November 19, 2019 • 47 mins
What do you think of someone who doesn't want children?
Teddi explores this and it's a growing trend. She talks to Mary, a woman who simply doesn't want kids. Why is there so much shame and judgement? Why is it embarrassing or considered weird?
Teddi asks Professor Amy Blackstone, who studies childlessness and the childfree choice, to share her knowledge and expertise. Filmmaker Maxine Trump joins in about her new documentary TO KID OR NOT TO KID.
And our own Easton, admits he and his wife will likely not have children.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Teddy t PO. Hi guys, welcome back to
this week of Teddy Teapod. Thank you so much for
emailing in. We did a podcast on infertility, and so
many responses about like, hey, Teddy, cover the other side
(00:25):
of the story, people who don't want to have kids,
so um, I wanted to lean into that a little bit.
I mean, I know from my own personal experience. I
most of you guys know, I used to ride horses
professionally and before I met my husband, that's what I did,
and I always said, you know what, I don't want
to have kids. It's not something I'm interested in doing.
(00:47):
I really want to focus on my riding career. And
it it wasn't something I even put much thought into.
It was just something I would say because I was like,
you know what, this is something that you know, I'm
on the road all the time. It's not going to
work for for this lifestyle and blah blah blah. And
then I met Edwin and I still kind of thought
(01:09):
that same way. And it wasn't until I met his
daughter that I was like, wow, I you know, this
is something I really do want and that all those
reasons I was feeling that way was because of fear
of being vulnerable or not being the perfect mother or
any of those things. So that, you know, also kind
(01:31):
of plays into this topic that we're in because I
know that people can change their mind, but I also
know that some people will not change their mind. And
I said something on the show that I'm on my
very first season, and I it was when I was
talking about my infertility struggles, and I said something along
the lines of, you know, when I couldn't get pregnant,
(01:54):
I was putting so much pressure on myself and I
was really beating myself up because I couldn't get pregnant,
and I felt like it was my job as a woman.
And I cannot even tell you how many people reach
out to me enraged, like how could you say that?
And it was my own personal pressure I had put
on myself that you know. Of course, I don't feel
(02:17):
like everybody should feel that way, but it was something
I had done. But that really leads me to that
topic of yes, for the other side of the coin,
for the people that don't want to have kids versus
the people being okay with not having kids due to circumstances.
You know, somebody I know is talking about how people
will constantly ask her how many kids do you have?
(02:39):
And she goes zero and she just watches their face
panic and squirm on what to ask next. I mean,
even our own engineer Eastern has shared with us that
he and his wife do not want to do not
want kids. Can you share a little it about that
(03:01):
thought process? How you guys came along to discussing that?
Was it right from the beginning? Yeah? Yeah, when we
got married two years ago, so something we talked about.
And at the time we were very much like, I
don't know, I don't I at least I want to
do it right now. You know, that's if that's something
we want to do, it's not right now. And now
it's been a couple of years, we talked about it
(03:22):
again and we're like, I don't, I don't want to
do Neither of us has had that drive to like
to be a parent or um continue our our d
na um and uh, you know, for a while I
felt like it was wrong or something, you know, but
I thought about it, and uh, I just I would
(03:42):
feel so guilty bringing a life into this world that
I wasn't like absolutely dying to have, you know, and
do you feel like your family or her family ever
puts pressure on you guys or your friends asked questions
like well, when you guys gonna have kids? You know?
And what is your response to that? And then do
you think you're judged? Afterwards? My my dad wants us
to have kids so badly, so badly, and it's it's
(04:04):
like it's irritating, but I, you know, I tell him like, no,
it's it's probably not gonna happen, So get get used
to that idea. And then, um, you know, if I
meet people, because when you tell someone you're you're probably
not going to have kids, they think like, oh, well
do you I have kids? Do you dislike me? Do
you think I'm doing something wrong? You know? And the
(04:24):
and the answer is no, Like like, I love a
lot of my friends have kids, and I love those
kids and I love my friends. Um, you know, I
don't drink either, And that's a there's a very similar
I've seen a similar reaction when if someone says like, oh,
do you want to get drink with me? Actually I
don't drink. Then it becomes like, oh, well, you're attacking
me or something because I do. And the answer is no,
(04:44):
I'm very self centered. I'm I'm very I only focus
on myself, another reason why I don't think I should
have kids. But um, uh I do feel a certain
amount of pressure. I think it's much less than it
used to be. I think, like, you know, twenty years ago,
it was a lot worse. But uh, I still do
feel pressure from people to to you know, if you're
(05:05):
married for x amunty years, you should start a family. Yeah,
it's like it's like protocol. Yeah, it's like, hey, hey man,
the funny games are over. You gotta you gotta start
raising kids. But so do you, guys, do you and
your wife ever think about, oh, maybe we'll change our mind,
are you guys? Like no, I I really feel because
somebody we're going to have a guest on later who
she did a documentary and one of the people in
(05:27):
the documentary is a twenty five year old who wants
to sterilize herself so she cannot the possibility of having
kids is no longer an option, and you know, like,
so of course I understand somebody not wanting to, But
then I also wonder, like what if you change your mind?
You know, like, how do you how do you really know? Exactly.
(05:48):
We're not at the point where like I'm going to
be undergoing any medical procedures to prevent That's what I
was gonna say, Like, would you have a vasectomy? No? No,
I I'm not against it. You know a lot of
my friends have had vasectomies and they have very healthy,
fun lives. Um, I'm I'm not. Like, Obviously, people can
grow and change, and people's perspectives on life change, so um,
(06:10):
you know, I don't think it's totally all the cards,
but I'm you know, hey, I'm thirty two. It's not
I'm not getting any younger, you know, and and uh,
I know our window to to do it in a healthy,
easy ways closing. So you know, we've talked about if
we're gonna do it, we'll probably adopt. Yeah, I think
that's probably what we would do. Yeah. I think it's
just such an interesting topic because there is so many
(06:32):
i mean, even celebrities out there who have chosen not
to have kids. You know, I can run down the list.
It's Sarah Paulson, Alison Breed, Tracy Ellis Fross, Helen Mire
and Kim Cortrelle, Jennifer Aniston, Oprah Renfrey, Cameron Diaz, Ashley
Jed Winona Rider, Rashida Jones, Cameron Diaz, Chelsea Handler, Ellen DeGeneres,
Oprah Renee Zewager, Mersa, Tomay, Rachel Ray, Betty White. And
(06:54):
yet you're constantly reading in the press so and so
is pregnant. You know, like it's like we just can't
accept that somebody may not want to have kids. So
what is it in us that feels the need to
just drive that home or make somebody that's made that
choice uncomfortable? What is it in us that feels the
(07:15):
need that we have to understand their exact feeling and um,
So that's why I'm so excited to have these different
people on that have completely different experiences talking about the
difference between childless two child free. So, guys, we're gonna
take a little break and then we're gonna have Amy
Blackstone on. She wrote a book called child Free by Choice,
(07:37):
and I think she'll be awesome to talk to about
this topic. Oh and other news, I have a gift
for y'all. If you are in l A or southern
California and you love Cheryl Crow, we have something special
for you. See Cheryl Crow in a private performance at
the I Heart Radio Theater in Los Angeles. The best part,
(07:57):
it's free, y'all know I love free. All you have
to do is email us at Teddy t at I
Heart radio dot com to r s v P. The
show is Monday, December two at seven pm. So guys,
(08:18):
we have Amy Blackstone on the line. She wrote child
Free by Choice. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Absolutely so I have to ask this first, Um, do
you have kids? I do not? You do not? Okay,
So what kind of led you to write this book? Well? UM,
very appropriate that you asked the question, because although the
(08:40):
book is based on my sociological research on the topic,
what what drove me to do? This research really was
a personal quest. Um. I'm forty seven years old now,
and when I was in my mid thirties, I had
a bunch of friends, one after another, UM share with
me that they were pregnant and they were happily so
and I was happy for them. UM, but I realized
(09:04):
that as they were starting their families to use the
most common vernacular, UM, I wasn't feeling the same poll
toward motherhood that so many of them described. So I
really wanted to understand I started out wanting to understand
what was wrong with me, and discovered that I'm not
alone in in this sort of lack of of poll
(09:24):
toward motherhood. And then in fact, um what we think
of as the natural drive to become a mother is
really more social than it is genetic. And the research
took off from there. So I learned that early on,
and then I started interviewing a lot of child free
women and men to learn about their experiences with that
identity and then also to try to understand what drove
(09:46):
that choice for them. Right, And I have a question.
I know you're speaking a lot about women, but isn't
there men as well who don't want to have kids.
I mean, even George Clooney had said, I've always known
fatherhood wasn't for me. Raising kids is a huge commitment
and has to be your top priority. For me, that
priority is my work. That's why I'll never get married again.
(10:07):
Well he did say that, but then look what happened.
Things change, so that's you know, it's definitely not just
a women thing. But I I'm just curious because I
I do completely understand, but why is it has it
become something where if somebody meets somebody over a certain age,
(10:28):
The first question is how many kids do you have?
And then what what's what's good answer to give back?
I mean, what is a way to kind of I
mean in a way of saying this and the not
nicest way to shut them up? Well, I mean in
fairness to people who ask that it is for many people,
it's a safe ice breaker. It's an easy thing to
(10:50):
ask about, and more people of a certain age have
children than don't, so it does feel like a comfortable
thing to ask. But yes, you raise a good point, Well,
how do you reas on if you're either a person
like myself who has opted out of parenthood or or
I think even worse, if you're a person who wanted
to be a parent but couldn't become one for any
number of reasons. That question can really be hurtful for people.
