August 6, 2025 • 53 mins
Artist and writer Akina Cox returns to share more about her experience growing up in the Unification Church (also known as the Moonies), its physical punishment rituals, and where the church stands now. The girls then transition from the topic of her particular cult to a discussion on the cult-like patterns of the current American political landscape, and how to approach political disagreements with loved ones.
Akina also reflects on her article for Salon, where she explores how the Trump administration employs many of the same tactics used by Reverend Moon, and how high-control groups tend to choose a group to scapegoat for their problems. They discuss the demonization of immigrants and trans folks, the realities of ICE kidnappings, and how the failures of political leadership effectively addressing income inequality created an opening for demagogues to thrive.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Do you trust me? Right?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Everly?
Speaker 4 (00:05):
And you astray?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
and manipulation from two American girls have actually experienced it.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
I Am Lola Blanc and I Am Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Today's part two of our interview with the wonderful Aqina Cox,
artist and writer who grew up in the Moonies or
at the Unification Church. She is going to share more
about her experiences in the church, including its physical punishment rituals,
and where the church stands now.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
We'll then transition into discussing the cult like patterns of
the current state of American politics and will debate how
to approach political disagreements with loved ones. We'll discuss her
article for Salon in which she exposes how the Trump
administration employs many of the same tactics used by Reverend
Moon and how high control groups tend to choose group
to scapegoat for their problems.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Plus the demonization of immigrants and trans folks, the realities
of ice kidnappings, and how the failures of political leadership
to effectively address income inequality in America created an opening
for demagogues to thrive. It's a chunky one, it's a
meadia one. Indeed, for those who want to read Aquina's article,
it is called as a former mooney, Trump's cult tactics
(01:24):
are eerily familiar, and she did write that for Salon,
So go ahead and read that if you would like.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Before we get into all things America with Aquina Megan,
what's your cultiest.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Thing of the week.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Okay, so this week we recorded my favorite murder.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
We got to be on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, yay.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And I have to admit there was this deep fear
inside of me that I would die before it happened.
And it's a very like two by two belief that
which is the group that I was raised in, that like,
before you you do something that maybe would bring more
attention and a negative light, you would die.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Does that make sense? Yes? So I was like, there's
no way.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I'm like, even though I don't believe in it, there
was still this fear in me that something would happen.
And I'm like, like, let's say I do die soon. Okay,
let's hope not. Let's hope not, but people in the
two by twos would say it's because I was speaking
out about it. And this is annoying to me because
I'm very clumsy. Like the other day, I had my
(02:30):
window open, and I have one of those windows that
just open straight out it like you could fall out
of it, you know, And I was like trying to
pick up my cat wearing cowboy booths, and I almost
fella out of the hold. My god, and I would
have I would have literally died, and it would have
been instead of just, you know, slightly tragic and kind
(02:51):
of funny, a lesson to be learned at conventions forever.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And another annoying thing.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
For the two by twos is like whenever there's a tragedy,
they're like, but everybody, all the friends, that's what they're called,
we're safe.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
And it's like, well, what about the people who weren't.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Or or or if you die like leaving a convention
or going to a convention or something, it's like, oh,
that's so great they died on their way to Like like,
it's just the dumble, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
It's never fair. It's like if you died when you
were saying something.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Bad about the two by twos, it's because you were
saying something bad and if you die going to do
something great. For the two by twos, it's because God
is like rewarding you.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's just, oh, I was I thought you were going
to say, if you died going to something, it was
because Satan was intervening and trying to stop you from
doing the good work, which is I think what I
want to have been told.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
No, it's like, well maybe both.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I just remember these two boys died leaving a convention
one year, which is like basically convention as like two
x two's four day long meeting. I can't it's a
whole other conversation, but they'd leaving it, and it was
very like you wanted to die leaving convention. Ah yeah, no, yeah,
(04:07):
I hate that because you were like, I'm I've been
filled with all these things for four days. I've been
away from the world for four days. Like take me
now before I send again. Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
So just as like a clumsy person, maybe not the
best driver, maybe you know a few things that I
could really work on. I just want people to know
this is a PSA. If I die, it's because of me.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Now I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Now I feel like we're in final destination and I
have to like be looking around every corner to see
if you're going to trip on a knife or something.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Well, my cat and I did come to the conclusion
that the windows shouldn't be open that far.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
We're not going to do that anymore.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And for the record, listeners, she lives in the hills
like it's it's not like just the ground outside like
she would die. So okay, you for real need like
some screens or something that's wild.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So that's my cultiest thing of the week. What about you,
what's your cultist thing in the week?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Once again, and this will be a pattern for me,
listeners will discover My actual cultiest thing of the week
is America and is concern about a lot of things
going on in America and in Gaza where people who
are seeking just simply to feed their families as they
are starving or getting shot, and the US, of course
is still condoning it and paying for a lot of it.
(05:35):
So please call your representatives and tell them that you
would like that to stop. But besides that, I was
learning about a part of history that actually I think
MFM listeners will probably be familiar with, but I was not.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Which is the New England vampire panic. Do you know
about this?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
You you were talking to me about it the other day.
Tell me more, because no, I don't, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So it's not exactly like this Salem Witch Trials because
in the Salem Witch Trials, obviously they killed a fuck
ton of people who didn't need to die. This was
more like just messing with people's bodies after death. And
now I understand more the context for the film No
s Feratu, because when I was watching it, I was
like disease and vampires. I'm confused, but now it makes
(06:20):
more sense to me. So New Englanders in the late
eighteenth and early nineteenth century believed in vampires due to
the tuberculosis epidemic, and so they thought that what they
had to do was go into these like corpses coffins
and get them out and like dismember them to stop
the spread of disease, because they thought that people who
(06:42):
had died were coming out at night and turning everybody
into vampires.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
But it was actually just tuberculosis. Okay, So that combines
like zombies for me in a way.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, but it was like for some reason the lore
had landed on like, oh, these are vampires who come
out at night and wow, yeah, but it is similar.
And that was one of the things that confused me
about No Saratu because I was like, what lare are
we choosing here? But it's because of this part of
history that I did not understand.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Wow, I mean imagine that being part of your nightly routine.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Rituals included burning organs and beheading corpses to prevent vampires
from rising again.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yikes.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So it was because okay, family members had symptoms like
with an ashen appearance and sunken eyes, and sometimes blood
would drip from their mouths and it was spreading from
person to person. So like that was where the science
was at that time, Like, oh, must be vampires.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Damn fascinating. Right.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
There's one story about a Rhode Island farmer named George
Brown who watched consumption kill his wife and then his
two daughters, and then his son became ill.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So George I know.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So then the villagers were like, yo, your family's probably vampires.
Let us take your wife and daughter's bodies out. So
the wife and one of the daughters, they were just bones.
But then the other one, the other girl, had died
in midwinter, and she was like partly preserved, and her
(08:12):
fingernails and hair seemed to have grown, which that's just
like a trick of what happens to your body as
your decomposing. Anyway, they were certain they'd found their vampire.
Cut her heart out burned. It had him drink the
ashes and hope that he'd recover, but then, of course
he also got.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Tuberculous and died.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
George Brown has the worst life I've ever had.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
I know, I never It's so tragic.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Talk about like a mass delusion and like or mass
hysteria and like CULTI group panic.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Is this going viral on TikTok or something because of
the film?
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Like?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Why why is everybody talking about this?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I don't think they are. I think I was just
looking it up for something I'm writing. I just liked
to see because I almost talked about it with Karen
and Georgia. But I was like, I bet you they've
covered it, and I googled it and of course they've
covered it, They've covered everything. But I had never heard
about it, and as someone who's ancestor died in prison
(09:13):
for being a witch in Salem.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Really, yes, yes, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It was like it was like twenty years after the
like main panic and she was old, like she just
died in prison, but the reason she had been in
prison was because she was accused of being a witch. Oh,
oh my god, guys, I'm i a witch definitely. Well,
speaking of culty pieces of American history and culture. Yes,
(09:41):
should we transition into talking to Aquina about that very
thing in the modern era.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
We are back again with Aqina Cox. We were talking
last week about how the entire medical establishment was sort
of looked upon with suspicion.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Let's get right back into it.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, this is fascinating stuff. Part one with you everybody
needs to go listen to. But essentially we were talking
about the group the Moonies that you are part of,
and it sounds like therapy in particular was kind of
off the table for you.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
What was it that brought you in to it?
Speaker 6 (10:24):
Finally, I have to say something that I think I forgot,
which is that instead of going to doctors or therapists,
if you had a real problem, you would go and
get yourself beaten up.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Excuse me.
Speaker 6 (10:41):
Yeah, the Unification Church is so insane. There's like a
giant grab bag and every time you put your hand in,
there's gonna be something else crazy coming up. So it
was like beating the bad spirits out of your body
on your mind.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
And spirits were what would cause illness?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Was that? So who would beat you up?
Speaker 6 (11:06):
So sometimes you would go and and you would just
like there'd be a song playing and you would hit yourself, okay,
And then sometimes it would be like people around you.
And sometimes it would be like an auntie just like
wailing on people. And then I've heard I've heard that
it could get like way worse, which I know it
(11:27):
already sounds very bad, but like they would like beat
up people who like had disabilities or like people or
just like really injure people while they were hitting them.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So that was therapy. Yeah, okay, wow.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Would it be people who had like what if someone
had cancer?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Would that also of course?
Speaker 6 (11:48):
Or it could be that you like made out with someone,
or it could be just that you should go because
you're a good church member. It was like it could
be any reason.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And would it be in a big would it be
like the weddings like in a big sort of ceremony or.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Yeah, well like a couple hundred people, like in a
big room.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Was there any obligation to like say that you had
done something like what?
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Who determined who would get beaten?
