yes, which.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
I feel like has exactly been what's happened.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, people like Josh Holly. I don't know if you
specifically IBLP, but like a weirdo. Anyway, he picked me
up from work one night and I knew that the
voting thing was going to come up because I hadn't
yet voted, and he knew that, and so he asked me,
and I said, you know, I don't think I'm going
to vote in this election. I just I don't have

(33:26):
time to research and stuff. And he said, well, I'll
give you the paper and I was like, no, I
would like to do my own research and decide who
I would like to vote for. And he went off
like I I actually wrote about it in my journal
and read that journal entry recently, and there were so

(33:48):
many things he said that I didn't remember. But he
was like, you're just like Lottie Dot, like voting is
so important. Isis could be at our door next week
and you'd be twiddling your thumbs that I'd be screaming
like come here, and you would just be standing there
and you would get us all killed. And it was
like Isis was a really big threat back then. Yeah,
that was like the big thing. And and I remember

(34:10):
just saying, yeah, I'm not going to do it. And
he said for you, Well, here's the kicker. He goes, Aaron,
do you believe in God? And I said yeah, like
he just picked me up from the church that I
work at. And he said, well, then, in the name
of Jesus, I command you to vote. And I said,

(34:35):
you are taking the Lord's name in vain and refuse
to accept that.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
This is the best Christian fight of.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
All I felt. So it was it was how I
should have felt in that biology class. So I was like,
I was like, oh, I said the thing that shut
them down, and yeah, I didn't vote that election, And
that in its in itself felt like one of the
most empowering like first apps for me. I think I
moved out like a year later. I was just taking

(35:03):
small steps to like separate myself from this man who
had enmeshed himself not just emotionally but legally, like on paper,
Like I because my parents got divorced, I was now
the co owner of all the cars like he. He
kind of treated me as the as the wife legally,
and so I was like, shit, I want to be

(35:24):
removed from all these things. And he had a hissy fit.
He didn't know what to do with himself. Delayed, delayed, delayed.
I had a joint bank account with him, like it was.
It was so wild to think about the therapy. Can't
even that, like, thank god, I'm in therapy.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, I mean that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:46):
I want to just throw something out there that I'm
curious about y'all's thoughts on. I don't know if we've
ever touched upon this, but like, for example, I read
a lot in my ex group that a lot of
the things that we were taught to do, such as
being an example or a total fucking weirdo, was not
actually to convert anybody.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
It was more to keep us isolated.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
So that we didn't leave because you know, no one
ever joined our church because of me, but a lot
of people bullied me.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah. I also just thought my church was so weird
that I didn't want to invite people never, Like every
Sunday they'd be like, invite your friends, they're going to Hell,
and I'd be like, yeah, I don't want to invite
them here, you guys are so weird. And then I
would invite people and they'd be like, this is where
you go every Sunday.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
Cool, Well, mine was just three hours of the most
boring shit you could possibly imagine.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
So I was like, I don't think anyone will, Like
I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (36:43):
Make my friends go like so spend the night, Like
if they had to spend the night on Saturday night,
they would have to go with us on Sunday morning.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
And I'd be like you're coming and they'd be like yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
And Mormonism, the conversion is a genuine goal because they
are a church of growth.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
People convert to Mormonism. Use like kind of makes sense.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
I feel like even just from a business standpoint, like
I feel like it's like a it's a hub of
like it's a social network and anyways, Michael.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Michael did not have that element.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Speaking of influence, I feel like something in reading through
my old journals that I realized is I had secular friends.
But I could tell by the way that I was writing,
because I was writing from a brainwash person's perspective, that
part of my reason for wanting to hang out with
them or to be nice to them and all that

(37:38):
stuff was so that they would believe in God or
see Christ in me. And so thinking back through all
of the actions that I took or days or years
that I was friends with people just so that they
might get saved is so sad because I never really

(38:01):
back then. I don't think I had many like true, genuine,
agenda free relationships.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Wow, that's so sad. Yeah, it is sad. It's also
I don't you generally you think of agenda based friendships
as they will give me something like sure, I will
get a role from this person. But if you wanted
to save them, which is so interesting, and like, what

(38:27):
would happen if you saved them? What would that mean
about you?

