Amanda Rae - The Kingston Clan and Escaping Polygamy - Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at
gmail dot com.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
Trust Me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a swat person.
I've never lied to you, I've never live.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults and
extreme belief and manipulation from two public schoolgirls who've actually
experienced it.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
I was actually partially a homeschool girl, so not entirely accurate. Today.
Our guest is Amanda Ray, host of YouTube channel by
the same name, and former member of the Kingston Clan
also known as the Order, a polygamous group in Utah.
Some of you may remember our guests Priscilla from the
same group. It's not the FLDS. Both of these ladies
were on escaping polygamy, so you might recognize them. Amanda's

(01:07):
going to tell us who the Kingstons are, how many
mothers she had in her family, and the principle of
pure Kingston blood that led to people sometimes intermarrying with relatives,
some of whom were underage girls.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
She'll tell us about how her two years of public
school helped her think critically about what the cults said
about outsiders and people of color versus the reality that
they were just normal people, how children as young as
nine are sent to work after school, and why the
day she left began with the physical altercation with a
grown man and the group.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Oh, I feel like we barely scratched the surface. There's
so much. There's so much, but it's it's good. It's good.
We'll have her back on.

Speaker 5 (01:42):
She she really needs to come back on.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
She's wonderful and what a treasure chest full of stories
that are unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Really also great at makeup, just like Priscilla. What is
it with these cad and.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Girls like the they're so good at makeup?

Speaker 5 (02:00):
Make up? Teach me.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I've been doing the same makeup for literally twenty years,
and I just get worse than a cat I every
day of my life, Like it's like reverse learning.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, so wonderful at makeup, and just a wonderful person
with a really wild story.

Speaker 5 (02:23):
So love this interview.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, before we get into the interview, Megan, what's your
culties thing this week?

Speaker 6 (02:28):
I'm sorry she's moving her cat, guys, So, I mean,
I'm sure you're hearing a lot about the Ruby Frankel
documentaries that are being released about the Mormon blog influencer,
the YouTube woman who's just her abuse is like off
the scale, and I've been looking into it and reading it,

(02:50):
and it's it's worse than you thought, Like because I'd
seen footage of the little boy who finally like broke
free from the other woman Jodie's home, and he's completely starved,
like wrapped, his wounds are all wrapped in tape, and
you're like, oh my gosh, this is insane. But then

(03:13):
you keep watching and it gets worse and wre source
and crazier and crazier. So I suggest people take a
look into that just to see a tadbit of how things.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Can get really out of control. And then I was
also just thinking about how Amanda's story kind of parallels
some of my own and weird ways. Definitely was not
living in a family that was like in breeding itself
or anything. But I was really lucky that the two
by twos, the group that I grew up and allowed

(03:45):
us to go to public school and allowed us to
go to go to school. And the whole point of
it was like, you have to be this verse in
the Bible, in the world, but not of the world.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
So Amish people were wrong.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Because they were wearing these outfits and being so pure,
but they weren't in the world. They were hiding in
a little farm. So you needed to look like that
and act like that, and then you needed to get
on the bus and go to public school and show
everybody what Jesus liked.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
But it wasn't to convert people.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
It was just if you it was a dream that
people would say, you're so different, what is it about
you that's making me feel this urge of asking you?

Speaker 5 (04:38):
And but that's not how it went.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
People would be like, flesh yourself down the toilet, you
stupid bitch, Like you're a weirdout. So yeah, I don't
know if for the second week in a row, I've
just given two cultius things, but those are just what's
been weighing on my heart this week. As the two
by twos would say.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
As many culty things as you want, endless goldy.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
But yeah, there are like multiple Ruby Frankel and this
YouTube family blogger stuff coming out right now that everybody's
talking about. And I can only assume that we're going
to see a bazillion more families, religious or not, coming
out about how abusive their YouTube family.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
So yeah, anyway, that's what's been laid on my heart
this week. As the two by twos would say, what
about you, Lola, what's the cultiest thing that happened to
you this week?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Okay, I swear I will not do this every week,
but because we would, this would get very exhausting every week.
But I do want to mention some things that are
happening in the administration because speaking a cult eat, I mean,
oh yeah, so okay, so what oc cults do? They
control information, They silence dissent, They shrink the world so

(05:54):
that only they are the ones with access to the
correct information. Politically speaking, this would look like silencing people
who are critical of them. It would look like eliminating
dissenting thought in various forms. We talked about that in
our Cultural Revolution episode how intellectuals were targeted and teachers

(06:16):
were targeted, and that kind of thing that's very, very
common and fascist regimes, which I know is a buzzword,
but just stay with me here. So I'm just gonna
go down a little list here of some things because
it's pretty overwhelming, and I'm okay. The White House banned
the Associated Press indefinitely. They took control of what press
is and is not allowed in the daily presidential press pool,

(06:37):
which is breaking precedent of many years. One of the
reasons for the White House Correspondences Association to be in
charge of those decisions is because we are supposed to
have a free press, not just a mouthpiece for whoever's
in charge. When the president is in charge of the
press pool, then they can make sure that there aren't
people there asking them questions, challenging what they're doing. Right,

(06:57):
the Trump administration has decided that DEI is this broad
evil to be rooted out. They're calling woke ideology the
pressing issue of our nation, not healthcare, not protecting our people,
not keeping billionaires out of politics. It's wokeness, guys. It's
the biggest issue of our time. And because they have
decided to target woke ideology, which we could talk about

(07:19):
the reasons for why that is. But my theory is power.
But this specter of DEI as an evil to be
rooted out has now become the focus. And one of
the ways it's become a focus is in science. So
they have banned a whole long list of words or
flagged them for review because they could be too woke
in research papers. Those words include female, black, LGBTQ, climate, ethnicity, gender,

(07:45):
historically women, biases, trauma, confirmation, bias, and so many more.
And I've spoken to several actual scientists about this, one
of whom his research paper was pulled because it referred
to it was studying transgender mental health. I've also spoken
to neuroscientists who have absolutely nothing to do with absolutely

(08:06):
anything related to any of these topics, and research like
as a whole is just basically like shrinking and closing off,
and everyone's panicking and things are getting closed. And that's
partially for a couple of different reasons. But one of
the reasons is no one's research is able to get
through because it's virtually impossible to have healthcare research where
you don't use words like bias or gender because the

(08:28):
whole purpose of science is to have to make sure
that there isn't bias, right, that's the whole point of science. Obviously,
studying and learning about a group that exists, whether you're
interested in learning about that group or not, is not indoctrination.
But purging information because it doesn't align with how you
see the world is in doctrination that is closing off

(08:48):
the access to education and different information. It's ironic to
be claiming to be fighting in doctrination and ideology when
what you're actually doing is removing science, information, education ideas
that differ from yours. And finally, Trump has been calling
pro Palestine protests illegal. Protests are quite explicitly legal. They

(09:10):
are protected by the First Amendment. I'm happy to read
that language, but we don't need to do that here.
Peaceful protesting is legal in this country. It's a First
Amendment right now. A Palestinian graduate of Columbia University who
lives here legally has green cart and has been charge
of no crimes, was taken from his home by ICE
agents on a State Department order, and the agents hung

(09:31):
up on his lawyer. They took him anyway. Whatever you
think about the protests, This is extremely dangerous. It's an
extremely dangerous president. It is silencing politically different ideas without
actually there being a crime. You cannot just take people
because you don't like what they're saying. You just can't
do that. Not legally, you cannot do that.

Speaker 5 (09:51):
You can in North Korea?

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Right, do we want to live in North Korea?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Exactly? Do we? So?

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Does punishing press want saying what you want them to say?
Removing research that talks about topics you don't like, broadly
banning words that aren't in line with your particular ideology,
and arresting protesters who have not actually committed a crime
and threatening to arrest many more sound like it's in
line with not a cult or democracy, Because I don't know,
it sounds like something a cult government would do te me.

(10:20):
So that's that's my rant.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, I'm very curious to see where all of this
will I mean curious is the wrong word.

Speaker 5 (10:29):
I'm very terrified to.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
See where all of this is going to go.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
And here's my obligatory for anyone who might be like, not,
you know, politically aligned with me, like of course, the
left has had culty moments, and culturally there's been very
culty elements happening here, and I'm not going to deny
that for a second. But it's cultural cultiness is very
different from federal government actually controlling your life cultiness. These
are two very different things, and they're both a problem,

(10:56):
but one is much more of a problem. That's my point.

