January 15, 2025 • 34 mins
Episode 23: Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth continue to interview Frank Lyford, former member of Heaven's Gate. In part 2, they discuss the growing number of red flags he began to notice after one of the leaders died, including talk of castration, and what led to his decision to finally, after 18 years, break away. He also tells the girls what it was like when he heard about the mass suicide on the news, how heartbreaking that was, the lessons he's learned as a result, and what his life is like now. Original Airdate: 03/17/2021
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trust me.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Trust Me.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm like a swat person I've never lived to you never.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Live if you think that one person has all the answers.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two former cult members who've actually
experienced it. I'm Megan Elizabeth Lola isn't here for the
intro today, but she's part of this incredible interview, So
let's jump into part two with former Heaven's Gate member
Frank Lloyd. We'll discuss the growing number of red flags
(00:52):
Frank began to notice after one of the leaders died,
including talk of castration and what led to his decision
to finally, after eighteen years, breakaway. Also, he shares the
heartbreaking story of how he first heard about the mass
suicide on the news. The Lessons he's learned as a
result and what his life is like now. Our heart
really goes out to anybody affected by the Los Angeles fires.
(01:13):
So Lola and I are fine, We are safe, but yeah,
just a lot of grief and stuff too move through.
So thank you everybody who reached out. And without further ado,
let's speak to Frank.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So we left off last week with Frank telling us
about how he had been in the group for a
long time at this point and Tea one of the
two leaders. It was Tea and Doe, and Tea was
the woman and Doe was the man who you've probably
seen in the videos that they made. Tea died of
cancer and this was totally against their plans. They were
going to be taken up into space while they were
still alive. So things started really changing with Doe. He
(01:54):
started getting more controlling, he started getting more obsessive, and
basically he started talking about suicide. So that's where we
left off last week, and we'll catch up with him
now he's passing.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
In that way had a huge impact on doees thinking
about how the graduation would occur, and that worked on
him over the coming months and years to the point
where he began to entertain ideas of how we might
do our vehicles in which was entirely diametrically posed to
(02:25):
the way it was originally presented.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
How was it originally presented?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
We will be taken up in a craft while we're conscious,
we will ascend while conscious and alive.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
But now t has died, so there must he's got
to find a way to reshape the narrative.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Right, And as Sawyer mentioned, he talked about how he
came across a book about how to take one's life
and he was shocked. Yeah, he found it cleaning up
those quarters one time, and that queued him into the
fact that Doe was considering how we might leave by
taking your lives. That happened shortly after Tea passed on.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
What did you think about that?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
It was a huge red flag for me, but I
suppressed it. I couldn't bring it up. I couldn't talk
to anybody about it because it would have been at
least I thought it would have been seen as doubting
my older member. But there were other red legs like that.
I mean one thing. In April of nineteen ninety three,
(03:31):
a branch Davidiant caught fire in Waco, Texas, and that
made a huge impression on Dough. That got him thinking
about how maybe we should learn to fire firearms and
that would stimulate our own demise. And you know, that
was a huge red leg for me, like, oh yeah,
(03:53):
like that's gonna work really well, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
As In, like, if you had guns, a standoff with
the police would happen and they would kill you, right right.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
But not necessarily a standoff. Simply the fact that we
had guns would cause an altercation that would end up
taking our lives. But I think they decided that would
be too messy. This was after I left. They decided
not to do that. But Waco happened in April of
ninety three and I left in August.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
What can you talk to us about the time when
you and Erica both go back to Calgary and visit
your families.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think that's after Tea's passing, probably like around September
eighty five, since both their families were in Calgary, Dough
decided we could be each other's check partners.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Why were you allowed to go home?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
This was the second visit I believe, back to visit
our families, And the reason that that came up was
because a mother of one of the members had been
in com Intact had somehow been making contacts with different
X members and gathering information about us, you know, trying
(05:10):
to locate her son. She was also making contact with
other members who are still in the group their families.
She started putting out a newsletter every month or two Goodness,
and they would all receive news and updates through this network.
My parents were in the network, and Erica's parents were
(05:32):
in the network. So the visits to families were designed
to allay our family's fears about what we were doing,
that we weren't in danger, and you know, we weren't
up to no good and we were healthy and happy,
and that was what it was designed to do. So
one visit was before Tea passed on, and the other
(05:55):
visit was afterwards. So we were going to travel together.
Traveled back to Calgary and we had a layover in
Salt Lake City, so we were sitting in the secluded
area of the airport. There was not much activity, and
I felt this overwhelming feeling of love for Erica that
(06:21):
I hadn't allowed myself to feel even though we lived
in the same house. I would always suppress bit in
the routines of everyday life. Plus being surrounded by other
group members, of their class members, was like any feeling
(06:43):
like that got drowned out amongst the vibrational, energetic chatter
of our everyday life. So being alone with her, none
of those intervening influences had a chance to suppress that.
(07:03):
So I reached over and I gave her a hug.
And I think they may have misquoted me or something.
I've done several documentaries. But what happened was she quickly
said as I hugged her that she had asked though
if she could hug me, and he had said yes.
(07:26):
I never had the foresight to ask hug her, and
I never thought that I would never considered it. But
I mean that to me illustrates the level of conditioning
of the group that Erica would have the foresight to
ask if it was okay to give me.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
A hug, just to have a hug. Yeah. Wow, What
did it feel like that hug?