Speaker 2 (38:30):
It would mean I saved one person, because I mean
I was not very good at it. I had a
friend who their family was also IBLP their dad. Basically
any time would go over, I hated their dad. He
was so judgmental, constantly, like it was his job. So
we would just be there playing like children, and he'd

(38:53):
be like, so, Aaron, how many people have you led
to Christ? And I'd be like like, He's like, yeah,
like the prayer of Salvation, like how many people of you?
And I'm like, well, I'm twelve, I'm homeschooled, so I'm
mostly surrounded by my siblings. And I was like none,
that's really none?

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Oh my god, do you know how?

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Do you even know how? And he was not only IBLP,
but he was like one of his legit street preachers,
like he would go to Miami Beach with signs and
like all that shit, so like one of those guys.
So he felt that at my age of twelve, I
should have already, you know, prayed the sinner's prayer whether
they want to or not, with like sixty one hundred.

(39:39):
I mean, good you.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
For admitting none. I would have been like it was
so like a few. I don't know, probably couple I did.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
I did delay. I think I was like, oh, let
me think zero. Actually yeah, it's like, well, there's well no,
he didn't know. It was like going through there, going
back to a previous question like ages ago, like how
did my parents accept the mee being gay and all
that stuff. So basically I kept experimenting with friends, and

(40:10):
experimenting got into like actual what I would consider more
like sexual activity as opposed to just like more innocent stuff.
And at the age of fifteen, my my mom and
dad one day invited me to their room, which could
have been a good thing, but I had a weird feeling,

(40:31):
and my dad plopped three sheets of printed Internet history
onto the bed, Oh no, and said what is this?

Speaker 5 (40:42):
Oh no.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
And one thing I don't know if I've ever had
the conscious though or said it out loud, is like
the fact that they knew it had to be me, right,
you fucking knew right totally, and chose not to address it,
chose not to what I And at the age of fifteen,
I was getting near planning to come out, and what

(41:07):
I believed that meant for me was hell, an eternal
damnation that I wasn't going to be a Christian anymore.
But I was kind of in a place where I
was ready to accept that for myself if it just
meant letting this fucking secret go. So sat down with

(41:29):
my parents. My mom started balling, she had to leave
the room, and I kind of like told them about
my life so far, the life that they weren't privy to,
the molestation that had occurred up to that point, the
U just you know, experimenting with friends and all that stuff.
And I definitely was coming at it from a place

(41:50):
of shame, like, oh, I'm a bad person, but at least,
oh God, this feels finally good to get it all
out there. And I didn't know what I thought the
end of the conversation was going to be, but my
dad basically listened and at the end of it was like, well,
you know, there's help for this, and I said, yeah,

(42:12):
I get you know. I think i'd like heard things about, like,
you know, gay people becoming straight, But then that would
also mean I had to admit that I was attracted
to mend and I didn't want to do that, right,
So I was like yeah, and he said I need
to talk to the pastors, and I was like, you
have to tell our pastors no, And so I just
felt like the black sheep of the church for a while.

(42:35):
I wasn't able to serve. I wasn't allowed to serve
in like children's ministry anymore. I wasn't able to like
sing on stage. I wasn't allowed to like all the
things that I like.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
What happened to my mom?

Speaker 2 (42:45):
And she was excommunicating like except that I was still
forced to go every single week? Right, And so I
guess basically like the church agreed to pay for therapy
for me once a week, so I had therapy once
a week for a year.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
Therapy was in quotation marks, right, Okay, yes, so what
does this church or the church recommend for somebody who.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Is conversion therapy? Okay, yeah, I don't know if they
call it that, but it's therapy for people with same
sex attraction. The word gay is not not a thing,
like you have same sex attraction.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Same sex attraction sounds hotter than gay.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Does it mean I've never thought of it that way?

