Sarma Melngailis - Part 2: Isolation, Deeper into the Scam, & Getting Arrested

In part 2, Sarma Melngailis, subject of the docuseries Bad Vegan and author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, tells Lola & Meagan how Mr. Fox consumed her time, overwhelmed her with information, and dangled promises of financial freedom that was always JUST around the corner as a way to get her to send him more and more money.

She’ll share about the fabricated online personas he created as part of the manipulation, how he always knew things it seemed like he couldn’t have known, and the tactics he used to keep her in a constant state of confusion and dependence, driving across the country until they were finally both arrested. Plus, how she felt about her time in Rikers, and the current status of her restaurant.

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The Girl With the Duck Tattoo

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me?

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Do you trust her?

Speaker 3 (00:04):
I ever lead you astray?

Speaker 4 (00:05):
Trust This is the truth, the only truth.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
and manipulation from two battie's in debt who've actually experienced it.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Today's part two of our interview with Sarma mel Guiless,
author of The Girl with a Duck Tattoo, whom you
may have seen in the docuseries Bad Vegan. This week,
she is going to tell us about how her manipulator,
mister Fox, consumed her time, overwhelmed her with information, and
dangled promises of financial freedom that was always just around
the corner as a way to get her to borrow

(00:43):
and send him more and more and more money.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Damn this man.

Speaker 5 (00:48):
She'll tell us about the fabricated online persona he created
as part of the manipulation, how he always knew things
it seemed like he couldn't have known if he didn't
have some kind of special power, and the tactics he
used to keep her in a constant state of confusion
and dependence, including an increasing barrage of tests, and then

(01:10):
we'll finally discuss how they drove across the country until
they were finally both arrested.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Plus how she felt about her time at Rikers and
the current status of her restaurant. Yes, indeed, I'm just
I'm so happy we got to have her on. I Like,
I've said it a million times in the interview, but
I just connect with so much about her story because
it's so similar to my mom's and hearing and reading
just like the details the changes. Oh god, yeah, I

(01:38):
mean it's really really insightful into the psychology of how
of the details of what happens. Megan, that's me. No,
Magnificent Megan, you don't know talk about it. No one
is going to understand this reference. But it's very funny,
I promise, Magnificent Megan. What is your cultiest thing this week? God?

Speaker 5 (01:57):
Okay, Well, I mean this happened a couple months ago.
I've been hesitant to admit it because it feels shameful
to me, But after reading Sarma's book and knowing that
being open about these things helps, I'm just gonna say
it out loud. I got fucking scammed, bro.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
You got scammed.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
I got Target scammed hard? How will I will tell you?
Because I'm a person who's like pretty aware of scams.
I have the secret password for the family in case
somebody calls and like pretends to be kidnapped with the
like I am on top of my scammy shit, you
know what I mean. The other day, guy called me
and he was like, this has Chase. Did you just
charge nine thousand dollars to your card? And I was like, yeah,
I did, and he was like it was in Florida

(02:37):
and I was like, yep, it was in Florida, and like,
I know when people are scamming me, okay, Amy who.
I feel like I'm pretty savvy about people trying to
scam me. However, when fear is involved, things get crazy.
And I got a message through my work email from
my boss that said, Megan, I need you to resent

(02:58):
your number.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
I've lost it. This is from his.

Speaker 5 (03:00):
Email immediately and I'm like, oh my god, it's blooda
da da da da da.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
And he texts me and he's like, Megan, I need
you to.

Speaker 5 (03:08):
Go grab me some gift cards from Target because I
made some people mad yesterday at the company, which I
knew is true, and I want to give them some gifts.
And I was like, that's so nice of you. I'm
really busy on this thing right now. And he's like,
I don't care. I need you to go now, and
I'm like what okay. Randomly my friend text me do

(03:28):
you want to go to Target?

Speaker 2 (03:29):
What the fuck? Okay? I'm like sure, I'll meet you
at Target. So my friend is there and.

Speaker 5 (03:34):
She's like like going down the aisle and I'm like,
I can't shop right now. I have to buy gift
cards for Target. Six hundred dollars worth of gift cards.
This man has me buy three two hundred dollars things. Okay,
I buy the gift cards. I'm like, weird, but whatever.
He goes megan, I'm so sorry, I need I need
three more, Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
And I'm like is this coming from his phone number?
That's like no, no, the new number.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
And I'm like, okay, fourteen hundred dollars this person has
me spending on gift cards. I go to a Target employee,
like the manager working behind what looks like the return
to usk talking to a girl and I'm like, please
look at these texts.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
I'm so scared.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Is this illegal? Am I getting scammed, Like what's happening?
And because I'm such.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
A goody goody tattletale like freaked out and he's like, no,
I mean it sounds like your boss was just a
dick to some people and months to be nice.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
And I was like, wait, that's.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
What the target is.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
Because I gave him some backstory, you know what I mean,
Like I'm chatting a zero off, I'm yapping at him
and I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
My friend's like, let's go look at the beauty. I'm like, bitch,
I can't. I'm fucking I'm gonna work.

Speaker 5 (04:45):
And wow, yeah, so them on the last fourteen hundred
dollars one.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
I mean I only spent fourteen I'm the last buy.

Speaker 5 (04:54):
My dad happened to call me, Oh thank god, and
I explained to him what I was doing and he goes, Megan, stop,
somebody just did this to one of his employees. Please
grab me some gift cards. I need it for the staff.
It made sense, and they're like, I'll reimburse you. I'll
reimburse you immediately.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Like Sam, that's such a good scam. That's such a
good scam. And was he like, and then give me
the number the car, scratch it off, send it to me.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I'm scratched to do it.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Oh of course, damn. I wish your dad had called
a little bit earlier. I couldn't have called a bit earlier.

Speaker 5 (05:29):
And yeah, and I felt so stupid obviously, well thank you,
but like because the fear of it, I was like
arguing with my friend about you know, I was like
I have to hurry, Like there was just such a
sense of urgency within me of like I don't have
time to look at stuff.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
And that's what I got think we should be on
the lookout for. It feels like it's it has to
happen right.

Speaker 5 (05:57):
Now, like love bombing any of it. Like nothing's better
unless life saving medical.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
If someone wants you to get gift cards urgently, right.

Speaker 5 (06:07):
That CPR and the Heimlink maneuver, those are the urgent things.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not gift cards.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Not gift cards.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
So yeah, the hard way When you looked back at
the email, was it actually from his email?

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Like was he hack?

Speaker 3 (06:23):
No?