(11:15):
So one one way that I respond when I get
that question is I say, well, I don't have any kids,
but one thing that I'm really passionate about is skiing
or roller derby, or I love reading about wine, and
try to direct the conversation to another area where we
might find some common ground. And how do you kind
(11:36):
of Because a lot of it is the difference between
not wanting to have kids or people that, because of circumstances,
don't have kids. And I feel like then people want
to grill even more on that, or what if you
change your mind or you know, all of those things.
I mean I even I even asked that question, and
I have to like stop myself, right, Yeah, I mean
(11:57):
I think that in terms of people who make the
choice not to be parents, it's important to take them
at their word, to trust what they're saying. And that
doesn't mean that everybody you know holds firm in that decision.
Some people George Clooney is a great example, do change
their minds, but that doesn't mean that everybody does, Nor
does it mean that we shouldn't take people at their
(12:18):
word in the moment that they're sharing it. And why
do you think there's like a shame around it around
not being a parent? Yes, Like why do why do
people put that on to well? I honestly think that
for many people, the idea that parenthood is actually a
(12:40):
choice is so foreign, I mean especially for girls. I
mean think about walking down like the aisle of a
toys are us and the boy's aisle versus the girl's aisle.
We know that girls are taught from a very young
age that a natural role for them is to become
a mother. There that's expected, uh, and it's expected that
they will feel riven to do that. So to challenge
(13:02):
that idea, I think really for some people it gets
to their core understanding of the way the world works,
and so when you question that, it calls all kinds
of things into question for them. Yeah. And I mean
I also feel that sometimes people start saying, um, my
(13:22):
life is more fulfilled because I have children than you,
you know, that type of thing, and they're starting to
put that on somebody which is their own, I mean,
their own issues. I I guess, I just I'm trying
to understand how we as a community can be more
understanding and less judgmental. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the ideal,
(13:46):
and that this is one of the things I addressed
in my book that yes, it's true for many parents,
having children maybe the most fulfilling thing for them, and
that's wonderful, But that doesn't mean that there aren't other
ways to find fulfillment. And there are many ways to
leave a legacy to make a difference in the world
and I think if we can get ourselves to understand
(14:07):
that parenthood is one way to do that and an
important way to do that, but not the only way
to do it, will start to understand the child free
choice a little bit better. And I mean I think also,
something that you hear a lot is like, we decided
to have a kid to save our marriage. Yeah, and
that how is that any better of a choice? You know? Yeah,
(14:31):
I mean, you raise a good point. One thing I
heard from many of the child free women and men
I interviewed was that they recognize that parenthood is such
an important role and takes so much effort that only
people who truly want to do it, only people who
are all in and going in eyes wide open, should
be doing it because it's hard enough, and we shouldn't
(14:52):
be having people do it for any other reason than
that they want to do it. Yeah, I mean. And
then also I've as I started reading, you know, different
research and things like that, I've noticed that the reason
that women kind of say they don't want is a
little bit different than the men. The men's like I
love to travel, I want to you know, I like
to continue living this life, where a woman maybe like
(15:14):
I just don't have that urge, And yeah, you're absolutely right.
One of the other differences I've found in my own
research was that women are more likely to mention an
interest in nurturing the relationships that they have at present.
So often that's with a spouse or a partner. So
many of the women that I interviewed said, you know,
(15:35):
my relationship with my husband is so important to me
that I don't want to have to give up time
to that. I don't want to have to give up, um,
all of the things that I do to nurture that connection.
And and it was more often women than men that
mentioned that. And do you think in the next ten
years things will change, like will become more commonplace and
(15:57):
more accepted to not want kids? I hope so. And
if we look at the way that our culture has
changed over the last forty years, I would say that
that's the direction we're headed in. Um. I mean, if
somebody proclaimed that they had opted out of parenthood forty
or fifty years ago, the the societal reaction to that
was much stronger than than it is today. So well,
(16:19):
child free people still today get a lot of pushback,
and there's certainly still a stigma associated with the choice.
We're in a better place than we were decades ago,
and so I have to believe, in part because I'm
an optimist, that we will be in a better place
in future decades. And I have a question. Are you
in a relationship? I am. I'm going to celebrate my
(16:41):
twenty five anniversary next month of congratulations, thank you. I mean,
studies show that that child free women are the happiest
group of people. Well, they do, but I will on
one thing to note is that for parents happy, there's more.
It's more of a roller coaster. Right. Well, I have
(17:04):
a question. So, from the very beginning, was this a
topic that you and your husband fully agreed on. Well,
it's funny it was, but we both assumed that we
would become parents. Um So. The choice not to become
a parent was one that we made over time. And
we got married pretty young. I was twenty two, he
(17:24):
was twenty three. This was he was my high school sweetheart,
um so, and I spent my whole teenage years babysitting,
I nanny throughout college. So I really did think that
I was destined for motherhood and my husband assumed the
same thing. And then over the years, um for the
first ten years or so of our marriage, I just
kept saying, I'm too young, I'm too young, I'm too young,
(17:46):
I'm not ready yet. And then by the time I
hit my mid thirties, when friends of mine were becoming mothers,
I realized, you know, I really don't think I want
to become mother so but it definitely was a process,
and my husband and I would check in with each
other every few years, and neither of us that felt
compelled at any point to do it. And then we
(18:08):
finally just embraced the reality that that we liked our
lives as it was as it was, and that we
wanted to stay child free. And I mean, you guys
are that that's great, because oftentimes that's not the case, right,
I know, yeah, I mean we we are really lucky,
frankly that we came to the same place, because that's
not always true for couples. And I do think this
(18:31):
is one of the biggest deal breakers for couples because
having kids is not something that you can compromise on.
Either you have them or you don't. And what do
you recommend to our listeners out there that don't want
to have kids, but they're you know, in a newish relationship.
It's not in their opinion. They don't even know if
they're going to get married or what's going to happen next.
(18:52):
So when do you think that conversation starts to happen.
And also how do you get that person to actually
believe you, because as I've heard, I've heard men all
the time, you know, or women say I don't want kids,
but like it's you know, ten years later they have
three little ones. Well, this is a question that I
get all the time from the child free people that
(19:12):
I meet with and work with. And I think it's
super important to be as honest as you can be
from the from the very beginning. Um. And as I
said earlier, taking people at their word is critical. Um,
you know, do people change their minds Sometimes they do. Yeah,
But um, better to be honest from the beginning than
(19:36):
than not. So I think the best way to head
it off again is to talk about It might feel
funny talking about having kids when you're newly dating a person, um,
but I think it's a signal of your values and
the life that you envisioned for yourself. And those are
things that I think people at any stage of dating
should be talking about and I have a question, do
you think that this decision comes, you know, from a
(19:59):
very very at a very young age, like to the
point where like something may have happened, Like a friend
of mine always says, people always ask me when I
say I don't have kids, did something happen when you
were younger? Do you have daddy issues? Like they started
like going into this rabbit hole of trying to figure
out and like diagnose why you've made this decision. Do
(20:20):
you think there's anything that happens in you know, nurture
that switches this um. The data don't indicate that that
that's the case. I have to confess that that was
the stereotype that I myself had of people who opt
out of parenthood. So when I went when I started
the research myself, I thought, Okay, I'm a special case
because I had a great childhood. My parents were wonderful
(20:43):
at their job, they're still married, but I must be unusual.
And what I learned was actually, many child free people
don't have kids because they understand what what a job
it was for their parents and what it took for
them to be good parents, and and you know, have
decided they want to dedicate their attention and their lives
to other causes. But um, there really isn't a lot
(21:06):
of evidence to suggest that child free people are more
likely to have had, you know, a terrible childhood than
people who have children. So it is a stereotype, it's
not supported. Yeah, And do you think if more Oftentimes
when celebrities choose not to have children, they just don't
talk about it. Do you think if it was more
(21:28):
spoken about then it would become more accepted or do
you think it would have any impact? Oh? I totally
think it would have an impact. And yeah, I mean
shout out to all of the celebrities who are child free,
please talk about it because those who have have made
such a difference. Not just to child free people, although
seeing you know, seeing people in the public eye who
(21:50):
are living lives of their choosing and and openly proclaiming
their choices can be so gratifying um as a child
free person, but also um opening up the conversation so
that everybody understands that parenthood is and can be and
should be a choice rather than a mandate. Um, I
think we'll serve everybody well. So the more people who
(22:13):
are in the public eye can be open about their choice,
the better for everyone. Yeah, I mean you would think
the fact that Oprah doesn't have kids would make it
like a more I hate to use it the word
in quotes acceptable thing because you know she's Oprah right exactly,
(22:33):
But I agree with you. But I also think she
has done a lot for the child free community by
simply being open about her choice. Um, we get to
see that. Oh yeah, even this amazingly successful, generous, kind,
wonderful person. It's not a mother now. It's incredible. And
thank you so much for sharing with us and giving
(22:55):
us your information, like all of your research. It's it's
been really helpful. So I appreciate at You're welcome. It's
been fun. Thank you. All Right, talks in Okay, Okay, guys,
(23:15):
we are back from our break. I wanted to get
a millennials perspective, so we are going to get Mary
on the phone and chat with her. Hi. Mary, thanks
for taking the time to speak with us, of course.