Speaker 4 (43:32):
Yeah? Sex it yeah so many So no, you can't
say gay.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Okay, Yeah, there was no way I was that. It
was I was demon possessed. It was because I was molested.
Even though I was molested after I already like very
clearly had feelings for guys. So what I learned in
conversion therapy, which I did that along with reading so

(43:59):
many pam blitz which every fifteen year old kid wants
to do on top of homework, so many pamphlets, so
watching DVDs of like testimonies of people saying like this
is my life, now I'm married, this is my wife,
blah blah blah, and a lot of those were produced
by Exodus International.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
That's what I was going to ask about.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, yeah, So Exodus International, for those who don't know,
is a now disbanded, but they were like the big
ex gay in quotes organization for like thirty years or
something like that, and basically at the end of it,
the leaders came out and said, we have not seen

(44:38):
one successful case. Wow, we ourselves are not changed. We
are still attracted. One of the one of the guys
that was like a CEO or something ended up like
getting into a relationship with another guy that was like
ahead of Exodus.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
Oh my god, juicy, I know.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Fu while the organization was still there, but I obviously
was coming into it at a time where they were
still happening. So I went to conferences and were you like,
were you taking this literally where you like I will
be ungay. Yeah, yeah, I think one of the things
looking back at like teenage Aaron, I really wanted to

(45:21):
do the right thing, yeah, and whether that was like
religiously or interpersonally or definitely with this, like I wanted
to be the good kid. And I felt that by
doing this therapy, doing all these things, that it would

(45:42):
happen for me, that it would that it would go away.
And that's kind of what is taught with Exodus International
and any conversion therapy, like if you do these things,
if you heal these core wounds from your past. So
for example, the big ones that I kind of harped
on was like, okay, molestation and bad relationship ship with
my dad. Never really had a great relationship with my dad,

(46:02):
so is part of it his fault. I got like
really angry at him for a while that I had
struggled with this, and then just kind of came to
the realization, all right, well, I need to have a
better relationship with him, which actually made me go into
even more toxic obedience with him in like as the
head of the household and everything, because I felt that

(46:26):
by you know, obeying better or having a better relationship
with him, whatever, that meant that would be part of what.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Having made me straight gay removed?

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah, wow, and it clearly didn't work.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
I'm just so curious about the I mean, I heard
you say on another podcast you don't really remember what
you guys talked about in their area.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah, yeah, wow, you did your research. What podcast was that?

Speaker 1 (46:52):
I don't remember?

Speaker 3 (46:55):
But are there any like things you have in your
head that came from that experience?

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah? Basically, like the main things I walked away from
that therapy experience with was the belief that I wasn't
really gay. It was a sin, it was a flaw.
It was like a thing that was broken about me,
that I could heal it, or that God could heal
it if he so willed, and that if I just

(47:23):
did the right things, it would go away. That was
basically what I walked away with. And so what ends
up happening, not just for me, but for so many
people that have gone through conversion therapy is we really
wanted to go away because we've been teased, We've seen
we've felt like the outsiders. We see everybody getting married

(47:45):
and apparently like very attracted to the opposite sex, and
it's like, why am I not normal, Well, like, what's
wrong with me?

Speaker 4 (47:53):
Yeah, this heteronormative fairy tale that not only are you
left out of, but also you're going to hell.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Right right for something that I didn't like that you
don't want, Yeah, but I don't want that. I'm not
doing on purpose and doing all the right things, and
it's still not going away. And so the message that
I internalized from that, from years and years of trying
my best, was, Oh, there's something extra wrong with me

(48:19):
that I can't get this to.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Stop because I'm doing all the right thing and you're
like a.