Speaker 1 (06:23):
No?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I think it's awesome that you shared that story because
that shit happens to so many people. It's I told you,
I've talked about the times that I've almost gotten scammed
by like someone calling me because they saw something on
my Twitter and they said they were from Twitter, and
they were like, right, yeah, no, that's so good to
know that. Are we able to like get a refund
or anything or no, partially, but some of it they're

(06:49):
just not giving me back.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
So yeah, it sucks.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
I know.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Well, I hope he enjoys whatever he's buying from Target. Yeah,
I know me, so I was like, damn enjoy the
Target cards. Well.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
On a similar note, yeah, give me your cultiest thing
I was gonna do.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
I was gonna do a K pop thing, but I
think I'm gonna switch it.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Actually.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Oh okay, we'll talk about K pop another time. Okay, great.
And by the way, I've written a couple of K
pop songs. I love k pop.

Speaker 5 (07:13):
Yeah, we love love k pop. No one is madic
k pop stands to know that.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, the news Sora came out, Oh my god. As
our mutual friend posts videos, do you see these videos?
He posts all the time? Sign now, uh he loves it.
It makes me feel insane. There was someone who and
this is also relevant to I'm just gonna shout out
my friend's movie app of PHOENIAX because uh, it deals
with this topic in the form of a horror movie.

(07:44):
You can now put yourself into Sora. This program like
put your face in one time and it can have you.
It could create a realistic video of you doing absolutely anything.
It can put you into any TV show and it's
still like maybe a little rough looking sometimes, but it's
very realistic.

Speaker 5 (08:02):
For how early it is a hundred of myself doing ballet?
Why ballet? Because lifelong dream? And I was just like,
what would I look like doing ballet?

Speaker 2 (08:09):
About yes, but.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
There was a man who like he just very easily
made it look like he had robbed a bank. It
is so easy now to put somebody's face in any
environment and to just make up a fucking video perfect timing.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
With our current administration and all the things that people
are going to be able to say, that was aa.
I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
And also just like the scams that are going to happen,
the manipulations that are going to happen, it's very very scary. Well,
I'll tell you one thing.

Speaker 5 (08:37):
A lot of people have been sending me their SRA
videos of themselves, you know, like eating with all this,
and I'm like, real talk, I'm not going to watch
your Instagram video of your actual life. I'm letting definitely
not watching a fifteen second fake video of you eating
ice cream on the moon.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Wait, it does feel.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Fair alert when people did all those there've been all
those like little Here's what I'd look like as a
cartoon character, Here's what I'd look like as an old person,
Like I don't care. But but the fact that you
could like forge someone doing anything and saying anything totally
and use that as a tool of manipulation.

Speaker 5 (09:17):
And sometimes people are already believing that it's a real
thing that happened and it says Sora on it.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, because people just don't know what that means. They
don't know if it's a Sora on it. Guys, it's
definitely fake.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Also, look at the fingers. Are there five or are
there more or less? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, it's scary. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Like, I know that this is a big debate among
everybody right now, and there are people who are like, well,
farmers were afraid of technology and like get sure, but
like this is the most like aggressively egregiously unregulated scam
potential and manipulation potential and like propaganda potential technology that
we've ever seen. And so I'm I can't wait to

(09:55):
see what transpires. What videos you gonna do with me?

Speaker 2 (09:58):
I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 5 (10:00):
You might have to you might have to start doing
a few of yourselves. Send it around because they need
a scam that face.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
I don't want to. Don't scam my face.

Speaker 5 (10:08):
I had to do that full face scam for those
ballet of videos.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
I will not be doing that, but it will be
able to make me anyway.

Speaker 5 (10:16):
It doesn't matter if you had a childhood dream. I
do suggest putting yourself doing the thing. My childhood dream
was to be a princess. Then you can make that
happen and it's kind of fun. But don't show anybody.
Don't send it to anyone because they don't give a shit.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Also, Ai, I just want to study that data centers
in the UK actually this I think I saw this
through our guest from next week. But the amount of
energy that the data centers in the UK are using
totally negates the impact of switching to green.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
So you can see yourself writing away it's not worth it,
literally not. Our plan is.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
A good point because the good magnificent Megan the whale writing.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Video that I made.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay, why did I also get a man writing a dolphin.

Speaker 5 (11:10):
Because that's what you want to see, and like, if
we have to destroy our one planet, then so be it.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
No, let's not, I know not. I like our plan.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
It's beautiful for now. I love it.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, all right, yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:25):
Well, let's talk to somebody who actually is doing something
to save the planet, A meaning Vegan.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Oh good segue. Okay, here we go. Welcome back, Sarma.
We left off last week talking to you about the
amount of money that mister Fox had scanned you and

(11:51):
your loved ones and associates out of For someone who
maybe hasn't seen Bad Vegan or hasn't read your book yet,
can you kind of just like explain, like in simple terms,
what the scam was, like what he was saying, or
like what he made you believe would happen if you
gave the money.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Unfortunately, it's hard to do concisely because, as is common
with these people, the story keeps changing over time.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
So in the beginning it was one thing, and then
over time it worked into something else, and then it
worked into something else, to the point where at the
end he sort of found a way to justify everything
he was doing. By that point, it was so far gone,
and I was so far gone that he justified absolutely
every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the
money as being a bunch of these tests. Had to

(12:39):
pass these tests, and getting the money was part of that,
and he acted like it was no big deal, like
he was just putting.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
It somewhere, and it was all about.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
These tests of loyalty, and also making me believe that
none of it mattered, because as soon as we were
done with this thing, which that goalpost kept moving, all
of these people would be you know, I'd be able
to pay them back double triple. I could money with them,
as you said, So by that point I was far
into the delusion. He spun these stories that kept changing

(13:09):
and changing, and then over time you leave in that
psychological aspect to where it it's harder and harder for
me to get out of because I'm in so deep.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, at first, it's I'm going to pay you back
and you're going to be rewarded with so much more money,
and then it sort of evolves and there's like a
spiritual component, yes.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
Like now these tests aren't even on this realm anymore.
They're kind of yeah, like, can you kind of walk
us through what?

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (13:36):
I mean?

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Over time, he had me convinced, not convinced, but he
had me sort of always with one foot in his
reality and then one foot of not really knowing what
was reality, but making it seem as if he had
all these special powers and what's eerie now? And I
don't think I've talked about this on any other podcasts,
but I found it fascinating and I noticed.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
It while I was working on my memoir.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
You know, I'd already written the whole draft, but I
made sure to work these things in because I'd started
to hear things about Kabbala, basically from Instagram reels, and
then I got really curious and I was looking into
it because I was hearing things that were reminding me
of stuff that he used to say to me.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
And so this idea that my.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Soul came here and my primary issue to work out,
which if you looked into Kabbala, like everybody has their
takoon is what it's called, and mine was financial and
so that that's why he was testing me on this.
And then a lot of other things, like he sort
of conditioned me to not get mad at him, to
not get reactive. But he explained that if I get

(14:40):
reactive in a situation and I lose my temper, that
that will lead to something bad happening, not just in
a way that we could all imagine would logically happen,
potentially for example, and I've heard this explained in Kabbala,
that you know, if you're reactive to something and lose
your temper and lash out of somebody or whatever you do,