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, it was it was like the flood of everything
that I had suppressed towards her came rushing up and
it was intense. This was in my mind, but I
didn't have the courage to express it. But if she
(08:16):
had said to me, let's stop doing this, less runaway,
let's not do this anymore, I would have said, definitely, yes,
I agree, Les, let's quit it. It's silly. But I
was of two minds. I had the conditioning of the group,
(08:36):
so did she, So I didn't let myself express that.
I didn't think she would be amenable to it anyway.
She probably wouldn't have been.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, what a moment. Yeah, gosh, that's still in the eighties, right.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I think this was eighty five eight.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
More years you were in You told a story in
the documentary of insulting your masculinity that have been.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Shortly after Tea passed on. The goal was always to
let go of our masculinity, let go of our femininity,
to be in the middle, to be androgynous, because members
of the kingdom level of human are androgenous. They have
no sexuality, they have no mammalian behavior. So this particular
(09:28):
morning we were meeting in the morning, I was at
the front. Everyone was seated in semicircles around him, and
I raised my hand to ask a question or maybe
to in our reservation. I don't remember what it was,
but I spoke up, and it was shortly after we
had gotten up, so my voice was a little bit husky,
(09:51):
It had a morning huskiness to it. And those response
was not to reply to me, but to mimic my
voice in a what's the word like mocking or well
I was mocking, but in a way to emphasize the
deepness of the voice to convey a point to me.
(10:16):
And my response was to feel extremely humiliated, yeah, and
feel this smoldering resentment and anger within me that I
couldn't express because to do so it would have been
to question him, to disrespect him as our teacher, as
(10:37):
our leader. So I had this tremendous internal conflict going
on that I couldn't express in any way. You know,
if I were to have had a free feeling, like
I could have free expression of what I was feeling
and thinking, I would have. Oh, I would have used
some explicits. Probably how the f dare you put me down?
(10:59):
And this way? You know, you say you're a leader,
you put yourself up there from the class as a teacher,
as somebody having wisdom that you're trying to impart to us,
and yet you do this behavior of mocking and putting down.
(11:20):
But I couldn't. I couldn't say that, so I stuffed
that emotion. My understanding of that now is that when
we suppress our emotion, when we stuff away emotion that's unprocessed,
it ends up residing energetically in our bodies. It resides
(11:40):
energetically in our cellular structure and in our oric field,
and it can eventually turn into disease if we don't
allow it to express and we don't allow ourselves to
process it anyway. That's a tangent. But over the course
of the next few weeks, I gradually developed a stutter
(12:04):
and inability to really speak clearly and fluently. Was as
if this energetic suppression was itself being expressed as the
inability to express my own thoughts freely. And I still
(12:25):
have the residual of that. I haven't freed myself from
it completely, much better than I have been. But that's
another illustration of the dynamic of cult leader over cult member.
Wow to me, looking back, the result of Tea's passing
had a detrimental effect on Dough. He became more controlling,
(12:50):
He became more ocd, probably out of insecurity of being
left with guiding the class on his own regardless, That's
what I saw, what I experienced. The episode of him
making fun of my voice to me was an example
(13:11):
of that stepping back for a second looking at it
as a life coach, because I'm a life coach right now,
and as a life coach without compassion, it would be
a terrible life coach. Without empathy, I would be a
terrible life coach. Without active intuition, it would be a
(13:31):
terrible life coach. And to me, in the exchange that
we had that day with Oh, he lacked intuitive awareness,
he lacked empathy, he lacked compassion.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Can you tell us about the final straw?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Well, I mentioned there were some red legs coming up
along the way toward the end was the idea of
learning to fire firearms. There's another one as well. They
were first beginning to talk about in nineteen ninety three,
and that was the idea of getting castrated. The men
(14:16):
getting castrated right because of the sexual impulses that they
wanted to lessen. They thought that would help. And that
was a red flag to me.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, were you still in the group when they began
or no?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Well, apparently I was, but I didn't know because they
didn't tell us that was when the first.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
One took place, and that was there was only one correct.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
No, there was one, and then ultimately I think there
were six or seven. Wow, man who had castrations.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
There was one guy who went first, what was his name,
cerroty Previdy.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That was really sad. I know, it broke my heart,
and then the other people following, and actually Doe was
also frustrated, right correct, Yeah, wow, so so heartbreaking. You're
like every little piece of identity is just stripped away
from all of you, just every single possible thing right
down to your sex. I mean, gosh, it's a miracle
(15:17):
that you were able to break away.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
That last year that I was in the group I worked.
I mentioned I worked for Microsoft, and that got me
interested in software. I started out as a receptionist, but
I learned to use Microsoft Excel. That was their brand
new spreadsheet program that Microsoft came out with. So I
(15:41):
worked for Microsoft for two years in the Dallas sales office.