Speaker 4 (48:26):
Very I mean, I'm assuming you you seem like a
very like type a person.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Then I get this.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
You know, like, and so I just imagine the pain
being so excruciating.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
It's very Yeah, I'm.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
It's just very hard to think about what must have
been going on for you.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Yeah, And I have to imagine it creates and you
can tell me if it does or it doesn't, but
I imagine it creates an OCD like thought.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Process where like, was that a gay thought? Was that
a gay thought? Was that a gay thought?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean, and then you know, let's say
I had gay thoughts two days in a row. Oh,
my God, the devil is winning. And I'm like slipping
more and more into that. And I mean, growing up,
how I did sheltered. How I did I didn't know,
or so I thought. I mean, clearly I knew gay

(49:17):
people because they just exist, but I didn't know any
gay people. I didn't see gay people around me. Anytime
they were on TV, it would be like, you know,
parents would like change the channel really quick or even
like cover up the TV like it was so evil tabool. Yeah,
And that was that was one of the things that
finally finally in my late twenties where I started questioning it.

(49:43):
I listening to a recent podcast, heard that one of
you is sober, in one of yous in alan On,
I'm also sober.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
I'm sober.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
I got into the program and one of the things
that's just radical honesty and making an inventory of like
everything you've ever done. And I remember I literally wrote
a note for my sponsor, which in short, because we
were about to go over my sex inventory that day
and I knew that for me, my sex inventory was

(50:17):
homosex and I basically gave him a disclaimer. I don't
remember what it said exactly, but it was basically like
you're about to hear a lot of gay shit, but
just so you know, I'm not kay oh my god.
And so even then, even like as a nearly you know,
thirty year old adult, I was still so so hanging

(50:40):
on to those teachings of when I was fifteen. Of course,
so even though I like had still you know, slipped
and whatever. But at that point, I was like five
years celibate, and I was like very proud of myself
and you know, felt like I was heading in the
right direction. I'd been dating a girl for two years

(51:01):
and yeah, and we never did any thing beyond kissing.
But I was also at a point in my life
where I was practicing honesty anyway. So like the church
that I mentioned that I was working at, in my
job interview for them, the question was simply, what's your
relationship with God? Like, and I started crying immediately, and

(51:23):
I basically told them like my whole story, and it
ended with, you know, this is a struggle I have,
but I know that God has a better plan for
me and wants me to marry a woman, which is
in any other job interview situation, the weirdest could you
imagine somebody talking about like a normal job interview, but

(51:44):
that church was like, thank you so much for sharing
your vulnerability, like it just made so much sense to them. Yeah.
So I worked there for years and years, met my
girlfriend there and told her before we started dating, this
is my life story. Only ever been with guys. I've
only ever been attracted to you, guys. But I know

(52:04):
that God wants me to be ord a woman all
that stuff, and she, you know, at some point also
was like I really want to save it for marriage
and I was like, yes, absolutely perfect, no, definitely. So anyway,
she broke up with me, thank god, because I was

(52:27):
determined to like go to they at the end. Yeah,
I had already asked her parents for like for to
be able to marry her, and I was looking at
buying a ring. But because I was being honest with
her and telling her like, hey, today, I looked at
a guide today and last night I had a weird dream,
like a sexy homelowe dream. Whatever, she finally broke up
with me, and it was probably one of the best

(52:50):
decisions's she's ever made. And it was the best thing
for me because it broke my heart and it shattered,
it shattered this like oh, I thought I finally was
going to get it. I thought I finally was going
to accomplish that goal that I've had for so long,
and this was the person I was going to do
that with. And out of that, like deep Bottom, I

(53:14):
was the forest rock body. Yeah. Yeah, uh. Went to
the program and anyway, I was doing my doing my
stabs back to the fourth step with my sponsor said
you're about to hear a bunch of gay shit whatever
whenever my sex inventory and he just kind of slowly
nod it and he goes, so, I don't want to

(53:34):
accuse you of anything, and please know that I don't
mean this in a bad way. I just want to
point out that all the names you listed were guys' names.
And I said, yeah, there are lots of straight men
who only have sex with men. And I said that,
completely convinced of the work, that idiotic words coming out

(53:57):
of my mouth. Wow, And he said, no, there are
not aaron That's not a thing.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Oh what did you feel when he said that?

Speaker 4 (54:09):
Well?