(15:00):
that that might then be the cause of your walking
outside and tripping and spraining your ankle, which is totally illogical,
but in a spiritual world it's made out like there's
that consequence to your action, and so he presented it
to me in that way. And there are all these
other examples, like later on the really icky, gross like
sexual abuse stuff, he would tell me that he needed

(15:23):
my light, that it was like energy, that he needed
my light. And that's also something that I heard talked about,
you know, listening to kabbala stuff online where you know
your sexual energy is like a light in your murdering
with that person, and I just all, it's just there's
so many examples where what he was telling me, now
I see happens to mirror that stuff. And I don't

(15:43):
know what to make of it, but he certainly wove
in this spiritual component that just added to this sort
of confusing soup in which he kept me boiling.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Where you were human and he was not was oh yeah, yeah, Now.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
He made it out like he came here and he
was shepherding me through this process and now I'm this
is very typical I think in cold situations too, is
like I'm chosen, I'm special, I'm the chosen one. So
even though I'm just used to call me as TBA
just tiny belong human, therefore, by implication, is not human
and is something more like some kind of a god

(16:21):
that came here.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
And Yeah, I want to just like sort of reiterate
your point about the story changing, because I think that's
something that people who have never experienced this kind of
manipulation I don't think necessarily often understand. Yes, And what
we kind of see over and over again is that
like once you have formed that bond with the manipulator,

(16:46):
that trauma bond, or once they have like convinced you
that they are the authority, no matter how smart you are,
they have systematically reduced your critical thinking abilities using and
true tactics. So it's you're not in a position mentally
to be like, wait, but the story changed, because your

(17:08):
lifeline is the person who is the authority, and once
you have given them that trust and they are that
figure for you, then they can kind of change it
however much they want. Because my dude also the number
of spiritual systems or political like he morphs it like
every six months, what he is saying he's about or

(17:28):
what the belief system is, it doesn't matter, it's not
the point. The point is he's got these people who
he has manipulated who will do whatever he says because
they are trapped in this hole and they don't know
how to get out.

Speaker 5 (17:39):
And a great example of that is like end time dates.
People are like, well, if somebody gives an end time
date and it doesn't come true, everyone's gonna leave.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
No, people don't walk any harder.

Speaker 5 (17:46):
Like the trauma bond, the cognitive dissonance, And there is
that trauma bond statistic where it's like if you're nice
and then mean to a dog, it's like two hundred
and fifty three percent more loyal to you, Like, it's
just very very uh innate in our DNA.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, we're all susceptible. This could happen to all of us.
We all the time talk about how we think we're
going to be like because we know someone is potentially
like a narcissist or like having antisocial tendencies or whatever,
that we won't be vulnerable to their tactics. But then
at the end of it, we're like, fuck.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, of course, because it just works.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
It just works, because it's that alternating the high and
the crash and the high and.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
The animals at the end of the day. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, And it's really unfortunate that. I mean, I've been
through it multiple times now, so I realize from my
own experience how hard it is. You sort of think
if it happens as you want, it's never going to
happen again. But that's why I told the story in
as much detail as I did about my situation with Matthew,
because even on the other side of that, I came
out of that aware. You know, somebody who known him

(18:50):
for a long time said, well, he's a textbook sociopath,
And so I had done all this research on cinciopathy
and understood that people like that exhist and I think
I didn't think about it that much. I you know, again,
I was busy with the restaurant. I was preoccupied. I
was running the business on my own. And you should
have this feeling like, well, it could never happen again, right,

(19:13):
But it's the opposite. Whatever it was that made you well,
woles of that in the first place is still there,
and you're it's more likely for to happen.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Another parallel between you and my mom making people up
on email invented persona's emailing.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah, he did that.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Your responses in the g chat were so interesting because
you kind of know he's making this up, but like.

Speaker 5 (19:37):
It's a man named well, it's a it's a man
named Will correct. Is this assistant, Yes, and so you're
emailing with him as as his assistant, But you're like,
you're the fucking same person.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
Yeah, I know, I know there's time.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
I know there's this time where I'm like, you know,
I'm like, fuck you, you should go blow each other.
Like I'm so angry at I'm saying all this crass stuff.
And I also found that fascinating about my own situation.
Is that I'm calling him out on it, but then
also just kind of going along with it at the
same time. But by that time, again he could get

(20:13):
away with anything and there was nothing to call him
out on because he had framed the whole thing as
if he was deliberately putting me through this test, so
that like gave him an out for absolutely everything.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Bro the test thing, I cannot Yeah, y'all, if anyone
says they're testing you, run.

Speaker 5 (20:30):
And I also hate when people are like and he
did this to you so often, and it made me
physically ill because I hate the feeling when he'd be like,
I heard, I heard you did something bad.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
You want to tell me about it, and you're like, oh.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
My god, yeah, yeah. I mean I still have that.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
I still get panicked anytime I think I've done something
wrong or I'm you know, like constantly feel like, oh
my god, I'm gonna get in trouble or I've done
something wrong. It's it's it's a really difficult thing to
live with. I mean, I constantly was afraid I was
doing something wrong and I was going to get in trouble,
and he would be angry and I would suffer the
consequences and you're like walking on eggshells, which is probably

(21:11):
why you know, my heart rate variability is still really
high because even years later, it's like you're walking around
primarily in that heightened state of flight or flight.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Right, did you have a sense that there were other
worldly figures who were judging, like who was doing the judging?

Speaker 4 (21:41):
Well?

Speaker 3 (21:42):
He yeah, there's this character of his brother, his sort
of omnipotent brother, which she made it seem as if
his brother was everywhere at all times. So I got
this feeling like I was always being watched. And she
never quite said things explicitly, but there were all these
times where he would talk about how he could only

(22:02):
tell me something in the box, right, as if we
were going into some sort of metaphorical skiff where he
could only tell me the truth when he did something weird,
and then we would be quote in the box, as
he said it.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Like another dimension of privacy or something.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Yeah, like he did some weird sounds thing and now
all of a sudden, we're not being observed by the
higher ups.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
It's kind of like everything everywhere all at once us.

Speaker 5 (22:28):
But you know, you like do something weird and random
to like throw off the timeline and then you can
talk really quickly, you know.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
But but I haven't seen that movie, but I want
my guy.

Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yeah, but I mean the first time he did it
to my recollection, it did involve like blood.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah, he was like, I gotta, I gotta do something like.
It was a lot of effort for him to do
whatever he had to do so that we could talk
in the box and he could he could be honest
with me. So he did whatever he did. He was
in the bathroom that he came out. We had some conversation,
and then I went into the bathroom later and it
was like blood in the sink.

Speaker 5 (23:04):
So you're like, damn, the box is like kind of
hard to access. Yeah, it takes some blood.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
So much creepy stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Speaking of creepy stuff, I think one thing that is
really important to note is that he would know things
that you now have plausible explanations for, but at the
time you didn't. Can you tell us about some of that.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
He would do stuff like, you know, he would say
so and so is about to call you, so you
might want to like turn to ring around or something
like that. You know, he would say something like so
and so is about to call you.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
And then you know later that person would call.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
And what I assume now is that because he had
access to my email on his phone and I'm maybe
doing something, he's probably sitting there sees an email come
in from you know whatever, Joe Schmo saying yeah, great,
got your message. I'll call you in five minutes, and
then he would mister Fox would like quickly delete that
message so I never see it. The person calls it

(24:02):
five minutes, but he was able to say so, and
so I was going to call you a five minutes.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (24:05):
Like, I can figure out lawsible explanations for a lot
of that stuff that he did. Now, some of it
I can't necessarily, but a lot of it I could. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
At the time, he seems to have this like psychic ability,
which just lends credibility to this persona that he's yeah, presenting.

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Yeah, and every you know.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Again, towards the end, it's like he had an excuse
for everything. So even his getting fatter and fatter, he
was like, you're supposed to hate me. You're supposed to
hate me. I was supposed to be an asshole to you,
and you're supposed to be disgusted by me, and you know,
I'm tired of walking around in this fat.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
Meat suit for you. I gotta do this for you.
That was his excuse for being the bild.

Speaker 5 (24:44):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Can you talk about the information overload? This is something
I find endlessly fascinating just because we see it now
in our world.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
I mean, I think you're somebody that is trying to
keep up with politics, it's impossible. There's information overload, and
so all of these atrocities one thing after another. I mean,
if you think about like the current administration and whatever,
you think about it like just insane shit happening, and
you know, shattering.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Of norms, and.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Then the next thing happens, and then the next thing happens,
and the next scandal and the next thing, and so
nobody can keep up and you're just exhausted by it all.
And then that allows people to get away with a
lot of shit they otherwise wouldn't if we had time
to pay attention to that one thing. And so he
did a lot of that with me, and just bombarding
me with stuff all the time and keeping me in

(25:38):
used and exhausted. And you know what I understand now,
I did in the course at the time is creating
cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation because when you're
in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible, and
so it's a deliberate tactic.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
I've probably talked about this on here before, and this
is a very writtenam story. I apology, apologize, high apology, jeez.
But I was at a gas station once, and stop
me if you've heard this one more. But I was
at a gas station once and a man came up
to me and started shouting at me in another language
and then took the gas uh nozzle pump pump the

(26:18):
pump out of my hand that I had paid for
and put it into his car and was just like
shouting at me in another language. So yeah, so I froze,
and I was like oh, because at first I was
like he made it. He was making it seem like
I had done something to him, and so I was
just like stunned in this like confused state. And then

(26:41):
like it took me like ten seconds of being like hey,
and and then I like ran off, and then I
ran inside and told the gas station attendant and he
drove off without even taking it out of his car.
So obviously this is like a non tactic, but like
that thing of like I'm gonna bombard you and confuse
you and so that you don't do anything to stop me.
It just felt like it feels like a microcosm of that.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I guess.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Yeah, I mean it could be used like if you were,
you know, if somebody started to like drag you into
an alley late at night to mug you or something.
I've heard of stories where people have used it in
self defense, you know, to get away from somebody.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Oh that's smart.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
Instead of having a typical reaction of being like, oh
my god, no, what are you doing, like doing something
so out of left field and bizarre that the person
is momentarily stunned.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
Long enough for you to just bold.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
You know.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
Anyway, I don't know, it's an interesting tactic.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Oh we shouldn't practice that, yeah, because I imagine it takes
repetition to like have that be your instinct.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (27:40):
I feel like I've gotten myself out of a lot
of pickles by just genuinely having a different brain than
people expect me to be. And I'm like, why are
you wearing that shirt while they're like mugging me or something?

Speaker 2 (27:49):
And then they're like yeah and run away.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh I love it.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, it's weird.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I did write down one thing he said in the
g chat conversation because whether he intended to or not,
he literally like spelled up this tactic. Yeah, the quote
is and it's all washed and mixed with misinformation that
appears as lies and good and bad and up and
down to make it so there is no on paper choice.
It forces you to listen to your heart, not your head,
aka stop thinking because you're so confused, and just do

(28:17):
whatever I tell you.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
Yeah, that was that, like in the middle of one
of his longer rants.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
I think so.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, yeah, I just like, yeah, noticed those lines and
I was like, oh my god, he's literally telling her
what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, I know that happens very often. They do kind
of tell you what they're doing. And yeah he did.
He certainly did in that case. And I noticed in
some of those things too, where he would say read
this over and over again, you know, which is another
like drill us into your brain, which is just that
concept that you know, you repeat something long enough you Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
How did he involve your poor mother?

Speaker 4 (28:54):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, I mean he just got into her head as well.
And then can then sort of it. I was having
issues and he was taking care of me and basically
prayed on her as well and got a bunch of
money out of her, which is really got.

Speaker 4 (29:06):
Wrenching for me.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Oh what a terrible person.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's really gross. I mean, what's so icky.
On the other side of this is I was reminded
of in that conversation that you had with your mom
on this podcast where she says, and of course, I
mean what she went through was so I mean beyond heartbreaking,
but just on the other side of it, that realization.

(29:30):
I think she said, everything I'd been through, everything that
I'd lost, had been for someone's sadistic entertainment. Yeah, that
really hit me because I sort of went through that too,
just thinking.

Speaker 4 (29:42):
Like, oh my god, I've been through.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
This messed up, agonizing hell, and again what your mom
went through was like way worse. But either way, just
realizing that all of that was you know, getting them
off sadistically so to speak, And how rough that realize.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think like that idea. Facing that
idea is one of the things that keeps people on
the hook so long because the realities, the two realities
I have to choose between are one where everything's gonna
be okay, there's an end to this, it's all the

(30:21):
relief is coming, Like this was not all for nothing,
there was a purpose or this sadistic fuck just destroyed
my whole life and I alienated everyone I care about
for no reason.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
Right, and and I'm in this massive hole of debt.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
So I'm like, oh, all these people money, they're either
the way out that he keeps promising me with his
hypnotic eyes that it's true and it's coming and it's
just around the corner, or I have to face like
the most epic humiliation and guilt and shame.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
And of course that ended up being what happened.

Speaker 5 (30:59):
Yeah, he was like forcing, like how you forced quite
a mac. He was like force, like psychosis almost upon
you with just sleep deprivation.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Why can't they speak deprivation derivation?

Speaker 5 (31:13):
Just like I don't know it just it's it's heartbreaking,
and like we said, I think in the first part
of this interview, it's just so unfathomable for non sociopaths
to think sociopathically, so to think of somebody just being
like damn, she crawled out of that while I'm in
a torture again, Like let's.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
See what you were like.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
That wouldn't be fun at all, but like people like it.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, it's really it's really hard to imagine. And Mark
Vicente is coming out with a film called The Narcissists Playbook.
I think it is what the current title is going
to be. But he's coming out with a documentary about
narcissists and sociopaths. And I was able to see in
a dance copy and I'm I just like, I can't

(31:59):
wait for to come out.

Speaker 4 (32:00):
I think it's going to do so much good.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Because somehow it really lands like it's one thing to
read the Sociopathist, or you see it in fictional movies
or maybe even here some fucked up stories in the news,
or watch Bad Again or whatever. But there's something about
his film that it really kind of lands that, oh,
my god, these people exist and they're they're out there.

(32:23):
And I think that that's part of how these people
get away with what they do is because most of us,
or a lot of us, just can't even imagine that
that kind of psychology exists.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, or or people on TikTok who think everyone is
that it's one of the other or the other. Yeah, no,
but I mean I'm excited to see that we have
to have morek on. I can't believe we haven't had
them on yet. Man, I made a list of excuses
that he made.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
I'm going to be mad about these. I can already
tell I'm looking at them.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
I just I mean, I could have I could have
pulled even way more. But just to illustrate, the goalpost
moving everything is pretty much John and ready to go.
Money was moved today. I am waiting on confirmation and
should get it today or tonight. It's almost over. Prepare
for your life to change forever. Throughout the week tomorrow
we will start. It's just like over and over again,

(33:15):
like you're almost there. You're almost there.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah. And also, what he got me to do a lot,
which I think the term is like future faking. But
what he did and not like promising all these things,
is he got me to get into the headspace of
it by getting me to imagine things and asking me
to make lists of all the things I will do
as soon as the money comes in, right, And I

(33:37):
mean it's sort of like what people do nowadays, and
the whole like MANIFESTI thing right, and then even the
whole thing with that that big fancy apartment that he
said if we were going to buy, and so we're
like going through the apartment and going through the emotions.
And then even though I'm not like a diamond for
I don't care about that kind of stuff, but the
thing where he took me to the top floor of
Tiffany's and acted like he could buy anything. But yeah,

(33:58):
he would ask me to make can list, to make
lists of start to prepare for.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
All of this money coming in.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
And I'm going to be liberated now to you know,
grow the business in whatever way I want to. And
you know, I found some of those lists, the ones
that I had done in my computer, and it was
like phase one, phase two, and you know, I'm going
to buy the building that the restaurant is in and
I'm going to do this and I'm going to pay
off of this and I'm going to expand this. And

(34:26):
it was all about gruwing the business. But I think
that's a tactic, is getting you to get yourself into
that fantasy headspace. So it's like baking it in.

Speaker 5 (34:35):
Yeah you called it, h Ea, happily ever after, Yeah,
happily after hia a little acronym to just go right
two years.

Speaker 4 (34:43):
Yeah, and I think that that's there's like a name
for it.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
I know Sarah Edmondson, who also from Mexiam, has talked
about it. It's basically it's like when they have a
word it's like a thought stoper or something.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
But it's basically like.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
A terminating cliche.

Speaker 4 (34:58):
Ye, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
So like I could be making some kind of an
argument or something and he'll just say, like aga, and
it's happily ever after, And so that's going to get
me to like jolt into that space of happily ever
after whatever it is.

Speaker 4 (35:10):
But yeah, he did a lot of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
How did he weaponize concepts from the secret? Like obviously
he's making you envision your dream world without living in
the grounded reality of what's going on, But like you
describe some other ways that he used that, Yeah, like
can blame me.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
When did the Secret come out? I don't know when
when that happened, probably like.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Two thousand and three. I was a big fan.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
Oh, I guess it wasn't a long time ago. It
was less bad.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
It was more like later on he talked about the
whole parallel realities exist at the same time, which now
you hear all the time people on Instagram and whatever
talking about how there's like parallel realities and maybe that's
what that movie is about that I said I should see.
It is everything everywhere, all around. So now it's a
much more mainstream. But I realize that's how we explain things.

(36:00):
When he took me away, was like, we're just sliding
into this other reality. And another like sort of Cambolish
thing that he said was like at every moment, I
could go left or I could go right, and then
the whole trajectory of everything changes, and now I'm on
a different plane of reality and all of those other
realities exist, so so somehow we could just jump to

(36:23):
another one at any time.

Speaker 5 (36:25):
He's like giving you OCD two in a weird way,
you know, Like I don't know. That's a lot to
be processing on a daily basis as a working woman.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Yeah, And there's there's in terms of that sort of
secrety step. Something I heard in and I think it
was a podcast interview with one of the Epsteine victims,
where she talked about him sitting her down and looking
out the window at this sort of landscape nature out
I don't know, his office or one of his big
houses or something, and he had her closer eyes and
like put his hands on her shoulders and then so

(36:56):
when you open your eyes, everything's different now and it's
all going to look magical and are now entering this
other realm or something. And she said, I opened my eyes,
and she said everything looked brighter and more magical. And
that's just the power of suggestion, like super what, there's
a real thing. And he would sometimes do stuff like
that to me too, yeah, you know, and then like yeah,

(37:17):
throw in there that he could make me. He definitely
weaponized my age and the fact that that's something that
most women are very vulnerable to or you know, just
aging and getting older, and as if he would be
able to prevent me from aging.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
You know what I mean, like just all that shit.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yeah, like every possible insecurity and way that he could
get in.

Speaker 5 (37:42):
And write the promise kind of seemed like you would
be forever twenty five, your dog would be with you forever. Yeah,
And then he also seemed to weave in that he
would just fuck off and disappear, which was like a
good dream, yeah exactly, I know.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, he was smooth with that.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, because I think he figured like I think he
knew I mean again, because I wasn't in love with him.
He had to have known that I didn't want to
be with him. So therefore in the fantasy had to
be that all about me being able to grow my
business and do all this stuff with independence, and he's
kind of out of the picture.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Well, I can't believe we've already talked for this long. Okay,
I know you've had a little Yeah, so the restaurant
closed and you didn't even know about it at first?
What went through your mind?

Speaker 4 (38:36):
That was the hardest chapter to write.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
And I don't remember, like I remember the moment I
found out and absolute sort of panic and fear. And
then it's almost as if my brain shut off. And
the next memory I have is because he sent me
to Florida. And the next memory I have is being
back in New York and walk I do remember walking

(39:00):
in for the first time when it had closed, and
I think that's just the you know that, that's like
what happens psychologically, is we dissociate and forget. But somehow
I got myself on an airplane back from Florida, to
New York and then you know, again I don't remember
where did I go, which apartment was it at that time?

(39:22):
And then and then I remember walking into the restaurant.
But that was absolutely devastating. At that point, my options
were to get the restaurant back open, which felt like
this cow in the world am I going to get
this done? Or like the only other option was I
that I would have to like, I would have to

(39:43):
like kill myself because what else would I do?

Speaker 4 (39:45):
You know?

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, I mean that that was the worst part of it.
That was way worse than any of the peoping sex
stuff for anything else. That was the worst part when
that restaurant was closed, and that fear of you know,
what if I can't get it back open and what
if this is gone?

Speaker 2 (39:59):
I that's your dream, that's your life's work.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Through all of this, what he was dangling to you
was the promise that you would be able to achieve
your dreams.

Speaker 5 (40:07):
Yeah, yeah, and just yeah. I mean, as we enter
this kind of third act of the story, it's like,
not only has the isolated you common tactic, but another
common tactic that I didn't really think about but I've
been researching, is just taking people out of their environment,
and he took you away from your apartment and your

(40:28):
home and your safe space, and he just starts moving
you around the freaking world. Like yeah, Carmen san Diego,
You're bouncing around, and I cannot fathom how untethered you
must have felt.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
How it's just it's terrifying.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Even right now, I get really upset by I mean,
it's not like I don't travel anywhere these days, but
even just recently, somebody wanted somebody wanted me to, you know,
like change some appointments and go to this thing that
i'd have to take any track to just for the day.
And I got so upset just the idea of it.

(41:06):
For anybody else, it would be like, why is that
such a big deal if he cares and you go,
or you don't there so you got to change some appointments,
Like well, it's a big deal. It's just a one
day trip. But I got really upset by it because
it just reminded me of being back in that place
where at any time, you know, I mean, he did
this to me all the time, like a total change

(41:26):
of plan. I mean the way he made me pack
up that apartment and then I had to unpack it
and then pack it all again and then unpack it,
and like I never knew where I was going to
be and for how long?

Speaker 4 (41:36):
And then you'd have me fly here and go there.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
And it's probably no wonder that I get crazy about traveling.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Totally makes sense. Yeah, again, just recap for someone who
maybe doesn't know the story. Like this whole time, you
are essentially like using your contacts to borrow money to
take money out of the business. You're like yelling at
him and saying you don't want to do it, and
like begging him to not make you do it. But

(42:04):
it's just like over and over again, these like transfers,
these transfers, these transfers. How did the arrest finally happen?
What led to the arrest?

Speaker 3 (42:14):
Well, I mean what's strange is that the money that
I got from investors, what ended up happening is that
I was able to reopen the restaurant, right, which you know,
I should be proud of myself for that.

Speaker 5 (42:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
That was quite good.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
That was amazing.

Speaker 4 (42:27):
Actually, I was able to.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Get the restaurant back open, and you know, that's that's
probably a really hard part for people to read in
the story, because then, of course, you know, he takes
me away again. But what's weird is that what I
was prosecuted for was mostly the money that I got
from investors, which the vast majority of it it went
to reopen the restaurant. It went to pay the back
rents and vendors and employees and all that stuff. So

(42:50):
it didn't really make sense that I was being charged
for defrauding investors because that money went into the reopened
the restaurant. It's just that he then took me away
again and I disappeared right on the other side of this.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
How do you.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Explain this insanely complicated, messed up situation, you know, to
a prosecutor. And I still naively thought that once they
started link at it, they'd see that he's clearly a
criminal con artist and I lost everything, and so why
would they continue charging me as aggressively as they did.
But what ended up happening is it took me away

(43:23):
and we were driving across the country and that's when
he gave me that sort of story about parallel realities.
But by then I was completely I mean, the association
was poor and poor at that point, Like I really
was kind of behaving as a robotic child in a way.
And there's so much that I don't remember from that trip,
but he just sort of convinced me that, yeah, like

(43:44):
we're in like a parallel reality and you know, you'll
get it all back, it'll all be fine. And on
this insane road trip from hell all over the country,
at one point we end up in digon Borge, Tennessee,
which is among the stranger towns can even possibly imagine.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
It sounds sounds so crazy.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
Yeah, it's such a strange place.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
And one of the things I'll never know for sure
is I really feel like he got us arrested on purpose,
and we're going to be arrested, and for some reason,
maybe he thought that the way it was going to
play out would be different. I don't I don't really know,
But anyway, we were arrested, and then I was extracited
back to New York and handcuffs and in various jails

(44:29):
in first and Tennessee Dale in that small town, and then.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
Being extradited to writers in New York. Wise time writers too.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
He deleted all of your emails, your email exchanges, except
for one in which he tries to pin it all
on you.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Yeah. Yeah, so it makes sense.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
To me that he thinks that that would be a
useful move for him, because he didn't think about booking
g chat. Also, you do talk about this in the book,
and we've talked about this here as well. Of course,
can had yet to enter the mainstream as a concept,
and it still has yet to truly like penetrate the
legal system in America, which sucks. Yeah, but can you

(45:10):
just briefly describe your jail experience and like sort of
the deprogramming that happened over time.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Yeah, there was never like a wake up moment, you know,
And of course I'm also in the middle of those
very strange experience of being arrested and in jail, and
you no, I've been for the most part, was such
a one of those people that never got in trouble.
So the idea that I would be in jail was
just and that's sort of traumatic in its own way.

(45:41):
So there's never like a wake up moment. It was
just this gradual, like layers of realizing that, oh my god, nightmare,
like the worst, the worst, worst, worst case scenario is
now coming true, and now this is the reality that
I have to face, and I don't know how to
explain it, and what we talked about before where that

(46:04):
weird paradox of there being something comforting about him being
around because he's the only one that knows what he's
putting me through, so he's the only one who can
get me out. And now all of a sudden, it's
just me and I'm having to face everybody alone, and
I don't know how to explain it. I don't know
what to say. I mean, it was absolutely brutal, that
part of it. And then yeah, I was at Wrikers

(46:27):
for I think about a week, and then I got
out on bail. But I just naively thought that surely
the prosecutor, once they look into this, will realize that
they might not understand what happened. But like, I'm a
good person. I've always been a law abiding, good person.
I never intended to do anything wrong. And I lost
as much as other people lost money and their jobs

(46:49):
and stuff, and that was all heartbreaking and I feel responsible.

Speaker 4 (46:53):
And all the shame for all of that happening.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
But at the same time, logically I lost more than
everybody and it's not like I was arrested with bags
of other people's money trying to board a playing in Mexico. Right.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
I was just sitting there in this.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Hotel in Tennessee. And the detective who arrested me, who
I write about a lot in the book. He's such
a great character. He'd be such a great character like
in a film.

Speaker 4 (47:16):
His name was Ray.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Brown, and he knew like what he saw, he saw
mister Fox, he saw me, and he very quickly understood, Okay,
I get what's going on here. This is a certain
type of a con artist, which she'd probably encountered in
his long career of dealing with messed up people as
as a detector. And she's clearly, you know, the zoned out,

(47:39):
traumatized victim of his. So he got it, he really
understood it. But the prosecutor was a totally different story.
And so I ended up being prosecuted and then getting
sentenced to go back to write there for four months.

Speaker 5 (47:52):
I mean, I think we always talk on the show
about like when did your shelf break or when did
you like really realize this was a con. But it
was one of the first things in the book, and
it just struck me as like damn, Like even when
you were in the first jail in Tennessee. You're like,
maybe these are all actors, Like they're really good actors.
They're like you're in such a state of cognitive despair

(48:14):
that you're like, is this just a set and like
my final test?

Speaker 2 (48:17):
And yeah, that's just wild that.

Speaker 5 (48:20):
Your brain is still trying to cling on to some
sort of like this must be real, this must be real,
this must be real. And then that process of like
slowly being like, God, it's it's not I know, I.

Speaker 4 (48:30):
Know, I mean, that's exactly what. How is this?

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Maybe some people are going to show up and whisk
me out of here and it's all going to be okay.
But then that like little lifeline that I'm trying to
hang onto is like it's thinner and thinner and thinner,
and then eventually, you know, eventually I just have to
accept the actual reality of what had happened.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
I was very upset to find that he is not
in jail and wasn't really for very long.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
No, he got out before because he stayed in jail,
he was never bailed out. So even though I got
a four month sentence, he was only spends to AYR
and he'd already completed that, so he was out and
free before I had to go back in, and so
I'm going in to be locked up while he's out
bringing and I'm I am now having to go in
for four months. But the reality is that that four

(49:20):
months wasn't really the worst punishment. The worst punishment was
just the overall destruction of everything. Like I would go
to jail for whatever if you told me I could
have it all back and just repair everything and rebuild
the restaurant and whatever.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
Like the jail in comparison, no big deal.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
But it was having to come out the other on
the other side of the whole thing, and you know,
feeling like because of course I'm I'm not a sis here,
Like I feel like it's all my fault, and I
feel like all this destruction and all the pain that
was caused to other people is my fault because I
let this monster in my life, but it happened through me,

(49:56):
and it.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
Feels like it's my fault.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
And then on top of that, the whole story doesn't
even make sense to people, so they don't understand what happened.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
And so, yeah, it's been a lot on the other
side of it.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
So what has your rebuilding process looked like I already
wanted to write another book, but the story keeps getting
more and more interesting because I moved back here to reopen,
and yeah, I was brought back here to reopen, and
then there was all this stuff that was misleading.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
About it, and then they didn't pay me, and then
they put me in a comprolizing situation, and then they
demanded that I do X y Z that I never
said I would do, and then friends like, okay, then
there's no.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
Restaurant and screw you. You're on your own. And by
the way, now you're in waiting more debt.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
So yeah, the story continues.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
And then in the middle of all this, publishing my memoir,
which I had thought I was going to be publishing
at the same time as a big restaurant relaunching and reopening,
and like it was going to be this epic comeback.
You know, it can still happen, but I'm I'm in
the thick of it right now, and so it's been
really strange. I'm happy that the book is out, and
I'm happy to talk about it and I'm happy to

(51:04):
promote it, but I also I chose the option of
publishing it independently, which is basically like self publishing, because
it was so important to me to maintain control.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
Of the story.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
And you know, one of the things we didn't talk about,
which is fine because I've talked about it so much
on other podcasts that I feel like I'm like, I
sound like I'm a whiny complainer and for me. But
the Netflix show Bad Vegan like totally turned my story
around and did it in this very messed up way
where some people see it to what it was some
people didn't. But they also were supposed to put into

(51:36):
that show that I was only paid an amount of
money that was equal to what my employees were owned,
because that's what I wanted, and I so badly wanted
my employees to be repaid. So I got seventy five grand.
All of that went to repay my employees. They were
made whole. I got nothing more but the Fox who
made that show and manipulated it so that all these
people watch it and think that like there's a twisty ending,

(51:58):
and I was in on it all along, and I'm
like a criminal, like Anadeli con artist myself.

Speaker 5 (52:03):
God, I watched that show and came away thinking you
were awesome and great.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
So I don't know what.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
No, I appreciate that, but that's because that's because of
the lens that you're right, which you're watching it, right,
I'm telling you an enormous amount of people and not
like don't came away thinking, oh, yeah, that's the twisty
ending she's laughing with him on the phone at the
end of the show. She was, and they moved my
words around to change what I said to him, right,

(52:29):
And and those people who did that made millions of
dollars from and I know that for a fact because
I know the numbers.

Speaker 4 (52:35):
I know what they made.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
And that's and I And now it's like I'm trying
to you know, I'm trying to like keep my shit together,
and I have to pay my rent on credit cards
and I'm in debt, and so it's it's hard to
talk about because I don't want to wallow in that
victim energy. Like it's just a tough thing to navigate
because it's hard not to be angry or to want

(52:59):
to explain that and then at the same time not
want to, you know, to kind of want to move
past that and just put the past in the past
and focus on myself.

Speaker 4 (53:08):
But yeah, it's tough.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
You got to talk to my mom because she did
have an experience. It wasn't as big of a show
as Bad Vegan, but she did have an experience with
a TV show that painted her as someone who's just
like doing it because she wanted to be with this
guy and all that, you know.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
Like, oh my god, that's so.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
I mean after hearing that podcast just this morning, I
listening to the one you did with your mom. That
was heartbreaking to listen to, and yeah, it's sickening. And
then I remember, I think Steve Pawson told me that.
I think we said that that's why you want to
ask to be in touch.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
That's why she got her PhD and did her dissertation
on the Traumatic impact of media misrepresentation, I think is
what it's. Yes, yeah, two things come up for me.

Speaker 5 (53:50):
Number one, how dangerous it is to be a beautiful
woman who is doing something super good in the world
because people want to hate and they want to be
like the vegan ordered pizza and cheese.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
And loon blah blah blah blah blah. So I stand
with that.

Speaker 5 (54:07):
And the number two, like, while acknowledging the very deep
despair that is the current moment. Like this book and
this story is the perfect concoction to help so many
people because there's just no if ans and butts around it.
You are smart, period, You are like a good person, period,

(54:29):
and this horrifying thing happened to you that I'm like,
this is going to be a staple of helping so
many people get out truly totally.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
I mean, it means so much to me when people
are reading my book and they dm me that they
feel less alone, they feel less stupid, or that it's
really helped them understand their own situation. The reader that
will I hope be the most impacted if they could
get in their hands, is I just wish a lot
of young people would read it, you know, maybe young

(55:01):
women who would identify with some of the things that
you know, characterize my early life, or I would hope
that it would get read by young people who haven't
been through something like this, so that it really sinks
in and if they encounter somebody like this, they'll think, huh,
this kind of reminds me of that story and then go,
now I have this awareness to look for red flags

(55:24):
and just avoid the situation because.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
You know, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
I would think that if I had read a story
like mine, that when he started throwing some of these
things at me, I might have thought, yeah, this kind
of sounds like yeah, yeah, that means a lot to
me that it could help people and also help all
the psychologists to study this kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
That's like, look, here's all of his words.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
Here's not all of it, but here's a lot of
his words and are back and forth, and I really
lay out as much as I could his tactics.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Yeah, it is so amazing, and so to read his
exact words, I mean, the whole time, I'm just like
wanting to throw a book across the room because I'm like,
fuck this guy, you know, but he's like he is gaslighting,
he is manipulating, he is doing everything, and it's all
right there. And I do think that's really useful because

(56:17):
we hear these stories a lot of the time, and
we don't get to see what they're actually literally saying
in real time so often. So I think it's yeah,
really kind of a treasure trove.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
And that's part of why I published it, you know,
independently self publishes, because I just couldn't bear to have
a publisher control of my story. After what happened with
Bad Vegan Butt Show on Netflix, I couldn't bear to
have somebody take control of the story and manipulate it
or control it totally.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
If you had to look for a gem of positivity
or like useful lessons and all of the shit that
you waded through, I mean, what would those be?

Speaker 3 (57:00):
You know? In my story? Like I think I say
this in the very beginning. You know, nobody died. What
was lost is theoretically recoverable. I thought I was in
the process of recovering it and being able to get the.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
Restaurant in the business and the brand back. That still
could happen.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
I just wouldn't need the right partnership and the right people, because,
as you imagine, I am left with a lot of
trust issues. I think somehow it broke me open in
a way that if I imagine if I had just gone
forth and unlucky dock blew up, I probably would have
added some kind of a crash.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
It's kind of like almost like people go through life
and end up having some kind of a crisis that
brings you to a place where you're forced to do
a lot of self reflection and come to terms with
healing all your family sounds calling, but healing all your
childhood and really examining it all and becoming an extremely

(57:54):
self aware person. And weirdly enough, you know, mister Fox
kept referring to when you wake up, this will all
make sense, or when you wake up, you don't care
about what people think anymore when you wake up. And
what's weird is I feel like I've had id of
awaken right.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Just not in the way that you were expecting.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Yeah, it would have been a lot nicer to you know,
maybe have just gotten really overworked and then done like
the eat Prey Love version of it, you know, go
to Bali and meditate for love.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Yeah, not be bombarded.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
That would have been a much nicer awakening and the
way that it happened. But speaking of Elizabeth Gilbert, I,
you know, I'm fascinated by I've listened to all her
podcasts learning her new book. And it's funny because she
talks about Earth School and you know, our souls coming
here to learn lessons, and I think about that, and
I'm like, and then and then my head starts to

(58:47):
go into a tripping place because you know it then
would mean that some of the things that you said
were potentially true, but he knows.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (58:55):
I think we talked on an episode we did with Anne,
one of our former guests, where she was just like
and now I can't think about any of that that
she was like and now I just have to live
in the boring none of that. But yeah, I'm prone
to thinking that way as well.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
So yeah, I mean colts will weaponize your you know,
if you have an inclination towards I don't know, any
kind of a spiritual spirituality or spiritual life, they'll weaponize that.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
But then it becomes hard to figure out wearing land
on the other side of it, because so much of
that now is associated with them and the things that
they've said, and so you know, you want to reject
it completely. It's kind of like somebody who might have
been abused in a church or whatever. They're going to
completely reject that religion and they don't want anything.

Speaker 4 (59:40):
To do with it.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
So it's a similar thing if somebody's kind of weaponized spirituality. Now,
how didn't get back to it in a place where
you feel comfortable?

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Yeah, but it is true that when we hit a
rock bottom. It can be the doorway into absolutely a
new level of self awareness and new level of empathy
and connection with other people that we wouldn't have maybe
accessed before. But it doesn't mean it was worth it.

Speaker 5 (01:00:08):
But a gorgeous a gorgeous book that will change lives.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Yeah, for sure. Tell us the name again and where
they can find it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
The name of the book is The Girl with the
Duck Tattoo, and it is because of the way I published.
It's not like it's not like you can find it
in every bookstore. But you can get a signed copy
from me, which is the amazing option. You can also
get it directly from the printer, which is another good
option that bypasses Amazon and is a better I'm just

(01:00:36):
being like full disclosure, but a much better margin for me.
Its the same price as Amazon. And you can also
just get it from Amazon, and then you can also
get the kindle version on Amazon, which is the most
affordable way to get it. And all of those links
are I made a website for the book, just the
Girl with the Duck Tattoo dot com that has all
of those links, and also I put by chapter photos.

(01:01:00):
There's tons of photos that you can look at that
are listed by chapter.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Well, I'm going to go look at those me too.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
My Instagram is where I'm communicate with people most and
that's just my full name at Instagram. I'm pretty easy
to find that and all those links are on Instagram.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Too, amazing. Thank you so much for talking to us
for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Yeah really, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
No, I'm I mean, I'm happy to do it, and
this is fine. I did a podcast few weeks ago
that was six hours.

Speaker 5 (01:01:27):
So that's honestly how long I wanted to know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
But yeah, yeah, well this is very different because you
guys read the book and I can't tell you how
much I appreciate that. It's a much much richer conversation
because of that, and also, you know, your personal experiences
means that you understand it and it's a much richer discussion.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Oh hey, well I loved it. Everybody, go buy the book.

Speaker 5 (01:01:51):
Thank you so much, Thank you Sarma for that incredible conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Yeah, so last week, Lola, you asked me if I
would join this cults.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
I did, and you would, but you can't because you
don't have enough money. I can't afford that, and I
also do not have enough money otherwise I'd be on it.

Speaker 5 (01:02:09):
I did think that there was an interesting takeaway, which
is that people have this misconception that somebody can be
so smart that this would never happen to them.

Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
And she went to Wharton, she worked on Wall Street.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
If you read her book, she was one of the
most effective people at like every job she did.

Speaker 5 (01:02:31):
Basically working at all the big banks. She's running up
the ranks like she's a genius.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
And creates this amazing restaurant Like yeah, truly, and we
see it all the time. So many of our guests
are so highly educated, so thoughtful, so just incredibly intelligent.
It doesn't matter if you get the right person who
knows the right tactics to break down your defenses, to
break down your critical thinking, yep, to overwhelm your time,
to confuse you, you know, like, and.

Speaker 5 (01:02:57):
Then opt to ikers you go, oh man, Yeah, it's
scary stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
It really is. But I am so glad that that
chapter of her life is over.

Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
Me too.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
I can't wait to be eating her ice cream someday.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
I know, if there are any like money people listening
who are not scammers, please invest in her new restaurant.

Speaker 5 (01:03:18):
I want to eat there. Read the book and maybe
let's do it in La.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Yeah, yeah, because I can't find in New York. I
can't afford that right now. No, we can't, We can't
go there. As al is, thank you so much for
listening to another week of Trust Me. Make sure to
leave us a review we love a review with five
stars stars.

Speaker 5 (01:03:39):
And remember to follow your gut, watch out for radflax.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
And never ever trust me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted by
me Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer
is Gee Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Speaker 5 (01:03:57):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberla, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kottner.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 5 (01:04:05):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark
and Danielle Kramer.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:04:15):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts,