Megan Elizabeth Cox - The Remnant Fellowship, Gwen Shamblin, and the Worship of Skinny - Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me? Do you trust me?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Right? Everly you wish to writ tr us.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
This is the truth, the only truth.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
and manipulation from two control freaks who've actually experienced it firsthand.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
My name is low La Blanc.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
And I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our guest is Megan
Elizabeth Cox different Megan Elizabeth, former member of the Remnant
Fellowship and The Way Down Workshop, whom you may have
seen on the HBO docuseries The Way Down. Today, she
is going to talk to us about how her mother
joined Gwen Chamblain's Weight Loss Workshop through tapes in the
nineties and era obsessed with skinniness, How being skinny was

(00:45):
equated with being righteous and even the slightest overeating was
considered a distraction from God, What it was like actually
meeting Gwen Chamblain, and how the program evolved into a
full fledged church That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Megan will tell us about the level of control the
church had over its members eating and even their thoughts.
Being forced a weigh herself during Bible study sessions, how
she drifted in and out of the church during dark
times in her life, and what made her finally realize
she needed to leave the group for good.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
We've been wanting to talk to somebody who experienced Qwinn
Chamblain in the flesh for a long time, and I'm
so glad she came on to talk to us about it,
because what a time, what a group. Before we get
into it, Megan, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, okay, this topic brought up in me a question
that I haven't asked you yet, But my cultiest thing
is going to be a question for you. Oh okay,
ozombic Okay. It is now taking away the morality of
Thinness that we've all projected. Yes, Gwen took it to
the extreme right, but everyone in America kind of did

(01:52):
and in the world. Yeah, yeah, Now that it's not
really a quote unquote discipline thing anymore, what is happening
to the cult of them? And what are we gonna
see morally? I'm assuming we'll just see a lot more
thun people. But what will the moral judgments about Thinness

(02:13):
evolve into when it no longer requires any discipline?

Speaker 3 (02:18):
That is such a good question, my question. That's interesting,
Thank you. Well, what comes up for me is how
the skinny obsession was really a ninety thing and then
that evolved into this like still skinny, but like have
a huge thick ass and tits part of my language,
but like ass and tits first three minutes and that's

(02:42):
like the sex so aspirational body type. You know, Historically
in different eras and cultures, like you know, the wealthy
were bigger because they were able to eat, unlike the peasants.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
So that was the beauty the beauty standard. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
So it makes me think that while there has been
some resurgence of sort of heroin chic, you know, being
the look again, it makes me wonder if that will
evolve again and become something else.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think it just mays so keep your eyes on it.
It's a culty little live phenomena to watch. It's like diamonds.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
I don't know why it makes me think of diamonds, Like,
we don't analogy is it. It feel like it's a
really bad amouny. It's just like we pick something random
and said this is super valuable because it seems hard
or same thing.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Now they're making them in labs, right, Diamonds and people
are like, that's not a really.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
I don't care about that. We want someone to have
died for this. What's your cultiest thing of the week, Lila,
So do you remember the social media cult eater whose
name I don't actually know how to pronounce, but I'm
pretty sure you made it up anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Benton home a sorrow?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, And how he had those videos of him that
he would post on Instagram of him just staring into
camera for uncomfortably long amounts of time, and the idea
is that he's connecting with you, but it's fucking creepy.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
There are these Geico.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Commercials right now, Oh my god, where the Geico get
goo is just staring at you, and I low key
I'm like, I feel connected to him.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
No, this is so nice. He's looking at me.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
Obviously I don't actually feel this way, but like a
little tiny part of me is like, that's sweet. You know,
he's Look what is it about even fake cartoon character
or real person prolonged eye contact that like feels something.
I mean, it's obviously meant to be kind of funny,
but I wonder if they tested that commercial and we're like, yeah,
eye contact, like they really feel connected with the.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Characters are completely lacking in any connection and warmth. Let's
just make the guy go stare at them and like, yeah,
we're social creatures. I might need connection, and I can
connect as one of them. And collators are so smart
they know to just like, do I contact.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Just to make you feel seely scene, yeah, really see it.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
It's so easy. Wants you like, are a psychopath enough
to want to exploit it? Right?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Right?

Speaker 3 (05:10):
And it makes me think of my friend Steve Burns.
He was the original Steve from Blues Clues, yes, and
how he posts now on TikTok. His thing is he's
like still being Steve from Blues Clues, except it's for
millennials and he's like, how is your day? And it's
very sweet and it's very wholesome, and he's a very
wholesome person. People love it and they're like I needed this,
I needed this, thank you, Like they feel so connected

(05:32):
to him, right, we're just so starved. Yeah, which we'll
talk about this in other episodes, but AI fertile ground,
very fertile ground.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Remember, don't talk to anyone. You'll join Nicole.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
That also need connection, We need connected I don't know
what the answer is, just no, one leave their house.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
No, but then they're going to talk to the AI people.
Oh my god. No, the answer is leave your house,
but just leave it.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
But what have to do?

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Multiple things? I've lost the plot.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Okay, should we talk to Mecan Elizabeth. Let's do it
before we get into it. For listeners who haven't seen
The Way Down or haven't seen it in a minute
as a refresher. Gwen Chamblin was a church leader often
considered cult leader, who led the church the Remnant Fellowship
as well as The Way Down Workshop, both of which
preached being skinny as godly.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
She had very high hair.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
In addition to its wild teachings marketing eating disorders as virtuous,
the group is notorious for encouraging the physical punishment of children.
The church was raided by authorities in two thousand and
three when an eight year old child named Joseph Smith
was physically abused by his parents to death after being
encouraged by Gwen and her husband Joe Shamblin to use
corporal punishment, including hitting children with gloustics. The church publicly

(06:53):
supported and paid for the legal defense of the parents
who were convicted of child abuse and murder. So that's
the context we've never had on a guest who was
actually in the group and experienced the highly controlled teachings.
So today's guest is going to tell us about her
experience being a young person in the group and constantly
being told that she was not skinny enough.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
And before we get into it, this episode does contain
descriptions of eating disorders and domestic violence, so make sure
to take care while listening.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Welcome to Trust Me, Meg and Elizabeth Cox, thank you
so much for joining us.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
So we found you because you were on the documentary
series The Way Down, which is about Gwen Chamblin, the
Way Down Workshop and the Remnant Fellowship. And for those
who might not remember who Gwen Chamblin is, she's the
lady with a very very high blonde hair encouraging people
to starve themselves. So can you start us kind of
at the beginning of your experience with The Way Down.

(07:58):
How old were you when your mom started doing this program.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
I was twelve twelve years old when mom found Weight
On Workshop. I don't remember exactly how she found it.
I just know that we did a lot of courses
in the church across the street, which was a Baptist church,
and then with a group of women that mom had
come to know in the area that we lived in,
which was like an hour north of Columbus. We did
courses all the time. Her tapes, cassette tapes were always

(08:25):
playing all the time. Everything we did, it was about
Gwen Chamblin. You know, because of that, my mom was
able to quit smoking. We all followed criteria, the curriculum
that Gwen laid out for, you know, if you wanted
to lose weight and turn your strength any relationship with God.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
So it wasn't the Remnant Fellowship yet, but it was
taking place in a church already.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
H yes, yeah, they were taking place in church.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
What happened was she came out with a controversial take
on the Trinity, and she was booted out of a
lot of I think all the churches, really, I don't
remember exactly what she said. I just know it was
very offensive to a lot of churches. And so then
it became like in homes. So it wasn't was in churches,
and then it was in homes.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Interesting and your mom, you know, in the nineties, people
were obsessed with being skinny.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Everyone was on a diet.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
My mom was in the beauty pageants circuit and like,
you know, same thing, just like this obsession, not from Harvard,
just like her community, like you have to be a
certain level of skinny totally and even like weight watchers
meetings I believe were like some.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Of the Midwest were in churches. Were they really like
a basement of a church. I don't think it was
necessarily connected, but they were letting them host them there.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
I cannot imagine a church like how that intersects with
religion is so mysterious to me. I mean, obviously Gwen
Chamblain drew a very direct connection for herself.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
But yes, the bestseller, so yeah, yeah, yeah, it was
very prevalent.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Were you participating at twelve years old in way down workshop?

