Legally Brunette: Ellen Greenberg - Suicide or Homicide?

First, Emily and Shane are giving an update on Diddy’s sentencing and the killer that was finally identified in the Yogurt Shop Murder case.

Then, we’re getting into the case of Ellen Greenberg. This first-grade teacher was found by her fiancé with 20 stab wounds, and it was declared a suicide. With all the evidence that’s been presented, is it possible this was a homicide and the killer is still walking free?

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane
with Shane Simpson. First of all, just a reminder to
everyone that we are now on our own feed, so
when we have weekly episodes they will go on to
our new own Legally Brunette feed. So please make sure that,
if you haven't done so already, make sure that you

(00:21):
find us wherever you listen to your podcast, make sure
you follow us, leave a review if you would like
join the community, Join the community. All right, We're going
to do a few updates first before we go into
the Ellen Greenberg case. First of all, I know that
you've probably seen Diddy in the news again, so if
you do, remember that the jury acquitted Combs of racketeering
and sex trafficking charges back in July, but convicted him

(00:44):
on two of the lesser charges which we're transporting former
girlfriends for prostitution. The judge Supermanian sentenced Sean Ditty Coombs
just recently to fifty months in prison and find him
five hundred thousand dollars and ordered five years of supervised release.
Before he was sentenced, Comb's addressed the judge begging for

(01:05):
mercy and apologizing for his sick actions. You know, I
also saw him. I don't know if you saw this,
but I also saw that his defense team made a
like a montage, like a video what of him, like
being with his family. I think they were trying.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
To show they're trying to make him like a human.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, like, yeah, they're trying to humanize them. So apparently
they showed some video montage of him, you know, with
like his kids and being a dad. It's like, forget
about all that other shady stuff that he was involved.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
In, just as the real trial right here.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
So, prosecutors had pushed for more than eleven years, while
the defense sought fourteen months, which would have equaled the
time he had already served. Since Combs has been in
custody since September of twenty twenty four, that would have
been time served. He was already done fourteen months, so
obviously his defense was pushing for the amount of time
he's already served. He will receive credit for over a

(02:00):
year that he's served, but however, he's still going to
have to serve the fifty months.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Fifty months do they say, like when he's eligible for
parole or any any early.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
I don't I don't know that, but usually you know,
just based upon just what we know in general terms,
most people serve about half of their sentence unless.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
It's a federal federal crimes crime, right, Yeah, I think
he's obligated to serve like eighty Either way, it's not enough.
It's only a couple of years. Really, three more years
at the most.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
I also read today, right before we started doing this podcast,
I saw an article that said that he had already
booked a speaking engagement prior to his sentencing that I
guess he was so sure that he was gonna, you know,
get released. Yeah, he had, he already had a speaking engagement.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
That clearly he already had everyone signed the NBA's new party, right.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
So that's where we're at with Diddy. Also, if you
haven't listened yet, we did do an episode on the
yogurt shop murders, which was in the city of Austin.
This was back in nineteen ninety one, and we were
talking about when we just recently did this episode, about
how there was some DNA evidence. You remember, at the
end of the episode of the yogurt shot murders, we
talked about how there was some DNA evidence and I

(03:14):
had read that the FBI had tested it and they
felt like they knew who it was, but they weren't
giving that information.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, privacy concern.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
We were wondering right what that was about. And then
lo and behold, right after we released that episode, there
came all this new information that they had solved this crime,
which I have never seen happen. But the timing of
it was impeccable.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
So I think we cause an outrage we did. I
think everyone was, Okay, okay, we'll release it.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Right.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Everyone listens to legally Brunette and then they were just
they were just like we.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Found it like this iscpted, Everyone called their congressman and
it was all exactly squared away.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
So good job Shane making things happen in the in
the true crime world. So in June of twenty twenty five,
Detective Daniel Jackson he determined that a thirty eight cartridge
that was found in a drain at the scene of
the I can't believe it yogurt had not been submitted
into the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network in many years,
and that the software had greatly improved. So in July

(04:08):
of twenty twenty five, they received a hit to an
unsolved nineteen ninety eight murder in Kentucky. In August to
twenty twenty five, Detective Jackson requested a y STR DNA
search from all labs in the US that kept y
STR profiles, and the South Carolina State Lab was the
only lab that found a complete y STR match from

(04:30):
a nineteen ninety Greenville, South Carolina sexual assault and murder.
The profile belonged to known serial killer and rapist Robert
Eugene Brashers. Robert Eugene Brashers committed suicide back in nineteen
ninety nine with the same make and model of weapon
used to shoot Amy Errors, which was one of the
girls that was murdered in the Yogurt Shot murders, with

(04:53):
a three eighty pistol. Detective Jackson also learned that on
December eighth of nineteen ninety one, less than forty eight
hours after the Yogurt shot murders, Brasher's was stopped by
Border patrol at a westbound checkpoint between El Paso, Texas
and Las Cruces, New Mexico. He was driving a stolen
car out of Georgia and was in possession of a
thirty eight pistol. We have confirmed that this is the

(05:14):
same gun that he used to commit suicide in nineteen
ninety nine, as the serial numbers match.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
So oh wow, So there we go. Yeah, so the
bullets matched.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Right, that's what they said, and the DNA matched, So.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
All the way back in early nineties they had that evidence.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well they saved the bullet right right, but they couldn't.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
They didn't match it until more recently.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Wow, that's crazy. It just goes to show you there's
so much room for air, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
And it goes to show you how how how scientific
things can be, and how the science is constantly improving,
and that things that couldn't be solved years and years
ago now when you take a second look, right, because
they can be. And it's also did they hold onto
the evidence? Did they preserve it correctly? Can retest the DNA?