Speaker 2 (54:09):
I thought he was wrong, Like, you just don't understand
I'm straight. What part of this did you not get?
But yeah, it was slowly as I kept doing the
steps and kept also like just being in a new
environment that was not heavily Christian. It was just people

(54:30):
from all different kinds of religions with their own interpretations
of what God was, people of all different sexualities, and
nothing was like through the lens of the teachings that
I had grown up with. So it was just seeing
the world and seeing people in a whole new light.
I finally started like giving myself permission to ask questions,
which in all of these things, whether it's Assemblies of

(54:51):
God or IBOP or Exodus International, don't ask questions that
contradict like anything. So I remember one of the the
big aha moments for me was, Okay, so God loves
straight people getting together. He just loves it. I know
that God sees a straight couple on a date, on

(55:13):
a coffee date, and it's beautiful and he's cheering and
he's going, yes, they're probably gonna eventually have sex, and
that's amazing. God is a.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Purview guys once they're married.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Only once they're married, of course, But like he's like,
I was taught that he rejoices when he sees two people,
straight people doing that, and so I was like, so
two straight people, it's a really beautiful thing. But if
it's a man and a man or a woman and
a woman, somehow that same exact scenario is evil. That

(55:46):
doesn't make sense. And just allowing myself to have that
simple thought started really cracking the facade. So that turned
into Okay, if God loves everyone, and maybe what if

(56:08):
this isn't a sin for me? What if it just
is part of who I am? And what if God
not only doesn't hate it about me but actually sees
it as something that's beautiful about me? And just ask

(56:31):
myself that question, which I had never come close to
anything like that again, just started to like chip away,
and I started to accept myself really for the first time,
and I did the classic thing of like, I'm bisexual,

(56:56):
but I'll probably still marry a woman. Like It was
a very slow story, just like I okay now, but
eventually coming to that place of being able to say
and accept that about myself and not see it as
a flaw or something evil or something to politically fight
against or any of these things. It was just a

(57:20):
part of me and something that might actually be a
great part of me. And so for the last however
many years, I can't count you guys, I don't know how.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Since then, it's it's been a journey of like undoing
a lot of those old core beliefs and being able
to just have things like normal friendships where I'm not
like trying to convince them into my like evangela goalies them.

(57:56):
Is that a word you guys? Did I mention I'm
nut since eleven PM, Yeah, to like evangelize them into
like brainwashing them, which was seen as a good thing.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
So you get to be a human being. Yeah, having
actual authentic connection with other people.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah, And I remember so, like I said, I was
like five years celibate. I did the thing because I'm
type A and I want to be a good student.
I did the thing where I went through like a
year of AA and no sex, no like relationships or anything.
My sponsor was even like, you can have sex please,

(58:36):
but I was like, no, I want to wait for
the year. So I did. And I remember it just
being I was like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like that
was fucking great. This is thank god. It was a
good experience being no, I'm sorry, having sex for the
first I could do so after having sex for the

(59:00):
first time after five years, it was such a wonderful experience,
and I remember thinking like, yeah, I'm gonna do this
because I'm gonna do that, and being able to have
that experience and not feel the deep shame afterwards and

(59:22):
being able to say like that just happened, that it
just is one of my therapists. I'm so so grateful
for her. Like one of the key things I'll take
away from her is like as far as she was
the one I was seeing like during that time, and
I was again a good student, so I was keeping
track of like names, how many people, like from the

(59:42):
time I was fucking four. Wow, Like I knew exactly
how many people and in hindsight wasn't that many back then,
but it was like a shameful number to me. And
I remember one day kind of getting embarrassed and like
I stopped get and she was like, good because that

(01:00:05):
number doesn't have to mean anything.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Yeah. Oh I counted for a long time. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
I also counted wrote all the names down my father, No,
he didn't brought it to my therapist, and I was like,
I'm a bit worried about this, and I said, these
are just people that I think are cute.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Yeah, yeah, Oh my god, was like BJ.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
I was like, cool, cool, cool, you know that there's
just shame around sexuality.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
I think for even if it's straight sucks.