Speaker 4 (09:57):
Yes, I don't want to say forced to do it,
but you know, voluntold.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
I guess it's like advertently and advertantly.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
So before we really started doing it as a family,
you know, I mean, Mom had it playing all the time.
It was on constantly, so we couldn't help but listen
to what she was saying. Like I still remember to
this day, and this is the first time I ever
like mentioned it, but it's at least once a day
it pops up in my head. There was this really
cute older woman giving her testimony in one of the

(10:24):
videos and she goes, I was killing time to kill myself.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
That'll stick with you.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, you know when I was little, I was like, wow,
that's terrible. Like I never I never had a grasp
on that, but it just I never forgot it, you know.
And we would you know, joke like take little jokes
like how Gwen and David Martin would eat in the videos,
Like we would play around at the dinner table eating
like that.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
And you know.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
So it was very prevalent, uh in my childhood, whether
or not I wanted it to be, it was there
all the time.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Did your family and did your mom consider it to
be a religious activity at that time or it was
just this is our like diet and lifestyle.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
I would say it was it was more a religious activity.
It was well, obviously no one wants to be fat,
and especially back then in like the mid nineties, I
was about, oh gosh, like very young then, but I
hate dating myself like that, but.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
I mean same same generation.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
Yeah, being skinny was everything. So that was obviously the goal.
But you know my mom, she has her own issues
and she found a lot of healing and in hope
from all of that, So I think it became more
of a religious thing to her. I even suspect she
might have looked at Gwen as a mother figure because

(11:42):
she really didn't have one. I remember being a freshman
in high school and we took a trip down to
Brentwood and we saw the weight On workshop and everything,
and Mom was talking about moving down there then. And
that was before remnant even happened. And this is Brentwood, Tennis, Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Sorry Brentwood, No, no, I just have one question before
we get into that. But what was the way that
she was phrasing things on these tapes that kind of
married Like how was Gwen marrying weight and religion?

Speaker 4 (12:12):
So Gwen would say overeating you were worshiping the food.
So she talked about how the Israelites had wandered the
desert for forty years and rely on God for everything,
even food. She equated like she used that story and
how they built the Golden Idol out of you know,
all their jewelry and everything, and you being overweight and overeating,

(12:33):
you are the Israelites worshiping that golden idol? And God
had said no idols. Basically, you can't worship anything over him.
So that's how it started. And then you know a
lot of bound down to the refrigerator, and you know,
when you want to overeat, cry out to God and say, God,
help me, help me not want to overeat, or help
me not want to take this extra bite? You know,
I want to I want to be closer to you.

(12:55):
There was a lot, a lot of that. So she
would she had a lot of videos. She would teach
you how to cut your food in half and you'd
pray before, be very slow, small bites, and pray between
each bite. You know.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
It was Oh so it was Jesus coded, like yeah,
shanity coded.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
From the beginning, it sounds like it was also in
that genre of like God is a jealous God and
he is jealous.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, yeah, she said that all the time. God is
a jealous God.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
He wants your love and he'll fight for your love.
Your body's a temple. God gave it to you and
you only have one, so take care of it and
don't be greedy. You know, being overweighted is a very
clear symbol of greed on your body basically, and that's
you know, God.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
I think it's one of the teen connatments.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
So God should learn to stopping the center of attention
all the time. God right got an attention one of
my best friends group of Jehovah's Witness, and they would
use really similar language just in terms of like things
being a distraction from God. But for them it would
be like holidays, or like voting, or like sports, like
they made him quit sports, eating food, like enjoying food

(13:57):
seems like such a strange thing to focus on as
the distraction from God. Were there other activities or things
that were considered to be distractions from God? H?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (14:08):
So, like I had mentioned before, you know, my mom
had quit smoking using the tenants of the program. My
mom had also said that it helped relieve her of depression.
A lot of people were saying that they became better
wives and husbands and you know, better children, you know,
just by applying the tenets of the program to whatever

(14:28):
their issue may be.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
Right, I'm curious how they would apply because like some
of those details of like eating slower, praying between bites, like,
how would that apply to something like being a good wife.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
I don't know how it eventually morphed into that, but
you know you're happier because you've lost weight, and then
you know, focusing on your relationship with God, you see
cracks in other areas in your life. You know, the
husband's the figurehead, and you know, how can you be
better for him?

Speaker 1 (14:54):
You know that's showing how you honor God.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
And I'm just like pointing it out. I mean, at
this point, you now have an eating disorder, so you
do probably feel more controlled. You do probably feel like
a little bit more stable and like things are probably.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Because it works at first. It works at first, and
that's the problem, at least to make you feel but yes,
I'm not saying it works.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
It works for your brain to kind of organize.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we've talked about that a little
bit on this podcast. How sometimes you know, we all
have this need to feel.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Like we have what's the word that I want? Control?

Speaker 3 (15:30):
It was another one, but sure, uh, agency, agency and
control over our lives. And how one of the areas
we can see overlapping with people who've maybe lost agency
after joining a cult or something. It can show up
in the form of an eating disorder because it can
provide that like temporary hit, like I'm in control of something.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
I can see that totally.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, seeing tangible results. It's it's very easy.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right, if I do X thing, I'll see why.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
And then you're more susceptible to being under the control
of somebody like your husband, because you're.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Because you're hungry and you're thinking correctly. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
I was reading the article that you wrote for Spirit Watch.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry you read the whole thing. No,
it's great, it's great. There's I was.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
I appreciated how much detail was in there, but you
wrote about some of the specific stuff.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
You said, the best part was.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
That we could eat whatever we wanted, but we had
to wait until our stomach growled physically, and we had
to cut our food in half. We would box up
or put away the leftovers so we wouldn't be tempted
to eat all of it. It's just like the level
of control over your diet every day.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
How did that feel as a child?

Speaker 4 (17:02):
Well, I might be an exception to the rule because
I was pretty well used to this behavior before. Way
down my dad's stepmom were very controlling with how much
food I ate. So for me, it just it felt normal, right,
and it's like, you know, I hope that makes sense,
but I can't speak for other people. I'm sure thinking

(17:22):
about it now, it feels like an incredible chore, Like
you you have to really think about every action that
you take.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
You know, you have to cut your food in half,
You've got to put.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
It away, you know, you've got to It's just it's
a lot, it's a it's labor intensive essentially, especially some
people can't help, you know, or like you can't even
like you couldn't even think about food like that was
a bad. That was bad to even think about food
or chewing gumb in between, you know. Yeah, so it
was very labor intensive.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
I was just gonna say, like not, I don't want
to label everything, but it feels like OCD, like you're
making people have those almost.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, becoming obsessed with whether they had an incorrect thought,
which would be a food thought Like that.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Totally right makes sense to me.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
It's it's really hard because like how do you not
think I don't know that reality, Like how do you
not think about it?

Speaker 3 (18:16):
Also, like we've talked about it a million times, but
trying not to have a thought is not a strategy.
It makes the thought come back more. That's not why
it works. Don't think about the pink elephant in the
room that you really don't want to think about that
pink elephant. So for your experience, you had already kind
of been in a family that was encouraging this kind
of highly controlled diet behavior, and yeah, when you've been

(18:40):
in something like that, of course it would just feel
normal to you.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
But did you like the program? Did you feel connected
to it?

Speaker 4 (18:50):
I liked being skinny, I liked being my mom happy.
That was good, you know. But I've said it before,
I just have always had a really hard time dang,
like I get it, Like I can see how it
really helps, like Christianity in general, how it really helps people.
And I just I kind of got along to get along,
you know, like it kind of made sense. But you know,

(19:12):
eventually I'd be like, this doesn't make sense, you know it.
I feel weird, I feel awkward. It doesn't really fully
resonate with me. I really haven't found any kind of
religion that fully resonates, honestly, And that's okay, you know,
but never really ever bought in. There was always something
that would pull me out of, you know, whatever hyper

(19:35):
fixation I was in.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
I guess we could say, right, so makes sense.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Can you tell us about the conference where you first
met Gwenn Chamblain. Do you remember meeting her and what
that was like?

Speaker 4 (19:47):
Yeah, so, oh gosh, we I remember it was a
super huge, big deal. We traveled down to Nashville too,
and Gwen was really accessible back then. It was very astounding,
you know, and I remember just the big conference. I
don't think the conference room that we were in. It
was in the Nashville I can't remember the name of it,
but it was downtown and it was overwhelming, but in

(20:11):
a good way. There was just a lot of people
there that you knew had also gone through this program
and found you know, their joy and you know, their
relationship with God and the program. And then like I said,
Gwen being so accessible and so warm and friendly, and
then getting to meet Michael too. He was just I
think the conference we went to, he had just launched
his music as well, so you know that was probably

(20:34):
the biggest you know, like she was like a celebrity
to me. We've only been around the TV and I
was like, wow.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
It reminds me of like a Bravo celebrity.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yes, you know what I mean, that's the context that
I see again, and like waiting in line to get
your book signed or something is how I am.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
That's basically kind of how it is.

Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, It's like, for the amount of people that were there,
it was really astounding that we could, you know, get
close to her and talk to her, and that she
was able to exude like genuine happiness and enjoy you know,
at least, I mean, she fooled me, so she is.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah, you guys gonna ask, did did you feel that
charisma from her?

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, absolutely right from the beginning.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
And again, like I don't know if you know, we
had this woman on a pedestal because you know, I
saw what she did for my mom and she was
always you know, in our lives, you know, for years
at this point, so she's she felt very like a
very familiar person. But yet like you know, she's done
all these amazing things, like she used to be fat
and now she's thin, and look what she's doing right right.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
I obviously was not a part of this particular workshop,
but my mom had a lot of nineties self help
tapes and I would have flipped my ship if I
had gotten to meet any of those gurus in person. Also,
we were listening to we were listening to tapes on
how to become a ventriloquist in the car, and it
was the same thing where there were always these tapes

(21:55):
playing about how to become a ventriloquist. And that is
how I learned to do ventriloquism. And then went to
the Ventriloquist convention.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, well, why.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Some of the ventriloquist that I had seen like on
VHS tapes and like heard on cassettes and it was
really exciting.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
So anyway, what I'm saying is I really.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
To you, Yeah, that would have that would have been exciting.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Why could my mom do something like ventrali Quist?

Speaker 2 (22:16):
You know?

Speaker 1 (22:17):
That would have been really fun.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
It had its own it had its own dramas and
the ventriloquism.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah truly, Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Okay, so when did it become an actual church that
your family became a part of.

Speaker 4 (22:36):
So it remnant started in nineteen ninety nine, but it
didn't appear like my mom didn't find out about it
till like two thousand, two thousand, two thousand and one,
two thousand and two. I can't remember when the South Bend,
Indiana tour staff was her rebuilding the Wall tour where
she was going out and like the Desert Oasis she

(22:57):
was going out and like talking about how she's starting
this new church, she's starting Remnant Fellowship because she's noticed
and in the church, and you know, the pastors are
leading the flock astray. And I wasn't living with my
mom at the time. She had went to that conference.
She went with what eventually became the Satellite Group, the

(23:17):
Satellite Remnant Group of Mary in Ohio. The women too
that went, the families that went, we also had gone
to church with them and did weigh on everything with them.
So I was living with my dad up here where
I live now, and that was miserable.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
I was.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
I was a really lost teenager. I was really rebellious.
If they told me not to do something, I did it.
And then some I just wanted to do what I
wanted to do. I feel like a typical teenager. But
you know, there was a lot of trauma attached to it,
so it might have made it worse, but I don't know.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
I think it was around Easter.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
I finally decided that I had enough of living with
my dad and stepmom. My dad was an alcoholic at
the time, and it was just at miserable. It was
misery every day, and I really hadn't had much to
do with them since I was twelve as it were,
so it was I don't know. I just couldn't take
it anymore. So when Mom came and got me, she said, well,
this is how it's going to be. Now. We're in

(24:14):
this new church, Remnant Fellowship, and you can't drink, you
can't smoke, you can't date, basically a lot of lists
of you can't And I agreed to it because I
couldn't live. How old were you I was eighteen. I
couldn't live where. I couldn't live with my dad and
sum anymore. It was miserable.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
I hated it. I was lonely. It was my senior year.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
I didn't have I met people, I made friends, but
it wasn't like where I grew up. So I moved
back in and then immediately we started attending the little
church group in Sue Ruth's garage, and Marian and I
hated it.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Sue Ruth, that's a name I can see this.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
There was something very comforting about those Midwestern eating disorder
clubs that I kept going to and wait watchers, like,
I don't know, I missed those sometimes there was a
sense of control there. I don't know how to go,
I mean.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
And also, it is a community.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
We are describing a community, whatever form it is, whether
it's healthy or not. When there's a group of people
with a shared goal and you know, shared lens that
they're looking through, like, of course you're going to feel
connected to those people. So you didn't even It's not
like you were like, I'm going to join remnant Fellowship.
You were just like, I got to get out of here,
and this is what is required of me.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (25:27):
Yeah, it was my only other option essentially, well not essentially,
it was it was my only other option. So it
was either choose to stay miserable or you know, I guess,
choose another type of misery. I didn't know I was
walking into. Yeah, I was desperate. I needed to change.
I wasn't there for long. I moved out, Oh gosh,

(25:48):
So I think it was like April twenty, two thousand
and two, and then about June two thousand and two,
I had moved out with a boy that I had
been sneaking out to see.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
I was bad, I will admit it.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
But it was hard because I couldn't even like associate
with my friends going back either, Like I had to
basically cut everyone and everything off.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
So what did it look like? What was the weekly
regiment of being a member of this church?

Speaker 4 (26:15):
So I had to complete adhere to everything my mom
and stepdad said. Whatever they said, I had to say,
you know, I had to do it completely, submit, and
I had to read the Bible. We had to do
a lot of things that back then. It was phone
calls on a like this weird conference thing. I was
in school, So we did that on Sundays. I can't

(26:38):
remember if there was. I'm sure there's probably midweek you know,
calls or touch ins. Theres Bible studies. I vaguely remember,
but I know that there was Every Sunday we got
together in that garage and we listened to Gwen talk.
She just did conference calls at that time. Oh yeah,
it's so nineties. It's also very nineties it is.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
I mean we're in the early two thousands, but still
it was so very dated.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
And what were you guys weighing in what was that
process like, Like, how did you determine if you were
Because to lose weight was to be right with God,
and to gain weight it was to be sinning. Am
I surmising that correctly?

Speaker 4 (27:16):
No, that is absolutely correct. It was always about your right.
It was always about the weight first and foremost, and
and you dove into everything else. But I can't remember
if I was over I don't think I was overweight
at that first time. I think I was, so I
don't really remember being I weighed in around that time.
I'm sure I was. I'm sure you know that was

(27:38):
always monitored, you know. I remember even before remnant happened,
like getting on the scale in the morning and kind
of you know, logging and clogging you know what, and
doing it at night like watching it that way, very obsessive.
But the second time, like coming back because I didn't
have a job, and I think I was like night team.

(28:00):
I would do the weekly Bible studies with the women
and we would all, you know, weigh in together. I
remember weighing in in front of like Karen Sims and
Sue Ruth and all those women and just feeling humiliated.
It's very humiliating to be scrutinized like that. It's it's hard,
you know, because, like I said, no one wants to
be fat, no one. No one wants to struggle with anything,
you know. We all want to be our best versions

(28:22):
of ourselves.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
Well, and especially in an environment where you're literally being
told there's something wrong with you and you're bad and
sinning if the number is higher than they decided.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, and that's what I guess I'm getting out, Like,
is there a certain number that once you reach your
like enlightened, so to speak, you're good now?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
No, there was never There was no limit.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
So Surou's daughter moved down to Nashville, and she was
thin to me, I thought, And when she moved down there,
she lost more weight. So then it was being reported
back that in Nashville they were cutting their half in half.
So like they would have half a bagel, they'd take
that one half of the bagel and cut that in half.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Oh yeah, my god. So it became even more extreme. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
If you know, you guys were away in or at
church or whatever like, and the number was wrong, Like,
what then would happen in the group. Would there be
discussion about the number being too high or like, what
was the next thing that would happen?

Speaker 4 (29:24):
Yes, So one time I vividly remember, I think it
was at that same Bible study where I was waiting,
like I was still like very fresh into coming back
after the first run through, and I was pretty chubby
back then, and I remember getting on the scale. I
don't remember what it was, but it was it was
must have been. You know, it's so funny. I always

(29:45):
come back around Easter at Remnant. I noticed it because
the second time I came back, it was around like
Easter aka Passover. They celebrated Passover, so we knew there
was fasting a lot of people were fasting for Passover,
and you know, the women decided that that's what we
were going to do. And they said, well, how long
does you know God want you to fast?

Speaker 1 (30:05):
That's what it was.

Speaker 4 (30:06):
How long does God want you to fast? And I said, well,
the number nine keeps coming to mind, so nine days,
and I ate nothing for nine days, all to be
you know, right with God and to not be carrying
this extra weight. And I remember like speaking a little
bit of v juice and feeling so guilty and feeling

(30:26):
that I've failed because I was so.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
I don't know. If you guys have done that, I
wouldn't recommend it.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
It was awful. I felt so ill, but I came
out the other side and I did it. I will
never do it again.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
No, I have never done that. If the number nine
came to my had, i'd be like nine minutes.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
So I worked very hard not to be in that
position because I don't like being in trouble. I don't
like feeling like I've disappointed someone or let someone down.
So I worked really hard to always be on everyone's
good side basically. But I there would just be like
a scrutinizing of your routines and your habits and what

(31:04):
are you doing? You know, how what are you eating?
How much are you eating? You know, are you're really
paying attention to it? If you're consistent with, you know,
not losing the weight they think you should, which again
it's arbitrary. It's just numbers they could make up, or
that you could say, well, I think I want to
lose you know, ten pounds in a month or something.
You know, it's there's no science to it or regimen,

(31:28):
I guess, just other than you need to you know,
eat the way when's telling you to eat.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Right, because she was kind of saying like, you can
eat whatever you want because like we're now connected to
God and he is it like he'll help us metabolize it.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
Differently, is that her promise? Her thing was that no
foods were unclean. So a lot of you know, diets,
especially back in the you know, nineties, early two thousands,
there's a lot of fat free you know, like snack wells,
you know, one hundred calories stuff, you know, everything was
fat free and you know, car free and couldn't do
this on this diet or bad on that diet.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
And she was basic the thing, you can lose weight
if you eat all those things. You don't need diet food.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
You guys need to eat way less of it. You
just need to cut it in half or and God
will help you do that. Yeah, right, you just have
to pressure. I mean, she's not wrong entirely, it's just yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Well, sure if you limit your caloric intake.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
And that's where she started to get to lose so
really trouble where she would compare it to kind of
like the Holocaust, I believe where she was Wait, what
was that again?

Speaker 4 (32:31):
She you go, Megan, please, she i don't remember this interview,
but I did see it because I someone had mentioned
it and it kept getting mentioned. I'm like, I got
to see this clip because I don't remember it, and
I pulled it up and she said, well, you know,
the Jews were skinny during the Holocaust, like she was
being interviewed by Larry King and reference just drop my job,

(32:53):
like lady.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
And she was saying, like that's a sign of like virtue.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Well, she's saying like, yeah, if you if you eat less,
you're gonna you're gonna lose weight.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Like eight last.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
She had the Larry King interview playing on a loop
in her office.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Correct, yeah, oh yeah, all of our interviews.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, so this message is not only wild, but it's
just being repeated and.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Repeated and repeated.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
Well, and that's got to make people feel like I'm
only good if I'm not just like thin but like starving.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah yeah, like skin and bones. Yeah yeah, basically, so
my collar bones were sticking out, my hip bones were
sticking out, and they still looked at me and the
Sioux Ruth again and Karen sim still said, well, how
much more.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Weight do you have to lose?

Speaker 4 (33:47):
And I was like, I don't know how much more
I can lose. Yeah, this is the thinness I've been
in my entire life. I'm a naturally big breasted woman
and I only lost a cup size and you know,
my well, your boobs are still big, and I'm like,
I don't think they're going to go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
What's wrong with that?

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Well, I imagine what's wrong with that is that men
were coveting after you.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Well, I mean probably I wasn't allowed to being in remnant,
Like you had to cover all that up, Like you
couldn't be flashy, like, so your here had to be
natural colors, you know, no piercings, no visible tattoos, if
you can help it. I always had shirts that very
well covered any cleavage. It was really tough back then

(34:31):
to have taps long enough to cover the stomach.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Area right right right. That fashion didn't exist back then.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
Yeah, because I have tattoos on my mid section and
on my back, and you know, you couldn't show that,
and you know that a lot of people think that's
too sexy. So there was a lot of modest you know,
it was kind of like Christian fundamentalism. Yeah, you know,
I relate to a lot of Christian fundamentalists to like
what they've gone through. I'm like, oh, that was a

(35:00):
lot like how remnant was as well. You couldn't make
your brother in Christ stumble, so you know, you had
to be very near and mindful.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
They told they, they told us that in Mormonism too,
we had to keep our I think they've relaxed some
of the rules since I was growing up, But when
I was growing up, you couldn't show your shoulders at all.
You couldn't wear any sleepless shirts obviously, could not show
your midriff in any way, and skirts had you know,
knee length and lower was ideal because if it didn't

(35:28):
meet those standards. Well, one, when you went through the
temple and got your temple garments, of course your temple
garments shouldn't be able to show. But the other thing
is that you can't tempt men, because men can be
tempted if you dare show a shoulder, and of course
the implication.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yeah yeah, or an ankle, and then.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah yeah, and you're in her group, Yeah I am.
I mean, yeah, we like, listen, we're we're tempting creatures
and men can't help themselves.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
So no, yeah, that's terrible.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, yeah, what were some of the other kind of
tenets like that that didn't directly relate to the weight loss,
But we're just like more of the religious beliefs.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
The line of authority, So anyone older than you was,
you know, an authority figure.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
So if they told you something, you had to listen.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Which is why your mom was in charge of your
life even though you were over eighteen.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yes, so if you're if you're an adult and an
adult is older than you, that adult is your authority.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
You got it. Yep, it's insane, you know. And oh gosh.

Speaker 4 (36:35):
So there was a lot of you know, the line
of authority making sure that you were focusing on obeying
the authority because of being that hierarchy is essentially showing
God how dedicated you are to him and how much
you put him first. There wasn't a moment where there
wasn't some kind of event or gathering, so they constantly
kept us busy. There was a lot of volunteering, like
you cleaned the church, you know, helped in the nursery

(36:58):
with the kids, helped your fellow you know, member of
church members watching their kids. Again, like you don't focus
on self, focus on serving and if you like, struggle
with anxiety depression. That just means you're being selfish. So
get out there and serve your fellow brothers and sisters
in Christ. Read your Bible, you know, get out there
and do things you know, serve the church.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Sounds like we've got a perfect recipe. You're a sleep deprived,
food depressed.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Your time is completely consumed.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, and completely there you go, and everything you do
is a sign of your sin basically, yeah, for yourself.

Speaker 4 (37:33):
Anything and everything you know, like I said, insert whatever
like it would be. For example, before we moved to Nashville,
I for my twentieth birthday, I got second holes pierced
through my ears and I got my cartlage pierced. And
I didn't think to ask my mom because I was twenty.
And I remember getting in trouble for that because I
did not ask permission.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
And I was like so confused. And this is not
to like bad moth my mom.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
It's just you know, twenty years old and I couldn't
go pierce my ears on my own accord.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
I had to make sure I permission from my authority. Figures.
That's so crazy.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
I don't want to jump ahead, so you don't need
to comment on this yet, but I can't imagine when
you do finally leave the church and your parents. Like
if it were me, I'd be like, oh my god,
I'm fucking free. But we will get to that.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
We'll get that. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
So you you also wrote about this experience at the
summer camp in Nashville where Gwen was, Yes, and you
wrote about this thunderstorm.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Can you tell us about the thunderstorm? Yes.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
So I remember going to that camp just feeling very dejected.
I was trying to move to Nashville to kind of,
you know, getting my own freedom and staying at my
own two feet and do something with my life.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
And that way was blocked. I wasn't.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
I'd been working really hard doing everything I was told
lost all the weight, and I was told I wasn't.
I wasn't pure en us like they were very obsessed
with being pure. And I like, you should be able
to lay down all sin and be Jesus Christ if
if you work hard at it and focus on God
and you know again and obey that, you know authority,
hierarchy within the church. And I was feeling guilty, like

(39:13):
I think I was told that I should lose five
more pounds, and I was feeling awful because I didn't
know how it was going to lose this weight. And
then that storm blew in, and storms are really bad
in that area as it were. We didn't know this
because we weren't living there at the time, but this
this storm had blown in. It was very scary, and
I remember Gwen stopping everything and we all were down

(39:37):
on our basis just laying on the floor praying to
God for mercy. And you know, Gwen was telling us
that someone in the campus sinned and you need to
get right with God because if we were to be
taken out, well that's your fault if you're sinning. So
you know, get right with God and beg for forgiveness.
And of course I'm laying on the floor like freaking out, like,
oh my God, like I can't get this weight off,

(40:00):
and you know, I've not been doing what I'm supposed
to be doing, you know, which the goalposts always move anyway,
so like I probably never was going to get there.
But I remember the moment thinking, gosh, I can't imagine
like taking out all these wonderful people because you know,
so it's like she she really turned it back on
all of us, like, you guys must have done something

(40:21):
to make this happen.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
To cause a thunderstorm.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, yeah, what a manipulation. I mean yeah, do you
think she believed any of it?

Speaker 4 (40:32):
I do one hundred percent feel that she believed it
because that that message came up.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
I know one sermon she talked about the butterfly effect.
If I remember, I think she even showed parts of
the movie The Ashton Kutcher. Oh my god, that's okay, okay.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Yeah, And so she would say if you are sinning,
like you need to watch what you're doing. That one
bite over full could create catastrophe for somebody else.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
I can't that is so intense.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
In other words, the butterfly effect, how do we describe
if someone doesn't know what that means, like a gen
Z person, for.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Example, But the flutter of a butterfly's wings can affect
an event.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
It can cause a tsunami across the world. Like everything's connected. Yeah,
you don't see necessarily the little effect you'll have on
something else and something else and something else.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
So for example, you're you're supposed to let your body growl,
which I wanted to land on a little bit more
before you could eat, Like she was like, find your growl.
I think your stomach's growl. Your stomachs growling.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
And then your stomach literally had to growl. Yeah yeah,
that's so grow so wacky. I mean to tell you,
it's very agree that my stomach ever growls, like I need.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
To pay sick right, Yeah, yeah, I get so nauseous
before my stomach whatever. I would just be perpetually on
a couch at this point, like a fainting couch. Yeah yeah,
but uh yeah, like if you started to eat before
your girl, that was probably never coming because your body wasn't.
But like that then somebody and Indonesia could die.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
And that's the butterfly effect. And you did it right.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
Like if if you just eat one bite too much,
you could kill people.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
That's a perfect recipe for like the worst mental disorders
I've ever.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Heard of in my life. Believable.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Did people ever die, like die or get hospitalized from
restricting themselves so much? Not that I knew of while
I was in That's lucky, that's a lucky chance.

Speaker 4 (42:35):
Yeah, there was the one of the anonymous women who
I do know and I'm not gonna you know, blow
or cover, but she did get very ill, like she
did I but that was after I had left, you know,
But I remember her, and you know, she was very thin,
you know, and it makes sense that that all happened
to her because you know, we didn't focus on nutrition.

(42:57):
We just focused on eating whatever the heck you wanted.
And I mean I don't necessarily say doing whatever you wanted,
but you know, doing whatever Gwen wanted.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, Like Gwen wasn't big on like exercising or like
you know, I guess essentially taking care of yourself. I
guess she figured that if you weren't eating as much,
then that just everything's took care of itself.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
That's the only parameter for health. Okay, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
This is kind of a question that's just burning from
my soul. But like, was her hair just growing as
her power grew? Like how was that hairstyle morphing with her?

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (43:33):
So when I saw her, you know when back in
desert Oasis and wait on times, her hair was not
like that at all.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
No.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Really, by the time Remnant rolled around, that's when the
hair grew huge.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
And I feel like it did get bigger over the years.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Closer to Heaven, I mean, I've never seen hair like that.
It's crazy in my life. If you have not seen
Gwen's hair, you are missing a big piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Immediately.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Did anyone else in the church try to like imitate
her hairstyle?

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah? Oh, all the women. No, all the women tried
to Oh, I even try to tease my hair. I'll
really tell you something. My hair can't get that big.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
No, I mean and.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Right right, no, no.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Oh, she had bumpets. Go Laura in there. That wasn't
all her meal hair.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
My friend Laura she did she did her hair, and
she and my mom did her I'm pretty sure my mom.
I'll have dad double check with my mom. I might
be missed speaking, but I know Laura. She said it
was the regiment she had, and I think she just
had really thick hair. I don't know how she maintained
that thick hair with the way.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
She ate, but it was all natural.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
She said there was a way she washed and dried,
and she fought her hair, and there was a strict
regiment and routine that she had to be able to
get that kind of volume.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Fascinating. So that's that's just what I've been told.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
I don't know, well, I would trust you over my
assumption that she's got ten buffets and there.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
I mean, I guess we'll talk about this when kind
of your shelf breaks. But I'm interested if there's like
a point and a deconstruction where you're like, holy shit,
that hair looks insane. We'll get to it. But like
I'm just wondering if there's.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
That moment, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
So you're kind of you were kind of in and
out of the church depending on where you were at
in your life, right, like you would kind of end
up back in it.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
I wasn't equipped to be an adult, Like, I wasn't
given those tools, and so I kind of ping ponged
between my dad and my mom. So if I left
my mom, I I would call my dad and be like, Dad,
I can't I need help, like get me out of here.
So after that camp, I think right after that is

(45:40):
when I had decided to leave. I don't remember exactly.
I think what made me finally make that decision was
not being able to go to Nashville.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
And I said, that's it. You know what am I
doing all this for? If I can't progress?

Speaker 4 (45:52):
Like I can't live here forever, you know, I have
to do something with my life. You couldn't even go
to college with that consulting leadership, you know, and getting
permission from your parents, like it was that strict. So
it was really frustrating. I'm like, I can't live like
this anymore if the goalposts were going to keep moving.
So I called my dad and I said, Dad, I

(46:14):
need help. Can you help me figure out how to
get out of here? I can't do this anymore? And
he came down and helped me move. And I moved
to the town I'm in now and had a little apartment.
Like they helped me, you know, get that and get
settled and gave me a car to use. And so
I was living up here for.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
A little bit.

Speaker 4 (46:32):
You know.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
I remember my first apartment.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
This is my first apartment I own, you know, without
you know, anyone happened to live with me.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
And it was the cutest little place. And there was
a cardinal on a picture of a cardinal on the wall.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
And I remember writing to my mom going, you know,
this seems to me like a sign from God that
I'm doing the right thing. There's a cardinal in the
apartment that I'm running and she you know, to paraphrase.
I don't remember what the letter said, but basically it
was very much like, no, you're not You're not under
God's authority. You've left his message, You're going to hell.
You're being deceived. I hate that one. I chose the world,

(47:04):
you know, so not bad message, and of course that
fucks with you. Yeah, you know, and it sucks with
you hard, and you don't I didn't realize at the
time how much I was indoctrinated to the message.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
I didn't know about that back then.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
The only ex exposure I ever knew about Colts was
you know, Jim Jones and heaven Gate. And this didn't
feel like it, you know, it just felt like a
really strict church. During that time, I ended up meeting
my oldest son's dad and you know, got pregnant, and
I remember everyone being very upset about it.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
I'm sure, you know, I was twenty one, you know,
I understand, you know, I mean, we weren't.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
We were barely together for that long, and here I
am pregnant and I'm scared out of my mind. But
it felt right, you know. I knew what I had
to do, and you know, I tried to do it,
but of course, you know that doubt would creep back in.
So now I'm bringing this life into the world and
I'm not right with God, I'm not in this message,
right What's that going to do to my child? And

(48:04):
so that's that's scary, and you know, am I going
to be a good mother? And it was really hard,
so being twenty one pregnant and kind of the relationship
I wouldn't say was completely unstable, but we didn't really
know each other, and you know, we all had our
own baggage and it.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Was just a mess. It was the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
A life is hard enough on its own, and then
to add these really strict belief systems and it just
makes it impossible.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
That puts you on the end of the punishment stick.
It's a weird way to freeze that.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
But you know, no all the time, yeah, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
I just felt like everything in my life was happening.
And you know, and they say this to you, if
you leave, you know, you'll gain all the weight back you.
All of these bad things will happen because you chose
to leave God's message. So you know, I wouldn't necessarily
say everything bad was happening, but you know, I believed it.
So I remember, I just like got to a point
where I know I'd referenced it in what I wrote

(48:59):
first Watch, but you know, I watched this.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Movie at constantine.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
I think Gabriel till this one's character, you know, had said,
you know, you know what the truth is. You know
why why do you turn your back from it? Or
is something to that effect, And I was like, oh
my god, I need to go back. So I called
my mom and we tried to convince Ben's dad, my
son's dad, to come with us, but he was like no,
and you know, I don't want to do that, Like
he had some sense at the end of the day,

(49:25):
but he chose not to come back. And then I
moved back to Marion with my mom and all my
siblings and my stepdad. And then a few months later
I was cleared to move to Nashville and that's where
I had been, and I was back in remnant again.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Wow, in and out and in and out.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
I mean, it makes you know, it seems like you're
following this trajectory that's very common, which is that when
you are in a place of vulnerability, in need, in
your life. When you don't have structure, you're you know
there's some big shift in your life or a fear
of something like there it's kind of just waiting there
for you to be something to structure your life and

(50:04):
your belief system.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Well, I became a self fulfilling prophecy too.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
You know, I believe that I was wrong in what
I was doing, so you know, eventually I'll see every
little thing like you become chicken little and you're like,
oh my God, like I'm going to hell because I'm not.
You know what they don't I two do, which is interesting.
They go, something bad happens to you when you leave?
They go, that was because you left.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
If something bad happens to you while you're in, they go,
that was to teach you a lesson.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
And I always found that so unfair.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
It's like it's a loop.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
I can't win. And if something good happens when you leave,
how do they false peace?

Speaker 2 (50:44):
That's like you you don't have real peace, and you
think you have peace, but it's just an emptiness. And
you're right, it's a self fulfilling prophecy because you're like,
is this not real?

Speaker 3 (50:54):
And like they told me, i'd feel bad. Now, I
feel bad. They must have been telling the truth.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
And again, it's very.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Easy feel bad as a human being.

Speaker 4 (51:01):
It's very scary, especially if you're a woman.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, and the mother and like, yeah, there's right ways
to feel bad.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
And on the flip side too, there if they're going
to tell you that you're gonna feel good in the program.
And of course any time you are in the midst
of a community that's offering you structure, there are going
to be moments where you feel good or they wouldn't
be able to attract.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Huge dopamine heads with that structure for sure.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Oh yeah, the.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
Love bombing was always just off the charts. Like when
remnat was first introduced to me, everyone knew who I. Well,
the people in our chapter knew who I was. They
know me since I was little, But like people outside
of our Marian group knew who I was because Mom
had been talking to me, to every about me to everyone,
and that was you know, who doesn't like attention? Yeah yeah,

(51:53):
and I was starved for it, so like I ate
it up every time, and you know, every time I went,
you know, left and came back, Like I made bonds
with people and you know, and I believe they're all.
I miss a lot of them, I do, and I
remember a lot of the times with them very fondly.
But my heart also breaks because life, to me is

(52:15):
so much better on the other side than it took
a while to get there where I was in a
good place. But you know, even through all the turmoil everything,
like they say a lot, living living in God's box,
God's boundaries is so much freer than living out in
the world, and I gotta say that's a bunch of
bull shit.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
I got to say, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,
if you're in a box, in your box, there's nothing
free about being in a box now, and I'm pretty
sure God doesn't want us to live in a box. No, No,
how did you how did the cracks officially begin to form?
How did you really see that this was not for you?

Speaker 4 (52:51):
Well, what was getting really frustrating for me was, you know,
I'm trying again, I'm trying to prove myself. This is
the last time I was in you know, coming back
out of wedlock was very It wasn't great like I was.
I wouldn't necessarily say shunned, but I definitely didn't get
you know, the nice things that other girls would get, like,

(53:11):
you know, the girls would be able to have boyfriends
and be able to do all the things, and I
had to just be sitting there with my baby. Which
I'm not going to complain, Like, I absolutely adored all
those moments with my children, but there was still a
level of being shunned there that never really went away.
So I worked extra hard to prove to them. So
anytime anything came up, I went to whatever leader I
could and say, Hey, this.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Is going on. What should I do?

Speaker 4 (53:33):
You know, like Ben's dad's family is contacting me. You know,
my family's contacting me. What do I do? You know,
how do I navigate this? And you know, I would listen.
I would eat up everything that they said because I'm like,
I got to really listen and apply everything they're telling me.
Like I even went to leadership to say I wanted
to go to massage school?

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Can I can I do that?

Speaker 4 (53:52):
And waited till they told me I had to go
ahead and just constant.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Whatever they told me, you know, so I would do.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
And I think what finally got frustrating, what really wore
me down, was you know, I was staying at home
with my son and my little brother who they're lessening
year apart. I was essentially the man, and the expectations
weren't really laid out very clearly for me. I just
I did what I knew how to do. You know,
keep the house clean, keep the babies clean and fed,
and you know, take care of the other kids, cook

(54:23):
for them if I had to do laundry, things like that,
and you know, my sisters would try to help me,
and and that helping things would get damaged, and it,
unfortunately always ended up being something of my mother's and
I would get the blame for it, and I would
take it, and I would take it and I would
take it, and eventually there was a breaking point. And
I know a friend of my friend of mine from

(54:45):
high school, and again this was the social media back then,
was my Space. Yeah, I had a secret my Space.
We weren't supposed to have that. I think we did
all have my Space at one time, all the youth
and remnant. But they found it to be bad, so
they banned it. But I still kept mine rock and roll, and.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
I got really good at learning how to delete histories
and things like that.

Speaker 4 (55:06):
Nice and that's why I kept in contact with everybody.
And I remember a girl from high school who I
used to be friends with. She had messaged me and
she's like, you're in a cult, you know. And I
was like, what are you talking about, lady? This is
I'm not like again because the only reference we had,
at least I had was again extreme references, right, and

(55:29):
this didn't feel like that.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
And I was like, that doesn't make any sense, like
I'm on a call. But you know, thanks, you know
what I just realized.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Of course, also you didn't because it was a perfect
lineup of like time and history and this exact message,
where any other time in the world that people were
starving themselves that much, other people might be like, hey,
this is kind of weird, but the diet culture was
so strong at that exact point in time that you're

(55:57):
not seeing that.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
This is really extreme because it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (56:01):
No, well again, I didn't see it because I was
only involved with people in the church. I was at
home all day every day, and if I wasn't at home,
I was at the church or at someone's house, you know, visiting,
or at the church doing church or Bible study or whatever.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
I was constantly my time was constantly being consumed by
renant fellowship.

Speaker 4 (56:19):
So I didn't have an out like I had the
MySpace page, but I didn't have like other outlets, like
I couldn't really see everything else.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
Right to compare it to healthier situations.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
Right, So what started happening was going to massage school.
People would ask me, and I would feel really awkward
and like, you know, I didn't want to talk about
it because I'm like, they might find this weird. I
was like, well, if you're happy about something it's really
working for you shouldn't feel that way, right, Like you
should feel happy about it.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
It should feel natural.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
And you know, I feel guilty about you know, not
because you were supposed to proselytize.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
You know, you're supposed to be Oh, you know, this
is what I do.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
And you know, eventually like lure, people like I wouldn't
talk about it outside of remnant. But the final the
shelf breaking was so my son and my brother Lessen
or Apart, you know, gave had turned one. We were trying.
I was trying to get him off sippy cups. He
wanted the bottle. I during the day would get him

(57:17):
to drink out of sippy cups. But my work would
be undone at night because everyone would give him bottle
m and I was like, oh my god. And one
of the girls packed, you know, gave cyperbag for church
and put a bottle in there, and I got the
blame for it the next day, and I.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Just was like, I didn't do it.

Speaker 4 (57:35):
You know, I just was fed up at this point,
like I didn't do it. And I'm sure I rolled
my eyes and went, which drives my mom nuts. And
you know, then came the how dare you talk to
me this way in my own home? I am your authority,
you know, who do you think you are? And then
she goes, I'm going to take away your cell phone.
You know, you're in so much trouble. And I was

(57:56):
like whatever, and I went upstairs or groun my cell phone,
and then halfway up the stairs, I go, I'm not
giving it to you. It's fine, I'm not doing it.
And then I'll hall burk loose. Well, yeah, I They
fought me for the phone and I fought back, and uh,
there were marks left on me. And I called a
friend back in Ohio and I said, you're not gonna

(58:17):
believe what just happened. I'm leaving out a lot really
with that, so like essentially being assaulted to take a phone.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
She did take the phone.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
I remember at one point I'm sobbing and she's holding
my son in her arms and like looming over me, going,
you know, you don't deserve to be a mom. You're
a bad mom because you don't obey. And that that
happened a lot too. It is a manipulation tactic.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
It's a nightmare.

Speaker 4 (58:41):
It really is, like he's crying for me, and you know,
I want my baby, like, you know, well, thank you.
I it was it's just not okay to do, you know,
especially to a young any mother, you know.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
But it was bad.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
So I called the friend in Ohio and I'm like,
this is what happened.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
I don't know what to do.

Speaker 4 (59:01):
She took my phone like she's threatening to take away
my son, and she said call the cops.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
And I said, oh my god, no, I couldn't do that.
I couldn't.

Speaker 4 (59:09):
There was there's a remnant in our neighborhood. There was
remnant people everywhere, you know, they would see and I said,
I can't, I can't call them. And again I don't
remember who who ended up calling, but the cops came
and they took pictures of you know, there's marks on
my face and on my neck, and they'd ask me
what had happened, and I explained to them, you know,

(59:30):
she took my FID. I mouthed off and you know,
rolled my eyes and you know, said I wasn't going
to give him my phone. And the one cop goes,
how old are you? And I said twenty two? And
he looked at me and I said, don't. I don't
want to talk about it because you also weren't allowed
to say anything negative about Remnant because God would strike
you down because people that belonged to Remnant, you know,

(59:52):
God's message are saints, and God won't tolerate slander against
his people.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
So I didn't want him to to bring anything. I
just I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
I don't't talk about it, just I understand. At this point,
I just want to know, can I get my son?
Can I get what I can fit in my car?

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Can I go?

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
And they're like yeah, And they managed to get my
mom to come back home from work to give me
back my phone. They told her that was theft because
it wasn't in her name, it was my phone, and
they stayed while I just threw everything I could in
bags and just stuffed my car full and I put
my he was just over a year old. I put
my one year old son in my car and drove
with nothing back to Ohio.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Wow, what did it feel like to drive away from that?

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
What was that feeling?

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Awful? I had nowhere to go? I didn't really there
was no solid plane.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
I just got out of there, and I was crying
the whole way there because I thought, this is it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
I doomed best to hell? You know, this is you know,
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
Yeah, sorry, No, it was terrifying because that's all I'd known.
And you know, they beat it into you that leaving
that message means you're doomed.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
You're going to hell. That's just your prayers will hit
the ceiling and you're done. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
And the auntie so turned up with with having a
kid too, you know, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Yeah, that's when it gets doubled, don't you worried about
their salvation? It's disaster. So you went to a friend's
place or where did you go?

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
So the friend that I had called it told me
to call the cops. She western me to me eighty
bucks probably like eighty bucks to get up there. And
I use credit cards and stuff which I would not
recommend kids becually not having a dog.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Hey, when you're staping a cole, you know, you do
what you gotta do. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:40):
So she was staying with a friend of hers and
they let me crash on the couch, so she kind
of wherever she went. I kind of crashed with her.
Was a couch surfer for a while and then I
met I met a guy and through her, and it's
really it's very twisting, convoluted, but he I was desperate
for stability and love and every everything I wanted to

(01:02:04):
I couldn't have. I wanted a father figure for Ben,
you know, I wanted all these things, and he said
all the right things. And then we got married immediately
in December. I left in November and we got married
like maybe a month later. Wow, we barely knew each other,
And I just thought it was so romantic.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
It makes total sense that you would exit the situation
and be flailing and be like searching for stability. And
people do end up cult hopping frequently when they're in
your situation, they end up in another either cult or
high control group or abusive relationship. I mean, that's very,
very common, and it makes total sense, like your whole worldview,
your whole framework, your whole stability in life has just

(01:02:43):
been completely overturned, and especially when you're broke, which really
my mom was after our cult experience, and it's it's
a nightmare when you have nowhere to go and you
don't have enough money and you don't know, you know,
it's just like and when somebody has it's a.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Perfect you know it really is.

Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Yes, Yeah, and that's what it felt like too, you
know it was I think what pushed me over the
edge that, you know, and pushed me further towards that
abusive relationship was my dad. I pulled into his driveway
to see him, and he came out of his house
screaming at me to get away and to stay away
from him and his family.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
So I thought the whole family hated me.

Speaker 4 (01:03:24):
Now remnant, Did I do the right thing every time
by just kind of disappearing into the night, essentially, I
don't know, you know, who's to say at this point, really,
you know, I could have explained something to somebody or whatever.
I don't know, but I just I didn't. I never did.
I just took off and that hurt them. And I
understand if there's hurt there, but you know, here I

(01:03:45):
am with my child and you're turning me away. You know,
that was really tough. Eventually they did let me come back,
but you know it was not great either, but it
was something until I was able to get up on
the end two feet.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
Now, what a journey you have been on. Absolutely, I
feel like I've lived so many lifetimes. I'm very tired.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
I want to ask about how you found out Gwen
had died, Like was that I mean, did you think
of her as almost a prophet at some point?

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
What?

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
What was that?

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Like? I definitely felt that God was talking through her,
that she really knew what she was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Yeah, I don't know how I feel about prophet.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
Necessarily she would be like, oh, people say that, but
I'm not a prophet.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
But you knew she thought that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:32):
Right, And like one of her Way Down series, Like
I don't necessarily want to call it way down extreme.
I think that might have been a joke in Remnant.
I'm not one hundred percent for sure. There was like
a kind of a very intense Way Down series and
I think in that series she talked about she predicted
nine to eleven, you know, so she definitely drank her employe.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
But I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:04:54):
I think I got off on a change and I apologized. No,
what was done to me is that was at the cost.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
I was just wondering what it was like to see
this person had passed away.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
You know, it's so funny. I was just talking about
this today. In fact, it was I.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
Mourned more for the people in the plane with her
than I did for her, and not in a bad
or negative way, like good riddance whatever, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
I mean, it's good.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
You know. I think it was her time to go
and it needed to happen. I hope she got everything
she deserves.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
We had no ill will.

Speaker 4 (01:05:29):
It's just, you know, I was it was kind of
a relief, you know, knowing that she's not around anymore.
Like I'm pretty sure i'd probably be sued by now.
I would think it's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Right she was, But lots of people spared a lot
of heartache, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
Yeah. It was just it was very It was a
little bit decentering because we I had just already I
had already done my first interview with uh the docus
for the docuseries, and then all of us that you know,
participated in it or knew about it, were like, oh
my gosh, what are they going to do now? And
I remember all being very relieved that they still decided

(01:06:07):
to go forward with it. Just took them a little
bit longer because all the work they've been doing now
they had to kind of like redirect.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Because Gwen died in a plane crash in the summer.
Pople don't think that she did. I'm like, Ah, she did.
I think she did. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:22):
I don't know if you really can come back from
that or fake something like that. I mean it, I'd
be horrible.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
I just want to know, because when you leave a
community in a belief system and you're in a family
and you're out in the world and you still part
of you still very much believes that that church was
right or that you're going to hell or whatever, Like,
how long did it take you or is it taking
you to deconstruct some of those beliefs and what has

(01:06:52):
that process been like?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
It took a good ten years, it really truly did.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
And for me, how I managed to unpack all of
it was a lot of how he was treated in
a remnant and all the tenets and remnant were no
different than how it was raised. So you know, I've
said before that you know I was conditioned to be
the perfect cult member. So anyways, I didn't have a
lot of counseling for a really long time, but you know,
learn it through learning things, like I would try to

(01:07:19):
learn things and even through my husband, like he would
give me a perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
He's normal, he.

Speaker 4 (01:07:25):
Grew up normal, he didn't grow up with help, and
his parents are still married and they're so normal. And
in fact, I think that's when it really seeing how
they functioned as a family, I was like, oh my gosh,
this is what it's supposed to be like like I
had no idea. I thought the way I grew up
was normal, like everybody grew up that way, being around

(01:07:46):
you know, quote unquote normalcy, and and you know, having
a partner who would help me as best he could
when he could, you know, is for what he understood.
It was like my mid thirties when I finally started
facing that I may be in a cult. Like I
would look it up every now and then and it
would scare me because I'm like you know, I don't
know why it would scare me, but it's just like

(01:08:07):
it's I would joke about it like, huh, I was
in a cult. You know. Some people say that sound
like a cult, and I'm like, yeah, whatever, you know,
but truly facing what I had been a part of,
you know, naming it what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
It's it's a high control group. It's a cult.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
There's no other way to look at it. It took
me a long time, but it was that generation called
podcast I had stumbled upon finally just going I just
really need to I need to say sick, what's what's
it going to hurt? And learning through other survivors stories
like I really related to a lot of the Scientology survivors.

(01:08:42):
It's like Remnant's a lot of Church of God and
Christian fundamentalism and a little bit of Scientology almost like
just the way Remnant would track their members and you know,
manipulate and everything, and how they would isolate families that
just felt very There's something about their stories that felt
really similar.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
And you know, the more.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
I listened to some more, I was like, oh gosh,
Like so I wasn't a cult. This really did happen
to me.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Right, cults like just kind of repeat their It's like
the sauce just kind of repeats itself over and over.
So listening to any survivors, yeah right, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
The same makeup, but just there's always a slight difference
throughout everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Yeah, but they're using the same tactic. It's usually the hair.
She went all out on that one. It really did.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
Yeah No, but I like maybe truly, I think what
you're saying is important though, because you know, this is
something we hear about a lot and talk about a lot,
which is that like generally people struggle to see if
there a group is a cult or was a cult,
just from people directly attacking the cult, but hearing other
stories and seeing the parallels and drawing those connections themselves

(01:09:49):
and hearing themselves in other people's stories, that can really
be the big thing that opens people's eyes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
And I'm really glad you have access to some of
those stories. I know me too.

Speaker 4 (01:09:58):
It's like almost like a gent her way to kind
of awaken like that realization, I guess you could say,
because like other ways they're almost like too harsh, Like
sometimes I feel like it should be subtle, especially like
with with someone coming out of, you know, a group
like Remnant. It's what I've noticed with a lot of
survivors is it's not very prevalent that that's the first

(01:10:18):
thing they want to say.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
And I get that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
It took me a long time to say you can't
wake a sleepwalker a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, yeah yeah right.

Speaker 4 (01:10:28):
So what finally did it for me when I finally
decided that I needed to really get into counseling and
take it very seriously. Was I just wrote a simple
paragraph on a Reddit post. Oh, someone had posted a
picture of mister Bean the cowboy in the first yeah,
the first half.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
I cannot remember his name.

Speaker 4 (01:10:46):
He has a trailer that talks about Remnant, how Remnant
took his wife or whatever and who I shouldn't take
all this stuff or something really hilarious, and I was like,
oh my god, like that's crazy that they have that
close to the church and everything.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
And someone asked me, well, what is your experience with
this church? You know what? You know, why would you
call to call like what happened to you?

Speaker 4 (01:11:05):
So I just gave like a very brief synopsis, you know,
and all of a sudden, like I have two journalists
contacting me. Raphael Martinez contacted me and then through that
they became the story I wrote on Spirit Watch, and
you know, multiple conversations with Rajeev Gala is one of
the journalists I talked to, and Nile through Nile Capello.
In Raphael's how I ended up on the docuseries is

(01:11:28):
you can see the first half I was. I was terrified.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
He was still sitting in that chair.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
I was terrified because it's again, I'm putting out to
the world now, like I'm telling my truth to the world,
and what are people going to say?

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
What are they going to think of me?

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
Because people generally don't have a good view on people
who've gone through what I've gone through, And you know,
I think it's normal to maybe judge because you know,
what worked for me isn't going to work for you.
But it could happen to you in different areas too.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
I think a lot of people don't realize. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
One of the things you said that really stuck out
to me, and I might not be quoting you exactly,
but you said, if you can't find a therapist who
specializes in called find one who specializes in domestic abuse
because they're very similar. And I was like, holy shit,
that is so smart and specializes in trauma, and I'm

(01:12:19):
going to add that to my repertoire of Yeah, it's
really smart and you do a lot of outreach work.
Can you tell us a little bit about where we.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Can find that?

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
And so I have a support group on Facebook, and
you know there's not just remnant survivors in there, but
you know people from all different you know groups, not
like a ton of ton but that's a Christie.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
And c Forard.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
They are from they left remnant. They were married to
two different people in the church and divorced and then
they found each other and got married. They are doing
exceptional work. Like they actually are doing what I would
love to do. I just I don't have it to
do like their they're certified in life coaching and counseling

(01:13:05):
and uh. Their organization is called the Way Out to Freedom. Yeah,
they're doing amazing work. And she's been very helpful in
my group because life gets in the way and when
your husband coaches mostly or too, it gets a little tough.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
No, I'm always here.

Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
I'm always here for anybody to reach out through email
and things like that. It's just it's slowed down a lot.
But I'm here for anybody who needs to talk. And
like I said, I can get you. I've got Stephen
krispy Hord. I've got you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
I can find anything, you know, I can look for
any resource. But yeah, and what is your do you do?
You want to share your social media? Absolutely?

Speaker 4 (01:13:39):
Facebook, if you search beyond Zion, I can't remember the handle.
I think the handle is at beyond Zion the website
it's beyond zion dot org. And myself personally, what is
my handle on Instagram? To be honest, I don't really post.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
Much on there.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
I wait, I think I have it may underscore Jen Elizabeth.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
Yep, that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Well, thank you so much for joining us and for
sharing your story. It was amazing talking to you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys reaching out, so
thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
Thank you to Megan Elizabeth Cox for coming on and
for being the second Megan Elizabeth we've ever had on
this show.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
Megan Elizabeth number one.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
I would love to know if you would join the
Way Down Workshop.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
I think you're going to be surprised when my answer. Absolutely,
I'm shocked, are you No? Really, I'm surprised. Are you surprised,
I'm not surprised, Yeah, because I don't. I mean, yeah,
I like her when she's on the way down. Yeah,
I love like a just a woman who's leaning into

(01:14:49):
big hair.

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
I mean, well, I assumed you were going to say,
because it harkens back to your own past and your
own oh history with eating.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
Disorder, your disorder would just be the cherry on top, right.
I just like she's almost like a Dully Parton character
but like telling you you're connected to Jesus.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
Like it's addictive. Yeah, I do see the appeal. You know,
we grew up at least as Americans, you know, who
weren't from La or whatever, grew up like with this
corn fed woman.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
She's gonna take you in and take care.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
You know, this idea of this like total woman from
church and she's a mom and she's strong, you know,
and I feel like she Gwen Chamblain like maybe not
typically the hair that high, but Gwen Chamblin like fits
that sort of archetype from like I think of Friday
night lights or something, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Yeah, she's she's very seductive to me and a like
I'm safe now way even as she's like just driving you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Towards she's literally good. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
Yeah, it's interesting, it's weird, Yeah, but I get it.
I think in general, when colts are led by women,
I think I'm more drawn.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Yep, depending on the content.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Obviously, we did do an episode with Carolyn Costin on
eating disorders that is fascinating, So if anybody wants to
listen to that, please do. Thank you for listening. We
can't wait to see you again next week, and as always,
remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags,
and never ever trust me.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Bye bye.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
This has been an exactly right production hosted by me
Lola Blanc.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
And me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is ge Holly.
This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Our associate producer
is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark
and Danielle Kramer.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast
or on TikTok at trust Me Colt Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Got your Own Story about cults?

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Extreme belief our manipulation. Shoot us an email at trust
me pod at gmail.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
M

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Megan Elizabeth Cox - The Remnant Fellowship, Gwen Shamblin, and the Worship of Skinny

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;} Megan Elizabeth Cox - The Remnant Fellowship, Gwen Shamblin, and the Worship of Skinny