Speaker 5 (10:59):
Yeah's much more culty.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, Well, to be determined out as how bad it
will get.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Indeed, should we talk to Amanda Now, let's do it.
Welcome Amanda Ray to trust me finally, Yay, thank you
so much for being here. I've known you for years

(11:28):
and we have not done this before, which is crazy.
So can you for our listeners who do not know
who the Kingston Clan is, can you give just like
a brief overview of what this group is that you
were in.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yes, so I was born in it, but obviously like
in the later years because it was in the nineties
when I was born. It was actually started though in
nineteen thirty five, so it's been around for a while.
But the short version of what the Order is is
there kind of an offshoot of you know, the original
person who started the Order was LDS and it's when

(12:02):
the Utah was trying to become a state, so they
had to like outlaw polygamy and so kind of a
lot of a lot of offshoots came around at this time,
like FLDS, AUB the LeBaron Group, right, so, and the
Kingston's was one of them, and it originally wasn't supposed
to be a religion, but it kind of evolved into
a you know, God's kingdom on earth. And the main

(12:28):
core principles of the teachings are consecration, which is give
your all to the Lord. So they signed ten percent
forms inventory forms that means that everything they owned could
potentially be given up right. And of course the ten
percent forms means that because the banks are in the
order like everyone puts their money in a in the
order bank, the ten percent is automatically taken out of everything.

(12:48):
Oh wow, its banks accounts too. We're also my gosh,
yeah gosh. So there's that piece. And then I think,
obviously the most like thing that makes people want to
watch the Kingston Clan, I feel like is the incest
is one of the biggest ones where like wait a minute,
because you'll hear like FLDS, maybe Mary's cousins, you'll hear

(13:08):
that a lot, but in the order the leader is
marrying his half sisters and nieces. So wow, it's very big,
including my dad. His third wife is his half sister,
so my mom was the second. Yeah, I know. I
always have the joke of like, so he married three wives.
The first wife is my mom's sister, and the third
wife is his half sister.

Speaker 5 (13:28):
Oh my god, how many people are in this group?

Speaker 3 (13:31):
Like?

Speaker 5 (13:31):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Why is there a shortage of people? Is that why
we're intermarrying.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
I think that's why it is common that you'll see
in all polygamous groups in Utah, there's gonna be some
family marrying, cousin marrying because one like they no one
really wants, especially a woman. Is a woman really going
to join this? Probably not right, So there is. And
then you'll see a lot of men unmarried in their

(13:57):
like thirties and forties because if they're not kingston enough,
they're not going to be like awarded a wife, right,
So yeah, it's hard to convert. And also they're not
they're not like LDS where the LDS have the missionaries
trying to convert people. They kind of at least what
I was taught was that we were kind of chosen
in heaven. It was like a pre chosen decision that
we got to be born on the kingdom in the

(14:19):
Kingdom on Earth. Right. So, but as a woman's duty
in the order in the Kingdom on Earth is like
you're prepped from I remember in like as early as
first grade, they're telling us to pray for our direction
of the person that we're supposed to be married to,
like our number one choice. So we're all like praying
and hoping that like if you're if you had best friends,

(14:39):
and it's so weird. A lot of us have memories
of this. If you have best friends, you're like praying
that heavenly Father will let you marry your best friend's
husbands so you'll be best friends forever.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Oh, I mean I hear that slumber party, like little
Nugget in there where I would do the exact same thing. Yeah,
like let's get married to the same guy be together forever.

Speaker 5 (15:03):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
So first grade already like praying for that man.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
Right, And of course once you go through puberty you
think of it a little different, right, You're like, wait
a minute, get away from my man.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Wait, So you said there'd be men
who'd be unmarried, but it would be because these other
men were like taking all the women, so like was
it punishment to not bestow them a wife?

Speaker 3 (15:27):
To be honest, I think that this is just like
from what I've seen and from what I've heard from
older generation members who have left, it seems as though
because they teach the whole are our bloodline is pure
and directly descended of Christ, like we are we are
descendants of Jesus Christ. So it feels like they're kind

(15:47):
of almost like a cult within a cult and racist
against their own members, Like if you're not as pure
blood Kingston as us, then you shouldn't be awarded a wife.
And you would always see the marrying up the bloodline,
like because I'm technically Kingston, I was going to have
to marry a more Kingston man.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
What would that look like? What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (16:08):
So he they actually had me going out with this guy, Like, uh,
it's this process of coming forward. So he has to
you know, get direction from God or whatever, and then
go to his parents and then get approval, and then
go to my parents get approval and then they can
come forward, which means they're allowed to like kind of
like take you on a day, but you're not allowed
to kiss, hold hands, any of that stuff, and they

(16:30):
just kind of present themselves as a choice for marriage
for you. But in my case, I really felt like
I was just being forced to be with this guy
because I had vocalized that I didn't want to be,
you know, married to him, especially because his parents, so
he was so closely related to me because his mom
is my dad's full sister and his dad was my
dad's half sister.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
So his parents, his mom would say it again, his.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
Mom and my dad were full siblings, okay, and then
his dad and my dad were half siblings, so that
was yeah, his mom and dad are half siblings with
the same dad, different moms.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
So he's cousin.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, so my kids would definitely have like, oh my god,
I thought, like deformities for sure.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
God, yeah, were there a lot of deformities there.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
So from what I saw, like, I feel like the
physical stuff was less than you would think. Like I
remember being a TA in the private school of the
church and I saw a girl with who was born
with a missing ear. There were little things like that,
but they did start to do blood testing to see
who was compatible with who. So I think over the

(17:40):
years of that, you it was mostly just internal issues.
There wasn't as many physical issues. Do you think if
you're if you're in breeding that much, you're going to
see a lot of physical issues, which I think they
did when Ortel was in leadership. So Ortel was before Paul.
He's are my grandpa, Paul's dad, and he his first
wife was the first case of incest that we know of.

(18:01):
His first wife was his niece, and he could never
They could never have babies to full term, and he
ended up marrying like three of her sisters and only
one of them could actually have kids. But they had
a lot of issues. So I think that's when the
blood testing was born, because they're like, wait, why why
can't we have because the orders, like their numbers grow
just because they're having so many babies so fast, like

(18:23):
the fate, and you get married and you have a
baby every year until you can't anymore, you know, right.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
I love that his response to not being able to
have a baby with his niece was to try multiple
other nieces and think that that would solve the problem.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
Good thinking, right, so so stupid, And I think that
his logic was literally, like my bloodline really is so great.
So I'm supposed to marry a bunch of my own
family because we're we need to keep this bloodline pure.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Oh it's so creepy, right, So so why is this
is the weirdest question. Why is your bloodline not pure?

Speaker 3 (18:56):
My woodman?

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Yeah, Like why did you need to be more Kings? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Well no, that's what's weird is you'll see all of
the Kingston's marrying more Kingston, Like you'll never see a woman,
like rarely ever would you see a woman marrying down
the bloodline. And usually it was if she fought and
was like going to lead to the order, and then
they were like okay, we'll go okay because they don't
want to lose a woman because that's that's technically to them.
One woman is like nine babies that they could have

(19:22):
had plus.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
But so your dad is like more of an indirect
descendant of the leadership, Like what is it?

Speaker 3 (19:28):
So yeah, he's half half brothers to the leader, but
so his dad is the leader before, so he is Kingston.
That's pure okay, because the bad that I was like
supposed to be with he was like my age, like yeah,
probably a year older than me. So marrying up, I
guess just means like like the Kingston How do I
explain this? The Kingston girls are preserved and saved for

(19:50):
the Kingston boys, the higher up Kingston's, so that they
can keep that bloodline pure, because it's gonna taint and
muddy up the blood to give a Kingston girl to
a non Kingston man. It's kind of like royal bloodline,
have you you know.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
How Oh you're just you're just saying to marry a
Kingston and not a non Kingston.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Well, but the Kingston boy that I was supposed to
doing was more Kingston. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Because because your dad was a half brother to a
Kingston and this boy was like full Kingston.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Because because both parents were Kingston.

Speaker 5 (20:24):
Okay, got it?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Okay, took us a minute, Wow.

Speaker 5 (20:32):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
So they were like, here's a full Kingston.