Speaker 4 (01:00:40):
You know, like like it's just in our culture and
narrative and it's so unfortunate.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I was going to say, the fact that you were
able to have that sex after that period and not
feel shame, it's so cool, it's incredibly impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Yeah, power of sobriety be doing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Like, yeah, I had shame after straight ass sex for years.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Yeah, straight ass sex or straight up okay, a.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Little bit of both.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
I was Mormon, remember.

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
Oh yeah, okay, what do you say to somebody who's
do you constructing beliefs about sexuality separating it from the
religious views they were growing up and in general, And
then I'm gonna ask a follow up question after that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
I would say to them, you're gay. That's what I
would say to my younger self. Yeah, like, hey, you're gay,
and that's okay. Yeah, just that simple message, but like
really accepting that fully for what those words mean. I
think the the cognitive dissonance was there for so long

(01:01:44):
with not just ideal P stuff, but with the conversion
therapy teachings I had questions I had, Well, that doesn't
make sense because like I met this person, they're okay,
and they seem really nice. They didn't seem possessed or
they were like a nice person. Am I a bad

(01:02:05):
person for thinking that they're nice? So I would say,
if you have questions and you are specifically in an
environment that doesn't all allow or encourage questions, find somebody
around you to have those conversations with, whether it's somebody
else in that same place as you that you kind
of test the waters and be like okay, wait can

(01:02:26):
we can we talk about this? Because I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
This is like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Nowadays, there's so many more resources online of people that
have probably been where you're at and have come out
of it. I remember when Exodus International was disbanded because
I was still very deeply brainwashed. I didn't see that
and see their statements as oh wait, wait, this isn't real.
I saw it as oh no, the devil is when.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
It yeah, because like one of the one of the
young menim in coin in my life keeps saying like,
but what if this is the devil tricking me?

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Yeah, you know, and like how do you that cognitive bios?
How do you respond to that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
I mean, I don't believe the devil's real, so that's
easier for me now. But yeah, but I heard the
other day somebody on TikTok or something talking about like
you when you say to a Christian, you know, the
feelings you have are not the Holy Spirit, it's group think.
It's you know, the music and whatever like. Or if

(01:03:35):
you feel afraid, that's not the devil, that's demons. That's
your your body telling you something's wrong. But you're trained
from such a young age to believe that any like happy,
joyful feeling is God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, it's a
good thing, and any like slightly uncomfortable thing is demons
and devil and temptation and whatever. But also it truly

(01:03:57):
is the perspective about it. Like I I now live
a life that my younger self would probably have just
seen this objective other person been like, well that person
is clearly deceived and they're going to hell and all
this stuff. However, nowadays I don't want to kill myself.

(01:04:17):
Nowadays I can walk around relax, and I'm not trying
to modify my voice to be lower, or walk a
certain way, or lie to people all the time about
what my testimony is or whatever it is, Like I
can just be a human and I don't know, I

(01:04:38):
would say to that young person, like, just keep asking questions.
I think the process is so different for everybody, and
for me, the fact that it was from the start
of conversion therapy to when I came out thirteen years
I'm sure that's longer, Like that's a long fucking time time.
And yeah, but if I gosh, I hope the best

(01:05:02):
for them. I mean, like, looking online, like I said,
I knew the Exodus was disbanded, and so I was
looking for desperately for testimonies of people saying to to
affirm what I believe. Yeah, and all I could find
was the opposite. And I was like, have they wiped
them from the internet? Have they? Like I just couldn't

(01:05:25):
believe that these people were correct, Like I had to
believe what I grew up with. And yeah, I firmly
believe that the church and its teachings, as well as
conversion therapy stole decades of my life. Wow, of just

(01:05:47):
being able to live comfortably in my own skin and
be an authentic person.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
And now you're walking around feeling good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
So gay into heighth ass genes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
It's like it was just about allowing yourself some space
to ask the things you were too scared.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
To ask, because it's just always it always comes down
to that, Yeah, yeah, talking to.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Someone or just allowing yourself to not be afraid to
like look in that little corner in your brain and
be like, but.