(06:11):
All right, let's move on. This is a new Hulu
series called The Death of Ellen Greenberg, and the big
question that looms over this case was did Ellen Greenberg
commit suicide or was it a murder? I will tell
you first of all, I watched the series. It's a
three parter on Hulu. It's called Death and Apartment six

(06:32):
oh three. What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? I watched it
twice actually, because you always miss things the first time,
and I don't know.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's like I watched the time you thought it was
suicide the same time you watched you thought it was
a murder.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
It's like, I watch it and I think one way,
and then I'm like, I'm gonna watch it again, and
then I just I don't know. We're just gonna go
through it because this is a convoluted, complex case, and honestly,
at the end of the day, it reminds me of
just like the Karen Reid case, where the only people
that know what happened don't speak don't speak, And I

(07:06):
don't know if we'll we'll ever actually know what happened,
but we're going to talk about it. So let's just
do a brief synopsis what we do.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's what we do. We did we unsolve We don't
solve mysteries. We don't we talk about unsolved mystery.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
We talk about them, we dissect it, we give opinions,
and then.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
And then it'll get solved and then someone else will
follow it podcast.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
So let's do a brief synopsis of this case if
you haven't heard about it. In January of twenty eleven,
a first grade teacher named Ellen green Bird was found
dead with twenty stab wounds in her kitchen in a
Philadelphia apartment.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
First of all, okay, right there, you think murder.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Right, And I will tell you I didn't know a
lot about this case.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
By it.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
I had heard of it before. And when I say
I had heard of it, I mean I saw headlines, right.
And when you see a headline and the headline is
stab twenty times, suicide or murder, you say, well, she
was clearly, yeah, murdered, because how does someone stab themselves
twenty times? But we're clearly going to get into that.

(08:04):
After breaking down a latched door, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance,
discovered her body with a ten inch long kitchen knife
sticking out of her chest and stab wounds to her
back and also to her head. At the scene, police
shocked all of Ellen's family and friends when they ruled
her death as suicide. This is immediately like, this is
not an in depth investigation.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
This is at this point it doesn't need to be.
If you see all those wounds, you gotta be quick
to assume.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, let's let's just take it back a step, because
I don't think they knew that there were twenty stab
wounds until the medical examiner did the autopsy later.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
So they walk in and they see blood everywhere, knife wounds,
and they think their first thought is suicide.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
What department is this? Well, let's go through it again.
We gotta take a deep dive. So after police removed
her body, a professional crime scene cleaning company wipe down
the kitchen thoroughly. The next day. I believe it was
the next.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Day crime scene cleaning.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
It was a crime scene.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
It wasn't like, let's lene housekeepers. We need Yeah, I
need it.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
I need that company.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's not cutting it. What we got.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
We got a lot of kids and a lot of dogs. Then,
just days later, during her funeral, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's
office ruled the case of homicide. Then, inexplicably, four months later,
Ellen's cause of death was switched back to suicide. The
city of Philadelphia closed the case without further investigation, and
Ellen Greenberg's bizarre and tragic death is the subject of

(09:28):
what we just talked about, the ABC News Studios docuseries
Death and apartment six' oh three. What happened to Ellen Greenberg?
All right, let's start with a timeline of events and
let's go through this. So we first we have to
talk about Ellen and Sam's relationship. So back in two
thousand and seven, Ellen met her fiance Sam Goldberg through
a mutual friend and they went on a blind date.
After three years of dating, Sam proposed to Ellen on

(09:49):
the beach during a trip to California, and Ellen and
Sam moved to an apartment in Mannayank, Philadelphia together. This
is still where I was. Still Back in twenty ten
and the month leading up to her death, Ellen's parents
and friends began to notice the significant change in her behavior. Ellen,
who had always been cheerful and composed, became increasingly anxious
and stressed. When questioned about these changes, Ellen attributed her

(10:12):
anxiety to work pressures and the stress of planning her wedding,
which was scheduled for August.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Of that year.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
In December of twenty ten, her anxiety had reached a
point where she even expressed a desire to quit her job.
You know, she did this multiple times. They showed text
messages in the series where she's she's texting her mom,
and she's texting her fiance saying how much she hates
her job and how stressful it is, you know, and
it is. It is really hard to have a job.
I taught high school for four years before I went

(10:39):
to law school, and I would tell you that was
my least favorite job out of all the jobs I
have had. It was stressful teaching. I taught high school.
She's teaching first grade. But you know, you know her
colleagues and the other people in the school.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Or was it a newfound career, a new school maybe,
you know, a lot of changes, right, getting married, So
there's a lot of reasons for her to be stressed.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, And I don't question her level of stress. I
think she was clearly stressed out by this job. And
you know what bothered me when she would text her
fiance and say how much she disliked her job and
that she wanted to quit. He would say things like,
you're not a quitter, and that bothered me.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
That was his way of trying to motivate here, like
you're better. Yeah, but that's not the that's not listening
to her problem.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Right, And I just felt like she's clearly, I mean,
this isn't just like I had a bad day. To me,
it was she was spiraling, and she was becoming increasingly
depressed and increasingly upset. And you know, I don't know
if there's other things. There's speculation that maybe there were
other things going on in their relationship that was adding
to her stress that she just didn't want to talk about.

(11:43):
But the only thing that she was verbalizing to anyone
was how stressful her job was. And I it just
it makes me sad because I feel like people missed
the the mark on how clearly sad she was. And
this is a young girl. I mean, she graduate from college.
She's clearly intelligent and talented.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
She got as far as being able to get her
teaching credential.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, I mean, she could find another job easily. I
just I wish the fiance was like, if you're that miserable,
it's not worth it. You should you know, we should
do something and you should find something else.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
I feel like you're trying to teach me something.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, so are you listening to what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Be stressed?