Speaker 5 (20:36):
You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Here.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
He is double Kingston for you. Okay.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, So and everyone else is like a mud blood.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah, it's literally what it feels that way, especially because
you'll see where if there is a man who so
there's a lot of families where if you watch the
show Skating Pulling Me, surely she was on there and
she is technically handsome. So the handsome girls would get married,
but the Hanson boys had a really hard time getting married.
So Hanson was like mudblood right because they did not

(21:06):
have Kingston in their bloodline. So the girls would they
want the girls, but get the boys away from their women.

Speaker 5 (21:12):
I think I remember that on that show.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
They like sent them like kind of ostracized them to
a point where a lot of them would be leaving.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
It's interesting to see when you have the hands and
men's and the handsOn men are like around the women, right,
the Kingston women, and then all of a sudden, like
the leader will have like a direction from the Lord
and say, hey, Hanson man, we actually have a job
for you out in Idaho in the middle of nowhere,
and you're gonna get paid like ten dollars an hour.

(21:39):
It's a great opportunity push them over there to get
them away from the Kingston women, so they would Actually,
you'd see this happen a lot where even like the
potato farm in Idaho, it's it's raud by the Browns,
which are less Kingston. So they would be pushing them
out to the mine and the farms and the you
know in the potato farmer in Idaho because they didn't
want them tainting up the kings and bloodline. But they

(22:00):
would they would frame it as like this is a
wonderful opportunity from the Lord, and they of course, and
then you're doing this right. They want to be pleasing
the Lord so that they can be awarded the wife.
But in a way, it's it's so that they can't
get the wife.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
So can you talk to us a little bit about
your childhood and what just day to day life was
like for a little girl in the Kingston Clan or
the Order what did you guys call it?

Speaker 3 (22:32):
I mean, we called it the order. We ordered. We
called ourselves order members.

Speaker 5 (22:36):
Okay, so that was like.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
Our term Kingston Clan was kind of coined from the
outside outsiders. Okay, okay, yeah, but yeah, so we call
our self Order members. And as I said, in like
first grade, we were praying about who we're gonna get
direction on for our number one choice. My mom was
or is the second of three wives. But as a
as a young kid, I didn't know who my dad

(22:58):
was because they lied to me about it. Because my
mom was the second wife. We were like the secret family, right,
So I would see my dad with the first wife,
which is my mom's older sister, and I would see
all of their kids calling him dad, and so I
was like, who's my dad? Then I don't understand, and
then I asked him. I remember asking him if he

(23:21):
was my dad and he said no, and so I'm like, well,
the who the hell is my dad?

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (23:27):
But he would come over to our house still like
a dad would, but we were not allowed to call
him dad, who called him by his first name.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
This isn't like the FLDS where you have all these
families living together in these like enormous houses, right, families
are living in separate homes. And was that on purpose
or just because you lived in Salt Lake and it
would be impossible to get a five story home in
Salt Lake?

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Like the order has been. From what I have seen,
they try really hard to be integrated into society and
kind of look like they are normal, which I've done
a pretty good job of doing that. Like they blend
in pretty well with society. And I think it's for
money gained, for opportunities for businesses, right, And they their

(24:08):
location is technically is it technically Salt Lake? It's like
rudyed road like bordering Salt Lake West Valley area. Okay,
so they were very like when the raids were happening
and people were actually getting prosecuted for living polygamy. I
think that they just took the measures to be very
very careful and so they had you know, I mean,
I think there's like one family that all lives in

(24:30):
one home in the order, but it's very rare that
you'll see that. And I think that it's one to
protect themselves, right, Like because my mom she's on food
stemps shell. A lot of these women get a state
help and so if the state's coming in, you have
to get looked at. Your home has to be looked
at to see if you can qualify, see what the

(24:51):
state of the home is in. So I remember the
lady coming and checking our home, which was crazy. My
mom had pictures of my dad everywhere. But like she
claimed that, they claimed that they don't know who the
father is so that they can get these benefits. But
just imagine if they had homes full of kids and
a bunch of wives, that would look a little suspicious,
right right, right, So I think part of it is
that they want to kind of come off as a

(25:13):
single family home. But then I also think that it
benefits the leader to have all of these homes because
they're all going to be in the order's name. No
one leaves the home, and a lot of times no
one even gets to have the home on their name
under their name. Wow, so it's beneficial for them. But yeah,
you'll see. You'll see like a single mom with a

(25:34):
bunch of kids at the home, and then the dad
would rotate. So like my dad, he had three wives,
so we would see him every third night, right unless
it was my mom's birthday, or there was some type
of you know party, going on a vacation, or the
other wives were mad at him and told them to
get out of their house.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Happened a lot. How many siblings do you have, like
full siblings?

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, my mom had ten kids, so I have five
brothers and forces I'm the second oldest. And then my
dad had I think he has thirty two kids right
now or thirty three.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
How many of them do you have a relationship with.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
My closest is the obviously, like the ones that left.
So I have my older sister who left around the
same time as me. She was married in the group
and then kind of got pushed out because she didn't
want to look at me, and there was a long
story with her, but we left it the same year,
and then my younger sister left on the show Rachel
and then my younger brother also left on the show

(26:29):
at school. And then actually just last year, we had
my younger brother, Jake. He's ten years younger than me,
but he came out just last year. So those the
five of us, we've been really bonding over the trauma.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, and you had.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Briscilla on here, right, Yeah. Yeah, she probably mentioned that
when you leave, they really do cut you off. And
because I was one of the first to leave in
my family, like the I wasn't allowed home for Christmas,
it wasn't home for Thanksgiving. It was like I was
I was dead to the family. My eighteenth birthday came
around the corner after I left, and I thought that

(27:07):
my mom was going to bring my siblings, and she
showed up alone with a gift. The gift was a
photo album of all of my siblings and she told
me that you basically won't ever see them again unless
you come back any order.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
I was like, literally ride, Yeah, what does that feel
like to be eighteen years old and alone like that.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
It was hard, especially when your whole life you were
surrounded by the noise of your siblings. Right. It's such
a eerie, weird feeling to go from always having someone
around you, always having noise, always hearing a baby crying
or like laughing, to being alone in an apartment and
there's like silence. Now I love silence, but at the time,

(27:53):
it was like I needed to turn like a TV
on or something anxiety to be alone and in silence.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Oh my gosh, Yeah, that seems crazy. So you went
to public school like for a couple of years, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
You liked it. I went to it was a junior
high for seventh I think it was seventh and eighth,
and then we moved. And it was because at the time,
so I had been going to the Orders private school,
which is ends iin learning center, but they only had
that up to grade five or five or six, and
then they were working on the junior high in high school.

(28:30):
So a lot of kids would just do homeschool at
this point, and which is what they put me in.
They put me in home school at fifth grade, and
I was basically teaching myself, like there was no teacher.
My mom would just be like, hey, go into the
basement and learn, and I'm like, okay, I don't know
how to do that. So oh my god. Literally like
it was K twelve, fifth and sixth grade, which I understand,

(28:51):
like if the parents are involved, K twelve is a
good program. But if the parents are just throwing the
kids downstairs, like how come you're not learning the right,
it's not going to be Yeah. Then eventually my mom
was like, okay, well my kids need to go to
school because they're not learning. So we went to junior
high school. It was literally all the way on the
other side of time. It took an hour to get there,

(29:12):
and we would take the UTA bus, me and my
older sister, and then we had cousins next door that
would take like help us get there. They were cousins
on the outside, but like it was weird. They their
grandpa left polygamy and they almost were members of the Order,
and I think the Order was still trying to get
them to join, but they were so it was like
okay to be friends with them anyway, So we went

(29:32):
all the way to school together with them an hour
every single day and I'm so grateful for that experience
because it gave me such a different perspective. Like, but
up until this point, the order was really all I knew.
We are the true Kingdom of God upon the earth,
and everybody else's sinners, right, And then I go and
at this point too, like I was taught the story

(29:53):
of you know, why only white people will be in heaven,
which I don't know for sure.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
That story I don't remember, but did you know, I
don't think.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
So, tell me this sounds familiar then, Okay, So we
were taught that there was a great war in heaven
and Jesus and Lucifer were fighting basically, and Lucifer's was
saying that, like, we just need to force everyone to
do the right thing and then they'll all go to heaven.
And then Jesus was saying, no, we need to give freedom,
and so us great white people chose Jesus's side. The

(30:26):
demons of Hell chose Satan's side, and they were never born.
And then there were a bunch of fence sitters who
couldn't choose the side to be on, and those were
people who were not white. And there, yeah, the punishment
was you get to be born on earth, but you
will never go to heaven. You're gonna go straight to hell.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
Afterwards, the devil sounds so much nicer and nice.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Welcoming everyone into his right.

Speaker 5 (30:51):
The devil was like, let's fix this.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
So did you did you know any black or brown people?

Speaker 3 (30:58):
So? Yeah, And this is where my brain starts to
shift because one of my first friends in junior high
was a black girl and she was so nice to me.
She was the only one who came up and talked
to me, and so I started to, like my brain
gears start going right, I'm like, wait a minute. So
I go home and I tell my dad. I'm like,

(31:19):
so are we sure on this? Like all black people
don't get to go to heavens. I brought the girl
home like I really liked her, and I brought her
home as like telling my mom, Hey, I'm gonna bring
a friend home. Is that okay? And my mom was
more you won't see this often in the order by
the way outsiders coming to homes. But my mom was
born on the outside and kind of like cohurst to joint,

(31:40):
so she wanted me to be able to have friends.
So I brought this girl home, and I think my
mom didn't know that she was going to be a
black girl, so she lets her come home and then
she's like, oh, and then my dad happened to be
there that day, and he also was like I realized
as soon as he saw her that I had done something.

Speaker 5 (31:56):
Wrong, right, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Yeah, but he was good to her face, and as
soon as she left, he made sure to let me know, like,
why not only did you bring an outsider to the home,
but you decided to bring I don't remember if he's
used the N word or not. He was very fluid
with He would definitely use the nword, and that was
a very They still are very They use the nword
in the Jesus this day. Yeah, like it's nothing, but yeah,

(32:23):
that made me so sad. I don't remember if it
was like if I prayed for her, but it was
like internal like turmoil because I'm like, why does she
not get to go to heaven? But some of these
bullies in the order get to I have to see
them in heaven, you.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Know, right? Right? Did that start planting some seeds for
you about how this might not be the religion for you?

Speaker 3 (32:46):
Yeah? Well, I think at this point I was like, well,
I have to be in the order, because that's how
I get into heaven. But it didn't. It was starting
to make me lose kind of like respect for God
in a weird way, like why does God not because
if the answer is no, this is how it is
and this is God's you know, plan. It made me
start to question God in a way like, right, maybe

(33:08):
your plans a little flawed.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
Right, right, maybe you're kind of mean.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
So many people and groups like this do not get
the opportunity to go to public school and be face
to face with outsiders and people who don't look like them.
So I think it's like incredible that you, yeah, got
to have that experience and like see directly the difference
between the narrative and the reality of how people are.

Speaker 6 (33:32):
Right.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
I definitely credit a lot of my free thinking because
for a while I was like, why me and a
lot of people did be like you were just like
special enough to Now I'm like, no, we were all
born into it, and I was given different opportunities they
And just because this other person stayed doesn't mean that
they weren't smart. It's just that they weren't given those
opportunities to critical think.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, yeah, if you're completely isolated from the outside world
and like you know nothing else, Like if you don't
have the information, then it's going to be a lot
harder to make some of those freethinking choices exactly.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
And I even had like, yeah, I've gotten offended a
couple times when there was there's been some comments on
my tiktoks recently They're like, oh, I could never survive
in the order I asked too many questions and like shut,
I wouldn't. Yeah, you wouldn't if you were born in
there because you sloped down and you would be literally abused.
So so you don't know what you're saying right now.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
When your entire life is being controlled, Like yeah, people
just don't. They just don't understand if they've.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
There's a lot of similarities between what you're saying and
how I grew up and this little religion called the
two by twos and where it's kind of like we're
not really getting more members, we're just like breeding them
into existence because who the fuck would join this?

Speaker 4 (34:48):
But yeah, I guess I'm just wondering, was there a
dress code?

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Did you fit in at public school or did you
look kind of like my experience where I looked like
American girl doll going to a nineties school.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, very very normal, right, blending in, and that's what
they wanted. That's what we did. Have the strictness of, like,
you know, modesty obviously, and then they were big on
not piercing your ears in my generation. Yeah, but I
did it myself. I took pins and I went into
the bathroom and I put the pins in my ears

(35:22):
and I came out like these are my ears.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Okay, I also is not allowed to pierce my ears.
But I was a rebellious thirteen year old, and by rebellious,
I mean I listened to punk music. But what I
never did any drugs or alcohol. But I did have
my friend pierce my belly button with a safety pin.
Oh my, and then someone at church saw it and

(35:44):
told my dad and I only had a belly button
piercing for one week and I still have a scar
because it was it was also really poorly placed and
really terrible.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Painful because it's that's like more skin too.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Than Yeah, it didn't I feel good, And they like
messed it up the first time, so they had to
do it again. But I was so intent on being
you know this was like my one way to rebel anyway,
fucked that bitch who told my dad, Yeah, fuck you bitch, anyway,
that's my aside, keep going.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
No, that's very similar of like I wanted to feel
like I had some form of control of my life.
So I was like, I'm just gonna do it anyways
and force those pins through my ears, which was like
so painful.

Speaker 5 (36:27):
But didn't you like get in trouble.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
I mean, if I would have pierced my ears, my
parents would have like sent me away, right.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
And I think at this point, like I was seventeen
by by this point, I think, yees, seventeen, And by
this time, my dad had been getting me ready to
basically be groomed to be married. So my mom saw
my safety pins in my ears and she was like
I remember, She's like, you're gonna have to talk to
your dad about that. And I was nervous, but I

(36:55):
went to I can't remember whose wedding it was, but
it was this reception and it was in the huge
which like it was like the cement building looked like
a warehouse, and I was dancing with my dad and
I was really nervous because I had to ask him
if I could keep my ears basically, and I had
my earings in and I was like, can I keep
my ears pierced? And I was shocked that he said yes.
And I think it's a mixture of his mom had
pierced tears, and he was like, very fond of his mother.

(37:18):
But also he was getting ready to basically push me
to marry my cousin, so he was trying to be
nicer at this.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Time, buttering you up, yeah, right, And so I was like.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Oh, okay, So I got to keep my ears pierced,
but I still got like shamed for it and reprimanded
because I worked at the school and if I wore earrings,
even to a dance, if the principal of the school,
which was the leader's brother, if he saw me wearing
earrings or be saw me wearing clothing that he'd disapproved of,
he would take me into his office and be like, look,

(37:46):
you're an example to these children. Do you really think
that you should be wearing earrings? Do you really think
you should be wearing this jewelry or this this immodest clothing?
Jeans was one of them. He's like, jeans is immodest?

Speaker 5 (37:59):
Jeans? I couldn't wear jeans, Yeah, couldn't.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
This is the idea that I'm being immodest is funny,
because why, you know.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
The jeans were like the devil's clothing.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
Yeah, what's the reasoning?

Speaker 1 (38:12):
You just weren't allowed to Women weren't allowed to wear
pants in general.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
And then jeans were so flattering and cool. And I
remember my first pair. We went. I went to gad Zouits.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Oh I guys loved god sous. It was so cool.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
I got a pair of like Jinka bootleg flared Oh
my god, the dream like almost skater pants with like
a like a girl doing karate on the butt.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
And I was like, this is the dopest thing that's
ever happened to me.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
And I would roll them up in my backpack and
change to them every day at school.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
And because you had to leave your house in the
clothing and go change later.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, I relate to what you're saying.
And that's really wild that your dad would be like, yeah,
I keep your ear paircing because you're gonna marry your cousin.
Like what a what a crazy situation to be put out?

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, oh my god, I want to hear a little
bit about the practice of children working, because I know
you've talked about this, Oh for sure.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
I think every Order member has a memory of working
at a very young age. And I remember the enziin
Learning center school bus that would pick us up from
the order private school would drop the kids off a
lot of us to different business locations so that we
could go to work. So you get picked up from
school dropped off at work.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Wait from what age?

Speaker 3 (39:43):
I can't tell you my earliest earliest memory, but I
know that it was at least in one of my memories,
probably second grade, second or third grade.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
That yeah, we're like any of the most Kingstony people
spared like if you were full king stend, full full, full,
full fall, were you not required to work as much?

Speaker 3 (40:05):
To be honest, I feel like the more Kingston ones
still they still had to work, but they would be
given first access to the better positions. And then I
do remember because I became good friends with one of
so the leader and his brothers. They those kids. So
when I became good friends with some of those daughters,

(40:27):
I would find out that they had way more money
in their bank accounts too. Like one of my friends
she was like, yeah, I was saving up and I
got had thirty grand. I was like, wait, wait, wait,
my account never went past two thousand ever, and I
had been working. There was times where I didn't even
have access to the money, So why would my account
never go over two thousand, but you're over here having
thirty grand? And so I started putting two and two

(40:50):
together because I was like, I'm noticing a pattern that
it's always the leader's kids or the leader's brothers or
sister's kids.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Okay, so they ran the bank and they didn't really
tell you. There wasn't like a set rate for how
much money you were making. They would just kind of
like pay whatever.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
They were always just so sketchy about the pay, Like
you would just start working and then you would hope
that you're getting paid. But then there were times where
someone would go like three months without getting paid and
then they'd be like, hey, what, I'm noticing that there's
literally not even been one one. Because you'd get your
statement on Sundays at church, they would pass them out
and then it would show like the money that supposedly

(41:30):
went into your account, and then what your surplus is
and whatever you had to like minus subtract it was.
They made it so confusing so that you would never
know exactly how much money you had. But I remember
this girl she was like telling them, Hey, I haven't
gone any surplus on my statements for three months, and
they told her, oh, yeah, well when you work in
this portion of the school, then you actually don't get paid.

(41:52):
Did you not know that? And then they basically were like,
well take it as like you were working for the lord.
And then if you complain for working for free for
the lord, now you're a bad guy, you know.

Speaker 5 (42:05):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
And parents didn't mind their children like being forced to
do child labor. I mean, I know it was a
part of the culture, but like, was there any pushback?

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yeah, you would think there would be like riots, right,
But I think that it just was such a normal
thing and that it became to be honest. I think
for my mom personally, my mom had ten kids, so
I think for her she was like, yeah, go to work.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Like totally get out of the house.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, she's like, you're a doctor, you're a scientist.

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Everybody falls dark.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, totally damn.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
But yeah, there was not really I didn't see any pushback,
and I mostly saw pushing for it, and so that
was just the culture that we lived in.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Were other kids as getting as much of an education
as you were, because it sounded like your mom actually
cared if you guys were learning, because when you weren't,
she sent you to public school. Like what was the
education like for everybody else?

Speaker 3 (43:05):
I think that, Yeah, I was lucky enough to have
a mom that cared more than the average mom, and
she even allowed she pushed for my sisters to go
to college, and even when my dad didn't want them
to go to college, my mom allowed my sister to
go kind of behind his back, and so she was
trying the best she knew to set us up to

(43:26):
not fail. But so on average, though, it's a lot
harder for the girls to get access to school because
they are I mean I saw my own friends like
having to drop out of high school to go get
married and start their family. So they would do this
thing called pen foster. It was a very popular way

(43:47):
that the Order members would get their high school degrees.
I mean I got mine at fifteen, graduated pen Foster,
and really it was just everyone cheating through it, or
like the teacher would they would put us on a
room and we would try to learn together. And then
we would try to ask the teacher if we didn't know,

(44:07):
but the teacher also didn't know. So it's like kind
of like pushing us to have to cheat or to
figure out, you know, either to learn or cheat. But
a lot of them opted to cheating just to get
their degree, their high school diploma. But yeah, so on average,
I feel like the women were less educated. You did

(44:28):
see randomly, there were some if they were in like
the higher ups families, if they had a position that
they were wanting them to go for, like a teacher
or something, then they would allow them to go out.
You would see a lot more men going to college definitely,
because they could trust the men. But I was I
thought to go to college and they were like, absolutely not.
And I think it's because my dad would say things like,

(44:50):
you know, ask your husband if it's okay for you
to go to college. Ask your husband if it's okay
for you to you know, when you're older and you
have a husband, you can ask him if you can
wear that like to become like, once I'm done taking
care of you, then I'm going to pass you off
to your husband and then he can be your parent.
So it's super weird. But the reason they didn't have
me go to college is because I was already breaking

(45:11):
order standards. I was already like running around with boyfriends
and like going out with men that were not Kingston.
So they were like worried that I was definitely going
to go like dating outsider. They were like, let's keep
her locked up in this cage as possible so that
she can't, you know, escape, Basically to.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
What extent did you believe in the religion itself? Like
it sounds like you kind of had a little bit
of a rebellious streak and wanted to do your own,
like be a little bit independent, But did you still
really believe in the religion.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
I think every single member that's born there is like
a die hard for the order. But at some point
for me, I think it was fifteen, Yeah, I was
fifteen years old. I ran away. So I had been
running away a lot, but I really liked this boy
who was not Kingston, and my dad fought out told me.
He was like, I don't know who you're supposed to marry,

(46:06):
but I know it's not him, and so I was
like what, So I ran away with him. I was
so like conflicted because I was like, I don't want
to live polygamy. And I also I cannot imagine having
daughters and teaching these daughters too that they're also going
to have the same fate that I'm so like depressed about.

Speaker 5 (46:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
I remember praying. I prayed so hard to get the answers,
and I remember crying. In this one time that I
ran away, I was like crying. I had my little
quad Bible and I was reading and crying, and I
just came to the I had a weird experience that
to this day I'm like, was it was it like schizophrenia?
I don't know, but it basically was like a comforting

(46:50):
experience with my Bible where I was like, Okay, I'm
gonna leave. I'm going to get out of the order.
I don't know how, but I'm going to do it.
And it was the mixture of I didn't want to
fligt me, I didn't want to have to force my
daughters into a lifestyle that I don't even appreciate. And
then around this time too, I had a friend who

(47:12):
asked me if I heard about the whole this is
what he said. He said, did you know that Daniel
beat Mary Anne? I don't know if you have heard
these names or anything, but it became public. What he
was talking about was it was public news that so
my cousin Mary Anne, who's Daniel's daughter. And if you
watch the show Escaping Pluing Me, Daniel is the dad

(47:33):
of Jessica, Andrea Chanelle Colleen. Like, he has two hundred
over two hundred and sixty children. Sorry, one hundred and sixty. Yeah,
one hundred and sixty children.

Speaker 5 (47:42):
But what makes it better? Just kidding a little better?

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Wives in like one hundred and sixty something.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
But one of those kids was named mary Anne, and
she was a teenager, like I think it was fifteen
at the time, and even looked all of this information up.
They forced her to marry her uncle David o' kinston,
and she's like fifteen. She was actively against it. She
begged her mom to get her out of the situation,
and because she was defiant, then Daniel took her to

(48:11):
one of the order Uh ranches, it was the Washaki ranch,
and he beat her up to the point where like
she had broken bones, she had bruises all over her
body and she had to run to the nearest gas
station when he left and call the police, like he
just left her there like that.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
So but I, being in the Order, never heard the story.
Like I went my whole life thinking that David o'
kingston went to prison for I had no idea why
he actually went. The Order kind of made it seem
like they're just trying to prosecute us because we're polygamous.
They're trying to because of our religious beliefs. They're trying
to hurt us.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
It's always persecution and never a crime.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Yeah, never accountability on the men of course.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
Come to find out later it's because he was literally
raping his underage niece. And the sad part of this
story is he was supposed to get ten years, but
he got out in like four because of like he
promised that he wasn't gonna be living incess. Meanwhile he
has like how many wives of his or his own
half sisters? Crazy?

Speaker 5 (49:14):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Yeah, so I'm hearing this this This guy be like
did you know that Daniel beat Marianne? And my brain
is like no, because, uh, why would a numbered man
do that?

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Like wait, who said this to you?

Speaker 3 (49:25):
This was my friend, He was in the Order, but
he was in This is some tea, but it's also
like you have to like know the lore. Yeah, Merlin's family.
So Merlin was supposed to be the next leader. There's
this huge rivalry that when Ortel died, my grandpa, his
brother Merlin was supposed to be the leader, but instead
his son Paul swooped in and got the leadership because

(49:47):
his favorite wife was like, no, my son's going to
be the leader.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Oh juicy, Okay, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
So Merlin's son, like Merlin's family became like ostracized, and
even though they're all Kingston, it became like this divide
where Merlin's family was kind of teaching their family different
things because he was supposed to be the leader, and
then Paul's family kind of had hit their own things.
So then it was like again a cult within a
cult where don't talk to Merlin's family because they don't
know the true teachings even though they're in the order

(50:14):
to right. So Merlin's family would kind of be the
ones that would whispering me like did you know that
did you know that LaDonna used to do this and
Paul used to do this? Right? Marln's kid was like
did you know that Daniel beat Marianne and I was
like no. So then he told me, he's like, go
ask your dad, say dad, did Daniel beat Marianne. So
I was like, fine, I will I go ask my dad,

(50:35):
dad did Daniel beat Marianne? And he goes, let's not
talk about that, and instantly I knew. I was like,
oh my gosh, so this is what else are you hiding?
What else are you okay with them doing? And I
started to just I think at that point I was
just losing all respect for my dad because it's like, one,
you lied to me when I was a little kid
about you being my dad, and now you're sitting here

(50:57):
like you won't even enlighten me on the terrible things
that these men are doing. You're blindly following these men.
Not only that, you're wanting me to marry one of
their kids, you know, like, what's my fate if I
trust you with my future?

Speaker 5 (51:10):
Yeah? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Was that like a major Like yeah, oh yeah, that was.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
Like I'm gonna fight, kicking and screaming to get out
of here because apparently and the fact that like, no,
when I went to research more about the story, it
was turned into like if you went to the Kingston side,
like David's family, the guy that went to prison. If
you went to that family or to Daniel's family, they
were slut shaming the girl. It was all the girl's fault.

(51:39):
David did nothing wrong. This girl who was fifteen, right,
is the terrible person. And this is very common in
the order. I even heard recently one of the members
talking to their relatives, like I was kind of like
a fly on the wall in the conversation, and she
was saying similar things like slut shaming a fifteen year
old for being with an Oh man, Wow, but why

(52:01):
are you guys? It's because the men are running the society,
and the men want zero accountability, so they want it
all to be on the woman. Which I find that
so interesting though, because, like I was literally talking about
this the other day, how is it that we we
and these cults can be like the men are like,
it's all the women's fault. The woman made me do it.

(52:21):
It's like they they're they're forcing me. They have all
this power over me. Okay, then why doesn't the woman
be the leader of the church because she has she's.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Just so powerful.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's like the blind leading the blind over here.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Well, evil sinners can't lead churches, Amanda, you could never.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
But the story of Eve, I know that one's also
a very triggering one.

Speaker 5 (52:45):
It really is.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
I mean, this sounds like and I could be way off,
but this just sounds like some someplace so rife and
perfect for abuse that I'm surprised, Like I'm surprised Marian
didn't die, to be honest. It sounds like she was
beaten and left for dead almost like.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Yeah, and there's been cases where I really believe there's
been multiple cases that we don't even know that have
been cover ups because also there and I don't know
how it is right now, but when I was in
the order, my dad told me like a funny story
of how his mom didn't get him his birth certificate
till he was like eight years old. So it was
very common practice where they would not have birth certificates

(53:24):
for a while. So there's these kids just running around
with there's no there's no proof that they exist. And
my theory is that there was so much abuse in
the group because you know, they would literally teach that
if the kid is six months old, then they should obey,
they should be obedient, and if you have to use force,

(53:45):
then do it because the kids should be obeying. So
I think that the reason why they waited on their
birth certificates is because, yes, there was a lot of
diseases that these kids got and they didn't make it
because they don't believe in the hospitals. But then there
was also a lot of abuse, so they're like, well,
we just wait till they're like five to get their
birth certificate. That's my belief on it.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
That makes perfect sense. I mean your theory, not that
they would do it.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
Yeah, because also too, my mom had all ten kids
at home. I remember helping bury the placentas in the
backyard after done giving birth.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
That must have been what you thought your future was
really going to be. I mean, how terrifying to watch
a woman give birth at home and that much pain
and be like.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
This is what I'm going to do and like ten
times and that's it and that's my whole life's purpose.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yep. And with the grooming, though, so many women, including me,
are like, you know what, ten kids sounds good? Like
I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Really you were, you felt that excitement.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
I wasn't excited to get married to my relatives, but
I was excited to be a mom because we were
moms at such a young age already, and that was
honestly the one thing. And I bet you everyone you
interview from Polius cults will say the same thing, that
the the best thing that they had in these cults
was their siblings being raised with all of these siblings

(55:05):
being raised with their Like, I was kind of like
got the taste of being a mother with my little
you know. Literally, after my mom had her last kid,
they handed her off to me to go clean their
off while my dad was helping my mom, and so
I'm like the first person, one of the first people
like gets to hold this little baby and clean her,
and it is It's a really cool experience, and so
you want that, especially when that really is the highest

(55:29):
place that you get in the order. Sadly, as a woman,
not to say that like having a baby is like sad,
what a low thing, but to know that that's your
only greatest accomplishment is that you're going to be birthing
kind of like being livestock for the order.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Right, So can you tell us about your marriage and
how it ended up happening and how you felt, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Well, I actually didn't get married in the order though.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Oh you got married after yeah, yeah, yeah right, I
ran away? Right, So how did you not get married?
Is that story? Then?

Speaker 3 (56:01):
Yeah? So they they were basically it was going towards
that direction. Uh, and I had been like I was saying,
I had voiced my concern and I ended up so
I had run away multiple times. I've told this story
on my YouTube, but I have like a whole It's
like such a long story. But basically, the last day

(56:22):
I was there, I was trying to help my friend
get his money out of the Order Bank because he
was trying to leave and I had been working at
the Order bank. So it ended in this huge like
there was a physical altercation, like the leader's brother like
attacked me. I was bleeding at the neck. Police got called.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Wait he attacked you because you were trying to get
money out for your friend.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
I was like, I kind of wanted to spare you
the story, but if you want to hear, I'll tell.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Your I want to hear it if you if yeah,
if you don't mind, I mean I don't unless you
want to not spoil it because it's on your YouTube,
totally up to you.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
No, No, I I can tell you because there's a
little pieces of it, but basically he wasn't getting his
money out. They weren't lett him get his money out.
He had like thirty forty thousand dollars in there. He
calls me, I come over. We kind of kind of
we tried to devise a plan, and he was like, well,
you work there and they'll buzz you back, no problem.

(57:18):
And they're always so afraid of getting in trouble for
child labor, which is crazy. They're so afraid of getting
in trouble for that, yet they'd do it all everywhere right,
And we all knew that they were afraid because especially
at the office the order bank, there was all these
kids that worked in the back. You had to push
a button to buzz in the back, so no outsiders
could go back there. But when someone needed to come

(57:39):
fix like a copee machine or something, then they would
have all the kids like disperse, go hide, and then
the outsider would come in fix it. It would be like
empty and then leave and all the kids would come
back to go work.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
So we knew how paranoid they were of getting caught
for the breaking child labor laws. So he was like,
if you go back there, take pictures of the underage
kids working, and we used that as leverage to get
my money.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Is wow smart.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
I was like, oh, okay, that's a good idea. So
he gives me his phone. I go back there and
I start taking pictures. I guess I was obvious, but
I thought I was discreet. But I was. But in
this moment, too, I could have gotten away. But in
this moment, I realized that this is probably gonna be
the last time that I ever see these people. And
my one of my best friends worked in the office

(58:27):
right over to the left side of the building. So
I was like, I'm just going to go talk to
her one last time. And I ran over to her
and it was like one of those situations where it
was like I knew it was our last conversation, but
she didn't. It was just a normal conversation to her,
and again it was our very last conversation, Like I
never saw her again. Wow, But I'm talking to her

(58:47):
and I just remember seeing her because my back was
to the door. She was sitting in her office chair,
and I remember as we were talking, I just remember
seeing her face like looking behind me, like scared. And
it was Paul's coming from behind me to get the
phone that had the evidence, and it was such a blur,
like I just remember all of a sudden, like the

(59:09):
phone flew out of my hand and he was like
his arms were all over me, and then he was
like pushing me with his hip out the door and
it was in front of like I feel like at
least ten people saw this, and I just remember seeing
all their faces in shock as he's like shoving me
out the door. He had the phone in his hand,
and I just start I like he locked me out
of the door. So I'm like in shock adrenaline, and

(59:30):
so I run across the street to my friend. My
friend starts crying. He's like, you're bleeding, You're bleeding. And
I felt nothing because I had so much adrenaline and
so but I remember like touching my neck and there
was blood and I was like, I don't even know
how that happened because it happened so fast, but there
were handprints all over me. Like we eventually called the police,

(59:51):
and the police like took pictures. It was very obvious
that he put his hands on me, which later he
told the police like no, no, no, and he would
not talk to the police. Till his lawyer showed up.
His lawyers also a numbered man for the order. But
the craziest part of this story, and this is why
at the time, I was like, God must have been
watching us today. So I was super like, I definitely

(01:00:12):
believe that Heavenly Father was watching over me. And I
was one of the rare cases where I still believed
in God and that God didn't think I was going
to hell after leaving like a lot of times. Yeah,
everyone's usually like hell anyways, whatever, but I believe, like,
if there's a God, he's not the God they believe in,
because that sounds like the hell. And I don't want

(01:00:32):
to go to a heaven where all of you guys are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
I've literally never heard of someone like still believe it,
like believing that when they leave their religious group. That's crazy,
that's great, that's way better.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
And maybe it was a version of me kind of
like gaslighting myself, like Nope, there's a there's a heaven,
and it's exactly how I want it to be.

Speaker 5 (01:00:51):
It's called manifesting and we love it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Yeah, higher Power, right, Yeah, So I believe that Heavenly
Father was watching over me because this as we're calling
the police. There happened to be this cop that was
going back to the station. He heard our call. He
was like right in front of us, pulled over, and
he happened to be this same cop because because I
don't know if Priscilla talked about any of this topic
of a lot of the Order has policemen in their pockets,

(01:01:17):
like they pay off a lot of people. But I
happened to be calling one that they weren't, and he
happened to be the cop that was on the case
of So there's a little story of there was a
baby in the Order who was being babysat and this
is what the what ended up happening, and I'll and
I'll tell you what the truth is afterwards. So what
ended up happening was the baby. They claimed the babysitter

(01:01:40):
claimed that the baby fell, but by the autopsy, the
baby was beaten to death. Oh my god, and the
wrong person in my not in my opinion. I talked
to family members that were on this, so I truly
believe this is what happened. I think this is fact.
The wrong person went to prison to protect the abuser,

(01:02:00):
who was the leader's brother.

Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Right, and and they do scare tactics like that to
get the women to do that, or like it's an
honor to serve the Lord in this way whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
That went to God.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
Yeah, and it was a mother that went my mother
who had kids. Oh, went to this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Dude, Jesus. So this was the same cop you said.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
Yeah, the same cop that I had happened to be
driving on was the same cop that went to the
house and listened to the Kingston's lying about how the
baby just fell and so he and he told me this.
He pulled over and I'm like, I'm from the Kingston group.
I was probably sobbing, stuttering, like he probably was like,
what's going on? But he did say He's like, listen,
I know you're not lying. I was on the case

(01:02:48):
where they claimed that that baby had fallen, but I
know that they killed that baby. Like he was on
my side, like ride or die. He was so cool.
He tried to go in there to go speak to them,
and they were holy. The door shut and he was
telling us. He was like, they're they're shuffling around there,
paper flying everywhere. They're freaking out. They're not letting me.
Oh wow, they're acting so suspicious like he was on

(01:03:09):
my side. He was taking pictures for me, and he
I remember him saying, take this as you're silver lining
and get out and never look back. And like to
this day, I'm like, I'm so glad that I had
that experience because it helped me through validate just validating
a lot of things that happened, and then realizing I
don't know this whole story was so crazy because even

(01:03:30):
after talking to him and him like kind of giving
me that pep talk, thirty minutes later, another cop shows up,
pulls over, has me separate from the group and sit
in his car with him, and he starts to say, like, look,
do you really want to press charges on Jason, Like
it's so much work for you to have to go
to court multiple times and he's going to get a

(01:03:52):
slap on the wrist. And I'm over here like just
a seventeen year old, scared little kid, colt kid has
no ideas what the laws are. And so I'm like, okay, yeah,
but I do remember feeling weird about it, so I
asked for his card. Later on, I showed the card
to another girl that had been out of the order
for a long time. She's like, yeah, he works for
the Order.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Wow, God, this is like the most dramatic TV show
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
I'm like transfixed.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Yeah, so you left that day.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
That was July twenty fifth of twenty thirteen. That was
the last day. Like, in hindsight, it was all it
really was a sober lining, like seeing all of that
unfold and it happening so fast. Which after, by the way,
after I'd been attacked, after the guy, the uncle that
attacked me, Paul's brother starts to talk to the police.

(01:04:45):
We can see him lying to the police, Like we
can see him showing how he escorted me out within
like an hour, the whole order. Same thing was happening
to me as Marianne, Right, I'm getting slutshamed. I guess what.
Amanda actually never got touched by him. She claught herself
in the throat and there's video evidence that she did that.

(01:05:06):
And like, I'm like, because these are the people that
were sharing this information knew me. I was like, so
you think that it's but in my brain so at
the time it was really really hard for me to hear.
I was like, WHOA. But in hindsight, what was really
happening was at least I think it is easier to
believe that I was just this crazy cult member, right,

(01:05:28):
or this crazy person that just wanted to bring down
the order and hurt the order, than to believe that
the leadership is flawed. Yeah, right, to believe that the
leadership actually did attack Amanda and did do these things.
But the part that I'm actually really glad for is
there were, like I said, like ten witnesses that did

(01:05:48):
see him lay his hands on me. So there's got
to be or at least was at the time a
debate going on. They saw it with their own eyes.
They are people who don't want to believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
I would love to be a fly on the wall
in tho debates between people who saw it and people
who didn't believe it and I and I'm like, I
wonder if people who saw it even could gaslight themselves into.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
It to be like maybe it wasn't what yeah yeah,
yeah yeah. Because also too, like this is the part
that I kept saying over and over, at least to
anyone who would hear, because I started to get cut
off from people really really fast, Even like the girl
that saw me get attacked that I never saw again.
She was texting me She's like, I cannot believe he
did that. Are you okay? And then all of a sudden,
like her texts were like different because they you could

(01:06:34):
tell that someone t coached her and said, hey, we
don't want a manage to be able to use any
evidence against us. Blah blah blah. Do you want to
be hurting the order? You don't want to be hurting
right right, She's starting to feel scared and so. But
my defense was always when people would say they have footage,
they have footage that he never touched you, I would say,
then why didn't he show that footage to the police,
Because he did end up having to do anger management

(01:06:56):
and he had it on his record, So if there
was evidence he never attacked a minor, then he would
not have had to do that, right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
And I love when people say there's evidence but then
they could never produce it, like it's just show and
it showed me somewhere. It's like, okay, yeah, we let's
let the truth come out. Then show me the evidence, right,
but now, exactly where did you go that day?

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
At that time, I was kind of like dating this guy.
It was the guy that I ended up marrying, and
he he so I don't like to say too much
about his side because we're divorced now, and whenever I
talk about him, he's like, keep my name out of
your mouth. But he was there and he was on

(01:07:41):
the reports. So he was there with my friend like
they were waiting for me to come out, and he
he was like, you guys can come stay in my house,
and we kind of like all huddled together, like as
an emotional support group. But he the part that shocked
me about him, that was eye opening with him, and honestly,
I think is a big reason why we ended up.
I ended up leaving him seven years later after the

(01:08:03):
after getting married. In this moment when I was attacked,
when I had blood coming out of my neck and
we were calling the police, his response was to call
the leader and be like, come come get your brother,
like he believed that the leader would be on his side.
Like he was like, without a doubt, there's no way
the leader would be because he's still kind of believed.

(01:08:25):
And it pissed me off because I was like, dude, like,
there's no way he's going to take my side over
his brother. He's like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong.
He kept trying to call, call, call, and I was right, yeah,
I was like obviously, like and here here. It is
like the leadership was all shaming me. And honestly, I
feel like that needed to happen for him to realize like,

(01:08:45):
oh my gosh, they don't care about us. I'm like, yeah, dah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Right, what did I feel like having your community turn
on you like that? Because I just it just seems
like it would be so so painful.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
It definitely was, because it's like it's not only that
I just left and never saw these people again. They
were like kicking you while you're down on the way out,
you know, yeah, And it was almost like they wanted
to see you suffer. I just remember. One of the
memories that really sticks out was one of my really
good friends that I was like really close with. We
would sneak out together, we would break you order standards together.

(01:09:21):
She had a secret phone and she messaged me and
she was like, it's just a really good thing that
you're leaving and you're not bringing anyone else to heck
with you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Oh m, did she say? She said to Heck.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
I'm pretty sure it was Heck. It's in tech. They're
like if they're afraid to say at double oh my god,
but her she thought I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Was Heck, yeah, and all of your siblings that you've
helped raise, it's just like, yeah, it's it's like apocalyptic emotionally.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
Yeah, it's just unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
Right, I think I think everyone that leaves goes through
that of it's like mourning people that are still alive. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
But as you heal and you do therapy and you
grow and you start to learn what healthy love is,
you kind of realize that none of them ever unconditionally
loved you anyways at the beginning. Yeah, it was all
a love based on conditions and what can you do
for me? You know?

Speaker 5 (01:10:20):
And the order?

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Right, that's your only purpose?

Speaker 5 (01:10:24):
What is that first month year out?

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
Like, I feel like for me was probably different than
other people because my year happened so fast and escaping
polygamy actually contacted me within like six months of my escape,
and I think that to me it was a good
thing because it was also kind of a I don't know,
it was bittersweet because it was like a distraction, but
it was also like forcing me to work through my

(01:10:49):
trauma because I kept going back to the order topics,
but I realized there was something wrong with me. I
definitely had a lot of shame and guilt and hate
that was kind of in me even in the order,
because you're surrounded by that and you're talked the way
that you're talked at too by your parents becomes your
internal dialogue, right, So I had a lot of hate, guilt,

(01:11:11):
shame and stuff that came from the order, and then
on top of that, you're like mourning the loss of
your family. It was I was lucky enough that I
did have siblings that still snuck out to come see me,
and I'm so grateful for that. They ended up leaving later, right,
But I was in and out of therapy for a
lot of years, and it took a lot of Do
you hear this this thing of like healings never linear, right,

(01:11:32):
But it's true, And I think that there were times
where it was like really really good, and then it
was like I don't want to I don't want to
heal anymore. It's too hard, and so I'd have to
take a break and then my mental health will go
down and then I want to go back up. You know.
It's kind of just like putting in the work is
really hard, especially when you were not given the tools
in your childhood. So now as an adult, it almost

(01:11:54):
felt like it was like a culture shock. It's it
almost felt like going from one planet to another planet
where they're all speaking a different language, right, because my
whole world was this cult and what worked in the
cults doesn't work out here, so it's like trying to
figure that out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
It's important to mention I think that on our healing journeys,
taking breaks is just probably inevitably going to be a
part of it. Like we have, you know, it's very
we want to think we can just kind of like
power through it and be like I'm healed, and like
it's just like a straight yeah, like a straight line up.
But like that's not how it works, and that's okay,
and that's normal and that's part of it.

Speaker 5 (01:12:31):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:12:31):
Even being reminded of that right now.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
I was like, oh, a thousand pounds has just been
lifted off my shoulders.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
You're right, Yeah, how did you even know.

Speaker 5 (01:12:39):
What therapy was or like how to find a therapist?

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
That's a really good This is a good point to
end on and maybe even if you can have some
of this in a description box for any members who
anyone from any cults they're trying to leave. Holding Out
Help actually helped me to have access to free therapy
when I left. I'm so grateful for that because I
wouldn't have gotten it. I wouldn't have been spending money

(01:13:05):
on that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
And how did you know about that? Like, how did
you come in to contact them?

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
There was multiple ex Order members who asked me if
I had heard of them, and I think even while
I was in the Order, someone slipped me the information,
so I knew that there was resources. And at the
time I never lived with them, but I know that
Holding Out Help now offers like housing for people that
are leaving the WOW therapy they offer for me. What
I took advantage of was they helped me get a

(01:13:30):
job because I didn't know how to have a resume.
I was just given all my jobs in the Order, right,
so they helped me write a resume. They helped me
get my first job. They helped me get a gas
card so that I could ford gas to get to
the job. They offer like phones, phone covering, phone bills,
stuff like that. So I think it's such a good resource,
And doesn't your mom also has resources.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
As well, right, Yeah, Voices for Dignity in southern Utah
in the in the Short Creek area. She does really
similar work there as well. Yeah, it's like we need
the organizations like that because so many people, I mean,
like my mom, actually, my mom and me when we
left our you know, we're homeless briefly, like after she
got out of her situation and realized that the man

(01:14:14):
was a fraud, we had no money and we had
nowhere to go, and there was no understanding of that
at the time, and there were no resources, and it
made her healing journey just takes so much longer because
you're in survival mode at the same time.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
You can't heal when you're your basic needs are not being.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
Met right, right exactly. And yeah, like I hope more
of these organizations crop up all across the country, but
I'm so glad that some of them are doing that
work already. Amanda, we have to wrap up with you.
I don't want to.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
Another one, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Seriously, what would you say to somebody who is just
beginning to wonder if the group that they're in could
be a cult? Do you have any advice or thoughts or.

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):
Tips recently on one of my live streams actually had
an Order member commenting and he was like, my family
doesn't abuse me. My family's actually pretty good in the Order.
And I told him. I was like, well, well, they
may not physically abuse you, but they may be emotionally
abusing you and you may be unaware. And he was like, Nope,
they're not emotionally abusing me. And I was like, do

(01:15:20):
they believe in the law of one above another? And
he was like yes, And I was like, the lave
of one above another is emotional abuse, because what is
the definition of emotional abuse. It basically is what the
abuser is doing is trying to make the victim trust them,
trust the abuser more than themselves, lose trusting themselves, not
have a sense of self. That's what emotional abuse does.

(01:15:41):
And what the law of one above another is is
basically literally that like, we are going to tell you
what God says because we can't trust you with your
relationship with God, so you're gonna have to talk to
God through us, right. So my point in this is
if someone is questioning if you are a member of
a cult, or in your brain you're gonna think you're
not in a cult, right, I never did when I

(01:16:04):
was in it. If you're questioning, there's a reason you're questioning,
and you need to trust yourself enough to let yourself
dive into those questions to get the answers that you deserve.
And anyone who's trying to make you distrust yourself is
probably emotionally abusing you. So questions are good things. There

(01:16:26):
we critically think and how we can find the best environment,
the safest environment for ourselves. So anytime you are questioning,
trust yourself that you're going to make the decisions for yourself.
That's such a hard it's like easier than done, especially
when you're in a cult and you're you don't have
a very good sense of self because they don't create
that environment for you. But questions are a good thing

(01:16:47):
and you should basically hone in on that as much.

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):
As Yes, yes, I love that questions. Yes, Amanda, Where
can people find you online?

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
Yes? I have a YouTube channel if you look up
Amanda ray Are eight and then I also have Instagram
amandatory Grant. I have a TikTok as well. I do
kind of have a podcast, but like under construction right now.
The Colt to Crew podcast cool well, we will be back.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
But I hope. So thank you so much for talking
to us. This has been awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
Yes, thank you so much for having me. It's nice
to meet both. Well, I know Lola, but it's nice
to meet you as well.

Speaker 5 (01:17:23):
Amanda.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Wow, I cannot wait to talk to Amanda again. She
is fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
Yes, thanks to Amanda for coming on. And we have
some news that's it's vague still, but we are making
some changes over here. We are actually moving homes, so
prepare for there to maybe be some weeks off and
maybe some some things seem a little different for a
little while, but trust me, we will be back.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
And by homes you mean networks, not like our actual homes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
No, I wanted everybody to know that we are moving
apartments and they will be affected a buy that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
Yeah, so it might be a week off here or there,
but we'll be back. And uh special thanks to podcast one,
especially Steven Gabby, who we've loved so much.

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
So indeed, we've had a wonderful team. But the future,
the future awaits us and we can't wait wait to
bring you all with us.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
Indeed, indeed, indeed, did you just say indeed?

Speaker 5 (01:18:23):
And then I'm saying indeed.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
I don't know that's our thing now, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Well as always remember to follow your gut, watch out
for red flags, and never.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
Ever trust me.

Speaker 4 (01:18:35):
Bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rap and
Steve Delemator.

Speaker 5 (01:18:43):
The special thanks to Stacy Para.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
And I I'm Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hits on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.

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Amanda Rae - The Kingston Clan and Escaping Polygamy

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Amanda Rae - The Kingston Clan and Escaping Polygamy