Sarma Melngailis - Part 1: Bad Vegan, Meeting Mr. Fox, and Early Red Flags

In part 1 with guest Sarma Melngailis, subject of the docuseries Bad Vegan and author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, Sarma shares about her life as the owner of a successful vegan restaurant in New York, how she met the man who called himself Mr. Fox on Twitter when he seemed to know her friend Alec Baldwin, her first impressions of Mr. Fox, and some of the initial red flags she missed.
They discuss the way he slowly wormed his way into her life, how he first started asking for money in a way that seemed innocuous at first, and some of the many manipulation tactics he used to coerce her into transferring an astronomical amount of money to him--and ultimately blowing up her life.

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The Girl With the Duck Tattoo

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me? Do you trust me?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Right? Ever lead you astray? Trust? This is the truth,
the only truth.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me.

Speaker 4 (00:15):
The podcast with occults extreme belief and manipulation from two
lucky ducks who've actually experienced that. I'm Lo La Blanc
and I'm Megan Elizabeth and today is Part one with
our guest, Sarma melangilis author of The Girl with the
Duck Tattoo, whom you may know from the docuseries Bad Vegan.
In Part one, today, we're going to talk about her

(00:35):
life as the owner of a successful vegan restaurant in
New York. How she met the man who called himself
mister Fox on Twitter when he seemed to know her friend,
Alec Baldwin, her first impressions of him in real life,
and some of the initial red flags that she missed.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Will get into the way he slowly integrated himself into
her life. How he first started asking for money in
a way that at first seemed innocuous, and some of
the many manipulations and tactics he used to course her
into transferring an astronomical amount of money to him and
began ripping her perfectly curated life to shreds.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
And we will continue in part two next week.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
We sure will. What a book, Holy.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Molly, what a what a like fascinating and challenging read. Yeah,
just to see that the text exchange or the g
chat exchanges between them.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, challenging and like a way that makes you want
to keep reading.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
Yeah, it's like I was like transfixed and also just.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Like so upset. It's very upsetting. You have to get
a guys, Yeah, it's really good before we jump in
with Sarma Megan, I just you know, would love to
know what your culdiest thing of a week is. Okay, sure, great.
So I'm watching the Diddy sentencing unfold and it's a
very disappointing amount of time that he's being given. It
looks like it's four years and four years is not nagging.

(02:01):
And you know a lot of people gave testimonies against
him and there's just still at the Sarma interview, it
just brings to light how little we still know about
course of control and how little the court system takes
it into account. And I mean, if you just read
some of these exchanges that his defense used that are

(02:23):
like that Cassie said, I love you, you know, after
he did this thing in I'm going to freak out,
like you can't wrap your mind around it. So one
hundred and twenty people have accused him of things. I
know multiple people, including Cassie, testified in court. I know
that some are men, but we don't have the system

(02:44):
yet to fully understand this kind of person, who I
believe is very much like the person Sarma encountered, and
the kind of destruction that they can cause.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
So yeah, we just don't understand the psychology of what
happens in the mind of somebody who is being abused,
except to that extent, like the victim blaming is crazy,
It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
What's your cultiest thing of the week?

Speaker 4 (03:12):
Just dark Just the leader of our country. Oh, just
the leader of our country, that's all I mean. This
is going to come out, you know, a way after
any of.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
This podcast episode.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yes, yes, way after any of this happened. So it's
not like it's necessarily the most timely thing in the world.
But like that speech he gave about how America is
under invasion from within, We're under invasion from within. This
is the quote no different than a foreign enemy, but
more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms.
I mean, that's just like trying to turn Americans against

(03:46):
other Americans and demonizing people in such a con what
is the word that I want bullshit way as a
justification for sending ice in the National Guard and the
military to like try to turn are violent forces against
the citizens of America.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's just crazy.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
It's so crazy. On top of the fact that like
there are people in the government wearing like little gold
pins of his head.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
I'm sorry, it's giving maw. Yeah, it's giving cultural revolution,
it's giving icon worship, you know. And then on top
of all, they're just like removing pages from government websites
that had information on them because they don't align with
how he would like to present the government.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
It's so crazy. Yeah, it's quite a time to be alive.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
It's such a time to be alive. It's like, I
don't want to talk about it too much because I
don't want to like over trumpify things, but like every
day I'm like what, yeah, And so this is one
of those days where I'm like, there's just such an
onslaught of like black and white thinking, demonization, like my

(04:57):
point of view is the only valid one. Do not question,
and do not look to other sources, ignore history, ignore science,
Like there's just so much of that going on that
it's wild. And people in other countries are very worried
for us, by the way, Like, yeah, everyone I talked
to in Europe, I was like, are you okay?

Speaker 1 (05:14):
It's very bad.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
So that's me okay, cool, Well, everything's crazy. Shall we
delve into something also crazy and crazy?

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Welcome Sarma melangileiss to trust me. Thank you so much
for being in with us. We are so stoked. Thank
you for having me. I'm excited to be here. First
of all, I have to shout out the similarities between
you and my mom's stories.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
So I listened to your mom's story earlier today.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Really yeah. And the weird thing is, as I was
listening to it, I was like, something about her sounds
really famil. And then it all clicked and I realized
that Stephen Hawson once put us in touch, like a
few years ago. Oh my god. And I think it
was at a time when I was I mean, as you,
you know, on the other side of these things, you're
kind of can be very overwhelmed and bombarded by stuff,

(06:15):
and somehow I don't think we were ever really connected
other than maybe through email real quick, but I remember
that we put us in touch. And yeah, listening to
your mom's story was heartbreaking and there was a lot
that resonated. But man, that's a heartbreaking story, fully shit.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
I mean, I've been reading your book for the past
two days. I've been calling my mom every few hours
and being like, oh, you have to read this part.
So anyway, that's a side note. I hope you guys connect.
But let's start at the beginning of your story. First
of all, I love how you We both we talked
about this before. We love how you really established like
how amazing your life was and all of these things

(06:55):
that you did before meeting this man. Like, there's always
this misconception that this kind of thing happened to people
who you know, aren't doing these amazing things in their lives.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
You're like a perfect example of somebody who is really smart,
and you have all the accolades to prove it, you know,
So we just want to maybe start there. Yourself lay
the ground.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Juice, That's what my stepdad says.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
But it's like she does make juice joice. Yeah. Okay,
So yeah, where do we even begin with all your
accomplished Well, can you tell us about your Wall Street era?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, well, on the other side of college, I ended
up doing the Wall Street thing. So, you know, I
worked in an investment bank, and then I worked in
private equity, being capital and you know, I had these
great jobs that were very prestigious, and you know, if
I stayed in them, I would have earned boatloads of money.
But I wasn't. I wasn't passionate about that whole world