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Well, I'm always stressed. I'm always stressed, all right.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Duly noted she.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Was expressing a desire to quit her job, And then
she also said she wanted to move back home with
her parents, which is another kind of telling factor that
she's supposed to get married to Sam coming up, and
she's saying she's asking her parents if she can move
back home. So I don't know how how that works
and what she had in her mind or what was
going on that she is engaged, she's planning a wedding,

(12:52):
she's getting married soon, but.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
She sounds like she has anyone to talk to, well
her mom, you know, well at least her close what
should be her closest fiance, right.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
She says in a text to her parents, I want
to leave this place, get me out. Shortly thereafter, Ellen
had also asked a cousin who lived in the Philadelphia
area if she could temporarily move into the cousin's home
and stay with her family. When asked if her fiance
would also be joining her, Ellen did not respond. As
Ellen's anxiety continued to escalate, she saw a psychiatrist on
three different occasions who prescribed her klonipin and ambient. You know,

(13:24):
Ambien's a sleep aid and Clonipin's a type of anti
anxiety medication. Ellen initially reported to our loved ones that
the medication seemed effective and that she felt better. Now
we move on to twenty eleven, Ellen texted her mom, Sandra,
I'm starting the meds. I know you don't understand, but
I can't keep living with feeling this way. She then

(13:45):
saw her psychiatrist, doctor Ellen Berman, and the notes from
the visit say that she wants things in control my
whole life. She's been a hard worker, she's anxious that
she's not sleeping. Her job sucks. So again it all
goes back to those kid her career, Oh yes, and
those first greaders. Her psychiatrist also mentions that she never

(14:05):
revealed that there was any issues with her fiance. She
always spoke always the anxiety was always work related as
far as what she was expressing expressing. In January of
twenty eleven, Ellen saw psychiatrist doctor Ellen Berman again and
the notes from that visit said she wants to quit,
but mom and fiance don't want her to. She can

(14:27):
get out of contract with two weeks notice when she
starts to work on something and she starts thinking about
everything else, and she's not suicidal. So those are the
notes from the psychiatrists. This is shortly before her death.
Then on January nineteenth, Ellen saw the psychiatrist once more.
This was her third visit. I know she had three
visits with the psychiatrists before the incident happens. And the

(14:48):
notes from the visit say Ellen is way better, She
feels seventy five percent better. Agrees she should just get
through till June, which would be the end of the
school year, right right, And she tends to walk around
compulsive neatning up. That's a mean, that's like a nervous reaction.
Sometimes I do that if I have anxiety. It's like
you can't sit still. You have to constantly be doing things.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Have you ever noticed when you're mad at me, I
clean the house?

Speaker 1 (15:14):
No, but I noticed that you never noticed that I
noticed that I clean the house when.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
You're mad at me. No, you go in the bed
and look at Instagram and then I'm doing laundry. Oh
my gosh, So I can relate, Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
So January twenty second to twenty eleven, Ellen sent out
her save the dates for her upcoming wedding, which was
going to happen on August thirteenth of twenty eleven. Her
friend also had an upcoming wedding and they went shopping
for bridesmaid's dresses that day. While looking for a bridesmaid's dress,
Ellen began crying and told her friend, I'm so sorry.

(15:46):
I know I'm not myself, but I'll get it together.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Doesn't sound like seventy five percent. No.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
January twenty six, twenty eleven. So this is four days
after she goes shopping for bridesmaid's dresses with her and
she's obviously not doing well. She's crying, she's saying she's
going to get herself together. This is the day of
her death. So for context, there was a huge snowstorm
that day. They call it a nor easter. I never
heard of that before. Have you heard of that before?
A nor' easter snow? I saw that multiple times in

(16:17):
articles and when they.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Were talking about like where it comes from, like northeast
or something.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Like that, I don't know. At seven am, this is
the day of her death. At seven am, Ellen spoke
to her mother. At twelve pm, Ellen received a text
from a friend, Yeah, you are getting out early. This
is in reference to the school closing early because of
the snow, and she replied with quote, thank goodness. At
one point fifteen.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
She left her job, So thank goodness. In reference to
having a short work.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, having a short day. Right at one twenty six,
Ellen stopped for gas and topped off her tank. You know.
And I've heard some people say like, if you knew
you were going to commit suicide, why would you fill
your gas tank up or something like that.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Oh, I don't know that she knew she would, right,
And assuming it was a suicide, she contemplates it probably
regularly throughout the day, some days more than others. Right,
But she's not thinking like, I'm going to kill myself
on Tuesday evening, you know, if there's a snorrestorm when
we get out early. But first I gotta go grocery shopping.
I mean, they don't think like that. I don't imagine.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
So then at two thirty she's in her apartment and
she remotely enters the grades for her first grade students.
Then at three forty seven pm, Ellen sends her final text.
At four forty five pm, and I think this is
I think we should hold onto this time period. Four
forty five pm, Ellen uses her laptop. I don't know
does Ellen use her laptop? Someone uses her laptop?

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Okay, her laptop is used.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Her laptop is used at four forty five pm.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
In her like, like, in what fashion does it used?

