July 9, 2025 • 66 mins
Trust Me has joined Exactly Right Media. Hosts Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth will be back with new episodes on Wednesday, July 30th.
You’re a teenage girl in the late 60s, bouncing between communes, when a charismatic man and his group of young women welcome you with open arms. You were looking for a family, and now you’ve found one. In part one of an incredible interview, Dianne Lake, aka “Snake,” and her co-author Deborah Herman discuss growing up in 1960s counter-culture, the dark side of the sexual revolution, and what it was like becoming the youngest member of Charles Manson’s family. Stay tuned next week for part two, in which she tells Lola & Meagan how she learned about the murders! Original Airdate: 05/12/2021
Continue listening to Dianne Lake - The Manson Family, Part 2: The Tate-LaBianca Murders. (Original Airdate: 05/19/2021)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes
of trust Me. Diane Lake joined us in twenty twenty
one to discuss her experience with the Manson family. Then
scroll back in your podcast app to listen to part
two of this conversation with Diane from May nineteenth, twenty
twenty one. If you're new here followed the show so
you don't miss the July thirtieth th return of trust
Me on the Exactly Right Network.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Trust Me, trust.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I've never lived to you, and we never.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Have a live. If you think that one person has
all the answers, don't Welcome to trust Me, the podcast
about cults, extreme belief, and the abusive power from two
non Manson girls who've actually experienced it. I am Lola
Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. Today our guest are
Diane Lake and Deborah Herman. Diane Lake, aka Snake, was
the youngest member of the Manson family, and Deborah is
(00:51):
the co author of her book called Member of the Family,
My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside is Cold and
the Darkness that ended the Sixties. It is a great book.
Recommend it. I read it. It's episodes a two parter, folks,
because there's so much to the story. I cannot believe
that Diane was willing to come on and talk to us.
I am very grateful because this is fucking awesome. So
for everyone who hasn't read Helter Skelter and watch every
(01:13):
Charles Manson doc like I have, Diane did not have
anything to do with the Tate Lobyon com murders. In fact,
she was actually a key witness in the trial that
put Charlie in prison and the girls. She's going to
tell us about the tumult and trauma of her life
leading up to meeting Charles Manson, whom she knew as Charlie,
living in Los Angeles in the nineteen sixties with counterculture
parents and bouncing around communes with grown men going after her,
(01:34):
and what it was like when she first met Charles
Manson and his girls when she was just fourteen.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
We talk about what it was like being with Charlie
dumpster diving, stealing cars, taking lsd and having sex. And
in part two next week, we'll get into Charlie's downward
spiral as he grew paranoid and began talking about a
race war, learning about the murders, testifying at the trial,
and finally facing her trauma.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I just love Diane and Deborah, both of them. They're
so great. I feel like they're us in you know,
however many years like I feel like we will be them.
We're them, They're us were them. But before we get
into that, our cultiest thing this week, we have a
story we're going to talk about that's in the news.
We sure do, and if y'all haven't heard about it,
it's kind of crazy. Megan, do you want to begin?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I'm sure there is a woman named Amy who has
started going by Mother God. It appears that started happening
around twenty eighteen. She started an ascension cult, got some followers.
But why Amy is in the news this week is
because she was discovered in a basement, mummified dead, with
(02:42):
makeup around her eye sockets and wrapped in Christmas light.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Let's be clear it was glitter around her eye sockets.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Apologies.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Her name was Amy Carlson and her group was called
Love Has Won. Yeah, she often went by the name
Mother God. And there were just like seven people in
the house, right, yep, and two two kids just chilling,
so let's be clear. Her body was not recently dead.
Her body was so badly decomposed. Her body was so
(03:12):
dead they could not even get her fingerprints.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, she was extremely dead.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's not funny, it's just so, it's just like what
was happening. So the group apparently said that she ascended. Oh,
here's some of the quotes. So on Sunday May first,
a man who appeared to be a member of the
group positive video during which he said mom has ascended
and quote completed her contract, and then he said is
the mission over?
Speaker 4 (03:35):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Carlson apparently abandoned her family to teach spiritual intuitive ascension
sessions fifteen years ago, so not twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Oh apologies, my god.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I mean, she was on Doctor phil last year talking
about her group. But it doesn't look like they murdered her.
It looks like, according to one article, she was like
so obsessed with colloidal silver, which a lot of like
homeopathic medicine people, champion, But if you take too much
coloil silver, it can be poisonous.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I think.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Also it can turn you blue. If you google coloidal
silver blue person, you will see that it can actually
literally permanently turn your skin blue. Which is fucking insane.
But it suspected that she was selling it as a quote,
a cure for COVID nineteen, not a cure of my friends,
and she was taking so much of it and she
had cancer, so it seems like she probably died from
these different things and then they just created this shrine
(04:24):
around her body, don't you.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Think, right? Right? Yeah, for sure?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And honestly, I gotta say, I was listening to some
death positive podcast last year and they were talking about
this ritual, this like death positive ritual, and I don't
remember what it's actually called, but where someone who's like
your guide through your grief comes over and you actually
let the body remain in your home for three days
and like say goodbye to your loved one properly, and
(04:51):
you know, cover them in beautiful things, and the practitioner
or whatever basically keeps dry ice around so the body
doesn't decompose. Actually thought that that sounded really nice. I
don't know. We're so afraid of death and we're so
like we want to avoid it, we don't want to
see it, And there's something I think that's really cool
about like facing it and making it be this loving
(05:13):
goodbye ritual instead of like, get it out of here.
We don't want to see that. We don't want to
know about death, you know what I mean. So that
version of it, I actually think is really cool. Letting
the body fully decompose in this bedroom, in this house
you're all staying, and maybe not as much.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
But I don't understand. Was she mummified or was she decomposed?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I guess One article said mummified. One said her body
was so badly decomposed that they couldn't get her fingerprints.
So I don't know what that means. What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well, one of I don't know. One of the interesting
things about her is that she in a past life
was Jesus.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
And Marilyn Monroe. Wow, it's amazing how many people were
Marilyn Monroe in a past life and Jesus, Like, so
many people were them in a past life? Who was
it really? You know exactly which one? Who's the real one.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
One of the most traumatizing moments of my life is
when my cat psychic told me my last life was
on a tugboat with my cat as my husband.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Wait, who did I'm sorry? Can you repeat that?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah? My cat psychic told me that my last life
I was on a tugboat and my cat was my husband.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So you have a cat psychic?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Like a psychic who tells you about your your cat
right right, and well just cat.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I only had one session with her. It was a
birthday gift, and she was you know, what's the word,
uh not real?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah no, but I figured but uh.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Hearing that your past life was just like, wow, cool,
We're like stealing food from restaurants and then going and
hiding out on our tugboat. And I was just like, no,
tell me, I was Marilyn Monroe. Tell me, I was, Jesus,
what is this? This is crazy?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You know what I would love to do. I would
love to go to a bunch of psychic people who
tell you what your past lives were, and give them
all different information about myself and see the different like
variations of past lives that come up. Clearly, y'all, I
do not believe in past lives. I know that some
of our listeners might, I personally do not, nor do
(07:25):
I believe that you can determine what your cat's right
past life was.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I mean, I wish I didn't believe in past lives,
but I think I do so bummer but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
This lady, classic classic Meganaloa, Am I right?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, I mean past lives indicates that I'm going to
have to come back here again, which is just like lol.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
But yeah, I don't know, man, what do you think
you'll be in your next life?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Probably like West Kardashians child or.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Something that sounds right for you. I guess I'll come
back as jurtin the ground baby. Okay, okay, anyway, So,
can't wait to talk to Diane and Deborah. Are you ready? Ready,
Let's do it? Okay, here we go. Welcome Diane and
(08:31):
Deborah Dane Lake and Deborah Herman. So, Deborah, you are
the co author of Diane's book Member of the Family,
My story of Charles Manson, Life Inside his Could and
the Darkness that ended the Sixties. Can you both say
your names for our audience so they can tell the
difference between your voices.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Hello, I'm Diane Lake and I'm Deborah Herman and we're
used to like talking at the same time.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Thank you guys so much for being here. This is
truly a treat. I'm so excited to talk to you.
There's so much again into I finished your book today
and Wow, what an amazing story and so many just
incredible details. The way you painted the picture both of you, Yeah,
just really gave me a sense of what it felt
like to be there, which is something that you don't
really get to see very often. I feel like, often,
(09:17):
you know, stories focus on the graphic details and stuff,
but I really enjoyed reading about your life specifically. So
start us at the beginning. So, Diane, you originally grew
up in Minnesota. Your dad was an artist who was
sort of obsessed with this like California lifestyle and the
counterculture movement that was happening. Your family moves to Los Angeles,
and that's when your life kind of begins to change.
(09:39):
Can you tell us about how your parents started doing
LSD and the first time that you took LSD my.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Mom actually got high on marijuana with the couple down
the street in Santa Monica. My dad was obviously ripe
to try it as well, so they tried it and remember,
you know, lots of laughing, and you know, they it
seemed like it was a good thing for them. I
smoked some marijuana with my dad one day, and then
(10:10):
he really got into Timothy Larry's whole rap about this epiphany,
you know, this new world. You know, it was this
alternative kind of reality that LSD was like a mind
opener to, you know, some truths that he had been
looking for. And so the first trip I took, I
(10:30):
took with my two best friends in my living room
and we read Timothy Larry's Tibetan.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Book of a Dead And I just want to interject
A lot of people focus on that point in the
book where you know, Diane, I think you must have
been what thirteen is now taking LSD and her father's
in the other room. He knows it's happening, and they
consider it in the context of today. Right, So if
(11:01):
you're looking at it from the context of that time frame,
which we tried to create, that whole the feeling, the time,
the place, it was very different because the purpose of
the psychedelic movement was to expand your mind, to change
the world and to make it a better place. And
so for her parents, I mean, at least presumably it
(11:25):
was like a sacrament. They were really thinking was going
to be good for her.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Right, It wasn't like handing her heroin and being like
go get addicted to this now child. Yeah, totally different.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Very different.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It was.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
In fact, Lola, you make a very good point. In
today's world, we would perceive that act as tantamount to
giving your child heroin. But that's not what the times
were like at that time. It was tune in, turn on,
drop out, and it wasn't people using drugs. Yeah, some
people were. The psychedelic movie real use exactly. It wasn't
(12:03):
about that, like a drink and a beer or you
know right, it was about my expansion.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What I found fascinating about it all is in the
beginning of the book just how completely different your life
was from anything like that. You know, you and your
mom are like on the sewing machine and cooking, and
suddenly it's this entirely different world. And I just can't
even imagine what that must have felt like.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I know, I have to give my mom a lot
of credit. I mean, she really trusted my dad and
she trusted God. I mean, she really felt like she
had seen an angel at the end of her bed,
you know, telling her everything was going to be okay.
When we were planning this dropping out because you know,
we've had a big yard sale and sold everything and
(12:47):
my dad had been converting a bread truck, which is
like a step van, you know, like a FedEx step
vand that you see.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Now, can you explain what dropping out means?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Oh? Back then, dropping out meant that you gave up
pretty much, gave up all your worldly possessions and you know,
just lived on a day to day basis, you know,
trusting God basically for your food and clothing. And you know,
at least in my parents' mind, that's what they were
(13:19):
aiming for. My dad was a big proponent of non materialism.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Because it was anti establishment. So many social changes were
happening during those years, during the late sixties, middle to
late sixties, culminating of course in nineteen sixty nine with
the crimes. But at that time, everybody it was the
Flower Children. They were all gathering at hate Ashbury because
(13:48):
that's what the LSD was doing. It was creating this
sense of connecting with one another, and so they were
just letting life come and they were getting out of
the establishment, which.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Is awesome, Like LSD. I love LSD. It's great, it's awesome.
Like what, yeah, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
I don't want to take it. I don't want to
do it.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
There's a line.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
But yeah, but that was you know people again. You
can't look at it through the lens of twenty twenty one. Yeah,
you have to look at it as what social changes
were happening right before the sixties and the changing tide.
You had a very repressed post war society in the fifties.