My boss, who is the regional sales manager for the
Southern Region, was being promoted to national sales manager for Microsoft,
and he had asked me to go with him as
his assistant. Of course, I couldn't. I was in the.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Culton that I'll do it.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
But here's the thing. If I had gone, they were
offering stock options at that point, so I would have
been a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Oh Frank, don't break my heart. Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So anyway back to the year before I left. The
year before that year, I worked for this fellow in
Phoenix who was this software business owner, and he hired
me to kind of help get his head above water,
I found out later because he was drowning. His customers
were not pleased, so he wanted to hire me to
(16:43):
help get things back on track with his customers. He
was a terrible, terrible customer service. So I worked for
him for a year until I had enough and it
was time for me to get ato the job. Doe said, yeah,
go ahead, good, done the job. So I did. I
got another job with one of his competitors, that fellow
who's terrible customer service. I got a job with the
(17:06):
woman who was also in the same business and had
been getting a lot of his customers, and now she
got one of his developers. She was a really good
boss to work for. So think of this juxtaposition. Now
I work for this woman, I was her first full
time employee. She treated me really, really well. We designed
(17:30):
software together. She gave me full rein on how I
wrote the software. When we had happy customers, which was
virtually all the time, she gave me full credit for
those happy customers. So I was treated really well. And
you know, my creative uses could flow in this software business,
(17:52):
whereas going back to the class at night on the weekends,
there's no uniqueness, no creativity allowed. You totally line you
follow procedures. You know, Doe's view of perfection was the
Star Trek civilization known as the Borg. I know, if
you watched Star Trek, you will be assimilated and resistance
(18:16):
is feudal and you're part of the machine and you're
a cog in the wheel. So working for this woman
made life bearable, right even though I suppressed the fact
that it wasn't bearable, The fact that I needed that,
you know, the fact that that made it bearable should
(18:36):
have been a blaring message to me, but it wasn't.
So then at the end of August it was time
to move again. We would move every year or two,
so we were moving to San Diego. So I thought, okay,
no big deal. I've quit my job plenty of times before.
We just go to the new place and get a
new job, no big deal. On the drive between Phoenix
(19:00):
San Diego, I started having this feeling in the pit
of my stomach. I just can't be here anymore. I
didn't intellectually understand that it was just this gnawing feeling
that I couldn't ignore, you know. So I had a
check partner with me in the car, and I talked
(19:21):
to her about this, and she suggested that I speak
with Doe when we got to San Diego. So I did,
and he said, okay, we I'll sleep on it and
I'll talk to you in the morning. I slept on
it still felt the same way in the morning, and
then he said, okay, well, let's have an eating A
(19:42):
little while later, they called me upstairs to Doe's quarters
and there were four other classmates there with Doe. Four
of his trusted helpers, of which Sawyer was one. Sir Odie,
who had the first castration, was in and then Live
Odie and Jane Odi, who were the two who helped
(20:05):
Doe with tea before she passed on, and they were
there kind of as a buffer like I was at
one end of a work table, and I was at
the other and the other four were on the long
end as a buffer between Doe and me. It was
kind of like an intervention to talk some sense into me.
He took a couple of different approaches. First, he said, well,
(20:28):
you haven't done anything to make me displeased with your
behavior or anything. You're a good student. There's no reason
for you to leave. And I just kept turning to
this gut knowing I couldn't ignore, or I knew I
had to follow it no matter where it took me
at and even the gut knowing went against my mental
(20:49):
conditioning h but I had no choice but to follow this.
So Dough changed his approach a little bit, bringing up
the thought that, well, you know that the world will
be plowed under when we leave, and you know you
will lose your life along with all of the others
as the civilization is plowed under. They thought of the
(21:12):
earth as a garden for souls, and periodically the garden
gets plowed under with each new season. So that was
the analogy. And because this crop of souls had resulted
in so few coming into this classroom circumstance with ten
do the crop was bad. So that meant the crop
(21:35):
had to be plowed under. The civilization had to be
plowed under through earth changes like earthquakes or the switch
of the Earth's sacks, this resulting in huge earth changes.
That's what they thought. And it didn't matter to me
what he said, whatever he said, I just kept returning
to this gut knowing said up, sorry, no matter where
(21:57):
this leads me, even though I'm plowed under whatever, I
have to follow this gut knowing. So he said, okay, well,
we'll get you a double bag packed up, and we'll
give you one thousand bucks, and you can get a
bus ticket or a plane ticket wherever you want to go,
and we'll take you. And that'll be that. It's not
(22:19):
like they wanted me there against my will, because that
would have been disruptive to everyone else's focus.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Wow, that's actually very surprising. I feel like generally the
stories are, you know, kind of trying to bully people
into staying right. In nineteen ninety seven, the remaining members
of Heaven's Gate have their exit planned. They believe that
(22:50):
there's a flying saucer hiding behind the Hailbop comet, and
they believe they're going to teleport to it. So thirty
nine people commit suicide together and Rancho Santa Fe, California
by taking apple sauce or putting the lace with the
deadly drug. And it's, you know, just such a tragedy.
How did you find out and how did you feel?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well? I was living in white Rock, British Columbia, which
is right by the border, and I was working in Bellingham, Washington,
So I lived in Canada, worked in the US, and
I was coming home from work at night and I
heard a radio report on the news as I was
(23:39):
driving home. It said that a group of all male
monks had been found in San Diego to have committed suicide.
You know, it was a breaking story at that point,
and I knew it was. Chills ran up and down
(24:06):
my spy and I knew it was then. And then
the story developed over the next few days and came
out that day. The police thought that they were all
male because they all have the same haircut. I appeared
(24:27):
on the Larry King Live TV program news program. This
was April first, so it was my April for Fools joke.
I was on, Sawyer was on, and another fellow who
was an ex member who had left before I had left.
Was also on all three of us were ex members.
(24:48):
They flew me from Bellingham to Seattle for the satellite uplink,
so there was a clip in the HBO documentary of
me with the long hair, and that was from Larry
King Live. So from that the local newspapers started calling me.
My phone didn't stop ringing. I didn't want to give
(25:09):
any local interviews. I was heartbroken, and yet even at
that point, after having been out of the group for
three and a half years, I felt like they had
the right to live their life as they wanted, and
they had the right to take their lives as they
(25:29):
saw a fit. I wrote a letter to all of
my coworkers in the company where I worked because they
I was aware several people had seen the Larry King
Live episode, so I wanted to stem the tide of
the rumor mill and just let people know what was
going on it. I lost many, many friends who I
(25:54):
shared a great deal with, not just my cousin, not
just my ex girlfriend. That I was heartbroken, I can imagine.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, and your last conversation with Erica was when you.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Were leaving, right It was two days after I left,
So she had called me at my parents. I was
staying with my parents in Calgary because that's where I
went when I left the group. And you know, I
knew she would have had somebody else on the line,
a check partner on the other extension while she was
talking to me. But she implored me to come back
(26:37):
to the group, repeating some of the things that Doe
had said of you know, there's no reason for you
to be out there. You belong here. I have no
way of knowing whether or not Erica had suggested to
Doe that she called me, or if Doe had suggested
to Erica that she called me, But through much of
(26:57):
that conversation, Erica was weeping. She was emotionally upset that
I had left. And because Erica wasn't in San Diego
when I left, we drove to San Diego in three shifts,
and eric was back in Phoenix cleaning the house and
(27:18):
getting it ready to relinquish to the renters. So I
left without saying goodbye to her. I'm sure that was
tough for her. But one thing I said to her
was I need to stay out here for a while.
I need to follow this gut knowing, and I feel
like it would be really helpful if you spent time
(27:41):
outside the colt as well. I didn't call it a
call outside the group. She didn't say anything, and I
don't know if she would have wanted to say anything,
but she would have known that that would have been
heard by the person on the other line, right. But
the conversation lasted about three minutes and that was it.
(28:01):
We said goodbye. Wow. That was the last time I
spoke with her. Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Well, I'm just so sorry that you lost so many
people that you love. Must have been really hard.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Can we talk about that? Yeah? I want to talk
about it on two different levels, yes, please. One is
it's the level of heartbreak, you know, the human experience
of loss. I experienced that in a real way, and
I didn't expect now to get emotional about it, but
(28:38):
obviously it still impacts me. But the other thing that
I realize is, and I'm not expecting others to buy
into this, but my view of life is that we
do live succeeding lives. Reincarnation is a real thing. In
(28:59):
between incarnations. There's what's called this pre birth planning, in
which I and my sole group map out what I
want to experience in my life and who will play
different parts in that lifetime and what part I will
play in my lifetime in others lives. There's a working
(29:24):
together to determine how we will experience the lessons we
want to learn at the sole level during that life.
So with that as background, if that is a real thing,
if that pre birth planning is a real thing, I
and every member of the Heaven's Gate Cult planned their
(29:47):
participation in the cult, including the option to leave or
to stay to the end and take their lives in suicide,
because of the lessons that they wanted to learn, and
it extends even to their family members experiencing the loss
of them the lessons they wanted to learn at the
(30:09):
soul level through that loss.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
What do you think your lesson was?
Speaker 3 (30:15):
One of my biggest lessons through all of this is
to trust my inner knowing above everything else. Follow that
knowing no matter what anything outside is telling me, in
the face of any onslaught of conditioning or peer pressure
or societal norms, follow what I know. It's like the
(30:40):
God connection within me. It's not my mind, it's my
heart and my gut knowing. You know that our heart
has a much larger energy field than our brain, and
our heart has lures the heart poetically time after their
(31:00):
poems that talk about the knowing of the heart, and
it's true, the heart has tremendous knowledge. Their hearts are
connected to every other heart. That's how we are all
one us through our heart.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, I think that that's a beautiful lesson me too.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Who what a story?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I mean, how are you doing? Now? How's your life?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Well? My life is perfectly imperfect. I started van life
in August of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Do you live in the van? Are you traveling around?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
What's your setup like?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Well, it's not a big van, but it's got everything
I need. I have a seven gallon freshwater tank and
a seven gallon greywater tank and a submersible pump, so
I have running water, running cold water. My mother's gift
to me through her passing in twenty eighteen. What's this van?
(32:01):
Through her inheritance, I could buy this ban So, thank
you mother.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
So now you get to be adventurous and do whatever
you want and follow your heart exactly. That's awesome. Well, man,
I can't thank you enough for talking to us. This
has been really just wonderful.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Tuly, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Is there anything you'd like to say or mention or
shout out.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Well, I have mentioned to many people that I was
writing a book. I started the book in twenty fifteen,
and the book has kind of languished over the last
several months.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, we're all languishing over the last several months, let's
be honest.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
But I would like to get it out and get
it published. I have a publisher that I really like
lined up. I just need to get it done. It's
about halfway done. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Writing is a challenge. I really feel you there by day,
bird by bird?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
What's that a Lamont book? Bird by bird?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Just sentenced by sentence?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, just as much as you can handle every day.
But I have faith in you, and I absolutely want
to buy your book, So you have to finish it.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah, I got to get it at the door and
my purpose he agrees. I just need to get the
freaking thing out of the door.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
So that's how I feel about my script. Awesome. Well,
do you have any social media?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, I'm on Facebook. You can just search for my
name Frank leiferd Lyford. I'm on Instagram. I have a website.
It's called Facilitating You LETTERU dot com.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, thanks again so much, Frank, you welcome.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I've enjoyed talking to you both.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I really will never get over the openness and vulnerability
with which Frank is able to speak about the story
that happened to him. So once again, thank you to
Frank for being our guest. Everybody in Los Angeles, stay
safe out there. Our hearts are with you and we
will see you well here next week. Remember to follow
your gut look out for red flags. I never ever
(34:06):
trust by.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trust me.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Trust Me.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm like a swat person I've never lived to you never.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Live if you think that one person has all the answers.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two former cult members who've actually
experienced it. I'm Megan Elizabeth Lola isn't here for the
intro today, but she's part of this incredible interview, So
let's jump into part two with former Heaven's Gate member
Frank Lloyd. We'll discuss the growing number of red flags
(00:52):
Frank began to notice after one of the leaders died,
including talk of castration and what led to his decision
to finally, after eighteen years, breakaway. Also, he shares the
heartbreaking story of how he first heard about the mass
suicide on the news. The Lessons he's learned as a
result and what his life is like now. Our heart
really goes out to anybody affected by the Los Angeles fires.
(01:13):
So Lola and I are fine, We are safe, but yeah,
just a lot of grief and stuff too move through.
So thank you everybody who reached out. And without further ado,
let's speak to Frank.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So we left off last week with Frank telling us
about how he had been in the group for a
long time at this point and Tea one of the
two leaders. It was Tea and Doe, and Tea was
the woman and Doe was the man who you've probably
seen in the videos that they made. Tea died of
cancer and this was totally against their plans. They were
going to be taken up into space while they were
still alive. So things started really changing with Doe. He
(01:54):
started getting more controlling, he started getting more obsessive, and
basically he started talking about suicide. So that's where we
left off last week, and we'll catch up with him
now he's passing.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
In that way had a huge impact on doees thinking
about how the graduation would occur, and that worked on
him over the coming months and years to the point
where he began to entertain ideas of how we might
do our vehicles in which was entirely diametrically posed to
(02:25):
the way it was originally presented.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
How was it originally presented?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
We will be taken up in a craft while we're conscious,
we will ascend while conscious and alive.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
But now t has died, so there must he's got
to find a way to reshape the narrative.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Right, And as Sawyer mentioned, he talked about how he
came across a book about how to take one's life
and he was shocked. Yeah, he found it cleaning up
those quarters one time, and that queued him into the
fact that Doe was considering how we might leave by
taking your lives. That happened shortly after Tea passed on.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
What did you think about that?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
It was a huge red flag for me, but I
suppressed it. I couldn't bring it up. I couldn't talk
to anybody about it because it would have been at
least I thought it would have been seen as doubting
my older member. But there were other red legs like that.
I mean one thing. In April of nineteen ninety three,
(03:31):
a branch Davidiant caught fire in Waco, Texas, and that
made a huge impression on Dough. That got him thinking
about how maybe we should learn to fire firearms and
that would stimulate our own demise. And you know, that
was a huge red leg for me, like, oh yeah,
(03:53):
like that's gonna work really well, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
As In, like, if you had guns, a standoff with
the police would happen and they would kill you, right right.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
But not necessarily a standoff. Simply the fact that we
had guns would cause an altercation that would end up
taking our lives. But I think they decided that would
be too messy. This was after I left. They decided
not to do that. But Waco happened in April of
ninety three and I left in August.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
What can you talk to us about the time when
you and Erica both go back to Calgary and visit
your families.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think that's after Tea's passing, probably like around September
eighty five, since both their families were in Calgary, Dough
decided we could be each other's check partners.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Why were you allowed to go home?
Speaker 3 (04:47):
This was the second visit I believe, back to visit
our families, And the reason that that came up was
because a mother of one of the members had been
in com Intact had somehow been making contacts with different
X members and gathering information about us, you know, trying
(05:10):
to locate her son. She was also making contact with
other members who are still in the group their families.
She started putting out a newsletter every month or two Goodness,
and they would all receive news and updates through this network.
My parents were in the network, and Erica's parents were
(05:32):
in the network. So the visits to families were designed
to allay our family's fears about what we were doing,
that we weren't in danger, and you know, we weren't
up to no good and we were healthy and happy,
and that was what it was designed to do. So
one visit was before Tea passed on, and the other
(05:55):
visit was afterwards. So we were going to travel together.
Traveled back to Calgary and we had a layover in
Salt Lake City, so we were sitting in the secluded
area of the airport. There was not much activity, and
I felt this overwhelming feeling of love for Erica that
(06:21):
I hadn't allowed myself to feel even though we lived
in the same house. I would always suppress bit in
the routines of everyday life. Plus being surrounded by other
group members, of their class members, was like any feeling
(06:43):
like that got drowned out amongst the vibrational, energetic chatter
of our everyday life. So being alone with her, none
of those intervening influences had a chance to suppress that.
(07:03):
So I reached over and I gave her a hug.
And I think they may have misquoted me or something.
I've done several documentaries. But what happened was she quickly
said as I hugged her that she had asked though
if she could hug me, and he had said yes.
(07:26):
I never had the foresight to ask hug her, and
I never thought that I would never considered it. But
I mean that to me illustrates the level of conditioning
of the group that Erica would have the foresight to
ask if it was okay to give me.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
A hug, just to have a hug. Yeah. Wow, What
did it feel like that hug?
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, it was it was like the flood of everything
that I had suppressed towards her came rushing up and
it was intense. This was in my mind, but I
didn't have the courage to express it. But if she
(08:16):
had said to me, let's stop doing this, less runaway,
let's not do this anymore, I would have said, definitely, yes,
I agree, Les, let's quit it. It's silly. But I
was of two minds. I had the conditioning of the group,
(08:36):
so did she, So I didn't let myself express that.
I didn't think she would be amenable to it anyway.
She probably wouldn't have been.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, what a moment. Yeah, gosh, that's still in the eighties, right.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I think this was eighty five eight.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
More years you were in You told a story in
the documentary of insulting your masculinity that have been.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Shortly after Tea passed on. The goal was always to
let go of our masculinity, let go of our femininity,
to be in the middle, to be androgynous, because members
of the kingdom level of human are androgenous. They have
no sexuality, they have no mammalian behavior. So this particular
(09:28):
morning we were meeting in the morning, I was at
the front. Everyone was seated in semicircles around him, and
I raised my hand to ask a question or maybe
to in our reservation. I don't remember what it was,
but I spoke up, and it was shortly after we
had gotten up, so my voice was a little bit husky,
(09:51):
It had a morning huskiness to it. And those response
was not to reply to me, but to mimic my
voice in a what's the word like mocking or well
I was mocking, but in a way to emphasize the
deepness of the voice to convey a point to me.
(10:16):
And my response was to feel extremely humiliated, yeah, and
feel this smoldering resentment and anger within me that I
couldn't express because to do so it would have been
to question him, to disrespect him as our teacher, as
(10:37):
our leader. So I had this tremendous internal conflict going
on that I couldn't express in any way. You know,
if I were to have had a free feeling, like
I could have free expression of what I was feeling
and thinking, I would have. Oh, I would have used
some explicits. Probably how the f dare you put me down?
(10:59):
And this way? You know, you say you're a leader,
you put yourself up there from the class as a teacher,
as somebody having wisdom that you're trying to impart to us,
and yet you do this behavior of mocking and putting down.
(11:20):
But I couldn't. I couldn't say that, so I stuffed
that emotion. My understanding of that now is that when
we suppress our emotion, when we stuff away emotion that's unprocessed,
it ends up residing energetically in our bodies. It resides
(11:40):
energetically in our cellular structure and in our oric field,
and it can eventually turn into disease if we don't
allow it to express and we don't allow ourselves to
process it anyway. That's a tangent. But over the course
of the next few weeks, I gradually developed a stutter
(12:04):
and inability to really speak clearly and fluently. Was as
if this energetic suppression was itself being expressed as the
inability to express my own thoughts freely. And I still
(12:25):
have the residual of that. I haven't freed myself from
it completely, much better than I have been. But that's
another illustration of the dynamic of cult leader over cult member.
Wow to me, looking back, the result of Tea's passing
had a detrimental effect on Dough. He became more controlling,
(12:50):
He became more ocd, probably out of insecurity of being
left with guiding the class on his own regardless, That's
what I saw, what I experienced. The episode of him
making fun of my voice to me was an example
(13:11):
of that stepping back for a second looking at it
as a life coach, because I'm a life coach right now,
and as a life coach without compassion, it would be
a terrible life coach. Without empathy, I would be a
terrible life coach. Without active intuition, it would be a
(13:31):
terrible life coach. And to me, in the exchange that
we had that day with Oh, he lacked intuitive awareness,
he lacked empathy, he lacked compassion.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Can you tell us about the final straw?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Well, I mentioned there were some red legs coming up
along the way toward the end was the idea of
learning to fire firearms. There's another one as well. They
were first beginning to talk about in nineteen ninety three,
and that was the idea of getting castrated. The men
(14:16):
getting castrated right because of the sexual impulses that they
wanted to lessen. They thought that would help. And that
was a red flag to me.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, were you still in the group when they began
or no?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Well, apparently I was, but I didn't know because they
didn't tell us that was when the first.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
One took place, and that was there was only one correct.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
No, there was one, and then ultimately I think there
were six or seven. Wow, man who had castrations.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
There was one guy who went first, what was his name,
cerroty Previdy.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That was really sad. I know, it broke my heart,
and then the other people following, and actually Doe was
also frustrated, right correct, Yeah, wow, so so heartbreaking. You're
like every little piece of identity is just stripped away
from all of you, just every single possible thing right
down to your sex. I mean, gosh, it's a miracle
(15:17):
that you were able to break away.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
That last year that I was in the group I worked.
I mentioned I worked for Microsoft, and that got me
interested in software. I started out as a receptionist, but
I learned to use Microsoft Excel. That was their brand
new spreadsheet program that Microsoft came out with. So I
(15:41):
worked for Microsoft for two years in the Dallas sales office.
My boss, who is the regional sales manager for the
Southern Region, was being promoted to national sales manager for Microsoft,
and he had asked me to go with him as
his assistant. Of course, I couldn't. I was in the.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Culton that I'll do it.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
But here's the thing. If I had gone, they were
offering stock options at that point, so I would have
been a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Oh Frank, don't break my heart. Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So anyway back to the year before I left. The
year before that year, I worked for this fellow in
Phoenix who was this software business owner, and he hired
me to kind of help get his head above water,
I found out later because he was drowning. His customers
were not pleased, so he wanted to hire me to
(16:43):
help get things back on track with his customers. He
was a terrible, terrible customer service. So I worked for
him for a year until I had enough and it
was time for me to get ato the job. Doe said, yeah,
go ahead, good, done the job. So I did. I
got another job with one of his competitors, that fellow
who's terrible customer service. I got a job with the
(17:06):
woman who was also in the same business and had
been getting a lot of his customers, and now she
got one of his developers. She was a really good
boss to work for. So think of this juxtaposition. Now
I work for this woman, I was her first full
time employee. She treated me really, really well. We designed
(17:30):
software together. She gave me full rein on how I
wrote the software. When we had happy customers, which was
virtually all the time, she gave me full credit for
those happy customers. So I was treated really well. And
you know, my creative uses could flow in this software business,
(17:52):
whereas going back to the class at night on the weekends,
there's no uniqueness, no creativity allowed. You totally line you
follow procedures. You know, Doe's view of perfection was the
Star Trek civilization known as the Borg. I know, if
you watched Star Trek, you will be assimilated and resistance
(18:16):
is feudal and you're part of the machine and you're
a cog in the wheel. So working for this woman
made life bearable, right even though I suppressed the fact
that it wasn't bearable, The fact that I needed that,
you know, the fact that that made it bearable should
(18:36):
have been a blaring message to me, but it wasn't.
So then at the end of August it was time
to move again. We would move every year or two,
so we were moving to San Diego. So I thought, okay,
no big deal. I've quit my job plenty of times before.
We just go to the new place and get a
new job, no big deal. On the drive between Phoenix
(19:00):
San Diego, I started having this feeling in the pit
of my stomach. I just can't be here anymore. I
didn't intellectually understand that it was just this gnawing feeling
that I couldn't ignore, you know. So I had a
check partner with me in the car, and I talked
(19:21):
to her about this, and she suggested that I speak
with Doe when we got to San Diego. So I did,
and he said, okay, we I'll sleep on it and
I'll talk to you in the morning. I slept on
it still felt the same way in the morning, and
then he said, okay, well, let's have an eating A
(19:42):
little while later, they called me upstairs to Doe's quarters
and there were four other classmates there with Doe. Four
of his trusted helpers, of which Sawyer was one. Sir Odie,
who had the first castration, was in and then Live
Odie and Jane Odi, who were the two who helped
(20:05):
Doe with tea before she passed on, and they were
there kind of as a buffer like I was at
one end of a work table, and I was at
the other and the other four were on the long
end as a buffer between Doe and me. It was
kind of like an intervention to talk some sense into me.
He took a couple of different approaches. First, he said, well,
(20:28):
you haven't done anything to make me displeased with your
behavior or anything. You're a good student. There's no reason
for you to leave. And I just kept turning to
this gut knowing I couldn't ignore, or I knew I
had to follow it no matter where it took me
at and even the gut knowing went against my mental
(20:49):
conditioning h but I had no choice but to follow this.
So Dough changed his approach a little bit, bringing up
the thought that, well, you know that the world will
be plowed under when we leave, and you know you
will lose your life along with all of the others
as the civilization is plowed under. They thought of the
(21:12):
earth as a garden for souls, and periodically the garden
gets plowed under with each new season. So that was
the analogy. And because this crop of souls had resulted
in so few coming into this classroom circumstance with ten
do the crop was bad. So that meant the crop
(21:35):
had to be plowed under. The civilization had to be
plowed under through earth changes like earthquakes or the switch
of the Earth's sacks, this resulting in huge earth changes.
That's what they thought. And it didn't matter to me
what he said, whatever he said, I just kept returning
to this gut knowing said up, sorry, no matter where
(21:57):
this leads me, even though I'm plowed under whatever, I
have to follow this gut knowing. So he said, okay, well,
we'll get you a double bag packed up, and we'll
give you one thousand bucks, and you can get a
bus ticket or a plane ticket wherever you want to go,
and we'll take you. And that'll be that. It's not
(22:19):
like they wanted me there against my will, because that
would have been disruptive to everyone else's focus.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Wow, that's actually very surprising. I feel like generally the
stories are, you know, kind of trying to bully people
into staying right. In nineteen ninety seven, the remaining members
of Heaven's Gate have their exit planned. They believe that
(22:50):
there's a flying saucer hiding behind the Hailbop comet, and
they believe they're going to teleport to it. So thirty
nine people commit suicide together and Rancho Santa Fe, California
by taking apple sauce or putting the lace with the
deadly drug. And it's, you know, just such a tragedy.
How did you find out and how did you feel?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well? I was living in white Rock, British Columbia, which
is right by the border, and I was working in Bellingham, Washington,
So I lived in Canada, worked in the US, and
I was coming home from work at night and I
heard a radio report on the news as I was
(23:39):
driving home. It said that a group of all male
monks had been found in San Diego to have committed suicide.
You know, it was a breaking story at that point,
and I knew it was. Chills ran up and down
(24:06):
my spy and I knew it was then. And then
the story developed over the next few days and came
out that day. The police thought that they were all
male because they all have the same haircut. I appeared
(24:27):
on the Larry King Live TV program news program. This
was April first, so it was my April for Fools joke.
I was on, Sawyer was on, and another fellow who
was an ex member who had left before I had left.
Was also on all three of us were ex members.
(24:48):
They flew me from Bellingham to Seattle for the satellite uplink,
so there was a clip in the HBO documentary of
me with the long hair, and that was from Larry
King Live. So from that the local newspapers started calling me.
My phone didn't stop ringing. I didn't want to give
(25:09):
any local interviews. I was heartbroken, and yet even at
that point, after having been out of the group for
three and a half years, I felt like they had
the right to live their life as they wanted, and
they had the right to take their lives as they
(25:29):
saw a fit. I wrote a letter to all of
my coworkers in the company where I worked because they
I was aware several people had seen the Larry King
Live episode, so I wanted to stem the tide of
the rumor mill and just let people know what was
going on it. I lost many, many friends who I
(25:54):
shared a great deal with, not just my cousin, not
just my ex girlfriend. That I was heartbroken, I can imagine.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, and your last conversation with Erica was when you.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Were leaving, right It was two days after I left,
So she had called me at my parents. I was
staying with my parents in Calgary because that's where I
went when I left the group. And you know, I
knew she would have had somebody else on the line,
a check partner on the other extension while she was
talking to me. But she implored me to come back
(26:37):
to the group, repeating some of the things that Doe
had said of you know, there's no reason for you
to be out there. You belong here. I have no
way of knowing whether or not Erica had suggested to
Doe that she called me, or if Doe had suggested
to Erica that she called me, But through much of
(26:57):
that conversation, Erica was weeping. She was emotionally upset that
I had left. And because Erica wasn't in San Diego
when I left, we drove to San Diego in three shifts,
and eric was back in Phoenix cleaning the house and
(27:18):
getting it ready to relinquish to the renters. So I
left without saying goodbye to her. I'm sure that was
tough for her. But one thing I said to her
was I need to stay out here for a while.
I need to follow this gut knowing, and I feel
like it would be really helpful if you spent time
(27:41):
outside the colt as well. I didn't call it a
call outside the group. She didn't say anything, and I
don't know if she would have wanted to say anything,
but she would have known that that would have been
heard by the person on the other line, right. But
the conversation lasted about three minutes and that was it.
(28:01):
We said goodbye. Wow. That was the last time I
spoke with her. Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Well, I'm just so sorry that you lost so many
people that you love. Must have been really hard.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Can we talk about that? Yeah? I want to talk
about it on two different levels, yes, please. One is
it's the level of heartbreak, you know, the human experience
of loss. I experienced that in a real way, and
I didn't expect now to get emotional about it, but
(28:38):
obviously it still impacts me. But the other thing that
I realize is, and I'm not expecting others to buy
into this, but my view of life is that we
do live succeeding lives. Reincarnation is a real thing. In
(28:59):
between incarnations. There's what's called this pre birth planning, in
which I and my sole group map out what I
want to experience in my life and who will play
different parts in that lifetime and what part I will
play in my lifetime in others lives. There's a working
(29:24):
together to determine how we will experience the lessons we
want to learn at the sole level during that life.
So with that as background, if that is a real thing,
if that pre birth planning is a real thing, I
and every member of the Heaven's Gate Cult planned their
(29:47):
participation in the cult, including the option to leave or
to stay to the end and take their lives in suicide,
because of the lessons that they wanted to learn, and
it extends even to their family members experiencing the loss
of them the lessons they wanted to learn at the
(30:09):
soul level through that loss.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
What do you think your lesson was?
Speaker 3 (30:15):
One of my biggest lessons through all of this is
to trust my inner knowing above everything else. Follow that
knowing no matter what anything outside is telling me, in
the face of any onslaught of conditioning or peer pressure
or societal norms, follow what I know. It's like the
(30:40):
God connection within me. It's not my mind, it's my
heart and my gut knowing. You know that our heart
has a much larger energy field than our brain, and
our heart has lures the heart poetically time after their
(31:00):
poems that talk about the knowing of the heart, and
it's true, the heart has tremendous knowledge. Their hearts are
connected to every other heart. That's how we are all
one us through our heart.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, I think that that's a beautiful lesson me too.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Who what a story?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I mean, how are you doing? Now? How's your life?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Well? My life is perfectly imperfect. I started van life
in August of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Do you live in the van? Are you traveling around?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
What's your setup like?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Well, it's not a big van, but it's got everything
I need. I have a seven gallon freshwater tank and
a seven gallon greywater tank and a submersible pump, so
I have running water, running cold water. My mother's gift
to me through her passing in twenty eighteen. What's this van?
(32:01):
Through her inheritance, I could buy this ban So, thank
you mother.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
So now you get to be adventurous and do whatever
you want and follow your heart exactly. That's awesome. Well, man,
I can't thank you enough for talking to us. This
has been really just wonderful.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Tuly, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Is there anything you'd like to say or mention or
shout out.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Well, I have mentioned to many people that I was
writing a book. I started the book in twenty fifteen,
and the book has kind of languished over the last
several months.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, we're all languishing over the last several months, let's
be honest.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
But I would like to get it out and get
it published. I have a publisher that I really like
lined up. I just need to get it done. It's
about halfway done. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Writing is a challenge. I really feel you there by day,
bird by bird?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
What's that a Lamont book? Bird by bird?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Just sentenced by sentence?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, just as much as you can handle every day.
But I have faith in you, and I absolutely want
to buy your book, So you have to finish it.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah, I got to get it at the door and
my purpose he agrees. I just need to get the
freaking thing out of the door.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
So that's how I feel about my script. Awesome. Well,
do you have any social media?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, I'm on Facebook. You can just search for my
name Frank leiferd Lyford. I'm on Instagram. I have a website.
It's called Facilitating You LETTERU dot com.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Well, thanks again so much, Frank, you welcome.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I've enjoyed talking to you both.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I really will never get over the openness and vulnerability
with which Frank is able to speak about the story
that happened to him. So once again, thank you to
Frank for being our guest. Everybody in Los Angeles, stay
safe out there. Our hearts are with you and we
will see you well here next week. Remember to follow
your gut look out for red flags. I never ever
(34:06):
trust by.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word
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