Speaker 1 (17:48):
I don't know. I think they just I think they
just know. I don't know how it was used, but forensically,
for whatever reason, you can someone use the laptop. At
four forty five pm, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance leaves the
couple's home, and surveillance at their apartment building captures Sam
entering the on site GEM. Now we know in the
apartment that they live in that there are there is
security in the lobby, okay, so you can see him

(18:11):
get off the elevator at that time time cameras cameras
that security. Yeah, well security cameras. Okay, you can see
him get off the elevator and go to the gym.
So you know that he left the apartment around four
forty five and he does go to the gym. Then
at five thirty PM, the cameras catch him exiting the
GEM on the first floor of the apartment complex and

(18:31):
then he returns to the apartment. When he returns to
the apartment at five thirty, he realizes he can't enter
because the latch was locked from the inside. So despite
using his key and banging on the door, Ellen would
not respond or unlock it. And you know what I'm
talking about. With one of those latches, it's that swing
latch like.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
The old ones were like a chain, right, This is
like a latch that only from the inside could be locked,
and usually you can open it a little bit, if
at all.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
So from five thirty to five forty two pm, Sam
repeated calls Ellen and sends her text. Also, they interviewed
another couple that lives on that same floor and the
only sound or disturbance they heard was Sam.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Trying to bust through the door trying to.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Get into the apartment. Okay, so here are some texts
that he's sent. Hello, open the door. What are you doing?
I'm getting pissed. Hello, you better have an excuse? What
the ah? You have no idea? So those are the
texts that he's sending.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
I have an issue with this. Okay, maybe it's premature
to break this down, but if you're not answering the door,
I've learned in life, if someone's like not answering the door,
they're running late. The first thing you do is see
if they're okay. So if I'm banging on the door,
and you're going to answering. I'm gonna get frustrated, But
I'm also gonna think, are you laying in a pull
of blood or something like? This guy is getting pissed

(19:52):
at her, like like she's refusing to open the door
for him. Is that normal behavior for them?

Speaker 3 (19:58):
Well?

Speaker 1 (19:58):
I don't know, And that's a good question, and that's
something that probably should be analyzed. Is he's not saying
are you okay?

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Or why aren't you opening the door?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, he's not calling her mom and saying have you
talked to Ellen? Is she okay?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
He's pissed, right, He could also just assume she's asleep.
I mean that would be well.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
I guess also maybe he's thinking, why did she do
the swing last right?

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right? He knows she's inside or someone's inside because it's
locked from the inside, but he's mad at her like
like she's refusing.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, then that's a good that's an interesting observation or
question because did they get in a fight before he
left the apartment. I don't know, because is he thinking that.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
She did the lock right? Right? If they had an
ongoing issue, then it would make sense like you're ignoring
me open the door, like, this isn't what we do,
but that's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
So then after sending these texts, Sam then went downstairs
again to the lobby and he asked Phil Hamton, the
door man, to help him break the lock. Phil told
him that he wasn't allowed to leave his post. So
at this time, Sam, this.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Is even another problem. Did he go to the doorman
and say something might be wrong she's not opened the
door or he I mean, so far, you're acting like
he's saying, she's mad at me and won't open the door.
Can he help me break the lock? Right?

Speaker 1 (21:22):
So, you're saying if he was truly concerned about her
safety and health, he could have said you need to
call nine one one, because she says that would.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Have been if he had, if he had concerns for her,
that would be I think a typical responsive like she's
not opening what's going on? Instead, it's more like, at
least from what you just read, he's saying, she's she
won't open the door for me. Can you break the lock?

Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yes, he does ask that's odd the door man.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
I'm not saying he's guilty. I'm just talking about that
behavior isn't it wouldn't be typical.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
So the doorman, Phil, who they also interview on the HULUCI,
tells him that he's not allowed to leave his post.
I guess they had changed for this apartment complex. They
had changed up some things in the security or close.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, it would make sense. He's like, if I leave here,
then I compromise the front door, which is what his
assignment is.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
So at five point forty four, neighbors heard Sam call
Ellen's name out several times. At six pm, Sam goes
downstairs again to request help from Phil, but Phil tells
him that it's against policy. He offers to call Ellen instead.
Ellen Cell gets two calls from Venice Lofts, but no
one answers. Ellen Cell gets another call from Venice Lofts,

(22:36):
but no one answers, so Phil offers to call the police.
This is at six oh seven and six'. Ten so
now the security or the door, man whatever you want
to call, him is now calling and she's not. Answering
then at six twenty three, Pm sam is seen on
the surveillance camera entering the elevator and at six point
thirty pm he proceeds to break down the door to their. Apartment,

(23:00):
inside he Finds ellen slumped on the floor in the,
kitchen leaning against the cabinets with blood, everywhere and he
calls nine to one. One all, Right so here's where
it gets all muddled to, me clearly maybe possibly, wait
she is it?

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Clearly or MAYBE i don't.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Know this is Where i'm saying it's. Muddled it's all it's.
Hard the two scenarios are she either committed suicide Or
sam killed. Her there is no other.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Option, yeah your analytical skills today.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Exactly, however he claims that when he left the apartment
to go to the, gym that she was.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Alive and how long was he?

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Gone he was gone thirty, minutes forty, Minutes so she
either committed suicide within that small, timeframe latched the, door committed, suicide,
right or it's also possible that if it was a,
murder that he killed her before he went to the.
Gym it's.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Possible so that's a.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Possibility but then what about the door, Latch, well that's another.
Conundrum BUT i guess it is possible that he could
have had the forethought to manipulate because there are, videos
you can watch videos of how to manipulate that swing.
Latch you can pull. It there's, like there's ways to pull.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
It we don't have an answer to. This but he
from the, inside he could have latched it and then
pull forced it. Open that's a little bit of a.
Stretch NOW i think about, it because it's you're, saying
so it could busted it open from the. Inside, oh
you're saying it was never actual to make it look Like,
no it was latch like for, instance it's a little

(24:39):
bit of a. Stretch but he goes, inside he kills or,
whatever he latches the door from the inside and he's
on the, inside and now he pulls the door open
and busts it open with the. Latch so it looked
like from the outside he kicked it, in but it's
from the inside he pulled it.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Open but he goes to the. Gym so when does
he go to the? Gym and then when he shuts the,
door what does he?