Speaker 4 (01:06:15):
What if because your brain is unconsciously asking it. And
when I think of cognitive dissonance, I think of like
two just like completely opposing notes playing in your brain
and like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
One of them is unconscious and it's like so loud.

Speaker 4 (01:06:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, sometimes you just got to
ask the questions.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Yeah, scary questions.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
Well, I know that you are no longer a Christian,
but if there were somebody who still very much believes
in Christianity and loves Jesus and doesn't want to leave Christianity, Like,
how have you seen people be able to reconcile those things?

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Yeah? Healthily? My sponsor is one of them.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Yeah, he's gay. He's been married for twenty something years.
I don't remember where they got married, but some really
cool state that allowed it back then. I do know
people who still are very very firm in their faith
and go to church and all that stuff. I just

(01:07:14):
know that that's not me. Part of my deconstruction was
not just asking all the questions about my sexuality, but
asking all the questions like finally allowing myself to look
at arguments against the Bible and God as opposed to
like only coming back with scripture and all that. So
allowing myself to like actually look at videos from an

(01:07:34):
atheist perspective, or listening to podcasts where people just talked
very open and freely about their journey from faith to
where they are now and hearing them as like, Oh,
these aren't bad people, these aren't ill meaning people, these
are just I actually kind of like them. I actually

(01:07:58):
might think I am one of these people. And again,
that process took a few years too.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
But you gotta be patient with yourself, you know, Yeah,
because lifetime of beliefs take a better time to undo.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Certainly.

Speaker 4 (01:08:14):
Yeah, Now, are we missing anything about your story? That's
I mean, I know there's so much I want to
see the show.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
I want to see that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
Yeah, yea.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
I'm writing a book, yeah, of course, which is part
of the reason I've been going through my old journals.
It's tentatively currently titled Journal of the Gay Christian. So
it's re examining those old journal entries, which is coming
from the perspective of a very brainwashed type a person
and being able to reflect on those modern day and

(01:08:46):
then also just like telling stories maybe that aren't attached
to a journal because I didn't journal that day, but
it was like a formative moment for me. There's one
journal entry that I just laugh. I can't do anything
but laugh because it's basically me describing a very like
not even a sexual dream, but just ay an intimate dream.

(01:09:06):
It says something like, last night, I dreamed that I
cuddled naked with a friend, and I know that that's
not actually sexual desire. What that means is that I'm
really longing for close male friendships and that will basically
like lead to those feelings going away. And I read

(01:09:26):
that and I was just like Okham's raiser, buddy, you're
gay like.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
The mental pretzel. Oh my god, Yeah, I can't imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
It's all pseudoscience and pretzels and not the good kind.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
Ye not give me a welt. I want to go
to the mall and get a wesel.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
I ordered them at the movie theaters recently. They are gigantic.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Oh I've seen this huge? No, I haven't.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
It's so so many calories, I'm sure, but anyway, they're
insane and important and important for this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
We are sponsored by what.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
We are not, but I would eat some for free
and if offered. Where can people find you and your
hilarious videos and you're acting skills?

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Oh my gosh, you can find me on social media
anywhere at Aaron Goldie boy a A R O N
G O L D Y boy. If you're really curious
to seeing my acting work. IMDb is good. It was
just in The Hunting Wives, which is the gayest show.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
It's the biggest show in the world. Right, Oh my god,
I still have to watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
You'll see me an episode, fine, can't wait link and
you'll miss it. But it's whatever, fun, so fun.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
You're going they're going to ask you back?

