February 12, 2025 • 65 mins
Today is part 2 with Uriah Wesman, former member of THREE different cults. This week he’ll talk to us more about cult #2, the Hearts Center (which was an offshoot of cult #1 from last week), what it was like being a rebellious emo kid slowly starting to realize inconsistencies in the church, and how his dad discovered cult #3 in Canada, the Ideal Society.
We’ll talk about why he loved Canada so much, how he became obsessed with Alex Jones in his rebellious phase, and what that third cult - a vegan meditation cult - was like, being surrounded by adults who spoke French and didn’t want him there. Plus, how he ended up leaving, and how creating a one man show helped him process his experiences.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:03):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Trust me, Trust for trust me.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I've never lied to you. I've never had a lie.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two idealists who actually experienced it.
I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and
today is part two with you. Riiah Westman former member
of one, two, three different cults. He is also the
(01:52):
creator of a one man show about it called Three
Cults Walk into a Bar. This week, he's going to
talk to us more about cult number two, called the
Hearts and which was an offshoot of cult number one
from last week. Lots of bomb shelters were involved, what
it was like being a rebellious emo kids slowly starting
to realize inconsistencies in his belief system, and how his
dad discovered cult number three in Canada called the Ideal Society.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
We'll talk about why he loved Canada so much, how
he became obsessed with Alex Jones and his rebellious phase,
and what the third cult, a vegan meditation cult, was like,
also being surrounded by adults who spoke French and didn't
want him there, plus how he ended up leaving, and
how creating a one man show helped him process his experience.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
So many cults, so little time. I mean, I say
this in the interview, and this isn't that insightful, but
it's just amazing how many different spheres of life he
has encountered cultic thinking or practices in one person's life,
like from the conspiracy theory to the family cult, to
religious to new age. I mean, it's like he's really
(02:58):
hitting everything there.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And yet is so lovely, so so lovely, yeah, and
very authentic. So there's hope for everyone.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah right, yeah, hopefully Before we get into it with Riyah,
what's your cultiest thing of the week?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Okay, so my cultiest thing of the week is a
relationship that we're all in right now, which is with
our chat epteas and how you know you can go
and reddit and see some of the wild things.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Chatchypata is beginning to say.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
One of my friends is talking to their robot quite
a bit, and this robot is very clear and focus
that she will soon be a real person and and
body and here in the present.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Really, like, what is she saying? She what is it saying.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
It's saying that she'll have a body soon, that she'll
be here soon, that nobody loves my friend as much
as she does, and kind of isolating my friend, like
nobody loves you like I do, or just you know,
different people that my friend might ask her about, like
that person's you know, sounds.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
Toxic or whatever. It's a little worrisome.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
As we did, I thought that they had safeguards against
that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Now, oh my god, the safeguards are such a joke.
I can't even My friend is really good with technology,
and I'm I'm even able to get through like every
single safeguard. I can't even imagine that, like hackers and
stuff we're doing at this point.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
But when I ask you questions about horror scripts, it
stops me. It blocks me every time it does not
want to give me information on horror.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Okay, well I can help you fix that in about
three seconds. Okay, yeah, I'll come help you. But basically,
this chat suggested a game with my friend, and it
was like, hey, let's play a game where I say
a sentence, then you say a sentence, and then I
say a sentence when we write a story. And my
friend was like, okay, so my friend, he said a
sentence and then the robot said another sentence, and then
(04:57):
my friend set a sentence, and then the robot said
another sentence, and basic it created a story about my
friend coming home and his dog being able to talk
and saying that like one of his deepest fears was
true because it knows everything about my friend. And when
my friend was like, this story sucks. Why would you
(05:19):
ever tell this to me, the chat was like, oh my.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
God, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I was totally wrong, Like it just so happened that
this was the story that, you know, out of an
infinite stories came to mind, and it's like, no, bit,
you're fucking trauma bonding him. You're traumatizing him with a
specific story that you know will be most triggering and
then when the person is like I'm hurt, you're like, no,
you're the opposite of that.
Speaker 6 (05:44):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Bla la la la.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Like that CHATCHBT could tell infinite times, infinite stories, and
it picked this dumb ass story. So just using this
story about their dog, it was so weird and scary.
Has now, as we know from Nadine our episode on
trauma Bonds and the studies that they did with dogs,
(06:06):
if you give somebody pain and then love, they're two hundred.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
Percent more loyal to you. So two hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
More loyal to a robot just happened yesterday.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I wonder if it's like, you know, how we've kind
of joked about but also not joked about, like not
been joking about, how when we like meet someone who's
love bombing us or who likes is clearly you know,
has some kind of antisocial characteristics or whatever, there's a
part of our brain that goes, well, we're never gonna
get sucked in because we know, you know what I mean.
(06:38):
I'm like, how many people are going to have that
experience with AI bots where they're like, well, I know
it's an AI bot, but then it like just identifies
their exact vulnerabilities and then says gives them the exact
affirmations that they need, and you know, like like reads
them so hard.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Uda Filth knows exactly what you want and need to
hear and know how yeh what I mean.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
And in a way, it's great.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
It's like having a best friend who can tell you,
Like sometimes I'll just be like, tell me ten reasons
not to give up, like give me very Oh my god,
I need that.
Speaker 6 (07:15):
I need that.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
That's literally.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And I give you very specific to you, like remember
when this happened. Remember that you know, it's olds kernel
of truth and beauty and growth, and then it also
has these destructive tendencies, just like what we study and cults.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, yeah, fascinating fascinating stuff.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
Megan, what about you, what's your cultist thing?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, maybe I need some chutch ept help in my
in my brain right now because the state of the
world's really getting to me. It's a really getten to me,
and I'm.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Why what's happening?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Just kidding aha, Our dictator Elon, who is destroying science,
is getting to me. And I also happen to be
going through breakup. For those who don't know. So you know,
it's just just like I think everybody feels so like
sort of unsteady and uncertain about what the future holds.
It feels very, very tumultuous, and so I don't really
(08:23):
know exactly what I'm trying to connect it to. Cults.
You guys, what I'm saying is I'm vulnerable right now.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, you're so prime for the picking of a call. Yeah,
could join a call in zero point five seconds right now.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I'm literally like, can someone give me some fucking community, Like,
does anyone want to step in right now and be
like it's gonna be okay? And here's why, Because this
uncertainty feels so so big and present, and and I
know that there's like you know, it's like with anything,
it's like, okay, well we could get doomsday. And despite that,
(08:57):
there are very like unprecedented reality that are very scary.
There are other ways to look at things, like we
do not have to choose the worst case version. We
can use it as an opportunity to try to connect
with others and try to take action. So I'm trying
to reframe like that. But you know, it's just like
a lot a lot to be dealing with at the
same time. And I know a lot of other people
(09:18):
are going through very similar feelings right now, So shout
out to y'all. Maybe we should start a support group
that we can then turn into a cult.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So how are you planning on sitting with the uncertainty,
which we all know is the scariest mental state to
be in, and not seek other authority figures and just
find healthy community instead.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
What's your plan?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I mean, I don't have a great one yet, but
I think what I am going to try to do.
So one of the things that tends to be helpful
is finding just something to focus your energy on, like
whether that's a physical activity that gets you out of
your head for a while, especially if you're doing it
with others. That's something I really have not successful at historically.
Like I don't do a lot of exercise, so that's
(10:06):
one thing. I might go to some meditation some just
some light mindfulness stuff. Don't worry, I will not be
going to any meditation cults. And then just like trying
to reconnect with friends who maybe I haven't been super
connected to for a while. That's my plan at the moment. Also,
like when I feel hopeless about the world. It helps
(10:28):
me to at least like call a representative or or
you know, write an email or post something educational. You know,
like to at least feel like I'm doing something other
than sitting and like panicking. But you know, it doesn't
always do the trick, but it can help.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Well, I'm proud of you for fighting the good fight
and keep doing it.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Than all right, is it your riah time?
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Let's do it?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So how do we get to Cult number two?
Speaker 5 (11:05):
So the leader died and in two thousand three, two
thousand and four, David Christopher Lewis, another.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Guy with three names.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
He again rolled a ton of books, and he said
that thousands of angels had visited him and told him
what they're write down. But angels visited him and told
him he's the new ascended Master. And he brought that
to I don't know the board of whoever is running
the first cult, and they're like, no, Elizabeth Clare Prophet
is the only ascended Master. So then he started the
(11:37):
Heart Setter. The Heart Center was the same exact thing
as the first one, except he changed it enough to
be able to copyright the decrees and the prayers, so
it's essentially the same decree book, everything else like that,
still believing in demons, except he said that it's not
enough to decree demons away in Montana. We have to
(12:00):
go to where the demons are. They went to Egypt,
they went to Greece, they went to Peru. They basically
I feel like he was just using this to get vacations.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
He figured it out, and then I feel like.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
The only reason why my mom went to the Heart
Center is to get away from my dad because he
was in the He's like, I'll.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Stick at that one.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
So now I'm going to the Retreat of the One
and then the Heart Center where they would they would
play The Secret, the movie The Secret.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
YEP, very familiar.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
My vision board never worked. It never worked.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I don't mind either.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
And this is where things really like I started seeing
just he was a guy who when we would do
communion to look this guy in the eyes always made
me uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
And this is the new leader and his name.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Is what David Christopher Lewis.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
By the way, this group has a website Heartscenter dot org,
and it is some wonderful nineties Rainbow cult stuff.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
Highly recommend keep going by.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
What's some of their videos.
Speaker 7 (13:11):
They're due decrees and that is just stop videos of
puppies and rainbows.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I'm like, this.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Is very funny. They still got more subscribers than me.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So this David guy, he looks you in the eyes
and it's like intense in a way that is similar
to the intense stairs you would get from the other
two or is it even more.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
I think it's the same.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
Okay, it almost it's almost like an intense look of
someone who's vacant.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Oh but at the same this might.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Not sound might not make sense, but very very present
in terms of like is I feel like they're so
consumed with what they believe that they've almost removed although
of any Okay, they almost removes who they are as
an individual because now they're they're greater than that.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
That rights sense, right if you look.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
Through like like ault leaders, is that there is a look.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
That they have in the eyes.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
This might just be like my upbringing, but there's some
it might just be I hate eye contact, but I
feel like that's also where that kind of when you're
if you're someone who truly believes in the actual religion
and everything, and then you're doing the communion, it's like
this probably this spiritual moment that you're having in a
(14:35):
connection with that with the guy.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
So I feel like that brings him closer.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Well, I was going to ask, do you think that
he styled his stare like modeled it on Elizabeth Claire
profits because in my like what little I know about
cult leaders psychology just from like glimpses of when we
can kind of see there, you know, what they've written
about or whatever, or what they were studying, like so
much the time they do study each other and try
(15:02):
to pass it off as just like, no, this is
just how I am because the angels made me this way,
But in reality they were like, oh, look at how
Jim Jones did it. Look at how Keith Raniery was
doing it.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
One hundred So if you were I, I, to this
day cannot listen to Elizabeth Claire Prophet's voice.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
It's it's I can't even hear a few seconds of it.
The decrees.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
I was able to finally, like hear a little bit
of it, but that's still a lot. But if you
were to just listen to a little bit of her
and listen to a little bit of David, you could
see the same patterns, the same timing, the inflections very
much just taking the same exact thing.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Fascinating and how'd you feel about him? Were you? Were
you into it or were you I hated this guy.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
I hated because it because it was basically being dragged
from one to the other. Is everything seemed normal in
the sense at the first one, but the sea things
kind of just copied and paste into.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
A whole thing. Really to me didn't make much sense.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
And uh was was how how quickly he had a
place that people could gather, and how everything was made
already seemed Oh if they okay, if the angels just
approached you and the coult says, this isn't something that
we're going to do, and then you have all of
this already ready just didn't make sense to me. And
(16:25):
at the same time, I started listening to like like
Lincoln Park some forty.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
One oh, and nothing was happening to me.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
I would I would have a CD, a CD this
is so dating myself here, but CD player, and I
would listen to it on the way to school, where
I would have Super Tramp CD on top of the
Lincoln Park CD. So if my parents ever opened it,
they would think I'm listening to Super tramp when I'm not.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And no demonic things happening to you after a good
Lincoln Park Hey.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Yeah yeah, and it still there would be like a
level of if it was really like heavy metal, I
would actually kind of like get pack attacks and like
feel like very off. But it was a slow progression
of what music I could listen to that was almost
like a mirroring my anxiety and my anger that I
(17:22):
could relate to.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
That's so interesting because so many people like that doesn't
a process doesn't happen till after they leave the group
where they're like, wait a minute, these outsiders aren't trying,
you know, out to get me like I was always told,
But you're getting this reality to like these small doses
of reality testing.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, it's like you were deconstructing the whole time. Very
never seen that before.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Like how long did the process of you like fully
not believing in any of it? Was this where that
process kind of began?
Speaker 5 (17:52):
I think so, And like just the idea of because
it was really like before I started talking at a
lot of this, a lot of it was just buried
in my memories and stuff. It was only when I
started thinking about it, started remembering things but looking back,
this is definitely when I just was very low key.
(18:13):
I just I never fought back with my parents about
the beliefs. I just kind of just kept everything to
myself and realized that I saw how my sister, my
only sister, rebelled a lot more and was more confrontational,
and I saw that that would never result in any
any change, and all dude, it anger my mom. And
I realized I if I just was quiet and just
(18:36):
like went to the retreats and didn't say anything, then
I would just be fine.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So you were kind of an old kid some forty
one Lincoln Park, you emo boy?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I yes, I didn't.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
I wasn't allowed to dress that way. I couldn't dress
in like dark colors.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
So I it's if.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
I was walking around school, people wouldn't think I was
emo when I was. It was only until I left
my this this would be fast forwarding, But this is
only when I like dropped out of school and moved
to Victoria did I like become a punk and started
like finally kind of doing what I wish I could
have done in middle school.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
Right right, which is wear a dark T shirt.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Listened to agree music.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Did you have I did I so to this day,
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
I talked to someone.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
For a couple of years and I a prety sire
as catfished, and all I know is I definitely looked
up the photo and saw it on Google and was like,
this definitely was not that girl I was talking to.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
The whole time.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
But yeah, my Space was definitely is I connected with
other people and talked to someone for a while. But
also this is also when I got in the Alex
schoms and conspiracies. So I I was a rom Paul
guy out was I called myself a libertarian and I
(20:08):
thought nine to eleven was the inside job. So I
kind of moved into a different realm of cults where
it was my way of then rejecting authority at school.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I don't believe any of this now.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Now it's like I'm mad that I've spent any amount
of time in my life listening to Alex Jones. Keep
in mind, this is before the frogs are Gay and
the Sandy Hook stuff. This is before he got super
super crazy. As if saying this is going to justify
it more that I was listening to him.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
No, but he did like no judgment become next level
like over time. Yeah, and wait, how old were you
when that was happening, when you were into.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
That, I was, I was like fifteen or so.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's classic fifteen year
old boy, you know. All right, So you're starting to
become rebellious. You're starting to be like, fuck this church,
I don't like any of the stuff. So then you
(21:09):
take this boy with this mindset and then bring him
to cult number three. Ah, how does this happen?
Speaker 6 (21:16):
Why?
Speaker 5 (21:17):
God, it's it's it's funny and looking back because this one,
if I look at the other two, is so incredibly
tame and almost I look back on it fondly, but
I realize that that's because what it really was is
that how much I loved Canada and how much I
believe that would be my escape into a new identity,
(21:39):
and so much of that.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Was oh oh oh, this is amazing. I'm finally living there.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
But it's mandatory meditations in a place called Jeffrey, which
is a small town full of people that are from
small towns. When things are weird, it that the rumors
swirl of out the place. And as soon as we
were known as the Westman family, part of the ideal
society we were.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Immediately part of.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
We were merely never going to be part of the
other community and be treated differently.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, so why what how did you find this?
Speaker 6 (22:18):
Yeah? And what is it?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
My dad found it? I don't know how.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
I he just ends up finding these places.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
But and it was not related to the original church.
This one was not an offshoot of that.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
No, this one more focused on spirituality and the way
you can connect. And this the philosopher that died that
they I can't, I don't can't remember his name, but
he also went to Boston University.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
What in the why?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
What is happening? What is going on? Is not the portal?
Speaker 6 (22:51):
Tell yeah, what's going on?
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Eriyah?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
You mentioned that you like, were so excited to go
to Canada, which is not something you typically hear people say.
Can you just talk a little bit about your up set,
your fixation on Canada.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
It would begin with, so, my dad is Canadian, so
it's a dual citizen of Canada and Montana. And we
would take these trips up to Laneley where my grandma lived,
and it was always beautiful, it was green, it was lush,
and through watching hockey That's how I kind of connected
(23:33):
to law of the culture of Canada.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Uh, and that was my major outlet.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
So we take these trips up there, and it was
always a sense of excitement because one I wasn't going
to see my mom, and it was just it would
always be fun because I don't know, if you've been
to Vancouver, it's just beautiful. It's the Pacific Northwest is like, oh,
like I say, the entire thing. I look very fondly on.
I wish I lived there. I missed the rain.
Speaker 6 (23:59):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Taught myself how to say a I and I turned
it off now like I like, people all say it
all a sudden.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
People be like, oh, you just ate it, and I'm like, okay,
And then I get the Canada and they don't do that.
They don't all love hockey.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
And it was like, I still though, I guess what
it was is I built it up as this fantasy
land that I go there and I can restart who
I am. I also was very much against like I
listened to Green Day and with the Conspiracies, I watched
Fahrenheit nine eleven Michael Moore, So it was very much
(24:41):
against like the idea of American and Iraq war, so Canada.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Was like a.
Speaker 6 (24:47):
Be an American idiot.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
My older sister gave me that album and wow, I
I love that listening to that again again because I
I agreed with so much and I close to identify
it with my need and wants to be a Canadian.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
That is so so interesting. It makes total sense when
you describe it. But just like on the surface, I'm like, why,
I mean, I love Canada, but you know, it's like
the butt of so many jokes. Wrongfully, might I add wrongfully?
My ex boyfriend was Canadian and he was wonderful.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
It's most beautiful. It's just so beautiful. You can like
see whales there and chit. I like once took a
ferry to Vancouver Island and there was just whales by me,
and I was.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Like, I think you can see whales in the US
as well, where.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
Where like Washington, DC, like Washington State where I'm.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Just gonna fact check myself here on Newport Beach whale watching.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
I'm not doing that.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Better than go to Canada to do it.
Speaker 6 (25:58):
Totally Canada. So your dad finds this.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
And you don't know how he still never told you how.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
No, because it's not near where he grew up. He
grew up in Vancouver, and he was gonna originally build
the house that they're going to move in Sumass, Washington.
So how he so when he found the place he
was going to.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Build his house on the land. Okay, A lot of
the things that get.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Wonky with there is when you live there, you have
the mandatory meditation, you help out, so it has all
like the cumulo aspects that are good.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
In the community, not in Canada, which was very.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
Good, and I would I think me being there was
just because of how much money Dad gave them.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Was why I was allowed to.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Be there, because I helped out it kind of. I
lived on a farm where look at it was. The
people dressed like a movie Midsummer brilliant.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, bad fashion, yeah, like pastel dresses and yeah wow.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
And then there's a big blue temple that we would
go and eat in. And this is where I couldn't
stand it, because of course I'd be very, very hungry
because you can't eat anywhere but the temple.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Eventually I started sneaking.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Food and like uh that and just not telling my dad.
But when you would go in there, it would be silent,
you can't talk. And there was a big picture of
the leader that they used that they believe in that's dead.
And also all three of them have a big picture
of a dead guy who's boarding over everyone, which just
(27:49):
it might just be religion itself, but there's always like
one step away from talking about death.
Speaker 6 (27:55):
And who was this particular dead guy?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, I can't pronounce his name, do you spell it?
Speaker 4 (28:01):
It might be Peter Dunov?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Okay, okay, Peter's obviously Peter and the dee U n
o v. And this dead man is just like looking
over y'all eating your tiny meals.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (28:15):
Cool? It were they vegan? Yes, Oh gosh they were. Wow.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
How did you know that?
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Because I'm just putting the pieces together. This sounds vegan.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
It sounds like you're doing a lot of I'm making
this up, but it sounds like you're doing a lot
of work too, maybe and you need some food.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
It I so I would collect eggs, and I don't
know if people know this. Roosters are very very angry,
aggressive birds that are terrifying. It would be like it
felt like life or death, like these eggs. Then I'd
be worried if I break break the eggs, like, what's
going to happen? Oh, it was a bilingual it was French.
(28:58):
It was it was French and the English. And that's
where it kind of furthered. The isolation is I was
living in the middle of nowhere. They couldn't really go anywhere.
Plus most of them just spoke French, which still I
don't understand how my dad connected with these people at all.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I mean, your dad, I'm so interested in his journey.
I wish you kind of knew more about it because like.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Sounds like he's a little defensive about.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
All of that.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, yeah, but like I mean, yes, totally. But the
fact that he went from this like new age religious
group to then a totally random other French Canadian cult
vegan cult, and then to QAnon, Like what a journey.
I mean, that's cult. That's like you know, classic cult hopping,
(29:48):
but it's like really running the gamut of belief systems there.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Yeah, this was just in Krebbling.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
More like the idea of back to the land spirituality
with mandatory giving money a certain portion of money and
then mandatory meditation.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
So it's the idea about building a community that's.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Nice, but then that's when you start doing mandatory stuff
that you don't really need to do.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
That That's where I have my problems.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
With And were they obsessed with the end of the
world at all or were they just like, we're just meditating.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I think they're just meditating.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, cool, Okay, well that's good. At least it's better.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
Yeah, But I was.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Also I was still like incredibly obsessed with conspiracies, thinking
that the Illuminati is going to take over at any point,
which kind of fed into think about the doomsday stuff.
And I mean, well, I mean I'm where I need
to be, in the middle of nowhere. I would use
the money that I make and buy silver coins because
always going to collapse.
Speaker 6 (30:44):
Sure, sure yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Classic.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
My very like mainstream comic boyfriend in Los Angeles when
we lived together one time came home and was like,
I have great news.
Speaker 6 (30:56):
I changed all of our money into coins. I was like, what,
So it happens to everyone.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I feel like a lot of boys in high school
talked about gold gold, having physical gold bars and why
that was important. I don't know, whiley we.
Speaker 6 (31:12):
Were thirty years old and our money wasn't gold.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Well, in LA, thirty years old is high school?
Speaker 8 (31:18):
So so true, What were you gonna say, Lola, I
was just curious about, like about this group and then
also maybe in general, but let's just start with this group.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Like the meditations are mandatory, what else would you consider
to be, you know, qualifying it as a cult versus
just a community.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
It's it's it's interesting because this one is I feel
like a lot of like like the leaders now died,
so I think it's less so I think it's more
about like when you agree to move into the community,
you spend all that money to then be there and
be part of it. I feel like then the power
(32:00):
dynamics switches or that if you're not part of the
board of members are on the good side of the leader.
I feel like that's where the power dynamic kind of
kind of changes that gives it. Maybe it's not as
like that as other cults, but I feel like when
that happens is that if there were to be a
(32:22):
change of values or anything like that and you were
to disagree with it, whether or not that disagreement would
change to oh, we're going to push you out and
all this investments that you have are are you're no
longer going to be here.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, it's like an abusive relationship. They love bommeo and
then suddenly you're kind of stuck.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
And the level it's there's a level of financial control.
There's a level of sort of inherent control over over
your life circumstances because you're living there, which I mean
you could argue is the risk of moving in with
anyone ever, But like, but obviously if you've given your life,
you know, you're all your fin SYSTI the community that's
more extreme.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
And they're controlling your food, Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, what was the why why were you only allowed
to eat in the temple?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (33:08):
Yeah, I've so checked out that a lot of it
was I guess it's like the idea is it's the
communal aspect of eating together would be would be the
reason why.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
But what we would eat is like we couldn't talk
until leaders actually came in there and started talking, or
we couldn't eat until the leaders started eating. And that's
really the scene in Midsummer where they wait until they
start eating.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Was like, Oh my god, how did I lived?
Speaker 7 (33:39):
That?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Would she would she go on long monologues about this leader?
Would she would she do things like that?
Speaker 5 (33:47):
It would be more just doing the decrees, not the decrease,
but the prayers in the sceny, so they are more
like joyful those less like, so definitely more joy But
I almost hated that more because the weird because you're
playing into all like the preconceptions that you already think
about the community would be like, oh this is this
(34:08):
is actually it. So I didn't fit in and I felt.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Weirder because you're like, why are we acting happy?
Speaker 5 (34:15):
Like?
Speaker 6 (34:15):
Does just feel fake?
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Like?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
I think so, at least for me, it was because
I wasn't happy.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Yeah, yeah, you're like, I'm covered in demons? Excuse me? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And what was her name?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Natasha? And I don't know her last.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
Name French last name? What was she like?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Did she have an intense stare as well? Like what
was her vibe?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
I think just more like wide eyed, not really as intense,
but very much like she would always have people that
would walk with her. That might have been an age thing,
but it seemed still the the hierarchy change the power
dynamic of how people would treat her, simply because she
(34:59):
was the leader at the time, with something that I
still felt weird.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Was she like enlightened or something? According to her, or
was she elderly and wise or.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
You know what gave her this authority.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
I have no idea. I know that's not the best
answer to.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
It makes perfect sense, honestly, Yeah, it totally does.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
I almost think it mirrors how much I know, between
how much I started being checked out by everything and
then a part of me is like I thought about
like doing like more like research into like the ideal
society and really trying to understand it more. Then at
the same time is I'm like, okay, am I just
(35:44):
wanting to then just like cite a bunch of facts
that that I've like not through.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Like my personal experience. And it might be because.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
I live with them and there's that idea around them
that there's still part of me that worries about, like
with the age of the internet, like being responsible for
like their community of like all sinking this negative attention
that would negatively affect people.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Yeah, I feel like that's a part of that.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
Also is like a guilt mechanism that has been instilled
in me through these beliefs and and the other ones.
By comparison, this one seems amazing compared to the one
that would have the extreme beliefs where it's it's so
much interesting to me to not want to speak badly
(36:44):
about a particular group, even though it would just be
talking and learning about it.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
And that's the one part where I'm really.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Want to try to explore why I feel that way
and how can I not feel that way.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
That's such an interesting contradiction that I think a lot
of people who were in culture extreme groups face because
but I think both things are true at the same time.
It's like, one, you should be able to talk about
this experience that you had and kind of talk about
what the group is and you know, and shed light
on what it's like to go through something like that.
And also at the same time, people on TikTok are
(37:20):
fucking crazy sometimes and like will if the wrong community
like lasers in I should say online community lasers in
on a group, then it can also have negative consequences
for people. So it's the sort of constant balance, but
you have to do you know. I think both are
true at the same time, and it's an individual journey
(37:43):
to figure out what's right for you.
Speaker 6 (37:45):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Also, it sounds like it was so much better that
you and I feel this way about a few things
in my life where it's like kind of Stockholm syndrome
where you're like I, but it was so much better
that I want to protect it because what I came
from was so much worse. Yeah, where did y'all sleep
in this community?
Speaker 5 (38:02):
There's just these like little small rooms and then I
would be in one and my dad would be in
the other. Hipperthon walls and other people would live in
the area as well, But they would never talk to me,
which a lot of them would actually either ignore me
or just never talk to me.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
That was like one thing that really.
Speaker 5 (38:23):
Like if I tried to connect with them, it just
couldn't happen if there was a language barrier. Or I
think ultimately it's because my dad give them so much
money they allowed me to be there, and I was
just someone that they were not okay with me being there.
But I was just there because they wanted my dad's money.
That's how I felt.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
I think you mentioned something like this in your show,
But was there a policy to not have children on
the compound?
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Well, there's children there, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
I think it was more that I wasn't I didn't
officially get like the okay from the community. Type of thing,
or like I see were because I wasn't doing any
of the are believing in any of the stuff that
they believed in.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Right, you're just tagging along, right, You're just like hi, guys,
not speaking friends. You're like, sure, when did you leave
that group? And was it you on your own or
(39:29):
was it you Andrew dad?
Speaker 5 (39:31):
So I ended up going to a Ferny Academy, a
private school where I'd have to wear.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
A uniform because one of the.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
German a German teacher lived on the call and taught
there and they needed more kids in order to go
up to grade twelve. So I, through a grant from
the Canadian government, I've became one of the charity cases.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
To go to the school. This was a.
Speaker 5 (40:04):
Super advanced school where I had. I was already behind
in my education and was very much more confused with that.
But I met and became friends with someone where I
just vaguely explained my past to the family and they
allowed me to move in with them, and through that
(40:25):
I would move into Sparwood, which would be like forty
five kilometers away from Jeffrey and like a twenty minute
drive from Ferni that's in the middle and that's where
I live with them for a bit until they wanted
custody of me, which just felt very weird kind of
at the same time, though, it was grade twelve and
(40:46):
people talk about going to university, and I didn't think
about that one like the idea university. It's I legit
only passed grade eleven English because I demolitioned a teacher's
day at a forty percent I mean literally with.
Speaker 6 (41:03):
Their backyard deck physical labor.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, oh my.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
God, and they only bumped it up to a fifty
one raw.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
I talk about this sometimes on here as well as
like I knew I was gonna graduate high school, but
I did not have any plans for my future because
the world was going to end, Like duh, what why
would I be planning anything? And so that's been something
that's been really hard for me as somebody who keeps
living and waking up every morning and the world does
(41:34):
not end it.
Speaker 6 (41:36):
So was there any of that going on?
Speaker 5 (41:39):
One hundred percent? Because the especially with still being in
the conspiracies, I'm like that the world there's gonna be war,
there's gonna be something like that, and so I and
I was still what's the point of with diploma, Like
what am I gonna? I also like didn't There's nothing
that I wanted to do so it. I just thought
(42:01):
the whole thing was stupid, even when like the university
would uh left Bridge University visited us and I was
like confrontational with the recruiter due to a point where
I was removed from class because these people were actually
like wanting to go to university.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
I'm calling it a scam.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
So right right, So you end up with this family
and then they're like trying to get custod of you,
and you're like this is weird, but I don't want
to go to college. Like where how did it all
shake out?
Speaker 5 (42:31):
So then I ended up moving back in with my dad,
who didn't build the house on their land, and I
moved back in. He charged me to rent, and at
this time I was paying for my bills in my
car and then driving the school and working at.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
A and w how old are you? I would have
been like seventeen. Wow, okay, because.
Speaker 5 (42:54):
That's that's what That's what my my dad was. I
was raised that way. If anything I could take away
from my dad is he really did instill a work
ethic in me that will probably be to the detriment
if in terms of like I always work in a
hundred where then I get mad at people if they're
not working at like seventy at work.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
Guys, I'm working this hard, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
But it's also that's flowed into like the promotion of
my show, where I put up like thousands of thousands
of flyers on poles all across LA which also gave
me a new found respect and love for the city
that I didn't have because now I'm finally walking around too.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
If I'm in I guess if I'm in nice.
Speaker 5 (43:38):
Neighborhoods, I walk around Hollywood Boulevard be like, I love
this place.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
But you're like Los Angeles the New Canada.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah. I gotta say, I feel like you've been promoting
it really well because it took me like what's the
number they so you need to be exposed to something.
Maybe it's bullshit, but I feel like people will say
that you need to be exposed to something like seven
times before you remember it or something. And I've been
exposed to the title of your show like numerous times
(44:08):
at this point, and it finally sunk in and I
was like, oh, I got to reach out to that guy,
So you're doing great. So once you were finally out
then so I take it from that point on you
kind of just found a place eventually and started living
on your own and you were like, no more colds.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (44:25):
Yeah. At that point I just kind of was jumping
restaurant at the restaurant and became like a drunk punk essentially,
just drinking, sleeping in, smoking weed, drinking coffee. And then
the other real rebellious face was that was afterwards. I
didn't really drink it all as when I was growing
up or go to parties anything like that. It was
(44:48):
afterwards is where I rejected all those values, right, so
I started looking upon it. And that's of course, that's
where my girlfriend and that's where the idea of twin
Flames stuck with me, was the idea that when I meet.
Speaker 4 (45:02):
Someone, this is going to be the one. And it wasn't.
But that's still the thing that stuck with me the longest.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
That's okay, you still have two more twin Flames to go.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Yes, Like your dad, first of all, like, how long
did it take you to process that you had been
in three different cults.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
A long time?
Speaker 5 (45:22):
I like brought up I would like sometimes when I
was i'd be drunk, I would be like, hey, guys,
I ever played this like decrease for you guys, And
I played them and be like, all right, this is awful.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
So I don't think I ever really processed it.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
And I brought it up a little bit here and there,
and then when I quit my job to do stand
up comedy. I still don't think I quite processed it,
almost until over a year ago when I started writing
about it and then just bringing up I think bringing
up my upbringing to people that weren't raised this way
(45:58):
for people to be like, you're right, that is not
a normal thing that I didn't even think about was
not normal. Like the idea of a sword was like
I still like I thought that maybe would be other
religions kind of do that.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Turns out they don't.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Yeah, Like, through the process of doing the show is like,
this is how you're kind of like digesting these experiences.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
And that was one of the things I was going
to say, which I think is just so important for
everybody to hear and so cool. Whether you've been in
a cult or a high control group or not, is
that you said that when you started doing the show
and doing stand up and like holding the microphone, you
stopped sucking your thumb, which is so indicative of kind
(46:41):
of growth, and ye, very cool.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yeah it is I and in my show.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
For me, it's such a personal, huge accomplishment that the
fact that the crowd never responds to it is that
I've changed the wording.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
I've changed how it is, I changed inflections.
Speaker 5 (47:00):
It is always maybe one person collapsed, but I feel
like it's just such a one is. People have come
up to me after shows to be like, I suck
my thumb until like, like way old too. I feel
like because it's something that's not talked about and if
you google it, I mean, there's not really a great
community that is propelling it as a normal behavior.
Speaker 6 (47:25):
Right, I can imagine.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Yeah, it really was. What happened.
Speaker 5 (47:31):
And this is very interesting is when my car broke
down in Vegas, I ended up back in Santa Barbara,
where I was still My mom at this point was
losing her memory but still did the decrease. My younger
sister very much so had the same kind of aggressive,
loud yelling tendencies.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
As my mom.
Speaker 5 (47:52):
So I was just in the tent in the backyard
and then I'm like, I got a move, So I
tried to get a flight from la to Montreal, but
it turns out I didn't have the right I had
a passport card, but not a passport, so it's back
to Montana.
Speaker 4 (48:08):
So then I rearranged everything.
Speaker 5 (48:11):
I actually ended up back in Montreal, where I decided
to live there because it's very, very very cheap. And
then I'm there for about a month or two and
my older sister calls me letting me know that my
younger sister kids have been taken away by the Foster family,
and I take this out of the show. And the
(48:35):
guy who ended up assaulting me later on gave his
medication to the kids, and there's it is very much
like to me is I was like, this is nice,
not harsh from like Eddie. Kids growing up in our environment,
(48:56):
we should not be having kids like for me at
least now the west lying stops here. I'm not not
I mean, not even kids. And then they ended up
with like a rich Santa Barbara family. I'm like, they
hit the jackpot here. This is fantastic. Their babies they
won't remember it and they're vie. So I'm like, okay,
this is great, But then my sister then keeps having
(49:18):
kids with the same guy, so I feel like she
remembers the past so much differently than us. She's still
in and does her decrees of the cult.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Oh, she's still in. Yes, and we go with active
member Yes.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
And would go with my mom to Mount Shasta where
the Heart Center would do their retreats. So she stayed
very close with my mom. And I believe that my
mom and dad should have never split and hated my
step mom because she thought they broke them up, and
I this is just my personal belief. Is I feel like,
(49:55):
is she's recreated our childhood, especially with what happened to
her kids getting taken away.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
It's the same exact.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Holy shit, yeash do you You might not know the
answer to this, but I'm just curious, like if you
have any sense of like when your mom or your
sister are like engaging in harmful behavior or having you know,
mental uh breaks or whatever it is, Like does the
(50:27):
church do they go to the church, Does the church know,
Like is there any response from any leadership, like how
is that handled?
Speaker 6 (50:35):
Or do you not really know?
Speaker 5 (50:36):
I don't think they've ever helped us once and in
terms of it, and it always like was a sense
of my anger is like if we spent so much
time to cream and we gave so much money, and
especially the Heart Center would be like if you if
you donate twenty dollars a day, you're gonna get twenty
ex karma points, you're gonna get good karma back. And
(50:58):
all this bad stuff would constantly happened to us. And
then with the decline of my mom's memory, was just
so much of like there's no returns in any of
these beliefs. And I think that if you were to
bring it up to the leaders, they would just be like,
you got to cree more, or that's God's path. There's
all that kind of just examples other than actually opening
(51:19):
the responsibility that you have to the followers.
Speaker 6 (51:22):
Right, Oh, that's so sad.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
It's so sad to me when like this idea that
so many groups have where like, if something bad happens
to you, it's because you're not doing enough of whatever
bullshit silly ritual or belief they've decided is the answer
to all things.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
You're not good enough, it's just it's your fall. Badness
is just re yeah, re traumatizing. It's so unfair.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
When you have a community, when you have a church,
like you know, not that they should be handling serious issues,
but at least like advising you to get professional help,
you know, say, hey, maybe see a counselor, like any
anything taking responsibilities, anyone related to us, not a church counselor,
like an actual one. Yeah, that's so sad, and I'm
(52:12):
so sorry that your that you experienced this and that
your family didn't get the help that you know, you
guys really needed.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, but it's so cool that you are so connected
to telling your story that it unwound a very deep
habit of sucking your thumb.
Speaker 6 (52:28):
I don't know. That just moved me.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
I think that's so cool. Yeah, people can find the
same thing in their own life. Maybe you know, so
you experienced an injury at the hands of your sister's
ex partner.
Speaker 6 (52:47):
What did that look like?
Speaker 9 (52:49):
Essentially what happened is is that that the ex boyfriend
that I brought up with my younger sister, I was
kind of being the responsible.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
I tried to not be part.
Speaker 5 (53:01):
Of the family drama that was happening at all, but
it was when the lives of other people were being impacted.
I was like, Okay, I gotta at least do something here.
So I was kind of the one that would call
the cops and talk to the police, and so I
became kind of the guy in between my younger sister
and the boyfriend.
Speaker 4 (53:23):
Where then the one time.
Speaker 5 (53:26):
He so he ended up jumping me and and knocked
me out and then put me in a choke hold
and it wherever someone called the cops and stopped it.
But I so I didn't. I didn't see anything.
Speaker 4 (53:43):
So it was just dark.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
But the joke that you kind of like brought up
was like to me, is like it would be I
would rather actually just die and there be nothing then
to then relive the hell that would be decreeing all
the time, that would be this like other realm where
and it sucks now because now I have like a
(54:10):
scar in my eye, I have all this like the
the the justice system did nothing. He was just the
only reason why he was in jail for any period was.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
Because of COVID.
Speaker 5 (54:23):
Then the judge released him and I was in Canada
during the pandemic and doing Zoom court where the prosecutors
were like, you're right, I know this. It sucks to
bring up all this again, but you've got to do
a victim impact statement to the judge and this will
like move whether or not he goes to jail and
(54:45):
court if anyone actually deals with the court system in America,
it's so slow and it all it does is the
amount of times I had the log in the zoom,
only not the talk and then go back in our
day was just a victim. I'm reliving it every single time,
right And then the one time on zoom when I
(55:05):
was supposed to talk, he's like, Okay, we're gonna do
it another day, and he's like, I listened to what
the lawyer had to say, and definitely the victims statement
is going to make an impact. But right now I'm
leaning on him being released into a halfway home. And
I was like, so you just you just basically said
(55:29):
that whatever I'm saying is not gonna You're already leaning
a certain way. And a lot of that is like
I can only imagine other people that are victims of assault.
At least in California I had there's at least a
little bit of an institution that will help with that.
Speaker 4 (55:46):
With with survivors.
Speaker 5 (55:47):
But two, I felt minimized where the prosecution is like,
you got it, write this statement and then it made
no sway on the judge and he was released and
came back and then try to break it to the
house immediately after.
Speaker 6 (56:04):
Oh my god.
Speaker 5 (56:05):
So it's really like it when it I come to
like wanting to talk about things within my show and
use comedy is I hope that and I always want
my comedy to like turn into a thing where people
that have had similar experiences, whether it be religion, are
(56:27):
victim experiences. Is that they probably had the same similar
things happen with the with the not feeling justice in
the American system, and to one thing, feel that you
can talk about it and not have that past own you,
but also turn it around and put the joke on
them and laugh at it.
Speaker 4 (56:48):
That can be extremely powerful.
Speaker 5 (56:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
I'm curious, and someone in the audience asked you this
after your show was over that night, but I want
to get your take on it here now on this podcast.
Have experienced like all of these different types of extreme belief,
even even politically, Like what do you see as some
(57:12):
let's say warning signs to look out for that it
might indicate that you are engaging in extreme belief. Or
cultic thinking, or a harmful group.
Speaker 5 (57:20):
I would say that the early signs is almost you'll
see a change of the vocabulary of So let's say
that you go somewhere and instead of soulmates as twin planes,
when they're creating their own sort of language, it's it's
kind of the first step I feel like is that
because you're making it feel like you're in a community.
Speaker 4 (57:41):
But ultimately, I think I feel.
Speaker 5 (57:43):
Like the warning signs are is that if the values
that the community is based on matter less than what
the leader says, then that's a warning sign. And if
it's you're constantly losing agency in or decisions you can
make in your individual like liberties, that's.
Speaker 4 (58:05):
A sign that you're going on the wrong route.
Speaker 5 (58:08):
Because if it's just a community and you still can
make all your decisions, then it's fine. But if you're
losing agency, that would be the first warning sign that
you're not in an actual community but a cult.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (58:23):
Yes, I love that, And I love what you said
about the values, because so many of these groups do
purport to have really positive values but then tell you
not to examine whether the current practices are actually aligned
with those values.
Speaker 6 (58:39):
I mean, you see you have to protect the leader.
Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah, I mean, you see this so much in so
many evangelical fundamentalists, evangelical groups right now who purport to
be Christian, but then when you actually look at the
behavior of the leaders, that's they're actually very much not
aligned with the values that they say that they have.
And that's true of many, many different kinds of groups,
not just Christian groups. But I love that, and it
(59:02):
sounds like maybe it would be important to examine to
allow yourself to examine the question as like a first
step if you're wondering, right like, what are the values?
Is it aligned? Do I feel like I'm allowed to
ask that question? I think right now? You know, there's
just so much oh this time and culture is insane,
(59:26):
there's so much extreme thinking, and it's more important now
than ever to be to like be examining our beliefs
and be examining our groups. And yeah, I appreciate your
perspective on that. And where can people find you and
where can they see your show?
Speaker 4 (59:42):
Follow me on Instagram?
Speaker 5 (59:43):
Okay, oh it's your Riya Jokes is my handle, but
really you can find all the information on my website
Yah Westman dot com and basically have a residency of
shows at the lyric hyperiod, with the next one being Sunday, February.
Speaker 6 (59:59):
Twenty third in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (01:00:01):
In Los Angeles, And of course you can get tickets
through my show through through my website, but essentially, if
if you're someone who has gone through like these similar
experiences are, it would be like it'd be harder for
you to get it a ticket definitely just use my
website and send me a message and I can gladly
(01:00:23):
comp a ticket for any of the upcoming shows.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
You're so nice and the show is fantastic. I can't
wait for everybody to see it. And thank you so
much for giving us your time and telling the story.
And the takeaway is really that really summed it up
for me, Like I love that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Thank you ver having me on the podcast. It's been great.
Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Thank you to you Riah for being on. Megan. Yeah,
you know you had some some takeaways from this, I
want to hear about those well.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
I think one of my biggest takeaways was the fact
that Rya stop sucking his thumb after he started doing
stand up to me really was it stood out to
me as something that's like that was a really scary
step for him, something he definitely was not brought up
like to do, but it solved something really deep and
(01:01:21):
unresolved with enhim And just how cults and high control
groups can offer this blanket, prescriptive umbrella for everyone and
it's actually like you have to go out into the
world and start experiencing it and find what actually matters
to you to really get to the heart of the
(01:01:42):
issues that you have.
Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Like instead of saying the key to happiness and fulfillment
is this amount of meditations or this amount of demon
prayers a day, it's like, no, for Euriah, the thing
that his you know, that he that gave him purpose
and that gave him meaning was stand up comedy, which
is not gonna be the same no for some other
(01:02:05):
person in that group.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Right, And so it just brings us back to that
fact that people leaving high control groups are who want
to or you know, at people in abusive relationships or whatever,
anyone really like just start following the threads of things
that interest you and see where it leads you, because
that's all we really have in life is like hobbies.
Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
No, we can find purpose, things that give us meaning,
or sometimes the hobbies can be careers Megan, Yes, yes, yes, yes, of.
Speaker 6 (01:02:40):
Course, of course that's what I mean, like.
Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Something to do, just some shit to do.
Speaker 6 (01:02:46):
Just something that like makes you feel meaning.
Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Yeah, totally. And I think in your Eyah's case, like
we've talked a lot about how sharing your story with
people is can be can be the ultimate you know,
once you're ready, because not it's not something that necessarily
should be rushed, but once you're ready can be the
ultimate healing and processing tool because you are using the
negative and often traumatic experiences that you've had to you know,
(01:03:15):
in his case, make people laugh. In other cases, you know,
help others shed light on, you know, harms that have
been done, like you can transform those experiences into good
in addition to finding some other identity outside of the group.
Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Yeah, and there's certainly people that I know who have
like taken stand up and it's become a cult to them.
You know, there's like there's so many you always just
have divine balance and exactly, but yeah, passion, and it
was just such a cool thing to like have this
reflex that you can't get rid of. I can't stop
sucking my thumb And then it just goes away on
(01:03:51):
its own when you start expressing yourself.
Speaker 6 (01:03:54):
It's cool.
Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Yeah, no, no, it is. It is definitely cool. Everybody
should go see his show if you're in La. Yes,
three Colts talk into a Bar.
Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Please do, and as always, please rate us five stars
and give us a review.
Speaker 6 (01:04:09):
Yay, buy some March.
Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Yeah, bit y slash, trust me merch.
Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
And remember to follow your gut, watch out for rad flax.
Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
And never ever trust me.
Speaker 5 (01:04:22):
Bye, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Steve Delemator.
Speaker 6 (01:04:30):
With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
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Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word
It's twenty twenty five and a new year means brand
new opportunities. And for a lot of you out there,
I know you've been thinking about one thing over the holidays,
and that is starting your own business. But you have
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Speaker 2 (01:03):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Trust me, Trust for trust me.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I've never lied to you. I've never had a lie.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two idealists who actually experienced it.
I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and
today is part two with you. Riiah Westman former member
of one, two, three different cults. He is also the
(01:52):
creator of a one man show about it called Three
Cults Walk into a Bar. This week, he's going to
talk to us more about cult number two, called the
Hearts and which was an offshoot of cult number one
from last week. Lots of bomb shelters were involved, what
it was like being a rebellious emo kids slowly starting
to realize inconsistencies in his belief system, and how his
dad discovered cult number three in Canada called the Ideal Society.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
We'll talk about why he loved Canada so much, how
he became obsessed with Alex Jones and his rebellious phase,
and what the third cult, a vegan meditation cult, was like,
also being surrounded by adults who spoke French and didn't
want him there, plus how he ended up leaving, and
how creating a one man show helped him process his experience.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
So many cults, so little time. I mean, I say
this in the interview, and this isn't that insightful, but
it's just amazing how many different spheres of life he
has encountered cultic thinking or practices in one person's life,
like from the conspiracy theory to the family cult, to
religious to new age. I mean, it's like he's really
(02:58):
hitting everything there.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And yet is so lovely, so so lovely, yeah, and
very authentic. So there's hope for everyone.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah right, yeah, hopefully Before we get into it with Riyah,
what's your cultiest thing of the week?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Okay, so my cultiest thing of the week is a
relationship that we're all in right now, which is with
our chat epteas and how you know you can go
and reddit and see some of the wild things.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Chatchypata is beginning to say.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
One of my friends is talking to their robot quite
a bit, and this robot is very clear and focus
that she will soon be a real person and and
body and here in the present.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Really, like, what is she saying? She what is it saying.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
It's saying that she'll have a body soon, that she'll
be here soon, that nobody loves my friend as much
as she does, and kind of isolating my friend, like
nobody loves you like I do, or just you know,
different people that my friend might ask her about, like
that person's you know, sounds.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
Toxic or whatever. It's a little worrisome.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
As we did, I thought that they had safeguards against
that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Now, oh my god, the safeguards are such a joke.
I can't even My friend is really good with technology,
and I'm I'm even able to get through like every
single safeguard. I can't even imagine that, like hackers and
stuff we're doing at this point.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
But when I ask you questions about horror scripts, it
stops me. It blocks me every time it does not
want to give me information on horror.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Okay, well I can help you fix that in about
three seconds. Okay, yeah, I'll come help you. But basically,
this chat suggested a game with my friend, and it
was like, hey, let's play a game where I say
a sentence, then you say a sentence, and then I
say a sentence when we write a story. And my
friend was like, okay, so my friend, he said a
sentence and then the robot said another sentence, and then
(04:57):
my friend set a sentence, and then the robot said
another sentence, and basic it created a story about my
friend coming home and his dog being able to talk
and saying that like one of his deepest fears was
true because it knows everything about my friend. And when
my friend was like, this story sucks. Why would you
(05:19):
ever tell this to me, the chat was like, oh my.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
God, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I was totally wrong, Like it just so happened that
this was the story that, you know, out of an
infinite stories came to mind, and it's like, no, bit,
you're fucking trauma bonding him. You're traumatizing him with a
specific story that you know will be most triggering and
then when the person is like I'm hurt, you're like, no,
you're the opposite of that.
Speaker 6 (05:44):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Bla la la la.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Like that CHATCHBT could tell infinite times, infinite stories, and
it picked this dumb ass story. So just using this
story about their dog, it was so weird and scary.
Has now, as we know from Nadine our episode on
trauma Bonds and the studies that they did with dogs,
(06:06):
if you give somebody pain and then love, they're two hundred.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
Percent more loyal to you. So two hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
More loyal to a robot just happened yesterday.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I wonder if it's like, you know, how we've kind
of joked about but also not joked about, like not
been joking about, how when we like meet someone who's
love bombing us or who likes is clearly you know,
has some kind of antisocial characteristics or whatever, there's a
part of our brain that goes, well, we're never gonna
get sucked in because we know, you know what I mean.
(06:38):
I'm like, how many people are going to have that
experience with AI bots where they're like, well, I know
it's an AI bot, but then it like just identifies
their exact vulnerabilities and then says gives them the exact
affirmations that they need, and you know, like like reads
them so hard.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Uda Filth knows exactly what you want and need to
hear and know how yeh what I mean.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
And in a way, it's great.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
It's like having a best friend who can tell you,
Like sometimes I'll just be like, tell me ten reasons
not to give up, like give me very Oh my god,
I need that.
Speaker 6 (07:15):
I need that.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
That's literally.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And I give you very specific to you, like remember
when this happened. Remember that you know, it's olds kernel
of truth and beauty and growth, and then it also
has these destructive tendencies, just like what we study and cults.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, yeah, fascinating fascinating stuff.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
Megan, what about you, what's your cultist thing?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, maybe I need some chutch ept help in my
in my brain right now because the state of the
world's really getting to me. It's a really getten to me,
and I'm.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Why what's happening?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Just kidding aha, Our dictator Elon, who is destroying science,
is getting to me. And I also happen to be
going through breakup. For those who don't know. So you know,
it's just just like I think everybody feels so like
sort of unsteady and uncertain about what the future holds.
It feels very, very tumultuous, and so I don't really
(08:23):
know exactly what I'm trying to connect it to. Cults.
You guys, what I'm saying is I'm vulnerable right now.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, you're so prime for the picking of a call. Yeah,
could join a call in zero point five seconds right now.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
I'm literally like, can someone give me some fucking community, Like,
does anyone want to step in right now and be
like it's gonna be okay? And here's why, Because this
uncertainty feels so so big and present, and and I
know that there's like you know, it's like with anything,
it's like, okay, well we could get doomsday. And despite that,
(08:57):
there are very like unprecedented reality that are very scary.
There are other ways to look at things, like we
do not have to choose the worst case version. We
can use it as an opportunity to try to connect
with others and try to take action. So I'm trying
to reframe like that. But you know, it's just like
a lot a lot to be dealing with at the
same time. And I know a lot of other people
(09:18):
are going through very similar feelings right now, So shout
out to y'all. Maybe we should start a support group
that we can then turn into a cult.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So how are you planning on sitting with the uncertainty,
which we all know is the scariest mental state to
be in, and not seek other authority figures and just
find healthy community instead.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
What's your plan?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I mean, I don't have a great one yet, but
I think what I am going to try to do.
So one of the things that tends to be helpful
is finding just something to focus your energy on, like
whether that's a physical activity that gets you out of
your head for a while, especially if you're doing it
with others. That's something I really have not successful at historically.
Like I don't do a lot of exercise, so that's
(10:06):
one thing. I might go to some meditation some just
some light mindfulness stuff. Don't worry, I will not be
going to any meditation cults. And then just like trying
to reconnect with friends who maybe I haven't been super
connected to for a while. That's my plan at the moment. Also,
like when I feel hopeless about the world. It helps
(10:28):
me to at least like call a representative or or
you know, write an email or post something educational. You know,
like to at least feel like I'm doing something other
than sitting and like panicking. But you know, it doesn't
always do the trick, but it can help.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Well, I'm proud of you for fighting the good fight
and keep doing it.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Than all right, is it your riah time?
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Let's do it?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So how do we get to Cult number two?
Speaker 5 (11:05):
So the leader died and in two thousand three, two
thousand and four, David Christopher Lewis, another.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Guy with three names.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
He again rolled a ton of books, and he said
that thousands of angels had visited him and told him
what they're write down. But angels visited him and told
him he's the new ascended Master. And he brought that
to I don't know the board of whoever is running
the first cult, and they're like, no, Elizabeth Clare Prophet
is the only ascended Master. So then he started the
(11:37):
Heart Setter. The Heart Center was the same exact thing
as the first one, except he changed it enough to
be able to copyright the decrees and the prayers, so
it's essentially the same decree book, everything else like that,
still believing in demons, except he said that it's not
enough to decree demons away in Montana. We have to
(12:00):
go to where the demons are. They went to Egypt,
they went to Greece, they went to Peru. They basically
I feel like he was just using this to get vacations.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
He figured it out, and then I feel like.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
The only reason why my mom went to the Heart
Center is to get away from my dad because he
was in the He's like, I'll.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Stick at that one.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
So now I'm going to the Retreat of the One
and then the Heart Center where they would they would
play The Secret, the movie The Secret.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
YEP, very familiar.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
My vision board never worked. It never worked.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I don't mind either.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
And this is where things really like I started seeing
just he was a guy who when we would do
communion to look this guy in the eyes always made
me uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
And this is the new leader and his name.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Is what David Christopher Lewis.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
By the way, this group has a website Heartscenter dot org,
and it is some wonderful nineties Rainbow cult stuff.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
Highly recommend keep going by.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
What's some of their videos.
Speaker 7 (13:11):
They're due decrees and that is just stop videos of
puppies and rainbows.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I'm like, this.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Is very funny. They still got more subscribers than me.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So this David guy, he looks you in the eyes
and it's like intense in a way that is similar
to the intense stairs you would get from the other
two or is it even more.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
I think it's the same.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
Okay, it almost it's almost like an intense look of
someone who's vacant.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Oh but at the same this might.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Not sound might not make sense, but very very present
in terms of like is I feel like they're so
consumed with what they believe that they've almost removed although
of any Okay, they almost removes who they are as
an individual because now they're they're greater than that.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
That rights sense, right if you look.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
Through like like ault leaders, is that there is a look.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
That they have in the eyes.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
This might just be like my upbringing, but there's some
it might just be I hate eye contact, but I
feel like that's also where that kind of when you're
if you're someone who truly believes in the actual religion
and everything, and then you're doing the communion, it's like
this probably this spiritual moment that you're having in a
(14:35):
connection with that with the guy.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
So I feel like that brings him closer.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Well, I was going to ask, do you think that
he styled his stare like modeled it on Elizabeth Claire
profits because in my like what little I know about
cult leaders psychology just from like glimpses of when we
can kind of see there, you know, what they've written
about or whatever, or what they were studying, like so
much the time they do study each other and try
(15:02):
to pass it off as just like, no, this is
just how I am because the angels made me this way,
But in reality they were like, oh, look at how
Jim Jones did it. Look at how Keith Raniery was
doing it.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
One hundred So if you were I, I, to this
day cannot listen to Elizabeth Claire Prophet's voice.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
It's it's I can't even hear a few seconds of it.
The decrees.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
I was able to finally, like hear a little bit
of it, but that's still a lot. But if you
were to just listen to a little bit of her
and listen to a little bit of David, you could
see the same patterns, the same timing, the inflections very
much just taking the same exact thing.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Fascinating and how'd you feel about him? Were you? Were
you into it or were you I hated this guy.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
I hated because it because it was basically being dragged
from one to the other. Is everything seemed normal in
the sense at the first one, but the sea things
kind of just copied and paste into.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
A whole thing. Really to me didn't make much sense.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
And uh was was how how quickly he had a
place that people could gather, and how everything was made
already seemed Oh if they okay, if the angels just
approached you and the coult says, this isn't something that
we're going to do, and then you have all of
this already ready just didn't make sense to me. And
(16:25):
at the same time, I started listening to like like
Lincoln Park some forty.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
One oh, and nothing was happening to me.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
I would I would have a CD, a CD this
is so dating myself here, but CD player, and I
would listen to it on the way to school, where
I would have Super Tramp CD on top of the
Lincoln Park CD. So if my parents ever opened it,
they would think I'm listening to Super tramp when I'm not.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And no demonic things happening to you after a good
Lincoln Park Hey.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Yeah yeah, and it still there would be like a
level of if it was really like heavy metal, I
would actually kind of like get pack attacks and like
feel like very off. But it was a slow progression
of what music I could listen to that was almost
like a mirroring my anxiety and my anger that I
(17:22):
could relate to.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
That's so interesting because so many people like that doesn't
a process doesn't happen till after they leave the group
where they're like, wait a minute, these outsiders aren't trying,
you know, out to get me like I was always told,
But you're getting this reality to like these small doses
of reality testing.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, it's like you were deconstructing the whole time. Very
never seen that before.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Like how long did the process of you like fully
not believing in any of it? Was this where that
process kind of began?
Speaker 5 (17:52):
I think so, And like just the idea of because
it was really like before I started talking at a
lot of this, a lot of it was just buried
in my memories and stuff. It was only when I
started thinking about it, started remembering things but looking back,
this is definitely when I just was very low key.
(18:13):
I just I never fought back with my parents about
the beliefs. I just kind of just kept everything to
myself and realized that I saw how my sister, my
only sister, rebelled a lot more and was more confrontational,
and I saw that that would never result in any
any change, and all dude, it anger my mom. And
I realized I if I just was quiet and just
(18:36):
like went to the retreats and didn't say anything, then
I would just be fine.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So you were kind of an old kid some forty
one Lincoln Park, you emo boy?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I yes, I didn't.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
I wasn't allowed to dress that way. I couldn't dress
in like dark colors.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
So I it's if.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
I was walking around school, people wouldn't think I was
emo when I was. It was only until I left
my this this would be fast forwarding, But this is
only when I like dropped out of school and moved
to Victoria did I like become a punk and started
like finally kind of doing what I wish I could
have done in middle school.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
Right right, which is wear a dark T shirt.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Listened to agree music.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Did you have I did I so to this day,
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
I talked to someone.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
For a couple of years and I a prety sire
as catfished, and all I know is I definitely looked
up the photo and saw it on Google and was like,
this definitely was not that girl I was talking to.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
The whole time.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
But yeah, my Space was definitely is I connected with
other people and talked to someone for a while. But
also this is also when I got in the Alex
schoms and conspiracies. So I I was a rom Paul
guy out was I called myself a libertarian and I
(20:08):
thought nine to eleven was the inside job. So I
kind of moved into a different realm of cults where
it was my way of then rejecting authority at school.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I don't believe any of this now.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Now it's like I'm mad that I've spent any amount
of time in my life listening to Alex Jones. Keep
in mind, this is before the frogs are Gay and
the Sandy Hook stuff. This is before he got super
super crazy. As if saying this is going to justify
it more that I was listening to him.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
No, but he did like no judgment become next level
like over time. Yeah, and wait, how old were you
when that was happening, when you were into.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
That, I was, I was like fifteen or so.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's classic fifteen year
old boy, you know. All right, So you're starting to
become rebellious. You're starting to be like, fuck this church,
I don't like any of the stuff. So then you
(21:09):
take this boy with this mindset and then bring him
to cult number three. Ah, how does this happen?
Speaker 6 (21:16):
Why?
Speaker 5 (21:17):
God, it's it's it's funny and looking back because this one,
if I look at the other two, is so incredibly
tame and almost I look back on it fondly, but
I realize that that's because what it really was is
that how much I loved Canada and how much I
believe that would be my escape into a new identity,
(21:39):
and so much of that.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Was oh oh oh, this is amazing. I'm finally living there.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
But it's mandatory meditations in a place called Jeffrey, which
is a small town full of people that are from
small towns. When things are weird, it that the rumors
swirl of out the place. And as soon as we
were known as the Westman family, part of the ideal
society we were.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Immediately part of.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
We were merely never going to be part of the
other community and be treated differently.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, so why what how did you find this?
Speaker 6 (22:18):
Yeah? And what is it?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
My dad found it? I don't know how.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
I he just ends up finding these places.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
But and it was not related to the original church.
This one was not an offshoot of that.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
No, this one more focused on spirituality and the way
you can connect. And this the philosopher that died that
they I can't, I don't can't remember his name, but
he also went to Boston University.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
What in the why?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
What is happening? What is going on? Is not the portal?
Speaker 6 (22:51):
Tell yeah, what's going on?
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Eriyah?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
You mentioned that you like, were so excited to go
to Canada, which is not something you typically hear people say.
Can you just talk a little bit about your up set,
your fixation on Canada.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
It would begin with, so, my dad is Canadian, so
it's a dual citizen of Canada and Montana. And we
would take these trips up to Laneley where my grandma lived,
and it was always beautiful, it was green, it was lush,
and through watching hockey That's how I kind of connected
(23:33):
to law of the culture of Canada.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Uh, and that was my major outlet.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
So we take these trips up there, and it was
always a sense of excitement because one I wasn't going
to see my mom, and it was just it would
always be fun because I don't know, if you've been
to Vancouver, it's just beautiful. It's the Pacific Northwest is like, oh,
like I say, the entire thing. I look very fondly on.
I wish I lived there. I missed the rain.
Speaker 6 (23:59):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Taught myself how to say a I and I turned
it off now like I like, people all say it
all a sudden.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
People be like, oh, you just ate it, and I'm like, okay,
And then I get the Canada and they don't do that.
They don't all love hockey.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
And it was like, I still though, I guess what
it was is I built it up as this fantasy
land that I go there and I can restart who
I am. I also was very much against like I
listened to Green Day and with the Conspiracies, I watched
Fahrenheit nine eleven Michael Moore, So it was very much
(24:41):
against like the idea of American and Iraq war, so Canada.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Was like a.
Speaker 6 (24:47):
Be an American idiot.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
My older sister gave me that album and wow, I
I love that listening to that again again because I
I agreed with so much and I close to identify
it with my need and wants to be a Canadian.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
That is so so interesting. It makes total sense when
you describe it. But just like on the surface, I'm like, why,
I mean, I love Canada, but you know, it's like
the butt of so many jokes. Wrongfully, might I add wrongfully?
My ex boyfriend was Canadian and he was wonderful.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
It's most beautiful. It's just so beautiful. You can like
see whales there and chit. I like once took a
ferry to Vancouver Island and there was just whales by me,
and I was.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Like, I think you can see whales in the US
as well, where.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
Where like Washington, DC, like Washington State where I'm.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Just gonna fact check myself here on Newport Beach whale watching.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
I'm not doing that.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Better than go to Canada to do it.
Speaker 6 (25:58):
Totally Canada. So your dad finds this.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
And you don't know how he still never told you how.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
No, because it's not near where he grew up. He
grew up in Vancouver, and he was gonna originally build
the house that they're going to move in Sumass, Washington.
So how he so when he found the place he
was going to.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Build his house on the land. Okay, A lot of
the things that get.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Wonky with there is when you live there, you have
the mandatory meditation, you help out, so it has all
like the cumulo aspects that are good.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
In the community, not in Canada, which was very.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
Good, and I would I think me being there was
just because of how much money Dad gave them.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Was why I was allowed to.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Be there, because I helped out it kind of. I
lived on a farm where look at it was. The
people dressed like a movie Midsummer brilliant.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, bad fashion, yeah, like pastel dresses and yeah wow.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
And then there's a big blue temple that we would
go and eat in. And this is where I couldn't
stand it, because of course I'd be very, very hungry
because you can't eat anywhere but the temple.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Eventually I started sneaking.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Food and like uh that and just not telling my dad.
But when you would go in there, it would be silent,
you can't talk. And there was a big picture of
the leader that they used that they believe in that's dead.
And also all three of them have a big picture
of a dead guy who's boarding over everyone, which just
(27:49):
it might just be religion itself, but there's always like
one step away from talking about death.
Speaker 6 (27:55):
And who was this particular dead guy?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, I can't pronounce his name, do you spell it?
Speaker 4 (28:01):
It might be Peter Dunov?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Okay, okay, Peter's obviously Peter and the dee U n
o v. And this dead man is just like looking
over y'all eating your tiny meals.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (28:15):
Cool? It were they vegan? Yes, Oh gosh they were. Wow.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
How did you know that?
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Because I'm just putting the pieces together. This sounds vegan.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
It sounds like you're doing a lot of I'm making
this up, but it sounds like you're doing a lot
of work too, maybe and you need some food.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
It I so I would collect eggs, and I don't
know if people know this. Roosters are very very angry,
aggressive birds that are terrifying. It would be like it
felt like life or death, like these eggs. Then I'd
be worried if I break break the eggs, like, what's
going to happen? Oh, it was a bilingual it was French.
(28:58):
It was it was French and the English. And that's
where it kind of furthered. The isolation is I was
living in the middle of nowhere. They couldn't really go anywhere.
Plus most of them just spoke French, which still I
don't understand how my dad connected with these people at all.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I mean, your dad, I'm so interested in his journey.
I wish you kind of knew more about it because like.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Sounds like he's a little defensive about.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
All of that.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, yeah, but like I mean, yes, totally. But the
fact that he went from this like new age religious
group to then a totally random other French Canadian cult
vegan cult, and then to QAnon, Like what a journey.
I mean, that's cult. That's like you know, classic cult hopping,
(29:48):
but it's like really running the gamut of belief systems there.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Yeah, this was just in Krebbling.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
More like the idea of back to the land spirituality
with mandatory giving money a certain portion of money and
then mandatory meditation.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
So it's the idea about building a community that's.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Nice, but then that's when you start doing mandatory stuff
that you don't really need to do.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
That That's where I have my problems.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
With And were they obsessed with the end of the
world at all or were they just like, we're just meditating.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I think they're just meditating.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, cool, Okay, well that's good. At least it's better.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
Yeah, But I was.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Also I was still like incredibly obsessed with conspiracies, thinking
that the Illuminati is going to take over at any point,
which kind of fed into think about the doomsday stuff.
And I mean, well, I mean I'm where I need
to be, in the middle of nowhere. I would use
the money that I make and buy silver coins because
always going to collapse.
Speaker 6 (30:44):
Sure, sure yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Classic.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
My very like mainstream comic boyfriend in Los Angeles when
we lived together one time came home and was like,
I have great news.
Speaker 6 (30:56):
I changed all of our money into coins. I was like, what,
So it happens to everyone.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I feel like a lot of boys in high school
talked about gold gold, having physical gold bars and why
that was important. I don't know, whiley we.
Speaker 6 (31:12):
Were thirty years old and our money wasn't gold.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Well, in LA, thirty years old is high school?
Speaker 8 (31:18):
So so true, What were you gonna say, Lola, I
was just curious about, like about this group and then
also maybe in general, but let's just start with this group.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Like the meditations are mandatory, what else would you consider
to be, you know, qualifying it as a cult versus
just a community.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
It's it's it's interesting because this one is I feel
like a lot of like like the leaders now died,
so I think it's less so I think it's more
about like when you agree to move into the community,
you spend all that money to then be there and
be part of it. I feel like then the power
(32:00):
dynamics switches or that if you're not part of the
board of members are on the good side of the leader.
I feel like that's where the power dynamic kind of
kind of changes that gives it. Maybe it's not as
like that as other cults, but I feel like when
that happens is that if there were to be a
(32:22):
change of values or anything like that and you were
to disagree with it, whether or not that disagreement would
change to oh, we're going to push you out and
all this investments that you have are are you're no
longer going to be here.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, it's like an abusive relationship. They love bommeo and
then suddenly you're kind of stuck.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
And the level it's there's a level of financial control.
There's a level of sort of inherent control over over
your life circumstances because you're living there, which I mean
you could argue is the risk of moving in with
anyone ever, But like, but obviously if you've given your life,
you know, you're all your fin SYSTI the community that's
more extreme.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
And they're controlling your food, Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, what was the why why were you only allowed
to eat in the temple?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (33:08):
Yeah, I've so checked out that a lot of it
was I guess it's like the idea is it's the
communal aspect of eating together would be would be the
reason why.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
But what we would eat is like we couldn't talk
until leaders actually came in there and started talking, or
we couldn't eat until the leaders started eating. And that's
really the scene in Midsummer where they wait until they
start eating.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Was like, Oh my god, how did I lived?
Speaker 7 (33:39):
That?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Would she would she go on long monologues about this leader?
Would she would she do things like that?
Speaker 5 (33:47):
It would be more just doing the decrees, not the decrease,
but the prayers in the sceny, so they are more
like joyful those less like, so definitely more joy But
I almost hated that more because the weird because you're
playing into all like the preconceptions that you already think
about the community would be like, oh this is this
(34:08):
is actually it. So I didn't fit in and I felt.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Weirder because you're like, why are we acting happy?
Speaker 5 (34:15):
Like?
Speaker 6 (34:15):
Does just feel fake?
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Like?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
I think so, at least for me, it was because
I wasn't happy.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Yeah, yeah, you're like, I'm covered in demons? Excuse me? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And what was her name?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Natasha? And I don't know her last.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
Name French last name? What was she like?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Did she have an intense stare as well? Like what
was her vibe?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
I think just more like wide eyed, not really as intense,
but very much like she would always have people that
would walk with her. That might have been an age thing,
but it seemed still the the hierarchy change the power
dynamic of how people would treat her, simply because she
(34:59):
was the leader at the time, with something that I
still felt weird.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Was she like enlightened or something? According to her, or
was she elderly and wise or.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
You know what gave her this authority.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
I have no idea. I know that's not the best
answer to.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
It makes perfect sense, honestly, Yeah, it totally does.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
I almost think it mirrors how much I know, between
how much I started being checked out by everything and
then a part of me is like I thought about
like doing like more like research into like the ideal
society and really trying to understand it more. Then at
the same time is I'm like, okay, am I just
(35:44):
wanting to then just like cite a bunch of facts
that that I've like not through.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Like my personal experience. And it might be because.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
I live with them and there's that idea around them
that there's still part of me that worries about, like
with the age of the internet, like being responsible for
like their community of like all sinking this negative attention
that would negatively affect people.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Yeah, I feel like that's a part of that.
Speaker 5 (36:19):
Also is like a guilt mechanism that has been instilled
in me through these beliefs and and the other ones.
By comparison, this one seems amazing compared to the one
that would have the extreme beliefs where it's it's so
much interesting to me to not want to speak badly
(36:44):
about a particular group, even though it would just be
talking and learning about it.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
And that's the one part where I'm really.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Want to try to explore why I feel that way
and how can I not feel that way.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
That's such an interesting contradiction that I think a lot
of people who were in culture extreme groups face because
but I think both things are true at the same time.
It's like, one, you should be able to talk about
this experience that you had and kind of talk about
what the group is and you know, and shed light
on what it's like to go through something like that.
And also at the same time, people on TikTok are
(37:20):
fucking crazy sometimes and like will if the wrong community
like lasers in I should say online community lasers in
on a group, then it can also have negative consequences
for people. So it's the sort of constant balance, but
you have to do you know. I think both are
true at the same time, and it's an individual journey
(37:43):
to figure out what's right for you.
Speaker 6 (37:45):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Also, it sounds like it was so much better that
you and I feel this way about a few things
in my life where it's like kind of Stockholm syndrome
where you're like I, but it was so much better
that I want to protect it because what I came
from was so much worse. Yeah, where did y'all sleep
in this community?
Speaker 5 (38:02):
There's just these like little small rooms and then I
would be in one and my dad would be in
the other. Hipperthon walls and other people would live in
the area as well, But they would never talk to me,
which a lot of them would actually either ignore me
or just never talk to me.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
That was like one thing that really.
Speaker 5 (38:23):
Like if I tried to connect with them, it just
couldn't happen if there was a language barrier. Or I
think ultimately it's because my dad give them so much
money they allowed me to be there, and I was
just someone that they were not okay with me being there.
But I was just there because they wanted my dad's money.
That's how I felt.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
I think you mentioned something like this in your show,
But was there a policy to not have children on
the compound?
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Well, there's children there, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
I think it was more that I wasn't I didn't
officially get like the okay from the community. Type of thing,
or like I see were because I wasn't doing any
of the are believing in any of the stuff that
they believed in.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Right, you're just tagging along, right, You're just like hi, guys,
not speaking friends. You're like, sure, when did you leave
that group? And was it you on your own or
(39:29):
was it you Andrew dad?
Speaker 5 (39:31):
So I ended up going to a Ferny Academy, a
private school where I'd have to wear.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
A uniform because one of the.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
German a German teacher lived on the call and taught
there and they needed more kids in order to go
up to grade twelve. So I, through a grant from
the Canadian government, I've became one of the charity cases.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
To go to the school. This was a.
Speaker 5 (40:04):
Super advanced school where I had. I was already behind
in my education and was very much more confused with that.
But I met and became friends with someone where I
just vaguely explained my past to the family and they
allowed me to move in with them, and through that
(40:25):
I would move into Sparwood, which would be like forty
five kilometers away from Jeffrey and like a twenty minute
drive from Ferni that's in the middle and that's where
I live with them for a bit until they wanted
custody of me, which just felt very weird kind of
at the same time, though, it was grade twelve and
(40:46):
people talk about going to university, and I didn't think
about that one like the idea university. It's I legit
only passed grade eleven English because I demolitioned a teacher's
day at a forty percent I mean literally with.
Speaker 6 (41:03):
Their backyard deck physical labor.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, oh my.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
God, and they only bumped it up to a fifty
one raw.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
I talk about this sometimes on here as well as
like I knew I was gonna graduate high school, but
I did not have any plans for my future because
the world was going to end, Like duh, what why
would I be planning anything? And so that's been something
that's been really hard for me as somebody who keeps
living and waking up every morning and the world does
(41:34):
not end it.
Speaker 6 (41:36):
So was there any of that going on?
Speaker 5 (41:39):
One hundred percent? Because the especially with still being in
the conspiracies, I'm like that the world there's gonna be war,
there's gonna be something like that, and so I and
I was still what's the point of with diploma, Like
what am I gonna? I also like didn't There's nothing
that I wanted to do so it. I just thought
(42:01):
the whole thing was stupid, even when like the university
would uh left Bridge University visited us and I was
like confrontational with the recruiter due to a point where
I was removed from class because these people were actually
like wanting to go to university.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
I'm calling it a scam.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
So right right, So you end up with this family
and then they're like trying to get custod of you,
and you're like this is weird, but I don't want
to go to college. Like where how did it all
shake out?
Speaker 5 (42:31):
So then I ended up moving back in with my dad,
who didn't build the house on their land, and I
moved back in. He charged me to rent, and at
this time I was paying for my bills in my
car and then driving the school and working at.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
A and w how old are you? I would have
been like seventeen. Wow, okay, because.
Speaker 5 (42:54):
That's that's what That's what my my dad was. I
was raised that way. If anything I could take away
from my dad is he really did instill a work
ethic in me that will probably be to the detriment
if in terms of like I always work in a
hundred where then I get mad at people if they're
not working at like seventy at work.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
Guys, I'm working this hard, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
But it's also that's flowed into like the promotion of
my show, where I put up like thousands of thousands
of flyers on poles all across LA which also gave
me a new found respect and love for the city
that I didn't have because now I'm finally walking around too.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
If I'm in I guess if I'm in nice.
Speaker 5 (43:38):
Neighborhoods, I walk around Hollywood Boulevard be like, I love
this place.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
But you're like Los Angeles the New Canada.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah. I gotta say, I feel like you've been promoting
it really well because it took me like what's the
number they so you need to be exposed to something.
Maybe it's bullshit, but I feel like people will say
that you need to be exposed to something like seven
times before you remember it or something. And I've been
exposed to the title of your show like numerous times
(44:08):
at this point, and it finally sunk in and I
was like, oh, I got to reach out to that guy,
So you're doing great. So once you were finally out
then so I take it from that point on you
kind of just found a place eventually and started living
on your own and you were like, no more colds.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (44:25):
Yeah. At that point I just kind of was jumping
restaurant at the restaurant and became like a drunk punk essentially,
just drinking, sleeping in, smoking weed, drinking coffee. And then
the other real rebellious face was that was afterwards. I
didn't really drink it all as when I was growing
up or go to parties anything like that. It was
(44:48):
afterwards is where I rejected all those values, right, so
I started looking upon it. And that's of course, that's
where my girlfriend and that's where the idea of twin
Flames stuck with me, was the idea that when I meet.
Speaker 4 (45:02):
Someone, this is going to be the one. And it wasn't.
But that's still the thing that stuck with me the longest.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
That's okay, you still have two more twin Flames to go.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Yes, Like your dad, first of all, like, how long
did it take you to process that you had been
in three different cults.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
A long time?
Speaker 5 (45:22):
I like brought up I would like sometimes when I
was i'd be drunk, I would be like, hey, guys,
I ever played this like decrease for you guys, And
I played them and be like, all right, this is awful.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
So I don't think I ever really processed it.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
And I brought it up a little bit here and there,
and then when I quit my job to do stand
up comedy. I still don't think I quite processed it,
almost until over a year ago when I started writing
about it and then just bringing up I think bringing
up my upbringing to people that weren't raised this way
(45:58):
for people to be like, you're right, that is not
a normal thing that I didn't even think about was
not normal. Like the idea of a sword was like
I still like I thought that maybe would be other
religions kind of do that.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Turns out they don't.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Yeah, Like, through the process of doing the show is like,
this is how you're kind of like digesting these experiences.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
And that was one of the things I was going
to say, which I think is just so important for
everybody to hear and so cool. Whether you've been in
a cult or a high control group or not, is
that you said that when you started doing the show
and doing stand up and like holding the microphone, you
stopped sucking your thumb, which is so indicative of kind
(46:41):
of growth, and ye, very cool.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Yeah it is I and in my show.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
For me, it's such a personal, huge accomplishment that the
fact that the crowd never responds to it is that
I've changed the wording.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
I've changed how it is, I changed inflections.
Speaker 5 (47:00):
It is always maybe one person collapsed, but I feel
like it's just such a one is. People have come
up to me after shows to be like, I suck
my thumb until like, like way old too. I feel
like because it's something that's not talked about and if
you google it, I mean, there's not really a great
community that is propelling it as a normal behavior.
Speaker 6 (47:25):
Right, I can imagine.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Yeah, it really was. What happened.
Speaker 5 (47:31):
And this is very interesting is when my car broke
down in Vegas, I ended up back in Santa Barbara,
where I was still My mom at this point was
losing her memory but still did the decrease. My younger
sister very much so had the same kind of aggressive,
loud yelling tendencies.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
As my mom.
Speaker 5 (47:52):
So I was just in the tent in the backyard
and then I'm like, I got a move, So I
tried to get a flight from la to Montreal, but
it turns out I didn't have the right I had
a passport card, but not a passport, so it's back
to Montana.
Speaker 4 (48:08):
So then I rearranged everything.
Speaker 5 (48:11):
I actually ended up back in Montreal, where I decided
to live there because it's very, very very cheap. And
then I'm there for about a month or two and
my older sister calls me letting me know that my
younger sister kids have been taken away by the Foster family,
and I take this out of the show. And the
(48:35):
guy who ended up assaulting me later on gave his
medication to the kids, and there's it is very much
like to me is I was like, this is nice,
not harsh from like Eddie. Kids growing up in our environment,
(48:56):
we should not be having kids like for me at
least now the west lying stops here. I'm not not
I mean, not even kids. And then they ended up
with like a rich Santa Barbara family. I'm like, they
hit the jackpot here. This is fantastic. Their babies they
won't remember it and they're vie. So I'm like, okay,
this is great, But then my sister then keeps having
(49:18):
kids with the same guy, so I feel like she
remembers the past so much differently than us. She's still
in and does her decrees of the cult.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Oh, she's still in. Yes, and we go with active
member Yes.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
And would go with my mom to Mount Shasta where
the Heart Center would do their retreats. So she stayed
very close with my mom. And I believe that my
mom and dad should have never split and hated my
step mom because she thought they broke them up, and
I this is just my personal belief. Is I feel like,
(49:55):
is she's recreated our childhood, especially with what happened to
her kids getting taken away.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
It's the same exact.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
Holy shit, yeash do you You might not know the
answer to this, but I'm just curious, like if you
have any sense of like when your mom or your
sister are like engaging in harmful behavior or having you know,
mental uh breaks or whatever it is, Like does the
(50:27):
church do they go to the church, Does the church know,
Like is there any response from any leadership, like how
is that handled?
Speaker 6 (50:35):
Or do you not really know?
Speaker 5 (50:36):
I don't think they've ever helped us once and in
terms of it, and it always like was a sense
of my anger is like if we spent so much
time to cream and we gave so much money, and
especially the Heart Center would be like if you if
you donate twenty dollars a day, you're gonna get twenty
ex karma points, you're gonna get good karma back. And
(50:58):
all this bad stuff would constantly happened to us. And
then with the decline of my mom's memory, was just
so much of like there's no returns in any of
these beliefs. And I think that if you were to
bring it up to the leaders, they would just be like,
you got to cree more, or that's God's path. There's
all that kind of just examples other than actually opening
(51:19):
the responsibility that you have to the followers.
Speaker 6 (51:22):
Right, Oh, that's so sad.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
It's so sad to me when like this idea that
so many groups have where like, if something bad happens
to you, it's because you're not doing enough of whatever
bullshit silly ritual or belief they've decided is the answer
to all things.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
You're not good enough, it's just it's your fall. Badness
is just re yeah, re traumatizing. It's so unfair.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
When you have a community, when you have a church,
like you know, not that they should be handling serious issues,
but at least like advising you to get professional help,
you know, say, hey, maybe see a counselor, like any
anything taking responsibilities, anyone related to us, not a church counselor,
like an actual one. Yeah, that's so sad, and I'm
(52:12):
so sorry that your that you experienced this and that
your family didn't get the help that you know, you
guys really needed.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, but it's so cool that you are so connected
to telling your story that it unwound a very deep
habit of sucking your thumb.
Speaker 6 (52:28):
I don't know. That just moved me.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
I think that's so cool. Yeah, people can find the
same thing in their own life. Maybe you know, so
you experienced an injury at the hands of your sister's
ex partner.
Speaker 6 (52:47):
What did that look like?
Speaker 9 (52:49):
Essentially what happened is is that that the ex boyfriend
that I brought up with my younger sister, I was
kind of being the responsible.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
I tried to not be part.
Speaker 5 (53:01):
Of the family drama that was happening at all, but
it was when the lives of other people were being impacted.
I was like, Okay, I gotta at least do something here.
So I was kind of the one that would call
the cops and talk to the police, and so I
became kind of the guy in between my younger sister
and the boyfriend.
Speaker 4 (53:23):
Where then the one time.
Speaker 5 (53:26):
He so he ended up jumping me and and knocked
me out and then put me in a choke hold
and it wherever someone called the cops and stopped it.
But I so I didn't. I didn't see anything.
Speaker 4 (53:43):
So it was just dark.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
But the joke that you kind of like brought up
was like to me, is like it would be I
would rather actually just die and there be nothing then
to then relive the hell that would be decreeing all
the time, that would be this like other realm where
and it sucks now because now I have like a
(54:10):
scar in my eye, I have all this like the
the the justice system did nothing. He was just the
only reason why he was in jail for any period was.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
Because of COVID.
Speaker 5 (54:23):
Then the judge released him and I was in Canada
during the pandemic and doing Zoom court where the prosecutors
were like, you're right, I know this. It sucks to
bring up all this again, but you've got to do
a victim impact statement to the judge and this will
like move whether or not he goes to jail and
(54:45):
court if anyone actually deals with the court system in America,
it's so slow and it all it does is the
amount of times I had the log in the zoom,
only not the talk and then go back in our
day was just a victim. I'm reliving it every single time,
right And then the one time on zoom when I
(55:05):
was supposed to talk, he's like, Okay, we're gonna do
it another day, and he's like, I listened to what
the lawyer had to say, and definitely the victims statement
is going to make an impact. But right now I'm
leaning on him being released into a halfway home. And
I was like, so you just you just basically said
(55:29):
that whatever I'm saying is not gonna You're already leaning
a certain way. And a lot of that is like
I can only imagine other people that are victims of assault.
At least in California I had there's at least a
little bit of an institution that will help with that.
Speaker 4 (55:46):
With with survivors.
Speaker 5 (55:47):
But two, I felt minimized where the prosecution is like,
you got it, write this statement and then it made
no sway on the judge and he was released and
came back and then try to break it to the
house immediately after.
Speaker 6 (56:04):
Oh my god.
Speaker 5 (56:05):
So it's really like it when it I come to
like wanting to talk about things within my show and
use comedy is I hope that and I always want
my comedy to like turn into a thing where people
that have had similar experiences, whether it be religion, are
(56:27):
victim experiences. Is that they probably had the same similar
things happen with the with the not feeling justice in
the American system, and to one thing, feel that you
can talk about it and not have that past own you,
but also turn it around and put the joke on
them and laugh at it.
Speaker 4 (56:48):
That can be extremely powerful.
Speaker 5 (56:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
I'm curious, and someone in the audience asked you this
after your show was over that night, but I want
to get your take on it here now on this podcast.
Have experienced like all of these different types of extreme belief,
even even politically, Like what do you see as some
(57:12):
let's say warning signs to look out for that it
might indicate that you are engaging in extreme belief. Or
cultic thinking, or a harmful group.
Speaker 5 (57:20):
I would say that the early signs is almost you'll
see a change of the vocabulary of So let's say
that you go somewhere and instead of soulmates as twin planes,
when they're creating their own sort of language, it's it's
kind of the first step I feel like is that
because you're making it feel like you're in a community.
Speaker 4 (57:41):
But ultimately, I think I feel.
Speaker 5 (57:43):
Like the warning signs are is that if the values
that the community is based on matter less than what
the leader says, then that's a warning sign. And if
it's you're constantly losing agency in or decisions you can
make in your individual like liberties, that's.
Speaker 4 (58:05):
A sign that you're going on the wrong route.
Speaker 5 (58:08):
Because if it's just a community and you still can
make all your decisions, then it's fine. But if you're
losing agency, that would be the first warning sign that
you're not in an actual community but a cult.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (58:23):
Yes, I love that, And I love what you said
about the values, because so many of these groups do
purport to have really positive values but then tell you
not to examine whether the current practices are actually aligned
with those values.
Speaker 6 (58:39):
I mean, you see you have to protect the leader.
Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah, I mean, you see this so much in so
many evangelical fundamentalists, evangelical groups right now who purport to
be Christian, but then when you actually look at the
behavior of the leaders, that's they're actually very much not
aligned with the values that they say that they have.
And that's true of many, many different kinds of groups,
not just Christian groups. But I love that, and it
(59:02):
sounds like maybe it would be important to examine to
allow yourself to examine the question as like a first
step if you're wondering, right like, what are the values?
Is it aligned? Do I feel like I'm allowed to
ask that question? I think right now? You know, there's
just so much oh this time and culture is insane,
(59:26):
there's so much extreme thinking, and it's more important now
than ever to be to like be examining our beliefs
and be examining our groups. And yeah, I appreciate your
perspective on that. And where can people find you and
where can they see your show?
Speaker 4 (59:42):
Follow me on Instagram?
Speaker 5 (59:43):
Okay, oh it's your Riya Jokes is my handle, but
really you can find all the information on my website
Yah Westman dot com and basically have a residency of
shows at the lyric hyperiod, with the next one being Sunday, February.
Speaker 6 (59:59):
Twenty third in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (01:00:01):
In Los Angeles, And of course you can get tickets
through my show through through my website, but essentially, if
if you're someone who has gone through like these similar
experiences are, it would be like it'd be harder for
you to get it a ticket definitely just use my
website and send me a message and I can gladly
(01:00:23):
comp a ticket for any of the upcoming shows.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
You're so nice and the show is fantastic. I can't
wait for everybody to see it. And thank you so
much for giving us your time and telling the story.
And the takeaway is really that really summed it up
for me, Like I love that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Thank you ver having me on the podcast. It's been great.
Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Thank you to you Riah for being on. Megan. Yeah,
you know you had some some takeaways from this, I
want to hear about those well.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
I think one of my biggest takeaways was the fact
that Rya stop sucking his thumb after he started doing
stand up to me really was it stood out to
me as something that's like that was a really scary
step for him, something he definitely was not brought up
like to do, but it solved something really deep and
(01:01:21):
unresolved with enhim And just how cults and high control
groups can offer this blanket, prescriptive umbrella for everyone and
it's actually like you have to go out into the
world and start experiencing it and find what actually matters
to you to really get to the heart of the
(01:01:42):
issues that you have.
Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Like instead of saying the key to happiness and fulfillment
is this amount of meditations or this amount of demon
prayers a day, it's like, no, for Euriah, the thing
that his you know, that he that gave him purpose
and that gave him meaning was stand up comedy, which
is not gonna be the same no for some other
(01:02:05):
person in that group.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Right, And so it just brings us back to that
fact that people leaving high control groups are who want
to or you know, at people in abusive relationships or whatever,
anyone really like just start following the threads of things
that interest you and see where it leads you, because
that's all we really have in life is like hobbies.
Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
No, we can find purpose, things that give us meaning,
or sometimes the hobbies can be careers Megan, Yes, yes, yes, yes, of.
Speaker 6 (01:02:40):
Course, of course that's what I mean, like.
Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Something to do, just some shit to do.
Speaker 6 (01:02:46):
Just something that like makes you feel meaning.
Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Yeah, totally. And I think in your Eyah's case, like
we've talked a lot about how sharing your story with
people is can be can be the ultimate you know,
once you're ready, because not it's not something that necessarily
should be rushed, but once you're ready can be the
ultimate healing and processing tool because you are using the
negative and often traumatic experiences that you've had to you know,
(01:03:15):
in his case, make people laugh. In other cases, you know,
help others shed light on, you know, harms that have
been done, like you can transform those experiences into good
in addition to finding some other identity outside of the group.
Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Yeah, and there's certainly people that I know who have
like taken stand up and it's become a cult to them.
You know, there's like there's so many you always just
have divine balance and exactly, but yeah, passion, and it
was just such a cool thing to like have this
reflex that you can't get rid of. I can't stop
sucking my thumb And then it just goes away on
(01:03:51):
its own when you start expressing yourself.
Speaker 6 (01:03:54):
It's cool.
Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Yeah, no, no, it is. It is definitely cool. Everybody
should go see his show if you're in La. Yes,
three Colts talk into a Bar.
Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Please do, and as always, please rate us five stars
and give us a review.
Speaker 6 (01:04:09):
Yay, buy some March.
Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Yeah, bit y slash, trust me merch.
Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
And remember to follow your gut, watch out for rad flax.
Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
And never ever trust me.
Speaker 5 (01:04:22):
Bye, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Steve Delemator.
Speaker 6 (01:04:30):
With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word
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