Speaker 2 (24:57):
DO i don't. Know you're, right this is a. Mess
it IS i said it was a.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Stretch, yeah, Okay so he calls nine one one upon
entering the apartment and finding her in the.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Kitchen, well, no, wait then if it's, latched the only
way it could have, been then could you just shut
down my? Theory, okay the only way it could have been,
was like you, said he manipulated it to latch it
on his way out after he had killed. Her had
he killed her at, all.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Or there's the possibility that it was never latched and
somehow this guy was just so diabolical and smart he
knew he.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Just busted the latch.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Somehow, yeah BECAUSE i took UP i have a. Photo
she shook a picture on the screen WHEN i was watching,
it because they have a photo of the, latch AND
i wanted to see if it was actually see, it describe.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
It so you thought you you thought you saw the.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
CRIME i was, Like i'm gonna solve this right.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Now zoom.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
In, Yes i'm zooming. In so look this is what
the door looks.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Like, yeah it's a latch like a, hotel like the.
Hotel what this? Is what the? Door oh that's it?
Broken oh that's the real. One let me see.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
It, yeah that's the real.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
One this is.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Ok this is the crime scene.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Photo oh, YEAH i don't know if we're going to
kick that. OPEN i think it would be a lot
more bust. NIGHT i remember WHEN I keller got locked
in a bathroom door AND i busted it. Open, yeah
you did how much wood?

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Damage that was so hot when you did.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
THAT i can break the door tonight if you, Want
i'll lock you in the bathroom and break you.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Out that was actually At Elizabeth vargas's. House i'd never
bring up housewise on the, podcast but this is probably
the first Time i've ever done. That but that Was
Elizabeth vargas's. House that big color was stuck in the.
Callerroom she did some remodeling on that house and they
did a crappy job on a bathroom And keller went
to the bathroom and he got locked in it for

(26:44):
a long, time an.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Hour No.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Joe we slid the, iPad his iPad underneath the bathroom doors.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
To entertain them so that he could.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Watch videos until we could get him. Out and So
elizabeth sends over the handyman to get my child out
of the. Bathroom the handy man cannot get this child,
out he can't get the lock to. Work shane gets
so frustrated he just goes all a hulk on it
and he just takes the whole door.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
DOWN i think it was two.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
KICKS i don't, know but it was.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Hot it was a lot more wood broken than that little.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Thing, yes it was all. Right the operator Instructs sam
to Remove ellen's sweater and to ADMINISTER. Cpr when he
lifts her slouched, head he discovers the knife lodged in her,

(27:33):
chest and the operator instructs him to stop ADMINISTERING cpr and,
says the paramedics are on the. Way we have to
go into this a little bit deeper. Though when HE'S i,
actually they show the nine to one one call wor
you can listen to. It the nine one one operator
says to him multiple times because he says she's bleeding
and she's on the. Floor the operator, says look at

(27:54):
her chest to see what's the movie, like look at her,
chest look at her. Chest she says it a few.
Times then she, says, okay, hey you need to DO,
cpr and then he says something to the effect of
DO i have to or something like. That, no he
does this IS i, mean he, says, LIKE i GUESS
i have. To like he's. Not he's not, like, YES
i have to GIVE cpr to.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Her, no it is a little bit of a laughable.
Response it.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Is he says something to the effect of, LIKE i
GUESS i really have to or. Something then, okay remember
this woman is slumped. Down she slumped, like she slid
down the. Cabinets, okay she's, sitting her legs are sprawled
out in front of. Her she has a knife in her.
Heart he walks into the, apartment he calls nine to one,
one and he never makes reference to there being a

(28:36):
knife in her heart until like halfway through the, call
when she tells him that he needs to DO cpr
and he's, like, okay all, right and she's, like you
got to open her. Shirt you gotta get her sweater.
Off and he's, like.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
OKAY i forgot one small. Detail, yeah there's a knife
in her.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Heart and then all of a sudden he's, like oh,
wait she stabbed. Herself so the way the nine one
one call sounds is like he never noticed the knife
sticking out of her chest and then he notices it
on the nine one one call and then he, says
she stabbed. Herself, no she fell on her. KNIFE i.

(29:13):
Know so the nine one one call is.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Strange everything's strange so.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Far and, again we've talked about how in certain circumstances
that we've never been in like when we even talk
about The Brian coberger cases and the fact that the
girls didn't call until.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Right we don't know what reactions there, are, Right we're.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Trying not to be judgmental because we've never been in that.
Situation i've never walked into an apartment and someone needed
nine to one. One, however his responses do sound. Strange
she sounds like he doesn't want to give HER. Cpr
he doesn't seem to notice the.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Knife sounds like he doesn't want to bring her back to.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Life, yeah sticking out of her chest until. Later AND
i don't know how you don't notice. THAT i mean to,
me when you open the door and you walk in the,
apartment that would be the first thing that you notice
is that she a knife plunged into her.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Chest, right did he move her at? All like before
He because my thought would be if you walk and
you see someone like, that you would be quick to
call nine one, One but you'd probably also be quick
to go attend them in some, way even if it's
just checking on them or moving them in a more comfortable,
position or pulling the knife out or. SOMETHING i don't
if you would do.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Something, Yeah so they Find ellen so then at six
thirty six, pm emergency responders arrive on. Scene that's because
once he says that there's a knife in her, obviously
the operator, says then don't DO, cpr, like don't touch.
Her they Find ellen in a semi upright position between
two corner, cabinets with a serrated knife plunged four inches

(30:43):
into her, chest a strainer filled with blueberries and an
orange appearing freshly slice rested on the. Counter two clean
knives are in the, sink and the knife block looked
as if it fell. Over ellen suffered twenty stab wounds in. Total,
however a caveat just about the stab. Wounds they don't
know that there's twenty stab wounds until after she's taken

(31:05):
away from the scene and the medical examiner they just
see the one knife in see and she has a
wound in the top of her head that's like two.
Inches so it's six forty two. Pm ellen's pronounced dead
at the. Scene when police Questions, sam he tells them
About ellen's medication and her poor mental. Health the police
rule her death as. Suicide, now they say that they

(31:27):
ruled it a suicide pretty quickly one because they said
that the door was latched from the. Inside, NOW i
don't know how much they investigated the door actually being
last or they just take his Door kate, suicide or
if they just take his word for it and they
see because WHEN i was.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Looking at your, picture it looks like the latch you,
COULD i mean you could you could literally gank it
also just with your, hand like you, know because it
protrudes out and you can just pull it with your
hand like a lever and then try To and it
only had like the screws busted. Out it wasn't that.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
Impressive so they take his word for that it was
from the. Inside so the police are, saying, okay well
the door was locked from the. Inside they look and
then the balcony there's fresh. Snow there's no, footprints so they're, like,
well it couldn't have been anyone. Else there's no surveillance
video of anyone else going in or out to go

(32:19):
up to that. Floor the neighbors don't hear any disturbance
other than him yelling.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Her doorman never left his, post, right.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
The doorman didn't leave his. Post so and then he
Says sam says that there's mental health issues and that
she was kind of spiraling and that she was taking
these new. Medications and so they rule a suicide pretty
much on scene and then the body's taken. Away So
january twenty, seventh two thousand and, eight.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
At least left it, open like do they have to
determine right then and? There they certainly should have left it.
Open it's. QUESTIONABLE i don't.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Know they just said they found him, cooperative AND i guess.
HE i don't, know he, cooperating and the door latch was,
busted and she had some mental health issues and there
was no, Suit there was no suicide, note and as
far AS i, REMEMBER i think at that time there
was nothing. There she also had a, laptop AND i
believed that they didn't find any kind of evidence or

(33:18):
search or anything on her laptop to indicate.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
Suicide, yeah but.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
They still ruled it a suicide at that, time not even,
undetermined just. Suicide that was the police. Investigation you. Know
that was another THING i was thinking, About AND i don't.
KNOW i did end up reading later BECAUSE i, thought,
well who else did he? Call did they do a
forensic analysis on his phone at? All did they see
not only was he calling her or texting, her but

(33:43):
was he calling anyone? Else was? He you?

Speaker 3 (33:45):
Know?

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah and you, KNOW.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
I don't know about. THAT i did read that there
was some inconsistencies later with him saying he had called
certain people or, whatever and then it oh the lot.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Because he don't never really bother. Me it's, like, okay
so someone said they called PERSON a and then PERSON,
b and then they said it WAS b and THEN.
A i, mean there's a lot going. On no one really.
Is no one's keeping track of what's going.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
On so On january twenty, seventh twenty, Eleven ellen's body
was removed from The venicelov departments and transported to a
morgue for an. Autopsy Before ellen's autopsy was completed and
the results of the professional examination were, Known Sam goldberg's,
lawyer who is his, uncle who is also a, Lawyer James.

(34:33):
Schwartzman this is very interesting to, me and this is
what pushes me over into the murder. Side so let's
talk about. This Sam goldberg has an uncle who is a.
Lawyer his name Is James. Schwartzman he called the apartment
building's property manager requesting access To ellen And sam's. Apartment

(34:54):
so here's a, Doctor Marlon osborne is performing an autopsy On.
Ellen in his, examination he notes multiple stab wounds to
the chess abdomen in the back of the. Neck he
creates a draft autopsy report and finds. Homicide so here's
where the conflict. Begins you've got the police who find
her body that night and rule it a suicide immediately

(35:15):
based upon certain factors the door, Latch sam being cooperative
and no one else could have hosted. Something but then
the medical examiner does the autopsy and then he rules
it a. Homicide so now you've got two conflicting, reports,
right and then you've.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Got i'd side with the homicide at this. Point but then.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
You've got the uncle Of, sam who is a, lawyer
who is now calling the apartment complex and wants access
into the. Apartment so the property manager Of Venice Loft,
apartments her name Is Melissa, Ware she contacts the police
after the uncle calls and asks for access to the
apartment because he says he wants to get a suit
for his. Nephew the police apartment Tells melissa it was

(35:57):
not an active crime scene, anymore and then they gave
her the number of a crime scene cleanup crew to
use for the.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Apartment how soon is this after the C it's like
the next. Day, WOW i would, UH i would not
BE i don't know if i'd be so quick to
CLEAN i don't. KNOW i don't.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
Know, AGAIN i believe it was a if it was,
me you were, dad, Okay, yeah and it was clearly
SO i know it's a suicide Because i'm the only, person,
RIGHT i know it's a.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
Suicide, Yeah i'd call a cleanup crew probably quickly. Too.
Yeah but also IF i murdered, you i'd call it
cleanup quickly. TOO i don't have any.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Answers, well it's his uncle that is asking for access
to the apartment, immediately.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Right right, Right and he doesn't get a. Suit he,
says it's under the.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
Pretense of wanting to get a, suit probably for the. Funeral,
okay police say. So when she asked the, police which
was the right thing to, do, right she doesn't grant
this guy, Access she, says let me call the.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Police, first the crime, scene, Right so she does the right.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Thing she calls the police and she's, LIKE i don't you,
know CAN i let him? In and they're like, sure
it's already been ruled, suicide and, oh and by the,
way you can let him. In and also here's the
number of a crime scene cleanup, crew so that they
can go in and just really just wipe the blaze down.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Perfectly.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Right so the next day the uncle comes to the,
apartment but he doesn't just take a. Suit he takes her.
Devices he takes her laptop and her phone and her.
Purse see that's Where i'm, like.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
He knew what he was, doing whether he knew that
there was a conflict with homicide versus, suicide and whether
he knew what happened or, not he took it probably
just just to smother. It so the kind of attorney was?
He was he a? Criminal you, KNOW i don't.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
KNOW i DIDN'T i didn't. KNOW i don't know.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
That it's.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
So the apartment manager Called James, schwartzman and again Remember
James schwartzman is the uncle the attorney, uncle and told
him that he could have access to the premises and
relayed the recommendation of a crime scene cleanup. Service so she, says,
okay the police said you can go get a. Suit
also they said THAT i should hire a crime scene Cleanup.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
YEAH i bet Sh sam told his uncle to take
the devices while you're, there can you grab some of
this incriminating?

