November 19, 2025 • 43 mins
This week, Lola and Meagan continue their conversation with Mike and Abbi Prussack, former members of Meagan’s childhood church, the 2x2s. In part 2, they walk the girls through the abuse crisis that has shaken the group in recent years and the long-standing patterns that allowed the harm to continue. Mike and Abbi explain how church leadership handled reports, why victims felt they had nowhere to turn, and how secrecy and obedience has shaped the culture for generations.
They also discuss the FBI investigation, the community’s response, and what it has been like to help moderate the Ex 2x2 Facebook group during a moment of collective reckoning. The conversation looks at the cost of silence and the pressure to stay loyal, plus why so many people are choosing to finally speak out now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Do you trust me?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Right?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Ever lead you astrayed?
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Trust?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This is the truth, the only truth. If anybody ever
tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me.
The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two
advocates of support groups who've actually experienced it.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
I'm Lola Blong and I am Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes you are, Yes I am. Today's Part two with
our guests Mike and Abby Prussach, former members of Megan's cult,
the Two y twos also known as The Truth also
known as The Way, and Mike and Abby are also
moderators of the former two by two Facebook group. So
last week we talked to them about their upbringings in
the secretive Christian sect and how they met. This week,
we're going to talk to them about what led them
(00:44):
to start the support group for ex members and the
explosive revelation about a church leader's sexual abuse, and just
to clarify, this is not my cult. The former former
I was a member. Yes, born men, now you started it? Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
We'll dig into more of the bi investigation of the
widespread sexual abuse, the scope of the group's internal cover ups,
and how they moved perpetrators around instead of contacting the
authorities and the number of people who've been leaving.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
As a result.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Before we jump in with them, Megan, I would love
to know your cultiest thing of the Wei. Well.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I have been reading about tech bros a lot lately,
as one does, as one does, and the new fad,
and it's probably not new. The new talk of the
town is an old fad. That is tech bros Are
getting facelifts. The quote is that you should never hire
someone over thirty too techow.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So, I mean, the advance.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Of facelifts are probably getting so good because of these
men needing to look like they're thirty, and sometimes they
actually do.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Some of the work is pretty incredible. I mean we've
seen face faces have gotten really good. They've gotten incredibly
used to be kind of a kind of a what
is the word that I want you would be cursed
to looking weird forever. Yeah, they're that quinde of like
you can either look old or weird. Yeah, now you
can look pretty young. And Jenner's face a little amazing.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, I've seen it without the filter and it is
a bit different, but it's still I mean, let's not
name some of the younger actresses that have recently and
they look great. They look and bully, I understand the
instincts same. So but you know, so we're not facelifts shaming.
I'm not gonna name anybody, but it is weird for
(02:43):
men or it's less common.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's less common. Thank you. Did I say it
was weird?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, that was wrong with me. It's less common for
you know, I think of like tech guys like Bill
Gates are like freaking nerds, like nerds, yeah yeah, and
and not getting face lifts. I mean it is. It's
interesting how this area that was traditionally a nerd zone,
where it was like kind of the whole thing was
(03:08):
that you weren't cool y has kind of evolved into
this like we're the hot guys, the ridge guys, and
having to do a lot of plastic surgery to maintain that.
The and like we talked about on the in Cell
episode with tem Squirrel, you know, the things that this
group of people in particular are like wemen, like a
(03:28):
big jaw and then like suddenly there's jaw surgeries. Well,
and with Arabella Sicardi too, we like it is actually
interesting to me because one of the things we talked
about with them in that episode was how typically with women,
the anti aging emphasis is on the external appearance, and
with men it's more on life extension than living forever.
So it's interesting to hear that this faction of men
(03:49):
are actually now also focusing on the external appearance. Yeah.
I mean, I'm looking at a tech bro right here.
His face, Louff looks great. I know, it sucks, It sucks.
I don't want us to feel like that looks great,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Yeah, I know I wish it looked worse. But he
looks incredible, really good. I'm sure he's just cash, just cash,
and in the checks.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I mean, it's a testament to agism, still seeing very
much rampant in our society. But I am.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I am really digging deeper into those cults of the
tech bro and it's a fascinating world. Yeah. I think
as the years go on, we're going to have a
lot more information to look back on and a lot
of Yeah, you know, I think it's just going to
be a very very interesting conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Definitely. Can I shamelessly self promo for a second, sure,
you guys, I made a music video about aging. Have
we talked about this on here at all? I think
so it's the woman dancing, yes, yeah, did we talk
about it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, But go on, Okay, I
don't remember talking about it, okay, because I have been
(05:01):
frustrated with this trope and horror movies, because I'm a
horror filmmaker, but I'm also a music hers. She got
shut up, Lola, But I have been corustrated with this
trope of like the old woman is like scary as
she's a monster because she has like low hanging boobs
and wrinkles on her face, and it's like such a comment.
It's called whatever. It's a subgenre called hag's ploitation is
(05:22):
the trope. But I did make a music video starring
an older dancer who we aged up to look even older,
and the whole video is her defying this expectation that
she will be scary simply because she looks old. Anyway,
I was just trying to interrogate this idea that like
aging is inherently scary or something to be afraid of,
(05:42):
and it's called Dear Sarah, if anyone's interested. That is
my spiel on aging. But of course, as I say this,
I am actively putting retinol on my face every now
and getting, you know, like, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You suggested a face feel to me. That almost murdered me.
I'm going to do more.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Oh man, that was the worst in my life. That
was the worst day. What about you? What's your cultist thing?
Uh So? I found an article that two of our
previous guests are quoted in, and it is a huff
Post article called The One Thing. All though this is
a misleading title because it's multiple things. The one thing
(06:18):
called experts want you to do when talking to your
MAGA relatives. Oh and see Passen is of course the
main interview, and as well as Danielle and mastienek Young
and I feel like I'm saying her name wrong but
hopefully not so. First thing it says is ask a
good question. This is something we have. We've talked about
all of this, but sometimes it's good to just have
(06:39):
a refresher because there's so much division and polarization right
now in family, Yennie, You've got to go back to
the fundamentals. Yeah, So ask a good question instead of
telling them why they're wrong, Ask why they believe what
they believe. Get curious, ask from a place of kindness
and empathy, like, that's interesting, what's important to you about that?
(06:59):
What do you think of that? So are you saying
that you believe in that? Because of X? The curiosity?
And also it can be helpful for people to have
to really think about why they believe what they believe,
because so often we don't think about why we believe
what we believe. We just sort of assume we believe it.
So when you have to say it in your own words,
that also can be like a challenge, like to question
(07:20):
whether or not that's yeah, understand.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
And on the flip side, like, I'm sure every single
person alive believes something untrue. So maybe a family member
asks you a question and you can explore your own beliefs.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
From a gentle place. And like I have I have
a you know, we all know I'm quite left, but
I have conservative family members most I would say conservative
family members outside of my immediate family, and we are
able to talk about what we believe because we know
that we love each other and we're coming from a
place of wanting to know. But the only reason why
(07:52):
I can tell them what I believe is because they
are showing me curiosity and vice versa, like if it's
coming when it comes from that attacking place, it just
like it just goes nowhere and then we just get angry.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Does it ever change your views or like move you
in any sort of way.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Not necessarily, because I generally am the things I believe
I read a lot about, but I will say like
it gives me a lot more empathy for why people
believe what they believe and what the perspective that they're
coming from. And I find over and over again that
we share so many of the same core beliefs and values,
(08:31):
but we are being fed really really different information around it.
And I have come to middle ground with family members certainly,
although of course there are some issues that are just
like too spicy and we are not able to get there.
But it depends on it depends on I'm talking to. Yeah.
The article also says come prepared with your own gentle rebuttal.
This one's hard because I really think that the immediate
(08:54):
rebuttal can be tricky. That was a Daniella recommendation. She
suggested some ways you can respond, saying, can I share
why I'm concerned? Would you be open to reading a
source I trust in my experience, people aren't super responsive
still when it's immediate when you're because it still feels
(09:15):
like you're trying to debunk them. I haven't really encountered
that being effective, but in certain cases when the person
is curious, yeah, definitely. And then it says no, your
own triggers and theirs, so that you're not just evolving
into conflict. And then it says, be prepared to safely disengage.
I love you too much to argue with you about this.
I've learned that these that's cute. Yeah, I've learned that
(09:37):
these conversations don't feel good or helpful to me, you know.
I want to focus on connecting with you. And then,
of course the final one, which we talk about all
the time. Keep a tether to your previous relationship, keep
them in your life even when it's a challenge. Yep,
unless they're unless they are abusing you or or just
you know, being outwardly hateful or something. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And I will say that the two by twos have
a nice little system go going on that really de
escalates things like this, because we have so many board
games because we didn't grow up with television, so like
we just go straight.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
To a game like if their conflict is rising, you
just play games. Yeah, that's kind of cool, or like
kind yeah what games?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
You know, there's a game that we're really obsessed with,
to the point that one of my cousins has like
a headlamp with a light on it because it's like
a color game where you try to explain a color
and everybody puts it.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
I don't know what this game is called, but everyone
puts a headlamp on. Everyone doesn't put a head lamp on,
just headlamp on. Just my cousin who is very very
competitive about this game. Okay, But but all the normal
games that one would go to is what we jump.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
To, Oh like Monopoly, Yeah, Taboo? Yeah, I love Taboo.
Best game.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
There's one called God what is it called. We go
to it a lot, but you know, as something that
you can kind of do a.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Group nope, where you can disengage, yeah, instead of instead
of devolving into conflict. God, it's so hard. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
And I'm going home for the holidays. Family is still
in the system that we're discussing today, So I totally
understand how holiday stuff can be awkward.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It truly can. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yeah, and I still want to go because I love
my family and it's like a very complex little thing.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
So yeah, it's so tough. I'm just thinking back to
something that happened with me this summer where I got
I got really I was struggling to keep mich cool.
It just happened. It's going to happen, yep, and it's
going to happen in the other direction too. They also feel, yeah, yeah,
it's it's wild, but it's it's worth keeping the communication
(11:55):
lines open and education and curiosity and compassion. Look at
those three. See that I just pulled out my butthole. Okay,
that you pulled out of your bee three seas from
your three seas from my bee. It's a butthole. That's
that's trademark, actually, guys. Yeah, and we'll keep reminding y'all
(12:17):
every year before the holidays, Yes we will. So do
not explode with your family over politics or religion.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, but anyway, today's guests, Mike and Abby are absolutely incredible.
They are a great example of staying connected to people
and keeping that line of dialogue open and what it
can bring, which is an amazing community that's helped so
many to bitoes. I really appreciate them taking the time
and the information that they have so painstake in me
(12:48):
collected and share. And we do talk in this episode
about sexual abuse and sexual misconducts, So take care listening.
Shall we talk to them? Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
So you end up leaving the church, what leads you
to start this Facebook group that you run?
Speaker 6 (13:15):
So Kyle and Cary, we had been friends with them
throughout all this whole period, So we left in twenty ten.
They left like around the pandemic, so around twenty twenty one,
and where they were one of the friendships that actually lasted,
you know, despite us not being in the church for
that long, and you know, around twenty twenty it kind
(13:38):
of broke for them and they decided to leave. And
it was really kind of a I think they realized
just how lonely it was leaving that community, and so
they asked us if we wanted to start a support
group on Facebook, and we said, yep, let's do it.
So in twenty twenty two January, I think we started
(14:01):
that group together and yeah, it grew at a moderate
pace at that point, and by twenty twenty three March
of twenty twenty three, it was up to about nine
hundred members, which is probably about the point that things
are gonna Well, we've already talked to Colin Cary about
all of that, so you can.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Give us a refresher. Yeah, yeah, please.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
So in March or twenty twenty three, allegations came to
light about Dean Brewer, who was an overseer in organ
and we got our hands on an internal letter that
was describing his abuse and put it online and all
hell broke loose.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Of note is that he had passed away almost a
year before.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And when we say abuse, remind us what we're talking about.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
So we're talking about child sexual abuse and sexual assault
on adult women. And yeah, so it's really hard to
describe how that broke the damn, but it just did.
Like even on that first post of that letter, there
were people disclosing their abuse in the comments already, and
(15:11):
it just kept on coming. Just hundreds and hundreds of
survivors started telling their stories, and you know, sometimes it
was in the comments, it was Facebook posts, it was
just people really just I think there was an opportunity
for the truth to come out, and everybody really really
(15:33):
took it and ran with it.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So there's been just so much has happened since then.
I mean, I remember when you first were like, there's
a Facebook group for two by two. It is crazy
how much has happened since then. What has come to
light maybe the nut shell version and then we can
kind of talk about more recent developments, if that makes sense.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
Yeah, So what has come to light is literally over
a thousand perpetrators of sexual abuse and whether it be
child sexual abuse or a sexual assault on adults.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
And these are just cases that have been disclosed to
various places in the community.
Speaker 6 (16:10):
And this is in a church that, prior to COVID
was around seventy five thousand based on good estimates. Obviously,
we don't have any solid information about the numbers in
the church because they don't publish them.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
They don't I don't even know if they keep them.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
And so yeah, over one thousand perpetrators is quite a
significant percentage.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And this is happening like in people's homes. These are
people of authority and there's just like a power dynamic
and also like they're in the family space, right.
Speaker 6 (16:44):
Yeah, those allegations are based on our data. Between thirty
five and forty percent are minister's workers. And then the
remaining are elders just members. Okay, Yeah, so it kind
of spans across all those demographics, and.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
For most of those cases, somebody knew and didn't do anything.
So the percentage of abusers in a population, you know,
you usually kind of weed them out as you find out,
and they never did. So the percentage of abusers in
the population just kind of seems like it just grew
and prospered and they were just typically moved to different areas,
(17:25):
or the survivor was just kind of isolated and they left,
or they were told not to say anything, or they
were revictimized in a way that made them feel unsafe
say anything. But then when you feel a nice the world,
they stay in the church and it's just a horrible mess.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Yeah, victims were told to forgive, you know, weaponized forgiveness,
and then at the same time, it's like there was
no forgiveness if you cut your bangs or war pants
as a woman, right, So it just this very ripe
place for abuse is fostered.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I mean, you couldn't. It's almost like it was purposefully
manicured that way.
Speaker 6 (18:07):
Yeah, having the minister is staying in the homes, even
in some cases sleeping in the same rooms as the
kids when they would stay.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
At home, Especially in previous generations, that was a lot
more common.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, it's terrifying. And so let's say an incident happens
and it's reported to someone.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yeah, let's say like one of the workers does something
to somebody and the elder or their parents bring it
to an elder or an overseer.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I think usually you guys would know more than me.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
But it's kind of a conversation of like, Okay, we
talked to them, let's move on to the forgiveness process,
and if it's.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Particularly bad, we're going to move them to.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
A new area where no one knows that this happened
at all, and they'll just start staying in new kids' houses.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Is that a good paraphrase?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (18:59):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like how many were
actually reported to the authorities, and I can maybe find
like a handful of instances where where an overseer found
out about abuse and actually reported it.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, that's that's not a thing really.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
In fact, I mean they even put out communications that
told people not to and it told they told people to.
What was it they needed to think?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
They said to it.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
If you find out about abuse, tell a a therapist,
so that then the onus is on the therapist to report,
not on you the worker to have to report.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Right, but the therapist doesn't have enough info to do
anything about it anyway. And it was only if you
absolutely have to, So it was literally, don't report it
unless you really have to, then maybe tell somebody else
and just like then you can wipe your hands and
and if they feel obligated to report it, they will
(20:03):
without very much information.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And I'm assuming the thinking is similar to what it
often is in situations like this, where they don't want
a bad reputation. Is that kind of.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Well, they don't want any reputation. They don't want They
didn't want to be known for a church that has
the one and only way to heaven. It's really strange
how much they didn't want to be known. They they
want everything to stay secret. They don't want any information
to get into the wrong hands. You know, they told
people to at times, they told people to burn or
shred the lists the worker lists after they're done with
(20:37):
that year. Never really explained why, but just in case
they get in the wrong hands, or to not to
destroy your notes after you're done with them, that type
of thing. They really didn't want to be known as
an entity.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
Right, So that there was definitely like the preservation of
the church, the church's image, at least for the people
that were in the church, right. But also they really
believe that if people were cast out of meetings, were
told not to attend, that they were going to be
sending them to hell. And so when you literally feel
(21:13):
like you are so you know, say an overseers in
that position of authority, he literally believes that if he
tells this person they can't go to meeting anymore, that
that's the equivalent of sending them to hell, because meeting
attendance is required for salvation in their eyes.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Wow, I didn't know that. That's fascinating. But at the
same token, I do know people who have been asked
to not attend meetings or asked not to speak at meetings.
That's another thing. We're the ones who speak at meetings.
It's the whole thing because they addressed too flamboyantly. So
there is a willingness to lose a person who doesn't
(21:51):
look the part, but there's no willingness to lose a
person who might be doing crazy things, but they're kind
of like fitting the part right well.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And the idea is that you can repent from things
that you've done in the past, but if you're willfully
participating now, then you're not repenting. Right. So if you're
wearing pants to meeting right now, that's a current choice,
and if you were to stop doing that, you could
stay in meetings, right. And so for somebody who has
hurt a person, it's in the past, right And if
they say all, I've repented and the workers have decided
(22:23):
to accept that, like, it's not the same thing as
choosing to participate in gay relationships, you know what I mean.
That's their justification is that you are continuing to choose
it and act on.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
That it's a past transgression.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Yeah, And of course, as we've found out, they're repentant.
I'm putting it in quotation marks, but continue to do it.
It's just the secret.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So it isn't earrings that a woman is wearing an
our head that we're not allowed to do. It's a
secret that they're able to get away with. Are there
any numbers on like how many people were just kind
of moved and then perpetrated again in the new area.
Speaker 6 (22:59):
We have data that probably could could be compiled about that,
but I don't have the numbers readily available. I would
say it's definitely in the dozens, if not higher, of
ones that were definitely moved from place to place after
their allegations were known.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
What's happening right now, because aren't there haven't there been
like a ton of ongoing authority investigation stuff?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah? So in what was it?
Speaker 6 (23:37):
At Thanksgiving twenty twenty three, we were at Kyle and
Carry's house for Thanksgiving and Cary got a call from
a random number and it turned out it was the
FBI trying to, you know, dig up a little bit
more information. They already had quite a bit of information
by that point. I think their investigation has started in
the summer of twenty twenty three, and then in February
(23:59):
twenty four they formally publicly announced their investigation and they
put up a website to track tips and go from there.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
The FBI, the FBI did, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah, yeah, they called Cary. When Cary got back on
the phone with them, she said, actually, we're here with
Mike and abb and he says, oh yeah, I'm familiar
with with all of you.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Oh wow, oh yeah, yeah, are there specific people that
have been prosecuted or are indicted or anything.
Speaker 6 (24:33):
Nothing from the FBI has happened at all yet, and
you know, they're very tight lipped. They don't share with
us like what their plan is or what's going on.
We just we give them information sometimes for things that
we think are important, and they say, okay, thanks, that's
about it.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
That's how they are with everyone. Yeah, that's that's their standard.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
We're we're estimating it's going to be years probably before
anything actually happens. They're building a case, and we're really
hopeful that the current administration stuff doesn't mess with anything
going on with that investigation.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
But time will tell.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, lots of cuts too, right.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I know that they've done like thousands of interviews. I
think it's thousands. There was a time when tons of
people were getting interviewed and that seems to have slowed down.
So it's impossible to know where it all is. And
we certainly have some cases where we're like this one
would be good to prosecute. It's all over the place.
It's egregious. There's lots of people who want to, you know, talk,
(25:37):
and it doesn't seem like anything's happening, and I think
that's frustrating for a lot of people. But we also
know that this goes really slowly, so they're not going
to probably pick off one person at a time. You know,
that kind of gives everybody else the idea that they
need to you know, that it's serious and maybe they
should flee. So it's possible that they're building a case
(26:00):
that will come together very quickly at the end, you
know that we'll see results very quickly, but I don't,
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Wow, Outside of the FBI, there's there's definitely other cases
happening across the world, even but certainly in the United
States and Canada is ones that we kind of know
the most about, and those are you know, within their
whatever jurisdiction they're in. But our our our community is
(26:26):
definitely getting a lesson in just how badly the justice
system handles sexual abuse cases. So, you know, there's there's
been a few cases where they they got off, they
didn't get any punishment, and it's not because those things
didn't happen. It's because it's really hard to prove that
(26:49):
something happened in a room with closed doors where there's
only two people that know what happened.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, that's so, that's so hard.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Yeah, and most of these cases are now outside of
the Statute of Limitations because the church blocked the process
for you know, people to report, because the church had
this influence to cover things up and convince people not
to report, which is a form of cover up. They
prevented them from being able to do anything within their
statute of limitations. So now the vast majority of these
(27:22):
reports aren't actionable legally anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Right, Damn.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
I was just going to say, I think, isn't like
one of the most prolific sex offenders. Isn't his name
Robert And wasn't isn't he an Oregon and was a
worker or Seattle or something like that, Coryfield.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
Yeah, there is Robert Corfield. He was He was in Montana,
and he was one that was transferred from Canada to
Montana because of what he've been doing.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
And we don't really know how prolific he was, necessarily
we have only heard of a couple, I think a
couple known survivors. But he's notorious.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
He's notorious, Okay, I mean I just know that there
was one that was, like I read it in a
newspaper that they were like, he's one of the most
prolific in the state.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And I was like, okay, was.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
It in Alaska. Oh, I'm from Washington too, so that's
oh shoot, what's his.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Name, Richard Schouber?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Thank you, That's what I'm thinking about, Richard Schroueber. And
he casually said a quote I think it was him,
perhaps it was Robert.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yes, that was like.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Most of these children didn't even know I was doing it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, it's crazy that he said that to the media. Yeah,
like what that is? It's insane. And the same with
Robert Corfield.
Speaker 6 (28:42):
He also gave he talked to the BBC and was
basically like, yeah, I did this stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
They didn't. We can't do anything about it. Statute of
limitations adel.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
But they feel they feel invincible because they've been treated
that way their whole lives. They don't live a normal
human life, and.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
You can see that in the letters that they released,
where you were like, oh my god, you've never been
held accountable for a single thing. This religion has never
been made public obviously because you just send the craziest
shit I've ever read in my life, and now it's
being all released and they're realizing it.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
But these are people have never been held. I'm laughing
because I start breaking things.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah. Yeah, there's another one that's worth mentioning. An extremely
prolific abuser that he has a court case actually coming
up in December, and he's had a trial before. He
was found guilty in early twenty twenty three, and he
was given a ten year deferred sentence, which means that
he doesn't spend a day in jail unless he reoffends
in the next ten years, and then he gets ten years.
I think that was the deal. And turns out that
(29:44):
the police at actually ghosted a previous report that is
now in like going through the courts, and so he
has a trial coming up in December. This is Hodgy Holgerson,
and I think it's really important to get his name
out there because the access that he has had to
children is unfathomable. I mean, he's been involved with four
h clubs and he's been around the entire country and
(30:04):
so we're really one that's one that really gives us
gives us some pain.
Speaker 6 (30:09):
Well, especially because we personally have at least twelve survivors
that have told their story to us, and if there's twelve.
How many more are there out there?
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yeah, the way that he's done a lot of this, well,
some of it has been very very severe, very severe
abuse towards very young children, and a lot of it
is just like this Richard Chober type of thing where
you just get an opportunity here and there to do
something small that like people might even see and go,
he want to do that right in front of me.
(30:41):
So that can't be intentional, right, and so yeah, one
of those extremely prolific classic pedophiles.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Oh my god, we asked this, But it's been in
a while, so I'm curious, like, have more people started
leaving since this has come out? Or is everyone digging
their heels in what's where's that all landing?
Speaker 6 (31:01):
I think it's it varies by region or in an area,
but yes, people are pouring out of the church right now.
So our group has about six thousand people right now,
and we've been tracking people who have left our Facebook group. Yes,
we're tracking people on the admin side who have left
(31:22):
the church since March of twenty twenty three, and we're
at about thirteen hundred, so we're almost like a fifth
of our group is comprised of people who have left
just in the last two years.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
And our Facebook group is just one of many platforms
out there for x two x two members right now.
So you know, I think a very conservative estimate is
that ten thousand have left, and it's most likely more
than that.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Well, yeah, because each of those people in our group
that has left has a family typically right right, there
are some places in which they've had to consolidate meetings
and consolidate fields. There's been a huge loss of workers
due to both allegations and workers leaving on principle. So yeah,
there are big downsizing pains going on in the church
(32:07):
right now, and they like to pretend that it's not painful,
but when you listen to their sermons right now at conventions,
you can tell it's it's living rent free in their
heads at all times.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Right now, what do you guys think the future of
the churches? Do you think it'll be able to survive this,
because it's not like they be recruiting really.
Speaker 6 (32:28):
Yeah, I think I think they'll survive for at least
a few more generations just because you know, but it's
going to it's going to dwindle very very quickly.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I don't know. How you know.
Speaker 6 (32:40):
I've talked to my brother about this, and this is,
you know, one of the reasons that he that he
left the ministry is how do you evangelize and try
to bring people into a church when they can find
out all this information about it on the internet. You
would have to swindle them into joining the church at
this point, and.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
On a moral basis, when you're not sure that they're
going to be safe there. Right I think that the
future of the church might also, like there are a
lot of factors that could influence just how quickly it dwindles.
So right now, the average agent the church is pretty
darn high. There's a lot of old people, and there's
not so many young people. And I think that also
(33:22):
as a society, our young people are moving away from
fundamentalist religions, and so we know that a lot of
the young people that are in the two y two's
right now will eventually not be there. And so there,
I think it's going to dwindle very quickly for a while.
But I also think that things like a more severe
than expected response by the FBI, a more sweeping response
(33:45):
than we expect, could definitely influence people feeling even legally
safe in that environment, Like we have heard of FBI
agents saying that, like, I would not be anywhere near
this group right now if I were you. But people
have always felt safe and invincible from the world, you know. There,
(34:07):
so there are a lot of people that are staying
and doubling down.
Speaker 6 (34:10):
Something that is kind of worth mentioning is In April
twenty twenty five, we were able to release notes taking
from an overseer meeting that.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
God my gosh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 6 (34:24):
Yes, So that was a really interesting look into what's
going through their minds. And you know this this was
a zoom call amongst overseers across the world, and it
was really a good old boys club when they were
just talking amongst themselves. But it's interesting because they did
talk a lot in this meeting about what outsiders were
(34:49):
saying about them, and so it's definitely top of mind,
you know. Of course, they talked about it in a
way of like, well, this is what they say about us,
that's not true, even though it literally was true, you know,
And so there was just all kinds of things, you know,
they talked about the people that are leaving. They mentioned
(35:10):
that they were like the garbage that needed to be
taken out anyway, and things like that.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, they laughed about things like people saying that instead
of jetting all these workers all over the world, maybe
they should spend that money right now in Survivors. They
all chuckled about that.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, what a funny joke.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, hilarious.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
And at the beginning of this meeting, they literally were
talking about how to get a perpetrator back in the meeting.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
And this meeting was kind of can can you tell
a little bit about how we have this transcript? I mean,
I know we don't know who did it, but how
did that bach happen?
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Yeah? So someone was able to call in to the
meeting and they were unsure of the phone number, and
everybody checked their address book and it wasn't there. So
this person eventually was able to get in by claiming
to be John. And there are some John's high up
(36:11):
in leadership, and that's apparently all they needed to let
this person in to their good old boys club was It's.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
John, a zoom name that said John. Yeah, so this
person just recorded it. Wow, and a little inside look
at what these people are talking about, and it is dire.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
And there was a lawsuit or legal action threatened vaguely
in the direction. They didn't even send it to us.
They sent it to Wings, which is a website that
posted it from us, even though our name was on
the notes. They don't even know who belongs to who,
but they threatened wings or they implied that there could
(36:53):
be legal action, but they don't know who the person
is who got the notes, And instead of removing it
like they had requested, Wings instead kept the notes up
there and put the threat letter up there. So they
really took the full send option, and I loved that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Is there anything I mean, I want to know if
there's anything else current that members AX members should be
aware of, and then just any advice that you have
with people who are contemplating leaving or are on the
fence a little bit.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Oh man, it's hard right now because a lot of
people that are staying have kind of they've kind of
justified where they sit, and I mean, leaving at this
point is also kind of hard to because you didn't
leave when all the terrible stuff came out. So I
think they're kind of hitting a line there where there's
what is that word, they've got some sunk cost, you know. Yeah,
(37:49):
So that's hard. I mean we've even been contacted by
by like teenagers who are like, I don't want to
be in this, but I'm forced to go. And you
have to be really delicate. I'm the one that talks
to them if needed, you know, just to just to
be extra careful. But really it's just hang in there.
(38:09):
You know. We can't encourage them to We can't really
give them a lot of advice except just moral support.
And that's hard.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah. The kids.
Speaker 6 (38:18):
The kids are definitely a hard, hard one to to navigate,
and they don't really have a choice, Like, you know,
what choice do you have when if you leave you
might be kicked out of the house by your parents.
It's there's definitely precedent for that. For the adults that
are thinking about leaving, it's a it's a really hard
(38:41):
thing because you you potentially lose your family, You undoubtedly
lose some segment of your friends. I think the only
kind of encouragement that I would give to two people
who are in that position who are thinking about leaving,
is there's a massive community out here for you now.
And so whether it's our group or or there's a
(39:02):
ton of other groups out there now that are that
are all set up for, you know, supporting people as
they as they leave this church, and so yeah, there's
definitely people here that are have gone through it all
and can can support you.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Yeah, I would just encourage them to talk to somebody,
talk to somebody who who left and listened. Sincerely, it's
not as scary as they make it out to be.
In fact, people leave and they go, oh, this is
nothing like they said it was, right. I was far
less safe in that than I feel now. I And
(39:38):
for people who leave and continue to and change their
religious beliefs but continue to stay in some form of Christianity,
they all say I left and it got better, like
my faith was so much more real afterward. And that
makes sense because you're no longer building your faith in
(39:59):
the church. You're all of a sudden starting to build
your faith in your actual religion. Right. Yeah. I mean,
it's just not as scary as they make it out
to be. But you can't believe that until you step
into it.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
I cannot thank y'all enough for not only coming on
the show, but for creating the space.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I'm going to cry. I don't know where I would
be without the group, So I'm just so grateful.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Thanks Megan, thanks.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
And thank you guys for coming on. What's the name
of the Facebook group?
Speaker 6 (40:30):
So the Facebook group is called the X two y
two Support Group. It's currently open just to ex members
or people who are in the process of leaving, but
we don't just generally allow the general public to jump in.
We have a public Facebook page that we have used
for sharing all the updates and perpetrator allegations and things
(40:52):
like that.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
That's two y two Church updates on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Cool. Thank you both, and thanks for all the work
that you've been doing. Have we missed anything or are we.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Mike, did you mention the TikTok?
Speaker 6 (41:03):
Yeah, so we're on TikTok making x two by two content.
It's at our two x two story.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
And we haven't done done a lot recently. We kind
of took a break over the summer, but there's a
lot of content before that and we will eventually get
some more.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
But up, well, thank you all so much, and I'll
be talking to you on the internet soon.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Thanks, thank you very much for having us.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Thank you so much to Mike and Abby for coming on. Indeed,
it's good and also a little depressing to get an
update on where things are at with that case, because
obviously we want justice to move a little bit faster.
Is there anything you would like to add? Yeah, come
join us on the X two by two Facebook group
(41:46):
if you are a former two by two or Wings
for Truth if you're just interested in learning more information,
if you need some support, those are some places to
come find it. And Mike and Abby you started at
TikTok that I'm just started following, and I am curious
to see how things keep unfolding. Indeed, thank you so
(42:08):
much for listening to another episode of Trust Me. We
have some big news. There is now merch available, brand
new merch. That's right, It's exactly right. You can visit
www dot exactly rightstore dot com in order by December fourteenth,
Oh my god, Christmas delivery. Imagine seeing somebody and one
(42:30):
of our merch shirts. I'm imagining it and I'm loving it.
I would die or hat or hat or hat also dead.
Dosas as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out
for rad flax, and never ever trust me. Bye, goodbye.
This has been an exactly Right production hosted by me
(42:52):
Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth our Senior producer is
ge Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
Our associate produce is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kottner.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church. Trust
Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and
Danielle Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at trust
Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts
Trust me?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Do you trust me?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Right?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Ever lead you astrayed?
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Trust?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This is the truth, the only truth. If anybody ever
tells you to just trust them, don't welcome to trust me.
The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two
advocates of support groups who've actually experienced it.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
I'm Lola Blong and I am Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes you are, Yes I am. Today's Part two with
our guests Mike and Abby Prussach, former members of Megan's cult,
the Two y twos also known as The Truth also
known as The Way, and Mike and Abby are also
moderators of the former two by two Facebook group. So
last week we talked to them about their upbringings in
the secretive Christian sect and how they met. This week,
we're going to talk to them about what led them
(00:44):
to start the support group for ex members and the
explosive revelation about a church leader's sexual abuse, and just
to clarify, this is not my cult. The former former
I was a member. Yes, born men, now you started it? Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
We'll dig into more of the bi investigation of the
widespread sexual abuse, the scope of the group's internal cover ups,
and how they moved perpetrators around instead of contacting the
authorities and the number of people who've been leaving.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
As a result.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Before we jump in with them, Megan, I would love
to know your cultiest thing of the Wei. Well.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I have been reading about tech bros a lot lately,
as one does, as one does, and the new fad,
and it's probably not new. The new talk of the
town is an old fad. That is tech bros Are
getting facelifts. The quote is that you should never hire
someone over thirty too techow.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So, I mean, the advance.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Of facelifts are probably getting so good because of these
men needing to look like they're thirty, and sometimes they
actually do.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Some of the work is pretty incredible. I mean we've
seen face faces have gotten really good. They've gotten incredibly
used to be kind of a kind of a what
is the word that I want you would be cursed
to looking weird forever. Yeah, they're that quinde of like
you can either look old or weird. Yeah, now you
can look pretty young. And Jenner's face a little amazing.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, I've seen it without the filter and it is
a bit different, but it's still I mean, let's not
name some of the younger actresses that have recently and
they look great. They look and bully, I understand the
instincts same. So but you know, so we're not facelifts shaming.
I'm not gonna name anybody, but it is weird for
(02:43):
men or it's less common.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's less common. Thank you. Did I say it
was weird?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, that was wrong with me. It's less common for
you know, I think of like tech guys like Bill
Gates are like freaking nerds, like nerds, yeah yeah, and
and not getting face lifts. I mean it is. It's
interesting how this area that was traditionally a nerd zone,
where it was like kind of the whole thing was
(03:08):
that you weren't cool y has kind of evolved into
this like we're the hot guys, the ridge guys, and
having to do a lot of plastic surgery to maintain that.
The and like we talked about on the in Cell
episode with tem Squirrel, you know, the things that this
group of people in particular are like wemen, like a
(03:28):
big jaw and then like suddenly there's jaw surgeries. Well,
and with Arabella Sicardi too, we like it is actually
interesting to me because one of the things we talked
about with them in that episode was how typically with women,
the anti aging emphasis is on the external appearance, and
with men it's more on life extension than living forever.
So it's interesting to hear that this faction of men
(03:49):
are actually now also focusing on the external appearance. Yeah.
I mean, I'm looking at a tech bro right here.
His face, Louff looks great. I know, it sucks, It sucks.
I don't want us to feel like that looks great,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Yeah, I know I wish it looked worse. But he
looks incredible, really good. I'm sure he's just cash, just cash,
and in the checks.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I mean, it's a testament to agism, still seeing very
much rampant in our society. But I am.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I am really digging deeper into those cults of the
tech bro and it's a fascinating world. Yeah. I think
as the years go on, we're going to have a
lot more information to look back on and a lot
of Yeah, you know, I think it's just going to
be a very very interesting conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Definitely. Can I shamelessly self promo for a second, sure,
you guys, I made a music video about aging. Have
we talked about this on here at all? I think
so it's the woman dancing, yes, yeah, did we talk
about it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, But go on, Okay, I
don't remember talking about it, okay, because I have been
(05:01):
frustrated with this trope and horror movies, because I'm a
horror filmmaker, but I'm also a music hers. She got
shut up, Lola, But I have been corustrated with this
trope of like the old woman is like scary as
she's a monster because she has like low hanging boobs
and wrinkles on her face, and it's like such a comment.
It's called whatever. It's a subgenre called hag's ploitation is
(05:22):
the trope. But I did make a music video starring
an older dancer who we aged up to look even older,
and the whole video is her defying this expectation that
she will be scary simply because she looks old. Anyway,
I was just trying to interrogate this idea that like
aging is inherently scary or something to be afraid of,
(05:42):
and it's called Dear Sarah, if anyone's interested. That is
my spiel on aging. But of course, as I say this,
I am actively putting retinol on my face every now
and getting, you know, like, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You suggested a face feel to me. That almost murdered me.
I'm going to do more.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Oh man, that was the worst in my life. That
was the worst day. What about you? What's your cultist thing?
Uh So? I found an article that two of our
previous guests are quoted in, and it is a huff
Post article called The One Thing. All though this is
a misleading title because it's multiple things. The one thing
(06:18):
called experts want you to do when talking to your
MAGA relatives. Oh and see Passen is of course the
main interview, and as well as Danielle and mastienek Young
and I feel like I'm saying her name wrong but
hopefully not so. First thing it says is ask a
good question. This is something we have. We've talked about
all of this, but sometimes it's good to just have
(06:39):
a refresher because there's so much division and polarization right
now in family, Yennie, You've got to go back to
the fundamentals. Yeah, So ask a good question instead of
telling them why they're wrong, Ask why they believe what
they believe. Get curious, ask from a place of kindness
and empathy, like, that's interesting, what's important to you about that?
(06:59):
What do you think of that? So are you saying
that you believe in that? Because of X? The curiosity?
And also it can be helpful for people to have
to really think about why they believe what they believe,
because so often we don't think about why we believe
what we believe. We just sort of assume we believe it.
So when you have to say it in your own words,
that also can be like a challenge, like to question
(07:20):
whether or not that's yeah, understand.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
And on the flip side, like, I'm sure every single
person alive believes something untrue. So maybe a family member
asks you a question and you can explore your own beliefs.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
From a gentle place. And like I have I have
a you know, we all know I'm quite left, but
I have conservative family members most I would say conservative
family members outside of my immediate family, and we are
able to talk about what we believe because we know
that we love each other and we're coming from a
place of wanting to know. But the only reason why
(07:52):
I can tell them what I believe is because they
are showing me curiosity and vice versa, like if it's
coming when it comes from that attacking place, it just
like it just goes nowhere and then we just get angry.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Does it ever change your views or like move you
in any sort of way.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Not necessarily, because I generally am the things I believe
I read a lot about, but I will say like
it gives me a lot more empathy for why people
believe what they believe and what the perspective that they're
coming from. And I find over and over again that
we share so many of the same core beliefs and values,
(08:31):
but we are being fed really really different information around it.
And I have come to middle ground with family members certainly,
although of course there are some issues that are just
like too spicy and we are not able to get there.
But it depends on it depends on I'm talking to. Yeah.
The article also says come prepared with your own gentle rebuttal.
This one's hard because I really think that the immediate
(08:54):
rebuttal can be tricky. That was a Daniella recommendation. She
suggested some ways you can respond, saying, can I share
why I'm concerned? Would you be open to reading a
source I trust in my experience, people aren't super responsive
still when it's immediate when you're because it still feels
(09:15):
like you're trying to debunk them. I haven't really encountered
that being effective, but in certain cases when the person
is curious, yeah, definitely. And then it says no, your
own triggers and theirs, so that you're not just evolving
into conflict. And then it says, be prepared to safely disengage.
I love you too much to argue with you about this.
I've learned that these that's cute. Yeah, I've learned that
(09:37):
these conversations don't feel good or helpful to me, you know.
I want to focus on connecting with you. And then,
of course the final one, which we talk about all
the time. Keep a tether to your previous relationship, keep
them in your life even when it's a challenge. Yep,
unless they're unless they are abusing you or or just
you know, being outwardly hateful or something. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And I will say that the two by twos have
a nice little system go going on that really de
escalates things like this, because we have so many board
games because we didn't grow up with television, so like
we just go straight.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
To a game like if their conflict is rising, you
just play games. Yeah, that's kind of cool, or like
kind yeah what games?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
You know, there's a game that we're really obsessed with,
to the point that one of my cousins has like
a headlamp with a light on it because it's like
a color game where you try to explain a color
and everybody puts it.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
I don't know what this game is called, but everyone
puts a headlamp on. Everyone doesn't put a head lamp on,
just headlamp on. Just my cousin who is very very
competitive about this game. Okay, But but all the normal
games that one would go to is what we jump.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
To, Oh like Monopoly, Yeah, Taboo? Yeah, I love Taboo.
Best game.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
There's one called God what is it called. We go
to it a lot, but you know, as something that
you can kind of do a.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Group nope, where you can disengage, yeah, instead of instead
of devolving into conflict. God, it's so hard. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
And I'm going home for the holidays. Family is still
in the system that we're discussing today, So I totally
understand how holiday stuff can be awkward.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It truly can. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yeah, and I still want to go because I love
my family and it's like a very complex little thing.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
So yeah, it's so tough. I'm just thinking back to
something that happened with me this summer where I got
I got really I was struggling to keep mich cool.
It just happened. It's going to happen, yep, and it's
going to happen in the other direction too. They also feel, yeah, yeah,
it's it's wild, but it's it's worth keeping the communication
(11:55):
lines open and education and curiosity and compassion. Look at
those three. See that I just pulled out my butthole. Okay,
that you pulled out of your bee three seas from
your three seas from my bee. It's a butthole. That's
that's trademark, actually, guys. Yeah, and we'll keep reminding y'all
(12:17):
every year before the holidays, Yes we will. So do
not explode with your family over politics or religion.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, but anyway, today's guests, Mike and Abby are absolutely incredible.
They are a great example of staying connected to people
and keeping that line of dialogue open and what it
can bring, which is an amazing community that's helped so
many to bitoes. I really appreciate them taking the time
and the information that they have so painstake in me
(12:48):
collected and share. And we do talk in this episode
about sexual abuse and sexual misconducts, So take care listening.
Shall we talk to them? Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
So you end up leaving the church, what leads you
to start this Facebook group that you run?
Speaker 6 (13:15):
So Kyle and Cary, we had been friends with them
throughout all this whole period, So we left in twenty ten.
They left like around the pandemic, so around twenty twenty one,
and where they were one of the friendships that actually lasted,
you know, despite us not being in the church for
that long, and you know, around twenty twenty it kind
(13:38):
of broke for them and they decided to leave. And
it was really kind of a I think they realized
just how lonely it was leaving that community, and so
they asked us if we wanted to start a support
group on Facebook, and we said, yep, let's do it.
So in twenty twenty two January, I think we started
(14:01):
that group together and yeah, it grew at a moderate
pace at that point, and by twenty twenty three March
of twenty twenty three, it was up to about nine
hundred members, which is probably about the point that things
are gonna Well, we've already talked to Colin Cary about
all of that, so you can.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Give us a refresher. Yeah, yeah, please.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
So in March or twenty twenty three, allegations came to
light about Dean Brewer, who was an overseer in organ
and we got our hands on an internal letter that
was describing his abuse and put it online and all
hell broke loose.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Of note is that he had passed away almost a
year before.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And when we say abuse, remind us what we're talking about.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
So we're talking about child sexual abuse and sexual assault
on adult women. And yeah, so it's really hard to
describe how that broke the damn, but it just did.
Like even on that first post of that letter, there
were people disclosing their abuse in the comments already, and
(15:11):
it just kept on coming. Just hundreds and hundreds of
survivors started telling their stories, and you know, sometimes it
was in the comments, it was Facebook posts, it was
just people really just I think there was an opportunity
for the truth to come out, and everybody really really
(15:33):
took it and ran with it.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So there's been just so much has happened since then.
I mean, I remember when you first were like, there's
a Facebook group for two by two. It is crazy
how much has happened since then. What has come to
light maybe the nut shell version and then we can
kind of talk about more recent developments, if that makes sense.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
Yeah, So what has come to light is literally over
a thousand perpetrators of sexual abuse and whether it be
child sexual abuse or a sexual assault on adults.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
And these are just cases that have been disclosed to
various places in the community.
Speaker 6 (16:10):
And this is in a church that, prior to COVID
was around seventy five thousand based on good estimates. Obviously,
we don't have any solid information about the numbers in
the church because they don't publish them.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
They don't I don't even know if they keep them.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
And so yeah, over one thousand perpetrators is quite a
significant percentage.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And this is happening like in people's homes. These are
people of authority and there's just like a power dynamic
and also like they're in the family space, right.
Speaker 6 (16:44):
Yeah, those allegations are based on our data. Between thirty
five and forty percent are minister's workers. And then the
remaining are elders just members. Okay, Yeah, so it kind
of spans across all those demographics, and.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
For most of those cases, somebody knew and didn't do anything.
So the percentage of abusers in a population, you know,
you usually kind of weed them out as you find out,
and they never did. So the percentage of abusers in
the population just kind of seems like it just grew
and prospered and they were just typically moved to different areas,
(17:25):
or the survivor was just kind of isolated and they left,
or they were told not to say anything, or they
were revictimized in a way that made them feel unsafe
say anything. But then when you feel a nice the world,
they stay in the church and it's just a horrible mess.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Yeah, victims were told to forgive, you know, weaponized forgiveness,
and then at the same time, it's like there was
no forgiveness if you cut your bangs or war pants
as a woman, right, So it just this very ripe
place for abuse is fostered.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I mean, you couldn't. It's almost like it was purposefully
manicured that way.
Speaker 6 (18:07):
Yeah, having the minister is staying in the homes, even
in some cases sleeping in the same rooms as the
kids when they would stay.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
At home, Especially in previous generations, that was a lot
more common.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, it's terrifying. And so let's say an incident happens
and it's reported to someone.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yeah, let's say like one of the workers does something
to somebody and the elder or their parents bring it
to an elder or an overseer.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I think usually you guys would know more than me.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
But it's kind of a conversation of like, Okay, we
talked to them, let's move on to the forgiveness process,
and if it's.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Particularly bad, we're going to move them to.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
A new area where no one knows that this happened
at all, and they'll just start staying in new kids' houses.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Is that a good paraphrase?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (18:59):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like how many were
actually reported to the authorities, and I can maybe find
like a handful of instances where where an overseer found
out about abuse and actually reported it.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, that's that's not a thing really.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
In fact, I mean they even put out communications that
told people not to and it told they told people to.
What was it they needed to think?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
They said to it.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
If you find out about abuse, tell a a therapist,
so that then the onus is on the therapist to report,
not on you the worker to have to report.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Right, but the therapist doesn't have enough info to do
anything about it anyway. And it was only if you
absolutely have to, So it was literally, don't report it
unless you really have to, then maybe tell somebody else
and just like then you can wipe your hands and
and if they feel obligated to report it, they will
(20:03):
without very much information.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And I'm assuming the thinking is similar to what it
often is in situations like this, where they don't want
a bad reputation. Is that kind of.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Well, they don't want any reputation. They don't want They
didn't want to be known for a church that has
the one and only way to heaven. It's really strange
how much they didn't want to be known. They they
want everything to stay secret. They don't want any information
to get into the wrong hands. You know, they told
people to at times, they told people to burn or
shred the lists the worker lists after they're done with
(20:37):
that year. Never really explained why, but just in case
they get in the wrong hands, or to not to
destroy your notes after you're done with them, that type
of thing. They really didn't want to be known as
an entity.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
Right, So that there was definitely like the preservation of
the church, the church's image, at least for the people
that were in the church, right. But also they really
believe that if people were cast out of meetings, were
told not to attend, that they were going to be
sending them to hell. And so when you literally feel
(21:13):
like you are so you know, say an overseers in
that position of authority, he literally believes that if he
tells this person they can't go to meeting anymore, that
that's the equivalent of sending them to hell, because meeting
attendance is required for salvation in their eyes.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Wow, I didn't know that. That's fascinating. But at the
same token, I do know people who have been asked
to not attend meetings or asked not to speak at meetings.
That's another thing. We're the ones who speak at meetings.
It's the whole thing because they addressed too flamboyantly. So
there is a willingness to lose a person who doesn't
(21:51):
look the part, but there's no willingness to lose a
person who might be doing crazy things, but they're kind
of like fitting the part right well.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And the idea is that you can repent from things
that you've done in the past, but if you're willfully
participating now, then you're not repenting. Right. So if you're
wearing pants to meeting right now, that's a current choice,
and if you were to stop doing that, you could
stay in meetings, right. And so for somebody who has
hurt a person, it's in the past, right And if
they say all, I've repented and the workers have decided
(22:23):
to accept that, like, it's not the same thing as
choosing to participate in gay relationships, you know what I mean.
That's their justification is that you are continuing to choose
it and act on.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
That it's a past transgression.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Yeah, And of course, as we've found out, they're repentant.
I'm putting it in quotation marks, but continue to do it.
It's just the secret.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So it isn't earrings that a woman is wearing an
our head that we're not allowed to do. It's a
secret that they're able to get away with. Are there
any numbers on like how many people were just kind
of moved and then perpetrated again in the new area.
Speaker 6 (22:59):
We have data that probably could could be compiled about that,
but I don't have the numbers readily available. I would
say it's definitely in the dozens, if not higher, of
ones that were definitely moved from place to place after
their allegations were known.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
What's happening right now, because aren't there haven't there been
like a ton of ongoing authority investigation stuff?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah? So in what was it?
Speaker 6 (23:37):
At Thanksgiving twenty twenty three, we were at Kyle and
Carry's house for Thanksgiving and Cary got a call from
a random number and it turned out it was the
FBI trying to, you know, dig up a little bit
more information. They already had quite a bit of information
by that point. I think their investigation has started in
the summer of twenty twenty three, and then in February
(23:59):
twenty four they formally publicly announced their investigation and they
put up a website to track tips and go from there.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
The FBI, the FBI did, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yeah, yeah, they called Cary. When Cary got back on
the phone with them, she said, actually, we're here with
Mike and abb and he says, oh yeah, I'm familiar
with with all of you.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Oh wow, oh yeah, yeah, are there specific people that
have been prosecuted or are indicted or anything.
Speaker 6 (24:33):
Nothing from the FBI has happened at all yet, and
you know, they're very tight lipped. They don't share with
us like what their plan is or what's going on.
We just we give them information sometimes for things that
we think are important, and they say, okay, thanks, that's
about it.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
That's how they are with everyone. Yeah, that's that's their standard.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
We're we're estimating it's going to be years probably before
anything actually happens. They're building a case, and we're really
hopeful that the current administration stuff doesn't mess with anything
going on with that investigation.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
But time will tell.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, lots of cuts too, right.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I know that they've done like thousands of interviews. I
think it's thousands. There was a time when tons of
people were getting interviewed and that seems to have slowed down.
So it's impossible to know where it all is. And
we certainly have some cases where we're like this one
would be good to prosecute. It's all over the place.
It's egregious. There's lots of people who want to, you know, talk,
(25:37):
and it doesn't seem like anything's happening, and I think
that's frustrating for a lot of people. But we also
know that this goes really slowly, so they're not going
to probably pick off one person at a time. You know,
that kind of gives everybody else the idea that they
need to you know, that it's serious and maybe they
should flee. So it's possible that they're building a case
(26:00):
that will come together very quickly at the end, you
know that we'll see results very quickly, but I don't,
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Wow, Outside of the FBI, there's there's definitely other cases
happening across the world, even but certainly in the United
States and Canada is ones that we kind of know
the most about, and those are you know, within their
whatever jurisdiction they're in. But our our our community is
(26:26):
definitely getting a lesson in just how badly the justice
system handles sexual abuse cases. So, you know, there's there's
been a few cases where they they got off, they
didn't get any punishment, and it's not because those things
didn't happen. It's because it's really hard to prove that
(26:49):
something happened in a room with closed doors where there's
only two people that know what happened.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, that's so, that's so hard.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Yeah, and most of these cases are now outside of
the Statute of Limitations because the church blocked the process
for you know, people to report, because the church had
this influence to cover things up and convince people not
to report, which is a form of cover up. They
prevented them from being able to do anything within their
statute of limitations. So now the vast majority of these
(27:22):
reports aren't actionable legally anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Right, Damn.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
I was just going to say, I think, isn't like
one of the most prolific sex offenders. Isn't his name
Robert And wasn't isn't he an Oregon and was a
worker or Seattle or something like that, Coryfield.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
Yeah, there is Robert Corfield. He was He was in Montana,
and he was one that was transferred from Canada to
Montana because of what he've been doing.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
And we don't really know how prolific he was, necessarily
we have only heard of a couple, I think a
couple known survivors. But he's notorious.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
He's notorious, Okay, I mean I just know that there
was one that was, like I read it in a
newspaper that they were like, he's one of the most
prolific in the state.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And I was like, okay, was.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
It in Alaska. Oh, I'm from Washington too, so that's
oh shoot, what's his.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Name, Richard Schouber?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Thank you, That's what I'm thinking about, Richard Schroueber. And
he casually said a quote I think it was him,
perhaps it was Robert.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yes, that was like.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Most of these children didn't even know I was doing it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, it's crazy that he said that to the media. Yeah,
like what that is? It's insane. And the same with
Robert Corfield.
Speaker 6 (28:42):
He also gave he talked to the BBC and was
basically like, yeah, I did this stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
They didn't. We can't do anything about it. Statute of
limitations adel.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
But they feel they feel invincible because they've been treated
that way their whole lives. They don't live a normal
human life, and.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
You can see that in the letters that they released,
where you were like, oh my god, you've never been
held accountable for a single thing. This religion has never
been made public obviously because you just send the craziest
shit I've ever read in my life, and now it's
being all released and they're realizing it.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
But these are people have never been held. I'm laughing
because I start breaking things.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah. Yeah, there's another one that's worth mentioning. An extremely
prolific abuser that he has a court case actually coming
up in December, and he's had a trial before. He
was found guilty in early twenty twenty three, and he
was given a ten year deferred sentence, which means that
he doesn't spend a day in jail unless he reoffends
in the next ten years, and then he gets ten years.
I think that was the deal. And turns out that
(29:44):
the police at actually ghosted a previous report that is
now in like going through the courts, and so he
has a trial coming up in December. This is Hodgy Holgerson,
and I think it's really important to get his name
out there because the access that he has had to
children is unfathomable. I mean, he's been involved with four
h clubs and he's been around the entire country and
(30:04):
so we're really one that's one that really gives us
gives us some pain.
Speaker 6 (30:09):
Well, especially because we personally have at least twelve survivors
that have told their story to us, and if there's twelve.
How many more are there out there?
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yeah, the way that he's done a lot of this, well,
some of it has been very very severe, very severe
abuse towards very young children, and a lot of it
is just like this Richard Chober type of thing where
you just get an opportunity here and there to do
something small that like people might even see and go,
he want to do that right in front of me.
(30:41):
So that can't be intentional, right, and so yeah, one
of those extremely prolific classic pedophiles.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Oh my god, we asked this, But it's been in
a while, so I'm curious, like, have more people started
leaving since this has come out? Or is everyone digging
their heels in what's where's that all landing?
Speaker 6 (31:01):
I think it's it varies by region or in an area,
but yes, people are pouring out of the church right now.
So our group has about six thousand people right now,
and we've been tracking people who have left our Facebook group. Yes,
we're tracking people on the admin side who have left
(31:22):
the church since March of twenty twenty three, and we're
at about thirteen hundred, so we're almost like a fifth
of our group is comprised of people who have left
just in the last two years.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
And our Facebook group is just one of many platforms
out there for x two x two members right now.
So you know, I think a very conservative estimate is
that ten thousand have left, and it's most likely more
than that.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Well, yeah, because each of those people in our group
that has left has a family typically right right, there
are some places in which they've had to consolidate meetings
and consolidate fields. There's been a huge loss of workers
due to both allegations and workers leaving on principle. So yeah,
there are big downsizing pains going on in the church
(32:07):
right now, and they like to pretend that it's not painful,
but when you listen to their sermons right now at conventions,
you can tell it's it's living rent free in their
heads at all times.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Right now, what do you guys think the future of
the churches? Do you think it'll be able to survive this,
because it's not like they be recruiting really.
Speaker 6 (32:28):
Yeah, I think I think they'll survive for at least
a few more generations just because you know, but it's
going to it's going to dwindle very very quickly.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I don't know. How you know.
Speaker 6 (32:40):
I've talked to my brother about this, and this is,
you know, one of the reasons that he that he
left the ministry is how do you evangelize and try
to bring people into a church when they can find
out all this information about it on the internet. You
would have to swindle them into joining the church at
this point, and.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
On a moral basis, when you're not sure that they're
going to be safe there. Right I think that the
future of the church might also, like there are a
lot of factors that could influence just how quickly it dwindles.
So right now, the average agent the church is pretty
darn high. There's a lot of old people, and there's
not so many young people. And I think that also
(33:22):
as a society, our young people are moving away from
fundamentalist religions, and so we know that a lot of
the young people that are in the two y two's
right now will eventually not be there. And so there,
I think it's going to dwindle very quickly for a while.
But I also think that things like a more severe
than expected response by the FBI, a more sweeping response
(33:45):
than we expect, could definitely influence people feeling even legally
safe in that environment, Like we have heard of FBI
agents saying that, like, I would not be anywhere near
this group right now if I were you. But people
have always felt safe and invincible from the world, you know. There,
(34:07):
so there are a lot of people that are staying
and doubling down.
Speaker 6 (34:10):
Something that is kind of worth mentioning is In April
twenty twenty five, we were able to release notes taking
from an overseer meeting that.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
God my gosh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 6 (34:24):
Yes, So that was a really interesting look into what's
going through their minds. And you know this this was
a zoom call amongst overseers across the world, and it
was really a good old boys club when they were
just talking amongst themselves. But it's interesting because they did
talk a lot in this meeting about what outsiders were
(34:49):
saying about them, and so it's definitely top of mind,
you know. Of course, they talked about it in a
way of like, well, this is what they say about us,
that's not true, even though it literally was true, you know,
And so there was just all kinds of things, you know,
they talked about the people that are leaving. They mentioned
(35:10):
that they were like the garbage that needed to be
taken out anyway, and things like that.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, they laughed about things like people saying that instead
of jetting all these workers all over the world, maybe
they should spend that money right now in Survivors. They
all chuckled about that.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, what a funny joke.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, hilarious.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
And at the beginning of this meeting, they literally were
talking about how to get a perpetrator back in the meeting.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
And this meeting was kind of can can you tell
a little bit about how we have this transcript? I mean,
I know we don't know who did it, but how
did that bach happen?
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Yeah? So someone was able to call in to the
meeting and they were unsure of the phone number, and
everybody checked their address book and it wasn't there. So
this person eventually was able to get in by claiming
to be John. And there are some John's high up
(36:11):
in leadership, and that's apparently all they needed to let
this person in to their good old boys club was It's.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
John, a zoom name that said John. Yeah, so this
person just recorded it. Wow, and a little inside look
at what these people are talking about, and it is dire.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
And there was a lawsuit or legal action threatened vaguely
in the direction. They didn't even send it to us.
They sent it to Wings, which is a website that
posted it from us, even though our name was on
the notes. They don't even know who belongs to who,
but they threatened wings or they implied that there could
(36:53):
be legal action, but they don't know who the person
is who got the notes, And instead of removing it
like they had requested, Wings instead kept the notes up
there and put the threat letter up there. So they
really took the full send option, and I loved that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Is there anything I mean, I want to know if
there's anything else current that members AX members should be
aware of, and then just any advice that you have
with people who are contemplating leaving or are on the
fence a little bit.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Oh man, it's hard right now because a lot of
people that are staying have kind of they've kind of
justified where they sit, and I mean, leaving at this
point is also kind of hard to because you didn't
leave when all the terrible stuff came out. So I
think they're kind of hitting a line there where there's
what is that word, they've got some sunk cost, you know. Yeah,
(37:49):
So that's hard. I mean we've even been contacted by
by like teenagers who are like, I don't want to
be in this, but I'm forced to go. And you
have to be really delicate. I'm the one that talks
to them if needed, you know, just to just to
be extra careful. But really it's just hang in there.
(38:09):
You know. We can't encourage them to We can't really
give them a lot of advice except just moral support.
And that's hard.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah. The kids.
Speaker 6 (38:18):
The kids are definitely a hard, hard one to to navigate,
and they don't really have a choice, Like, you know,
what choice do you have when if you leave you
might be kicked out of the house by your parents.
It's there's definitely precedent for that. For the adults that
are thinking about leaving, it's a it's a really hard
(38:41):
thing because you you potentially lose your family, You undoubtedly
lose some segment of your friends. I think the only
kind of encouragement that I would give to two people
who are in that position who are thinking about leaving,
is there's a massive community out here for you now.
And so whether it's our group or or there's a
(39:02):
ton of other groups out there now that are that
are all set up for, you know, supporting people as
they as they leave this church, and so yeah, there's
definitely people here that are have gone through it all
and can can support you.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Yeah, I would just encourage them to talk to somebody,
talk to somebody who who left and listened. Sincerely, it's
not as scary as they make it out to be.
In fact, people leave and they go, oh, this is
nothing like they said it was, right. I was far
less safe in that than I feel now. I And
(39:38):
for people who leave and continue to and change their
religious beliefs but continue to stay in some form of Christianity,
they all say I left and it got better, like
my faith was so much more real afterward. And that
makes sense because you're no longer building your faith in
(39:59):
the church. You're all of a sudden starting to build
your faith in your actual religion. Right. Yeah. I mean,
it's just not as scary as they make it out
to be. But you can't believe that until you step
into it.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
I cannot thank y'all enough for not only coming on
the show, but for creating the space.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I'm going to cry. I don't know where I would
be without the group, So I'm just so grateful.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Thanks Megan, thanks.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
And thank you guys for coming on. What's the name
of the Facebook group?
Speaker 6 (40:30):
So the Facebook group is called the X two y
two Support Group. It's currently open just to ex members
or people who are in the process of leaving, but
we don't just generally allow the general public to jump in.
We have a public Facebook page that we have used
for sharing all the updates and perpetrator allegations and things
(40:52):
like that.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
That's two y two Church updates on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Cool. Thank you both, and thanks for all the work
that you've been doing. Have we missed anything or are we.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Mike, did you mention the TikTok?
Speaker 6 (41:03):
Yeah, so we're on TikTok making x two by two content.
It's at our two x two story.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
And we haven't done done a lot recently. We kind
of took a break over the summer, but there's a
lot of content before that and we will eventually get
some more.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
But up, well, thank you all so much, and I'll
be talking to you on the internet soon.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Thanks, thank you very much for having us.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Thank you so much to Mike and Abby for coming on. Indeed,
it's good and also a little depressing to get an
update on where things are at with that case, because
obviously we want justice to move a little bit faster.
Is there anything you would like to add? Yeah, come
join us on the X two by two Facebook group
(41:46):
if you are a former two by two or Wings
for Truth if you're just interested in learning more information,
if you need some support, those are some places to
come find it. And Mike and Abby you started at
TikTok that I'm just started following, and I am curious
to see how things keep unfolding. Indeed, thank you so
(42:08):
much for listening to another episode of Trust Me. We
have some big news. There is now merch available, brand
new merch. That's right, It's exactly right. You can visit
www dot exactly rightstore dot com in order by December fourteenth,
Oh my god, Christmas delivery. Imagine seeing somebody and one
(42:30):
of our merch shirts. I'm imagining it and I'm loving it.
I would die or hat or hat or hat also dead.
Dosas as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out
for rad flax, and never ever trust me. Bye, goodbye.
This has been an exactly Right production hosted by me
(42:52):
Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth our Senior producer is
ge Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
Our associate produce is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kottner.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church. Trust
Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and
Danielle Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at trust
Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts
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