Um So I have a quick question for you in
the younger generation and between you and your friends, do
(23:36):
you think this is like a rising trend right now? Um?
I don't know, if it's my I don't know about
the younger generation. I'm thirty two, and all of our
friends have kids, So I don't know if it's maybe
um like now with like the millennials or younger kids,
like maybe that's what's going on, but I'm not sure.
(23:56):
For my group and my generation, I'm probably really one
of the few that, um that we're not having kids.
Are you married? Yes? Been married for five years? Been
with each other for wow? And did you guys speak
about it from the beginning? Um, it was never like
to sit down conversation when we started dating. I think
(24:18):
we were just both young and we're both kind of
the babies of the family of both of our sides.
Um that we kind of just like grew up, not
like grew up together. But I was like twenty one
or yeah, I'm twenty when we met, so we kind
of both just feel the same way. And do you
think that there was an actual reason why you decided
not to have kids? Yeah, I think honestly, I think
(24:42):
that kids are huge responsibility and I think, like watching
everybody have kids, I feel like it takes like a
really big toll on a lot of people's relationships. And
to be honest, it might sound selfish, but like, I
really enjoyed me in my husband's life. I like that
we can go see a movie a Wednesday without like
having the planet months before, and get a babysitter. I
(25:05):
like just like picking up and we go to Newport
and we can spend the night if we want. Like, Um,
I just really enjoy that. So that's funny. That's actually
the number we just had another specialist on and that
was the number one reason she said it ends up happening. Um,
do you think your husband feels exactly the same way. Yeah,
I feel like. I mean we both I feel like
(25:26):
we do. I mean we've talked about it. Obviously, it's
not like an unspoken you know, but I yeah, I
think he feels the same way. And we're both like
he has brothers and I'm the baby of three sisters,
and I feel like we both love being an aunt
and uncle and we get to babysit them and spoil
them and kind of take advantage of being a full
aunts and uncle and then we get to do our
(25:48):
own thing and travel and um, you know, not have
that huge responsibility. That's such a good point because so
often we think that because somebody doesn't want kids, that
it means they don't being around kids, But really that's
not the case at all. You love doing it, You
love being an auntie, love doing all of those things.
You just know for yourself, it's a personal decision. I
(26:11):
we love. All of our friends have kids, and the
kids come over all the time and we get to
be like the fun aunt and uncle, and I love
my nieces to death. I just don't personally, it's not
for me, but I like love them. It doesn't Yeah,
I think everyone thinks that just because you don't want kids,
everyone thinks you hate kids. But it's not it at all.
And how do your parents feel about it? I think
(26:35):
I am actually in the clear because I have older siblings.
I think it would be a lot harder if I
was the only child. It would be a lot more pressure.
But I think that they just know how we've We've
been together for so long and it's not like a
rash decision. It's just something. I think they get it now.
I think it's a lot. It seems a lot harder
raising kids today with social media and the phones, Like
(26:58):
we didn't grow up like that. I didn't get a
phone until I was driving at sixteen. So I think
they get it their grandparents now right. I mean, do
you feel like you get any pressure, any shame, or
any of those types of things by friends or people
that ask you, guys those questions or has it become
more acceptable? I think in the beginning I did. Like
(27:20):
when we got married at I was and no, none
of our friends had kids yet, so we everyone was like, oh,
are you gonna have They didn't understand it. But it's
so crazy now that everyone has kids, nobody questions it, like, yeah,
if you're if you're not on board, don't do it right.
It makes sense because it is so strange to me
(27:40):
that people get a little weirded out by it and
then they failed the need to start grilling and thinking
it's something that happened in their path, you know, all
of those things. Um. Yeah, And then so I have
to ask on the grilling topic, what what would you
do if your husband all of a sudden changed his
mind or you changed your mind? Um? I mean obviously
(28:05):
we would have it. We're like best friends and we
would have a discussion about it. I wouldn't know exactly
what would happen, but yeah, something obviously we would talk
about and be open about because it is a really
big topic and a really big responsibility that you used
to think of everything around it. It's not just you
have a kid and that's it. It's I just feel
(28:25):
like everyone gets it. Seems like everyone. It's a tool
on everyone because everyone's so tired, everyone's working. You have
to make a certain amount of money now to take
care of your family. So I would always have a
conversation with him about it. I know, I think that
you know. And there's also a whole group of people
who it's you know, are okay with having kids, but
(28:48):
are deathly afraid to get pregnant. And I mean so
that just adds like a whole another dynamic to it. Um.
I love hearing from you, and I hope that you
My asking questions is really just because that's the nature
of this podcast. We like to dig deep into all
different you know, thought processes. So I just wanted to
(29:09):
thank you for taking the time to talk with us.
Of course, thank you so much. Bye. Okay, guys, we
are back with Maxine Trump. I just watched her movie
(29:29):
to Kid or Not two Kid, and I just think
it's such an important message to be to get out there.
And I thank you for joining us. It's lovely to
be here. Thanks so much for having us. Can you
explain a little bit to our listeners what led you
to make this movie? You know, it's really interesting because
(29:51):
only when I got to kind of the so called
end of my biological child rearing opportunity, UM, did I
really start thinking I have to make a decision about
whether or not to have kids. It's never been something
i'd really thought about. In the same way I hadn't
really dreamt about the big white wedding. I hadn't dreamt
(30:14):
about kind of a lot of my future. I just
lived day by day. I was very much that kind
of person where let's see where this day brings me,
and what's the next adventure around the corner. And then
I was realizing the more that people were asking me
about my decision whether or not to have kids, I
had to make a decision, and it started getting me
kind of angry that I couldn't delay it like a
(30:37):
lot of men, can, you know. Um. And then I
was starting to look around and and try and look
for things that could help me with this decision. And
there was one shorter film out there, but and a
few books, but This was back in and it really
hadn't become the hot topic that it is now about
(30:58):
deciding whether or not to have children. So I did
what I do best, I guess, and picked up my
camera and I didn't enter into making a personal film.
I was just going to explore this subject. And then
I'm part of this great filmmaking community in New York
and I started showing test scenes to these groups and
(31:19):
they were like, you're you're holding back, You're not being clear,
and so that kind of turned the whole film around,
and you started really leaning into it and talking about
your fears and also the kind of the judgments that
put on you. And a lot of what we saw
in the film was kind of pressure from your mom almost,
which I know is probably hard to talk about. But
do you think that kind of started from a young
(31:41):
a young age, or you know, do you think that's
just something that happened once you started saying, you know, no,
it's not something we want to do. You know, it's
so interesting because my mom was pretty cool about it
at the beginning, you know, years ago, when obviously I
was at a different age. She said to me, you know,
don't look at having kids through rose tinted spectacles. You know,
(32:04):
she brought up three kids, she was a single mom
for a chunk of time, and I was like, oh,
thanks so much for being like super honest with me.
And then it kind of started shifting as I got
when she realized you were serious. I think so right,
um or or at least, I mean, we just didn't
talk about it very often because I just wasn't bringing
(32:26):
it up because I didn't need to write until I
needed to or until people are asking me more. And
she wanted to ask me more about my decisions. So
it kind of shifted, and I think that does happen
for a lot of people. You know, you get to
an age where you know you're either maybe maybe in
a committed relationship or you may be single and deciding
(32:49):
what's your decision? And um, if you are single, are
you going to then you know when is the best
time or who do you go? And you know, Dore dregs,
you do this not something you want to do. And
I think that's so often confused, is do you not
want to have kids? Or because of circumstances are you
not having kids? And I think that our nature is
(33:12):
to be inquisitive on that and not realizing what we're
putting on to the people that are deciding that they
don't want to have kids. You know. And I love
your story too because I know you've had a journey
as well, and I think, um, for my what I
call my child less sisters and brothers, because it happens
to men to you know, Um, it's really on my
(33:35):
heart for them in a big way because if they're
constantly getting asked, that's even worse than me getting constantly asked.
You know, I was told from a young age it
would be hard to have kids, but the door hadn't
completely closed for me. But for people that are on
that journey, I think it's really really difficult if they're
asked all the time because where are they on that
(33:57):
spectrum they could be at any point, you know. Um.
So I was really delighted actually because PBS commissioned me
to do this spinoff series. She's kind of amazing. I
didn't really congratulations you so much because PBS as well
aren't always notorious for being the most groundbreaking that works, right, Um,
but we have this amazing spinoff series which has allowed
(34:20):
me to explore the whole. Like I said, the spectrum
of fertility or infertility or decision making. And we have
these amazing episodes. We have one woman who's in her
fifties trying to decide when she stops doing IVF and
she's debating with a young woman who was a team
mum and that it was an amazing episode. And we
(34:41):
have a number of episodes where people, you know, we
had a gay couple talking to young gay guy about saragaceine.
And it's been really fascinating. I've learned actually a hell
of a lot over the six years of making it,
as you can imagine. So that was really exciting because
you know, fundamentally the film, I didn't want it to
be my own story, and we definitely explore other people's
(35:05):
situations for sure. Like Megan. I mean, this is one
that definitely, like just to kind of give the listeners backstory,
Megan is struggling to get medical permission to undergo elective sterilization. Yeah,
and she is twenty five, right, and she's gone to
like four different doctors fifth now, And I mean, the
(35:31):
my question is in regard to this, what if she
changed her mind? What if a doctor did agree to
it and then she did change her mind. Is it
the same as a vasectomy that you can have it reversed?
You know, that's a question that a lot of young
people when they are feeling certain about their decision, that
they get asked, and they really appreciate um people that
(35:55):
have gone before them that have shown that they haven't
changed their mind. We've had, we have a lovely few
characters in the film. One woman who's you know, in
her older six, in her sixties now, and she actually
lost her job when she came out about not having kids.
And Megan looks at her and looks at me and
looks at Laurel Carol. That's also in the film. People
(36:16):
have gone before that proved that their minds aren't changed.
But I did actually ask her because I did feel
that that could have been one of the reasons doctors
were using. And she said, listen, I'll go to therapy
for as long as they want me to go to therapy.
She's now five appointments later, she's almost five years later.
Her husband. She was asked to bring in her husband
(36:37):
to make sure her husband with sterilization. With her being sterilized,
I mean, you know, she's in charge of her own body,
and she's not being taken seriously and that breaks my
heart right and now that that was the one that
I was like, wow, you know, it's unbelievable. And then
kind of bringing it back to your story, Josh, your
husband is in the studio with us, and I think
(37:01):
what I got? Do you have you have kids already? Yes?
With with with an X yes. So do you think
that your conversations about you not wanting to have kids
may have gone differently had you not? Yeah? I think
that's a great question. And I think also because having kids,
not having kids is such a huge thing, it's sort
(37:23):
of impossible to say, oh, you know, yeah, if I
didn't have kids, I would have thought X, y Z.
You know what I mean, you're sort of helpless, but
to come from the perspective where you are in life.
So I feel like it probably would have been a
different conversation, you know, if I hadn't had kids. But
I kind of empowerless to know how different or you know,
how it would have gone differently because a lot of
the people that had written in were saying that there,
(37:46):
you know, and relationships where it's getting to the point
where they're significant, other might propose or to the getting
that point and they're scared to have that conversation or
they've casually mentioned it and it's kind of brushed over.
So it's like, how how do you really start to
set that expectation so that you're not ten years, fifteen
years into marriage and then all of a sudden, like
(38:07):
you have to separate because you can't agree on this topic.
Watch the film, honestly, I mean right, I mean that's
really why I made the film, because I want this space,
this kind of space for people where a the ice
has now been broken because they've watched the film is
a very very vulnerable kind of for me, cringe, cringe
(38:28):
some of the scenes that have intimates it is now.
But it's amazing that you're able to share yourself, you know,
share your journey. But I think that there's so many
people out there that are questioning themselves and then almost
putting that that pressure from other people onto themselves or
(38:50):
really feeling that pressure, you know, I've had in some ways.
I've got to weigh lightly that it's only been a
few people in my life. At one screening in Ohio,
when we were so excited, we did three screenings in
Ohio where they're trying to institute you know, these crazy
abortion laws. And one young woman came up with her
husband in floods of tears after a screening and said,
(39:11):
I came here and I couldn't tell anyone I was
coming to the screening, not one person. And I'm still
getting chills when I think about it now, because I
sort of feel like if if I've just made this
film just for her, then I started film my works
then I know, because the biggest thing is, you know,
that we want is to not feel alone absolutely, and
when we start feeling you know, ostracized in any way
(39:34):
or that we're alone or that people don't understand, then
we start putting our guards up and we're not living
the life that we want to live anyway. Um. But
another topic that's come up a bunch, especially in the
younger generation that I've spoken to, is actually the fear
of getting pregnant is why they don't want to have
kids versus not actually wanting kids. Yeah. Yeah, And I
(39:58):
love that you're bringing this up right now. And I know,
I mean, it's it's such a crazy topic for me,
but I like have to listen to my listeners because
I did it a big thing on infertility, and people,
you know, really reached out afterwards and said, we want
to hear the other side of it, Like we want
to hear the other side because there, you know, we
(40:20):
are out there getting questions constantly, and you know, I
have said some things in the past that like I
didn't realize that my phrasing could be hurtful to other people,
you know, just speaking from my own personal I remember
being at a place where like I was trying so
hard to get pregnant that I put so much pressure
on myself for and no one else was putting pressure
(40:43):
on me, but I felt all this pressure like this
is my job. And I said that, and people were furious,
like how could you say this, you know, like what
is wrong with you? You know, And really it was
just my own like it's so personal and what your
goal going through when it happens, you don't know until
you're actually there. And that wasn't to judge anybody else.
(41:07):
That was solely how I felt in that moment. And
you know, but I have a girlfriend that's like, listen,
I want to have kids, um, but I am scared
one to carry a baby. And I'm scared too that
I'm never going to meet somebody, you know, So it
goes so many different levels that and then she goes,
(41:27):
you know, I'm scared, and because of that, I don't
think I'm meeting people because I'm so scared all the
time that they're not going to be the one, and
then I'm not gonna be able to have kids. So
there's so many different levels to this, so many I
think finding the language to talk about it, and I
made mistakes too, I think a lot of people do,
because I think for many years we didn't really know
(41:51):
how to talk about not having kids or having kids
or how we were having kids. And I think as
we're seeing a rise in articles and podcasts, and you know,
it's it's great because it's it's given us this opportunity
to say, hey, did you did you hear that the
other day? Or well let's talk about like oh, let
me just play this clip from Teddy Show. You know. Um,
(42:12):
it allows us really to be much more open about it.
And I even felt like my shoulders go back a
little bit more when I bring this subject up instead
of kind of carrying in a corner. And you know, um,
so it's exciting. Actually, I think it's another way of
empowering women. Yeah, I think I think versus where we
want to clam up and not say anything, even if
we just share, as opposed to getting frustrated or angry
(42:36):
when somebody asked, because sometimes somebody's just asking, you know,
one of the specials earlier. Sometimes somebody's not asking because
they're judging. They're just meeting you and they're trying to
fill the conversation, so like they don't know what else
to say, so like, so do you have kids? Oh?
Why not? You know, there's just an open space and
she goes. So you just can alter the conversation however
(42:56):
you want. No, I don't, but you know what I
love reading or Bob going skiing or what. You know,
you just move the conversation along, or you you kind
of dig into it if you're closer with that person
and you want to actually have a deeper discussion about it.
Because I do also think that in your head, you
start to think, wow, if and I talked about this
(43:17):
with an earlier guess too is if they don't want kids,
maybe they don't like kids and putting that on somebody
and and maybe they don't or maybe they do, maybe
they love them. Yeah, but it's not ours to make
that decision totally, and and not to make people feel abnormal,
Like I think what you've just said, like, okay, that
maybe the icebreaker, maybe like asking what the weather is
(43:38):
going to be right today, and you're asking somebody if
they have kids. But then don't go to that next
level of either walking away climbing up the conversation, because
there's been so many people that have been hurt by
then the next question like, well, why have you decided
to you know that's that's strange or that's odd, or
you know, why do you not like kids? Or do
(43:59):
you know? It's like the follow up question that can
be really helpful. So I agree with you. I don't
I don't mind if somebody says do you have kids
or not? And I say, oh no, And as long
as they leave it there, but it's asked me something else.
Don't make me feel weird because I'm not weird because
there's us is that? Is that the number? Okay? So
(44:21):
good to know. Um gosh, well, I I do have
to tell you, guys, you've got to watch this movie,
especially if you're in a place where you just want
to be understood. There's so many different amazing women and
men in the movie who um are just being open
and honest about their journey. And truthfully, I think, regardless
(44:44):
if you want kids, don't want kids, can't have kids,
change your mind about kids, whatever it is you are,
you're not alone, and you know what it's whatever ends
up happening, and whatever you want, it's okay, and you
know what, the people that love you will understand and
you might benefit from the different decision making like I'm
(45:06):
sure you have. I mean, my sister has three kids
and benefits from the fact I didn't have kids, like
and yeah, mutually symbiotic relations and if you can start
to also at certain points not take everything so seriously
so you can't start to, like, you know, laugh and
have fun and enjoy the circumstances a little bit. I remember,
even when it came to my infertility stuff, I took
(45:29):
everything so personal that I alienated myself from my friends
and family because I didn't want them to know how
much I was struggling, and then that just made me
feel more alone. And I think the same can go
for if you're so worried about people asking you the
question about if you want kids or not, that then
(45:49):
you shut out the people in your life instead of
having the conversation, and then they don't know what to do,
and then they asked the uncomfortable questions because they're kind
of backed into a corner. Yeah, but I'm made please
you brought that up about your own journey and sort
of alienating because I think we have to be careful
about the words we use as well, Like I will
never there's you know, there can be terms that I
(46:10):
think are unhelpful um on the people when people decide
not to have kids as well because they've been so hurt.
You know, there's terms like reader and things like which
I all mumbies and I do not sign up to
that in any way. And I think what we've really
tried to do in the film is really be inclusive,
as inclusive as possible. And you bring up humor. There's
(46:32):
definitely moments in the film for sure, right because like
you say, like let's let's release some of this tension
because all that heaviness, like what is it gonna do?
You're gonna explode and you're probably gonna explode on the
wrong person about the wrong thing. Um, But I you know,
I want the listen. I encourage the listeners to watch
(46:53):
the movie, but also keep asking us these questions, keep
keep putting it out there, because the more that we
all talk about it, the more that we're all educating
ourselves on the way to talk about it so that
we're not hurting the people in our lives, we're supporting them.
So um, thanks you guys so much for coming in.
I really appreciate it. Thanks, thank you guys so much
(47:16):
for tuning in to another week of Teddy Tea pod.
I loved exploring the other side of this and what
great guests we had and listeners, please keep sending us
in things you want us to talk about. We love
it and we want to get some of your answers answered,
So send an email into Teddy t at I heart
radio dot com. Thanks for listening, Subscribe to tradio or
(47:42):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
This is Teddy t PO. Hi guys, welcome back to
this week of Teddy Teapod. Thank you so much for
emailing in. We did a podcast on infertility, and so
many responses about like, hey, Teddy, cover the other side
(00:25):
of the story, people who don't want to have kids,
so um, I wanted to lean into that a little bit.
I mean, I know from my own personal experience. I
most of you guys know, I used to ride horses
professionally and before I met my husband, that's what I did,
and I always said, you know what, I don't want
to have kids. It's not something I'm interested in doing.
(00:47):
I really want to focus on my riding career. And
it it wasn't something I even put much thought into.
It was just something I would say because I was like,
you know what, this is something that you know, I'm
on the road all the time. It's not going to
work for for this lifestyle and blah blah blah. And
then I met Edwin and I still kind of thought
(01:09):
that same way. And it wasn't until I met his
daughter that I was like, wow, I you know, this
is something I really do want and that all those
reasons I was feeling that way was because of fear
of being vulnerable or not being the perfect mother or
any of those things. So that, you know, also kind
(01:31):
of plays into this topic that we're in because I
know that people can change their mind, but I also
know that some people will not change their mind. And
I said something on the show that I'm on my
very first season, and I it was when I was
talking about my infertility struggles, and I said something along
the lines of, you know, when I couldn't get pregnant,
(01:54):
I was putting so much pressure on myself and I
was really beating myself up because I couldn't get pregnant,
and I felt like it was my job as a woman.
And I cannot even tell you how many people reach
out to me enraged, like how could you say that?
And it was my own personal pressure I had put
on myself that you know. Of course, I don't feel
(02:17):
like everybody should feel that way, but it was something
I had done. But that really leads me to that
topic of yes, for the other side of the coin,
for the people that don't want to have kids versus
the people being okay with not having kids due to circumstances.
You know, somebody I know is talking about how people
will constantly ask her how many kids do you have?
(02:39):
And she goes zero and she just watches their face
panic and squirm on what to ask next. I mean,
even our own engineer Eastern has shared with us that
he and his wife do not want to do not
want kids. Can you share a little it about that
(03:01):
thought process? How you guys came along to discussing that?
Was it right from the beginning? Yeah? Yeah, when we
got married two years ago, so something we talked about.
And at the time we were very much like, I
don't know, I don't I at least I want to
do it right now. You know, that's if that's something
we want to do, it's not right now. And now
it's been a couple of years, we talked about it
(03:22):
again and we're like, I don't, I don't want to
do Neither of us has had that drive to like
to be a parent or um continue our our d
na um and uh, you know, for a while I
felt like it was wrong or something, you know, but
I thought about it, and uh, I just I would
(03:42):
feel so guilty bringing a life into this world that
I wasn't like absolutely dying to have, you know, and
do you feel like your family or her family ever
puts pressure on you guys or your friends asked questions
like well, when you guys gonna have kids? You know?
And what is your response to that? And then do
you think you're judged? Afterwards? My my dad wants us
to have kids so badly, so badly, and it's it's
(04:04):
like it's irritating, but I, you know, I tell him like, no,
it's it's probably not gonna happen, So get get used
to that idea. And then, um, you know, if I
meet people, because when you tell someone you're you're probably
not going to have kids, they think like, oh, well
do you I have kids? Do you dislike me? Do
you think I'm doing something wrong? You know? And the
(04:24):
and the answer is no, Like like, I love a
lot of my friends have kids, and I love those
kids and I love my friends. Um, you know, I
don't drink either, And that's a there's a very similar
I've seen a similar reaction when if someone says like, oh,
do you want to get drink with me? Actually I
don't drink. Then it becomes like, oh, well, you're attacking
me or something because I do. And the answer is no,
(04:44):
I'm very self centered. I'm I'm very I only focus
on myself, another reason why I don't think I should
have kids. But um, uh I do feel a certain
amount of pressure. I think it's much less than it
used to be. I think, like, you know, twenty years ago,
it was a lot worse. But uh, I still do
feel pressure from people to to you know, if you're
(05:05):
married for x amunty years, you should start a family. Yeah,
it's like it's like protocol. Yeah, it's like, hey, hey man,
the funny games are over. You gotta you gotta start
raising kids. But so do you, guys, do you and
your wife ever think about, oh, maybe we'll change our mind,
are you guys? Like no, I I really feel because
somebody we're going to have a guest on later who
she did a documentary and one of the people in
(05:27):
the documentary is a twenty five year old who wants
to sterilize herself so she cannot the possibility of having
kids is no longer an option, and you know, like,
so of course I understand somebody not wanting to, But
then I also wonder, like what if you change your mind?
You know, like, how do you how do you really know? Exactly.
(05:48):
We're not at the point where like I'm going to
be undergoing any medical procedures to prevent That's what I
was gonna say, Like, would you have a vasectomy? No? No,
I I'm not against it. You know a lot of
my friends have had vasectomies and they have very healthy,
fun lives. Um, I'm I'm not. Like, Obviously, people can
grow and change, and people's perspectives on life change, so um,
(06:10):
you know, I don't think it's totally all the cards,
but I'm you know, hey, I'm thirty two. It's not
I'm not getting any younger, you know, and and uh,
I know our window to to do it in a healthy,
easy ways closing. So you know, we've talked about if
we're gonna do it, we'll probably adopt. Yeah, I think
that's probably what we would do. Yeah. I think it's
just such an interesting topic because there is so many
(06:32):
i mean, even celebrities out there who have chosen not
to have kids. You know, I can run down the list.
It's Sarah Paulson, Alison Breed, Tracy Ellis Fross, Helen Mire
and Kim Cortrelle, Jennifer Aniston, Oprah Renfrey, Cameron Diaz, Ashley
Jed Winona Rider, Rashida Jones, Cameron Diaz, Chelsea Handler, Ellen DeGeneres,
Oprah Renee Zewager, Mersa, Tomay, Rachel Ray, Betty White. And
(06:54):
yet you're constantly reading in the press so and so
is pregnant. You know, like it's like we just can't
accept that somebody may not want to have kids. So
what is it in us that feels the need to
just drive that home or make somebody that's made that
choice uncomfortable? What is it in us that feels the
(07:15):
need that we have to understand their exact feeling and um,
So that's why I'm so excited to have these different
people on that have completely different experiences talking about the
difference between childless two child free. So, guys, we're gonna
take a little break and then we're gonna have Amy
Blackstone on. She wrote a book called child Free by Choice,
(07:37):
and I think she'll be awesome to talk to about
this topic. Oh and other news, I have a gift
for y'all. If you are in l A or southern
California and you love Cheryl Crow, we have something special
for you. See Cheryl Crow in a private performance at
the I Heart Radio Theater in Los Angeles. The best part,
(07:57):
it's free, y'all know I love free. All you have
to do is email us at Teddy t at I
Heart radio dot com to r s v P. The
show is Monday, December two at seven pm. So guys,
(08:18):
we have Amy Blackstone on the line. She wrote child
Free by Choice. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Absolutely so I have to ask this first, Um, do
you have kids? I do not? You do not? Okay,
So what kind of led you to write this book? Well? UM,
very appropriate that you asked the question, because although the
(08:40):
book is based on my sociological research on the topic,
what what drove me to do? This research really was
a personal quest. Um. I'm forty seven years old now,
and when I was in my mid thirties, I had
a bunch of friends, one after another, UM share with
me that they were pregnant and they were happily so
and I was happy for them. UM, but I realized
(09:04):
that as they were starting their families to use the
most common vernacular, UM, I wasn't feeling the same poll
toward motherhood that so many of them described. So I
really wanted to understand I started out wanting to understand
what was wrong with me, and discovered that I'm not
alone in in this sort of lack of of poll
(09:24):
toward motherhood. And then in fact, um what we think
of as the natural drive to become a mother is
really more social than it is genetic. And the research
took off from there. So I learned that early on,
and then I started interviewing a lot of child free
women and men to learn about their experiences with that
identity and then also to try to understand what drove
(09:46):
that choice for them. Right, And I have a question.
I know you're speaking a lot about women, but isn't
there men as well who don't want to have kids.
I mean, even George Clooney had said, I've always known
fatherhood wasn't for me. Raising kids is a huge commitment
and has to be your top priority. For me, that
priority is my work. That's why I'll never get married again.
(10:07):
Well he did say that, but then look what happened.
Things change, so that's you know, it's definitely not just
a women thing. But I I'm just curious because I
I do completely understand, but why is it has it
become something where if somebody meets somebody over a certain age,
(10:28):
The first question is how many kids do you have?
And then what what's what's good answer to give back?
I mean, what is a way to kind of I
mean in a way of saying this and the not
nicest way to shut them up? Well, I mean in
fairness to people who ask that it is for many people,
it's a safe ice breaker. It's an easy thing to
(10:50):
ask about, and more people of a certain age have
children than don't, so it does feel like a comfortable
thing to ask. But yes, you raise a good point, Well,
how do you reas on if you're either a person
like myself who has opted out of parenthood or or
I think even worse, if you're a person who wanted
to be a parent but couldn't become one for any
number of reasons. That question can really be hurtful for people.
(11:15):
So one one way that I respond when I get
that question is I say, well, I don't have any kids,
but one thing that I'm really passionate about is skiing
or roller derby, or I love reading about wine, and
try to direct the conversation to another area where we
might find some common ground. And how do you kind
(11:36):
of Because a lot of it is the difference between
not wanting to have kids or people that, because of circumstances,
don't have kids. And I feel like then people want
to grill even more on that, or what if you
change your mind or you know, all of those things.
I mean I even I even asked that question, and
I have to like stop myself, right, Yeah, I mean
(11:57):
I think that in terms of people who make the
choice not to be parents, it's important to take them
at their word, to trust what they're saying. And that
doesn't mean that everybody you know holds firm in that decision.
Some people George Clooney is a great example, do change
their minds, but that doesn't mean that everybody does, Nor
does it mean that we shouldn't take people at their
(12:18):
word in the moment that they're sharing it. And why
do you think there's like a shame around it around
not being a parent? Yes, Like why do why do
people put that on to well? I honestly think that
for many people, the idea that parenthood is actually a
(12:40):
choice is so foreign, I mean especially for girls. I
mean think about walking down like the aisle of a
toys are us and the boy's aisle versus the girl's aisle.
We know that girls are taught from a very young
age that a natural role for them is to become
a mother. There that's expected, uh, and it's expected that
they will feel riven to do that. So to challenge
(13:02):
that idea, I think really for some people it gets
to their core understanding of the way the world works,
and so when you question that, it calls all kinds
of things into question for them. Yeah. And I mean
I also feel that sometimes people start saying, um, my
(13:22):
life is more fulfilled because I have children than you,
you know, that type of thing, and they're starting to
put that on somebody which is their own, I mean,
their own issues. I I guess, I just I'm trying
to understand how we as a community can be more
understanding and less judgmental. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the ideal,
(13:46):
and that this is one of the things I addressed
in my book that yes, it's true for many parents,
having children maybe the most fulfilling thing for them, and
that's wonderful, But that doesn't mean that there aren't other
ways to find fulfillment. And there are many ways to
leave a legacy to make a difference in the world
and I think if we can get ourselves to understand
(14:07):
that parenthood is one way to do that and an
important way to do that, but not the only way
to do it, will start to understand the child free
choice a little bit better. And I mean I think also,
something that you hear a lot is like, we decided
to have a kid to save our marriage. Yeah, and
that how is that any better of a choice? You know? Yeah,
(14:31):
I mean, you raise a good point. One thing I
heard from many of the child free women and men
I interviewed was that they recognize that parenthood is such
an important role and takes so much effort that only
people who truly want to do it, only people who
are all in and going in eyes wide open, should
be doing it because it's hard enough, and we shouldn't
(14:52):
be having people do it for any other reason than
that they want to do it. Yeah, I mean. And
then also I've as I started reading, you know, different
research and things like that, I've noticed that the reason
that women kind of say they don't want is a
little bit different than the men. The men's like I
love to travel, I want to you know, I like
to continue living this life, where a woman maybe like
(15:14):
I just don't have that urge, And yeah, you're absolutely right.
One of the other differences I've found in my own
research was that women are more likely to mention an
interest in nurturing the relationships that they have at present.
So often that's with a spouse or a partner. So
many of the women that I interviewed said, you know,
(15:35):
my relationship with my husband is so important to me
that I don't want to have to give up time
to that. I don't want to have to give up, um,
all of the things that I do to nurture that connection.
And and it was more often women than men that
mentioned that. And do you think in the next ten
years things will change, like will become more commonplace and
(15:57):
more accepted to not want kids? I hope so. And
if we look at the way that our culture has
changed over the last forty years, I would say that
that's the direction we're headed in. Um. I mean, if
somebody proclaimed that they had opted out of parenthood forty
or fifty years ago, the the societal reaction to that
was much stronger than than it is today. So well,
(16:19):
child free people still today get a lot of pushback,
and there's certainly still a stigma associated with the choice.
We're in a better place than we were decades ago,
and so I have to believe, in part because I'm
an optimist, that we will be in a better place
in future decades. And I have a question. Are you
in a relationship? I am. I'm going to celebrate my
(16:41):
twenty five anniversary next month of congratulations, thank you. I mean,
studies show that that child free women are the happiest
group of people. Well, they do, but I will on
one thing to note is that for parents happy, there's more.
It's more of a roller coaster. Right. Well, I have
(17:04):
a question. So, from the very beginning, was this a
topic that you and your husband fully agreed on. Well,
it's funny it was, but we both assumed that we
would become parents. Um So. The choice not to become
a parent was one that we made over time. And
we got married pretty young. I was twenty two, he
(17:24):
was twenty three. This was he was my high school sweetheart,
um so, and I spent my whole teenage years babysitting,
I nanny throughout college. So I really did think that
I was destined for motherhood and my husband assumed the
same thing. And then over the years, um for the
first ten years or so of our marriage, I just
kept saying, I'm too young, I'm too young, I'm too young,
(17:46):
I'm not ready yet. And then by the time I
hit my mid thirties, when friends of mine were becoming mothers,
I realized, you know, I really don't think I want
to become mother so but it definitely was a process,
and my husband and I would check in with each
other every few years, and neither of us that felt
compelled at any point to do it. And then we
(18:08):
finally just embraced the reality that that we liked our
lives as it was as it was, and that we
wanted to stay child free. And I mean, you guys
are that that's great, because oftentimes that's not the case, right,
I know, yeah, I mean we we are really lucky,
frankly that we came to the same place, because that's
not always true for couples. And I do think this
(18:31):
is one of the biggest deal breakers for couples because
having kids is not something that you can compromise on.
Either you have them or you don't. And what do
you recommend to our listeners out there that don't want
to have kids, but they're you know, in a newish relationship.
It's not in their opinion. They don't even know if
they're going to get married or what's going to happen next.
(18:52):
So when do you think that conversation starts to happen.
And also how do you get that person to actually
believe you, because as I've heard, I've heard men all
the time, you know, or women say I don't want kids,
but like it's you know, ten years later they have
three little ones. Well, this is a question that I
get all the time from the child free people that
(19:12):
I meet with and work with. And I think it's
super important to be as honest as you can be
from the from the very beginning. Um. And as I
said earlier, taking people at their word is critical. Um,
you know, do people change their minds Sometimes they do. Yeah,
But um, better to be honest from the beginning than
(19:36):
than not. So I think the best way to head
it off again is to talk about It might feel
funny talking about having kids when you're newly dating a person, um,
but I think it's a signal of your values and
the life that you envisioned for yourself. And those are
things that I think people at any stage of dating
should be talking about and I have a question, do
you think that this decision comes, you know, from a
(19:59):
very very at a very young age, like to the
point where like something may have happened, Like a friend
of mine always says, people always ask me when I
say I don't have kids, did something happen when you
were younger? Do you have daddy issues? Like they started
like going into this rabbit hole of trying to figure
out and like diagnose why you've made this decision. Do
(20:20):
you think there's anything that happens in you know, nurture
that switches this um. The data don't indicate that that
that's the case. I have to confess that that was
the stereotype that I myself had of people who opt
out of parenthood. So when I went when I started
the research myself, I thought, Okay, I'm a special case
because I had a great childhood. My parents were wonderful
(20:43):
at their job, they're still married, but I must be unusual.
And what I learned was actually, many child free people
don't have kids because they understand what what a job
it was for their parents and what it took for
them to be good parents, and and you know, have
decided they want to dedicate their attention and their lives
to other causes. But um, there really isn't a lot
(21:06):
of evidence to suggest that child free people are more
likely to have had, you know, a terrible childhood than
people who have children. So it is a stereotype, it's
not supported. Yeah, And do you think if more Oftentimes
when celebrities choose not to have children, they just don't
talk about it. Do you think if it was more
(21:28):
spoken about then it would become more accepted or do
you think it would have any impact? Oh? I totally
think it would have an impact. And yeah, I mean
shout out to all of the celebrities who are child free,
please talk about it because those who have have made
such a difference. Not just to child free people, although
seeing you know, seeing people in the public eye who
(21:50):
are living lives of their choosing and and openly proclaiming
their choices can be so gratifying um as a child
free person, but also um opening up the conversation so
that everybody understands that parenthood is and can be and
should be a choice rather than a mandate. Um, I
think we'll serve everybody well. So the more people who
(22:13):
are in the public eye can be open about their choice,
the better for everyone. Yeah, I mean you would think
the fact that Oprah doesn't have kids would make it
like a more I hate to use it the word
in quotes acceptable thing because you know she's Oprah right exactly,
(22:33):
But I agree with you. But I also think she
has done a lot for the child free community by
simply being open about her choice. Um, we get to
see that. Oh yeah, even this amazingly successful, generous, kind,
wonderful person. It's not a mother now. It's incredible. And
thank you so much for sharing with us and giving
(22:55):
us your information, like all of your research. It's it's
been really helpful. So I appreciate at You're welcome. It's
been fun. Thank you. All Right, talks in Okay, Okay, guys,
(23:15):
we are back from our break. I wanted to get
a millennials perspective, so we are going to get Mary
on the phone and chat with her. Hi. Mary, thanks
for taking the time to speak with us, of course.
Um So I have a quick question for you in
the younger generation and between you and your friends, do
(23:36):
you think this is like a rising trend right now? Um?
I don't know, if it's my I don't know about
the younger generation. I'm thirty two, and all of our
friends have kids, So I don't know if it's maybe
um like now with like the millennials or younger kids,
like maybe that's what's going on, but I'm not sure.
(23:56):
For my group and my generation, I'm probably really one
of the few that, um that we're not having kids.
Are you married? Yes? Been married for five years? Been
with each other for wow? And did you guys speak
about it from the beginning? Um, it was never like
to sit down conversation when we started dating. I think
(24:18):
we were just both young and we're both kind of
the babies of the family of both of our sides.
Um that we kind of just like grew up, not
like grew up together. But I was like twenty one
or yeah, I'm twenty when we met, so we kind
of both just feel the same way. And do you
think that there was an actual reason why you decided
not to have kids? Yeah, I think honestly, I think
(24:42):
that kids are huge responsibility and I think, like watching
everybody have kids, I feel like it takes like a
really big toll on a lot of people's relationships. And
to be honest, it might sound selfish, but like, I
really enjoyed me in my husband's life. I like that
we can go see a movie a Wednesday without like
having the planet months before, and get a babysitter. I
(25:05):
like just like picking up and we go to Newport
and we can spend the night if we want. Like, Um,
I just really enjoy that. So that's funny. That's actually
the number we just had another specialist on and that
was the number one reason she said it ends up happening. Um,
do you think your husband feels exactly the same way. Yeah,
I feel like. I mean we both I feel like
(25:26):
we do. I mean we've talked about it. Obviously, it's
not like an unspoken you know, but I yeah, I
think he feels the same way. And we're both like
he has brothers and I'm the baby of three sisters,
and I feel like we both love being an aunt
and uncle and we get to babysit them and spoil
them and kind of take advantage of being a full
aunts and uncle and then we get to do our
(25:48):
own thing and travel and um, you know, not have
that huge responsibility. That's such a good point because so
often we think that because somebody doesn't want kids, that
it means they don't being around kids, But really that's
not the case at all. You love doing it, You
love being an auntie, love doing all of those things.
You just know for yourself, it's a personal decision. I
(26:11):
we love. All of our friends have kids, and the
kids come over all the time and we get to
be like the fun aunt and uncle, and I love
my nieces to death. I just don't personally, it's not
for me, but I like love them. It doesn't Yeah,
I think everyone thinks that just because you don't want kids,
everyone thinks you hate kids. But it's not it at all.
And how do your parents feel about it? I think
(26:35):
I am actually in the clear because I have older siblings.
I think it would be a lot harder if I
was the only child. It would be a lot more pressure.
But I think that they just know how we've We've
been together for so long and it's not like a
rash decision. It's just something. I think they get it now.
I think it's a lot. It seems a lot harder
raising kids today with social media and the phones, Like
(26:58):
we didn't grow up like that. I didn't get a
phone until I was driving at sixteen. So I think
they get it their grandparents now right. I mean, do
you feel like you get any pressure, any shame, or
any of those types of things by friends or people
that ask you, guys those questions or has it become
more acceptable? I think in the beginning I did. Like
(27:20):
when we got married at I was and no, none
of our friends had kids yet, so we everyone was like, oh,
are you gonna have They didn't understand it. But it's
so crazy now that everyone has kids, nobody questions it, like, yeah,
if you're if you're not on board, don't do it right.
It makes sense because it is so strange to me
(27:40):
that people get a little weirded out by it and
then they failed the need to start grilling and thinking
it's something that happened in their path, you know, all
of those things. Um. Yeah, And then so I have
to ask on the grilling topic, what what would you
do if your husband all of a sudden changed his
mind or you changed your mind? Um? I mean obviously
(28:05):
we would have it. We're like best friends and we
would have a discussion about it. I wouldn't know exactly
what would happen, but yeah, something obviously we would talk
about and be open about because it is a really
big topic and a really big responsibility that you used
to think of everything around it. It's not just you
have a kid and that's it. It's I just feel
(28:25):
like everyone gets it. Seems like everyone. It's a tool
on everyone because everyone's so tired, everyone's working. You have
to make a certain amount of money now to take
care of your family. So I would always have a
conversation with him about it. I know, I think that
you know. And there's also a whole group of people
who it's you know, are okay with having kids, but
(28:48):
are deathly afraid to get pregnant. And I mean so
that just adds like a whole another dynamic to it. Um.
I love hearing from you, and I hope that you
My asking questions is really just because that's the nature
of this podcast. We like to dig deep into all
different you know, thought processes. So I just wanted to
(29:09):
thank you for taking the time to talk with us.
Of course, thank you so much. Bye. Okay, guys, we
are back with Maxine Trump. I just watched her movie
(29:29):
to Kid or Not two Kid, and I just think
it's such an important message to be to get out there.
And I thank you for joining us. It's lovely to
be here. Thanks so much for having us. Can you
explain a little bit to our listeners what led you
to make this movie? You know, it's really interesting because
(29:51):
only when I got to kind of the so called
end of my biological child rearing opportunity, UM, did I
really start thinking I have to make a decision about
whether or not to have kids. It's never been something
i'd really thought about. In the same way I hadn't
really dreamt about the big white wedding. I hadn't dreamt
(30:14):
about kind of a lot of my future. I just
lived day by day. I was very much that kind
of person where let's see where this day brings me,
and what's the next adventure around the corner. And then
I was realizing the more that people were asking me
about my decision whether or not to have kids, I
had to make a decision, and it started getting me
kind of angry that I couldn't delay it like a
(30:37):
lot of men, can, you know. Um. And then I
was starting to look around and and try and look
for things that could help me with this decision. And
there was one shorter film out there, but and a
few books, but This was back in and it really
hadn't become the hot topic that it is now about
(30:58):
deciding whether or not to have children. So I did
what I do best, I guess, and picked up my
camera and I didn't enter into making a personal film.
I was just going to explore this subject. And then
I'm part of this great filmmaking community in New York
and I started showing test scenes to these groups and
(31:19):
they were like, you're you're holding back, You're not being clear,
and so that kind of turned the whole film around,
and you started really leaning into it and talking about
your fears and also the kind of the judgments that
put on you. And a lot of what we saw
in the film was kind of pressure from your mom almost,
which I know is probably hard to talk about. But
do you think that kind of started from a young
(31:41):
a young age, or you know, do you think that's
just something that happened once you started saying, you know, no,
it's not something we want to do. You know, it's
so interesting because my mom was pretty cool about it
at the beginning, you know, years ago, when obviously I
was at a different age. She said to me, you know,
don't look at having kids through rose tinted spectacles. You know,
(32:04):
she brought up three kids, she was a single mom
for a chunk of time, and I was like, oh,
thanks so much for being like super honest with me.
And then it kind of started shifting as I got
when she realized you were serious. I think so right,
um or or at least, I mean, we just didn't
talk about it very often because I just wasn't bringing
(32:26):
it up because I didn't need to write until I
needed to or until people are asking me more. And
she wanted to ask me more about my decisions. So
it kind of shifted, and I think that does happen
for a lot of people. You know, you get to
an age where you know you're either maybe maybe in
a committed relationship or you may be single and deciding
(32:49):
what's your decision? And um, if you are single, are
you going to then you know when is the best
time or who do you go? And you know, Dore dregs,
you do this not something you want to do. And
I think that's so often confused, is do you not
want to have kids? Or because of circumstances are you
not having kids? And I think that our nature is
(33:12):
to be inquisitive on that and not realizing what we're
putting on to the people that are deciding that they
don't want to have kids. You know. And I love
your story too because I know you've had a journey
as well, and I think, um, for my what I
call my child less sisters and brothers, because it happens
to men to you know, Um, it's really on my
(33:35):
heart for them in a big way because if they're
constantly getting asked, that's even worse than me getting constantly asked.
You know, I was told from a young age it
would be hard to have kids, but the door hadn't
completely closed for me. But for people that are on
that journey, I think it's really really difficult if they're
asked all the time because where are they on that
(33:57):
spectrum they could be at any point, you know. Um.
So I was really delighted actually because PBS commissioned me
to do this spinoff series. She's kind of amazing. I
didn't really congratulations you so much because PBS as well
aren't always notorious for being the most groundbreaking that works, right, Um,
but we have this amazing spinoff series which has allowed
(34:20):
me to explore the whole. Like I said, the spectrum
of fertility or infertility or decision making. And we have
these amazing episodes. We have one woman who's in her
fifties trying to decide when she stops doing IVF and
she's debating with a young woman who was a team
mum and that it was an amazing episode. And we
(34:41):
have a number of episodes where people, you know, we
had a gay couple talking to young gay guy about saragaceine.
And it's been really fascinating. I've learned actually a hell
of a lot over the six years of making it,
as you can imagine. So that was really exciting because
you know, fundamentally the film, I didn't want it to
be my own story, and we definitely explore other people's
(35:05):
situations for sure. Like Megan. I mean, this is one
that definitely, like just to kind of give the listeners backstory,
Megan is struggling to get medical permission to undergo elective sterilization. Yeah,
and she is twenty five, right, and she's gone to
like four different doctors fifth now, And I mean, the
(35:31):
my question is in regard to this, what if she
changed her mind? What if a doctor did agree to
it and then she did change her mind. Is it
the same as a vasectomy that you can have it reversed?
You know, that's a question that a lot of young
people when they are feeling certain about their decision, that
they get asked, and they really appreciate um people that
(35:55):
have gone before them that have shown that they haven't
changed their mind. We've had, we have a lovely few
characters in the film. One woman who's you know, in
her older six, in her sixties now, and she actually
lost her job when she came out about not having kids.
And Megan looks at her and looks at me and
looks at Laurel Carol. That's also in the film. People
(36:16):
have gone before that proved that their minds aren't changed.
But I did actually ask her because I did feel
that that could have been one of the reasons doctors
were using. And she said, listen, I'll go to therapy
for as long as they want me to go to therapy.
She's now five appointments later, she's almost five years later.
Her husband. She was asked to bring in her husband
(36:37):
to make sure her husband with sterilization. With her being sterilized,
I mean, you know, she's in charge of her own body,
and she's not being taken seriously and that breaks my
heart right and now that that was the one that
I was like, wow, you know, it's unbelievable. And then
kind of bringing it back to your story, Josh, your
husband is in the studio with us, and I think
(37:01):
what I got? Do you have you have kids already? Yes?
With with with an X yes. So do you think
that your conversations about you not wanting to have kids
may have gone differently had you not? Yeah? I think
that's a great question. And I think also because having kids,
not having kids is such a huge thing, it's sort
(37:23):
of impossible to say, oh, you know, yeah, if I
didn't have kids, I would have thought X, y Z.
You know what I mean, you're sort of helpless, but
to come from the perspective where you are in life.
So I feel like it probably would have been a
different conversation, you know, if I hadn't had kids. But
I kind of empowerless to know how different or you know,
how it would have gone differently because a lot of
the people that had written in were saying that there,
(37:46):
you know, and relationships where it's getting to the point
where they're significant, other might propose or to the getting
that point and they're scared to have that conversation or
they've casually mentioned it and it's kind of brushed over.
So it's like, how how do you really start to
set that expectation so that you're not ten years, fifteen
years into marriage and then all of a sudden, like
(38:07):
you have to separate because you can't agree on this topic.
Watch the film, honestly, I mean right, I mean that's
really why I made the film, because I want this space,
this kind of space for people where a the ice
has now been broken because they've watched the film is
a very very vulnerable kind of for me, cringe, cringe
(38:28):
some of the scenes that have intimates it is now.
But it's amazing that you're able to share yourself, you know,
share your journey. But I think that there's so many
people out there that are questioning themselves and then almost
putting that that pressure from other people onto themselves or
(38:50):
really feeling that pressure, you know, I've had in some ways.
I've got to weigh lightly that it's only been a
few people in my life. At one screening in Ohio,
when we were so excited, we did three screenings in
Ohio where they're trying to institute you know, these crazy
abortion laws. And one young woman came up with her
husband in floods of tears after a screening and said,
(39:11):
I came here and I couldn't tell anyone I was
coming to the screening, not one person. And I'm still
getting chills when I think about it now, because I
sort of feel like if if I've just made this
film just for her, then I started film my works
then I know, because the biggest thing is, you know,
that we want is to not feel alone absolutely, and
when we start feeling you know, ostracized in any way
(39:34):
or that we're alone or that people don't understand, then
we start putting our guards up and we're not living
the life that we want to live anyway. Um. But
another topic that's come up a bunch, especially in the
younger generation that I've spoken to, is actually the fear
of getting pregnant is why they don't want to have
kids versus not actually wanting kids. Yeah. Yeah, And I
(39:58):
love that you're bringing this up right now. And I know,
I mean, it's it's such a crazy topic for me,
but I like have to listen to my listeners because
I did it a big thing on infertility, and people,
you know, really reached out afterwards and said, we want
to hear the other side of it, Like we want
to hear the other side because there, you know, we
(40:20):
are out there getting questions constantly, and you know, I
have said some things in the past that like I
didn't realize that my phrasing could be hurtful to other people,
you know, just speaking from my own personal I remember
being at a place where like I was trying so
hard to get pregnant that I put so much pressure
on myself for and no one else was putting pressure
(40:43):
on me, but I felt all this pressure like this
is my job. And I said that, and people were furious,
like how could you say this, you know, like what
is wrong with you? You know, And really it was
just my own like it's so personal and what your
goal going through when it happens, you don't know until
you're actually there. And that wasn't to judge anybody else.
(41:07):
That was solely how I felt in that moment. And
you know, but I have a girlfriend that's like, listen,
I want to have kids, um, but I am scared
one to carry a baby. And I'm scared too that
I'm never going to meet somebody, you know, So it
goes so many different levels that and then she goes,
(41:27):
you know, I'm scared, and because of that, I don't
think I'm meeting people because I'm so scared all the
time that they're not going to be the one, and
then I'm not gonna be able to have kids. So
there's so many different levels to this, so many I
think finding the language to talk about it, and I
made mistakes too, I think a lot of people do,
because I think for many years we didn't really know
(41:51):
how to talk about not having kids or having kids
or how we were having kids. And I think as
we're seeing a rise in articles and podcasts, and you know,
it's it's great because it's it's given us this opportunity
to say, hey, did you did you hear that the
other day? Or well let's talk about like oh, let
me just play this clip from Teddy Show. You know. Um,
(42:12):
it allows us really to be much more open about it.
And I even felt like my shoulders go back a
little bit more when I bring this subject up instead
of kind of carrying in a corner. And you know, um,
so it's exciting. Actually, I think it's another way of
empowering women. Yeah, I think I think versus where we
want to clam up and not say anything, even if
we just share, as opposed to getting frustrated or angry
(42:36):
when somebody asked, because sometimes somebody's just asking, you know,
one of the specials earlier. Sometimes somebody's not asking because
they're judging. They're just meeting you and they're trying to
fill the conversation, so like they don't know what else
to say, so like, so do you have kids? Oh?
Why not? You know, there's just an open space and
she goes. So you just can alter the conversation however
(42:56):
you want. No, I don't, but you know what I
love reading or Bob going skiing or what. You know,
you just move the conversation along, or you you kind
of dig into it if you're closer with that person
and you want to actually have a deeper discussion about it.
Because I do also think that in your head, you
start to think, wow, if and I talked about this
(43:17):
with an earlier guess too is if they don't want kids,
maybe they don't like kids and putting that on somebody
and and maybe they don't or maybe they do, maybe
they love them. Yeah, but it's not ours to make
that decision totally, and and not to make people feel abnormal,
Like I think what you've just said, like, okay, that
maybe the icebreaker, maybe like asking what the weather is
(43:38):
going to be right today, and you're asking somebody if
they have kids. But then don't go to that next
level of either walking away climbing up the conversation, because
there's been so many people that have been hurt by
then the next question like, well, why have you decided
to you know that's that's strange or that's odd, or
you know, why do you not like kids? Or do
(43:59):
you know? It's like the follow up question that can
be really helpful. So I agree with you. I don't
I don't mind if somebody says do you have kids
or not? And I say, oh no, And as long
as they leave it there, but it's asked me something else.
Don't make me feel weird because I'm not weird because
there's us is that? Is that the number? Okay? So
(44:21):
good to know. Um gosh, well, I I do have
to tell you, guys, you've got to watch this movie,
especially if you're in a place where you just want
to be understood. There's so many different amazing women and
men in the movie who um are just being open
and honest about their journey. And truthfully, I think, regardless
(44:44):
if you want kids, don't want kids, can't have kids,
change your mind about kids, whatever it is you are,
you're not alone, and you know what it's whatever ends
up happening, and whatever you want, it's okay, and you
know what, the people that love you will understand and
you might benefit from the different decision making like I'm
(45:06):
sure you have. I mean, my sister has three kids
and benefits from the fact I didn't have kids, like
and yeah, mutually symbiotic relations and if you can start
to also at certain points not take everything so seriously
so you can't start to, like, you know, laugh and
have fun and enjoy the circumstances a little bit. I remember,
even when it came to my infertility stuff, I took
(45:29):
everything so personal that I alienated myself from my friends
and family because I didn't want them to know how
much I was struggling, and then that just made me
feel more alone. And I think the same can go
for if you're so worried about people asking you the
question about if you want kids or not, that then
(45:49):
you shut out the people in your life instead of
having the conversation, and then they don't know what to do,
and then they asked the uncomfortable questions because they're kind
of backed into a corner. Yeah, but I'm made please
you brought that up about your own journey and sort
of alienating because I think we have to be careful
about the words we use as well, Like I will
never there's you know, there can be terms that I
(46:10):
think are unhelpful um on the people when people decide
not to have kids as well because they've been so hurt.
You know, there's terms like reader and things like which
I all mumbies and I do not sign up to
that in any way. And I think what we've really
tried to do in the film is really be inclusive,
as inclusive as possible. And you bring up humor. There's
(46:32):
definitely moments in the film for sure, right because like
you say, like let's let's release some of this tension
because all that heaviness, like what is it gonna do?
You're gonna explode and you're probably gonna explode on the
wrong person about the wrong thing. Um, But I you know,
I want the listen. I encourage the listeners to watch
(46:53):
the movie, but also keep asking us these questions, keep
keep putting it out there, because the more that we
all talk about it, the more that we're all educating
ourselves on the way to talk about it so that
we're not hurting the people in our lives, we're supporting them.
So um, thanks you guys so much for coming in.
I really appreciate it. Thanks, thank you guys so much
(47:16):
for tuning in to another week of Teddy Tea pod.
I loved exploring the other side of this and what
great guests we had and listeners, please keep sending us
in things you want us to talk about. We love
it and we want to get some of your answers answered,
So send an email into Teddy t at I heart
radio dot com. Thanks for listening, Subscribe to tradio or
(47:42):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Teddi Mellencamp
Tamra Judge
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