Speaker 6 (12:13):
It was it was kind of like anyone. It was
kind of like everyone should go maybe periodically just to
like cleanse yourself.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
So crazy, that is so crazy.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
Yeah, so that was where they were at, not not
going to a seakll.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So I mean, good on you for not writing on
your friends as we talked about last time.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, because they would get Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So were you living in terror all the time of
that happened.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, the stakes were so high.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
Okay, So what I was thinking about because you were
asking me like why I went to college or something,
and I was thinking about how I had a dream
that I went to college before I went to college,
and I told my parents about the dream, and I
was seen as like a spiritual sign that I should
go to college. I was thee about how when I
was growing up, I was acting like I was a
(13:05):
bank teller and there was a bank robber, you know,
and you're like just chit chatting with the robber, you know,
but you're their hostage. Yeah, but now, looking back, I
see all these moves I did, and I'm like, oh shit,
I was like trying to get myself out. Before I
even knew it. I was like, I had this dream
I need to go to college.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Do you really have the dream I did?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
But I feel like it was like college really far
away from my parents, Like I was making these moves
for years.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, would I tell them? Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 6 (13:38):
Yeah, and yeah, it feels very much like I was
a hostage and I didn't know how to advocate for
myself in a way except these like almost subconscious decisions
I was making.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
That's so interesting, and it's really interesting to talk to
people who feel that way too, because they're like, looking
back on it, I can see that I was like backwards, yes,
without even knowing, like getting out of this thing, but
I wasn't even aware of it.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
Yeah, you're like, hi, guys, everything's normal. I'm totally believer.
I just need to go really far away, you know, totally.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Did you have a dream for like a career or
life that you wanted.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
Yeah, So my mom was an artist before she joined
the church, and she wanted me to be an artist.
And then I started to really like art classes and
she was like, you know what you It was almost
like a scientology thing where they're like you could go
and be a musician, but you'll be like almost like
(14:45):
a cultural imbas like right right, Me and him.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Both in New Jersey.
Speaker 6 (14:52):
I don't have my own seven forty seven but maybe soon,
yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So yes.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
My was like you do this thing, but do it
for the church and I was like, okay, I will.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You were like it will not be for me at all.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Oh no no, no, no, no, no for the church
and yeah married.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
Yes, and I'm still married. We left together when we
were in our twenties. How did that conversation start?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
So?
Speaker 6 (15:18):
I thought we were just fine, normal conversation, normal church family.
And one day we were like looking at a church
text together and he threw it against the wall and.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Was like this is bullshit. Wow.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Like those few weeks leading up to it, I was
like something was going on with him and he finally
snapped and I was like, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Don't believe it either. Wow.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
So we just had this like little moment and then
a lot of conversations and freak outs.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Where were like, oh what was that? Did that feel like?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
The weight of the world was just lifted off your
shoulders when your husband was like, this is fugging dumb.
Speaker 6 (15:55):
I feel like it felt like the first true thing
anyone had ever said to me. You know, It's like
the first real interaction where we weren't hiding anything.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And I can imagine how much that would help your
relationship and make it more likely to last because you're
actually being authentic with each other now.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
So there was this leaving was it a process over years?
Speaker 6 (16:23):
I feel like at first we were like, oh, we'll
just leave, but we'll tell everyone. You know, we respect
your religion, but I don't think it's right for us,
so we're gonna take a step back. There's no like
taking a step back in cults out and so like
after a while we're like, actually, no, fuck this shit,
(16:45):
and like, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, because colts don't have boundaries, so it's not a
normal relationship where you can be like we're just gonna
take a little we're gonna set a boundary because it's like, no,
there aren't boundaries, so you can't do that.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Yeah, it's literally like no, but you belong to us, right,
You're ours?
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Yeah, So how did your parents?
Speaker 6 (17:03):
They did not take it super great yea. And I
haven't spoken to them in quite a few years, especially
because at that time they were getting more into the
violent splend call, you know, the one with guns. So yeah,
so and also at the time, my brother was coming
out as trance and so it was like, we're gonna
(17:26):
be over here. I'm gonna be with my brother and
you're gonna be over there in your gun hoarding situation.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Wow. Yeah wow. Any chance you think they'll ever?
Speaker 6 (17:37):
I feel like at this point they have way too
much invested.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah. I don't even know if i'd want.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That for them.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I feel that way about a lot of older family members,
where I'm like, I think it would hurt you too
much at this point, and I don't want you to
die in that much pain. I would rather you believe
in something as long as it's not harming.
Speaker 6 (17:59):
Yeah, I say they don't have their kids. A lot
of their family members like that are not in the
church or keeping them at arm's length, like they don't
have much.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
It's really heartbreaking, I'm sing.
Speaker 6 (18:11):
Yeah, I feel like there's other first gen I know
who've left the church, who are their ages and I'm
really happy for them because they're like getting to retire
and hang out with their grandkids and like having these
awesome moments with their families. But I don't think that's
in the cards from my parents.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Do you talk to anyone who's still a member?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
No?
Speaker 6 (18:37):
I have, uh, or you know what, I feel like,
there's some people where like they talk to me and
their partner is like kind of still in or you know,
there's there's different variations.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Of it, so it's not like you're a suppressive person
like in scientology when you leave.
Speaker 6 (18:55):
It's not so much like that. I think when I
was a kid, if some and like me left, they
would very much be ostracized. But then it got like
a little bit more flexible.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, it seems like things have generally, at least in
the main version of the church, chilled out a bit.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Would you say?
Speaker 6 (19:13):
I feel like maybe it's just like ossified or something
like it. I don't know if it like like it
still sucks, you know, like you're still supposed to get
married super young, you know, tithe to the church stay
really insular. But yeah, maybe it maybe it has gotten a.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Little bit better.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Were the mass beatings like exposed.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Did they stop?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I feel like they're still going on little Yeah, and
the mass weddings are as well, I think so yeah, Okay,
well then never mind, I take.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
You back chill.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
I think it's just getting weirder because, like you know,
the people have stayed, like really doubled down. Yeah, and
then the people who have left are like drifting away already.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
That's that's kind of a theory that I have about
the two by twos is that they are making stupider
rules because they're trying to get people who aren't totally
in to go away so they can have more control
over the people whose stay just the fair.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Whereas the LDS Church Mormons, when it became too much
of a problem the policy of polygamy, they got rid
of that policy. Like it's interesting to see who tries
to attract more people and be like no, no, no,
we're okay yeah, versus school like yeah, closes in and
gets weirder.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I feel like it's getting weirder. I mean, in some
places it's not. Some places they're trying to make it
more normal, but in some places it's getting weirder.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Anyway, Okay, I want to transition to talking a little
bit about the connective tissue that you see between our
current political atmosphere and this particular cult or cults in general. Also,
real quick, you wrote a book called how to talk
to Your Republican Uncle.
Speaker 6 (20:55):
Oh. It was just like it was like essentially a
little scene or artist's book. I wrote it right after
Trump won the first time, because I feel like that
was the first time that you know, until then, I
didn't like talking about my cult upbringing because I felt
like outsiders were just like wanting to know all the
gossipy details and I was like, that's my trauma here
(21:16):
asking about yeah. And then when Trump was elected, like
that night, I realized, like, oh, all my friends who
didn't grow up super religious or inn occult, like they
don't know what this is like, and they don't know
how to talk to people who are like in a cult.
And so I kind of just wrote that with tips
of like how to interact with people that either grew
(21:38):
up in a cult or were like yeah or Republican
voted for Trump.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Different side at the table is your tenant was like
you should or could stand contact or.
Speaker 6 (21:49):
It's like tricky because I have like several ideas about it.
I'm like, either, okay, So say we're at a party
and there's like a bunch of people who are in
the church with me, and someone says something that's like homophobic,
Then in that instance, having a nice little conversation about
that is like not the most important thing to me.
(22:11):
The most important thing for me in that moment would
be to like loudly make sure that like everyone knows
that it's not okay to do that, especially if you
think like there's probably queer kids who are in the
closet around you.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Right, almost like for other people to hear.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
Yeah, But I have had people like come up to
me who were in the church with me and they're like, Keina,
can you explain this whole thing about trans youth. I
don't understand, Like I don't understand it, and they're like
very kind about it and coming from a place of
wanting to know more. And of course then like like
I will take whatever time they need to try and
(22:51):
explain something to them, right, So it's not just like
a blanket like push everyone away or always give them
the time of day. And then there's like my tactics
for dealing with people.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, it always reminds me of that fascinating conversation that
we had with Adrian Black, who was just transitioning when
we interviewed her. She was a former white supremacist oh wow,
who was David Duke's poster child and was like doing
white nationalists radio programs and eventually denounced it and it's
(23:24):
now very outspoken. But she talked about how there were
sort of like two different types of interaction with her beliefs,
and there was like both the people who would loudly
denounce the kinds of thing she would be talking about,
the racism, and then there would be people who would
engage her in real conversation. And she kind of was
(23:47):
talking about how both things are a little bit necessary,
but if it was only the people yelling at her
and not anyone engaging in good faith, it might not
have penetrated. Yeah, and talked about the importance of like
the people around you, like caring about people who maybe
are in the demographic that's being impacted, being one of
(24:07):
the major factors. Yeah, so your community isn't just the
like cult people, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
I would almost like to offer like a third way too.
This is from when I live near the border of
North Korea. I had heard that the South Korean Army
they had their own out speakers and they would announce
what time of day it was, like every ten minutes.
They'd be like, it's one o'clock, one thirty whatever. And
(24:34):
someone explained it to me as they know, the North
Koreans are so poor they don't have watches, and so
they're helping them. But also this is a sign that like,
if the North Koreans can start relying on the South
Koreans for the time of day, maybe it will break
through and they'll realize, like they're not all bullshit.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Why is that making me cry? I don't know. That's
really weird. The most beautiful thing about her.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Wow, Okay, right, so they're kind of unconsciously sending them
I mean, yeah, they're receiving unconsciously the sign that some
trust some trust. So I feel like in my life
growing up, I had like art teachers and stuff who
I think maybe knew a little bit about my background
(25:23):
even though we didn't talk about it. But just like
being able to go over their houses and they would like,
you know, I do watercolors with them and just have
these moments with them. Where I feel like, of course
we didn't talk about the church, but there was something
about showing up where I was like, how are these
out these they were supposed to be my enemy, these
like outsiders. They were like these feminists who were teaching
(25:46):
me art, which was like not looked on very well
in the church. Even I feel like those kinds of
moments can be really important too, Yeah, because you're just subtly,
just by being a nice person, you're kind of undermining
the church narrative.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
That it's the enemy.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, that was sort of what I was inarticulately trying
to say about the community aspect, because like caring about
people who are the people that you've been told are bad,
suddenly them being in your life, Like it doesn't necessarily
have to be a debate, and frequently it wasn't in
her case. And the same is true with our other
former neo Nazi, Frank Mink, who full on neo Nazi,
(26:27):
who started working for a Jewish guy and just by
virtue of the guy being nice and like a good
person to him, it started to break through that belief system.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
So I wasn't actually planning to.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Talk about how to talk to people, but I'm glad
we are because it's always important, especially right now when
so many of us are having really fractured relationships with
our family members. I had a couple of challenging encounters
recently with people in my life about immigration issues, and
I don't think I handled.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
It the best that I could.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
It's really hard because you get, at least I do,
get really heated right away when I feel that people
are being dehumanized, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Like there's no right answer.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
We all have a different role in how we respond
to the people who are engaging that kind of thinking.