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, they're going to get renewed they
have to obviously.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
Yeah. People are obsessed, Yeah, obsessed.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's such a gay show.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
I mean, but like, what just taking a moment to
celebrate what an incredible arc you've had, Like you're on
this beautiful, cool journey and yeah, I like going from
Bill Gothard to being on the Hunting Lapses so cool.
It makes me happy. Yeah, yeah, me too.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Congratulations.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Thanks. We're also starting to do screenings of a new
movie that I'm in called We're So Dead. It is
a horror comedy that takes place in a restaurant, so
it's servers versus the like crazy Karen and it's oh
my god. We're doing screens around the country so you
can check out I think it's a weird So Dead
movie dot com to see if there's a screening near you,

(01:11:44):
and I might be there if I'm not shooting Hunting
Wive season two.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Perfect. Thank you so much for being on playing. Wow, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron,
what an unbelievable conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:11:59):
I know, I know, I don't know exactly what to
ask you, because I'm guessing conversion therapy would not be
something you would join.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Yeah, I mean, if there's any any new listeners.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
At the end of the episode, usually we ask if
I would join the cult that we've discussed, and unfortunately
many a time I would, uh and my naive tea,
but conversion therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
That's a hard one.

Speaker 4 (01:12:26):
I definitely have like a more fluid sexuality and have
since I was young, And there were so many things
that I felt super guilty about, but that oddly wasn't
one of them. Maybe it's very deeply unconsciously like torturing
me because there was definitely anti gay roderick being spread

(01:12:48):
around me and the two bite twos.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Is it just being like a wrong thing to do?

Speaker 4 (01:12:54):
But yeah, I absolutely hate that anybody was forced to
go through this.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
It breaks my heart. I know, I know, I yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Interestingly, even when I was a little Mormon, were you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
Like a small child being Mormon or were you just
like a tiny bit.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
Mormon depending on the eraic either one? Okays. As a preteen,
shall we say the Mormon Church was very I mean
has historically been very not LGBTQ friendly, and you know,
campaigning against gay marriage and.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
All this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:13:36):
But I don't know, like that part is like never
penetrated for me. Yeah, I'm very straight. I've always been
very straight. But in middle school, maybe we've talked about this,
I was one of like three kids in the Gay
Straight Alliance because I would be so mad when people.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
Would be mean to the queer kids.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
That's not like I guess that's just my mom's values,
just like be kind to everyone.

Speaker 4 (01:13:59):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I got really lucky with
my parents, even though they were generationally raised in the
two by twos, like their parents, their grandparents, there was
so much guilt about so many things, being selfish, you know,
just not being good quote unquote.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
But to their.

Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
Credit, my parents credit, they had a very open mind
towards people of different sexualities and of different races. And
that's probably why I don't have the guilt about that
particular subject. So I dodged some definite bullets there. That's nice, but.

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
Yeah, it's just so cruel.

Speaker 4 (01:14:37):
And it really needs to sup because yeah, like like
Aaron so eloquently points out, it doesn't fucking work, So
oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
And the head of the that organization ex is International.
I was actually looking him up and he's like really
vocal anti conversion therapy, yes speaker. I don't know if
he counts as an activists. We should totally talk to him,
we really should.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
And I was just gonna say, Aaron references it and
the conversation I believe, but like he said that the
leader of Exodus International himself was like, hey, this never
worked ever.

Speaker 1 (01:15:14):
Yeah, because of course not.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Of course these people are who they are, no judgment
to anybody for being Christian. But in a time where
Christian nationalism is rising and there's like this cultural desire
to go back to quote traditional family values, I think
it's important now more than ever because generally what that
means is it's going to include a lot of hate
and yeah, yeah, and a lot of conversion therapy almost certainly.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
So yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
Was surprised that there wasn't one person who is by
who is like, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna go
with women and call myself straight now. It was like no,
every I mean maybe but still identifying as gay.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
It was just you know, yeah, I'd be curious to
ask him if there were any bye boys who like,
you know, went with it for a little bit and
then like yeah, I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
I'm so curious to know what that what that was
all about? Anyway? Uh fuck, conversion therapy is the point.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
YEP, And uh watch Aaron everywhere that he's appearing, watch
him on the Hunting Wives, follow him on Instagram, and
uh as always follow US rate US five stars and
remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Flags, and never ever trust me. Hye bye. This has
been an exactly right production hosted by Me Lola.

Speaker 4 (01:16:35):
Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Gee Holley.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Speaker 4 (01:16:42):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kuttner.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark
and Daniell Kramer.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
or on TikTok at trust Me Cult podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepodat gmail dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts