Two Jersey Js: Saying Goodbye to Housewives

Jackie and Jenn still don’t know what is going on with RHONJ, so what would their lives look like after Housewives?   Would they be hurt if they don’t get asked back? Is Housewife fame addicting?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, everyone, Welcome back to another episode of Two Jersey Jays.
I'm Jackie Jennifer, and today we are discussing something very
timely and interesting and it's something that I've been wanting
to talk about because basically, no one knows what's going
on with Jersey that's true.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yes, that's I don't know. I can promise you that.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
I don't think they get just all the time. No, no, no,
none of us. Now everyone has their theories, but basically
I think that a lot of us are at a
point where we're starting to think about what life might
look like without the show. And something about the show
is that it really kind of in a good way.

(00:42):
I mean, it could be a good way or a
bad way, but it like really like takes over your
life if you let it, which it has for most
of us.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
It kind of like you have so much going on.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
It's like every day there's something, whether you're planning something
or attending something, or talking about the show, or like
filming the show or watching the show.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, So it's not like a three month gig, right,
It definitely is, from my experience, takes up more time
than three months months out of the year.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
And you know, for some house I've you know, on
other franchises, suddenly that rug gets pulled out from under
them and they don't have time to even think about
what would my life look like without the show. And
of course, like most of us have beautiful lives. It's
not like anyone's going to go like live in poverty

(01:29):
or like not have anything. But it is a lot
to adjust from.

Speaker 4 (01:35):
I would think every year that you're on is a
year more you have to adjust afterwards. I don't know,
I'm just making that up, but I would think that
it's harder for someone like you, Jack than it would
be for me, just simply because of the fact that I.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Haven't been on as long. I'm not well, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Know about that, because after my second year on the show,
I was way more like obsessed with it than I
am now. Really, yeah, like after my second year, I
was like more and more like I couldn't get enough.
I want all of it, like every extra activity, And
now I'm kind of like I feel very fortunate, like
I would like to come back if the show comes back,
but like I feel very fortunate that I had like

(02:12):
almost seven years of like excitement and like I feel
like I could do something with those open doors now,
you know, like I wouldn't be as devastated I think
now as I would have been.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
If it all got taken away after two years.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
That's so interesting because I think about not just from
our cast, but you know, ogs from all of the
casts and have been lived a certain way for let's say,
over ten years. Well, I think it's really person specific
now even how it's sort of like how it all resonates,
how it pans out.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, you know, like I think there's some like longtime housewives,
so I could just read on them that they're like
okay with moving on. Yeah, like that maybe it doesn't
fit their life anymore, you know what I'm saying. I mean,
it's certainly listen, it's all encompassing.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
It's not this is not the kind of gig where
you don't not thinking about you know, work once you
once you go home.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
It's not a nine to five.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
So yeah, I mean, obviously things changed dramatically, and I
think there's probably such an emotional toll to that. Yeah,
I haven't experienced it yet. Could be that I'm about to,
could be that I am not. Who knows, you know
how it's going to go. But it's going to end
one way or another. It's not this is not going
to be you know, my my trajectory on the show
is not going to be all right.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
It's going to end for everybody at some point, Like
we're not going to be in our seventies on the show, right. So,
but but it is interesting that we are in the
unique position to get like almost some time to like contemplate,
well what it could feel like and to prepare for that,
you know, so that by the time it comes and

(03:45):
who knows, who knows what they're going to do, like
I have, I have seen Bravo.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Like so, Jen and I are not.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Going to be talking about specific people or mentioning specific
names today because there's no reason to do that. But
we're going to talk in generality.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
But I have seen. I just think it's interesting that
we get like that.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Time to prepare, whereas some people just get it old
pulled out potomac.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
Well, also just in terms of I just want you
guys to know that, like we obviously, you know, we
go back and forth with specifics and what do you
think about not just our show, we talk about you know,
all the different franchises, Like do you think this person's
going to go?

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Is this We're going to say? What is this person
doing now?

Speaker 4 (04:29):
But because we are, we're talking and we try to
talk to you guys each week about stuff that's going
on outside of Housewives and stuff that we're dealing with,
you know, at our ages and going through these crazy
life changes. But I feel I feel like this is
you know, it's not just sounds specific to anyone housewife,
Like what happens in your life when something you've been

(04:50):
so devoted to, something that has sort of like taken
over and something that has formed your identity is now
no longer? Right?

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Like what do you?

Speaker 4 (05:00):
Where do you go from there? Is there a way
to prepare? Is your mental health affected? I'm sure that
it is good and bad right specifically like with the Housewives,
I'm sure good things and bad things happen on.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
So how are like if it ended?

Speaker 4 (05:14):
So you know, That's why I said to you, I
feel like it would be harder if I had been
on longer for me, and also because I've been in
this friend of role. I'm not saying it won't be
hard and I can't I can tell you right now oh,
I'll be fine. But the truth is, like when I
found out I was going to be a friend of
instead of a full time housewife, my ego was just
so bent out of shape. So if I picture a

(05:36):
scenario where I get told listen, Jen, we're going on
without you, you know, thank you for coming, and you know,
see you never that, I think that my ego would
be very bruised.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
So I have a question, Yes, do you think it
would be different the way your ego would feel if
the whole show got rebooted versus some people staying in,
some people going yes, it would be different.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean that's just the truth, and I think that
everyone would feel that way.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
I mean, I I know for a fact that my
life is not just this show, because I've had a
long life. I had fifty three years before I got
onto The Housewives of New Jersey, and I will have
not that many, but hopefully a lot more, you know,
years after. And I know that I have a lot
of people in my life and things in my life

(06:22):
and things and people that I care about, and I
life will go on, and who knows, who knows what
the future holds, who knows what twists and turns my
ego will be separate from what my life looks like.
I know that I'm very blessed. I have a great life.
I have struggles, I have heartache, I have you know,
happy times, all of it. But I think it'll be

(06:44):
an ego problem for me. That's the biggest thing. And
I think I can overcome that though, right Like, it'll
be a while of how dare you? And was I?
Or was I not good enough? Or you know, why me?
And depending on how it all pans out, and then
I think my life will move on and I'll be
a hopefully you know, I'll be Jen Fessler and I

(07:06):
was happy before and fulfilled and I'll be happy and
fulfilled after.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, so I feel the same way.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
Do you feel like your life potentially it could get
better once the show if you're not on the show, Like,
do you feel like there's do you see a path
where all of a sudden you're even more fulfilled and
you've it's easier than you thought to let go?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, you know, I think it's it's hard right now
because I didn't have a great season, and so coming
off of a season where I felt like it was
just I think anyone on our cast would tell you
that this season did not feel happy. There was no
joy in this season. There was no laughing. There was
so if you asked me a few years ago when
we all had a great time even after Ireland, like

(07:49):
the best time, I would have.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Been really sad.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Right now, I felt like I went through a lot
this season. I wasn't happy. I you know, I even
had to get rid of social media for a little while.
Social media was very mean to me. So right now
I'm at a little bit of a different place. But
that being said, I would like to I would like
to change.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Like where I left off. Do you know, like I
want one.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
More season to like change that, you know, because I
feel like whatever, Like that's not me what people ended
up seeing, you know. So, but there are things that
I would have more time to put my if I'm
being honest, Like, my happiest thing is writing. I love writing,
and so obviously i'd have more time for writing. But
do I want to write full time? There's I think

(08:37):
that the true answer is there are a lot of
things I would miss and a lot of things I
wouldn't miss.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
Interesting, I think I wonder how it's different like in
terms of reality stars versus celebrities. Right, So, like, let's
say a celebrity gets canceled.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
I think that must be done. I wonder, I wonder,
I mean getting canceled. I don't.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
I can't imagine anything worse than everyone suddenly thinking that
you're horrible.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
It's different, Right, So let's say if you go somebody's
off of reality show. That doesn't make necessarily mean that
everyone thinks that that that person is horrible. It's not
the same as getting canceled. But I wonder if you know,
even not celebrity, but but when something that you've been
doing for a long time you're so passionate about, everything ends, right, Jack,
Like doesn't matter what it is like at some point,
Jeff Wessler is not going to and that's his passion

(09:25):
is I don't know why, but it's being a corporate attorney.
So that's what turns him on. And you know, the
man is sixty two, and I guess at some point
if he doesn't leave, they're going to push him out.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
He's not going to.

Speaker 4 (09:36):
I don't see him being a seventy eight year old
corporate attorney. And then what does that look like?

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Right?

Speaker 4 (09:40):
And that's I mean, that's we're talking about retirement, but
also like how do you how does life change and
your identity and how much of identity. I've only been
doing this for two years. I can feel my identity
getting very wrapped up in it. Right. There's so much
now just in terms of being out in the world
and people recognizing me or fabulous opportunity and getting to
meet people that I would have never I don't been

(10:02):
able to.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
That necessarily ends, to be honest with you, I think
once a housewife, always a house life.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
I mean, if like you ran into Bethany not to
mention any news, but like you wouldn't be like, oh,
the ex house Like she's just like you're a housewife.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
You're a housewife, you know.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, But I don't.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
And that's not even it's not like that's the app
I mean, that is so flattering an ice when people
recognize you. But I guess it's just you know, feeling
like you're just part of something and I don't know,
I don't know that adventure of it coming to an end.
But again, like we're talking about, there's bad stuff that
comes along with it too. It's that it's the brutal
social media of it all right, and it is, it

(10:37):
can be really brutal.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
It was, I know how horrible it's been. Even when
you feel like you're probably loved, I think that you
get a ton of hate.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, everybody gets a ton of hate.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, it's really sometimes that's really hard. That's one thing
I would not miss. But yeah, there are things that
I would miss. But I do also think with Bravo,
they love their own, do you know what I'm saying.
Like they're always bringing in new people, but I feel
like once you're a part of this world, they like recycled.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah yeah, I mean there's there's.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Always there's other Bravo stuff, right, like one of I
know you've been through to a lot of them, but
this was my first Bravo con. It was completely surreal,
you know, and it was like just for me. First
of all, it was meeting these these women that I've
been watching for so many that's just the women. I mean,
I met, you know, the cast from I don't know,
Summer House or whatever, but like, meeting these people was

(11:32):
so crazy. And then all of a sudden, and I'm
sorry you guys, because I think I just say it
all the time. It's probably getting so boring. But for me,
everything is with this comes with like oh my god
at my age, because I think that it's extraordinary at
least it feels like that for me that at age
fifty three I had this, I've had this experience. But

(11:54):
you know, like so like the Bravo con of it
all or I don't know if Ultimate Girls Trip is
out even still a thing, but they do seem to
be bringing you know, a lot of the Bravo lebs
back in and they are getting other opportunities from traders
to villains to dance the bridge. Yeah right, try anybody,
try and keep your corporate lawyer in the office exactly.

(12:15):
But I think that's the you know what's interesting about
our podcast as we talk about middle aged women stuff,
so like to be a middle aged woman and to
suddenly have to shift your life career wise, right, yes,
you know it's different than when you're thirty two years
old like some of the newer housewives and like maybe

(12:37):
this doesn't pan out.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Okay, Well, you have babies at home, You're busy with
the babies. You know, like you could do.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Anything you got, you know, seventy years ahead of right,
it's different.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
You're right, Well, that's yeah, that makes actually that is
actually feels very right ontography because I talk to my
kids and I talk to their friends, a lot of
their friends. Actually that are they'll come to me, I'm
looking for a job. Do you know anybody? Because everything
seemed feels like it's networking these days, right, and these
kids are so intense, and they've left college and right now,

(13:07):
you know, it's harder than ever. And I see these
distraught twenty somethings and I say to them, like, it's
all good. Like you are in your twenties, this is
the time for you to not have a job, find
a job, get fired from a job, get hired for
a new job, wait tables, bartend, find your dreach dream job,
have it not work out, go back to school, whatever

(13:29):
it is, right like that is at least that's Those
are my thoughts that in your twenties it's okay to
not have it all figured out. But once you're a
middle aged woman who's been given this unbelievably unique opportunity,
and I guess harder to picture like, okay, well listen,
that came, but something else will come.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yes, it's easy to think this is it and like
nothing else will come because we're older now and it's
that whole thing that we talked about a few months ago.
It's like that invisible woman when you get into your
middle aged, you know, metopause years, you've become invisible, yeah,
to society, and it's easy to think that this was,
you know, a one in a million opportunity and that
nothing like this will come again, and that you're just

(14:13):
I guess.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
That's it, like that, you know, that's what I think.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Using the mister Clean magic pad on your cabinets. I
don't and yeah, I don't get I don't believe my cabinets.
I carefully love that mister Clean magic.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
But I think.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
That's that's probably what's in the back of a lot
if I'm guessing, because it feels like that's what in
the back what's in the back of mine, like of
our of our psyche sEH.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
I don't think like that.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
I just think I think that. I I mean, I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
I'm just like we're as we're talking it through, like
maybe it's that I find it unlikely and that's sad
and maybe really not true, but that I could get
another opportunity at my age that's going to be as
I mean, would you really want to do another reaction?
I'm not even saying a reality show. I'm saying an
opportunity that moves me. Like, if you ask me would

(15:00):
I like to host a talk show? Would I or
not even host? I don't know what I like to
interview people on the red carpet?

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Would I like to?

Speaker 4 (15:09):
I mean, there's a million things, but I guess in
my mind, because of my age, it feels very unlikely.

Speaker 5 (15:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Right, it doesn't feel like.

Speaker 4 (15:15):
They're going to be knocking at my door to be
the next host of Dancing with the Stars.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
It's just not going to happen.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Right, Just break up with Tom Sandoval. That's all you
need to do, right.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Exactly exactly So, I mean, so maybe that's part of
what's so hard, you know, And housewives are they come
I guess at all ages now, but but the ones
that are not so young. Maybe that's what's hard about
it is thinking, you know.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, do you feel like people age out? Like I
know Karen on Potomac is in her sixties. I don't know,
is there anyone else in their sixties?

Speaker 2 (15:49):
I don't know. Do people age out? I don't know.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I
think a great housewife is a grace. Is like a
great housewife? Right, Like nobody's right.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Yeah, you're totally right.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
So we have a best guest today because this man
has literally spoken to every house since the beginning of time,
and I am very interested on his take on how
people's lives just moved forward after the show. So our
guest today is Dave Quinn.

Speaker 4 (16:25):
So Dave is a senior editor at People and he
works all across entertainment lifestyle news. So now I am
reading off of his bio is he joined in twenty
sixteen as a writer reporter, where he became known for
his Bravaval and Broadway exclusives across print and digital. A
housewives expert. But we do know him obviously from People magazine.

(16:48):
We also know him from a book that if you
haven't read, I would suggest run, not walk, to your
local bookstore or ordered up on Amazon to order Dave's book,
which is I feel like everybody knows it not all
diamonds and Rose and it is a deep dive into
everything housewives.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I mean, he gets into the nitty gritty.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
I don't have to push this book because I feel
like everyone already knows about it, but just in case,
please please pick it up. If you're especially if you're
a Housewives fan, you will freak.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
Let's welcome Dave Yay.

Speaker 6 (17:21):
Hello.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
Hi, Oh you look so cute with your hands. Great cat.

Speaker 6 (17:28):
Thank you? How are my friends?

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Hi, Dave Quinn.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
We're good, so grateful to have you here today.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
So, Jenna and I were just discussing the fact that,
you know, with Jersey on ice and no one knows
what's going to happen, we have the unique ability to
have a few months to kind of think about what
life might look like afterwards instead of having the rug
pulled out from under.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Us, or we might prepare for it and then bes back.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
So knows, right, but we're really curious to talk about,
like what life could look like after Housewives.

Speaker 4 (17:59):
You know, when Jackie actually did she said, you know,
we should have Dave Quinn. Neither one of us thought
that would happen as easily as it did. We were
just got very lucky. I don't know how we got
so lucky, but anyway, just so our listeners understand, hoping
they all already read your book.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
But if not, like Dave is.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
If there's an expert, if there is an expert right
that people want to like contact for everything Housewives, it's
Dave Quinn.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
I mean, that's what so much.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
And every time I'm on the phone with Dave, he
gets at least four calls coming through from other housewives exactly.

Speaker 4 (18:32):
So No, I just think it's I think it's I'm
so grateful to have you because I feel like if
anyone understands the psyche, whether that's a good or a
bad thing of a housewife, it's you. So maybe you
can help us figure this out.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
So I'm going to jump right in, Dave, and I'm
going to ask.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
You, sure when the show ends, for a housewife, whether
they're new or old, like, what happens to life? Does
it get better? Do they do other things? Do they
you know, disappear.

Speaker 5 (19:01):
I think it's a morning process for a lot of people.
I think I would actually say for every person who's
a part of it, whether you're a part of it
for one season or fifteen seasons, it's still a morning process.
Because look, there's a lot of expectations we put on this,
what it's going to be what it's going to feel
like right when you are thinking about you get the
call you want to be a part of it. Now

(19:22):
you've sort of built it up to what you want
it to be, and then you start dealing with the
reality of what it is, right, the tacticalities of filming,
the stresses of getting into arguments with people that you like,
or feeling like people are talking about you behind your back,
not knowing what that means. You know, where you sit,
where you stand, then having to watch the show over again.

(19:43):
First you sit in a purgatory of what the hell
is that well that I just finished?

Speaker 6 (19:48):
Right, what is it going to be?

Speaker 5 (19:49):
What's anyone going to think? And then you have to
watch it and relive it with the with the eyes
of an editor, with the eyes of a national audience,
saying what they think you were feeling, or what they
think your motivations were, or how you should act or
how you shouldn't act, or whatever it is. So all
of that is its own experience, right, And then if
you get used to it, if you've done it three four, five, six,

(20:10):
how many of our seasons even you just kind of
are in a rhythm of it. So when that gets
pulled away from you, whether you leave on your own
or whether someone tells you you have to go. There's
a morning process of it, you know, you know that
filming starts and you're not a part of it, and
you're kind of like, oh man.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
So yeah, that's why I asked Jen, like if she
thinks it'll be easier if the whole show, if our
whole show just gets rebooted, and both of us agree,
of course, that would be rather than the ego, right right,
rather than watching other people.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Be us back.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
What about?

Speaker 4 (20:41):
Well, also, Dave, what about if somebody had had has
a really bad season and you would think they've gotten
so much?

Speaker 3 (20:49):
You know that either of us had a bad season.
I'm obviously, but no, we are.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
Listen, Jackie, obviously it doesn't feel great about last season.
Having said that, though they're you know, there's always a housewife.
I think probably that feels that way. But is even
at that point, housewives generally want to come back, even
if they've had this really shitty season and they are
taking it from all, you know, angles, because you always
feel like.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
You're going to redeem yourself. What do you think, dude?

Speaker 6 (21:16):
Yeah, I agree, and well I would say that.

Speaker 5 (21:18):
I've never spoken to a housewife who hasn't told me
that she wanted to quit. I wanted to leave, didn't
want anything to do with it anymore, no matter whether
she was in the middle of a good season or
a bad season. You know, the stress of people's comments.
I was on the phone with a housewife just earlier
today who was telling me I'm quitting. I'm going to
this reunion and I am quitting. I want nothing to

(21:39):
do with the show anymore. I can't stand it. I'll
make money elsewhere, it doesn't matter, right. But that doesn't
really happen, right, And I know many housewives who have
oh yes, Aulda production and said I'm out, I don't
want anything to do with this, but they still kind
of get back in. So even if you've had a
terrible season, you still kind of want to be a
part of it. And like you said, Jackie, like you

(22:00):
think maybe I can redeem myself. Maybe next time it'll
be better.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
It's so if I was just going to tell this
very quickly because I don't want us to miss a
second with you, but first season, maybe the first week
we're filming, and Jackie and I had like a quibble
and did never it never made it to air, okay,
But anyway, so we had like this quittal. It was
it was my first and I was devastated and I
was I left this scene and I was.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
She's shaking.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
I was so upset, I said, I said to Chris
d Rosa, listen, I can't do this. So I'm sorry,
but you know, tell them fessler out. And he's like,
m hm, why don't you call me in the morning
and tell me that. He said, Okay, I'm not going
to call anyone right now, Jen to report that. Why
you call me in the morning and you let me
know how you feel. And he just laughed like in
my face, which I guess he should have, right because

(22:47):
I was like, you know, the drama of the whole thing, Oh, I.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Mean the number of times that I have said that
I'm going to quit and then I came back, you know.
I mean, like, I think that's that's a part, and
that's a natural response to being upset or or something.
But anyway, do you find that after that morning process?
Do ex housewives in general tend to want to stay
in the spotlight. Do they start like trying to become

(23:11):
an influencer or do a lot of them go back
to a quiet life.

Speaker 6 (23:14):
Well, it's funny.

Speaker 5 (23:15):
I think that it's changed over the past couple of
years because I think, no disrespect, but the advent of
podcasts has really changed the way I have house most
reality career could look like.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
You know, I'm not talking about two Jersey Jays, No, no, no,
but I'm talking I'm just kidding.

Speaker 5 (23:31):
About like even if you think I mean Brandy Glanville,
I think was sort of the first housewife who had
a podcast, but so many other housewives have now jumped
into this and it's exploded into something that they can
still sort of stay in the public eye through it
even if they leave. But it really depends on the person.
There have been a lot of women who have sort

(23:51):
of let it go and said I don't really want
anything to do with this, and I'll see you later,
and they've gone back to their lives of raising their
children or doing whatever they need to do. Those who
are in the public eye beforehand, I think, have remained
in the public eye in some way, shape or form.
There have been plenty who have just tried to be
on other shows and sort of waited for the call back.

(24:14):
It really depends on who you are. And the truth is,
like all those people are who they were on the
show in the first place, So you can always sort
of tell right, Like, you know, if you're somebody on
the show who is really obsessed with the show and
talking about the show and seems to sort of make
their lives about the show, that they're going to struggle
a lot when the show is gone.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Are there?

Speaker 4 (24:32):
Don't you find most housewives are like that or friends
of housewives. Don't you feel like most of them, you know,
do make their life. It's hard not to my experience.

Speaker 5 (24:42):
Yeah, no, you're right, it's really hard not to. And
I mean Jackie will tell you the advice that I
gave Jackie which I met Jackie before she actually premiered
on the show, and I said to her, you know,
Jackie has said, the thing is, you're going to get
a ton of people talking about you on social media,
and I just I really implore you to ignore all
the negative things people are saying about you can't trust them,

(25:04):
like you just have to like take the negative out
of there. And I was like, but you also have
to take the positive out like anything nice someone says
about you. Have to ignore too, because it's equally unreliable because.

Speaker 4 (25:15):
You I pay someone two hundred dollars an hour for
the same message, but go on, kisses me off, Dave Quinn.

Speaker 5 (25:23):
I'll give it to you for free, but you won't listen.
I mean, Jackie did it.

Speaker 6 (25:26):
No one does. It's hard. It's hard.

Speaker 5 (25:29):
It is, And I say that, you know with the
utmost respect and understanding how difficult it is. I don't
have any judgment in this. It's difficult to walk away
from it. It's difficult to get it out of your life.
You know, one housewife, when I was writing the book,
who had been long out of the game, described it

(25:49):
to me as as the as the girl in the
horror movie who makes it to the end and defeats
the bad guy and goes into the room and closes
the door and takes a deep breath, and then the
hand jumps out of the closet and grabs her. Because
there's no escape from it. Because the truth is, it
doesn't matter if you were on the show for one

(26:10):
season or eighteen seasons. Everyone will identify you as a
housewife for the rest of your career. That's what's on
your tombstone.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
That's not necessarily a bad thing if you use it
to your advantage.

Speaker 4 (26:29):
So let's just say it's fame and money, right, So
those are the two things that people become addicted to,
at least that's what most people say, right, What is
it though about the fame? Because I feel like you've
probably done a deep, deep dive into our psychees, Like
what is it that just turns us on so much?
And especially if you think about housewives, so they are
maybe they're getting younger, maybe not, But you're also talking

(26:49):
a lot about middle aged women right that are picked
up out of their lives there I don't know, potentially
mundane lives, not that they're unsatisfying, but whatever, But like,
what is it that becomes so addictive?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Like describe that?

Speaker 4 (27:03):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Like what happens with the fame?

Speaker 5 (27:05):
Well, I want to explain that it's very different than
say Alisa Renna or somebody who's sort of been famous,
been famous before they got on the show, because there
is like a there's a big difference there. The person
I'm talking about is the you know, the Ninny Leagues,

(27:27):
the Jill Zarin, the person who just like existed in
the world and then became famous through the show, and
both of you I think would be an example of that. Right, like, yes,
no disrespect, but.

Speaker 6 (27:39):
The show made untaken and that is listen.

Speaker 5 (27:44):
It doesn't matter whether you get that at eighteen or
you get that at forty eight or whatever it may be. Right,
that is powerful. That is powerful that all of a
sudden people know who you are and value you and
want to know about you and get excited about you
and champion you like you know, the memes, the tweets,
the instagram posts like, it is beautiful, it is enticing,

(28:05):
it's exciting. Fame is addictive for so many people because
it makes them feel good. It just a scratch within
them that they maybe never had itched before. It's not
about money, although that's a part of it. It's nice
to make money. We all like that. It's about notoriety.
It's about feeling like your value, that you matter. At
the end of the day, we as human beings, no

(28:26):
matter whether we're famous or not, we all just want
somebody to say to us, I see you, I hear you,
and what you have, what you are saying has value
to me. You are valuable by what you're saying. That's
all we ever want. That's what I want from my friends,
that's what I want from my family, That's what everyone wants.
But when you're a housewife, when you're in the spotlight,
you're getting that on a national scale. And that's addictive.

(28:49):
And that is what really leads to what I always
call the ego, which stands for edging God out. That
when you start building into your ego and leaning onto
your ego and thinking that like this is who you
really are, your shit doesn't stink right, like this is
what I want to be, you lose sense of what
grounds you.

Speaker 6 (29:08):
To the earth. God could be whatever you want it
to be.

Speaker 5 (29:10):
It's I'm a eleven year recovering alcoholic. My God is
my higher power? Is you know Dumbledore for Christic. It
doesn't matter, you know, it could be anything, but it's
just what keeps you grounded onto this earth. And I
think a lot of these women lose that.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
I hope housewives are listening to this particular episode. I
think that that is and I have spoken about this
so much in therapy, trying to keep that like at
the forefront of what's happening in my mind, you know,
like it doesn't matter. All of these people feeding my
ego or not. I'm still loved worthwhile, I'm still a

(29:48):
child of God, like all of that doesn't it doesn't
change just because the masses, you know, know who I
am all of a sudden. But it's a very it's
a tricky thing not to feed into that, like now
I matter, now I'm special, It's all bullshit.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, I when I'm.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Talking about actually the difference between the feeling of not
being asked back to the show versus a celebrity who
gets canceled, and I imagine that would be harder in
a way to all of a sudden have the world
think that you are terrible for.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Or maybe not, maybe it's the same.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
I mean, it's this feeling of all of a sudden,
you had all of this adelation, and you had all
of this, you know, this stroking and feeding of your ego,
and then it goes away and you have to actually
have some sort of feeling of self worth and sense
of self or you're kind of screwed.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (30:37):
Yeah, I think that people who succeed the most at
it are the people who had that to begin with,
you know, the ones who come to the show looking
to fulfill them in some way and listen. We've also
watched the show tear people's lives apart, and I always
I don't blame the show for Marriage is Dissolving.

Speaker 6 (30:53):
I think that it.

Speaker 5 (30:54):
Elevates and sort of exposes what really was there that
was never addressed. But think about if you're somebody who
comes to the show, you are married, and all of
a sudden, through the course of their time on the show,
you get divorced, maybe you have bad relationships, maybe there's
legal problems. Right, all of these things are happening to
you NonStop.

Speaker 6 (31:14):
You sort of.

Speaker 5 (31:14):
Sort of lose control over who you were in the
first place, who that person was started it. And ye,
change is good. We all need to change and grow
and evolve. But if you don't hold on tight to
what that is and you can always see I always
pay attention to the housewives who all of a sudden
have a new circle around them.

Speaker 6 (31:34):
I call them a lot.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
Of like the bottom fears, the hanger on hers, like
they all start surrounding themselves with these fans who are
obsessed with them and who are just going to yes
them to death. I think both of you know in
conversations we've had, I will never yes you to death,
because what value is that going to bring to either
of us and our friendship. I'll tell you what I
think is good or bad, but I don't judge you.

(31:55):
I don't you know, Like I'm here to love and support,
but ultimately, at the end of the day, you have
to lean on the people that you have in your
life who are like that. You can't fall into the
crowds of the other folks. And that's what really I think.

Speaker 6 (32:06):
People.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
I always get asked like, are these people all the time?
I can tell you if I had a penny for
every time, But are these women really your friends? And
I say the same thing. These are women that I
have grown to love, that have become yes, have become
my friends. What ties us. The tie that binds us
is the housewives. And it's a different thing like my

(32:28):
friends that I've had. It has to be, of course,
because I have history. I have twenty years, thirty years,
I mean my college friends next week, you know, forty
years of friendship. So it's different. I have friends that
I would turn to when things happen. If we our
kids grew up together, you know, they were babies together.
I've loved their kids, They've loved mine. It's a different thing,

(32:49):
like I turned to those friends with different stuff, not always,
you know, I count on the advice of friends that
I've made, you know, with my time in terms of
my time on Housewives. But I have to be able
to have that also, I can't just be surrounded by
just the housewives and just the you know, the people
that I've met through Housewives.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Right, So that actually.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Brings out a very interesting question. Do you find that
when someone leaves the show, do they sort of disengage
from the show entirely? And those friendships do dissolve? Or
do do X house From where I sit when I'm
looking at X Housewives, they don't seem to be like
close friends except for the Dallas cast because they all

(33:30):
went down together. But aside from that, and I love
the Dallas cast, I actually loved it.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
I want Dallas.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
I should have a lot of them are still friends?
Do you think that Housewives do they generally tend to
like stay close with the other people they used to
be on the show with. Is there a jealousy like
the ones that stay on the ones that get.

Speaker 5 (33:49):
Yeah, I mean, but again that's all natural, right, Imagine,
like you get moved off of this thing.

Speaker 6 (33:55):
It's hard.

Speaker 5 (33:56):
I'll name Tamra as an example, because she's somebody who
spoken really clearly about that. When she got fired, it
was really hard for her to sit back and watch
all of these people do this thing that she had
been doing for a while. And her close friendship with
Shannon dissolved at that time because they used to talk
every single day, but a big chunk of what they
were talking about was the show. And now Shannon's not

(34:17):
going to call her to talk about the show because
Shannon is trying to find someone else to align with
on the cast, and it's a game of survivor in
some cases to some of these women, and you know,
Tamra then gets left behind and her feelings are hurt.
That doesn't mean that their friendship wasn't real, but it
does mean that their friendship was based around something that
was really specific. Think of it just as work friends,

(34:38):
like I have really close work friends who were like
my life when I worked at that company, and then
I don't work at that company where I rarely talk
to them at all. And it's not because I didn't
care for them. It's not that that didn't matter to me,
but it's when we didn't have that thing sort of
uniting us, it was really difficult for us to sort
of maintain that daily conversation. Was I jealous of their

(34:58):
success now, but.

Speaker 4 (35:01):
You also didn't have to see like that's that's the mind,
that's the mind. F right is like unlike you, like
you left the job and you weren't keyed into what
was happening at the job every day, and there's like
the potential here you leave this job and you still
see your work friends.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
Every day every week. Would you watch the show?

Speaker 2 (35:17):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
I don't know, but I would potentially like that hard
you can It's not you know, it's hard to let go.
And even if you're not watching, you're hearing about, you're
seeing the stories. I'm sure it's very tempting to want
to know what's going on in this in this world
that you were once part of.

Speaker 5 (35:31):
Yeah, but Jackie, I'll say that, like, I do think
that whether you talked about the fact that like it
would be easier if the whole show got changed and
we just are watching new people.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
I don't well egoize, but I think if you.

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Ask any of the New York Housewives, they wouldn't feel
that way. I think that and Sonya and Ramona and Derinda,
they all had a hard time watching that other cast that.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 6 (35:56):
You've tossed me aside. Yeah, and I don't matter.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
And now you're saying this matters and they're not better
than me because I brought this, this and that and
they didn't bring that up.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
Yeah, No, you're right, and think about that. Yeah, can
I ask you?

Speaker 1 (36:09):
And I know that you're not the network obviously disclaimer,
like none of us has any inside information. So this
is just like all educated opinions. But do you feel
like people age out? So like I was saying that
Karen is in her sixties, I really don't know anyone
else in their sixties in the Housewives spear.

Speaker 4 (36:28):
Maybe I'm getting there. I don't know if I'm in
the spear or not anymore, but I'm definitely.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Into No, there's a lot in there, you know, in
their late fifties, mid fifties. But I don't know, what
do you think, like, are we going to start seeing
the era of housewives in their mid sixties.

Speaker 5 (36:44):
I don't think that age has anything to do with that.
I think storyline has something to do with that. If
they feel like there's nothing more to explore in your story,
that's when I think the network and the producers ultimately say, well,
I don't know how much more we have here with
this person. I don't really think it's you know, and
Huger could still be providing incredible storyline for her seventies

(37:04):
for them, and they'll eat it all up if that's
what they're getting. As long as she stays connected with
her castmates, has real relationships with them, you know, is
comfortable filling with them, and there aren't like blood feuds
that's going on where nobody wants to fill with each other.
As long as that continues down the path, Karen will
stay fine, you know. And she's smart. She sees herself

(37:24):
as an onion who reveals things about herself every.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
Single Oh I love her. Yeah, I love Karen.

Speaker 5 (37:29):
But I don't necessarily think it's age, you know, because
it really just ultimately depends and they're always looking at
it as a makeup. It's like, what, you know, this
puzzle piece, Like what puzzle pieces go together? How can
we make up this cast to make them make sense
in the best possible way. I think that that's how

(37:49):
you stay relevant by having things about yourself that are
worthy of seeing and exploring. And even those two people say,
well they don't have any more storyline, they still provide
something by being active in the relationships or active in
the conversation or you know, storring the pot or whatever
it may be, that they still have value.

Speaker 6 (38:08):
In the eyes of the network.

Speaker 5 (38:09):
But ultimately, the network and the producers want long term
housewives because the fan base likes them. They stay connected
to them, like if they didn't, they would be replacing
them every season.

Speaker 4 (38:22):
Well would you give in terms of just advice? Like
you've seen it, You've seen it in a way that
I don't think really anyone else has, right because I
don't think that many housewives have opened themselves up to
letting a writer into their lives. Like everybody seem to
seems to have embraced you. But what advice would you
give to someone who was on the show and now

(38:42):
is not Like, what would you suggest that they do
to feel okay about it? Is there advice you could give?

Speaker 6 (38:50):
No?

Speaker 5 (38:50):
I think it's like any sort of loss right, you
need to be present in your emotions and recognize that
there's there's no right way there's no shoulds. I really
believe in living a shouldless life and sort of getting.

Speaker 6 (39:04):
That out of your head.

Speaker 5 (39:06):
You know, we only learn how to deal with things
when you've experienced them before. Your first breakups, the heardest breakup,
and then the second and the third and the fourth
get a little easier, right, because you know what it's
like to go through that thing. It's the same sort
of thing. Right, you've never been on television and then
lost a job. This is the first time you're experiencing it,
So it's going to feel hard, and that's okay, Like

(39:28):
you have to allow yourself the space to feel angry.
I mean, there were days that I would speak to
I'll use Tamras example again. There were days that I
would speak to her where she was grateful that she
had been fired from the show, and then she was
pissed off that she'd been fired for the show, and
then she's jealous. Sometimes within the same day, those emotions
would arise. Yeah, I would just keep saying to her,
it's okay that you feel those ways. Congratulations, you don't

(39:50):
have to there's no should here. I'm not telling you
should feel any other way. Feel the way that you
feel and let those things build themselves.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
And then what then what do you do?

Speaker 5 (40:00):
And then you do what you think is important to you,
if it's important to you, where you feel as though,
you know, I got a lot of gratification over being
a spokesperson for whatever it may be. You know, I
love that I had this platform where I could talk
about you know, divorce or eating disorders or whatever it
may be. Right, use that to your advantage and find

(40:21):
places that you can still maintain those sorts of things.
If you just want to be famous, to be famous,
that's a lot harder, right, because like that's that will
never you will never really scratch that itch. No matter
how many shows you end up on or how many
whatever magazines, billboards, whatever, that will never be enough if
that's all you're chasing. But if you're trying to find

(40:43):
something like that actually satisfies you, then I think that
you can find other places to do that.

Speaker 6 (40:49):
I love you that.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
I like going over this, like in therapy before is
took like, what are your intentions? If the intent is
she said, I'm telling you she said exactly what he
just said. If the intention is just to be famous,
she said it way more eloquently than I'm about to.
But like basically she was saying, you're screwed. Like, if

(41:11):
that's what you're going into this four is just the fame,
it's your You're in trouble. If there's if there's something else,
What is it that you're looking for?

Speaker 2 (41:21):
What is it that you're feeding?

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Right? Like for me, I said to her, I always
wanted to kind of be on stage. I was as
a kido as an actress, terrible at it, but I
like the idea of making people laugh. That just always
not to be a stand up comedian, but I just
I like being the center of attention of making people
and being goofy, you know, that sort of like always
turned me on. So like if that's part of the intention,
here where else could I do that? I don't know,

(41:43):
you know, like if the intention is just the fame,
it's not going to go well for you.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, we were talking about the fact that, like Jen
was thinking that the longer you've been on.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
The show, the harder it would be for you.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
But I was saying that after my like second season,
I was like, give me more, give me more, you know,
and like I think it would have been harder for
me at that stage because now I've experienced a lot
of the ups and downs, and I feel like I've
had it for a long time, and like, I don't
think i'd be as devastated now as I would have
been right when it was really heating up, when it

(42:15):
was my whole life.

Speaker 6 (42:17):
Yeah, and I get that.

Speaker 5 (42:18):
Listen, there's a feeling of there's so much more I
wanted to do this, like this loss of possibility, right
is what you're warning when that happens, And yeah, that's
that's equally difficult. There's there's no right or wrong. I
don't think it would be better or worse in any way.
And the truth is, Jackie, like you may say that
right now, but if it happened to you and you

(42:40):
felt bad, that's also as I'm saying, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, somebody once made a comment and we're not looking
for specific names, but that nobody quits the housewives, like
what very rare exception.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Everybody gets fired? Is that true? Or do a fair
number of people quit?

Speaker 6 (43:04):
I don't think that's true.

Speaker 5 (43:05):
I think that many people do quit in ways that
we don't necessarily see as quitting. Putting down a boundary
and saying, you know, I want to be paid this
much or I want to be this status, and then
whether they offered a status that's less than that, saying
no thanks that is still like walking away on their terms.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
I'm happy to know that a lot of people have
done it.

Speaker 5 (43:28):
Now that being said, there have been you know, we
so view like firing as like a consequence thing, like
you've done something wrong, you're fired. That's not really how
the network sees it or how the production company sees
it. It's more as like, do we want to move forward with,
like what you have to offer, what your storyline is,
what's available right now. It's not as personal as like

(43:50):
or as black and white, I guess I would say,
as like a good or a bad. But there have
been plenty of times when they've said like, we don't
necessarily know if this is right for you, and the
person responding has been like, you're right, I don't want
to come back either, like this is right for.

Speaker 6 (44:02):
Both of us. Does that mean they were fired? Yeah?
I know.

Speaker 5 (44:05):
I contam like six people who've had that experience that
they've been fired. I don't know if they've been like yes,
I guess they were asked not to return, but they
were also saying, I don't really want to be a
part of this.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
Yeah, I wouldn't. I don't think I would consider that
a firing.

Speaker 5 (44:19):
But I think that the person who says that, who
has been saying that I'd been vocal about saying like
no one's ever been fired before, that for them is
like a point of pride, as if like, I'm better
than everybody because I had the gumption to walk away.
I don't think that you can.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I know what you're just saying about.

Speaker 6 (44:37):
You're not better.

Speaker 5 (44:38):
You're not better than somebody who stayed until they were
let go, because the truth is, you know, you didn't
really conquer anything.

Speaker 6 (44:47):
Like we all are still in this pot. We're all.

Speaker 5 (44:49):
I have not met a single housewife who after Housewives
has been able to escape the name housewife. Regardless of
whether you're doing incredible things, it's still a part of
who you are, right, you know, Lisa Renna is doing
awesome things, but people are still going to be like, oh,
from the Housewives, Like, yeah, still sticks with you.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
I know, Lookay Kelly Bensimon, she was like the most
successful broker.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Oh my god, yeah she's know that huge.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Real estate broker, But like still when she's described in
page six, it's you know, ex housewife.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
Yeah, and you know, another housewife told me this one day,
which I thought was really interesting. She said, you know,
it's been sixteen years since I've been on the show,
and everybody still brings this up. You know, you mentioned
Kelly Bensimone. People will always go up to Kelly Bensimone like,
oh my god, it's scary island.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Right.

Speaker 5 (45:36):
She will live with that for the rest of her life.
So there's a part of that too, right, It's like
you're stuck with this thing that's who you are. We
haven't really had many years, you know, when you think
about reality TV sort of became what it looked like
to us to understand today pretty much from the year
two thousand on. The Real World had existed in nineteen

(45:58):
ninety two, but it was developed and pushed into the
cultural zeigeist with Survivor and then such. So what twenty
four years, twenty five years of really understanding about what
reality TV does to people, what the psyche is. I
don't think we have enough data to truly understand what
it's like to be far enough away from it to
see the long term effects that it actually has on you.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Do you think they'll be talking about that one day?
And yeah, and mayb.

Speaker 4 (46:22):
People are writing thesis about it now. I mean probably
if they're smart. I think it's fascinating and I think
it's frustating about also, and I want your opinion on
this too, But like the viewers, how has our culture changed?
And obviously social media has played a part of that,
But how's reality TV played a part in changing of

(46:43):
our culture in the way people treat each other?

Speaker 6 (46:45):
And Oh, it's shifted.

Speaker 5 (46:46):
And that's why I think you actually see when you're
talking about this idea of how people react to it,
that's what you're seeing two different reactions. Like the women
who started the franchise, the Vicky Gumbelson's of the World,
for example, really struggle with being off the show and
the show existing without them because they're like, well, I
made that. I was I just existed and I made that,

(47:08):
and now who are you all people coming in and
pretending like you're doing this thing that I created? Right?
But the show has evolved. When both of you joined
the show, it existed before Jackie. You knew what the
show was, you knew the players, you paid attention, right,
So like you were aware, Jennifer, of who these characters.
You saw it through your friend, you understood the tenor

(47:28):
of it. And a lot of people come in with
that with an awareness in many ways of how I
want to present myself, how I want to act, what
my sort of what this could do for my business.
That doesn't mean that that actually happens, but they are
self producing in their head of like, Okay, I want
to appear this way, and that's exactly how they would

(47:48):
be off camera, right, like they would walk.

Speaker 6 (47:52):
Into a.

Speaker 5 (47:54):
Party and still act that same way, like I want
to present myself this way. There are people who are
conscious of how they are viewed. There's something wrong with that.
I grew up in a household where there were two households, right,
the one that everyone looked at from the outside in
and the one that I lived in were very different households,
and people live like that all the time. But the
difference is now we sort of see what the show

(48:16):
can do with the tenor can be and like it's
hard to get back to that. Those Vickis, those Niemis,
those Jills, those early season sort of people who are
just living and figuring it out because it doesn't really
work that way anymore, and as viewers, we therefore view
you through the lens of what I know, Oh, she's
doing this for a storyline, right, How many people say

(48:36):
that to you where you've heard it that other people.

Speaker 6 (48:39):
Say, yeah, and that.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
That really is camera times. She's doing it for camera times.

Speaker 5 (48:46):
You're not doing it. You're not doing it for that.
You're living and existing. But you are being hit with
that because that's what the viewers have come to expect
over the years.

Speaker 6 (48:55):
It's really hard. It's so hard.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
And what the trajectory with all of the streaming services
now where there's just like constant new shows being turned out.
I feel like on our network like they use the
in house people like as long as you don't burn
a bridge and sue them, like you're always kind of
just like in the mix, you know.

Speaker 6 (49:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (49:16):
I mean that's the thing that I think that I
have come to really love about Bravos so much, And
what really attracted me as a viewer is that it
felt like there was a universe almost of characters who
were sort of appearing in various places, even if you
consider Watch What Happens Live one of those places, like
it felt like this family of people. And I think
that's how Bravo viewers feel about the show and sort

(49:39):
of feel about the network. And that's why we watch
so many of the shows on the network, you know,
where most Bravo viewers don't just watch one show.

Speaker 6 (49:47):
We watch like ten.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
Shows, you know, like we're paying attention to Summerhouse and
Housewives and Top Chef.

Speaker 6 (49:52):
And like we're watching it all.

Speaker 5 (49:54):
I don't know many other networks like that. I don't
think people watch everything on HBO. I don't think they
want Maybe HGTV, they'll watch everything, but like it's very different,
and EAHGTV.

Speaker 6 (50:05):
Is the other network I can say it's similar to
Bravo in the sense that they that.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
I love house Hunters so much.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Evan and I play it like a game show. We
like get to choose and then somebody it's the win.
We used to keep track of.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
The winning and losing.

Speaker 4 (50:18):
Oh that's fine, But I think also that's probably why
that this is why the viewers become so incensed, because
you're not just fighting with someone, you're fighting with their
best friend. Like and you know what I mean, Like
you're attached to someone you've been in your mind And
I've said this about myself, Like, you know, I've been
friends with Melissa Gorga for years. She just didn't know me, Like,

(50:40):
you know, we've been hanging out for the past fourteen years.
So if you're going to and I'm not just saying
I just use the name Melissa, but it could have
been any of the women that you know been.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
On the show.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
And now you know you're watching somebody hurt your friend
or hurt this person that you've like been thinking about
that you sometimes wake up thinking about thinking about their kid,
are you thinking about their life or and it becomes
it's such a weird dynamic.

Speaker 6 (51:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (51:05):
I remember when I when I interviewed Jen for the book,
when I interviewed Carol Raswell, she told me this that
totally unlocked it for me. She was, like, every argument
you see on the show is about the show. They
just aren't telling you it's about the show. But your
piss that I didn't invite you to a party is
because I want to get that camera time and I
don't want you to be not talking.

Speaker 6 (51:24):
To me like that.

Speaker 5 (51:25):
That's a part of it, right, or like I'm upset
at you for what you said to me because I
know how it's going to play in the in the universe.
I know that I'm going to have to deal with
this accusation, this lie that you said about me, for
the rest of my life, and like that is a
big part of it as well, that we don't really understand.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
What do you think is going to happen with our show?
When do you think we'll hear anything? Again? We know nothing.
Nobody has any insider Yeah.

Speaker 5 (51:57):
I'll just say I have no insider info either, But
the only thing that I can look to is experience.
I don't think the network is going to do anything
different than they've done in the past. So what have
they done in the past? The Real Houses in New
York City was a full reboot. The Real Housewives of
Atlanta was sort of a mixed reboot, right They say,
we brought in new people and use some of the
characters that we had on the chess board. I think

(52:19):
if I was a betting man, I would imagine that
producers right now are casting a lot of different women,
meeting with them trying to figure out what it could be,
and then once they have a good list of ten
or twelve whatever potentials, they may then start figuring out
how to arrange the pieces on the board. Do we

(52:40):
do a full reboot or do we do a half
and half? And if we do a half and a half,
who stays, who goes? What sort of relationships are there
that exist? And they'll probably make that decision from there on.
The Real House Was of New York City reboot was
a success in a lot of people's eyes because it
felt like a real group of friends and there's a
lot of dynamics there, but the ratings haven't been as

(53:02):
high as the Real Housewolves in New York City originally was.
So to take a risk on sort of starting fresh
is very very hard and it well, now we'll see
with Atlanta because it's the first one that's kind of
done this.

Speaker 6 (53:15):
How does that work?

Speaker 5 (53:16):
I mean you could say Miami sort of did it
as well, but that was like had been off the
air for so long. So those are I think the
two obvious options. And it seemed when I look at
the timeline, about six to eight months before the network
announced any decisions on either of those casts, So I
think that's what it is. I don't think they want
to think about it at all right now. I think

(53:38):
they want everyone to shut up, and I don't mean
you guys, I mean.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
The fans I have.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
I haven't been given an interview in months.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Like I said, no to everything, I just I don't
want to talk negatively about anyone on this cast.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
I don't want to say anything. I have not said
a word. Other peop have said a lot of words
about me.

Speaker 5 (53:57):
But I've noticed that too, Jackie. But I think they
just want everyone to be quiet right now, to quiet
the noise so that they can make decisions with like
a fresh sort of unbiased mindset. And they can't do
that right now when everyone's yap, yap, yappen right. So,
and I am talking about the fans in this case
because that is a big part of it. The fans

(54:18):
demanding certain people leave or go is not really healthy
fort to that some of it. Yes, they do surveys,
they pay attention to sort of who has popularity, but
ultimately they've fired a lot of people who people really loved,
and they've gotten a lot of flak for that. They

(54:39):
fired Pedra after season nine of Atlanta, and the fans
were really upset that they didn't get to see a
redemption arc from her, and that's why the in moving forward,
they tried to stick with people even after they had
had bad seasons, to see if there was opportunities for
groups to shift and change. There's no sort of there's

(55:02):
no black and white with it. It really is great.
They're really like figuring it out as they go.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
I have a question because you watched The Housewife, these careers,
these women that have really gone through it, and then
they went, would you a woman you love? Your best
friend says they want me on. I'm just curious and
you have to You can't just say, listen, do what's
good for you? Like, what do you think someone you love?

Speaker 5 (55:28):
Oh God, it's so funny that you asked that question,
because I think that if you called up Nina Ali
from the Real house So I said, Dubai, who I
knew before she became a housewife, she will tell you
the story about how I told her don't do it.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
Really no, because most of the people that I love
said don't do it, and they are not you. They
don't have the insight and they haven't been you know,
they don't have all the information like you do.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
I just, ultimately, and I said it to her in
the sense of, like, here's all the things that you
need to be aware of and don't do it. If
you're not going to be able to do this right,
don't do it. If you're not going to be strong
enough deep down to love yourself no matter what anyone says,
I couldn't do it. If you say this all the time,

(56:13):
if you threw a glass of wine in my face,
I would apologize to you. I would say, I'm so
sorry I made you do that. I do not love
myself that much. I do not have that strong sense
of who I am enough.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
How is that possible? I know, serious everybody you enough
a lot.

Speaker 5 (56:29):
Of abandonment issues, but people who I thought loved me
who didn't. And when you don't have that unconditional love
you know, rue says all the time, RuPaul, if you
can't love yourself, how can you expect anyone else to?
I struggle with that a lot, and I would not
want to be on this show because I would really
struggle with what people say. I mean, I don't have
social media at all right now, I've deleted everything.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
How does that feel it feels?

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Do you feel disconnected?

Speaker 6 (56:57):
Yes? But also okay with that?

Speaker 5 (56:59):
Like I got rid of it because I went through
a really difficult breakup, and I didn't want to be
able to see what that person was doing, or have
that person see what I was doing, and feel as
though I was posting things for someone else or for
anyone else, like to, you know, to show myself as
either healthy or unhappy or whatever it may be. I
just didn't want to feel that pressure of being in

(57:22):
that environment.

Speaker 6 (57:23):
And without it, I feel really relieved.

Speaker 5 (57:25):
But I also feel like I'm missing out on things.
I feel like there's a whole life that I don't know.
It's funny. I saw Canda's Dillard. I went to her
baby shower on Saturday. Oh oh, she looks so beautiful.

Speaker 6 (57:38):
I went down to d C.

Speaker 5 (57:39):
She looks absolutely gorgeous. It's so kind of her to
invite me, and we've built a good friendship over the years,
and I was like, I'm so so happy for you,
and I'm like, how's the baby. She's like, oh, he's
killing me. I go, oh my god, it's a boy.
She's like, oh yeah, she was like I announced that
weeks ago. Well I didn't know because I had I'm
not on social media. It didn't exist.

Speaker 6 (57:56):
Until she told it to me with her own voice.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
So yeah, right, yeah, but like the real life connections.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
I mean, you went off for a little bit the
nineteen nineties again, Yeah, I went off for a few
weeks just because I knew that I wouldn't deal so
well with all of the bad stuff. You know, But
you know, it's all, it all just exists in your little.

Speaker 4 (58:19):
Box, saying I don't know if you guys feel like this,
but like, there are certain things that people can say
about me on social media and it doesn't bother me
at all. And usually that's around my physicality, Like I
don't you think I look like a man? I think
that's funny. I don't have I don't get like thrown
by that. And it's not because I think that I
have plenty of insecurity about the way that I look.

(58:42):
But for some reason, that kind of stuff doesn't hit me.
It's other stuff. It's the she's fake, Yeah, she's you know, uh,
because that's who you are, like me like that. Yeah,
the silly stuff doesn't really get to me. It's just

(59:03):
it's it's the really the stuff that goes after my
character that really like bugs me.

Speaker 6 (59:08):
And look, I'm not on TV.

Speaker 5 (59:10):
But when people have said that about me, when people
have said things about me that I think we're against
what my character is and questioned my integrity and made
assumptions about things that I've done, And that's.

Speaker 6 (59:22):
Really been hurtful to me because at the end of
the day, that's not who I am, like.

Speaker 5 (59:26):
I care so deeply about being able to put my
head down at the end of the night knowing I
haven't hurt anybody.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Well, I think that I think Vegas needs to start
taking odds on who's going to come who's going to
come back, because.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
It is a hot topic.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I don't want to keep you any mind, but no,
I want to keep you forever.

Speaker 4 (59:47):
But so maybe we need a part too. I was
about to say that about what happens next. I just
think it's so all of this is so fascinating.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
What is it going to say? No, No, guys, once
was enough.

Speaker 5 (01:00:00):
I care deeply about both of you. I'd be happy
to be here anytime. I'm honored that you asked. And honestly,
what I hope that fans get when they sort of
see these things is that these are real people. You
are actually real, You're not a character, You're not scripted,
no one's told you what to say, You're produced don't
get me wrong. You know, like they've put you in
situations that you normally wouldn't be in, but there hasn't

(01:00:24):
really been a care for how you solve those. You know,
when all of the things happened to both of you
this season that happened, did anyone call you up afterwards
and say, how are you doing?

Speaker 6 (01:00:35):
What can I help you with?

Speaker 5 (01:00:36):
No? I mean that's not really there for you. And
that's so hard to have to just go through it
without really having anyone taken care of your mental health.
If anybody was going to be a housewife, I would
say get a good therapist right from the get go.
Hire a social media manager who is fully in charge
of all of your social media so you never even
have to look at it once. And I know people

(01:01:00):
who are always like my makeup artist showed this to me,
but I.

Speaker 6 (01:01:03):
Never check it. No, you check it.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
You're all looking because you're obsessed. And I get it,
But you really have to protect yourself from these things. Yeah,
and remember the people who are in your life who
actually want who care about you and don't want something
from you, who aren't looking for anything from you, They're
just here to give to you with whatever they may
be able to offer you because.

Speaker 6 (01:01:26):
A lot of people pop around you.

Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
And they just they want what can I get from you?

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
And I love that and I love you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Do you ever want to be a therapist?

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Yeah? I could see that on you as a side joy.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
Uh No, I've never wanted to do that because I'm I.
I think I would really, I think he is.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
He is the go to for I think you'd be
like the best sponsor ever. Like if I was an AA,
I would not let you get out that door.

Speaker 5 (01:01:54):
That's really what I need to do. I forget being
a therapist. I need to build like a housewives and
not miss. Yes, that's a build.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
We can all sit around a room and like tell
our stories my god like circle of trust.

Speaker 6 (01:02:12):
Right, that's what?

Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
And when is the way you need to do is
write another book? Oh yeah, we're waiting time, poor.

Speaker 5 (01:02:22):
Suffering agent who is always like, when is that proposal
coming up?

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
I'm not fair, it's not nice.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
It's enough.

Speaker 5 (01:02:28):
Now?

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
How many times can we read Diamonds and Jose Dave?
We love you.

Speaker 5 (01:02:32):
I love you both too, and honestly, no matter what happens,
you both matter. I just want to let you know
that I know that's so silly and stupid to hear.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
No, it's not.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
It's not as you're saying. I'm like, Jackie, I hope
you're taking that in. I'm taking that in no seriously
because it's like, it's not just words. It actually you're
saying something important because it's because the show makes you
think that you can. It's very tricky, like you don't
matter because you're on this show, and you don't matter
because of all of a sudden you're famous.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
You just matter period.

Speaker 5 (01:03:01):
The things that you have given people are powerful. We
all look at the show and quote the silly fights
and you know, the outrageous moments. But the truth is
the majority of people feel connected to reality and reality
stars because they see something in them that they've never
been able to do. Do you know women understood how

(01:03:22):
they could get through a divorce from watching Housewives go
through it? How many women understood how they could get
through domestic abuse after watching Taylor Armstrong talk about it
and the River Housewives of Beverly Hills, or an eating
disorder after watching someone like Jackie Goldschneider talk about it
so passionately and publicly and show the good and the
bad and the ugly around it. These things are the

(01:03:42):
things that matter. Representation matters, so and I can tell
you that as a gay man who grew up at
a time where I thought everyone was dying of AIDS,
I thought that was my future. I was going to
die of AIDS. And then reality TV showed gay people
and over the course of twenty years, it's shifted the
entire cultural conversation around homosexuality. It's the same thing were
mattering to people, not through your silliness, but through your

(01:04:03):
examples of who you are. You walking out of that room, Jen,
saying I can't be in here is something that other
women are watching and saying, oh my god, I can
remove myself from situations. And it's I mean, you're saying
to yourself, why would they think that? That's ridiculous? But
it's true.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
You know how many people have said out Dave, that's
so funny because I had mixed reviews on it, But
so much of what you just described of women saying
to me, I don't Jenn, I felt so good about
you walking out of that room.

Speaker 6 (01:04:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
I didn't think it through in that moment. I mean,
I wasn't you know, it was just something that I
needed to do for myself.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
But my walking out of the room was a meme,
so we could end up walking out of the room conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 5 (01:04:42):
Well, remember yourself in that situation when you think about
what's it?

Speaker 6 (01:04:45):
Could it be? Oh my god, this is going to
be gone? What do I do?

Speaker 4 (01:04:48):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:04:48):
If those thoughts come into your head, if you start
talking down to yourself, remember that you actually had impacts
in people's lives. That's the thing that matters the most.
And you can still find ways to make impacts in
their lives. You just don't have to do it while
also calling someone a bitch or horror flipping or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
And on that note, love you so much, Thank you
so much, seriously.

Speaker 4 (01:05:12):
Love you so much. It has I mean, I feel
like there's so we're going to do a part two.
There's going to be a doesn't even have to be
about leaving. It could be staying, it could be going,
it could be whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:05:21):
It is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Just you are, you are a master.

Speaker 6 (01:05:25):
Yes, it's very kind.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
I'm here and we love you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (01:05:29):
Congratulations on the continued sex of the second Let me
try that again.

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
We don't have sex yet, but who knows if we're
out of a job, we may want to make people watch.

Speaker 5 (01:05:40):
Congratulations on the continued success of the show.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
I'm so hapd to you.

Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
Thank you, yes, okay, love you you, Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Bye.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
I could talk to Dave all day, and not just
about housewives.

Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
You could tell that he's just you know, a lot
of people also that I think, I feel like we're
in a program or in a twelve step program. There
just they just have more insight than the rest of us.
I used to be and I used to go to
overreaders anonymous for years in my twenties when I was,
you know, battling blameia, and sometimes I talk to someone
like Dave and like, I miss it, I missed the meetings.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yeah, well yeah, to be honest, recovery, you become a
deeper thinker, like you start to think about all the
things that make you special and why you thought that
the thing you were abusing made you feel good, right,
you know, so you start to reckon with all of that,
which I think will actually really help me if the
show does end like that feeling of you know, when
I first started the show, it really I was addicted

(01:06:34):
to it because it made me feel special, and over
the years, I've kind of realized the other things that
make me feel special, So it's not just this anymore,
which makes me feel like I would.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
Be Okay, hello, I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
But Dave is so brilliant we do need a part two.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
He is just there's just something about that guy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Yeah, and I always say this, there's a few things
from the show that like, no matter what happens with it,
I don't think I would have recovered without Yeah, you
could do it so publicly, and like my friendship with
you is just something that, no matter what happens with
the show, will always well, it's just so beautiful and
like they're just going to be grateful for the things

(01:07:13):
that came from it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
Yeah, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 4 (01:07:16):
Yes, all right, you guys, Like, Yeah, I feel like
I wish I could hear from you guys more. I
don't know Jack and our producers on I mean, had
it like you guys, maybe on our even Instagram, our
Instagram page, just like there's things you feel like you
would want us to discuss. Yeah, looks like we're having
some more episodes that we're getting. Uh, just a little

(01:07:38):
sidebar here, but we did get renewed for another season.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Season is that what.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
We call this a season? So I guess another year.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
So I don't know about what's happening uh for the
Housewives of Jersey, but the Jersey Jays are going to
see again next season.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:53):
And on that note, on that note, so yeah deep DMS,
if you couldn't there's anything you guys think that we
would talk about out that you'd be really interested in.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Fabulous Yeah Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Love you guys, Thank you so much. Bye guys,