But like I wish there was just like a thing
you could do, you know, as script.
Speaker 6 (27:21):
Yeah, I kind of feel like what you did is
probably great because I feel like even just getting upset
is a sign to them like, oh, like you know,
like did I maybe say something wrong or maybe I
should be a little bit more careful before running my
mouth about like dehumanizing other people.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I think that's true in some cases, like when it's peers. Yeah,
But I do think that for people like who watch
Fox News a lot, Yeah, they've been primed to think
that anyone who's like liberal or leftist is hysterical.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Not living in reality.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So for case is like that, I really want to
try to maintain my composure and be like, why do
you think that? Did you know that there's been research
that actually said this, just saying that's why I think it?
Speaker 6 (28:09):
You know, I know some it really helps to sometimes
like read up on some of these issues so you
can like have something in your head where you can
just like throw it out there. I will say, like
I'm good at doing that with some issues more than others.
For like trans writes, I feel like I'm pretty well
read up on that. But weirdly, for like feminists, like
(28:32):
if someone comes in and says something like negative about women,
I feel like then I'm put on the spot, you know,
when it like personally is about could be about me.
I'm like, you know what, I'm going to just shut
off and like leave you alone. Like I'm not gonna
engage with people. I'll leave that to some dude to
like yell at you about or something.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Because it's having to defend your own dignity and humanity.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
To find their own humanity.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, which is why it is so important to
speak up for the groups that we are not in. Yeah,
so let's talk about your Salon article and some of
the parallels that you are seeing right now in our
political environment.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
Well, I was just thinking about how as we talked,
my parents joined the church kind of by being picked
up on this street. And then and with the deep programmers.
Yeah yes, And then there was this big uproar about
like deep programmers and being kidnapped, and the church was saying, hey,
(29:36):
you guys are kidnapping like our members. These are the
stories I grew up on, and I still see the
ripple effects to this day with like family members who
still have fractious relationships to each other. And then of
course with my parents be so over the top armed,
like they're literally in a splender call where they wear
(29:58):
bullet crowns.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Now that's out the bullet crowd.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (30:03):
I thought you were up on your cult knowledge.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
The crowns made of bullet Oh yeah wow. And this
is all in the name of love.
Speaker 6 (30:11):
We have to yeah, yeah, we love you so much.
We need to protect you at all costs.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And that means everybody has a jack. Everyone needs to
have all the guns.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
This is a quote from you. It's reminiscent of when
the Unification Church promoted world peace while manufacturing weapons, or
how the Sanctuary Church created the peace police peace militia.
I don't know why I need peace Twice, I know
a group of armed cult member, a group of armed
cult members quote practicing to be deadly because they love people.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
What's the logic there?
Speaker 6 (30:44):
So I was still talking to my dad when that
peace police idea came about the.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Peace police peace.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Now I've noticed it is a peace militia as well,
so and I remember I didn't argue with him that
much about things growing up, and that's one where I said, like,
that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And he was like, you know, like you could get
raped going to McDonald's, you need to have a gun
with you.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
And I was like, I am a clumsy person because
I've discussed like I'm gonna like shoot myself in the
foot before I cause any harm to others. And that
just I've never liked guns when I was a kid.
We didn't actually have guns when I was a kid,
and so I didn't grow up around them.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
And now your parents are strapped. They have giant weapons
and they're wearing crowns made of bullets. And for the record,
I come from a hunting family in the Midwest, there's
nothing wrong with being a gun owner, like I think, inherently. Sure, No,
not inherently, I mean, and it's necessary to hunt deer
in a lot of the country.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
So when I was a kid in rural Pennsylvania, yes,
some of the church dads had their own little hunting
group and they would go and hunt deer and then
feed up everyone for a while on it. And I
thought that was fine. And I still think that's fine,
even though I'm a vegetarian and I think, yeah, deer
can be a huge problem. That being said, I'm like
(32:12):
not a fan of handguns or most guns, and I'd
be happy if they all got taken away. Yeah, maybe
just give someone a boone arrow or like a musket
or something. Yeah, which, by the way, a lot of
my family used bone arrow. Yeah, my brother's really into
bone and arrow, so like, great, have fun. I will
not do that either, but yeah, so but this is
much different. This is taking like a bunch of assault
(32:33):
rifles and they're also part of their churches, like they
own a gun manufacturing company.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Holy shit.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea of safety
is being weaponized in a very serious way, which obviously
that's a conservative versus progressive thing in general, but right
now in particular, the demonization of immigrants is being you know,
sort of sanitized as keeping the country safe while engaging
(33:02):
in myriad falsehoods about what threat people who are immigrants
actually present to the US, which in fact, they commit
crimes at the significantly.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
Lower rates exactly the people who were born here.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
It's that demonization of an entire group of people for
me that echoes of so much cultic thinking.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
I feel like, so we were talking about how my
parents join at a time where a lot of people
were protesting the Vietnam War, then realizing like, why are
you sending us over there to die? This doesn't make
any sense, Like we can't trust the government. And I
feel like even though the Iraq War is not the
same as the Vietnam War, we didn't have a draft.
(33:42):
I feel like there's been similar conditions over the past
few decades where income inequality has risen to such a
level and most mainstream politicians haven't really at first, they
don't even acknowledge it. You know, Biden was like, well,
you know, the S and B five hundred is up,
or you know, when they would kind of try and
explain it away, or they would offer like these solutions
(34:06):
that didn't really work. And I feel like those conditions
left a country that was just like, hey, we're busting
our asses and we're not making any money. We're like
not able to send our kids to college. Like something
is wrong here. This is not working for us, and
(34:27):
the politicians were not really acknowledging that. And so then
you have people on the right, like Trump and his
cronies giving you at least an answer that makes sense
to you. Yes, and that'sperienced, and it's the only answer
out there right now, and so people have latched onto
(34:50):
that and it makes sense. Like personally, I am super left,
and I don't think any of that is actually accurate,
Like what their escape goes voting and what Trump is
saying is absolutely not correct. But it's giving something for
angry people to keep hold of to make sense of
their world.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
One hundred percent. Did you read Doppelganger?
Speaker 6 (35:11):
I read some of it and my listener interviews.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
I love Nami Klink.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, I'm halfway through the book, but that's that's one
of the major themes of her book as well, which
everybody highly recommend yes, establishment politicians did not provide an
answer for people, which left a vacuum for bad actors
to be like I have.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
The person to blame, and it's people of color.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
Ye, or it's like trans tine, yeah say. And then
you can see with the recent New York election, zoron
mom Donnie, like he's doing really well in New York
because he's prioritizing affordability and things that people actually really
care about. And so there are people who voted for
Trump who are now voting for Zoran who's like very
(35:53):
left wing democratic socialists, but he's you know, not tied
to all these billionaire donors like the rest of the
democratic establishment.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I mean it also echoes of a cult to me
in that there is this billionaire class that is benefiting
from all of the inequality that's happening. And meanwhile, like
the escapegoating, this black and white thinking is being used
as a tool to just.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Make more money and get more power and turn people
against each other in the process.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
Because if they're fighting each other, then they're not noticing
this billionaire pulling the strings.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Right, I will say too, like the two party system
is just always going to like I remember a couple
of years ago, I was like, I don't think Biden
should run for office. I said it on this podcast,
and I got a million DM saying like, you support
Trump and your blah blahlah.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yeah, and I was like, no, I just think he's
going to lose.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
So you weren't really allowed to say that you didn't
think he should run for president.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Like that was like everyone was so stressed out.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah, and so it just got really like complicated because
like people acted like you were a conspiracy theorist who
was crazy. If you were like I don't think he's
like maybe cognitively up for the job, They're like he's great.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
He was like, yeah, yeah, he's the only chance we Yeah,
even though the even though it was terrible, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I'm just gonna sound like Bernie bro Bernie would have won.
I know, I agree with you completely. The two party
system is a huge problem. We have no good options
right now, and it makes sense that people are just
picking whatever sounds like it's going to solve something. But
what doesn't make sense is kidnapping people off this street.
Speaker 6 (37:40):
I know, I know, I just found the first week
kind of happened. I was like, oh, so I've been
worried about my own parents just randomly showing up with
crazy guns, and now everyone gets to worry about like
crazy people showing up with guns and everywhere. Yeah, sorry, guys,
welcome to my world. Although I have to say, like,
(38:04):
you know, as a citizen, and you know, a white person,
I know that I have like way more privilege than
so many of our neighbors out there today.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
As a person with her parents wearing bullet crowns, We're
going to give you some leeway. But you also you're,
like as a fellow white person, Yeah, my parents aren't
wearing bullet grounds though, so you have a little more.
But maybe something I have, like I've experienced this for
so long, maybe I have some insights for people.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Well, thank you doo.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, also pointing out like citizens are being detained as
well and disappearing. And of course, in our last episode
that was not a rewind before we went on hiatus
I talked about Mamu Khalil Mosimadowi, who were legally here
and we're targeted strictly for their speech, which is incredibly dangerous.
(38:53):
A silencing of descent is one of the biggest size,
the biggest side of authoritarianism and even fucking Rosi o'donald
tried to was like she wants her back in Ireland,
threatening to revoke her citizenship this week.
Speaker 6 (39:07):
I mean yeah, but I mean like even besides all that,
there's now like who are these ICE people we don't
even know. Then there's like freaking people pretending to be
Ice right that are like assaulting women on the street.
Ice was in my neighborhood and they were pointing guns
at people just driving by the intersection. They were at
(39:28):
like something's gonna happen. It's not good. We're all like
I don't care who you are. We're all like we're
especially in dangerous.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Yeah, yeah, we're in it.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
But I would urge folks to if you are feelings
has to get involved in the advocacy and like show
up to actions because it's only by like combining forces, and.
Speaker 6 (39:48):
Like what you were saying about protesting and talking to people,
I think the answer is doing everything to combat this.
Like I remember being a little kid and the Unification
Church was protested, and I remember being really scared in
that moment. But I think it was important, really important
for me to see like, Okay, not everyone believes in
(40:10):
this church, maybe take a second look, Like maybe this
doesn't work for the ice assholes who are there, like
right there with the guns, but maybe it gives other
people like a little bit of hesitation or a little
bit like just put something in their brain like why
are all these people.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So upset with me?
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Right? And I think you really said it while in
your article of taking space to do meaningful things in
your community that are small as well so that you
really feel connected to change.
Speaker 6 (40:41):
Well, I think protesting can even be part of that
because you're also out there showing your neighbors that you
care about them. And then there's other things you can
do like buy out your local Tamali stand or you know,
be involved in different groups who are helping patrol and
instead of getting mired in their crazy arguments and getting
lost in their stupid logic, you're like focusing your energy
(41:05):
on like creating a better life for you and your community.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, I think you said plant some seeds, give somebody
some socks, like take it to reality and just said
something simple.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And yeah, I'm just going to shout out Ktown for
All is a great organization here in LA that's been
buying out street vendors to protect them from ice.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
La is also great pization right.
Speaker 6 (41:27):
Natalon is great too. They've been in Pasadena for a
long time. They're the National Day Laborers Organizing Network. And
also right after the Eaten fires, they were on the ground,
like the day after cleaning up all the debris left
in Pasadena, so they were there doing the fires there.
Right now they have a box truck going around making
(41:49):
announcements when ice is around, they're holding vigils. They're like,
there's so I think that's the silver lining of this
moment is seeing like how many heroes we live amongst
where where it's just like all of these like grassroots
groups and people throwing in twenty dollars or stopping the
videotape and ice rate or you know, we're all doing
(42:10):
what we can.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, you mentioned the importance of protests in terms of showing.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
People that you care.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I've read this really great article and now I'm not
going to remember which publication it was, I'll have to
find it, but just talking about how you know, a
lot of us became disillusioned with the idea of protesting
because it felt like it wasn't achieving anything, and in many.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Cases that is true.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
But what it does achieve is it shows people how
other people feel. Yeah, and we can lose sight and
we can become hopeless about being capable of creating any
change when we think that everybody else is living in
a different reality and they don't feel the same way
that we do. And there's something so important about grounding
(42:50):
in reality, like this is the public sentiment on this
issue right now, and so like even when it feels
pointless showing up, can action be impactful? Just at least
in that way to be like, No, we care about immigrants,
and you're not alone if you care about it, and
we're not all giving up, like we're out here and
we're doing it, and so you can hopefully feel inspired.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
To do something too.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yeah, I mean your your take on all of this
is so important and it's just such a cool voice
to hear in both spaces. I'm yeah, pretty obsessed, to
put it mildly, Well, thank you, so you call it
too slowly backs away? Do we have any like words
(43:38):
of wisdom? Like what does real repair look like to you?
Not just exiting thinking, but rejoining civic life in a
meaningful way. That's a great question.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Thanks.
Speaker 6 (43:51):
I don't know if they have an answer. So I
became a parent in the past few years. I will say, like,
in some ways that feels insane to have a child
right now, but in other ways it feels like and
I think you can obviously do this without a kid.
It's just it's been helpful for me to realize that,
(44:12):
like I need to not be consumed by everything going on,
that I have a responsibility for this child to not
trauma dump on him, or I just have a responsibility
to give them a decent childhood and help them navigate
the world. And some part of that is going to
(44:33):
be like navigating this political moment. But I feel like
it's really makes me focus on like his community of
like little friends, and like my community that we live in,
and just doing the generative side of pushing back against
this administration, which is like creating a world that I
(44:54):
want to live in, and focusing on that, whether it's
you know, planting native flowers or buying more local or
supporting my local immigrant rights groups or whatever I'm doing,
it's like I'm trying to focus on that so I'm
not just only doom scrolling and only panicking about our
(45:15):
really really shitty leaders right now. So there's yeah, there's
a focus on like what do I want the future
to be like? And I feel like that can't just
be like, oh, I'm gonna make you know, your room
really pretty or something like. It needs to be like
more substantial than.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
That, right, community oriented, yeah, which is what cults are
so good at supplying.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
So we have to give it in healthy doses.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
Well, I feel like i've been It's funny. I was
listening to a few of your your episodes, and I
feel like, for me, cults are like just a big
abuse of families, you know, Like it's like that same
like dysfunction and abuse, but like instead it's like with
(45:58):
a little bit weirder outfits, but it's basically the same thing, right,
And so with an abusive family or abusive relationship, it's like,
you know, the person will tell you I love you,
I love you, I love you, but then they're also
like hurting you at the same time, and that happens
with cults and other dysfunctional relationships, and it's definitely, yeah,
(46:18):
not healthy at all, and so you have to figure
out what's healthy for you.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Easier said than done.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Sometimes, Yeah, I feel like a lot of that is
like working on yourself and figuring out, like what what
your own broken parts aren't trying to heal that, and
getting outside perspective from someone completely uninvolved, because we lose
perspective a lot of the time. I know, especially I
just think about relationships that have become unhealthy. It can
(46:49):
be so hard to like understand what is actually hurting
you until you tell someone else and they're like, that's
not normal, you know.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
Yeah, Yeah, And just having a lot of different trusted
sources in your life.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
We always come back to that, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (47:02):
And like having enough time to like, like whether it's
taking walks or doing yoga, not a yoga cult, but
like doing it, like doing things that like are very quiet,
so that if there are alarm bells, like you're giving
yourself the time to hear them. That's so true, because yeah,
if you don't stop, I feel like it's easier to
(47:24):
get wrapped around the axle.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Amazing.
Speaker 4 (47:29):
We're gonna start using that point in every episode from
now on.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Truly, there was the guy on the Sarah Lawrence Stock
who got away from everybody for like two minutes and
it clicked for him.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Yeah, I mean that's we hear that story over and
over again.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, And I think it's true in our political climate too,
in terms of making sure you're taking space to consider
what you're feeling, because we're activated all the time.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Because they want us to be activated. I know that
sounds really like conspiracy. Thereis, but like, I feel like
the way that these billionaires keep getting to stay in
power is because we're all like so freaked out. We're overwhelmed,
and we're overwhelmed, and they're trying to make us feel
overwhelmed so that we're more easily gullible and controlled.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Totally if you yes, totally, and also at the same
time sometimes you know, like if you do check out completely,
oh yeah, then you're avoiding and you're not. So it's
like it's just a constant balancing act. I just keep
seeing memes where it's like people basically doing the splits
like between two buildings and being like me trying to
take space to not let this take over my life,
(48:34):
and me trying to like make sure I'm actually contributing
on the other side, you know, and it's it's very hard.
Speaker 6 (48:39):
And I feel like for me, the answer changes all
the time, and I'm okay, with that, Like, I feel
like I used to work more with organizations and lately
I don't have the ability to do that in my
day to day life. So I've been doing stuff like
I wrote that article because I was like, oh, that's
something I can do on my own in the free
time I have. You go, it fluctuates over time. Yeah,
(49:02):
I feel like it fluctuates over time.
Speaker 5 (49:04):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (49:04):
One tip I have is when I feel like I
can't deal with the news for a bit, what I
try and do is read a book of nonfiction, especially
like a book of history that's like, you know, maybe
about FDR or something where you're like still learning more
about the world, but it's not like the world right now.
So something that helps give a little context, but you're
(49:25):
not getting sucked into the twenty four to seven Twitter feed.
Speaker 4 (49:29):
Yeah it's smart. I just watched the Winston Churchill doc on.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Oh was it good? It's sah okay.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I've just been watching Adam Curtis docs. I pus watched
his film No No. Incredible filmmaker. He makes these political
historical documentaries that kind of weave together these like larger
narratives about what's happened from a leftist perspective, yeah, or
anti capitalist perspective generally, but so smart and he's incorporating
(49:58):
so many different cultures and movements that are happening all
at the same time.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
Anyway, I highly recommend Adam Curtis nice.
Speaker 6 (50:04):
I read I think It's Called Say Nothing by Patrick
rad and Kief, which was about the troubles in Ireland,
and then I read a bunch of detective stories set
around the troubles in Ireland.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
These detective stories were true.
Speaker 6 (50:18):
No, those were fiction, got those were just for fun.
But I did read like a couple of nonfiction books.
I was just like getting in that era.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, no, why arranging and fascinating conversation.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
And where do people find you?
Speaker 6 (50:37):
I have a website aquinacoxs dot com and I think
there's links for what I'm up to there. Yeah cool,
Thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
That concludes our interview with Aquina Cox. I am so
glad that she joined us in person. What an amazing
first guest to have as our first episodes back with
Trust Me.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
Yeah, that was a really great first guest. So grateful
that she made the time to come in and speak with.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Us same and I'm excited to keep going with our
new home and so many more wonderful guests to come
just to recap a bit of what we talked about.
So there are organizations that if anyone in LA wants
to get involved with to combat the dehumanization and mass
deportation of people who are immigrants that is currently happening.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Check out k Town for All.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
They do great, great local work helping not only the
unhoused population but also people who are at risk of
iced deportation. Chir Law, the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights
Union Del Barrio does some really amazing stuff as well
as La Tenants Union, and there are more I'm learning
about all the time. And this is all to say
(51:47):
if you're feeling panicked like I am, one of the
things that can really help is at least taking some
small action to feel like you have some agency over
at least your little corner of the city or the world.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yes, consistent small action indeed, and indeed, thank you for
listening to an episode of Trust Me. We can't wait
to see you again next week. Make sure to rate
us five stars if you're going to rate us less
than just don't even bother it, and as always, remember
to follow your gut, watch out for red Flatt, and
never ever trust me.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted
by Me.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Holly.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kottner.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark
and Daniell Kramer.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
or on TikTok at trust Me Cult podcast.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Listen to trust Me on the i heeartradio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 1 (53:10):
M
Trust me?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Do you trust me? Right?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Everly?
Speaker 4 (00:05):
And you astray?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
and manipulation from two American girls have actually experienced it.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
I Am Lola Blanc and I Am Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Today's part two of our interview with the wonderful Aqina Cox,
artist and writer who grew up in the Moonies or
at the Unification Church. She is going to share more
about her experiences in the church, including its physical punishment rituals,
and where the church stands now.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
We'll then transition into discussing the cult like patterns of
the current state of American politics and will debate how
to approach political disagreements with loved ones. We'll discuss her
article for Salon in which she exposes how the Trump
administration employs many of the same tactics used by Reverend
Moon and how high control groups tend to choose group
to scapegoat for their problems.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Plus the demonization of immigrants and trans folks, the realities
of ice kidnappings, and how the failures of political leadership
to effectively address income inequality in America created an opening
for demagogues to thrive. It's a chunky one, it's a
meadia one. Indeed, for those who want to read Aquina's article,
it is called as a former mooney, Trump's cult tactics
(01:24):
are eerily familiar, and she did write that for Salon,
So go ahead and read that if you would like.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Before we get into all things America with Aquina Megan,
what's your cultiest.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Thing of the week.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Okay, so this week we recorded my favorite murder.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
We got to be on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, yay.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
And I have to admit there was this deep fear
inside of me that I would die before it happened.
And it's a very like two by two belief that
which is the group that I was raised in, that like,
before you you do something that maybe would bring more
attention and a negative light, you would die.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Does that make sense? Yes? So I was like, there's
no way.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I'm like, even though I don't believe in it, there
was still this fear in me that something would happen.
And I'm like, like, let's say I do die soon. Okay,
let's hope not. Let's hope not, but people in the
two by twos would say it's because I was speaking
out about it. And this is annoying to me because
I'm very clumsy. Like the other day, I had my
(02:30):
window open, and I have one of those windows that
just open straight out it like you could fall out
of it, you know, And I was like trying to
pick up my cat wearing cowboy booths, and I almost
fella out of the hold. My god, and I would
have I would have literally died, and it would have
been instead of just, you know, slightly tragic and kind
(02:51):
of funny, a lesson to be learned at conventions forever.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And another annoying thing.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
For the two by twos is like whenever there's a tragedy,
they're like, but everybody, all the friends, that's what they're called,
we're safe.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
And it's like, well, what about the people who weren't.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Or or or if you die like leaving a convention
or going to a convention or something, it's like, oh,
that's so great they died on their way to Like like,
it's just the dumble, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
It's never fair. It's like if you died when you
were saying something.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Bad about the two by twos, it's because you were
saying something bad and if you die going to do
something great. For the two by twos, it's because God
is like rewarding you.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's just, oh, I was I thought you were going
to say, if you died going to something, it was
because Satan was intervening and trying to stop you from
doing the good work, which is I think what I
want to have been told.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
No, it's like, well maybe both.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I just remember these two boys died leaving a convention
one year, which is like basically convention as like two
x two's four day long meeting. I can't it's a
whole other conversation, but they'd leaving it, and it was
very like you wanted to die leaving convention. Ah yeah, no, yeah,
(04:07):
I hate that because you were like, I'm I've been
filled with all these things for four days. I've been
away from the world for four days. Like take me
now before I send again. Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
So just as like a clumsy person, maybe not the
best driver, maybe you know a few things that I
could really work on. I just want people to know
this is a PSA. If I die, it's because of me.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Now I'm worried about you.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Now I feel like we're in final destination and I
have to like be looking around every corner to see
if you're going to trip on a knife or something.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Well, my cat and I did come to the conclusion
that the windows shouldn't be open that far.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
We're not going to do that anymore.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And for the record, listeners, she lives in the hills
like it's it's not like just the ground outside like
she would die. So okay, you for real need like
some screens or something that's wild.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So that's my cultiest thing of the week. What about you,
what's your cultist thing in the week?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Once again, and this will be a pattern for me,
listeners will discover My actual cultiest thing of the week
is America and is concern about a lot of things
going on in America and in Gaza where people who
are seeking just simply to feed their families as they
are starving or getting shot, and the US, of course
is still condoning it and paying for a lot of it.
(05:35):
So please call your representatives and tell them that you
would like that to stop. But besides that, I was
learning about a part of history that actually I think
MFM listeners will probably be familiar with, but I was not.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Which is the New England vampire panic. Do you know
about this?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
You you were talking to me about it the other day.
Tell me more, because no, I don't, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So it's not exactly like this Salem Witch Trials because
in the Salem Witch Trials, obviously they killed a fuck
ton of people who didn't need to die. This was
more like just messing with people's bodies after death. And
now I understand more the context for the film No
s Feratu, because when I was watching it, I was
like disease and vampires. I'm confused, but now it makes
(06:20):
more sense to me. So New Englanders in the late
eighteenth and early nineteenth century believed in vampires due to
the tuberculosis epidemic, and so they thought that what they
had to do was go into these like corpses coffins
and get them out and like dismember them to stop
the spread of disease, because they thought that people who
(06:42):
had died were coming out at night and turning everybody
into vampires.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
But it was actually just tuberculosis. Okay, So that combines
like zombies for me in a way.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, but it was like for some reason the lore
had landed on like, oh, these are vampires who come
out at night and wow, yeah, but it is similar.
And that was one of the things that confused me
about No Saratu because I was like, what lare are
we choosing here? But it's because of this part of
history that I did not understand.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Wow, I mean imagine that being part of your nightly routine.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Rituals included burning organs and beheading corpses to prevent vampires
from rising again.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yikes.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So it was because okay, family members had symptoms like
with an ashen appearance and sunken eyes, and sometimes blood
would drip from their mouths and it was spreading from
person to person. So like that was where the science
was at that time, Like, oh, must be vampires.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Damn fascinating. Right.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
There's one story about a Rhode Island farmer named George
Brown who watched consumption kill his wife and then his
two daughters, and then his son became ill.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So George I know.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So then the villagers were like, yo, your family's probably vampires.
Let us take your wife and daughter's bodies out. So
the wife and one of the daughters, they were just bones.
But then the other one, the other girl, had died
in midwinter, and she was like partly preserved, and her
(08:12):
fingernails and hair seemed to have grown, which that's just
like a trick of what happens to your body as
your decomposing. Anyway, they were certain they'd found their vampire.
Cut her heart out burned. It had him drink the
ashes and hope that he'd recover, but then, of course
he also got.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Tuberculous and died.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
George Brown has the worst life I've ever had.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
I know, I never It's so tragic.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Talk about like a mass delusion and like or mass
hysteria and like CULTI group panic.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Is this going viral on TikTok or something because of
the film?
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Like?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Why why is everybody talking about this?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I don't think they are. I think I was just
looking it up for something I'm writing. I just liked
to see because I almost talked about it with Karen
and Georgia. But I was like, I bet you they've
covered it, and I googled it and of course they've
covered it, They've covered everything. But I had never heard
about it, and as someone who's ancestor died in prison
(09:13):
for being a witch in Salem.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Really, yes, yes, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It was like it was like twenty years after the
like main panic and she was old, like she just
died in prison, but the reason she had been in
prison was because she was accused of being a witch. Oh,
oh my god, guys, I'm i a witch definitely. Well,
speaking of culty pieces of American history and culture. Yes,
(09:41):
should we transition into talking to Aquina about that very
thing in the modern era.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
We are back again with Aqina Cox. We were talking
last week about how the entire medical establishment was sort
of looked upon with suspicion.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Let's get right back into it.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, this is fascinating stuff. Part one with you everybody
needs to go listen to. But essentially we were talking
about the group the Moonies that you are part of,
and it sounds like therapy in particular was kind of
off the table for you.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
What was it that brought you in to it?
Speaker 6 (10:24):
Finally, I have to say something that I think I forgot,
which is that instead of going to doctors or therapists,
if you had a real problem, you would go and
get yourself beaten up.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Excuse me.
Speaker 6 (10:41):
Yeah, the Unification Church is so insane. There's like a
giant grab bag and every time you put your hand in,
there's gonna be something else crazy coming up. So it
was like beating the bad spirits out of your body
on your mind.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
And spirits were what would cause illness?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Was that? So who would beat you up?
Speaker 6 (11:06):
So sometimes you would go and and you would just
like there'd be a song playing and you would hit yourself, okay,
And then sometimes it would be like people around you.
And sometimes it would be like an auntie just like
wailing on people. And then I've heard I've heard that
it could get like way worse, which I know it
(11:27):
already sounds very bad, but like they would like beat
up people who like had disabilities or like people or
just like really injure people while they were hitting them.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So that was therapy. Yeah, okay, wow.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Would it be people who had like what if someone
had cancer?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Would that also of course?
Speaker 6 (11:48):
Or it could be that you like made out with someone,
or it could be just that you should go because
you're a good church member. It was like it could
be any reason.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And would it be in a big would it be
like the weddings like in a big sort of ceremony or.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Yeah, well like a couple hundred people, like in a
big room.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Was there any obligation to like say that you had
done something like what?
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Who determined who would get beaten?
Speaker 6 (12:13):
It was it was kind of like anyone. It was
kind of like everyone should go maybe periodically just to
like cleanse yourself.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
So crazy, that is so crazy.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
Yeah, so that was where they were at, not not
going to a seakll.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So I mean, good on you for not writing on
your friends as we talked about last time.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, because they would get Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So were you living in terror all the time of
that happened.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, the stakes were so high.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
Okay, So what I was thinking about because you were
asking me like why I went to college or something,
and I was thinking about how I had a dream
that I went to college before I went to college,
and I told my parents about the dream, and I
was seen as like a spiritual sign that I should
go to college. I was thee about how when I
was growing up, I was acting like I was a
(13:05):
bank teller and there was a bank robber, you know,
and you're like just chit chatting with the robber, you know,
but you're their hostage. Yeah, but now, looking back, I
see all these moves I did, and I'm like, oh shit,
I was like trying to get myself out. Before I
even knew it. I was like, I had this dream
I need to go to college.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Do you really have the dream I did?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
But I feel like it was like college really far
away from my parents, Like I was making these moves
for years.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, would I tell them? Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 6 (13:38):
Yeah, and yeah, it feels very much like I was
a hostage and I didn't know how to advocate for
myself in a way except these like almost subconscious decisions
I was making.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
That's so interesting, and it's really interesting to talk to
people who feel that way too, because they're like, looking
back on it, I can see that I was like backwards, yes,
without even knowing, like getting out of this thing, but
I wasn't even aware of it.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
Yeah, you're like, hi, guys, everything's normal. I'm totally believer.
I just need to go really far away, you know, totally.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Did you have a dream for like a career or
life that you wanted.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
Yeah, So my mom was an artist before she joined
the church, and she wanted me to be an artist.
And then I started to really like art classes and
she was like, you know what you It was almost
like a scientology thing where they're like you could go
and be a musician, but you'll be like almost like
(14:45):
a cultural imbas like right right, Me and him.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Both in New Jersey.
Speaker 6 (14:52):
I don't have my own seven forty seven but maybe soon,
yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So yes.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
My was like you do this thing, but do it
for the church and I was like, okay, I will.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You were like it will not be for me at all.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Oh no no, no, no, no, no for the church
and yeah married.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
Yes, and I'm still married. We left together when we
were in our twenties. How did that conversation start?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
So?
Speaker 6 (15:18):
I thought we were just fine, normal conversation, normal church family.
And one day we were like looking at a church
text together and he threw it against the wall and.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Was like this is bullshit. Wow.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Like those few weeks leading up to it, I was
like something was going on with him and he finally
snapped and I was like, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Don't believe it either. Wow.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
So we just had this like little moment and then
a lot of conversations and freak outs.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Where were like, oh what was that? Did that feel like?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
The weight of the world was just lifted off your
shoulders when your husband was like, this is fugging dumb.
Speaker 6 (15:55):
I feel like it felt like the first true thing
anyone had ever said to me. You know, It's like
the first real interaction where we weren't hiding anything.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And I can imagine how much that would help your
relationship and make it more likely to last because you're
actually being authentic with each other now.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
So there was this leaving was it a process over years?
Speaker 6 (16:23):
I feel like at first we were like, oh, we'll
just leave, but we'll tell everyone. You know, we respect
your religion, but I don't think it's right for us,
so we're gonna take a step back. There's no like
taking a step back in cults out and so like
after a while we're like, actually, no, fuck this shit,
(16:45):
and like, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, because colts don't have boundaries, so it's not a
normal relationship where you can be like we're just gonna
take a little we're gonna set a boundary because it's like, no,
there aren't boundaries, so you can't do that.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Yeah, it's literally like no, but you belong to us, right,
You're ours?
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Yeah, So how did your parents?
Speaker 6 (17:03):
They did not take it super great yea. And I
haven't spoken to them in quite a few years, especially
because at that time they were getting more into the
violent splend call, you know, the one with guns. So yeah,
so and also at the time, my brother was coming
out as trance and so it was like, we're gonna
(17:26):
be over here. I'm gonna be with my brother and
you're gonna be over there in your gun hoarding situation.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Wow. Yeah wow. Any chance you think they'll ever?
Speaker 6 (17:37):
I feel like at this point they have way too
much invested.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah. I don't even know if i'd want.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That for them.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I feel that way about a lot of older family members,
where I'm like, I think it would hurt you too
much at this point, and I don't want you to
die in that much pain. I would rather you believe
in something as long as it's not harming.
Speaker 6 (17:59):
Yeah, I say they don't have their kids. A lot
of their family members like that are not in the
church or keeping them at arm's length, like they don't
have much.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
It's really heartbreaking, I'm sing.
Speaker 6 (18:11):
Yeah, I feel like there's other first gen I know
who've left the church, who are their ages and I'm
really happy for them because they're like getting to retire
and hang out with their grandkids and like having these
awesome moments with their families. But I don't think that's
in the cards from my parents.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Do you talk to anyone who's still a member?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
No?
Speaker 6 (18:37):
I have, uh, or you know what, I feel like,
there's some people where like they talk to me and
their partner is like kind of still in or you know,
there's there's different variations.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Of it, so it's not like you're a suppressive person
like in scientology when you leave.
Speaker 6 (18:55):
It's not so much like that. I think when I
was a kid, if some and like me left, they
would very much be ostracized. But then it got like
a little bit more flexible.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, it seems like things have generally, at least in
the main version of the church, chilled out a bit.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Would you say?
Speaker 6 (19:13):
I feel like maybe it's just like ossified or something
like it. I don't know if it like like it
still sucks, you know, like you're still supposed to get
married super young, you know, tithe to the church stay
really insular. But yeah, maybe it maybe it has gotten a.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Little bit better.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Were the mass beatings like exposed.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Did they stop?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I feel like they're still going on little Yeah, and
the mass weddings are as well, I think so yeah, Okay,
well then never mind, I take.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
You back chill.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
I think it's just getting weirder because, like you know,
the people have stayed, like really doubled down. Yeah, and
then the people who have left are like drifting away already.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
That's that's kind of a theory that I have about
the two by twos is that they are making stupider
rules because they're trying to get people who aren't totally
in to go away so they can have more control
over the people whose stay just the fair.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Whereas the LDS Church Mormons, when it became too much
of a problem the policy of polygamy, they got rid
of that policy. Like it's interesting to see who tries
to attract more people and be like no, no, no,
we're okay yeah, versus school like yeah, closes in and
gets weirder.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I feel like it's getting weirder. I mean, in some
places it's not. Some places they're trying to make it
more normal, but in some places it's getting weirder.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Anyway, Okay, I want to transition to talking a little
bit about the connective tissue that you see between our
current political atmosphere and this particular cult or cults in general. Also,
real quick, you wrote a book called how to talk
to Your Republican Uncle.
Speaker 6 (20:55):
Oh. It was just like it was like essentially a
little scene or artist's book. I wrote it right after
Trump won the first time, because I feel like that
was the first time that you know, until then, I
didn't like talking about my cult upbringing because I felt
like outsiders were just like wanting to know all the
gossipy details and I was like, that's my trauma here
(21:16):
asking about yeah. And then when Trump was elected, like
that night, I realized, like, oh, all my friends who
didn't grow up super religious or inn occult, like they
don't know what this is like, and they don't know
how to talk to people who are like in a cult.
And so I kind of just wrote that with tips
of like how to interact with people that either grew
(21:38):
up in a cult or were like yeah or Republican
voted for Trump.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Different side at the table is your tenant was like
you should or could stand contact or.
Speaker 6 (21:49):
It's like tricky because I have like several ideas about it.
I'm like, either, okay, So say we're at a party
and there's like a bunch of people who are in
the church with me, and someone says something that's like homophobic,
Then in that instance, having a nice little conversation about
that is like not the most important thing to me.
(22:11):
The most important thing for me in that moment would
be to like loudly make sure that like everyone knows
that it's not okay to do that, especially if you
think like there's probably queer kids who are in the
closet around you.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Right, almost like for other people to hear.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
Yeah, But I have had people like come up to
me who were in the church with me and they're like, Keina,
can you explain this whole thing about trans youth. I
don't understand, Like I don't understand it, and they're like
very kind about it and coming from a place of
wanting to know more. And of course then like like
I will take whatever time they need to try and
(22:51):
explain something to them, right, So it's not just like
a blanket like push everyone away or always give them
the time of day. And then there's like my tactics
for dealing with people.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, it always reminds me of that fascinating conversation that
we had with Adrian Black, who was just transitioning when
we interviewed her. She was a former white supremacist oh wow,
who was David Duke's poster child and was like doing
white nationalists radio programs and eventually denounced it and it's
(23:24):
now very outspoken. But she talked about how there were
sort of like two different types of interaction with her beliefs,
and there was like both the people who would loudly
denounce the kinds of thing she would be talking about,
the racism, and then there would be people who would
engage her in real conversation. And she kind of was
(23:47):
talking about how both things are a little bit necessary,
but if it was only the people yelling at her
and not anyone engaging in good faith, it might not
have penetrated. Yeah, and talked about the importance of like
the people around you, like caring about people who maybe
are in the demographic that's being impacted, being one of
(24:07):
the major factors. Yeah, so your community isn't just the
like cult people, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
I would almost like to offer like a third way too.
This is from when I live near the border of
North Korea. I had heard that the South Korean Army
they had their own out speakers and they would announce
what time of day it was, like every ten minutes.
They'd be like, it's one o'clock, one thirty whatever. And
(24:34):
someone explained it to me as they know, the North
Koreans are so poor they don't have watches, and so
they're helping them. But also this is a sign that like,
if the North Koreans can start relying on the South
Koreans for the time of day, maybe it will break
through and they'll realize, like they're not all bullshit.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Why is that making me cry? I don't know. That's
really weird. The most beautiful thing about her.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Wow, Okay, right, so they're kind of unconsciously sending them
I mean, yeah, they're receiving unconsciously the sign that some
trust some trust. So I feel like in my life
growing up, I had like art teachers and stuff who
I think maybe knew a little bit about my background
(25:23):
even though we didn't talk about it. But just like
being able to go over their houses and they would like,
you know, I do watercolors with them and just have
these moments with them. Where I feel like, of course
we didn't talk about the church, but there was something
about showing up where I was like, how are these
out these they were supposed to be my enemy, these
like outsiders. They were like these feminists who were teaching
(25:46):
me art, which was like not looked on very well
in the church. Even I feel like those kinds of
moments can be really important too, Yeah, because you're just subtly,
just by being a nice person, you're kind of undermining
the church narrative.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
That it's the enemy.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, that was sort of what I was inarticulately trying
to say about the community aspect, because like caring about
people who are the people that you've been told are bad,
suddenly them being in your life, Like it doesn't necessarily
have to be a debate, and frequently it wasn't in
her case. And the same is true with our other
former neo Nazi, Frank Mink, who full on neo Nazi,
(26:27):
who started working for a Jewish guy and just by
virtue of the guy being nice and like a good
person to him, it started to break through that belief system.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
So I wasn't actually planning to.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Talk about how to talk to people, but I'm glad
we are because it's always important, especially right now when
so many of us are having really fractured relationships with
our family members. I had a couple of challenging encounters
recently with people in my life about immigration issues, and
I don't think I handled.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
It the best that I could.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
It's really hard because you get, at least I do,
get really heated right away when I feel that people
are being dehumanized, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Like there's no right answer.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
We all have a different role in how we respond
to the people who are engaging that kind of thinking.
But like I wish there was just like a thing
you could do, you know, as script.
Speaker 6 (27:21):
Yeah, I kind of feel like what you did is
probably great because I feel like even just getting upset
is a sign to them like, oh, like you know,
like did I maybe say something wrong or maybe I
should be a little bit more careful before running my
mouth about like dehumanizing other people.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I think that's true in some cases, like when it's peers. Yeah,
But I do think that for people like who watch
Fox News a lot, Yeah, they've been primed to think
that anyone who's like liberal or leftist is hysterical.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Not living in reality.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So for case is like that, I really want to
try to maintain my composure and be like, why do
you think that? Did you know that there's been research
that actually said this, just saying that's why I think it?
Speaker 6 (28:09):
You know, I know some it really helps to sometimes
like read up on some of these issues so you
can like have something in your head where you can
just like throw it out there. I will say, like
I'm good at doing that with some issues more than others.
For like trans writes, I feel like I'm pretty well
read up on that. But weirdly, for like feminists, like
(28:32):
if someone comes in and says something like negative about women,
I feel like then I'm put on the spot, you know,
when it like personally is about could be about me.
I'm like, you know what, I'm going to just shut
off and like leave you alone. Like I'm not gonna
engage with people. I'll leave that to some dude to
like yell at you about or something.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Because it's having to defend your own dignity and humanity.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
To find their own humanity.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, which is why it is so important to
speak up for the groups that we are not in. Yeah,
so let's talk about your Salon article and some of
the parallels that you are seeing right now in our
political environment.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
Well, I was just thinking about how as we talked,
my parents joined the church kind of by being picked
up on this street. And then and with the deep programmers.
Yeah yes, And then there was this big uproar about
like deep programmers and being kidnapped, and the church was saying, hey,
(29:36):
you guys are kidnapping like our members. These are the
stories I grew up on, and I still see the
ripple effects to this day with like family members who
still have fractious relationships to each other. And then of
course with my parents be so over the top armed,
like they're literally in a splender call where they wear
(29:58):
bullet crowns.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Now that's out the bullet crowd.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (30:03):
I thought you were up on your cult knowledge.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
The crowns made of bullet Oh yeah wow. And this
is all in the name of love.
Speaker 6 (30:11):
We have to yeah, yeah, we love you so much.
We need to protect you at all costs.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And that means everybody has a jack. Everyone needs to
have all the guns.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
This is a quote from you. It's reminiscent of when
the Unification Church promoted world peace while manufacturing weapons, or
how the Sanctuary Church created the peace police peace militia.
I don't know why I need peace Twice, I know
a group of armed cult member, a group of armed
cult members quote practicing to be deadly because they love people.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
What's the logic there?
Speaker 6 (30:44):
So I was still talking to my dad when that
peace police idea came about the.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Peace police peace.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Now I've noticed it is a peace militia as well,
so and I remember I didn't argue with him that
much about things growing up, and that's one where I said, like,
that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
And he was like, you know, like you could get
raped going to McDonald's, you need to have a gun
with you.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
And I was like, I am a clumsy person because
I've discussed like I'm gonna like shoot myself in the
foot before I cause any harm to others. And that
just I've never liked guns when I was a kid.
We didn't actually have guns when I was a kid,
and so I didn't grow up around them.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
And now your parents are strapped. They have giant weapons
and they're wearing crowns made of bullets. And for the record,
I come from a hunting family in the Midwest, there's
nothing wrong with being a gun owner, like I think, inherently. Sure, No,
not inherently, I mean, and it's necessary to hunt deer
in a lot of the country.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
So when I was a kid in rural Pennsylvania, yes,
some of the church dads had their own little hunting
group and they would go and hunt deer and then
feed up everyone for a while on it. And I
thought that was fine. And I still think that's fine,
even though I'm a vegetarian and I think, yeah, deer
can be a huge problem. That being said, I'm like
(32:12):
not a fan of handguns or most guns, and I'd
be happy if they all got taken away. Yeah, maybe
just give someone a boone arrow or like a musket
or something. Yeah, which, by the way, a lot of
my family used bone arrow. Yeah, my brother's really into
bone and arrow, so like, great, have fun. I will
not do that either, but yeah, so but this is
much different. This is taking like a bunch of assault
(32:33):
rifles and they're also part of their churches, like they
own a gun manufacturing company.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Holy shit.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea of safety
is being weaponized in a very serious way, which obviously
that's a conservative versus progressive thing in general, but right
now in particular, the demonization of immigrants is being you know,
sort of sanitized as keeping the country safe while engaging
(33:02):
in myriad falsehoods about what threat people who are immigrants
actually present to the US, which in fact, they commit
crimes at the significantly.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
Lower rates exactly the people who were born here.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
It's that demonization of an entire group of people for
me that echoes of so much cultic thinking.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
I feel like, so we were talking about how my
parents join at a time where a lot of people
were protesting the Vietnam War, then realizing like, why are
you sending us over there to die? This doesn't make
any sense, Like we can't trust the government. And I
feel like even though the Iraq War is not the
same as the Vietnam War, we didn't have a draft.
(33:42):
I feel like there's been similar conditions over the past
few decades where income inequality has risen to such a
level and most mainstream politicians haven't really at first, they
don't even acknowledge it. You know, Biden was like, well,
you know, the S and B five hundred is up,
or you know, when they would kind of try and
explain it away, or they would offer like these solutions
(34:06):
that didn't really work. And I feel like those conditions
left a country that was just like, hey, we're busting
our asses and we're not making any money. We're like
not able to send our kids to college. Like something
is wrong here. This is not working for us, and
(34:27):
the politicians were not really acknowledging that. And so then
you have people on the right, like Trump and his
cronies giving you at least an answer that makes sense
to you. Yes, and that'sperienced, and it's the only answer
out there right now, and so people have latched onto
(34:50):
that and it makes sense. Like personally, I am super left,
and I don't think any of that is actually accurate,
Like what their escape goes voting and what Trump is
saying is absolutely not correct. But it's giving something for
angry people to keep hold of to make sense of
their world.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
One hundred percent. Did you read Doppelganger?
Speaker 6 (35:11):
I read some of it and my listener interviews.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
I love Nami Klink.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, I'm halfway through the book, but that's that's one
of the major themes of her book as well, which
everybody highly recommend yes, establishment politicians did not provide an
answer for people, which left a vacuum for bad actors
to be like I have.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
The person to blame, and it's people of color.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
Ye, or it's like trans tine, yeah say. And then
you can see with the recent New York election, zoron
mom Donnie, like he's doing really well in New York
because he's prioritizing affordability and things that people actually really
care about. And so there are people who voted for
Trump who are now voting for Zoran who's like very
(35:53):
left wing democratic socialists, but he's you know, not tied
to all these billionaire donors like the rest of the
democratic establishment.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I mean it also echoes of a cult to me
in that there is this billionaire class that is benefiting
from all of the inequality that's happening. And meanwhile, like
the escapegoating, this black and white thinking is being used
as a tool to just.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
Make more money and get more power and turn people
against each other in the process.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
Because if they're fighting each other, then they're not noticing
this billionaire pulling the strings.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Right, I will say too, like the two party system
is just always going to like I remember a couple
of years ago, I was like, I don't think Biden
should run for office. I said it on this podcast,
and I got a million DM saying like, you support
Trump and your blah blahlah.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yeah, and I was like, no, I just think he's
going to lose.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
So you weren't really allowed to say that you didn't
think he should run for president.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Like that was like everyone was so stressed out.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah, and so it just got really like complicated because
like people acted like you were a conspiracy theorist who
was crazy. If you were like I don't think he's
like maybe cognitively up for the job, They're like he's great.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
He was like, yeah, yeah, he's the only chance we Yeah,
even though the even though it was terrible, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I'm just gonna sound like Bernie bro Bernie would have won.
I know, I agree with you completely. The two party
system is a huge problem. We have no good options
right now, and it makes sense that people are just
picking whatever sounds like it's going to solve something. But
what doesn't make sense is kidnapping people off this street.
Speaker 6 (37:40):
I know, I know, I just found the first week
kind of happened. I was like, oh, so I've been
worried about my own parents just randomly showing up with
crazy guns, and now everyone gets to worry about like
crazy people showing up with guns and everywhere. Yeah, sorry, guys,
welcome to my world. Although I have to say, like,
(38:04):
you know, as a citizen, and you know, a white person,
I know that I have like way more privilege than
so many of our neighbors out there today.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
As a person with her parents wearing bullet crowns, We're
going to give you some leeway. But you also you're,
like as a fellow white person, Yeah, my parents aren't
wearing bullet grounds though, so you have a little more.
But maybe something I have, like I've experienced this for
so long, maybe I have some insights for people.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Well, thank you doo.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, also pointing out like citizens are being detained as
well and disappearing. And of course, in our last episode
that was not a rewind before we went on hiatus
I talked about Mamu Khalil Mosimadowi, who were legally here
and we're targeted strictly for their speech, which is incredibly dangerous.
(38:53):
A silencing of descent is one of the biggest size,
the biggest side of authoritarianism and even fucking Rosi o'donald
tried to was like she wants her back in Ireland,
threatening to revoke her citizenship this week.
Speaker 6 (39:07):
I mean yeah, but I mean like even besides all that,
there's now like who are these ICE people we don't
even know. Then there's like freaking people pretending to be
Ice right that are like assaulting women on the street.
Ice was in my neighborhood and they were pointing guns
at people just driving by the intersection. They were at
(39:28):
like something's gonna happen. It's not good. We're all like
I don't care who you are. We're all like we're
especially in dangerous.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Yeah, yeah, we're in it.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
But I would urge folks to if you are feelings
has to get involved in the advocacy and like show
up to actions because it's only by like combining forces, and.
Speaker 6 (39:48):
Like what you were saying about protesting and talking to people,
I think the answer is doing everything to combat this.
Like I remember being a little kid and the Unification
Church was protested, and I remember being really scared in
that moment. But I think it was important, really important
for me to see like, Okay, not everyone believes in
(40:10):
this church, maybe take a second look, Like maybe this
doesn't work for the ice assholes who are there, like
right there with the guns, but maybe it gives other
people like a little bit of hesitation or a little
bit like just put something in their brain like why
are all these people.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So upset with me?
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Right? And I think you really said it while in
your article of taking space to do meaningful things in
your community that are small as well so that you
really feel connected to change.
Speaker 6 (40:41):
Well, I think protesting can even be part of that
because you're also out there showing your neighbors that you
care about them. And then there's other things you can
do like buy out your local Tamali stand or you know,
be involved in different groups who are helping patrol and
instead of getting mired in their crazy arguments and getting
lost in their stupid logic, you're like focusing your energy
(41:05):
on like creating a better life for you and your community.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, I think you said plant some seeds, give somebody
some socks, like take it to reality and just said
something simple.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And yeah, I'm just going to shout out Ktown for
All is a great organization here in LA that's been
buying out street vendors to protect them from ice.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
La is also great pization right.
Speaker 6 (41:27):
Natalon is great too. They've been in Pasadena for a
long time. They're the National Day Laborers Organizing Network. And
also right after the Eaten fires, they were on the ground,
like the day after cleaning up all the debris left
in Pasadena, so they were there doing the fires there.
Right now they have a box truck going around making
(41:49):
announcements when ice is around, they're holding vigils. They're like,
there's so I think that's the silver lining of this
moment is seeing like how many heroes we live amongst
where where it's just like all of these like grassroots
groups and people throwing in twenty dollars or stopping the
videotape and ice rate or you know, we're all doing
(42:10):
what we can.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, you mentioned the importance of protests in terms of showing.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
People that you care.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I've read this really great article and now I'm not
going to remember which publication it was, I'll have to
find it, but just talking about how you know, a
lot of us became disillusioned with the idea of protesting
because it felt like it wasn't achieving anything, and in many.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Cases that is true.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
But what it does achieve is it shows people how
other people feel. Yeah, and we can lose sight and
we can become hopeless about being capable of creating any
change when we think that everybody else is living in
a different reality and they don't feel the same way
that we do. And there's something so important about grounding
(42:50):
in reality, like this is the public sentiment on this
issue right now, and so like even when it feels
pointless showing up, can action be impactful? Just at least
in that way to be like, No, we care about immigrants,
and you're not alone if you care about it, and
we're not all giving up, like we're out here and
we're doing it, and so you can hopefully feel inspired.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
To do something too.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yeah, I mean your your take on all of this
is so important and it's just such a cool voice
to hear in both spaces. I'm yeah, pretty obsessed, to
put it mildly, Well, thank you, so you call it
too slowly backs away? Do we have any like words
(43:38):
of wisdom? Like what does real repair look like to you?
Not just exiting thinking, but rejoining civic life in a
meaningful way. That's a great question.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Thanks.
Speaker 6 (43:51):
I don't know if they have an answer. So I
became a parent in the past few years. I will say, like,
in some ways that feels insane to have a child
right now, but in other ways it feels like and
I think you can obviously do this without a kid.
It's just it's been helpful for me to realize that,
(44:12):
like I need to not be consumed by everything going on,
that I have a responsibility for this child to not
trauma dump on him, or I just have a responsibility
to give them a decent childhood and help them navigate
the world. And some part of that is going to
(44:33):
be like navigating this political moment. But I feel like
it's really makes me focus on like his community of
like little friends, and like my community that we live in,
and just doing the generative side of pushing back against
this administration, which is like creating a world that I
(44:54):
want to live in, and focusing on that, whether it's
you know, planting native flowers or buying more local or
supporting my local immigrant rights groups or whatever I'm doing,
it's like I'm trying to focus on that so I'm
not just only doom scrolling and only panicking about our
(45:15):
really really shitty leaders right now. So there's yeah, there's
a focus on like what do I want the future
to be like? And I feel like that can't just
be like, oh, I'm gonna make you know, your room
really pretty or something like. It needs to be like
more substantial than.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
That, right, community oriented, yeah, which is what cults are
so good at supplying.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
So we have to give it in healthy doses.
Speaker 6 (45:37):
Well, I feel like i've been It's funny. I was
listening to a few of your your episodes, and I
feel like, for me, cults are like just a big
abuse of families, you know, Like it's like that same
like dysfunction and abuse, but like instead it's like with
(45:58):
a little bit weirder outfits, but it's basically the same thing, right,
And so with an abusive family or abusive relationship, it's like,
you know, the person will tell you I love you,
I love you, I love you, but then they're also
like hurting you at the same time, and that happens
with cults and other dysfunctional relationships, and it's definitely, yeah,
(46:18):
not healthy at all, and so you have to figure
out what's healthy for you.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Easier said than done.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Sometimes, Yeah, I feel like a lot of that is
like working on yourself and figuring out, like what what
your own broken parts aren't trying to heal that, and
getting outside perspective from someone completely uninvolved, because we lose
perspective a lot of the time. I know, especially I
just think about relationships that have become unhealthy. It can
(46:49):
be so hard to like understand what is actually hurting
you until you tell someone else and they're like, that's
not normal, you know.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
Yeah, Yeah, And just having a lot of different trusted
sources in your life.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
We always come back to that, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (47:02):
And like having enough time to like, like whether it's
taking walks or doing yoga, not a yoga cult, but
like doing it, like doing things that like are very quiet,
so that if there are alarm bells, like you're giving
yourself the time to hear them. That's so true, because yeah,
if you don't stop, I feel like it's easier to
(47:24):
get wrapped around the axle.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Amazing.
Speaker 4 (47:29):
We're gonna start using that point in every episode from
now on.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Truly, there was the guy on the Sarah Lawrence Stock
who got away from everybody for like two minutes and
it clicked for him.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Yeah, I mean that's we hear that story over and
over again.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, And I think it's true in our political climate too,
in terms of making sure you're taking space to consider
what you're feeling, because we're activated all the time.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Because they want us to be activated. I know that
sounds really like conspiracy. Thereis, but like, I feel like
the way that these billionaires keep getting to stay in
power is because we're all like so freaked out. We're overwhelmed,
and we're overwhelmed, and they're trying to make us feel
overwhelmed so that we're more easily gullible and controlled.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Totally if you yes, totally, and also at the same
time sometimes you know, like if you do check out completely,
oh yeah, then you're avoiding and you're not. So it's
like it's just a constant balancing act. I just keep
seeing memes where it's like people basically doing the splits
like between two buildings and being like me trying to
take space to not let this take over my life,
(48:34):
and me trying to like make sure I'm actually contributing
on the other side, you know, and it's it's very hard.
Speaker 6 (48:39):
And I feel like for me, the answer changes all
the time, and I'm okay, with that, Like, I feel
like I used to work more with organizations and lately
I don't have the ability to do that in my
day to day life. So I've been doing stuff like
I wrote that article because I was like, oh, that's
something I can do on my own in the free
time I have. You go, it fluctuates over time. Yeah,
(49:02):
I feel like it fluctuates over time.
Speaker 5 (49:04):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (49:04):
One tip I have is when I feel like I
can't deal with the news for a bit, what I
try and do is read a book of nonfiction, especially
like a book of history that's like, you know, maybe
about FDR or something where you're like still learning more
about the world, but it's not like the world right now.
So something that helps give a little context, but you're
(49:25):
not getting sucked into the twenty four to seven Twitter feed.
Speaker 4 (49:29):
Yeah it's smart. I just watched the Winston Churchill doc on.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Oh was it good? It's sah okay.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I've just been watching Adam Curtis docs. I pus watched
his film No No. Incredible filmmaker. He makes these political
historical documentaries that kind of weave together these like larger
narratives about what's happened from a leftist perspective, yeah, or
anti capitalist perspective generally, but so smart and he's incorporating
(49:58):
so many different cultures and movements that are happening all
at the same time.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
Anyway, I highly recommend Adam Curtis nice.
Speaker 6 (50:04):
I read I think It's Called Say Nothing by Patrick
rad and Kief, which was about the troubles in Ireland,
and then I read a bunch of detective stories set
around the troubles in Ireland.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
These detective stories were true.
Speaker 6 (50:18):
No, those were fiction, got those were just for fun.
But I did read like a couple of nonfiction books.
I was just like getting in that era.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, no, why arranging and fascinating conversation.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
And where do people find you?
Speaker 6 (50:37):
I have a website aquinacoxs dot com and I think
there's links for what I'm up to there. Yeah cool,
Thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
That concludes our interview with Aquina Cox. I am so
glad that she joined us in person. What an amazing
first guest to have as our first episodes back with
Trust Me.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
Yeah, that was a really great first guest. So grateful
that she made the time to come in and speak with.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Us same and I'm excited to keep going with our
new home and so many more wonderful guests to come
just to recap a bit of what we talked about.
So there are organizations that if anyone in LA wants
to get involved with to combat the dehumanization and mass
deportation of people who are immigrants that is currently happening.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Check out k Town for All.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
They do great, great local work helping not only the
unhoused population but also people who are at risk of
iced deportation. Chir Law, the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights
Union Del Barrio does some really amazing stuff as well
as La Tenants Union, and there are more I'm learning
about all the time. And this is all to say
(51:47):
if you're feeling panicked like I am, one of the
things that can really help is at least taking some
small action to feel like you have some agency over
at least your little corner of the city or the world.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yes, consistent small action indeed, and indeed, thank you for
listening to an episode of Trust Me. We can't wait
to see you again next week. Make sure to rate
us five stars if you're going to rate us less
than just don't even bother it, and as always, remember
to follow your gut, watch out for red Flatt, and
never ever trust me.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted
by Me.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Holly.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kottner.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark
and Daniell Kramer.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
or on TikTok at trust Me Cult podcast.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Listen to trust Me on the i heeartradio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 1 (53:10):
M
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