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Device or the uncle is looking out for a right
that was my first.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Thought right Now i'm, thinking, well Maybe sam's, like can
you grab her?

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Devices so Then schwartzman agrees for the family to pay
the costs of the crime scene, cleanup and she arranged
for the services to be completed before he and his
son even are, right he and his son would be
his cousin arrive at the. Complex so this all happens,
quickly very. QUICKLY i, mean you've got the next, Day
you've got this guy wants access to the. Apartment he

(38:53):
wants to get a, suit he, says a. Suit he
takes the computer to her purse and her, phone and
he also pays for a crime scene cleanup to come
in and wipe everything. Down James schwartzman showed up and
removed not only a sue from the, apartment but Also
ellen's per cell phone and. Laptop so that's WHERE i can.
GO i can maybe hang my hat on the. SUICIDE

(39:16):
i can, think you, know stabbing yourself seems like a
really really very, difficult, difficult difficult and, long.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
And she didn't have such a history of mental struggles
to be able to like justify, like, oh, yeah she
was really out, there you, know like drug use this and.
That so she's numb to, things and then she kind
of is violent towards herself or cutting or anything like.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
That, yeah you're saying there's no. Precursor, NO i guess.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Is i'm a first grade. Teacher and then her choice
of suicide is stabbing HERSELF i know many, times and
then cutting her head and stabbing her neck and all that.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
STUFF i. Know but you know, what the majority of
the stab wounds are very, superficial not, deep not. Deep
and WHAT i learned was a lot of, people if
they not a lot of people choose stabbing for, suicide
let's be clear on. That but if they, do there
are some cases of. It there are a lot of

(40:12):
times it's. Superficial where there's superficial because they're called, hesitation,
right because it's you're working yourself up to.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
It it's hard to actually fully stab yourself AND i imagine, so,
right so it's.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Like you're you're, trying and you're kind of seeing and
then SO i think it's out. THERE i think it's
difficult to grasp. That BUT i don't think it's.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Impossible, no it's it's been done. Before and also already
laying did that already Laying oh, yeah. Yeah he. STABBING
i think on two different occasions he stabbed. Himself, wow didn't.
Succeed but he also had high and that's What i'm.
Getting he had a lot of, cocaine, used drug, use very,
extreme a lot of adrenaline to be able to do

(41:02):
such a. Thing she's the first grade. TEACHER i know
that comes with, stress but maybe not not to this.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Level you. Know ALL i can think is that she
was really really, spiraling and she was on medication and
you've got and she probably they, said she went from
like this, happy go, lucky like never had any, anxiety
to all of a, sudden she's closed. Off she's not
sharing things with, friends and she has all this anxiety
about her. Job and maybe it was more than her.
Job maybe there was a lot more things going on

(41:29):
that she was just not. Verbalizing So january twenty, eighth twenty,
eleven the autopsy findings are that Doctor osborne classified the
death as a, homicide which obviously contradicts with what the
police department rolled, it which was a. Suicide his findings
from the autopsy On january twenty seventh provide critical details
about the cause of death and the nature of the.

(41:50):
Injury Sustain there were multiple stab. Wounds ellen had numerous
stab wounds to the, chess, abdomen and back of the.
Neck the stab wounds affected vital areas including the aortic,
arch left, lung and cervical. Spine this indicates severe trauma
to essential organs and. Structures the presence this is also.
Important they're also found in the autopsy that there was

(42:12):
the presence of multiple bruises at different stages of, healing
which would suggest a pattern of physical altercations or abuse
occurring over.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Time and where were the bruises all?

Speaker 1 (42:25):
OVER i think she had eleven different bruises on, arms.
Legs oh.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Wow so then.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Again you can take from it what you. Want but
maybe a lot of the stress didn't have so much
to do with workplace, workplace but maybe there was abuse at.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Home you know what the.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Boyfriend if.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
This is a case where you, think oh, wow maybe
it was, murder but then had he been arresting, convicted
we probably do be doing a podcast on there's not enough.
EVIDENCE i, know.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
AND i thought about THAT i, thought if they ruled
it a homicide and they arrested him and he went to,
Trial i'd be sitting right here saying the same thing
that he probably did. It BUT i don't know IF
i would convict him IF i were on that, jury
because there's reasonable.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Doubt what had they done a proper investigation OR i
shouldn't say, proper more thorough with her. DEVICES i don't
know what else there, was what eyewitness testimony or ear,
witness you, know what people can hear nearby all that
maybe there'd be more evidence one way or, another.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
And maybe there should have. BEEN i, MEAN i don't
know that they ever gave him a lie detector. Test
AND i mean. THAT i know you can say whatever
you want about lie detector, tests but every police force uses,
them THE cia and THE.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Fbi for indictments and all kinds of.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Things i'm, saying if he had been given a lie
detector test about his story and the latch and all
that he, passed then that's something that's. Something but if
there was deceit, noted that's something that's another route to.
Go and they they didn't do.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
That ALTHOUGH i just watched a video and was reading
up on a man who was convicted of killing his
wife even though he. Hadn't he was released twenty five years.
Later he passed two light detector tests during the. Investigation did?
Matter they still arrested him and convicted.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
Him, yeah, Wrongfully that does. Help it does. Happen, then
The commonwealth Of pennsylvania issued a search, warrant and the
items they searched and seize are listed. Below it was assorted,
knives the blood, samples a serrated knife with the black,
handle a bloody hand towel found in the. Kitchen other
potential evidence items related to the crime. Scene assorted, clothing
a diamond ring she didn't, wear her ring, fingerprints and