(14:33):
I have an imprint in my publishing company of TV classics,
and I watch the old shows. You know, her Mother
and Diane. They were like the role of women and
they were doing the women stuff and everything was changing, right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
The descriptions of being in Los Angeles in the sixties
sound so exciting. Yeah, I mean, you're going to these
love ins, You're seeing the Beatles at your stadium, You're
hanging out in Laurel Canyon and with all the hippies,
and everyone's like happy and loving, and at least on
the surface, it's like you're living this communal lifestyle in
(15:13):
these various forms before you ever meet Charles Manson. So
like the people coming over and living at your house
and you know you're used to a communal situation.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, no, exactly. My dad got involved with the Oracle.
They a group of them wanted to start the newspaper
that was successful in San Francisco in Los Angeles, and
he was an artist and he got he started doing
those day glow posters, Oh fun, the day glow the
(15:42):
neon psychods, and so he was doing that for them,
and he was, you know, in their art department. And
then they lost their lease or whatever at their house,
and so a bunch of them moved in with us,
and then the paper kind of dwindled. And it was
through the oracle that my dad and a couple of
(16:03):
the other guys decided, Hey, let's you know, go on
the road. Let's drop out, right, And so they bought
these bread trucks and started converting them into like a camper.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
And just to see how exciting that sounds to you
as a young person in today's world, everything was beautiful
until it was car was what happened to you when
you went with that guy to San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Well, a lot of water had gone under the bridge
at that point. But my parents were basically arguing about
what we were just talking about the role of a woman,
the role of a man. It was changing, right, And
they weren't arguing in a mean way, but they were
just philosophically discussing it, you know, and it did kind
of overlap into you know, what are the responsibility? My
(16:55):
dad was always trying to get my mom to come
and sit on the couch with him and read and
listen to Alan Ginsburg and you know, all these enlightened
you know, Autus Huxley, all these enlightened people. But she
had she was a domestic at heart, you know, she
liked keeping a nice house and you know, cooking, providing
(17:15):
for her family. She had three children, right, I was
the oldest. Anyway, At one point we had separated and
they had given me a note, you know, basically giving
me emancipation as a miner to live with this couple.
And then they went to the Grand Canyon and then
they came back and they were going to go to
Big Sir, and they said, hey, you know, they came
by and said you want to go with us, and
(17:37):
it was like yeah, So I went to Big Sir
with them. And it was there at Essalon that I
met this man, I don't know, like thirteen years older
than me, and when you're only fourteen, that's considerable, you know. Yeah,
And he was going to go to San Francisco and
you know, he asked me to go with him, and
I said, sure, yeah, I wanted to go to San Francisco.
(17:59):
By that point, I had enough people that you know,
felt that San Francisco Haye Ashbury area was the scene,
you know, that was the place to go. And so
I went with him, and he ended up being a
drug dealer and left me in his house for you know,
basically two weeks on my own, and I ended up
getting really sick, and when he came back, he took
(18:21):
me back to Big sur and they nursed me back
to health. And then I basically escaped because they lived
behind locked gates and they didn't think I was ready
to leave, and so but I was ready to leave,
and so I hopped the fence and stuck out my
thumb and miraculously got a ride for like three miles
(18:42):
by probably some lecherous old man, and I wasn't cooperating,
so he dropped me off, and then I stuck my
thumb out again and I got this incredible you know,
I got these three angel women in a white Cadillac
picked me up, and they wanted to go to Hollywood
and they wanted to meet Dean Martin and one of
(19:08):
the gallons. They were from New Zealand and anyway, so
I knew the way to Hollywood. I knew enough, you know,
basically Pacific Coast Highway. I knew some people there. I
got them to the Sunset Strip and they dropped me
off there, and then I went to visit a you know,
a person or I knew somebody that knew somebody I
was looking for, you know, a friend of mine and
(19:30):
my parents, you know, like where are they? Because they
they weren't, you know, I didn't know where they went.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
I left, I left.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Them, and they weren't when I went back three weeks later,
and so then it turned out they were at the
hog Farm, so that I ended up at the hog Farm.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
You know, another iconic commune back then. It was Hugh
Romney and Bonnie Jean, his wife, were kind of the leaders,
and you know they later he round me later became
Wavy Gravy.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Wavy Gravy, you.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Know, of Woodstock fame, and they weren't too happy with
me showing up. My parents were happy to see me,
but you know, the community below wasn't too happy with
this commune living on this hill, and so they had
posted guards you know, to not let anybody go up there.
And so here I am, you know, this underage, sexually
(20:25):
active girl. So they had this little talk with me
that they weren't comfortable with my being there because I
was jailbait, you know for some of the young musicians
and the young men coming up to the farm, which
they called it.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Right, it's the girl's fault when an age and appropriate
man wants to have sex with her, he must kick
the girl out, not the men.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Sorry, go on right, right, So, and we appreciate your
perspective on that, because it was very true the women,
it was it was always going to be her fault
because she was an underage you know what. It was
supposedly the sexual revolution, m but that was so one sided, right,
(21:07):
that's my opinion.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I mean, one of Charlie's things was always, you know,
you get rid of your inhibitions. So in other words,
spread your legs far and wide and do my bidding right,
and if you don't, it's your hang up. It's your
hang up.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
That's so.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I just can't imagine how crazy that must have made
you feel. Because free love everyone's doing. If like, if
I'm not participating in this movement, or I don't feel
comfortable with the sexual revolution, Like what's wrong with me
that I have personal boundaries? You know, I just can't
imagine how difficult it must have been at that time.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
Oh there were no boundaries.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
That wasn't even on our rainar.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Then this is your generations right right, benefit of boundaries,
right right, part of the whole.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Knee too thing. I mean, like, you know, People Magazine
did this three page spread on me, and when the
book came out, it came out in the same issue
where Harvey Weinstein and all his accusers were on the
front page, right, And I was like this little one
(22:17):
by two inch blurb on the front page. But it
really was hand in glove with the whole me Too
movement because I was coming out of my shame of
being associated with what with being taken advantage of right?
You know, It's like I was the one that had
(22:37):
the shame. I was the one that didn't want to
be associated and I mean I still really don't, but
it was like that's what these women were coming up against,
you know, is that hey, wait a minute, I was
taken advantage of right. They you know, the casting couch thing, yes,
is very you know, we all knew that was true,
(22:59):
that we just did. I didn't realize the consequences and
what it was really doing that it was the man.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
That was in charge of all of that, right, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
And Charlie. Charlie wanted to be a pimp. You know,
he learned how to be a pimp when he was
in jail so that he could come out and he
could control women.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I learned that from your book. That's such an interesting
fact that he, like, he's just straight up used those
tactics very intentionally.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And we all were broken in some fashion or other.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Well vulnerable, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Had been abused or you know, had had been kicked
out of our family. I mean I was sort of
really kicked out of my family. I think that Bonnie,
Jean and Hugh had a couple of friends come up
and kind of very nicely asked me would I like
to come and live with them? You know, and then
they're the ones that introduced me to Charlie.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I mean, we don't have to dwell on this part
of all, but you did experience so much abuse and
so many inappropriate relationships already by the time that you fourteen,
and reading about that couple made me really angry. I
don't I can't imagine how you must have felt in
your life. But we'll get into that in a minute.
But yeah, what a vulnerable position to be in. And
fourteen is so young. It is so young.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
I'll tell you something, Lola. When I started working with Diane,
I didn't know what to expect. I was just thrilled
and we connected and we started taking this journey together
where I would be interviewing her and getting the story.
And what was so shocking is that during the first
interview Diane was very kind of flat affect and would
(24:35):
just tell you as if she was one place and
her body was somewhere else. And then she told the
story that people would have to read the book, but
there's a very vivid scene of her childhood and she said,
she told me that particular story and then just glossed
over it. And I said, wait, wait, wait, back up,
(24:56):
do you realize what happened to you? And there was
lack of awareness And it wasn't really until we took
the whole journey together where Diane was able to reflect
back and say, you know, I was a victim, right,
So there wasn't awareness of inappropriate relationships and even how
(25:20):
Manson treated her. There was a lot of brainwashing.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh my gosh, yes, so you're at the hog Farm,
Wavy Gravy essentially kicks you out. Tell us what happens next.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Then this other couple, and I think that they were
friends of Hugh and Bonnie Jean, showed up and invited
me to come and stay with them. And they didn't
live at the hog Farm, and so it's like, yeah,
because I didn't feel welcome. They didn't kick me out.
They said I could stay there, but they wanted me
to sleep in the attic, right, and I just I
just didn't feel welcome. And my parents, you know, had
(25:54):
already given me emancipation, and I'd been separated from them
for you know, a month or so, and they didn't
unfold me. Like I said, they were struggling with their
new roles as men and women, and the kind of
consensus there was it takes a village, which I think
Hillary Clinton really coined that phrase. But that was the idea,
(26:17):
is that the adults in the commune kind of collectively
looked over and after all the children.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Or not or not right or not. But I mean
that was the idea.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Until you become of jailbait age and then and then
you're up or then you're in the attic.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Right, and so anyway, so I went with this other couple,
but I didn't enjoy being with them. They shot speed
and I wasn't interested in doing anything besides smoking some
marijuana and taking melosty. And so they invited me to
come along with them to this to hey, meet this
groovy guy and his girls, is basically was the invitation.
(26:58):
And so I went with them and and I walked
in and it was this house that I'd already lived
in with other people, so I knew the house that
I'd never heard of. Charlie and the girls and Isa right, yeah,
at the at the base of the canyon, just in
this little you know, it's now like a park. It's
(27:19):
like a preserve or a reserve type park. Anyway, I
walked in, and I think it was Lynette that came
up and went, Diane, you know, Charlie, Diane's here.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
It's like, what you're like, who.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Are you right?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
How do you know me?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
It was magical and flabbergasting all at the same time.
And Charlie got up from the circle and came and
offered me a drink of his root beer and embraced
me and you know, welcome, hey, come and join us
in the circle, which was, you know, what we did
most of the time, especially in the evening. We'd gather
in a circle and Charlie would plays guitar and play
(27:59):
sing his songs and we would sing along.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
So and Lynette is squeaky correct, Yeah, yeah, Okay, this
redhead girl comes up and is like so excited to
meet you, and you don't know who she is, but
you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers. What
was your first impression of Tarlie? Like, what did he
seem like? What was the vibe?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Fun? Totally, you know, playful. He wasn't an imposing figure
at all. He's a short little guy, you know, or
was a short little man, and you know, with curly hair.
And really, I think I think we've analyze this. I
think he was like thirty three. Well, my youngest son
is thirty one, and I certainly don't think of him
(28:40):
as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest
son is thirty seven. But even when he was thirty three,
I mean, it was like, oh you know, handsome, and
also you need.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
To understand there was an archetype of the long haired
guitar playing guru type person at that time, and he
would have fit into every group I knew, even though
I was just younger enough that I missed some of
that early mid sixties. But everybody, you know, if you
(29:16):
were at a party at your friend's house and somebody
took out a guitar and they had long hair, you
were all enamored. And I mean the guy with the guitar.
That's why they played the guitar right, they could get
the girls.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
At that time.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
He did not look or behave in ways that were
so outrageous. He was also so love bombing with each
of the women that even if he told them, hey,
I just got out of jail, it was like he
gas lit them in a way that made them feel
(29:53):
sorry for him. And all the women wanted to take
care of him and nurture him. And it wasn't like
today we might say, oh, you just got out of
a stint in jail and say, well, maybe I shouldn't
hang out with you. It wasn't like that at all.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
And it was like for forgery. Forgery, and see.
Speaker 5 (30:13):
How they can say now even today. Oh, it wasn't
that big a deal, right, he just was forging you
know why he wasn't He was a perfectly nice psychopath.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I mean right, No, when I could see how if
you're already rebelling against the system and that's like part
of your whole idea, your worldview, then that would be okay.
Speaker 5 (30:33):
Yeah, he was perfect for it. And I'm sure he
was very sexy, and he had trained himself to appeal
to women. And from my research, because Diane, when we
wrote the book, it was Diane's memories, we did nothing
to pollute that. Diane hadn't seen movies. She maybe read
Helter Skelter back when it came out in the day,
(30:55):
but she hadn't seen all the videos and interviews. So
I was doing the research on the side. I read
one account at one point one of his girlfriends basically said,
you're a terrible lover, and she taught him how to
please the women, and then he went back into jail
(31:18):
and learned at the feet of the pimps right how
to control women. So he was training himself, right.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And one of the things I saw on the book
was that one of the things the pimps taught him
was to make the women feel really special and make
them feel really loved, which obviously came very much into
play later on Diane.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
I'm sure you can attest to that he had that. Damn.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, he was a very special lover. I mean he
often would start with this, just this give and take
of your hands, you know, standing in front of each other.