(07:51):
of Wall Street, and I just never felt like I
really had anything in common with people in that world.
And so I ended up leaving and going to culinary school.
And then I ended up in the restaurant business. And
I'm not sure how far in my book you got,
but I talk about a relationship I was in. This
is the man with whom I first opened Pure Food Wine,
which is the restaurant which I was known and that

(08:11):
was my life's purpose in that business. And then the
other brand that I started one look you, Doug. But
the guy that I originally opened the restaurant with, I
call him my first time at the at the rodeo. Yeah,
I avoid using certain words because I don't it's kind
of inflammatory to use certain labels, but yeah, he was
my first time with that type of a person who

(08:34):
lacks empathy and is exploitative and manipulative and ends up
draining you of your funds and try to to that
you're the crazy one.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, exactly, And so much of the story does involve
funds and money and stuff, and I think it's just
important to put up front. You were married to a
very wealthy man for a year and a half and
had the whole world at your fingertips, you know, you
had the Hampton's, the what and it just money isn't
really what seems to be one of your main needs

(09:04):
of like what it takes to make you feel whole,
and you kind of were like, I want to pursue
my passions.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah. I mean it's complicated because as you're saying that,
I'm going, oh my god, I really want it right now.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Needing money and loving money, I guess are different.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, exactly when you need it for like basic safety
and not. It's very different from what I never had
any interest in whatsoever. Was this sort of extravagant spending
and you know sort of people who buy handbags and
expensive shoes and all of that. For me, money was
always a tool to you know, build my business and

(09:44):
do it independently. But yeah, I was married for a
while to a guy who was you know, he was
a good person, and you know, I got divorced after
a year and a half. But I could have had
that life where I would have been financially set for
the rest.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Of time, and even on your own you were making
great money in finance.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, I had made a bunch of money before in
finance and at bank Capital, we you can co invest
while you're there, and I had knowing that those deals
were turn very often huge numbers. I was putting co
investments on credit cards and whatnot. But I co invested
a lot and a lot of that money did come
back over time, but it all went into this guy,

(10:25):
Matthew's businesses and got sucked up that way by him.
So yeah, I had this unfortunate repeating pattern of allowing
dudes into my life to then you know, gaining a
bunch of my resources.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
You got to talk to my mom because it was
the same.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
It was the same with her, So tell us about
pure food and wine, because the way you describe it,
it sounds like such a beautiful place.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
I want to go there.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
I want to want to be cozy and like go
be surrounded by the food and the love. Like can
you talk about what this meant to you and what
this was?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
The restaurant was really really really special, beautiful and as
I you know, where I sit, I'm located very close
to it because I actually moved back here to reopen
in the same space. I don't know if it's going
to happen. A lot of things happened, and I've been
kind of put through the ringer again a bit or
a lot. But it was a really really special restaurant,

(11:18):
and I think if I could give myself, I could
like pat myself on the back and give myself credit,
it would be in populating it with the right people
and cultivating an atmosphere where really good people like to
work there. They felt good working there. You know, it
sounds cliche to say that we were like a family
because a lot of restaurants say that, but we really

(11:39):
really were. And I think that people who came there
could feel that energy, and so we had tons of regulars.
I mean, it was a it was a raw vegan restaurant.
That makes it sound really unappeeling, but our food was
incredibly good, and every day people would come in and
they were completely shocked by what they were eating and
loved it. And we had tons and tons of regulars

(12:00):
who were not remotely vegan or raw, and probably on
any given night, more than half the people there would
not call themselves vegan. It just had such a good
atmosphere and such a good buzz, and the environment was
really warm and cozy and kind of sexy, and there's
a lot of dark wood and red and we had
a really great cocktail list that we made, the amazing

(12:22):
cocktails was sucky and it was just a beautiful, beautiful place.
And then I had started a brand called One Lucky Duck,
which was like the more accessible side of it that
you know. For many years we had products in thirty
whole food stores and we made these really good packaged
cookies and snacks and they're really good for kids and
good for everybody. And the juice bar and the takeaway,

(12:43):
which is a more easily expandable side of the business,
was all branded One Lucky Duck. So I was very
poised to expand in a big, big way.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
And I remember seeing this like I was one of
those girls who was on you know TMZ. I'm sorry
I was. There were just like on some of the
the reading the stupid shit, and I remember seeing your
brand sometimes like on celebrities. It was kind of like
a hot you know, it was a hot spot.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
And yeah, you talk about how many celebrities were in
there all the time. It's like constantly being mentioned in
the magazines.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
There, you know, it's it's a thing.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, I mean that part of it was fun. That
was just like an extra layer of fun is that
I have endless stories, and I didn't put a whole
lot of them. I put hardly any of it in
the book. I had some in my original draft, but
you know, my book is quite lengthy and I had
to make it digestible, so I took a lot of
that out. But I really want to write a follow

(13:40):
up book where there's a lot of fun stories I
could include, just like the most random stories about different
celebrities that were there that just made it. That was
like an extra layer that made it really fun.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
That's all to say. You were doing really well.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yes, But that being said, you know, I realize now,
and I mean I realized it then, but I was
I was very overwhelmed and exhausted and overworked and really
wanted to expand the business but had never found the
white partner. And I think at home, I think I
was quietly depressed, so that when I got home and
then what happened is, you know, I had been in

(14:14):
this beautiful relationship for four years that and we lit
up and I was alone and it was just me
and my dog. And that's what was part of what
made it a good time for some a predator to
come in and take over.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah, that's an important pause right there, because it is
we always say breakups, deaths, big life changing life changes.
You're just a sitting duck, one might say, for it.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
Oh no, are we going to do that the whole
episode Juice a sitting duck.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
No we're not. It's just it was like the perfect
combination of life events to make you very innrouble.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, and being being already overwhelmed and tired and sort
of exhausted and heartbroken. Yeah, he got me at the
right time.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Tell us about how you first encountered mister Fox.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
It was on what was called Twitter and I'll continue
calling it Twitter. And I had had speaking of celebrities,
I'd had a sort of a friendship relationship situation with
Alec Baldwin and he was late to Twitter, and I
guess he must have joined. And then somehow mister Fox

(15:41):
was very active on Twitter, and for whatever reason from
my perspective, Alec had just joined Twitter. So we followed
each other and there was some winning banter back and
forth between him and this guy who I just sort
of assumed that Alec must have somehow known him because
he followed him on Twitter, and I ended up in
a back and forth with that guy and joining into

(16:03):
the conversation, and then, you know, like that's how it started,
That's how we got to know each other. And then
and then it moved to DMS. So from the start,
that was a way in which part of my guard
wasn't there or was taken down, because there was this
perceived or legitimacy that I somehow just assumed that he
and Alec knew each other somehow.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
How did Alec and him even find each other? Did
Alec ever tell you that.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
I've only spoken to Alec once on the other side
of all this, and I didn't get to ask him
about that, but I mean, my guess is that because
he had just joined Twitter, and obviously when a famous
person joins any social media there following just go like
shoots up really fast. I think this guy, mister Fox,
just got lucky and followed Alec immediately and started engaging

(16:52):
with him, and he was he could be really funny,
which is annoying. It pisces me off that he could
be really funny and witty, and so Alec must have
just followed him back and then they continue shotting.

Speaker 4 (17:04):
In the heyday of Twitter, you did just follow people
because they were funny. A lot of people got Twitter
famous just for being funny.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
This is not unusual, yes, And might I add that
I feel like a lot of the basis of that
was Alec and also his uncanny ability to be good
at Words with Friends. I feel like Words with Friends
is a huge part of this story because he had
some unusual genius at playing this game, and once you

(17:32):
start reading the text later on and like grammar is
weird and stuff, You're like, how was he so good
at knowing words? It's was he cheating? Do we think
he was cheating? I don't think he was. Do we
think he was cheating?

Speaker 2 (17:41):
No, I know, I mean I thought that in the
beginning too. So what happened was, you know, I would
I communicated with mister Fox and DMS, and then I
think somehow we knew that we both like to play
Words with Friends, or he must have seen that I
liked it, so therefore he would like it too automatically.
But anyway, for what, we ended up playing Words of
Friends against each other and also chatting into sort of

(18:03):
DMS within that app. And yeah, he was really really
good at it, And of course I suspected that maybe
he was using one of those cheat apps. But later
on when he was in person with me, like I'd
be playing a game with somebody else and he would
take my phone and look at it and then tell
me what word to put in, and he wouldn't have
consulted in the app. So I think he just has

(18:25):
one of those brains. He was able to rattle off
a lot of information and facts and know a lot
of stuff. That's so I think he just had one
of those brains.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
Unfortunately, So as your relationship grew online, what did you
think of him?

Speaker 1 (18:39):
What did you think he Who did you think he was.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I think part of the problem is I never really
understood who he was. Unfortunately, that was one of the
things that I realize now I probably have a tendency.
You know, It's like you want answers, you want closure,
and you want to understand who somebody is. So as
long as there's like these unanswered questions and mystery, you're
always trying to find out. More So, even after I
met him, and I was very underwhelmed and kind of thought, shit,

(19:04):
I really invested a lot into that and he wasn't
what I thought. And I mean, I would just caution
anybody against forming a relationship and any kind of attachment
to anybody online and long distance before meeting them in
person physically, and not just because somebody might be misrepresenting
how they look in photos, but because it's just all

(19:24):
about people's energy and pheromones and and there's I'm sure
there's so many things that we've sense when we're in
somebody's presence that we don't sense when it's online. But
you know, he presented himself as this very mysterious figure,
and I was always unsure of the entire time. I
was kind of unsure of everything. But it was that

(19:48):
way from the start, and I thought after I first
met him binly in person that while he wasn't really
he wasn't really what I expected, And I guess that's that,
But he was able to eventually warm his way back
into my life over and over and over again.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
It all seems very by design, like he left enough
questions unanswered for you to kind of feel the men
in your mind and kind of create a fantasy. Then
he also left this really big anticipation window for you
to meet him, so you were able to kind of like,
I don't know, Stu, you already formed an attachment to
this idea. He had a Boston accent. You kind of

(20:27):
made a little joke about it. He dropped that, like
this man was on from the get Yeah, I mean
he was obviously assessing you and what your vulnerabilities were, yes,
and the questions that he just kept asking you questions
and questions and questions, and like it felt like him
really wanting to get to know you. But then while
you're writing it back, you're like, oh my god, Yes,

(20:48):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
I had a blog on our website back then, I
already put out so much very personal information about myself
that was all there for him to read. He was
also asking lots of questions and paying so much attention
to me that now I see things and recognize what's
happening much more in any type of a situation. But
back then I was just sort of eating up that

(21:10):
kind of attention.

Speaker 4 (21:11):
Yeah, my good friend, uh had a break up with
someone who had extremely antisocial tendencies, and looking back, reflecting
back on it, she was like, it felt like we
were connecting and like he was giving me attention, but
he was just asking me questions and molding himself according
to the answers over time, and it just felt so
good at the time that I didn't identify it.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
But that's something I just like had never thought about before.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, well that's the thing, Like sociopaths are people like
this don't count on people have ever thinking of these things.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, because when someone asks you about yourself.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yeah, No, generally it's like, oh, they're showing interest and
curiosity and they want to get to know me, which
is a sign of somebody caring.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
So if we like look at these people through our
normal brain and what we would be doing, yeah, we
get a completely different story about what they're doing. Which
is just collecting information.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yes, and that's why it's you know, it's too bad
that like workplace romance is so frowned upon, because I
feel like in a work context at least when people
used to go to offices more than they do now.
But getting to know people in that context is a
really healthy way to meet somebody because you see, you
learn a lot about them seeing them interacting with other people,

(22:23):
and you learn about them not in the context of
just somebody showing up listening to what you're saying and
then being like, oh you like, you know whatever, roller wedding.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
So why that's always how the conversation goes. And you
have very specific once you know you want to create
and ps I love how veganism can become a cult
in and of itself. But you kept this very like open,
like sometimes you might try a little of this, like
it's just an option. Most people eating here sometimes aren't vegan.

(22:54):
It's it's just something to try. And like, I don't know,
I thought it was cool that you didn't make it culties.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, and most of the I think, even even amongst
the staff, I mean I don't know the number, but
I think more than half the people working there wouldn't
identify as vegan right right, Actually, easily more than half
wouldn't identify as vegan, and all of that was really
important to me. I didn't want it to be a
place where you walk in and feel any kind of
vibe of judgment.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
So, yeah, I love that I do feel judged by people.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Eat it right.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
I want to hear a little bit more about when
you did meet in real life and how it didn't
it didn't connect with the person you had sort of
constructed based on his online persona. What did you think
at first?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, the problem is I was really nervous, and so
I was drinking beers on an empty stomach. And you know, again,
this is one of the things I would caution people against,
is allowing so much time to go by where the
excitement was build up. I had so much invested in
it that I wanted it to all be all right,
and you know, I just did so many things not right.

(24:01):
I mean I let him come to my apartment right away,
which was just dumb.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Listen, I've done that.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yeah, to note that he's been building himself up as
like he hasn't been saying it out rightly, but he's
almost like a special ops like like military dude, Like
I can pick you up under one arm, your dog
under the other, Like I'm a safe, safe person.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, I mean, as I detail in the book, and
I think I even wrote that, I felt like, you know,
hurtling on the keyboard while I was writing the part,
because it's just gross, you know, But I just i'd also,
I had been single for quite a while. I didn't
need anybody after that after that breakup, and so I've
been on my own for more than six months. And yeah,

(24:43):
so we sort of like hooked up immediately. And of
course I wish I hadn't done that, but I did.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
I mean, we've all done that, and it normally doesn't
result in like a year's long life ruining.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, And I have to add to because so many
of the photographs of him that are out there in
the post Bad Vegan docu series world are when he
was like this huge, massive, massive dude, and he was
not that when I met him. When I met him,
he was a lot thinner. And that part's hard to
talk about too, because he looked way better in his

(25:16):
photos than he did when he showed up. But he
was so cute. He just looked like, you know, I
don't know, one of those like defensive football players that
has that extra layer of.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
But just like a safe, yeah, teddy bear, masculine. Yeah,
someone who's gonna hold keep yeah, be safe, gonna wrap.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
His arms around you.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
But then after that, like I was really interested in
how you have a couple of encounters with him and
you're like not that into him, yes, and it sounded
like you were like kind of ready to move on,
but then he worms his way back into your life.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes, how did he do that? I mean a lot
of times I'm like, I don't could we ask him?
You know, a lot of these things are things that
I don't fully understand. I mean, I try to explore
it and as honestly as I can. In the book,
it seems like early on he repeatedly had excuses to
come back into my life. Then at one point it

(26:13):
changes because he borrowed money from me, and then from
that point on, I'm always going to want it back.
So that created a financial tether. And there was also
one time where he in person gave me this story
about how he could solve all my financial issues, you know,
because I had been in personal debt because of that
prior relationship with Matthew, and then I had bought the

(26:36):
restaurant from the original financial investor, and so there was
debt in the restaurant, and even though things are going great,
I felt sort of trapped. And he came and told
me this sort of fantastical story in person that he
would be able to basically wipe out all my debt
and you know, make my dreams come true. And very

(26:57):
very naively I believed him, And I think that part
of the reason I I mean, it's not that one
hundred percent believed him, but I think back then I
just couldn't have imagined that somebody would tell such a lie. Yeah, right,
Like why it's sort of like telling somebody, oh, I've
got you know, I've got the miracle cure for the

(27:18):
disease for y child or something like that. Like why
would somebody lie about something like that? That would be
horrendously cool. Now I get it, because it happens. I
mean I've had people kind of try to full variation
of that on me even now. I Mean usually they're
randos online and I and they'll say stuff like that
to me, and I'm like yeah, right, but yeah, at

(27:41):
the time, I just thought, oh my god, like okay, well,
and that's certainly, you know, opened the door wide in
terms of wedding him. Back in.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
My mom and I've talked about that a lot as well,
because she herself, like both of us, are very uncomfortable
with dishonesty, and she like can't envision that somebody at
the time when this had all happened to her. Obviously
now she knows, but she like couldn't imagine that someone
would say such a crazy thing as that they are

(28:12):
a prophet.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Can you sleep at night? Right? How did you ever
go to sleep at night telling people lies? Like like
we project our own character onto other people.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yes, yes. And also I think that there's something so
not that long ago, I ended up getting evaluated and
getting a autism one diagnosis, which is just interesting but
part of that, and I think it's way more common
than people realize. So it's not like i'mlike special, but
there's something that correlates with that diagnosis, which is taking

(28:44):
people at face value. Because we are very much we
are extremely straightforward, it wouldn't occur to me. I'm a
really bad liar. I don't like to lie. It makes
me uncomfortable. But there's some kind of a especially women
who have this diagnosis, it's like almost guarantee that you're
going to be abused and manipulated because there's something in
that kind of a wiring that it's like the default

(29:07):
setting is to assume that other people are kind of
what you see is what you got.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, yep, have you seen the movie Speak No Evil?
Either of them? There's a remake in English.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
No, I'm just going.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
To shout it out because there's there's a scene in
your book where he convinces you to let him and
his dad give you a ride to your mom's house.
He describes it as a ride, but then once you
get there, you discover he means stay the weekend, and
there's just like these steps where he just sort of
like keeps slowly encroaching on your boundaries. Yes, those movies,

(29:46):
I just want to tell it, like, they're basically horror
movies about people doing that exactly boundaries slowly.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yes, And it's very.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Dangerous when you're you know, when you're conditioned as when
you're typically yeah, when you're polite, in your condition to
not be rude, to not want to make somebody else
feel bad. And also I think there's a level of
I mean the way I was raised, and I write
enough about my background in the book to kind of

(30:15):
express this. But I was not one of those people
sometimes look at me and they think, like, I don't
know why, it's like, oh, I have blonde hair. I
must have been raised like a princess or something like. No,
I was. It was the opposite, right, So I walked
around feeling completely unentitled and lacking boundaries and confidence. Right,

(30:35):
so when somebody goes way out of their way to
do a favor for you, which I was reluctant to
accept it, but again he sort of convinced me that
oh no, it's no big deal, blah blah blah. But
then it was a big deal and he is dad. Come.
And then because they do this whole favor for me,
I'm then put in a weird position because I don't
want to say, like what, no raise and kind of.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Someone's dad, I could never oh my god, I know,
oh my god. Ever, and like his dad mm mmmmmm,
his dad seemed to be affirming who he was and
with dad jokes my weakness. Yeah, yeah, it's like he
was funny too. I'm fought in this situation, completely dead
and done. I'm interested to know, like at this point

(31:14):
had this kind of fantastical side quest version of him
come online.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
I think it came out later. The ride Dad was
more was early on because he hadn't at that point,
he hadn't met my mom yet. That was the first
time he'd ever went to my mom's house. And I
think I realized now too in retrospect, that's when he
sized up my mom as being a potentially really good target.

Speaker 4 (31:35):
I want to hear a little bit more about this
authority that he sort of implies that he has, and
how you receive that.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Like I wrote down a couple of things.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
He would say, things like it's people like me that
make it possible for people like you to sleep safely
at night. He forwards you a link to an article
about black Op Special Forces. When he leaves town, he
tells you he's going to be off calms for a
few days. Is yes, So, like, what what did you think?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
I know it was a mystery and like you didn't
really know?

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Well, when I asked specific questions, he deflected caught onto
the inconsistencies. He just would deflect in turnoil.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah. I could never get a straight answer out of him.
And again, people like him are able to you know,
this is typical of a sociopath, is that they could
stand on the world stage, you know, and tell fantastical
lies and not flinch and not exhibit any of the
signs that most normal people would we you know, would

(32:37):
miserably fail a lie detector test. But whatever is going
on and there, those things aren't going on in their body.
They're not exhibiting any signs of being nervous. You know,
they're so confident in everything that they do that you
just kind of assume that they're telling the truth. And
you know, there he did. He forwarded me this article
about something related to black ops and he had been

(32:57):
talking about something similar like the week before. And he
doesn't say anything, but it sort of affords it to
me as if I'm supposed to connect the dots and
figure out that he is one of them. And that's
why he knew some of the things that he told
me that then came out in the article, which again
I don't know how he knew that shit or whatever,
but he just had so much confidence about it all

(33:19):
that it was like, oh okay, and again you know,
like you can't really disprove any of that stuff, So yeah,
I think a lot of it was was his very
the sort of dominating energy of confidence. When that kind
of a thing comes at me, and I have gone
through my entire life with the opposite of sort of

(33:39):
always feeling uncertain and without boundaries and I'm unworthy, and
you know, when I'm kind of the opposite, I'm probably
extra susceptible of that kind of dominating confidence.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, and your heartbroken at this time, you're like going
through heartbreaks, so I don't know.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, I was heartbroken, and I con did you to
be heartbroken because I really still even in the early
days when I was around mister Fox, it's not like
here's another strange thing about my stories. It's not like
I was. I wasn't in love with him the way
that normally people in these situations will fall in love
with the perpetrator. I could never really understand it. And

(34:20):
until it was Mark Vicente from the Nexium called in
the Vow who I heard him explain this in another context,
and then of course he and I have talked about
it in person, since, but he was talking about why
all these people were enamored with Keith ring Airy, Because
of course it becomes this sort of joke like these
guys are such buffoons, like why are women all about
these guys who look like either, you know, in Keith's case,

(34:43):
kind of a nerdy buffoon and in mister Fox's case,
I don't know, a big, big, old giant slob. But
what Mark said is that what these people do is they,
you know, they take your best qualities and mirror them
back to you, and they create sort of a an
idealized version of who you want to be that encompasses

(35:03):
all your hopes and dreams and make it as if
they're the way to reach that and that through them
you can get there. And so what ends up happening
is you form like a sort of attachment to them,
and it's more like you're enamored and they become your guru,
and then it can feel like love. So, you know,
it's confusing for me because of meeting all of my
messages that I was able to recover. There's plenty of

(35:25):
times where I would say to him that I love you,
but it wasn't like I was in love with him.
It was. It was a sort of attachment that over
time became more of a sickening attackment.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
It was like an extension of your dreams.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
Well, also when that person is both the creator of
all your problems and the one dangling all solutions, that
is Yeah, that is the trauma bond. Yeah, that feels
like love it. I sent my friend this thing you wrote,
because again, I just like see such parallels with so
many relationships that people in my life and I have encountered.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Though albet not to this extent.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
But you basically found out that he had been convicted
of a crime, or at least arrest of her crime,
under a different name than the one that he had
given you.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yeah, that's when I found out his name was something else.
And of course he acted like, oh yeah, of course
the name I told you it wasn't my real name, you.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
Know, you wrote.

Speaker 4 (36:19):
So naturally, I blocked all communication with him, release that
I dodged a bullet few and moved on with my
life building my amazing brand and business. Just kidding, I
did not do that. Instead, I let him explain. The
letting him explain hit so hard, because like, that is
the thing, like with people like this the minute you
let them explain, they're just so good at it. Well,

(36:41):
that was only because I was trying to protect you. Well,
I only said that because.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
I'm just trying to not reveal too much and ultimately
it's going to be good for you in the end.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Like there's just always an explanation.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
And do you make great points about him having a
very hypnotic voice, about him having a lot of repetitive
information and these things is kind of lulling you back.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, I mean, of course I've gone down many rabbit
holes of trying to understand this sort of dynamic and
how and I've heard people say, uh, like there's this
FBI negotiator guy Voss Breton Blake and his name but
like I know his Instagram handle, but I can't remember
his actual Yeah, yeah, probably very normal. But he he

(37:25):
talks about how you know, when you put on this
voice that kind of sounds like a you know, a
radio broadcaster that's very soothing, that it's very very powerful
and hypnotic. And then there was a really chilling quote
in an Atlantic article with an interview with Steve Bannon
where he talks about the power of radio and him

(37:46):
broadcasting his message over just audio to people, and he
says something about like the power of my I don't
know the exact quote, but it was something about how
powerful his voice in people's ears could be, and it
just it was very creepy. But it made me think
about my own situation because there were so many occasions

(38:06):
where in our G chats, which is what I was
able to recover, and so I have a lot of
art actual dialogue in the former G chats and those parts,
some of them are kind of funny because I'm pushing
back at him, I'm making He's trying to get me
to send in more money and I'm refusing, and then
he would either call me or he would come back,
and then according to my records, you know, it's like, oh,

(38:29):
and then I sent him another wire for thirty thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
Because he talked to you and yeah, yeah, And I
think it's important to note too that that voice can
come in so many different forms, like in the two
by two is the cult I was raised, and it's
very like this, and we just want you.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
To know, yeah, I hate it every.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Time everything that happens, and you're just like.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Where as some commentators they'll talk like.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah, and like I always wonder when I watched World
War two documentaries, I'm like, did all of this escalate
so much? Because you have like Winston Churchill Hitler like
bad guys, good guys, whatever, guys, Like you're just hearing
our voices and it's like freaky And I.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Don't know, you realize we are podcast hosts.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
We may just have videos someday, but yeah, I don't
know that that voice thing is interesting.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Well I think, yeah, just.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
Someone bombarding you also, like, actually, will you tell us
a little bit about that, Like did he consume your
time with communication with him?

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Oh? Why? Yes? Over time it just got worse and
worse where he would and he consumed my time with
all kinds of nonsense. I mean in the end, I
was like, you know, I'm trying to run the business
and under so much stress and giving them all this money,
and then he'd be yelling at me to like go

(39:47):
pick up this chipotlet order and stop everything I'm doing
and do this other nonsense thing. And looking back, I
think a lot of that was just to keep me
constantly destabilized, exhausted and confused and unable to think straight
totally filter.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, what was the first time he asked you for money?
Can you tell us about that?

Speaker 2 (40:10):
He acted like it was this giant emergency, and it
was early on enough that I at that point had
no reason to be angry at him. Really, it's just
my nature to be helpful, I guess, and I don't know.
I mean, you know, again, I wish I could remember
exactly what he said and what the circumstances were. But
he called me on the phone and acted like it
was the sort of temporary, crazy emergency and there were

(40:33):
dire consequences if you didn't get the money. And so
you know, it's a little bit like that bind that
this sort of street con irist will put you in
where they say, you know, I need this, I need
twenty bucks because of some X y Z tragic story,
and you're sitting there having to do the calculation of, well,
my gut's telling me that they're a lying But if

(40:55):
they're not, I'm such an asshole to not get because
if what they're saying is true, oh my god, like
they need the money to get back to their wife
was about to give birth or like some crazy story,
and you think, right, and then you make that calculation
of and I think that's a typical sort of street
con artist thing where you know you're approached by somebody.
It happened to me once at a rest stop somebody

(41:16):
wanted money. This was a long long time ago. It
was a lot easier for those things to happen when
it would make sense that somebody might not have a
credit card or then though. But yeah, and so it
was one of those things where if I didn't give
it to him and he was telling me the truth,
I'd be kind of an asshole because I could get
it to him. So I did, and then you know whatever,

(41:37):
it was multiplied and multiplied.

Speaker 4 (41:39):
I always are on the side of giving it to
them because I'm like that is where I land as well.
I'm like, well, if they are telling the truth, or
if they're in such a desperate.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
And I have to go back in my mind, like
one time I found myself lost in Mexico of all places,
no money, no shoes, like fucked, don't even ask okay,
and I had to like ask somebody for money to
get back to the Odell. I was daying, okay, hilarious,
And they gave it to me, thank God. And I
think and he didn't speak English. He probably didn't have

(42:09):
a ton of money. I think about him every week
of my life, like, thank God for this man who
was like, here's some bus money, yeah, and like yes,
sometimes people actually need money, my god.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
After my mom and I got out of our cult situation,
we had no money and people were weird about helping
her when it was literally like a single mother. So like,
in response to that, it makes sense to me, yeah,
that you err on the side of generosity.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
But then what happened then? How did he use that?

Speaker 2 (42:41):
So then over time like he never you know, he
didn't pay me back. It was one excuse after another,
and then he would use that as a way to
get to allow me to let him come back. And
the thing is he didn't live in New York. He
lived in Massachusetts, and so letting him come back wasn't
like usually just letting him stop by. It would usually
involve him staying for the weekend or at least overnight

(43:02):
or something I don't know. And the funny thing is
he was always staying on my couch because I couldn't
stand to sleep next room because he snored, and anyway,
and then he would do some sort of sorcery on
me so that by the end of the weekend and
somehow loan in more money. You know, it's like it
was a tether.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
Yeah, I mean reading the chats, I think for both
of us was a maddening experience. Just like the way
that he kept moving.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
The yes, classic moving the goalpost. You know, I achieved
the thing that he says is going to be the
very last thing, and once I do that, it'll all
be over. And then it keeps moving, and it keeps moving. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
One of the frustrating things for me was that, like
sometimes he would make me laugh and I would feel like, oh,
they're like almost like I don't know, like brother or
sister or something like I can see that you guys
were close, Like I would feel comfort in him while
I'm being scammed with you.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
And that's the seconding thing is that the person who's
putting into hell is also the only person who can
comfort you because they're the only person that knows about it.
Because again, you put in a situation where you can't
talk to anybody because it's so crazy. So he's the
only one that knows about the hell that he's putting
me through, and therefore He's the only one who can
comfort me, and that was a weird thing to experience.

(44:18):
Fast forward to when I'm arrested, and you know, on
the other side of this, there was a weird element
of that because nobody knew what had really happened, and
so I was all alone. And it is that sickening
trauma ban dynamic that I'm sure is deliberate on their part,
where they're torturing you and then also being like, it's

(44:40):
going to be okay, You're doing good. You know, he
would try to prop me up like that and talk
to me a bit like a child, or a lot
like a child. And then also, you know, as we
talked about early about just him on Twitter, he could
be very funny, and that is maddening because in the

(45:01):
middle of these traumatic experiences, he wouldn't be goofy and
funny and make me laugh. And so that also creates
those elements of cognitive disonance, because somebody couldn't be casually
making jokes and making laugh while they're also destroying your life.
So that's another like layer of humor.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Humor it's like the most dangerous tactic, I think, and
that's why we have the president we have because sometimes
he can say something kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Okay, yeah, so that's hilarious.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
Can you take a moment to take us back to
when you first got a picture of his full face? First,
his Twitter picture was just the bottom of his face,
and then you got a picture of his full face,
and in his eyes there was something that jolted, like
an immediate gut instinct of sphere. Yes, what did that

(45:52):
feel like? What were you sensing? And how did you
override it?

Speaker 2 (45:55):
So what happened was the pictures he put it himself
on first on Twitter, and then he was sending me
were like the lower half of the space. And then
it was just him with sunglasses. And so for a while,
all I saw was pictures of him the sun, and
so he sort of like this slow reveal, which is
creating all this anticipation. And I put a lot of
these pictures online. I made a website for the book,

(46:15):
and I put these photos online so that you can
see what he was showing me. And then finally he
sent me a picture that showed his eyes and it
was a selfie take and he was laying down, but
his eyes were so intense and dark. I was scared
the moment I opened it must have been a text.
When I looked at the text, I immediately felt a

(46:37):
jolt or fear. And that's something that now I pay
attention to everything. Now I'm always paying attention to how
something makes me feel. But at the time, I just,
you know, I overwrote it, and.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
It's not that much information. It's right an image.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
And it's also something at the time I wouldn't have
been able to explain, whereas now I could, Like if
somebody was telling me that this happened to them and
they said, oh, I looked at this picture of Like
if somebody has said that, I would say, run if
you felt that jold of fear, like your body knows,
and run away from that. But at the time I
wouldn't have been able to even give myself that kind

(47:19):
of advice. So I just thought, I mean, I didn't
really think about it. It's probably the problem. I noticed
that I felt that jold of fear, and then you know,
I don't know, maybe you sent me another picture and
I just sort of moved on from it, but I didn't.
I didn't act on it in any way.

Speaker 4 (47:36):
I mean, and to be fair, there are probably photos
of me that someone would jolt in fear from Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Sure, I mean the last thing we always say on
this podcast is remember to trust your guy. And it's
just interesting to me that this immediate gut instinct came
in when you saw those eyes. But I also understand that, like, yes,
you could see a picture of a very nice person
and your gut could say they look weird, and then
you're like, no, they were great.

Speaker 4 (47:59):
So I think that behavior is probably the bigger indicator.
But still the lesson is accurate.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Sometimes your body just knows if.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
You notice something, pay attention to it is the thing.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Yeah, I mean, I can't think of any time I've
ever felt fear or wary of somebody and then they
turned out to be fine.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
Well, I am naturally very narrow eid, so I have right,
But that's because I grew up with the upbringing that
I grew up with, So I'm very skeptical of people
and probably to you know, like I probably go to
for in the other direction, so you know, balance, what's
that There was a man named Danny who noticed these

(48:42):
interactions between you two and tried to warn you.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
He literally like locked this man.

Speaker 4 (48:49):
Yes, yes, he said, hope you realize the isolation and
his attempt to brainwash you are part of the continuing scam,
and you wrote that you actually got angry with him
for saying that.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Can you tell us about that?

Speaker 2 (49:01):
When I went back and found those communications between me
and Danny, it was I don't know how to describe
how that felt. It just felt crazy because I didn't
remember it, but I remembered that Danny had gotten angry,
and I vaguely remembered that Danny had sort of pointed
out that he was probably a con artist. But when
I went back and I looked up those conversations and

(49:22):
I found those get chats between Danny and I, and
he says, he says exactly what was going on, and
I yeah, and I overrode that. What's weird is that
even then I knew that some of the stuff he
was saying was lies. And that was one of those
times where I had pulled away from mister Fox. I
had pulled away from mister Fox. Yeah, and so I

(49:44):
was kind of agreeing with him, all right, Yeah, the
guy's kind of a liar or whatever. But then he
was able to get back into my life even after that.
But it was sort of heartbreaking to see it written
out like that, you know, in black and white, And
it's part of the reason why people have a tendency
to erroneously but logically, you know, they think that if

(50:05):
they just confront somebody who's in a cult or in
a toxic relationship, but just by pointing it out and going,
oh my god, this person's a total psycho, you've got
to get away from them. I think it's gonna work,
but very often it won't work. I mean, even the
woman who according to when this show aired, there was
a follow up show about somebody went after mister Fox

(50:26):
and found him or his name's Anthony's strangers who changed
his name, and they confront a woman that he's in
a relationship with and she seems to just totally ignore it. So, yeah,
it happens. I mean, Danny's words obviously didn't have an impact. Unfortunately,
I wish they had.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
Yeah, I mean, it just reinforces something we talk about constantly,
which is that like directly attacking the beliefs often backfires
and has that opposite result that you wanted to have. Yeah,
do you think that there's a way he could have
talked about it with you that would have been more
likely to penetrate.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Asked this question a lot, and I struggle with it
because I also end up a lot of times, you know,
sort of counseling or talking other people through this very situation.
So you know, siblings or parents who are dealing with
a child or a sibling or a friend or who's
in a situation and they're trying to get them out
and it's very, very hard. I think it was weird

(51:23):
because Danny. It's not like Danny was a close friend
or a sibling. If it were, that would have made
a big difference because if he had, then he would
have been somebody that was in my life more and
could have continued to push and push and push and
just not give up. So sometimes I do tell people,
you know, the most important thing is to maintain that relationship,

(51:44):
so don't push so hard that it's going to do
what actually happened with Danny. Again, he wasn't a really
good friend, but even if he had, potentially it could
have backfired in a way that that's like you you
push that person out of your life because you're you're like, oh,
well they're an asshole, So I'm now not going to
listen to them at all and you cut them off,

(52:05):
so kind of the most important thing is to maintain
that contact.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
As frustrating as it might be.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Oh yeah, I know.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
AHD for our last like ten ish minutes of part one,
here can you talk about how you ended up married
to this man you didn't even really like?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
I know, I mean, this is one of the things
that I had a lot of issues with bad began,
which I've talked about like ad nauseam. And one of
the more minor ones was that they in the docu
saries about my story, they make it seem like I
married him under completely different circumstances than I really did,
and I did not want to marry him, and he

(52:43):
basically like browbeat me and convinced me. And as in
these situations, very often these people just like they're just
relentless and then finally you're like, oh fine, I'll do
the thing you want me to do.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Because Laura so, coeopaths have unlimited energy. Ps they're never tired. God,
they just batter batter bad or bad or bad or
batter batter where you serial killers have nine families and
they just say they stay all night killing people have
a full time job. And like they just badger you.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
So yeah, no that I mean, that's that's actually a
good point. And as one of the more obscure red
flags is that if somebody bombards you with like ruling
long text messages or they like write these really long rants.
And I say that hesitantly because you know, I have
a tendency to be a bit long winded, but anything

(53:33):
like that where you know, you wonder, how can they
possibly put so much time and energy into this? Is
it red flagging?

Speaker 4 (53:40):
But that's bombarding that's consuming your time as well. I
mean it's that's like, yeah, more of that same thing.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
I mean, there's so much more that I know now
now that I also understand my own wiring better, I
think I'm extremely prone to getting mentally exhausted in that
kind of a way because I'm one of those people
that gets mentally exhausted by social interactions. So just being
around other people and having to interact with other people

(54:06):
is exhausting. And then layer on all of his bullshit
just in my face constantly. It's like I was more
and more weakened such that my defenses were down and
it was harder to not do what he wanted me
to do, and it seems preposterous that I would be like, Okay, fine,
let's get married. But at the time, it just it
was what he convinced me to do, and he acted

(54:28):
like it would make you know. At the time, you know,
he had this story that he somehow had all this
money that he was about to get and then you'd
be able to transfer it to me, and but it
went beyond that. By this time. He also had me
really scared. I think your mom said something about this
in her story, where you get to the point where
you think they are always being watched by a bunch

(54:49):
of people, and so all your behavior and everything is
being watched and you're being judged. And he made it
seem like I was in danger, and so I'm just
hyper on edge. And he said that like if I
married him, I would be protected and this would all
just be so much easier and we'll just get it
all done faster, basically, and I was I just was like,

(55:09):
all right, fine, you know, And we went to Sydney
Hall and got the marriage license, and I remember being
there and having this feeling of like just feeling sick
about it because I remember thinking I'd be so embarrassed
if I ran into somebody I knew and what would
I say. And also just noticing all the other couples
there that are like in love and holding hands and
they're so excited getting their marriage license and I'm sitting

(55:31):
there like, ugh, after you get a marriage license, youhet
away twenty four hours. So twenty four hours later we
went to you know, like a whatever. I had just
found a person who would do it, and we got married.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
I noticed that even in the marriage process, like the
person marrying you pretended to be the witness and signed
the paper, Like, yeah, these people are just always pushing
the boundaries.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
There's all these little things that like don't.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
Even seem like that I get a deal at the time,
but they're able to manipulate people and following the rules.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, and it's just little things that add up over time.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
I think he was manipulating a bunch of other people
at the same time as me. You know, some I'm
almost positive about. But but yeah, he was really really
good at what he did, and I think he's manipulating
some not just women, but none too.

Speaker 4 (56:18):
I think that's an important point too, because that's something
that kind of gets lost in my mom's story as well.
People will assume that she was just this global person
who was the sole victim. And then if you actually
look at the history of our cult leader, he has
done this.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yeah, I forgot we called him chat.

Speaker 4 (56:41):
He's done this to so many people, including men, and
he's swindled so many people out of their money and
in so many different ways. And that's the thing, Like,
it's never just one person, even when that's the only
like public facing story, right, you.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Know, and they do it to other in tall didn't
accomplish people. So I mean, there's some that I know
for sure about, like the guy nozine and my story,
who he conned him out of not nearly as much,
but canned him out of money. But there are other
people involved in the story too, like a real estate
broker who if I had to make a bet, I
would say definitely he got a bunch of money out

(57:18):
of that guy. I just know it because that guy
doesn't want to talk to He was a really nice guy,
but doesn't want to talk to me. The people when
the show that ended up being called Bad Eating was
being made, they reached out to him and they wanted
to talk to him, and he was like, no buck off,
go away. And I think that reputationally it would be
bad for him if he fell for con because he's

(57:40):
a real estate broker, a very high network people. But
that just the way he responded made me think that
for sure he got con. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
I mean, you guys were on the top level of
the secret floor at Tiffany's while he's getting champagne everywhere,
like he was just scamming everybody. He's comfortable everywhere. You know,
scammer's got a skin. So here you are.

Speaker 4 (58:02):
Yeah, to wrap a part one here, what was the
total approximately money that this man scam do out of
In the end.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
I wouldn't know the exact total because, especially early on,
a lot of it was a form of cash. But
in the end I think we got over two million dollars.
It's not like it was my money. You know, I
didn't have money in the bank. I wasn't living large,
I didn't have a savings account, I didn't have assets,
I didn't have investments. So yeah, it was pretty bad.

Speaker 4 (58:35):
And next week we will talk more about that process.
And that concludes Part one. Comeback next week for Part
two with Sarma. There's so much more to get him in.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
We barely jumped, We barely jumped off the legs.

Speaker 4 (58:49):
We could have done triple the amount of interviewing that
we did do. So, Megan, do you think that you
would join mister Fox?

Speaker 3 (59:01):
So to be clear, if this is your first episode.
At the end of episodes, we ask if I would
join the cult because I'm susceptible. So what I joined
mister Fox's cult? Probably hard tell me more, all of
the coincidences, him being friends with the celebrity that I
was like crushing on, him being funny my biggest weakness,

(59:23):
and then this twisted, warped sense of destiny, you know,
proving myself tests well, it's a trope, that is just
Megan tumbles down the rabbit and there she goes. So
I thankfully, and I'm not as good at procuring money

(59:44):
from people, thank god, because otherwise.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
I mean, I do know you well, it would all
be gone, Yeah, it'll be gone.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
Yeah yeah. Reading this story, I was like, I could
definitely end.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
Up in this situation totally. I mean, you have to.
You have to be pretty self aware and know that
most of us could.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Most of us could.

Speaker 4 (01:00:06):
But I think like the type of manipulator that he
was where he's like, I mean, I'm a sucker for
someone who's like funny on the internet, who seems like
really confident and like is gonna help, you know, because
I'm a career bitch, you know, like that's my thing,
that's my weakness. Like if you, I mean, I have many,
but if it was like, what's the one thing that

(01:00:27):
motivates you, it's like, oh, well, getting my you know,
these like artistic projects that I dreamed about, like getting
them off the ground. So if someone was like, hey,
I'm gonna like make all your dreams come true and
you just have to let me borrow two thousand dollars first.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yeah, yeah, But to be honest with you, having read
the book, I'm so much less likely to ever fall
into such a thing.

Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
These stories, these stories matter, They inoculate us, yes, at
least to some extent truly, So anyway, I please read
the book.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
Please join us next week for part two to rate
us five stars if you're so inclined, and as always,
remember to follow your gut, watch out for Rad Flagg's,
and never ever trust me. Hey bye. This has been
an exactly right production hosted by me Lola Blanc and
Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G. Holly.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kuttner.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark
and Daniel Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at
trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me Coult podcast.
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation.
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts,