Carolyn Costin - The Link Between Cults and Eating Disorders - Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, this is producer Steve And in the event
that you're still looking for some holiday gifts right now,
well La, Megan and I encourage you to go check
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(00:21):
else's a big fan of the podcast, so go check
it out. We would really appreciate it, And from all
of us here on the show, thank you week in
and week out for choosing to listen to Trust Me.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Trust Me, Trust for trust Me.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
I'm like a swad person.

Speaker 5 (00:57):
Yeah, I've been never lied to you.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
If you think that one person has all the answers
don't welcome to trust me. The podcast about colts, extreme
belief and manipulation from two healthy selves who have actually
experienced it.

Speaker 4 (01:12):
I'm low Lablanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Today is a unique episode. It is our two hundredth episode.
Can you fucking believe that?

Speaker 6 (01:23):
Honestly?

Speaker 7 (01:26):
What the what?

Speaker 3 (01:27):
How have we talked that?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:29):
What do we even say? It is so confusing, I know,
and I feel.

Speaker 7 (01:34):
Like we've just touched the tip of the iceberg.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's fully when I well, let me introduce our guests first,
and then we'll talk more about that. Today. Our guest
is someone who's special to you, and her name is
Carolyn Costen. She is an eating disorder therapist, author and expert,
and we are going to talk today about the links
between colts and eating disorders, Why so many cults control
the eating habits of their members or lead to its

(01:59):
members developing one after leaving, what control has to do
with it, and why having an eating disorder is like
having a little cult eater in your brain.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
We'll talk a little bit about Carolyn's practice and my
experience in eating disorder treatment and the parallels between helping
someone out of a cult and helping someone recover from
an eating disorder, both in terms of not attacking them
and in terms of the importance of rebuilding a genuine
sense of self and purpose without the cult or eating disorder.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
And Carolyn is the one who actually helped you recover
from your eating disorder.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Carolyn is my north star. And I can't go about
shouting out.

Speaker 6 (02:38):
My personal therapist.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
While I was there Anna, I don't know, like a
year ago, I went through an experience in my life
and I just drove straight to Anna's house and that
experience was then fixed.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh good.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
The whole community there was really amazing. And we'll get
into that as my Cult Tans thing of the week.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, and you know, obviously this isn't like a literal
cult episode, but it is interesting how many parallels there are,
because it's like it's like a type of altered thinking,
Like it's an altered reality that to get health again
you have to kind of emerge out of. But it's
such a tricky process obviously, as we will talk about,
and I think it.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Draws a lot of parallels to just a lot of
the things that people in cultes start to experience, which
is and we talk about this in the episode, but
substance abuse, domestic abuse, just all of these things that
can happen, even if you haven't experienced it yourself. I
think everybody knows somebody with an eating disorder, and it's
kind of important, just on so many different levels.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
You've wanted to do an episode on this for a while.
It's personal to you, and I am glad that you. Yeah,
I'm glad that we did it, So stick with us people. Yeah,
it's a good interview. Lots of interesting points and parallels.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
I mean, the parallels to cults is really crazy. I
knew there would be, but it's pretty shocking.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Before we get into it with her. I mean, what
is or culty is thing?

Speaker 6 (04:00):
My cultiest thing is about me?

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Perfect, No, it is.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
So I've just been reflecting a lot this week on
our two hundredth episode and this interview in particular, and
all of the mixed feelings that come up when you
have family that are in a high control religion, what
you consider a cult, and you know, doing this podcast
has been such a gift, but it brings up so

(04:29):
many things for me and so much in particular around
me even being alive today because my parents sent me
to treatment with Carolyn, which is expensive, which was such
a big deal.

Speaker 6 (04:45):
And every Saturday would.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Be family weekend where you'd have group therapy with your family,
and a lot of times the girls' families wouldn't come, which,
like I get it, but like my parents would fly
in from way across the country every weekend, stay like
my dad has a full time job, like stay at
a bus western show up at the thing like how
do we help our daughter?

Speaker 6 (05:07):
And so you know, there's just the sense of like betrayal.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
And maybe you can tell me if I'm explaining that
well enough. But what kind of got me out of
this high control religion was being sent somewhere where I
recovered from something the high control religion probably gave me,
which was an eating disorder. And I feel bad that
my family didn't get that same experience.

Speaker 7 (05:31):
I feel bad that everybody and a.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Cult doesn't are in a high control group doesn't get
to go do what I got to do. So hopefully
sharing this message is my way of paying it forward.

Speaker 6 (05:45):
But yeah, I wish everybody I was, including.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
My parents, got to go do what I got to do.
So lots of mixed emotions.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, I think I think that's such an interesting contradiction
that I think comes up for a lot of people,
which you know, when you still when your face only
is still part of a group or religion, like and
you know they're good people and you love them and
you're like that. That creates such a conflict in your mind.
But it's the worst, And especially someone like you who's

(06:12):
in a position where you taught you are speaking out
about yeah, that group and groups like that all the time,
but you still love your Yeah, I mean, and you
know we all still love our families who are still
part of these religions. Yeah, it's a hard contradiction to hold,
especially when they were so helpful to you in getting
you out of your any disorder which got you out

(06:33):
of their group.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, I would have been real dead. I mean when
when I pulled up to Montanito, I was like, uh.

Speaker 7 (06:42):
Oh, and you know what trigger warning?

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Because sometimes talking about recovering from eating disorders is very
triggering for people with eating disorders. I don't know why,
because it'll just throw out of numbers and stuff like that.
So if if you're the one with an eating disorder,
I don't know trigger warning, but yeah, I pulled up
just a completely different person than I left.

Speaker 7 (07:02):
And it was crazy.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
So yeah, well, I'm I'm glad you shared. I'm glad
you shared this.

Speaker 7 (07:08):
Yeh, what's your cultiest thing of the week.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
It's dumb, I mean whatever. I am like, I'm reading
a book for a book club called The Sacred Conspiracy.
So the French writer George Batai, which I had no
idea how to pronounce that before this. I am not

(07:33):
going to pretend I knew about this person other than
that he existed. He was this like French writer was
a part of the surrealist movement in the twenties thirties.
I think he started a secret society at the time
called asse Fall. I think I'm saying that correctly. They

(07:54):
had all this imagery around, like the Headless Man, and
I'm I haven't gotten that far into it, so I
don't know that much about it. Yeah, but in a nutshell,
so he was a part of this group of philosophers
and writers who were like opposed fascism, but they were
kind of disillusioned with all of the different types of
thinking at the time, and so basically but Ti was
like so basically like he wanted to create a secret

(08:17):
society centered around this idea of a headless man. It
was like a secret society where they would literally gather
in the woods at night next to some like old
tree or whatever, and they like the whole idea was
talking about how sacrifice was like the ultimate form of

(08:37):
the sacred, and legend has it. It seems like it's
probably a little overblown, but legend has it that they
wanted to actually do a human sacrifice every but everyone
wanted to volunteer to be the sacrifice. Me me, it
seems like that might be like a little bit of

(08:58):
you know, legend, Wow.

Speaker 6 (08:59):
No, but he wanted to do this.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean, this secret group sounds super cool.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
I mean it's an interesting reaction because like at the
time they were these like leftists, but they were so
like sick of the politics of the time and.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah the thirties, I mean they were like, yeah, let's
get out of here.

Speaker 6 (09:16):
Yeah, chop someone's head off.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
They were like, yeah, we need to go into the
more like sort of mythological spiritual plane, I guess, And
I like, I'm I relate to that. I'm like, fuck,
I'm so sick of yeah, human politics and war and
get us to the fifth dimension like I'll sacrifice something.
I mean nothing, You're looking at.

Speaker 7 (09:37):
Me a little too hungrily.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
I'll sacrifice something.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
Oh Okay, I don't.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
I'm not that far into it, so I'm probably I
probably sound super dumb. But it's fun that he started
a secret society, and I will if anything else I've learned,
anything else interesting, I'll talk about it.

Speaker 6 (09:55):
Awesome.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
While we can't have two hundred episodes without saying a
special thank.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
You to Steve.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's our producer who's an angel, and our listeners and
everyone who's bought.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
A T shirt or love to review all of it,
we love you so much.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Thank you so much for listening. Thank you Steve so
much for editing our stop and starts.

Speaker 6 (10:16):
We love you, Steve.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
All right, shall we talk to Carolyn.

Speaker 6 (10:19):
Let's do it.

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Speaker 3 (11:40):
Welcome Carolyn Costen to trust me. Thanks so much for
joining us.

Speaker 5 (11:44):
Oh well, thanks for having me. I'm kind of excited
to be here.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Megan's been telling me about you for so long. I
can't believe we finally have you on.

Speaker 7 (11:52):
This is a dream for me. Thank you so much
for being here.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
We have you here with us today to talk about
eating disorders, which is something Megan has been wanting to
do an episode on for a really long time. It's
a world I don't really know that much about, but
from what I do understand, there are some really interesting
parallels between cult thinking and eating disorder thinking. You know,
correct me if there's better terminology. But you know, we
do hear so many stories about cult leaders controlling people's

(12:16):
diets and almost like giving people eating disorders, and then
of course people kind of develop their own internal high control,
like person inside of their mind?

Speaker 5 (12:27):
Right?

Speaker 3 (12:27):
Does that Is that a good way to explain them again?

Speaker 7 (12:29):
Yeah? Yeah, I Carolyn, What do you think of that explanation?

Speaker 5 (12:32):
Yeah? I mean, I think the thing about a cult
is usually there's some association with a cult leader, although
cults can be around ideology and philosophy and religion. But
usually we think of cults and we think of this
cult leader. But what happens with the eating disorder? I mean,
when you think about it, who is the leader. I mean,
in some ways the leaders change in terms of social

(12:54):
media drive with thinness. But what happens over time is
you develop your own an internal task master inside. You know,
this sort of person who's it's a part of yourself,
but it's creating dogma and rituals, indoctrinating and you in
a way you kind of brainwash yourself. But I'll get

(13:15):
into that.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, So, as someone who knows less about this subject,
can you define what an eating disorder actually is and
how you kind of know if you have one?

Speaker 5 (13:24):
Not? Really? Okay, here's the thing. The thing about an
eating disorder, there's a classic diagnostic, you know, definition of
different eating disorders. There's most people I think know anarexia nervosa,
blamia nervosa, and binge eating disorder. But there are other
ones along the way. There's restrictive, there's arfid, there's subclinical

(13:50):
what they call eating disorders where you don't really meet
the full criteria for any of those. But really it's
when disordered eating habits have taken so much control over
your life that it almost feels like they have a
life of their own. So what you started off doing,
like let's say you started off dieting and you want

(14:11):
like me. In my case, I wanted to lose weight.
I made a bet with some girlfriends. You know, I
wanted to win the bet. I have sort of a
type a personality, and I just won that bet, lost
weight and kept going. But I had trained my mind
at that point eating these foods is bad, don't do it.

(14:34):
And certain personality types and we'll get into that too,
have more of a tendency to take those kind of
things to an extreme. So if you're a perfectionist, or
if you're a lost soul in a way, if you've
had other things that have caused problems and you're looking
for something to feel like, oh I'm really successful and

(14:54):
I'm really good at this, there are a lot of
different pathways. Actually, I call it a jigsaw puzzle, and
all the pieces come together and sort of create this
eating disorder. And it's almost like the person has two personalities.
They have theirself that people used to recognize and identify

(15:14):
with and talk to, and then they have this other
ego state that tells them don't eat this, don't do that,
you have to run ten miles anything less, and you
know you're a bad person. Almost as if a leader
would be telling you to do that.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, it just correlates so perfectly with what we've learned
on this podcast of like, you know, you're so susceptible,
if you're a perfectionist, or if you're super lost, or
just anything to kind of give your brain a relief.

Speaker 7 (15:43):
It's so odd that.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
It often comes at the expense of hurting yourself, right, Yeah,
it's wild.

Speaker 5 (15:49):
And it doesn't seem that. I mean, here's another thing
very uncanny that's like cults. Is you started off thinking, oh,
this is something that I can do, this is something
that's going to improve my life, this is something that
makes sense to me, gives me a sense of meaning
and purpose, and you get into it for your betterment,

(16:09):
you know. And as you go along, though, you have
to sort of follow the dogma and follow the rituals
and follow everything, and the deeper you get in, the
harder it is to see the full perspective, and the
harder it is, especially if you worked really hard and
followed all the rituals for anyone to start to challenge it.

(16:29):
And that's why it's so hard to get out of
a cult, because you're only listening to and you're only
following the sort of dogma of the cult. So when
someone challenging it, it's like they're challenging your belief system.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
I have more questions about that, but I want to
hear a little bit more about your personal backstory, Like,
so your journey kind of began with a competition with
your friends. Can you talk about how it happens.

Speaker 5 (16:55):
Yeah, I mean, this is in the time of when
Twiggy was just be coming on the scene as oh no,
really skinny fashion. Everyone started going, wow, these models. My
father left my mother for a fashion model. I had
a kind of a perfectionist and I tend to run anxious.

(17:18):
So now, looking back, I can see all the ingredients,
but at the time, I just thought, oh, I'm really
successful at this. I'm you know, losing weight is good,
Gaining weight is bad. That's the other thing. You get mantras,
you know. And I got on the scale and if
I was losing weight, that was a good thing. So
this was in the ancient times.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
This is in the nineteen hundreds, not that bad, but.

Speaker 5 (17:43):
Like nineteen sixty nine ish, and I went off to
college still, you know, very very restrictive and losing weight.
I probably lost about forty some pounds, and there weren't
people around that really knew. No one said, oh, she

(18:04):
has anarexia. Finally, there was one doctor who told my mom, oh, yeah,
there's this book this lady wrote but it was mostly
about It was Hilda Brooch and she's one of the
first people who wrote about eating disorders. And she wrote
a book like two thirds about obesity and a little
back in. One third of the book was about anarexita

(18:26):
and rivosa. But but but here's here's what I think
is really interesting about the power of how you get
out of things. I was on my way to a
Christmas party and I was telling myself. I could hear,
you know, this internal voice saying, when you get to
that party, you're not going to eat one thing. You're

(18:47):
gonna you're gonna there's gonna be cookies and candy and
all this stuff, and you're not gonna eat one thing.
Another part of me, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, really,
this other part of me said, that's easy for you
to do. Now you've been doing this for a while.
It's easy for you. What would be hard for you
to do is go in there and eat a cookie

(19:07):
or a couple of cookies and deal with it. And
I was really like, who's that Oh, who's that voice? Yeah?
That continued to happen, and my whole philosophy is based
around that. My whole philosophy is based around the fact
that we do have an internal self that knows better,
but a part of us can be co opted, a

(19:28):
part of us can be taken. To a point where
I was getting a lot of attention for it. People
were saying, how do you lose weight? I want to
know how you did it. I tried and I wasn't
able to. I felt like on the top of the world.
I'm getting thin, twiggies getting famous. You know it was.
It was a perfect storm. Yeah, my work has been

(19:48):
to help people, and this is also true with a cult.
You really have to understand people when they're in a cult.
You have to understand why they're in, what they why
they believe in it so strongly, what it's satisfying for them.
When I help people with eating disorders, I don't just
go in and say I'm taking this away from you.
I help them to get the strength to bring the

(20:10):
healthy part of them forward again. And I think it's
the same thing you have to do with somebody who's
in what we would consider as these other cults out there.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
What do you think sparked that healthy voice to talk
to you? On the way to the Christmas party, we
hear a lot of people say, like, suddenly my cult
just like in it didn't make sense to me, Like
what happened there?

Speaker 7 (20:31):
Why do you think your healthy self turned on?

Speaker 5 (20:33):
You know, it's a good question, but I think we
do have it in there. And for me, I think
there was a part of me that realized at one point,
oh I And this was a turning point too. At
one point when I was thinking I was so in control,
I also had a realization, you know what, you're not
really in control. This is kind of out of control.

(20:56):
Because I had I couldn't sleep well because my knees
were knocking because the bones were so thin. My social
life wasn't very good because I couldn't go out to
eat with anybody because I was ordering like bean sprouts.
You know, right, there were a lot of signs. I
feel lucky, Megan, I feel lucky that I had the
other spark that comes out. I think we all have it.

(21:19):
I think some of us need a little bit of
push to see it, which is what I do. I
like blow on people's sparks. That's what I feel like
I do, and that part is what gets people better,
because if you go in and you start to say
stop doing that, it's bad for you, and you try
to take it away from somebody, they just grab back
even harder. I'm got good at helping people get out

(21:41):
of regular cults.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
I was gonna say, it seems like you have a
really good grasp on how that works. People feel attacked,
you know, if you directly attack their belief system coming
out of a cult. They feel like, you know, there's
this thing that's become their life, it's become their identity.
It's become who they are, and they don't want to
hear you tell them they're dumb or they're doing something bad.
They do kind of have to come to that conclusion

(22:03):
on their own.

Speaker 5 (22:03):
Those are really good words. Identity. It becomes an identity.
So another thing is when people, for a long time
in the field, we would call people, oh, she's an
anorexic or she's a bellimic. And I started this trend
thirty five years ago saying we're not stop doing that.
We have to because they already it's become their identity,

(22:27):
and we're concretizing it by calling this person an anorexic.
We have to say she has anorexia nervosa, which means
she can also choose to not have it, but if
you call her an anorexic. So I don't even use
those terms anymore. And now I think it's fairly common
that people don't use those terms, but I still hear
it a lot, the identity piece. It's hard, you don't.

(22:49):
I remember when people were saying, we're trying to help
me and you know, get rid of it, and I
was like, it's not an it, that's me you're talking about.
That's why I like to connect with the person's healthy
self that's in there, strengthen that. And so when I
meet people and I'm talking to them, I mean, I'm
always searching for where is the healthy self? And often

(23:13):
it comes out for other people. It's not always the
same in other cults, but in this sort of cult
is following with the basically it's the philosophy, and in
some ways, and not totally, but a lot of people
with eating disorders and there are differences here and there,
but in some way, this pursuit of thinness you can
think of as sort of philosophy, the religion of thinness,

(23:38):
you know. But if you have that as the core philosophy,
people with eating disorders will often be able to take
care of somebody else or bring their healthy self out
for somebody else, Like for example, if Megan's in a
group with me and somebody else is struggling, may and
can give that person reassurance, you know, like, no, you're

(23:58):
not going to get fat eating one piece of pizza.
Can't do it for herself. And that's why it's really
important to show people you have it in there. I
have mothers who feed their kids perfectly and then binge
purge all day, you know. And what I have to
do is say, you got a healthy self in there.
I know you have it. It comes out for your kids.
Where did it go? How did it get repressed? How

(24:22):
did it get you served? And that's what happens when
you have brainwashing and you have I mean, for every
image we get on social media or advertising or even
watching television shows, there's very few that are counter culture
to what we get about the pursuit of thinness and

(24:45):
image being more important than substance, so we have to
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I connect with some of what you're saying from more
of you know, the OCD side of things, which I
also see having and Megan point at this out as well.

(26:18):
I also see a lot of overlap in in like
cultish thinking with OCD thinking, because it's all about this
the need for certainty, which really comes down to feeling
like you have some control when you feel out of
control in some way. And with OCD that might be
I need the certainty of, you know, knowing my mom's
not going to die if I don't do this thing,
or knowing that I'm not going to lose my mind

(26:39):
or whatever. And with cults it's I need the certainty
of somebody giving me answers because for whatever reason, I
don't feel I have them right now my life feels
chaotic or the world is or whatever. Can you talk
about the element of like a need for control within
uny disorders, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (26:55):
I think I mean people talk about it a lot
and say that's all about control, isn't it, And that
is a big part of it. It's not everything, but
it's a big part of it. And what happens is
you have a very easy way to know if you're
successful or not. It's very black and white becomes it
becomes if you say, I'm only going to have this
many calories a day and then you stick to it,

(27:18):
that's a very easy thing. It's harder to life is
so gray and vague and hard to navigate. But if
someone gives you, oh, but here, you can be successful.
So if I made it to the day eating a
certain amount or skipping a certain amount, or weighing a

(27:38):
certain amount, or running a certain amount of miles. I mean,
that's why I try to get people with eating disorders
away from using numbers, because numbers become cages, you know,
like if you run a mile one day, you have
to run a mile the next day, and then a
mile the next day, and now that's a ritual and
you can't run less than that or else there's a problem,

(27:59):
and undisciplined and unworthy which is another sort of culty word,
but unworthy. So control the other thing you have to
point out with people with eating disorders which I think
is helpful is I'll say, it feels like you're in control,
but you're really in control of your out of controlness.

Speaker 7 (28:18):
That's what it's like, right, right, right.

Speaker 5 (28:21):
And that's a good thing. You know, you have to
take this logic and use it. You know, if someone
wants to really be in control, I'll say, well, that's okay,
I understand say that I liked to be in control.
I still like to be in control of my life
right now. You know, I have a little I'm a
little anxious, and that's just my temperament. But are you
really in control? Because if you're ending up in a

(28:42):
treatment centerre and you're ending up not being able to
go out with your friends, and you're ending up and
you can just X, Y and z, then you think
you're in control, but really you're in control of you're
out of controlness. It's a really good way to get
people to sort of think twice. You want people to
begin to think twice. You want people to begin to

(29:03):
question getting somebody out of a cult. You want them
to begin to question themselves rather than you forcing the
issue and saying, don't believe them, believe me, and then
you're just like them right right.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
You know you said control isn't all of it. What
are some of the other things, like what's really going
on in science?

Speaker 5 (29:24):
Well, for example, I mean, some people don't think of
it as control as much as they think of it.
I mean, this is really weird, but purely they're looking
at the weight loss and the thinness and I'm going
to be attractive and I'm going to have people, you know,
be in a get in a partnership with somebody, and

(29:45):
they don't see it as much control. It also depends
on cultures. I mean there are some cultures where control
was even more important than thinness, you know. And then
you know, this is rare, but I've even had blind
people who have eating disorders. But theres is about ritual
and about following the rules and about having things to

(30:06):
be I feel safe if I'm following the rules, I
feel safe. And I am also in this group of
people who are revered. When you're in a cult and
there's a leader and then there's the top people in
the echelon, you know, the cabinet members, and you sort
of feel like you're part of the in group. You

(30:28):
can feel like that in this culture, part of the
in group. But when they did, they did these studies
in Fiji. Oh my god. Yeah, like years ago, like
I think nineteen ninety five or something like that. Fiji
had no television and no eating disorders. They brought television
in right around then, and three years later nineteen ninety eight,

(30:51):
now they have eating disorders. But the girls were the
girls where they were even throwing up to lose weight
after television was introduced. But when the girls were interviewed,
what they said was that they saw that the girls
on the television shows that had the best parts, the
highest status, you know, was always the star was the

(31:14):
thin one. The other other girls who were bigger got
the secondary roles. Isn't that interesting? So it was about
status really, not not just thinking of being thin, but
they equated thinness with status and look around. We love that.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
And I think that's where I got hooked in. Like
I remember being at Montinado, your treatment center, and I
think a lot of you know, I in some cases
people go get treatment, and let's just say for drugs,
which is another thing. People in high control groups are
very you know, prone to getting addicted to But that's
a whole other conversation. But you know, you can go

(31:53):
to rehab for cocaine and then somebody can tell you
about math, and suddenly your thing is worse. And so,
you know, I think a fear for some people is
you go to treatment for kind of mild anorexia and
then maybe somebody who's way more anorexic like brings out
a bigger.

Speaker 7 (32:10):
Part of you.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
But for me, it wasn't about control consciously as much
as it was about being cute and I and I
remember kind of realizing that and realizing that it was
a lot different for the other women in my life
who were in high control religion too, who like almost

(32:31):
every woman I know in.

Speaker 7 (32:32):
These high control religions, has an eating disorder.

Speaker 5 (32:34):
Sorry, go on, no, I was just thinking, well, that's
part of not taking it away from you. That's the
part of why I have everybody when they come in.
And by the way, I just want to say, not
to be misleading to anybody out there. I Montinito used
to be my Yes, I used to own Montanito, but
I don't anymore. So I just don't don't want people
to mistake that. But it's why I I there's I

(32:59):
have people write this thank you letter to their eating disorder,
you know, like I would have someone write a thank
you letter to what their cult did for them in
the beginning, because you you know, wanting to be cute.
There's nothing wrong with that. What there is is a
don't sell your soul for it. Don't betray your health
or sell your soul for it. And that's the thing.

(33:20):
I don't want to devalue what somebody gets from their
eating disorder. But you also mentioned something super interesting, which
is why I think parents and rightly so and partners
are afraid to put somebody in a treatment center because
if you don't have the right people running it, and
you don't have this kind of dialogue and have people

(33:42):
talking and helping each other and all that kind of stuff.
I mean, it's so tricky the treatment because then it
could be just a whole fueling you know. I always
say people with eating disorders can bring up the best
or the worst in each other, and so you have
to be very open. And you know me, I'm very
transparent and very open about what we're talking about. And

(34:03):
if somebody you know did anything or you know, got
cut purging in the other room, we just all talk
about it and what does that mean? And it was never.
It's never I'm gonna take this away from you. It's
hold up a mirror and show the person here's your life.
Do you see what I see? Would you like to
change that? And usually there's a yes, but I don't

(34:26):
know how. Yes, but I'm afraid yes, but I don't
think I can. There's a whole series of questions, you know,
asking people, I want to get better butt, And I'm
sure cold people would say this too, even when they're
thinking about leaving. I want to leave butt, and getting
all that worked out is super important.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah. I like your point about it is it is
okay to want to be cute. We all want to
be cute, and I think that, like truly, like we
all want to feel tracked if we all need human
connection and we've been told this is the way to
get human connection. And and similarly with people and cults,
like the fundamental needs that people have that get them

(35:08):
to join are totally understandable, totally human, you know, like
a desire for community, a desire for connection, a desire
costs betterment. Yeah, exactly, there's like the fundamental reason why
these things begin is generally very understandable. But the reason

(35:29):
you know when it starts to teeter into huh, while
I've cut off my family, I'm not doing my passions anymore.
You know, my quality of life, My life is very
like small and contained or or just in general, I'm
not as happy as I used to be for some reason.
That is when it's time to assess, right and be like, okay,
this maybe isn't providing all of the things that I

(35:51):
thought it was providing.

Speaker 5 (35:54):
People. Here's another thing I do. I have people. I
don't know if remember all these things, Megan. But you know,
write a good buy letter to your eating disorder. And
you write this goodbye letter, and people sometimes don't feel
prepared to do that, But what you're doing is helping
them with what would they say to this part of
themselves that really they're afraid to let go of? You know.

(36:17):
So you write the goodbye letter, but then you let
the eating disorder part of you right back. Well what
about this? And what are you going to do about that?
The reason you let it right back, and that's the thing, Well,
the reason you let it right back is so you
can see where are all the things I still need
to work on? If the eating disorder yourself writes back
and says, well, what are you going to do the

(36:38):
next time you get jealous? Or what are you going
to do the next time your self esteem suffers? Then
you go, okay, got to work on some other tools. There.
You're constantly exploring with the person. The treatment has to
be collaborative. And I'm so concerned about treatment that is

(37:00):
kind of the sort of a forced issue, forced weight
gain to a certain pounds every week. There's a lot
of that going on, and I think the problem is
you too, will relate to this a lot, since since
this is the sort of background of your podcast and everything.
When people come into treatment, they are following sort of

(37:24):
the rules of the eating disorder, like the rules of
the cult. Like I can and I ask people, what
are your rules? I have them write down their rules.
I can't eat after five o'clock at night. If I eat,
I have to run. I can't eat any desserts, so
I can't eat sugar. I haven't write down what their

(37:44):
rules are. But they're following these eating disorder rules. Then
they come into treatment and if what treatment does is okay,
now you follow all our rules. Here's our treatment rules, right,
you see what's going to happen. Then what happens is
when they discharge from treatment, they're out there in the world,
and now they don't have treatment rules anymore, they will

(38:05):
very easily slip back to eating disorder rules. What you
have to do in treatment is give the person back themselves.
Where's their value, where's their guiding star, what do they
want for their life? That's the thing about strengthening the
healthy self.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, you know, we've had cult interventionists on who've talked
about that very thing. It's like guiding somebody who is
fresh out of a high control group has to really
be centered around like their authentic self and if they
don't know, and sometimes they don't know what that authentic
self is, either because they've been in there for so
long or they just completely lost sight of it. And
but that is what you have to do, because similarly,

(38:40):
you know, there are cult intervention tactics or historically they
have been, that have not been, that have just been
kind of giving someone a new cult basically when in
reality they have to learn how to get in touch
with their own values.

Speaker 5 (38:53):
I've had a couple of discussions with people about this.
I've certainly never done a podcast about it, and never
thought about how I might to people get people out
of cults. But really I probably have a lot in
common with them because that authentic self thing is so important.
If I tell people, if I'm training a group of therapists,
and I say, there's only one thing, If there was

(39:15):
only one thing I could teach you, it would be
that concept of strengthen the person's healthy self. Connect with it.
Don't make an enemy of their eating disorder self, because
then they'll just won't talk to you. They'll just hide
and be, you know, wait till you're gone and then
come back out again and make an enemy with that part.
But strengthen the person's healthy self. That's a key and

(39:38):
show them, you know, in my book, So I have
a book called Eight Keys to Recovery from a Needing Disorder.
I have a few books, but in that book, the
eighth key. The first seven keys are what are you
recovering from? The eighth key is what are you recovering too?
And Megan will also attest to this. I mean I
would take people to the movies, I would take people

(40:01):
to place during Christmas. I would bring them to my
house and have Christmas stockings. You know, I was myself
and the staff were trying to where were you even trying?
We were living our lives with them and showing them
what a healthy, recovered life could be like. And I
also think that is really important, don't I don't feel

(40:24):
like I don't know, what do you think, Megan, I
don't feel like like I treated people like a sick person.
I would ask the sick person to the healthy person
in there.

Speaker 7 (40:35):
Yeah, I don't know. It made me cry.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Oh yeah, sorry, guys, I'm like totally losing the plot
of the interview. I think it's just like so close
to home. But Lola, your questions are perfect, so keep going.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
But I want to hear more about what you're feeling,
if that's okay, If you don't mind, of.

Speaker 5 (40:52):
Course, it's probably good because it was very touching and
you were very trapped in it, and so it makes
sense to listeners to know that it's still an emotional
thing and to have someone reach out a hand and
connect with your lovely self, you know.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm crying because I'm so grateful,
but I'm also just so sad that so many people
don't get a gift that perfect, like you really set
up the perfect exact situation that people in quolts or
eating disorders need to get out, and I was in both,

(41:31):
so it just so happened to.

Speaker 7 (41:34):
Get jolt me out of just a mind that was
so horrible.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, the rituals, just the shit I had to do
every day, it was just so awful.

Speaker 7 (41:48):
I'm sorry, guys, hold.

Speaker 5 (41:49):
On, no, that's all right, by the way, thank you.
I actually think as a culture we've lost healthy ritual
We've lost it. And you know, from drawing the Angel
cards to all the things that we would do in
our groups that were healthy.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Rituals exactly, and you know, like not everybody liked the
Angel cards. Some people like this thing and just giving
us so many options, like we're going on a walk
and the beach were even if you're miserable, when you
go at a walk for a walk, if you're not
near a beach, just a walk someplace pretty like part
of your insides are being affected, Like part of you

(42:31):
is becoming stronger when you surround yourself with strong people
who have things that you're trying to move towards.

Speaker 7 (42:38):
I don't know if that makes any sense.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Or like everyone with a share goal of being healthy yes,
and like supportive.

Speaker 5 (42:46):
And we don't. We didn't tell you what kind of
diet you had to have. I didn't even tell anybody
what their weight needed to be. You know it, Really
that takes away from it. I think I would. It
was easy for me to say, oh, you're unhealthy, you're
underweight because your body temperature is low, you're not menstruating,
your bone density is bad. There are a lot of

(43:07):
other parameters to use, but helping people again find their
own internal compass and for that, since you know, there
wasn't really any it's about there wasn't really any leader,
although of course I was the leader in the sense
that I owned the place and paid the staff and
was the clinical head. But it was about making you,

(43:29):
each person there their own leader of their life, right
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Speaker 3 (44:49):
I'm curious, Megan, and also maybe Carolyn, you have encountered this.
You know, you've talked to a bunch of people, you said,
who are coming out of a high control religion, and
so many of those people have eating disorders. Are there
any like common themes that you've heard about sort of
how that happened.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
And my personal experience. You can't gamble, you can't cheat,
you can't drink, you can't do drugs, you can't do anything,
and that like your chit just comes out in this
one area.

Speaker 7 (45:17):
That's that's what I've observed. What do you think, Carolyn, You're.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I think that's true.
I think that when you're wanting to leave a whole
set of living your life under all these rituals, it's
very easy to get pulled into another set of rituals
that you think is going to feel safe, and you
don't even recognize it right away. You're looking for safety,
you're looking for Look, the world is hard and complicated

(45:42):
and difficult to navigate. I've known people who got out
of very strict religious cults by I don't think they
realized it in the beginning, but certainly later in the
process of being trapped and trying to get out of
the eating disorder, realizing that that's one of the ways
that they got out, was having an eating disorder and

(46:03):
having to go to treatment and having to get away
from the group, and then realizing, oh my god, I
don't want to go I don't I don't want to
get better because if I get better, it means I
have to go back to this cult. I was sinning
which is fascinating, Yeah, fascinating, and then you have to
again go for well what about being independent, what about

(46:27):
having none of those what about how are you going
to so now you have this is someone who now
is in an eating disorder, in an eating disorder treatment center,
and then having to say I'm not going back to
that religious cult. And that has happened a few times,
and it has been a little scary for them because
some of the things I did, like like even doing

(46:48):
the angel cards, or I would do some chanting meditation music,
and some of the things like that would be oh,
this feels a little bit like my room cut, you know.
And I remember one time even going and getting Christmas trees,
and we brought Christmas trees in Demontanito and to my

(47:09):
house and people came over to my house and helped
me decorate my tree. I was very involved with the
clients in that sense. And this one person who had
been in this religious yeah, yeah, it was a religious
cult and saying to me, I'm nervous that that's some
kind of what is that? Why do people bring trees

(47:31):
in their house because in this religion they didn't do
that celebrate Christmas? Was that of something, and for me,
I explained to her the nature part of that, not
anything to do with Baby Jesus or Christianity, because people
have been in all kinds of cults for that. You know,
Jesus is part of it, or Jesus is not part

(47:52):
of it, you know what I mean. But I explained
to her this is an old This comes from ancient
times where people just re veered pine trees and brought
them into their house during the winter because it's the
only tree that didn't lose its leaves, and they didn't
really understand that, but they revered it and they put
candles on it where we got the lights from because

(48:14):
they were just honoring this tree, honoring nature at the
time of the winter solstice. To this day, she writes
me at Christmas and reminds me or sends me a
text or call or something that she has a whole
different relationship because that was about and a lot of
our rituals that we have that seemed to be religious

(48:35):
in nature were taken away from more like pagan time,
from early times, from ancient times that had to do
with seasons and changes and honoring things like that like
harvesting and thanksgiving, and stuff.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Like that, you know you look at like nexium or
I mean, honestly, so many of them. So many cult
leaders explicitly made their followers like count their calories, only
eat specific things like become unhealthy as a part of
the cult's rules.

Speaker 5 (49:07):
So because once you get someone to do that, and
someone has done that to themselves, they have a really
hard time justifying why they did that to themselves, unless
it was for a worthy cause. So the more you
get someone to do that, the more they feel like
they've sacrificed for this thing. That makes it even harder

(49:27):
to give up. And on the other hand, when you
really restrict someone's calories, you also can create a kind
of a OCD Like we wouldn't even deal with OCD
or OCD medications when someone first came into the clinics
because until we got them nutrition restored, we didn't know

(49:50):
how much of that obsessive compulsive behavior was based on
lack of nutrition. Because if you deprive people of nutrition,
they get a little bit o And if you're shaping
their mind at the same time they're developing OCD, you're
sort of shaping their OCD around the things you want
it to be.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Obsessive about right, right, that's crazy.

Speaker 7 (50:12):
Oh my god, that is so great.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
So you have to stabilize people, right, Like, stabilize people first,
that's the most important thing. Like get them healthy and
then then they can find their like mental health.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Right, These these cult leaders are keeping people starved up. Yeah,
good sleep, communication with people who love them. And it's like,
how I mean, eating disorders mimics so much of it,
Abusive relationships mimic so much of it, drug use mimic
so much of it.

Speaker 6 (50:41):
And it's just I.

Speaker 7 (50:44):
Have no point. It's just sad.

Speaker 5 (50:47):
There's ways that we realize that it's different because of
the internal leader. You don't have a leader. It's there's
no one to buck up against and say this man
made these people do it. There's this internal sense of responsibility.
But again that goes back to the helping people not
give away their power to not only any person, but

(51:11):
to any ideology or any philosophy or you know, to
to realize the strength they have in themselves to be
able to you know, find their way even with bumps
and grinds. And that's the thing. When people start to
get better, there is a little bit of what I
call the oh shit, now what Because when people start

(51:32):
to get better and start to give up some of
those rituals, there's a what do I replace this with?
If you were binging and purging several times a day,
or your ritual was to this is what you made
for breakfast every single day, and then you ran this
many miles, and then you counted your calories and then
you took this many laxatives or whatever your rituals were.

(51:53):
That's a lot of time in your day. Now when
you don't have that the and it's going away, Oh shit,
now what comes up? And it's like now life. But
what I would always say is go find your people,
because it's not like I grew them on trees in
the backyard. All the people that I hired, I hired
because I would sit in an interview with them and go, oh,

(52:15):
that's one of my people, and then hire them.

Speaker 8 (52:16):
You know.

Speaker 5 (52:17):
So it's go find your people because at the end
of the day, you want to be able to reach
out to people rather than any disordered behaviors or any
rituals or anything like that, any leader to get your
needs met. You want to have people in your life.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Yeah, and cult sometimes mimic having your people. Yeah, and
so I guess it's like find your people who aren't
all getting their information from one person.

Speaker 7 (52:46):
Is that a fair or one idea or one idea
one source.

Speaker 5 (52:50):
Or one idea? Yeah, that's a good one. And you're
still accepted even if you don't want to follow the
rules they follow, like a different people who are in
treatment with you, Megan, and everybody. Nobody's eating the same
I don't know anybody who's eating the same way or
doing the same exercise or so you're bonded on things

(53:10):
and not on any kind of dogma that you have
to follow.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
Are there other ways that you have encouraged people or
seen be helpful to people? Obviously finding community is so
important so that you aren't alone. But like I imagine
it's similar to how people describe coming out of a cult,
like which is what you just literally said, where they're like,
who am I now? Like? What do I do?

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Now?

Speaker 3 (53:36):
How do I find my meaning?

Speaker 6 (53:37):
Now?

Speaker 3 (53:37):
Do I find my purpose? Now? Is there anything that
you found to be helpful for people who are kind
of in that stage?

Speaker 5 (53:45):
Yeah? I think that people think they have to have
one and they've got to pick the right one, and
I remind them that when kids are growing up, they
might try soccer for a little while, and then n
ballet for a little while, and they might try painting
for a little while. People when they're older have the
sense that they got to find their it right away,

(54:05):
and life can be a series of exploring different it.
You might like hiking in nature, you might like horseback riding,
you might like just getting in a book club or
reading books on your own. What I tell them to
do is just start trying out things. Because even if
you tried a bunch of things and don't and you
become someone who's the jack of all trades and a

(54:26):
master of none, that's still a worthy life to have, you.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Know, Yeah, that's so similar. It's so similar to something
Steve Hassen called expert. Steve Hassen has that on the show,
which is like, oh yeah, yeah, when people because he
works with a lot of people who were either in
a cult for a very long time or fully grew
up in one. So we're never allowed to develop a
sense of self. So what how do you find yourself
if you've never been allowed to have one? And his

(54:52):
advice is the very same thing, try stuff, see what
makes you feel good? See what feels right for you.

Speaker 5 (54:58):
Well, and they're kind of afraid try stuff because everything
has been dictated since they've been you know, in the cold,
and so people are kind of afraid to try stuff.
But when you talk about how does a kid learn,
a kid doesn't come out knowing. You know, oh yeah,
I'm gonna be a painter unless you're most sard and
you know you want to play the piano at three

(55:19):
years old. You know, I guess that happens. But for
the most part, it's about the world itself is like
this huge playground and you don't have to master any
of it. It can be cool just trying out different
things for the longest time or forever, you know.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
And I will just add like I when I was
at Montinito, me and another girl are like, let's try
an acting class. I'd never done acting, never been allowed to,
and we had a girl on the podcast, Lola, and
I did because that acting class turned out to be
a cult Gloria.

Speaker 7 (55:53):
It's conservatory. So like you know, it can just like
life is funny, it can all go awry. It's just
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
I wasn't fully immersed, and I was fine, But I
don't know there's something in that to me of like
you join a new group and suddenly it's a call.

Speaker 8 (56:10):
I don't know for sure, it's all over right, so
you know, being aware of it, if your healthy self
is strong enough, then I do think you start to
notice and you see the people who get out and
like you said, what was that thing?

Speaker 5 (56:25):
Then went off in my mind that when I was
on my way to that Christmas party? What was it
that made my healthy self go ping? Who knows, but
I do think that it's in there, and something can
touch it, something can spark it. It comes out in
all different ways. And I'd like to think that people
who went through eating disorder treatment are a little bit

(56:47):
more aware when they at recognizing things that start to
mess with their independence, you know, mess with their ability
to feel good about themselves unless they're following some rule totally.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
And I think at the time we called it like
having Montinado eyes or like getting Montinindo ears, where suddenly things.

Speaker 7 (57:07):
Just hit you differently.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
And I'm really good friends with people that I love
and admire and they're doing nothing wrong, but they are
always like there's always a chain of like.

Speaker 7 (57:16):
Plastic surgery, like Turkish can you believe they.

Speaker 6 (57:18):
Look so good?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
And I'm just like remove, remove, like I don't like it.
It triggers something in me and I have to remove
myself from it.

Speaker 7 (57:26):
Does that make any sense?

Speaker 3 (57:27):
As in like people getting because you went through that program,
you became more awake.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
I just know myself when I'm like getting this bitch
of like, oh, I want to be perfect, I want
to get everything done to my face and body. And
I'm like, you know what, I get that, Megan, but
like no, and I just remove myself from the conversation
and people can do whatever they want.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
Yeah. I don't weigh, and I never weigh, and people
sometimes say, well, you know you should. There's a huge
movement of treatment for people in eating disorders of that
they have to get on the scale and know their weight.
And I just say why, what is the point of that.
I don't weigh and I don't feel the need to weigh.

(58:10):
And when I get into an argument with some practitioner
who thinks, well, patients are going to have to face
their weight someday, I go, really, I go to the
doctor's office and don't wigh, take my blood, take my
ur and listen to my heart. What do you need
a number to see if I'm healthy? For so? But again,
I do that because partly I do it almost as

(58:31):
my feminist eating disordered clinician statement. Now I can weigh
I was hospitalized a few years ago with a parasite,
and obviously, I mean I was in bad shape, and
they weighed me in the hospital and I was wenty
a half. Fine, go for it, you know, it's not
like I can't. But the same thing in my house.

(58:52):
You come to my house and I don't have mirrors.
I don't have long mirrors in my bedroom. I don't
have mirrors even in my guest bathroom. When people comment
and all the time and I go, I can have mirrors.
I go to hotels all the time, I travel a lot.
I just don't put them in because I don't think
I need to know every second what I look like.

Speaker 8 (59:11):
I don't.

Speaker 5 (59:11):
What's the point of that. I think we can brain
walks into thinking we need a mirror. When we go
to the movie theater, we go to the bathroom, we
wash our hands, there's a mirror. What the fuck for?
I don't no total it. Well, I have my own
personal statements that I make because I believe they they

(59:32):
I believe they're sort of the right thing to do,
but I don't like I put them on anybody else.
I think they help me.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
Yeah, I'm sure there are some people out there who
would engage in avoiding mirrors as a compulsion in itself, right,
So it's all about having that awareness. I really also
resonate with, uh, with what you're saying from just from
my own mental health stuff as well, because I think
before really getting into targeted therapy, it was really just

(01:00:00):
identifying with whatever thoughts came into my head and just
believing them and not And I didn't have that skill
of like stepping back and observing the thought in order
to respond to it differently than I would. And it
sounds like with all of this stuff, that's just like
such an important skill as like being able to step
back and observe and be like, oh I reacted that way.

(01:00:22):
That's interesting, Oh I'm having that thought, which is really
just mindfulness, you know, it's not like, yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (01:00:26):
Mean, okay, you're talking about key four in my book
Keys to Recovery from an Eating Disorder. Key four is,
you know, challenge your thoughts and feel your feelings. And
it's a lot about learning that you're the underlying, observing self.
You're not your thoughts and you're not your feelings. Those

(01:00:47):
things come and go. You're the observing self and you
can sit back and watch them passing like a cloud
and learn to respond rather than reacting to things all
the time. Yes, exactly what you said. And that's a key,
you know. When I had to write that book, it
was weird. I was asked by Norton Sens to write
that book, and my first response was eight Keys, because

(01:01:08):
they have a series of books called eight Keys to
Recovery From and then a whole bunch of stuff. So
they said, will you write the Eating Disorder one? And
I went eight keys? There's like two thousand keys to
get better? What? And I thought about and thought about it,
and ultimately I realized I could have these big categories
like thoughts and feelings. That's a big category, and so

(01:01:30):
I came up with the eight that I thought were
the most important. Nora calls them mantanita in a box,
but I put what have I used over these years,
these last like forty five years or so that I've
been helping people get better from eating disorders? And one
of them, key four is the thoughts and feelings thing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
And just like separating yourself from them and kind of
tapping into that. Y.

Speaker 5 (01:01:57):
Yeah, how do you separate yourself from your thought and
feelings because most people think they are their thoughts and.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Feelings, right, Yeah, And I think that skill is important for,
you know, coming out of a cult or high control
group when we are in that vulnerable state. You know,
we talked about cult hopping and how you can just
end up in another thing. I think that skill of
like recognizing you know, what you're thinking and what you're
feeling and why you're taking the actions that you are

(01:02:23):
is such an important skill for that as well, because
you may it may help being it may help in
being able to recognize, oh, this is this group just
providing like another form of answers, or you know, is
this am I am? I feeling overwhelmed in this group
as well and staying because it feels familiar or whatever
it may be. But just having that awareness to kind

(01:02:44):
of step back and pause and think about where you're at.

Speaker 5 (01:02:56):
Yeah. I want to talk about something we didn't talk about,
which is an uncanny experience that happened to me. I
was so I wrote this book in nineteen ninety six,
and then I wrote a new called Your Dieting Daughter,
and I wrote a new version of it, and I
think too about ten years later, two thousand and six.

(01:03:17):
And in that book, I was trying to help parents
understand this mindset, like the brainwashing that happens, the kinds
of things that go on internally. And I came up
with this thing that I took that I called the
Thin Commandments, that I took from something, you know, the
Tin Commandments, obviously, and it was things like, if you

(01:03:39):
aren't all the stuff that I had heard, all the
kind of things that I had heard people follow who
had eating disorders, if you aren't thin, you aren't attractive.
Being thins more important than anything. I'm looking at the list.
Thou shall earn all food and shall not eat without
feeling guilty. Thou shall not eat fattening food without punishing oneself. Afterwards,

(01:04:02):
they'll show count calories and fat and restrict accordingly. You
can't trust what other people say about your weight, all
these things. So I did that to help parents kind
of be able to challenge those thoughts, talk to their
daughters about those thoughts, help them kind of deconstruct these
thoughts and where's the healthy self in there? And pro

(01:04:25):
Anna websites unbeknownst to me, and somewhere around two thousand
and eight or nine, all of a sudden, I found
out that they had taken this from the book not
so No and put it on their sites. Is the
way to follow Anna, which was the you know anorexia.

(01:04:46):
Oh no, I found out about it. So I had
to ride and try to get them to get it off.
You know, first of all, this is copywritten. You can't
just take this stuff. And they printed it exactly. And
I found out from a researcher at Stanford and Needing,
the sort of researcher who was writing about it, and
then found out that she was writing about pro anasyites

(01:05:09):
talk about getting people in a cult. Whoever puts up
a pro Ana site is creating a cult. Everybody hears
that we follow And she said, then I was researching
it and I found out you wrote it. Did you
really write those? And I go, yeah, but they were
written in a book to help parents come back those ideas. Wow,
have to be careful when you are trying to talk

(01:05:33):
about these deep sort of brainwashing kind of mantras or
rules or dogmas or whatever you want to call it,
because they can easily be co opted by the exact
group and the exact thing you're trying to avoid.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Right and ironically and just interestingly, I see a lot
of girls on comments and videos just being like, oh
my god. When I was fourteen years old, I was
like the head of a pro amna, Like they kind
of become the cult leaders, these tumbler girls or you
know what I mean, And you're like, oh my god,
it is this very like fourteen year old girl mindset

(01:06:10):
and they're spreading the information and it's just it's so wild.

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
Yeah. So I mean, it's good that you're talking about
it so people can begin to question, begin to see that,
begin to see how they get co opted into that,
and ultimately, for me, the healing, and this is really
important to say, is not about I don't go into

(01:06:34):
any situation with a client and say we're going to
get rid of that part of you. What we're going
to do is get rid of those disorted thoughts, those
behaviors that that part of you thinks it has to do,
because the part is there for a reason. You needed something,
you needed something attended to, you felt unsafe, if you
felt unworthy, uncared for whatever it is, that part of

(01:06:57):
you gets to stay and we're gonna your healthy self
is gonna handle the things that come in your way.
You don't have to use that part. That's just your
alarm system. That's your radar to tell you when something
you need something, we're gonna integrate it. So integration is
my key for healing, not get rid of the eating

(01:07:18):
disorder self. We're gonna integrate it back. So you're a
whole person. Now you don't have these two kind of
split parts. One that would care of your kid, or
if you were a nanny, you would be able to
take care of a kid, and yet you can't take
care of yourself. That no longer happens. You become integrated
and whole again. And I think that's important for people
to hear.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Just bringing it back to OCD one more time, you know,
it's the fun. There's this just fundamental idea that like
trying to eliminate thoughts doesn't work. Trying to like get
rid of them or push them down or pretend they're
not there just makes them come back even stronger. So
the work is in acknowledging their existence and just like
we said, learning how to respond to them differently. And
so so I relate to so much of a you're saying,

(01:08:00):
and it sounds like such a helpful approach.

Speaker 5 (01:08:03):
For there's resistance. I think there's less resistance because so
I don't I don't go in fighting. We're going to
take that away from you. I think that just brings
up resistance and especially fear. And again, you mentioned abusive
relationship just briefly a while ago, and you know, I
have this other analogy where I have people right down.

(01:08:25):
You know, I'll get a piece of paper, write down
all the reasons someone won't leave an abusive relationship, and
you know, fear of the unknown. You know, it's after
it gets really bad, it kind of gets better. At times.
I don't think I deserve anything better. I'm afraid of
what might happen all these things. And then I just
take the heading off and put why don't you leave

(01:08:45):
your eating disorder? And there are it is so similar,
the unknown and all that stuff. So it's looking at okay.
Once you get people to realize they're kind of in
an abusive relationship with themselves, if they've taken on this
culted like way of treating themselves and in this place, again,

(01:09:08):
not a leader, but their own internalization of the thin ideal,
of the pursuit of thinness, of the need for control
or whatever, all the rituals.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah, and I think you've pointed on something very important
that kind of summarizes everything we've learned and all of
our almost two hundred episodes of doing this podcast, which
is that it's all kind of about the fear of
the unknown.

Speaker 7 (01:09:35):
You know, we're all scared. It's scary.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Life is gray, not black and white, and we get
these maladaptive tendencies sometimes to try to deal with that fear.
And the one thing that we keep consistently coming back
to as an antidote is curiosity. And you know, just
the curiosity seems to be the interesting.

Speaker 7 (01:09:57):
Step forward that is always there.

Speaker 5 (01:10:00):
Yeah, good thing, that's why we Yeah. Yeah, one thing
that I never thought of until this we were having
this conversation. I train eating disorder coaches. Now that's what
I do. And before I started training eating disorder coaches,
there weren't eating disorder coaches. Just like before I opened
residential for eating disorders, there was no residential. People had

(01:10:22):
to go to hospital like ugh, hysterial hospital. So there's
this other gap in the field, and I'm looking at it, going,
why are there sober coaches and life coaches and all
this stuff, but no eating disorder coaches. I have my
theories about why not, but part of it is people
were afraid of taking people who had recovered from an
eating disorder and giving them a position of helping others because,

(01:10:45):
as I said earlier, people with eating disorders could help
or hurt each other. But I make really sure that
they're recovered, and people if I go forward with good integrity,
I feel like I'm getting it back. And they have
to say they're recovered for at least two years, and
they go through this rigorous training program, but they are
out there. And I just realized one of the reasons

(01:11:06):
that I think my eating disorder recovery coaches are doing
so well is that they're like people who are in
the cult, and they're helping people get out of it.
And I never thought of that until now. I mean,
obviously I get and there's a lot of research on
peer support, like how helpful it is if you've gone
through something and you try to help somebody else. And

(01:11:29):
when I first was out about my own eating disorder.
A lot of clinicians told me you shouldn't tell people
you're recovered. And again we're going back like forty years,
you shouldn't tell people you had meaning. So I'm like,
why not no, because you're supposed to be a blank
slate as a therapist and all of a sud you know,
you just don't self disclose that much. But I thought

(01:11:49):
that's really stupid. I mean, why would I not tell them?
And my first international talk, people came up to me
and were like, well, I never met anybody who's recovered.
And I go, how we to be in a field
and you're treating people for an illness that you've never
met anybody who recovered from it? Just was weird. Yeah,
how I realize all these people who are in any

(01:12:12):
disorders were If we use the definition that we're using today,
that you know, follow me senter principles, the moral code,
holding to certain ideals. You're either in or you're out.
There's definitely rules to follow all that stuff. If we
use that, then these people, these recovered people who are
now out there as coaches, were in it and they're

(01:12:35):
in a prime position to help people go. Yeah. I
was there too. I was there for reasons. I get
while you're in it, I don't have any judgment about
you being in it, and if I got out, so
can you. And I just realized that's kind of a
cool thing.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Oh my god, I feel like we just covered one
of the most interesting topics and my opinion, so I'm
very satisfied. It was really helpful for people in the
two y two group that I grew up in when
we started to support group where people who had left
could help people who were leaving, and so that's one
kind of really mass like well, you know, more people

(01:13:16):
started to trickle out. So yeah, always always finding people
that have gone before you.

Speaker 5 (01:13:21):
It's hard to explain when when you have a good
sense of yourself, you know, like why did I ever
get involved in that? How did I ever get involved
in that? Why did I even believe that? Even for
myself right now, so many years of anorexia, it's hard
for me to think about. I can remember it, but
it's hard for me to think about why did I
think that was a good thing?

Speaker 7 (01:13:42):
You know, right?

Speaker 5 (01:13:43):
And so I think it's kind of it's hopeful, there's motivation,
it can be inspiring it's shame abatement for sure, to
have somebody who's been in it, sort of like in
the twelve Step, Been there, Done that, they say that
all time, you know, been there, done that. This is
a little harder though, because with drugs and alcohol you

(01:14:04):
just stop and you get them out of your life.
You can't do that with food, and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
You can't do that with meaning, which cults give you right,
you need meaning, you need food, So it's like totally,
it's a whole different yeah, set of stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:14:17):
Well, thanks for having me on I As you can see,
I was excited to be here because I think this
is what I was meant to do on this planet.
There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 8 (01:14:26):
I know.

Speaker 5 (01:14:27):
It's it's just my dharma. That's what I'll say.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
Where can people find your books or your work?

Speaker 5 (01:14:35):
I mean, you can easily go into bookstores and still
find them. You can get them on Amazon, you can
go to the booksellers like I mean, any bookstores like
Barnes and Noble and stuff usually have them, or if
they don't have them, they'll order them. But often especially
the Eight Keys is pretty available. That's one of the
most recent ones. But people can always go on my

(01:14:58):
website Carolyncostin dot com and the books are on there
and you can buy the books on there. You can
see all about coaching on there and how I trained
coaches to do this work that we were talking about
de brainwashing, you know, decoding.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Well, thank you so much for joining us so.

Speaker 5 (01:15:14):
Much, Carolyn, Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
Thanks to Carolyn for coming on today. Megan, this is
obviously a particular special episode for you. So what are
some of your takeaways from this discussion?

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
All of it, but in particular, just how cruel our
mind becomes when it's scared, and how it can turn
against itself in a way that feels safer to you,
but it's actually so dangerous and just that weird dichotomy
that humans hold.

Speaker 3 (01:15:50):
Yeah, it's like we can either turn against someone on
the outside or we can turn against ourselves. And either
way it feels like, Yeah, you like, in order to
protect yourself, you gotta defend against something or something.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Yeah, And I feel like and cults in particular, you know,
the leader is not nice, right, and we keep coming back.

Speaker 7 (01:16:14):
You know, these.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Trauma bonds with ourselves or with a leaders, it's a
it's a safer feeling bond that people are able to
risk more for.

Speaker 7 (01:16:24):
And it's so odd, it seems so counterintuitive.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
I mean, obviously in cults the leader like tricks people
over time by seeming sure, seeming really safe at first.
But yeah, it's like that flooding with like such ecstasy
and such a charged emotional experience that can actually be
the red flag that means later on you will be true.

Speaker 6 (01:16:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
I keep thinking of my cult where there was no
there was none of that, but there was a very
like fear based culture that made me feel safer than
when I tried to to toe out of it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Well, you know, you know, it's interesting just to draw
one more parallel, Like, you know, we've talked to experts
on conspiracy theorists, and we've talked to former conspiracy theorists,
and what they'll kind of say is like, yeah, it
made me feel like it could make sense of the world,
or it made it makes people feel like they can
make sense of the world. They have some kind of

(01:17:21):
structure answer or like feeling a specialness, except that it
gets taken to an extreme and then suddenly they are
just living in fear all the time, which is not
a safe right, healthy place to be living and which
actually makes us you know, it's very disruptive and it's
very dysregulating, but it's like it can be so hard
to see where that line is because it feels like

(01:17:42):
it's helping at first, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:44):
Totally, and you get so much positive reinforcement sometimes from it,
like I say, right did after becoming a little bit
chubby in eighth grade and then suddenly not being chubby anymore.
It was a huge jump in my experience of life.
So right, you know, it's all it's all in these

(01:18:06):
wicked little systems that our brains somehow respond to.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
Yeah. Yeah, but that's why we talk about it and
try to make sense of it all.

Speaker 6 (01:18:19):
Yes, that is why we do this.

Speaker 7 (01:18:21):
Thank you for reminding me.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Well, Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
We hope to see you again here next week and
as always, remember to.

Speaker 7 (01:18:32):
Follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me is produced
by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

Speaker 4 (01:18:47):
The special thanks to Stacy Para, and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult pod or on TikTok At
trust Me Cult Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.

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Carolyn Costin - The Link Between Cults and Eating Disorders

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Carolyn Costin - The Link Between Cults and Eating Disorders