You know, it was a dance. It was sweet. It
was to me, it was it was.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
I remember memory of him in the early early day.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Right, you're putting your hands together, like touching hands and
moving them around. Is that kind of like?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah? And it was just like this give and take,
you know, it.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Was it was like he was leading, right, he.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Was leading, but not forcefully. I mean it was it
was a dance. It was far play, but it was
very sweet, you know, and it was very gentle intimate.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
It seems very intimate.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
Yeah, he really got under under their skin.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah. It wasn't a wam bam, thank you ma'am.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
You know, right, made feel like they were the only
one in his life.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
M So you spend this wonderful night with him, how
do you end up actually coming to stay with them?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
I kind of went back and forth for a few weeks.
They were planning this bus trip to New Mexico and Arizona,
and it was like right after Thanksgiving, and I didn't
want to be left behind. So the gentleman that had
introduced me to Charlie, Richard getting you know, after this
(33:09):
back and forth for a couple of weeks, he said,
you know, I don't I get a bad vibe. You know,
I don't think you should go with them, But I
didn't want to be left behind. It I didn't, you know,
where am I going to go? I didn't want to
go live with Richard and Leegre, and I didn't want
to go back to the I didn't feel welcome at
the hog Farm, and my parents weren't really paving the
(33:29):
way for me, you know, because they'd emancipated me, and
I was on my own, and I was the oldest
of the family. And I had always been very capable
and very an a student, and I'd always been very
independent and capable. Right, it's a new world. So anyway,
that that's what happened. So I went with them.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Can you tell us real quick why they recognized you?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Well, it turned out that Charlie had gone up to
the hog farm while I was in San Francisco. And
of course, you know, you've got two leaders, you know,
you've got you round me and you've got Charlie, two egos.
You know, it was like there, there wasn't like a
mutual and they didn't you admired And they called him
(34:16):
black Bus Charlie.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
But my mom because he had a bus that was black.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah, my mom loved the girls and they all went
on a bus trip. They went on a bus trip
out to the desert looking for gas tanks. Charlie was
obsessed with gasoline. He was always, yeah, he always was
looking for gas tanks that he was going to weld
to the bottom of the bus so that he could
have this you know, unlimited or you know, as much
(34:42):
of an unlimited supply of gas as possible. And then
as he like descended into madness, he often talked about
digging this huge pit and hijacking a gas tanker and
burying it in the desert so that we would have Yeah, no,
I mean that was one of his crazy illusions or delusions.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
He even mentioned it as an aside comment in the
transcripts of the trial, where and people didn't really catch
it what he was talking about. But because I was
so familiar with Diane's story, and then I also did
the book Inside the Mansengery, and it examined all of
(35:22):
the transcripts and makes.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Us oh, it showed up again.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
It does where he says, well, I just want to
go back to the desert and look for gasoline and whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Oh what an interesting detail. Yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
And it's not something people would notice if you didn't
understand his obsession. And it was all about going off
the grid.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Really, ultimately, it always is, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, because my parents had had this encounter with him,
and I was in San Francisco and they talked about
that we're going to go to San Francisco. Charlie and
the girls, We're going to go to San Francisco. My
mom gave them my picture. They gave them a photo
of me, and you're like, Hey, when you're in San Francisco,
(36:06):
look for this girl. You know, it's my daughter, you know.
And whether you know it's I don't know if she
said bring her back, you know, or just you know,
see how she's doing. I'm sure she was worried about me.
I mean, you know, I know she was worried about me.
So it was like either bring her back or you know,
bring me a report or something, right, and so but
(36:27):
I didn't know that. I didn't have that conversation with
my mom before I met Charlie and the girls. And
so when I walked in, see, they already knew.
Speaker 5 (36:34):
Me blind magic like magic Charlie, which, of course he
used all of his seeming miracles to continue to create
the illusion that kept his people loyal.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah. Oh, I was so fascinated by the postulating, the
term postulating and what that meant for you guys, I mean,
can you explain that?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Is well, his idea of postulating was just like I mean,
I think that there was another, you know, leader of
something that talked about positive thinking. So think about something
positively and it will come to you. Well that's what
postulating was. So it was like if we needed money,
if we needed clothes, if we needed food, if we
(37:21):
needed gas, you know, we would think positive kind of
like a meditation. And I mean it's it's like a prayer,
but it wasn't called a prayer, right, you know, it
was it was just sending out into the universe your
needs and it was kind of suspect in some ways.
(37:42):
But I mean later when I thought about it as
a mature adult, But back then we just thought it
was like, Wow, he's really powerful.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Because your needs were getting met because you would he
would always get right.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
And I'm sure that he manipulated some of that.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
That was also how people were thinking. And LSD would
expand your idea, your consciousness and this sense of connectedness
to all everything, the rocks, the universe, right, and it
was like they were creating this, you know, this manifestation
(38:23):
of anything that they needed. And that's also the idea
of going off, going away from the establishment and living
off the land and everybody loves each other, and you know,
it was that was the mindset.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
How often was he on LSD.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
We took honesty pretty frequently, I think that. But he
had a couple of bad trips. I remember there was
one really chaotic trip. We had decorated the back ranch
house with tapestries, you know on the walls and the ceilings,
you know, the Indian tapestries and you know, mattresses. It
(39:00):
was you know, we were gonna have had a special
guest musician who played the c tar. That's all I
remember is we took the LSD. We're all ready. I
think it was Paul Watkins that was on the cetar
and he plucked one string and it just was like
(39:21):
and I was gone. I mean, I like followed that
note into infinity.
Speaker 5 (39:26):
Wow, I'm not encouraging the use of drugs a little
too fun.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
I can't remember anything until I woke up in the
morning and the place was a shambles.
Speaker 5 (39:39):
Well, and there's another thing that Diane remembered and also
was confirmed through other research, is that it's possible that
some of the reason that Manson ultimately did descend into
madness was he did have a really bad trip. It
was a messionic trip where he claims to have relived
(40:04):
the Crucifixion. And also, which is not uncommon, Alan Ginsberg,
when he took his LSD trip, suddenly became messionic. So
the whole generation of people were following someone who basically
had a psychotic break, right, And so you think of
it that way, and the followers or the family they
(40:27):
were taking LSD. He was administering it regularly, but he
didn't always take.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
It m.
Speaker 5 (40:35):
Or he didn't take as much right, so he could.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Be in control.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yes, especially after that trip and then there had been
I mean the trip, I think the trip where he
experienced the crucifixion that he he was the messiah on
across took place in San Francisco. But then he I
remember a trip when we were at the Spiral Stirk
House where he re enacted.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
That right is subconscious, you know.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
And on LSD, you know, you see these light streams
from your hands and it just an ore and so
it's you know, it's very you see lots of light
reflected and so with anyway, so he had us convinced,
(41:27):
you know that we were seeing like a stigmata. I'm
sure that he used that.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Can you paint a picture of just what life was
like at first once you're living with them, Like what
are you doing every day?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Well, you know, everybody needs to eat and go to
the bathroom and shower, and so a lot of you know,
your life is revolves around you know, procuring and taking
care of those needs. So cooking, you know, we did
cooking and cleaning, and we made love and in the
evening we'd get in the circle and sing songs and
(41:59):
he'd give us a his little talk tos, which you know,
we're often about getting rid of your inhibitions and just
the whole new alternative culture kind of mindset. So it
wasn't it wasn't a total break from what I'd kind
of heard before, but it had just taken on, you know,
(42:20):
a new life. And as we moved along, he became
more protective. You know, he discouraged outside relationships unless I mean,
if he were going to bring somebody into the family.
But he was very selective.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Was he very selective about the women as well, or
just mostly selective about the men?
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I think mostly the guys, Yeah, yeah, but I think
the girls, you know, the girls too. I mean, he
wanted he wanted them all to be beautiful, you know,
because as things moved forward, you know, and we got
closer to going to the desert, and once we, you know,
were introduced to the desert place, he'd always had been
(42:59):
talking about this black white race war. And it wasn't
until the White album came out, but it got nicknamed,
you know, Helter Skelter. But the whole idea he wanted beautiful.
He wanted us to make beautiful children and repopulate the world,
you know, after the apocalypse because that's basically what it
(43:19):
was going to be, you know, and then the black
Man wasn't going to be able to handle it, and
then he was they were going to ask for Charlie's help.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
You know, right, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
I mean, it's just like when I talk about it,
I just I think, you know, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
He sprinkled a little bit of everything in there.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Yeah he did. And I think he I'm a special
teacher or I'm a retired special education teacher specialized in autism,
and you can get stuck, you know, you can get
stuck in these mindsets. And I think that's kind of
what happened to him, you know, whether he was on
(43:59):
the spectrum or not.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
It's interesting that was like gasoline sounds like his special
interest or something. You know.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, he did have these fixations.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Have these elevators, tractors, dinosaurs, whatever, you know. I mean,
they get fixated on.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Something and then that brain on LSD all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Right, So but he I think he had an auditory.
Uh he was kind of a savant auditorily, which to
me that meant that to me, what that meant was
kids with autism, I mean they can recite whole movies,
so stuff that he would hear, and he wasn't a
good reader. Lynette would have to read stuff for him.
(44:39):
But I think auditorily, I mean, he was as a
young person exposed to all kinds of sermons and then scientology,
and I mean and in jail music and so I
think that so he had all this auditory input that
I think he you just regurgitations kind it out right.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yes, and he would mix it up, you know, mirror
whatever the person he was talking to need it probably
little snippets.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
I think the little snippets of what he'd heard formed
his life reality on reality. He was gifted in that,
you know. And even with music, you know, he didn't
read music, you know, it was all auditory. So I
think he had this kind of almost a savant ability
(45:31):
to remember things auditorily.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
That makes total sense. What was your relationship with him?
Like he'd be very kind obviously, but then he would
suddenly hit you right and like when you weren't expecting
it or like can you just describe that dynamic a
little bit?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah. I think that as time went on and he
you know, he started having more control and and like
a bigger delusion or you know, idea of where we
were going or where he wanted us to go as
a family, and I just I don't think I was
totally on board, which I thank god, I thank god
(46:12):
that I wasn't right. And recently I kind of got
reacquainted with Catherine Chaer Gypsy, and she's ten years older
than me. She was kind of tasked with watching out
for me, or watching over me for Charlie.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Keeping an eye on you, keeping an eye on me.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
Yeah, it was also watching out for you because of Charlie,
because she saw that he was mistreating you.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
But she said that I would, you know, I would,
I would listen that I would lose my focus and
I would just get up and wander off and like whatever.
So and I think that really it bothered him, and
I wasn't setting a good example, so he would make
an example.
Speaker 5 (47:02):
And just think about it. You've got a cult leader, right.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
You weren't submissive enough.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
She would roll her eyes and kind of say, Charlie,
that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
It was very cool to re connect with somebody that
knew me back then who was older. I mean ten
years older. That's significant, you know. And she had a
much wiser, more worldly view of everything.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Wow, that's so great that you guys got to connect, right, right.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I mean, this has been this has been such an
incredible journey since since I wrote the book, and you know,
the different interviews, and it's not just regurgitating what I
wrote in the book. I mean, it's like there's been
this whole because now I've read and seen more interviews
and been in, you know, quite a few documentaries and
(47:53):
seeing other people's tape, and so the whole thing has
really kind of, you know, evolved into a more mature,
deeper understanding of what happened to me and what happened
to him. And you know, it's still kind of hard
for me to understand how the murders happened.
Speaker 5 (48:15):
Yeah, but you know what's interesting, working with Diane and
doing so much research and then looking at the bigger
picture of cult behavior, it helped me understand how these
things can happen. And I went into working with Diane
with the question of how could this happen? Because these
(48:37):
were troubled young women. But they weren't what you would
think as maybe a throwaway or a young criminal, or
you know, they were not They were from mostly from affluent, homes, intelligent,
and people need to understand that when you have an
unequal power relationship, this kind of brainwashing or ultimate abuse
(49:04):
or control can happen in very It comes in many
many forms.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Exactly, anyone can be vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment in
their life where they find a person or a group
that seems to be the answer to their problems and
that it really seems like what you needed at that
time in your life. Diane was a family and voila, Diane, Diane,
We've been waiting for you, like booms, there's a family,
(49:32):
you know, especially that age, I mean, gosh, yeah, fourteen
is so young.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something,
and that's how gangs and isis. And you know all
of these these terrorists, even terrorist groups, you know, they absolutely, yeah,
get get sucked in because they want to be part
of something bigger than themselves and to feel We all
do in some I think in some.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Ways absolutely, I know I do, and yeah, debort to
feel special. Absolutely, I want to feel special. I want
to belong Topically.
Speaker 5 (50:09):
Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are
a cult leader, but what happens is with the progression
of that adulation from any group of people, it will
ultimately lead to having power over others and the mindset ultimately,
you know, just like in a domestic violence situation, the
(50:32):
people become isolated from the outside world. They're the only
information they're receiving is from the leader and the group,
so they're all kind of harvesting the same information and
it becomes a reality. And that's why someone from the
outside can look at the mindset and some of the
things that Diane and the others were believing at the time,
(50:55):
and they were believing it, and to the outside, it's
how how could you believe that? But when you're on
the inside, it is reality.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
I mean I know that firsthand.
Speaker 5 (51:07):
I know you too.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
You know, I'm curious about your relationship with the other girls.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
How was that In the beginning?
Speaker 3 (51:14):
I would say I was the closest really to Lynette
Squeaky Squeaky, Yeah, yeah, Lynette and Charlie and I and
then Patty. I wasn't ever really that close to Susan Atkins.
But Patty was like the mother Earth. I mean, she
was like the salt of the earth. I mean, she
(51:34):
was just so down to earth. So incredibly down to earth.
So I felt close to her. When Leslie came on
the scene, I didn't feel I just didn't have anything
in common with her other than Charlie or text, you know,
because I never went to high school and so and
she was like homecoming queen or a princess or something,
(51:57):
you know, just totally I had no clue. I had
no clue what that was all about. And so to me,
she just seemed like, you know, very shallow and aloof
and just a silly girl. I don't know. I mean,
you know, she wasn't down to earth. You know, she
was very flighty, and Sandy was a prima donna to me.
(52:21):
You know, she was a spoiled rich girl and you know,
who felt like she'd been abused by her family. She
was kind of manipulative, and she wasn't my best friend.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
I mean, I think it's just cool to hear this perspective,
because when you hear manson girls, you picture this like
monolith of the girls with the crosses, and they are
zombies and they're all have the exact same personality. But no,
like everyone was so different from each other.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
But I had been you know, I hadn't really been
part of that aspect at all.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Oh, you need to understand that what you saw at
the trial was very much orchestrated from behind the scenes
between Manson Squeaky. There was a lot of manipulation of
the legal system because they had a goal, and that
was to get him out.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Right, of course, So there's a whole.
Speaker 5 (53:16):
Backstory and a continuation. By that time, Diane was at
Patent State and was being held there for her own
safety and for treatment until she would.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Testify, right, And I want to get into that.
Speaker 5 (53:29):
I don't mean to jump ahead, but the picture that
people have of these zombie like girls, they were true
believers at that point in Manson and that he was
Man's son and that he was their only saving grace,
that this race war was going to happen, and the
only person who could save them would be him, and
(53:52):
they fully believed it, and they were all boiled to him, right.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
And I think some of the proof of that, to
me is just how far gone they were in that belief.
Was the fact that when we got arrested for burning
a road grader in Death Valley, it didn't have anything
to do with the murders. But Susan Atkins had a
(54:16):
warnt out and she got transferred to you know, La
County Jail, and it was there that she started telling
her roommates about Charlie, right, And I mean did she
I think she really thought that the doors of the
jail were just going to fall off and they were
going to be free to go to the desert with Charlie.
(54:40):
And she was still like proud of that and trying
to I think, trying to convince these ab cellmates about
the reality. And then she started, you know, she believed
it so much that she started to tell them what
her part in these teneous murders. It's like, why would
(55:01):
you do that unless you were.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Totally totally brainwashed.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Without a doubt brainwashed.
Speaker 5 (55:08):
And think about it too. At that time, there were
a lot of counter revolutionary groups, and at the time
before they people understood what had really happened and why,
there were some of the counter revolutionary groups supporting what
had happened, thinking that it was a strike against the establishment. Oh,
(55:30):
and they actually felt that the murders were like a
revolutionary Yeah, there were horrible collateral damage, but this was
something good for the cause.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 5 (55:42):
Wowun is up and up is down, and you have
to consider the times.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
I guess I knew that there were lots of domestic
bombings for political purposes, so I guess I could see
how that would make sense. But yeah, I had no
idea anyone interpreted it that way.
Speaker 5 (55:59):
I can't think of the particular group. But there were,
you know, radical groups that came out in favor of
what he did. Now, of course, later they didn't necessarily
support him, but at first they thought that this you know,
they were attacking the establishment and making a statement, and
you know, until they realized that it was very crazy.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
So back to the girls for a second. Did you
experience any jealousy because you had to share? I'm calling
him Charlie just because that's what the book called him.
Speaker 3 (56:36):
You know, when I think of him, I I don't
call him Charles Manson, right, you know, he's Charlie. I remember, though,
thinking at some point that I was in love with
him and that I wanted him to just take me,
yeah off and marry me. You know, that was in
the very early state, you know, very early stages. But
(56:59):
they're really wasn't. I mean, we were like you know,
sister wives for the most part, I mean, and that's
what he encouraged, you know. So that was part of
the brainwashing, is that we were to squelch those feelings
of jealousy. That wasn't that wasn't okay. You know, you
need to share and you know, share a like, and
(57:22):
he did when you did spend time with just him,
he did make you feel like you were you know,
you were the special one. So and that was part
of his training, and he pulled it off for the
most part.
Speaker 2 (57:36):
How did you get the nickname Snake?
Speaker 3 (57:39):
I actually was responsible probably for giving myself that thing.
Not that I wanted that nickname, but I had been
fasting and because Charlie. That was one of Charlie's things too,
is that we didn't really need food, so you know,
and we certainly didn't want to get fat. And so
I had been on like a lemon and honey fast
forbably twenty days. Holy moly.
Speaker 5 (58:02):
I didn't realize it was that long.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
Yeah, And anyway, and it was a hot summer day
at the top of you know, Topanga Canyon and.
Speaker 5 (58:09):
Talk about hallucinating.
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Ill and I wasn't really even hallucinating. I just you know,
I'm a kid and I just imagined what it would
be like slithering through the tall cool grass as a snake,
and so I just recat I mean, it's just, you know,
it wasn't even like something I physically saw. It was
(58:33):
just something that I got in the skin of the
snake and what that would be like. And I was
wanting that, you know, imagery to the girls in the
kitchen into one of the places that we lived in
Topanga Canyon and there from then on, I was Snake.
Charlie gave everybody nicknames, so I just didn't have one yet, right.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yeah, take away your original identity.
Speaker 3 (59:02):
But you know what's interesting, But I just found this
out a couple of years ago, is that in the
Chinese zodiac, I was born in the year of the Snake.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Come on, that's crazy. Three, very good.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
It's humbling to have that nickname snake.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah. So you were all dumpster diving, some people were
stealing cars. You're I mean, I guess you sort of
described every day. It's just everyday life is like getting
the things done that you need to get done. How
did you feel when the race work talk stuff began.
Did you feel uncomfortable with that at all?
Speaker 3 (59:43):
Like, what was that like, yeah, it was you know,
it was a little disconcerting. I grew up in Minnesota
and my father and mom had you know, African American
friends that would come over for dinner and they were
just you know, I didn't have but in Los Angeles,
(01:00:03):
you know, and then the Black Panthers and then you know,
and Charlie would talk about it, and he'd been hearing
about it, you know, since he was a little guy
in reform school and then prison, so this was like, oh,
insider information kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (01:00:20):
In the context of the times. It sort of overlapped
the peaceful demonstrations with Martin Luther King and he was
assassinated in nineteen sixty eight, so you know, it was
all during that time that at the same time, there
was this undercurrent of activists who were the Black Panthers,
(01:00:42):
who were saying, no, let's not do this peacefully, let's
do you know, let's do this, let's have a revolution,
and so it all was overlapping. So I think the
rhetoric was supporting his upside down, thinking that this was
going to happen and us. Another thing that you have
(01:01:03):
to consider is that he would take pieces of information
from many different sources and right down the street literally
from I mean we drove there when we did our tour,
right down from Spawn Ranch was right.
Speaker 6 (01:01:20):
What is it like a Fountain of the World world
And they're another cult, yes, and their leader he espoused
a race war and all of his followers believed in
that race war.
Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
And so again you've got a mishmash christ Naventa, thank you.
That was gonna bother me all night, Christianava.
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
This is another cult leader that like everybody kind of knows.
Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
Or it's well, he didn't. He was murdered or bombed,
but the actual cult housing in the buildings are still there.
Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
I bet a remnant of them still are part of
that cult.
Speaker 5 (01:02:03):
And they went there. Diane went there with Yeah, we went.
Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
We tried to recruit them, or we wanted them to
recruit us. I don't know, we want we tried to
combine forces with them. Oh.
Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Interesting, that could have made it way worse.
Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Yes, they didn't like Charlie.
Speaker 6 (01:02:19):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Oh, they were like opposing cult leaders exactly.
Speaker 5 (01:02:25):
Well, and their cult leader was dead but they were
still loyal to him.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Oh, so they were dead, and Charlie was like, let
me go get these people who need a new leader.
Speaker 5 (01:02:32):
Ahh, making over an ant hill or something.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Fas fascinating, And we will leave it there for now.
Stay tuned for next week. There is so much more
to get into, Megan. Yes, say you're fourteen, Los Angeles sixties,
pretty unstable childhood, lots of moving around, lots of communes,
lots of predatory men coming after you. What do you
(01:02:58):
think would you?
Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Absolutely would you meet up with Charlie?
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Absolutely? Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, yeah, go on, I mean how I mean, just in.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Pure survival mode. She needed someplace to go and I
would have too. And I think he from what I've
read and what he sounds like, he can be very
seductive in making you feel like there's a bigger purpose.
And that's very compelling for my personal brain. So I
totally understand your personal brain. My personal brain, my public brain.
(01:03:34):
Totally different story.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
I agree, absolutely, Even just the moment that she described
when she shows up to this house and they all
just know who she is and they know her name
and they welcome her with open arms after being kicked
out of this other place. I mean, even at age
thirty three, my current age, that would be very alluring
to me. Yeah, But imagine at fourteen. Oh my god.
(01:04:00):
The age that we've talked about this in the past,
fourteen is the age that, or maybe thirteen, but that
I prayed to Satan for friends because God hadn't delivered me, really,
you know, and.
Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
You believed in God, so that was a like real, right.
Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
I was desperate, so imagine and I had great parents
who were you know, like loving parents, and I can't
even imagine, like I can't imagine not joining the group
at that time. Same, yeah, and of course, like it's
all about this slow descent, right, his slow descent into madness,
and by that point, that's your life, that's your community.
(01:04:34):
So I urged people to consider, you know, obviously, some
horrific murders happened. It's easy to think we could never
do that because it's so horrible, but I urge folks
to consider if they were in that same situation, you know,
and on all kinds of LSD, you might be susceptible.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Do you think that if he hadn't gone so far
down with drugs there would have been a totally different outcome.
Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
I don't know, because it seems like there was genuine
mental illness an instability there already, like he'd had a
track record of committing crimes his whole life, even in
and out of jail, his whole life, So it doesn't
seem like he was on the straight and arrow other
than drugs, you know what I mean? Right, It seems
like classic sociopath stuff like the unpredictable violent behavior. Clearly
had a conscience, hadn't been much of a factor for him.
(01:05:18):
So yea, So maybe it wouldn't have gotten to that
particular point. But you know, one always wonders if the
music career had gone well, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Isn't Andrew Keegan? Doesn't he have a cult in Venice?
Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
I don't know if it's a cold or if it's
a religion. I think he's like a pastor. Oh, people
call it a could. I don't know if it's a
cold or if it's just like an independent religion. But
we should have him on and find out.
Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
I've randomly spent a lovely afternoon with Andrew Keegan because
I ran into him on the beach, didn't know who
he was, and he had a parrot and a pug
and a Pomeranian.
Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
I'm sorry, does he only have pets that start with pee?
A parent pug and a Pomeranian.
Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Walk into a part.
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
But yeah, you know it's it's some crazy ship.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
So yeah, yeah, wow parrot, just have a parrot. All right,
y'all come back next week and hear the rest of
the story.
Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Yes, please do. I can't wait for y'all to hear
the end of the story. And for now, remember to
follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never
ever trus me me
You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes
of trust Me. Diane Lake joined us in twenty twenty
one to discuss her experience with the Manson family. Then
scroll back in your podcast app to listen to part
two of this conversation with Diane from May nineteenth, twenty
twenty one. If you're new here followed the show so
you don't miss the July thirtieth th return of trust
Me on the Exactly Right Network.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Trust Me, trust.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I've never lived to you, and we never.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Have a live. If you think that one person has
all the answers, don't Welcome to trust Me, the podcast
about cults, extreme belief, and the abusive power from two
non Manson girls who've actually experienced it. I am Lola
Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. Today our guest are
Diane Lake and Deborah Herman. Diane Lake, aka Snake, was
the youngest member of the Manson family, and Deborah is
(00:51):
the co author of her book called Member of the Family,
My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside is Cold and
the Darkness that ended the Sixties. It is a great book.
Recommend it. I read it. It's episodes a two parter, folks,
because there's so much to the story. I cannot believe
that Diane was willing to come on and talk to us.
I am very grateful because this is fucking awesome. So
for everyone who hasn't read Helter Skelter and watch every
(01:13):
Charles Manson doc like I have, Diane did not have
anything to do with the Tate Lobyon com murders. In fact,
she was actually a key witness in the trial that
put Charlie in prison and the girls. She's going to
tell us about the tumult and trauma of her life
leading up to meeting Charles Manson, whom she knew as Charlie,
living in Los Angeles in the nineteen sixties with counterculture
parents and bouncing around communes with grown men going after her,
(01:34):
and what it was like when she first met Charles
Manson and his girls when she was just fourteen.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
We talk about what it was like being with Charlie
dumpster diving, stealing cars, taking lsd and having sex. And
in part two next week, we'll get into Charlie's downward
spiral as he grew paranoid and began talking about a
race war, learning about the murders, testifying at the trial,
and finally facing her trauma.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I just love Diane and Deborah, both of them. They're
so great. I feel like they're us in you know,
however many years like I feel like we will be them.
We're them, They're us were them. But before we get
into that, our cultiest thing this week, we have a
story we're going to talk about that's in the news.
We sure do, and if y'all haven't heard about it,
it's kind of crazy. Megan, do you want to begin?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I'm sure there is a woman named Amy who has
started going by Mother God. It appears that started happening
around twenty eighteen. She started an ascension cult, got some followers.
But why Amy is in the news this week is
because she was discovered in a basement, mummified dead, with
(02:42):
makeup around her eye sockets and wrapped in Christmas light.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Let's be clear it was glitter around her eye sockets.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Apologies.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Her name was Amy Carlson and her group was called
Love Has Won. Yeah, she often went by the name
Mother God. And there were just like seven people in
the house, right, yep, and two two kids just chilling,
so let's be clear. Her body was not recently dead.
Her body was so badly decomposed. Her body was so
(03:12):
dead they could not even get her fingerprints.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, she was extremely dead.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's not funny, it's just so, it's just like what
was happening. So the group apparently said that she ascended. Oh,
here's some of the quotes. So on Sunday May first,
a man who appeared to be a member of the
group positive video during which he said mom has ascended
and quote completed her contract, and then he said is
the mission over?
Speaker 4 (03:35):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Carlson apparently abandoned her family to teach spiritual intuitive ascension
sessions fifteen years ago, so not twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Oh apologies, my god.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I mean, she was on Doctor phil last year talking
about her group. But it doesn't look like they murdered her.
It looks like, according to one article, she was like
so obsessed with colloidal silver, which a lot of like
homeopathic medicine people, champion, But if you take too much
coloil silver, it can be poisonous.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I think.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Also it can turn you blue. If you google coloidal
silver blue person, you will see that it can actually
literally permanently turn your skin blue. Which is fucking insane.
But it suspected that she was selling it as a quote,
a cure for COVID nineteen, not a cure of my friends,
and she was taking so much of it and she
had cancer, so it seems like she probably died from
these different things and then they just created this shrine
(04:24):
around her body, don't you.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Think, right? Right? Yeah, for sure?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And honestly, I gotta say, I was listening to some
death positive podcast last year and they were talking about
this ritual, this like death positive ritual, and I don't
remember what it's actually called, but where someone who's like
your guide through your grief comes over and you actually
let the body remain in your home for three days
and like say goodbye to your loved one properly, and
(04:51):
you know, cover them in beautiful things, and the practitioner
or whatever basically keeps dry ice around so the body
doesn't decompose. Actually thought that that sounded really nice. I
don't know. We're so afraid of death and we're so
like we want to avoid it, we don't want to
see it, And there's something I think that's really cool
about like facing it and making it be this loving
(05:13):
goodbye ritual instead of like, get it out of here.
We don't want to see that. We don't want to
know about death, you know what I mean. So that
version of it, I actually think is really cool. Letting
the body fully decompose in this bedroom, in this house
you're all staying, and maybe not as much.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
But I don't understand. Was she mummified or was she decomposed?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I guess One article said mummified. One said her body
was so badly decomposed that they couldn't get her fingerprints.
So I don't know what that means. What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well, one of I don't know. One of the interesting
things about her is that she in a past life
was Jesus.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
And Marilyn Monroe. Wow, it's amazing how many people were
Marilyn Monroe in a past life and Jesus, Like, so
many people were them in a past life? Who was
it really? You know exactly which one? Who's the real one.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
One of the most traumatizing moments of my life is
when my cat psychic told me my last life was
on a tugboat with my cat as my husband.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Wait, who did I'm sorry? Can you repeat that?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah? My cat psychic told me that my last life
I was on a tugboat and my cat was my husband.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So you have a cat psychic?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Like a psychic who tells you about your your cat
right right, and well just cat.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I only had one session with her. It was a
birthday gift, and she was you know, what's the word,
uh not real?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah no, but I figured but uh.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Hearing that your past life was just like, wow, cool,
We're like stealing food from restaurants and then going and
hiding out on our tugboat. And I was just like, no,
tell me, I was Marilyn Monroe. Tell me, I was, Jesus,
what is this? This is crazy?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You know what I would love to do. I would
love to go to a bunch of psychic people who
tell you what your past lives were, and give them
all different information about myself and see the different like
variations of past lives that come up. Clearly, y'all, I
do not believe in past lives. I know that some
of our listeners might, I personally do not, nor do
(07:25):
I believe that you can determine what your cat's right
past life was.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I mean, I wish I didn't believe in past lives,
but I think I do so bummer but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
This lady, classic classic Meganaloa, Am I right?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, I mean past lives indicates that I'm going to
have to come back here again, which is just like lol.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
But yeah, I don't know, man, what do you think
you'll be in your next life?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Probably like West Kardashians child or.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Something that sounds right for you. I guess I'll come
back as jurtin the ground baby. Okay, okay, anyway, So,
can't wait to talk to Diane and Deborah. Are you ready? Ready,
Let's do it? Okay, here we go. Welcome Diane and
(08:31):
Deborah Dane Lake and Deborah Herman. So, Deborah, you are
the co author of Diane's book Member of the Family,
My story of Charles Manson, Life Inside his Could and
the Darkness that ended the Sixties. Can you both say
your names for our audience so they can tell the
difference between your voices.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Hello, I'm Diane Lake and I'm Deborah Herman and we're
used to like talking at the same time.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Thank you guys so much for being here. This is
truly a treat. I'm so excited to talk to you.
There's so much again into I finished your book today
and Wow, what an amazing story and so many just
incredible details. The way you painted the picture both of you, Yeah,
just really gave me a sense of what it felt
like to be there, which is something that you don't
really get to see very often. I feel like, often,
(09:17):
you know, stories focus on the graphic details and stuff,
but I really enjoyed reading about your life specifically. So
start us at the beginning. So, Diane, you originally grew
up in Minnesota. Your dad was an artist who was
sort of obsessed with this like California lifestyle and the
counterculture movement that was happening. Your family moves to Los Angeles,
and that's when your life kind of begins to change.
(09:39):
Can you tell us about how your parents started doing
LSD and the first time that you took LSD my.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Mom actually got high on marijuana with the couple down
the street in Santa Monica. My dad was obviously ripe
to try it as well, so they tried it and remember,
you know, lots of laughing, and you know, they it
seemed like it was a good thing for them. I
smoked some marijuana with my dad one day, and then
(10:10):
he really got into Timothy Larry's whole rap about this epiphany,
you know, this new world. You know, it was this
alternative kind of reality that LSD was like a mind
opener to, you know, some truths that he had been
looking for. And so the first trip I took, I
(10:30):
took with my two best friends in my living room
and we read Timothy Larry's Tibetan.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Book of a Dead And I just want to interject
A lot of people focus on that point in the
book where you know, Diane, I think you must have
been what thirteen is now taking LSD and her father's
in the other room. He knows it's happening, and they
consider it in the context of today. Right, So if
(11:01):
you're looking at it from the context of that time frame,
which we tried to create, that whole the feeling, the time,
the place, it was very different because the purpose of
the psychedelic movement was to expand your mind, to change
the world and to make it a better place. And
so for her parents, I mean, at least presumably it
(11:25):
was like a sacrament. They were really thinking was going
to be good for her.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Right, It wasn't like handing her heroin and being like
go get addicted to this now child. Yeah, totally different.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Very different.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It was.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
In fact, Lola, you make a very good point. In
today's world, we would perceive that act as tantamount to
giving your child heroin. But that's not what the times
were like at that time. It was tune in, turn on,
drop out, and it wasn't people using drugs. Yeah, some
people were. The psychedelic movie real use exactly. It wasn't
(12:03):
about that, like a drink and a beer or you
know right, it was about my expansion.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What I found fascinating about it all is in the
beginning of the book just how completely different your life
was from anything like that. You know, you and your
mom are like on the sewing machine and cooking, and
suddenly it's this entirely different world. And I just can't
even imagine what that must have felt like.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I know, I have to give my mom a lot
of credit. I mean, she really trusted my dad and
she trusted God. I mean, she really felt like she
had seen an angel at the end of her bed,
you know, telling her everything was going to be okay.
When we were planning this dropping out because you know,
we've had a big yard sale and sold everything and
(12:47):
my dad had been converting a bread truck, which is
like a step van, you know, like a FedEx step
vand that you see.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Now, can you explain what dropping out means?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Oh? Back then, dropping out meant that you gave up
pretty much, gave up all your worldly possessions and you know,
just lived on a day to day basis, you know,
trusting God basically for your food and clothing. And you know,
at least in my parents' mind, that's what they were
(13:19):
aiming for. My dad was a big proponent of non materialism.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Because it was anti establishment. So many social changes were
happening during those years, during the late sixties, middle to
late sixties, culminating of course in nineteen sixty nine with
the crimes. But at that time, everybody it was the
Flower Children. They were all gathering at hate Ashbury because
(13:48):
that's what the LSD was doing. It was creating this
sense of connecting with one another, and so they were
just letting life come and they were getting out of
the establishment, which.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Is awesome, Like LSD. I love LSD. It's great, it's awesome.
Like what, yeah, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
I don't want to take it. I don't want to
do it.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
There's a line.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
But yeah, but that was you know people again. You
can't look at it through the lens of twenty twenty one. Yeah,
you have to look at it as what social changes
were happening right before the sixties and the changing tide.
You had a very repressed post war society in the fifties.
(14:33):
I have an imprint in my publishing company of TV classics,
and I watch the old shows. You know, her Mother
and Diane. They were like the role of women and
they were doing the women stuff and everything was changing, right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
The descriptions of being in Los Angeles in the sixties
sound so exciting. Yeah, I mean, you're going to these
love ins, You're seeing the Beatles at your stadium, You're
hanging out in Laurel Canyon and with all the hippies,
and everyone's like happy and loving, and at least on
the surface, it's like you're living this communal lifestyle in
(15:13):
these various forms before you ever meet Charles Manson. So
like the people coming over and living at your house
and you know you're used to a communal situation.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, no, exactly. My dad got involved with the Oracle.
They a group of them wanted to start the newspaper
that was successful in San Francisco in Los Angeles, and
he was an artist and he got he started doing
those day glow posters, Oh fun, the day glow the
(15:42):
neon psychods, and so he was doing that for them,
and he was, you know, in their art department. And
then they lost their lease or whatever at their house,
and so a bunch of them moved in with us,
and then the paper kind of dwindled. And it was
through the oracle that my dad and a couple of
(16:03):
the other guys decided, Hey, let's you know, go on
the road. Let's drop out, right, And so they bought
these bread trucks and started converting them into like a camper.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
And just to see how exciting that sounds to you
as a young person in today's world, everything was beautiful
until it was car was what happened to you when
you went with that guy to San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Well, a lot of water had gone under the bridge
at that point. But my parents were basically arguing about
what we were just talking about the role of a woman,
the role of a man. It was changing, right, And
they weren't arguing in a mean way, but they were
just philosophically discussing it, you know, and it did kind
of overlap into you know, what are the responsibility? My
(16:55):
dad was always trying to get my mom to come
and sit on the couch with him and read and
listen to Alan Ginsburg and you know, all these enlightened
you know, Autus Huxley, all these enlightened people. But she
had she was a domestic at heart, you know, she
liked keeping a nice house and you know, cooking, providing
(17:15):
for her family. She had three children, right, I was
the oldest. Anyway, At one point we had separated and
they had given me a note, you know, basically giving
me emancipation as a miner to live with this couple.
And then they went to the Grand Canyon and then
they came back and they were going to go to
Big Sir, and they said, hey, you know, they came
by and said you want to go with us, and
(17:37):
it was like yeah, So I went to Big Sir
with them. And it was there at Essalon that I
met this man, I don't know, like thirteen years older
than me, and when you're only fourteen, that's considerable, you know. Yeah,
And he was going to go to San Francisco and
you know, he asked me to go with him, and
I said, sure, yeah, I wanted to go to San Francisco.
(17:59):
By that point, I had enough people that you know,
felt that San Francisco Haye Ashbury area was the scene,
you know, that was the place to go. And so
I went with him, and he ended up being a
drug dealer and left me in his house for you know,
basically two weeks on my own, and I ended up
getting really sick, and when he came back, he took
(18:21):
me back to Big sur and they nursed me back
to health. And then I basically escaped because they lived
behind locked gates and they didn't think I was ready
to leave, and so but I was ready to leave,
and so I hopped the fence and stuck out my
thumb and miraculously got a ride for like three miles
(18:42):
by probably some lecherous old man, and I wasn't cooperating,
so he dropped me off, and then I stuck my
thumb out again and I got this incredible you know,
I got these three angel women in a white Cadillac
picked me up, and they wanted to go to Hollywood
and they wanted to meet Dean Martin and one of
(19:08):
the gallons. They were from New Zealand and anyway, so
I knew the way to Hollywood. I knew enough, you know,
basically Pacific Coast Highway. I knew some people there. I
got them to the Sunset Strip and they dropped me
off there, and then I went to visit a you know,
a person or I knew somebody that knew somebody I
was looking for, you know, a friend of mine and
(19:30):
my parents, you know, like where are they? Because they
they weren't, you know, I didn't know where they went.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
I left, I left.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Them, and they weren't when I went back three weeks later,
and so then it turned out they were at the
hog Farm, so that I ended up at the hog Farm.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
You know, another iconic commune back then. It was Hugh
Romney and Bonnie Jean, his wife, were kind of the leaders,
and you know they later he round me later became
Wavy Gravy.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Wavy Gravy, you.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Know, of Woodstock fame, and they weren't too happy with
me showing up. My parents were happy to see me,
but you know, the community below wasn't too happy with
this commune living on this hill, and so they had
posted guards you know, to not let anybody go up there.
And so here I am, you know, this underage, sexually
(20:25):
active girl. So they had this little talk with me
that they weren't comfortable with my being there because I
was jailbait, you know for some of the young musicians
and the young men coming up to the farm, which
they called it.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Right, it's the girl's fault when an age and appropriate
man wants to have sex with her, he must kick
the girl out, not the men.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Sorry, go on right, right, So, and we appreciate your
perspective on that, because it was very true the women,
it was it was always going to be her fault
because she was an underage you know what. It was
supposedly the sexual revolution, m but that was so one sided, right,
(21:07):
that's my opinion.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I mean, one of Charlie's things was always, you know,
you get rid of your inhibitions. So in other words,
spread your legs far and wide and do my bidding right,
and if you don't, it's your hang up. It's your
hang up.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
That's so.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I just can't imagine how crazy that must have made
you feel. Because free love everyone's doing. If like, if
I'm not participating in this movement, or I don't feel
comfortable with the sexual revolution, Like what's wrong with me
that I have personal boundaries? You know, I just can't
imagine how difficult it must have been at that time.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
Oh there were no boundaries.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
That wasn't even on our rainar.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Then this is your generations right right, benefit of boundaries,
right right, part of the whole.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Knee too thing. I mean, like, you know, People Magazine
did this three page spread on me, and when the
book came out, it came out in the same issue
where Harvey Weinstein and all his accusers were on the
front page, right, And I was like this little one
(22:17):
by two inch blurb on the front page. But it
really was hand in glove with the whole me Too
movement because I was coming out of my shame of
being associated with what with being taken advantage of right?
You know, It's like I was the one that had
(22:37):
the shame. I was the one that didn't want to
be associated and I mean I still really don't, but
it was like that's what these women were coming up against,
you know, is that hey, wait a minute, I was
taken advantage of right. They you know, the casting couch thing, yes,
is very you know, we all knew that was true,
(22:59):
that we just did. I didn't realize the consequences and
what it was really doing that it was the man.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
That was in charge of all of that, right, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
And Charlie. Charlie wanted to be a pimp. You know,
he learned how to be a pimp when he was
in jail so that he could come out and he
could control women.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I learned that from your book. That's such an interesting
fact that he, like, he's just straight up used those
tactics very intentionally.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And we all were broken in some fashion or other.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Well vulnerable, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Had been abused or you know, had had been kicked
out of our family. I mean I was sort of
really kicked out of my family. I think that Bonnie,
Jean and Hugh had a couple of friends come up
and kind of very nicely asked me would I like
to come and live with them? You know, and then
they're the ones that introduced me to Charlie.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I mean, we don't have to dwell on this part
of all, but you did experience so much abuse and
so many inappropriate relationships already by the time that you fourteen,
and reading about that couple made me really angry. I
don't I can't imagine how you must have felt in
your life. But we'll get into that in a minute.
But yeah, what a vulnerable position to be in. And
fourteen is so young. It is so young.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
I'll tell you something, Lola. When I started working with Diane,
I didn't know what to expect. I was just thrilled
and we connected and we started taking this journey together
where I would be interviewing her and getting the story.
And what was so shocking is that during the first
interview Diane was very kind of flat affect and would
(24:35):
just tell you as if she was one place and
her body was somewhere else. And then she told the
story that people would have to read the book, but
there's a very vivid scene of her childhood and she said,
she told me that particular story and then just glossed
over it. And I said, wait, wait, wait, back up,
(24:56):
do you realize what happened to you? And there was
lack of awareness And it wasn't really until we took
the whole journey together where Diane was able to reflect
back and say, you know, I was a victim, right,
So there wasn't awareness of inappropriate relationships and even how
(25:20):
Manson treated her. There was a lot of brainwashing.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh my gosh, yes, so you're at the hog Farm,
Wavy Gravy essentially kicks you out. Tell us what happens next.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Then this other couple, and I think that they were
friends of Hugh and Bonnie Jean, showed up and invited
me to come and stay with them. And they didn't
live at the hog Farm, and so it's like, yeah,
because I didn't feel welcome. They didn't kick me out.
They said I could stay there, but they wanted me
to sleep in the attic, right, and I just I
just didn't feel welcome. And my parents, you know, had
(25:54):
already given me emancipation, and I'd been separated from them
for you know, a month or so, and they didn't
unfold me. Like I said, they were struggling with their
new roles as men and women, and the kind of
consensus there was it takes a village, which I think
Hillary Clinton really coined that phrase. But that was the idea,
(26:17):
is that the adults in the commune kind of collectively
looked over and after all the children.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Or not or not right or not. But I mean
that was the idea.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Until you become of jailbait age and then and then
you're up or then you're in the attic.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Right, and so anyway, so I went with this other couple,
but I didn't enjoy being with them. They shot speed
and I wasn't interested in doing anything besides smoking some
marijuana and taking melosty. And so they invited me to
come along with them to this to hey, meet this
groovy guy and his girls, is basically was the invitation.
(26:58):
And so I went with them and and I walked
in and it was this house that I'd already lived
in with other people, so I knew the house that
I'd never heard of. Charlie and the girls and Isa right, yeah,
at the at the base of the canyon, just in
this little you know, it's now like a park. It's
(27:19):
like a preserve or a reserve type park. Anyway, I
walked in, and I think it was Lynette that came
up and went, Diane, you know, Charlie, Diane's here.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
It's like, what you're like, who.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Are you right?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
How do you know me?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
It was magical and flabbergasting all at the same time.
And Charlie got up from the circle and came and
offered me a drink of his root beer and embraced
me and you know, welcome, hey, come and join us
in the circle, which was, you know, what we did
most of the time, especially in the evening. We'd gather
in a circle and Charlie would plays guitar and play
(27:59):
sing his songs and we would sing along.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
So and Lynette is squeaky correct, Yeah, yeah, Okay, this
redhead girl comes up and is like so excited to
meet you, and you don't know who she is, but
you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers. What
was your first impression of Tarlie? Like, what did he
seem like? What was the vibe?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Fun? Totally, you know, playful. He wasn't an imposing figure
at all. He's a short little guy, you know, or
was a short little man, and you know, with curly hair.
And really, I think I think we've analyze this. I
think he was like thirty three. Well, my youngest son
is thirty one, and I certainly don't think of him
(28:40):
as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest
son is thirty seven. But even when he was thirty three,
I mean, it was like, oh you know, handsome, and
also you need.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
To understand there was an archetype of the long haired
guitar playing guru type person at that time, and he
would have fit into every group I knew, even though
I was just younger enough that I missed some of
that early mid sixties. But everybody, you know, if you
(29:16):
were at a party at your friend's house and somebody
took out a guitar and they had long hair, you
were all enamored. And I mean the guy with the guitar.
That's why they played the guitar right, they could get
the girls.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
At that time.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
He did not look or behave in ways that were
so outrageous. He was also so love bombing with each
of the women that even if he told them, hey,
I just got out of jail, it was like he
gas lit them in a way that made them feel
(29:53):
sorry for him. And all the women wanted to take
care of him and nurture him. And it wasn't like
today we might say, oh, you just got out of
a stint in jail and say, well, maybe I shouldn't
hang out with you. It wasn't like that at all.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
And it was like for forgery. Forgery, and see.
Speaker 5 (30:13):
How they can say now even today. Oh, it wasn't
that big a deal, right, he just was forging you
know why he wasn't He was a perfectly nice psychopath.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I mean right, No, when I could see how if
you're already rebelling against the system and that's like part
of your whole idea, your worldview, then that would be okay.
Speaker 5 (30:33):
Yeah, he was perfect for it. And I'm sure he
was very sexy, and he had trained himself to appeal
to women. And from my research, because Diane, when we
wrote the book, it was Diane's memories, we did nothing
to pollute that. Diane hadn't seen movies. She maybe read
Helter Skelter back when it came out in the day,
(30:55):
but she hadn't seen all the videos and interviews. So
I was doing the research on the side. I read
one account at one point one of his girlfriends basically said,
you're a terrible lover, and she taught him how to
please the women, and then he went back into jail
(31:18):
and learned at the feet of the pimps right how
to control women. So he was training himself, right.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And one of the things I saw on the book
was that one of the things the pimps taught him
was to make the women feel really special and make
them feel really loved, which obviously came very much into
play later on Diane.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
I'm sure you can attest to that he had that. Damn.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, he was a very special lover. I mean he
often would start with this, just this give and take
of your hands, you know, standing in front of each other.
You know, it was a dance. It was sweet. It
was to me, it was it was.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
I remember memory of him in the early early day.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Right, you're putting your hands together, like touching hands and
moving them around. Is that kind of like?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah? And it was just like this give and take,
you know, it.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Was it was like he was leading, right, he.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Was leading, but not forcefully. I mean it was it
was a dance. It was far play, but it was
very sweet, you know, and it was very gentle intimate.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
It seems very intimate.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
Yeah, he really got under under their skin.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah. It wasn't a wam bam, thank you ma'am.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
You know, right, made feel like they were the only
one in his life.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
M So you spend this wonderful night with him, how
do you end up actually coming to stay with them?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
I kind of went back and forth for a few weeks.
They were planning this bus trip to New Mexico and Arizona,
and it was like right after Thanksgiving, and I didn't
want to be left behind. So the gentleman that had
introduced me to Charlie, Richard getting you know, after this
(33:09):
back and forth for a couple of weeks, he said,
you know, I don't I get a bad vibe. You know,
I don't think you should go with them, But I
didn't want to be left behind. It I didn't, you know,
where am I going to go? I didn't want to
go live with Richard and Leegre, and I didn't want
to go back to the I didn't feel welcome at
the hog Farm, and my parents weren't really paving the
(33:29):
way for me, you know, because they'd emancipated me, and
I was on my own, and I was the oldest
of the family. And I had always been very capable
and very an a student, and I'd always been very
independent and capable. Right, it's a new world. So anyway,
that that's what happened. So I went with them.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Can you tell us real quick why they recognized you?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Well, it turned out that Charlie had gone up to
the hog farm while I was in San Francisco. And
of course, you know, you've got two leaders, you know,
you've got you round me and you've got Charlie, two egos.
You know, it was like there, there wasn't like a
mutual and they didn't you admired And they called him
(34:16):
black Bus Charlie.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
But my mom because he had a bus that was black.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah, my mom loved the girls and they all went
on a bus trip. They went on a bus trip
out to the desert looking for gas tanks. Charlie was
obsessed with gasoline. He was always, yeah, he always was
looking for gas tanks that he was going to weld
to the bottom of the bus so that he could
have this you know, unlimited or you know, as much
(34:42):
of an unlimited supply of gas as possible. And then
as he like descended into madness, he often talked about
digging this huge pit and hijacking a gas tanker and
burying it in the desert so that we would have Yeah, no,
I mean that was one of his crazy illusions or delusions.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
He even mentioned it as an aside comment in the
transcripts of the trial, where and people didn't really catch
it what he was talking about. But because I was
so familiar with Diane's story, and then I also did
the book Inside the Mansengery, and it examined all of
(35:22):
the transcripts and makes.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Us oh, it showed up again.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
It does where he says, well, I just want to
go back to the desert and look for gasoline and whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Oh what an interesting detail. Yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
And it's not something people would notice if you didn't
understand his obsession. And it was all about going off
the grid.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Really, ultimately, it always is, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, because my parents had had this encounter with him,
and I was in San Francisco and they talked about
that we're going to go to San Francisco. Charlie and
the girls, We're going to go to San Francisco. My
mom gave them my picture. They gave them a photo
of me, and you're like, Hey, when you're in San Francisco,
(36:06):
look for this girl. You know, it's my daughter, you know.
And whether you know it's I don't know if she
said bring her back, you know, or just you know,
see how she's doing. I'm sure she was worried about me.
I mean, you know, I know she was worried about me.
So it was like either bring her back or you know,
bring me a report or something, right, and so but
(36:27):
I didn't know that. I didn't have that conversation with
my mom before I met Charlie and the girls. And
so when I walked in, see, they already knew.
Speaker 5 (36:34):
Me blind magic like magic Charlie, which, of course he
used all of his seeming miracles to continue to create
the illusion that kept his people loyal.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah. Oh, I was so fascinated by the postulating, the
term postulating and what that meant for you guys, I mean,
can you explain that?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Is well, his idea of postulating was just like I mean,
I think that there was another, you know, leader of
something that talked about positive thinking. So think about something
positively and it will come to you. Well that's what
postulating was. So it was like if we needed money,
if we needed clothes, if we needed food, if we
(37:21):
needed gas, you know, we would think positive kind of
like a meditation. And I mean it's it's like a prayer,
but it wasn't called a prayer, right, you know, it
was it was just sending out into the universe your
needs and it was kind of suspect in some ways.
(37:42):
But I mean later when I thought about it as
a mature adult, But back then we just thought it
was like, Wow, he's really powerful.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Because your needs were getting met because you would he
would always get right.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
And I'm sure that he manipulated some of that.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
That was also how people were thinking. And LSD would
expand your idea, your consciousness and this sense of connectedness
to all everything, the rocks, the universe, right, and it
was like they were creating this, you know, this manifestation
(38:23):
of anything that they needed. And that's also the idea
of going off, going away from the establishment and living
off the land and everybody loves each other, and you know,
it was that was the mindset.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
How often was he on LSD.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
We took honesty pretty frequently, I think that. But he
had a couple of bad trips. I remember there was
one really chaotic trip. We had decorated the back ranch
house with tapestries, you know on the walls and the ceilings,
you know, the Indian tapestries and you know, mattresses. It
(39:00):
was you know, we were gonna have had a special
guest musician who played the c tar. That's all I
remember is we took the LSD. We're all ready. I
think it was Paul Watkins that was on the cetar
and he plucked one string and it just was like
(39:21):
and I was gone. I mean, I like followed that
note into infinity.
Speaker 5 (39:26):
Wow, I'm not encouraging the use of drugs a little
too fun.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
I can't remember anything until I woke up in the
morning and the place was a shambles.
Speaker 5 (39:39):
Well, and there's another thing that Diane remembered and also
was confirmed through other research, is that it's possible that
some of the reason that Manson ultimately did descend into
madness was he did have a really bad trip. It
was a messionic trip where he claims to have relived
(40:04):
the Crucifixion. And also, which is not uncommon, Alan Ginsberg,
when he took his LSD trip, suddenly became messionic. So
the whole generation of people were following someone who basically
had a psychotic break, right, And so you think of
it that way, and the followers or the family they
(40:27):
were taking LSD. He was administering it regularly, but he
didn't always take.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
It m.
Speaker 5 (40:35):
Or he didn't take as much right, so he could.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Be in control.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yes, especially after that trip and then there had been
I mean the trip, I think the trip where he
experienced the crucifixion that he he was the messiah on
across took place in San Francisco. But then he I
remember a trip when we were at the Spiral Stirk
House where he re enacted.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
That right is subconscious, you know.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
And on LSD, you know, you see these light streams
from your hands and it just an ore and so
it's you know, it's very you see lots of light
reflected and so with anyway, so he had us convinced,
(41:27):
you know that we were seeing like a stigmata. I'm
sure that he used that.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Can you paint a picture of just what life was
like at first once you're living with them, Like what
are you doing every day?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Well, you know, everybody needs to eat and go to
the bathroom and shower, and so a lot of you know,
your life is revolves around you know, procuring and taking
care of those needs. So cooking, you know, we did
cooking and cleaning, and we made love and in the
evening we'd get in the circle and sing songs and
(41:59):
he'd give us a his little talk tos, which you know,
we're often about getting rid of your inhibitions and just
the whole new alternative culture kind of mindset. So it
wasn't it wasn't a total break from what I'd kind
of heard before, but it had just taken on, you know,
(42:20):
a new life. And as we moved along, he became
more protective. You know, he discouraged outside relationships unless I mean,
if he were going to bring somebody into the family.
But he was very selective.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Was he very selective about the women as well, or
just mostly selective about the men?
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I think mostly the guys, Yeah, yeah, but I think
the girls, you know, the girls too. I mean, he
wanted he wanted them all to be beautiful, you know,
because as things moved forward, you know, and we got
closer to going to the desert, and once we, you know,
were introduced to the desert place, he'd always had been
(42:59):
talking about this black white race war. And it wasn't
until the White album came out, but it got nicknamed,
you know, Helter Skelter. But the whole idea he wanted beautiful.
He wanted us to make beautiful children and repopulate the world,
you know, after the apocalypse because that's basically what it
(43:19):
was going to be, you know, and then the black
Man wasn't going to be able to handle it, and
then he was they were going to ask for Charlie's help.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
You know, right, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
I mean, it's just like when I talk about it,
I just I think, you know, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
He sprinkled a little bit of everything in there.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Yeah he did. And I think he I'm a special
teacher or I'm a retired special education teacher specialized in autism,
and you can get stuck, you know, you can get
stuck in these mindsets. And I think that's kind of
what happened to him, you know, whether he was on
(43:59):
the spectrum or not.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
It's interesting that was like gasoline sounds like his special
interest or something. You know.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, he did have these fixations.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Have these elevators, tractors, dinosaurs, whatever, you know. I mean,
they get fixated on.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Something and then that brain on LSD all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Right, So but he I think he had an auditory.
Uh he was kind of a savant auditorily, which to
me that meant that to me, what that meant was
kids with autism, I mean they can recite whole movies,
so stuff that he would hear, and he wasn't a
good reader. Lynette would have to read stuff for him.
(44:39):
But I think auditorily, I mean, he was as a
young person exposed to all kinds of sermons and then scientology,
and I mean and in jail music and so I
think that so he had all this auditory input that
I think he you just regurgitations kind it out right.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yes, and he would mix it up, you know, mirror
whatever the person he was talking to need it probably
little snippets.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
I think the little snippets of what he'd heard formed
his life reality on reality. He was gifted in that,
you know. And even with music, you know, he didn't
read music, you know, it was all auditory. So I
think he had this kind of almost a savant ability
(45:31):
to remember things auditorily.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
That makes total sense. What was your relationship with him?
Like he'd be very kind obviously, but then he would
suddenly hit you right and like when you weren't expecting
it or like can you just describe that dynamic a
little bit?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah. I think that as time went on and he
you know, he started having more control and and like
a bigger delusion or you know, idea of where we
were going or where he wanted us to go as
a family, and I just I don't think I was
totally on board, which I thank god, I thank god
(46:12):
that I wasn't right. And recently I kind of got
reacquainted with Catherine Chaer Gypsy, and she's ten years older
than me. She was kind of tasked with watching out
for me, or watching over me for Charlie.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Keeping an eye on you, keeping an eye on me.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
Yeah, it was also watching out for you because of Charlie,
because she saw that he was mistreating you.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
But she said that I would, you know, I would,
I would listen that I would lose my focus and
I would just get up and wander off and like whatever.
So and I think that really it bothered him, and
I wasn't setting a good example, so he would make
an example.
Speaker 5 (47:02):
And just think about it. You've got a cult leader, right.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
You weren't submissive enough.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
She would roll her eyes and kind of say, Charlie,
that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
It was very cool to re connect with somebody that
knew me back then who was older. I mean ten
years older. That's significant, you know. And she had a
much wiser, more worldly view of everything.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Wow, that's so great that you guys got to connect, right, right.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I mean, this has been this has been such an
incredible journey since since I wrote the book, and you know,
the different interviews, and it's not just regurgitating what I
wrote in the book. I mean, it's like there's been
this whole because now I've read and seen more interviews
and been in, you know, quite a few documentaries and
(47:53):
seeing other people's tape, and so the whole thing has
really kind of, you know, evolved into a more mature,
deeper understanding of what happened to me and what happened
to him. And you know, it's still kind of hard
for me to understand how the murders happened.
Speaker 5 (48:15):
Yeah, but you know what's interesting, working with Diane and
doing so much research and then looking at the bigger
picture of cult behavior, it helped me understand how these
things can happen. And I went into working with Diane
with the question of how could this happen? Because these
(48:37):
were troubled young women. But they weren't what you would
think as maybe a throwaway or a young criminal, or
you know, they were not They were from mostly from affluent, homes, intelligent,
and people need to understand that when you have an
unequal power relationship, this kind of brainwashing or ultimate abuse
(49:04):
or control can happen in very It comes in many
many forms.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Exactly, anyone can be vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment in
their life where they find a person or a group
that seems to be the answer to their problems and
that it really seems like what you needed at that
time in your life. Diane was a family and voila, Diane, Diane,
We've been waiting for you, like booms, there's a family,
(49:32):
you know, especially that age, I mean, gosh, yeah, fourteen
is so young.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something,
and that's how gangs and isis. And you know all
of these these terrorists, even terrorist groups, you know, they absolutely, yeah,
get get sucked in because they want to be part
of something bigger than themselves and to feel We all
do in some I think in some.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Ways absolutely, I know I do, and yeah, debort to
feel special. Absolutely, I want to feel special. I want
to belong Topically.
Speaker 5 (50:09):
Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are
a cult leader, but what happens is with the progression
of that adulation from any group of people, it will
ultimately lead to having power over others and the mindset ultimately,
you know, just like in a domestic violence situation, the
(50:32):
people become isolated from the outside world. They're the only
information they're receiving is from the leader and the group,
so they're all kind of harvesting the same information and
it becomes a reality. And that's why someone from the
outside can look at the mindset and some of the
things that Diane and the others were believing at the time,
(50:55):
and they were believing it, and to the outside, it's
how how could you believe that? But when you're on
the inside, it is reality.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
I mean I know that firsthand.
Speaker 5 (51:07):
I know you too.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
You know, I'm curious about your relationship with the other girls.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
How was that In the beginning?
Speaker 3 (51:14):
I would say I was the closest really to Lynette
Squeaky Squeaky, Yeah, yeah, Lynette and Charlie and I and
then Patty. I wasn't ever really that close to Susan Atkins.
But Patty was like the mother Earth. I mean, she
was like the salt of the earth. I mean, she
(51:34):
was just so down to earth. So incredibly down to earth.
So I felt close to her. When Leslie came on
the scene, I didn't feel I just didn't have anything
in common with her other than Charlie or text, you know,
because I never went to high school and so and
she was like homecoming queen or a princess or something,
(51:57):
you know, just totally I had no clue. I had
no clue what that was all about. And so to me,
she just seemed like, you know, very shallow and aloof
and just a silly girl. I don't know. I mean,
you know, she wasn't down to earth. You know, she
was very flighty, and Sandy was a prima donna to me.
(52:21):
You know, she was a spoiled rich girl and you know,
who felt like she'd been abused by her family. She
was kind of manipulative, and she wasn't my best friend.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
I mean, I think it's just cool to hear this perspective,
because when you hear manson girls, you picture this like
monolith of the girls with the crosses, and they are
zombies and they're all have the exact same personality. But no,
like everyone was so different from each other.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
But I had been you know, I hadn't really been
part of that aspect at all.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Oh, you need to understand that what you saw at
the trial was very much orchestrated from behind the scenes
between Manson Squeaky. There was a lot of manipulation of
the legal system because they had a goal, and that
was to get him out.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Right, of course, So there's a whole.
Speaker 5 (53:16):
Backstory and a continuation. By that time, Diane was at
Patent State and was being held there for her own
safety and for treatment until she would.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Testify, right, And I want to get into that.
Speaker 5 (53:29):
I don't mean to jump ahead, but the picture that
people have of these zombie like girls, they were true
believers at that point in Manson and that he was
Man's son and that he was their only saving grace,
that this race war was going to happen, and the
only person who could save them would be him, and
(53:52):
they fully believed it, and they were all boiled to him, right.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
And I think some of the proof of that, to
me is just how far gone they were in that belief.
Was the fact that when we got arrested for burning
a road grader in Death Valley, it didn't have anything
to do with the murders. But Susan Atkins had a
(54:16):
warnt out and she got transferred to you know, La
County Jail, and it was there that she started telling
her roommates about Charlie, right, And I mean did she
I think she really thought that the doors of the
jail were just going to fall off and they were
going to be free to go to the desert with Charlie.
(54:40):
And she was still like proud of that and trying
to I think, trying to convince these ab cellmates about
the reality. And then she started, you know, she believed
it so much that she started to tell them what
her part in these teneous murders. It's like, why would
(55:01):
you do that unless you were.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Totally totally brainwashed.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Without a doubt brainwashed.
Speaker 5 (55:08):
And think about it too. At that time, there were
a lot of counter revolutionary groups, and at the time
before they people understood what had really happened and why,
there were some of the counter revolutionary groups supporting what
had happened, thinking that it was a strike against the establishment. Oh,
(55:30):
and they actually felt that the murders were like a
revolutionary Yeah, there were horrible collateral damage, but this was
something good for the cause.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 5 (55:42):
Wowun is up and up is down, and you have
to consider the times.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
I guess I knew that there were lots of domestic
bombings for political purposes, so I guess I could see
how that would make sense. But yeah, I had no
idea anyone interpreted it that way.
Speaker 5 (55:59):
I can't think of the particular group. But there were,
you know, radical groups that came out in favor of
what he did. Now, of course, later they didn't necessarily
support him, but at first they thought that this you know,
they were attacking the establishment and making a statement, and
you know, until they realized that it was very crazy.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
So back to the girls for a second. Did you
experience any jealousy because you had to share? I'm calling
him Charlie just because that's what the book called him.
Speaker 3 (56:36):
You know, when I think of him, I I don't
call him Charles Manson, right, you know, he's Charlie. I remember, though,
thinking at some point that I was in love with
him and that I wanted him to just take me,
yeah off and marry me. You know, that was in
the very early state, you know, very early stages. But
(56:59):
they're really wasn't. I mean, we were like you know,
sister wives for the most part, I mean, and that's
what he encouraged, you know. So that was part of
the brainwashing, is that we were to squelch those feelings
of jealousy. That wasn't that wasn't okay. You know, you
need to share and you know, share a like, and
(57:22):
he did when you did spend time with just him,
he did make you feel like you were you know,
you were the special one. So and that was part
of his training, and he pulled it off for the
most part.
Speaker 2 (57:36):
How did you get the nickname Snake?
Speaker 3 (57:39):
I actually was responsible probably for giving myself that thing.
Not that I wanted that nickname, but I had been
fasting and because Charlie. That was one of Charlie's things too,
is that we didn't really need food, so you know,
and we certainly didn't want to get fat. And so
I had been on like a lemon and honey fast
forbably twenty days. Holy moly.
Speaker 5 (58:02):
I didn't realize it was that long.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
Yeah, And anyway, and it was a hot summer day
at the top of you know, Topanga Canyon and.
Speaker 5 (58:09):
Talk about hallucinating.
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Ill and I wasn't really even hallucinating. I just you know,
I'm a kid and I just imagined what it would
be like slithering through the tall cool grass as a snake,
and so I just recat I mean, it's just, you know,
it wasn't even like something I physically saw. It was
(58:33):
just something that I got in the skin of the
snake and what that would be like. And I was
wanting that, you know, imagery to the girls in the
kitchen into one of the places that we lived in
Topanga Canyon and there from then on, I was Snake.
Charlie gave everybody nicknames, so I just didn't have one yet, right.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yeah, take away your original identity.
Speaker 3 (59:02):
But you know what's interesting, But I just found this
out a couple of years ago, is that in the
Chinese zodiac, I was born in the year of the Snake.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Come on, that's crazy. Three, very good.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
It's humbling to have that nickname snake.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah. So you were all dumpster diving, some people were
stealing cars. You're I mean, I guess you sort of
described every day. It's just everyday life is like getting
the things done that you need to get done. How
did you feel when the race work talk stuff began.
Did you feel uncomfortable with that at all?
Speaker 3 (59:43):
Like, what was that like, yeah, it was you know,
it was a little disconcerting. I grew up in Minnesota
and my father and mom had you know, African American
friends that would come over for dinner and they were
just you know, I didn't have but in Los Angeles,
(01:00:03):
you know, and then the Black Panthers and then you know,
and Charlie would talk about it, and he'd been hearing
about it, you know, since he was a little guy
in reform school and then prison, so this was like, oh,
insider information kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (01:00:20):
In the context of the times. It sort of overlapped
the peaceful demonstrations with Martin Luther King and he was
assassinated in nineteen sixty eight, so you know, it was
all during that time that at the same time, there
was this undercurrent of activists who were the Black Panthers,
(01:00:42):
who were saying, no, let's not do this peacefully, let's
do you know, let's do this, let's have a revolution,
and so it all was overlapping. So I think the
rhetoric was supporting his upside down, thinking that this was
going to happen and us. Another thing that you have
(01:01:03):
to consider is that he would take pieces of information
from many different sources and right down the street literally
from I mean we drove there when we did our tour,
right down from Spawn Ranch was right.
Speaker 6 (01:01:20):
What is it like a Fountain of the World world
And they're another cult, yes, and their leader he espoused
a race war and all of his followers believed in
that race war.
Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
And so again you've got a mishmash christ Naventa, thank you.
That was gonna bother me all night, Christianava.
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
This is another cult leader that like everybody kind of knows.
Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
Or it's well, he didn't. He was murdered or bombed,
but the actual cult housing in the buildings are still there.
Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
I bet a remnant of them still are part of
that cult.
Speaker 5 (01:02:03):
And they went there. Diane went there with Yeah, we went.
Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
We tried to recruit them, or we wanted them to
recruit us. I don't know, we want we tried to
combine forces with them. Oh.
Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Interesting, that could have made it way worse.
Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
Yes, they didn't like Charlie.
Speaker 6 (01:02:19):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Oh, they were like opposing cult leaders exactly.
Speaker 5 (01:02:25):
Well, and their cult leader was dead but they were
still loyal to him.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Oh, so they were dead, and Charlie was like, let
me go get these people who need a new leader.
Speaker 5 (01:02:32):
Ahh, making over an ant hill or something.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Fas fascinating, And we will leave it there for now.
Stay tuned for next week. There is so much more
to get into, Megan. Yes, say you're fourteen, Los Angeles sixties,
pretty unstable childhood, lots of moving around, lots of communes,
lots of predatory men coming after you. What do you
(01:02:58):
think would you?
Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Absolutely would you meet up with Charlie?
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Absolutely? Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, yeah, go on, I mean how I mean, just in.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Pure survival mode. She needed someplace to go and I
would have too. And I think he from what I've
read and what he sounds like, he can be very
seductive in making you feel like there's a bigger purpose.
And that's very compelling for my personal brain. So I
totally understand your personal brain. My personal brain, my public brain.
(01:03:34):
Totally different story.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
I agree, absolutely, Even just the moment that she described
when she shows up to this house and they all
just know who she is and they know her name
and they welcome her with open arms after being kicked
out of this other place. I mean, even at age
thirty three, my current age, that would be very alluring
to me. Yeah, But imagine at fourteen. Oh my god.
(01:04:00):
The age that we've talked about this in the past,
fourteen is the age that, or maybe thirteen, but that
I prayed to Satan for friends because God hadn't delivered me, really,
you know, and.
Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
You believed in God, so that was a like real, right.
Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
I was desperate, so imagine and I had great parents
who were you know, like loving parents, and I can't
even imagine, like I can't imagine not joining the group
at that time. Same, yeah, and of course, like it's
all about this slow descent, right, his slow descent into madness,
and by that point, that's your life, that's your community.
(01:04:34):
So I urged people to consider, you know, obviously, some
horrific murders happened. It's easy to think we could never
do that because it's so horrible, but I urge folks
to consider if they were in that same situation, you know,
and on all kinds of LSD, you might be susceptible.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Do you think that if he hadn't gone so far
down with drugs there would have been a totally different outcome.
Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
I don't know, because it seems like there was genuine
mental illness an instability there already, like he'd had a
track record of committing crimes his whole life, even in
and out of jail, his whole life, So it doesn't
seem like he was on the straight and arrow other
than drugs, you know what I mean? Right, It seems
like classic sociopath stuff like the unpredictable violent behavior. Clearly
had a conscience, hadn't been much of a factor for him.
(01:05:18):
So yea, So maybe it wouldn't have gotten to that
particular point. But you know, one always wonders if the
music career had gone well, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Isn't Andrew Keegan? Doesn't he have a cult in Venice?
Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
I don't know if it's a cold or if it's
a religion. I think he's like a pastor. Oh, people
call it a could. I don't know if it's a
cold or if it's just like an independent religion. But
we should have him on and find out.
Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
I've randomly spent a lovely afternoon with Andrew Keegan because
I ran into him on the beach, didn't know who
he was, and he had a parrot and a pug
and a Pomeranian.
Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
I'm sorry, does he only have pets that start with pee?
A parent pug and a Pomeranian.
Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Walk into a part.
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
But yeah, you know it's it's some crazy ship.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
So yeah, yeah, wow parrot, just have a parrot. All right,
y'all come back next week and hear the rest of
the story.
Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Yes, please do. I can't wait for y'all to hear
the end of the story. And for now, remember to
follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never
ever trus me me
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