(44:33):
a rubber made. Container and also when they found this
IS i don't know what to make of, this but
when they found her, body when she was slumped down
and they found her and she was, deceased she had
a white towel in one of her hands that didn't
have any blood on. It it was pretty. Pristine SO
i don't know what to make of that other than,
maybe like if she did commit, suicide then maybe on

(44:56):
the like she's losing her life and she slumps, down
maybe she grabs it off the ca she's holding on to.
IT i don't.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
KNOW i have no idea if this was a. Murder
If sam was, like holy, crap that was easier THAN i,
Thought like twenty four hours she was it was. Suicide
they don't, investigate AND i get to clean the, apartment
and they even told me who to.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Call you, Know here's here's where WHEN i think AND
i try TO i try to visualize what. HAPPENED i
try to visualize it as a. Murder first of, all
if he did murder, her it wasn't a planned. Murder,
NO i mean he would have just broken up with.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Her, no that's not. True WELL i was saying all
people would break up instead of murdering their.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Space, No i'm saying it wasn't. Planned it's not. PREMEDITATED i,
mean this guy isn't like someone that's going TO i.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Would have guessed that it just built, up maybe in
a short period of, time and then it was an
explosion and then.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Bam, Right i'm saying he didn't plan. It if he
did murder, her it's because something happened in that. Apartment
words were, exchanged it ramped. Up, really there was some
heat of the.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Moment i't know what you said about breaking.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Up i'm, saying this guy is engaged to. Her he's
not going to plan to murder. Her i'm, saying if
he doesn't want to be with her, anymore he would
just break up with. Her he's not going to murder
her to get out of the. Relationship lots That, No,
no but they do that because they're. Married they don't
want to pay child, support and they don't want to

(46:24):
lose custody of their. Kids these, guys they don't have any.
Connection these are that's.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
All he doesn't have a history of any, crime, right, right.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Or.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Violence if we're going to make it that he murdered,
her it has to be a heat of the. Moment something.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
HAPPENED i would agree with.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
That she came home from, work she's, spiraling maybe she's acting.
Crazy he's telling her to calm. Down something, happens and
he grabs a knife and attacks. Her my question, is,
though when someone murders someone with a knife and the
heat of the, moment they don't leave superficial, wounds, RIGHT i,

(47:01):
MEAN i would think that they're not just they're not
just you, know testing and like doing little you, know
like millimeter little wounds to the back of her. NECK i,
mean if he is in the heat of the moment
and he blitz attacks, her that he's going to plunge
a knife into, her not mess.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Around R it's getting all the way, through.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Right i'm just saying he's not going to be, like oh,
here let me just do like some little tiny baby
stab baby, stabs and then, oh Now i'm going to
stab you for. Real LIKE i DON'T i don't picture that.
HAPPENING i don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Everything you say is true and, understandable and it just
leaves more. QUESTIONS i, know all, RIGHT i need, answers not.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Questions, okay let's go back to because this is also.
Interesting and also it goes back to the computer. Searches
like we talked about. Before they initially said that there
wasn't any kind of anything that they found on the
computer with A i assume just with this police investigation
was a basic cursory review of her, devices, right probably.

(48:04):
Best then the uncle comes in the apartment under the
pretense of getting a, suit but he takes her laptop
and her.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Phone did he take a.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
SUIT i don't even know if he took a. SUIT
i don't Know so then in twenty, nineteen the case
gets reopened and The Pennsylvania Attorney general's office claimed that
there were web searches found on her computer for, quote
methods of committing, suicide quick, death and, depression that they

(48:33):
had been found On ellen's. Computer, now, again.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Does he have access to a. Computer, well the uncle
took the, COMPUTER i, know BUT i meant prior to the,
death because he. Could you, Know i'm just, thinking like a,
CRIMINAL i could go in there and.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Search so you're saying. Suicide, wait you're saying who the fiance.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Like If sam used her computer to make those. Searches
i'm just trying to make sense of. This ring cases
that are cut and, Dry that's what we need to talk.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
About some sources indicate the searches occurred In december, eighteenth twenty,
ten for suffocation and suicide, methods and On january, tenth twenty,
eleven for quick. Death she also reportedly browsed the website
about painless.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Suicide, well if you go off of, that then why
wouldn't it be a?

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Suicide because they're saying it's, controversial they're saying that there's a,
dispute there is a fundamental dispute over the computer. Evidence
the use of this evidence to support the suicide ruling is.
Controversial this is a computer evidence due to the chain
of custody issues at conflicting, Reports you've got one side, saying,

(49:38):
hey she said she was searching for suicide. Before and
you know what it means a chain of. Custody the
chain of custody is broken when the uncle comes and takes.
It that's when the chain of.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Custody, yeah but why can they know when the searches were?

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Made, well that's the problem is that apparently you can
manipulate the searches as. Well.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Well then then go back to WHAT i just, said
he probably could have planted those searches for. Suicide, OKAY i.
KNOW i suggest everyone that everyone that's having a breakdown
of their relationship should probably look in their search. History
like IF i look at my search issue right now
and it's like suicide and all this, Stuff i'm gonna

(50:19):
know what you're up.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
To, yes but, again that would be, premeditated AND i
SEE i would HAVE I coulner, Right i'm just saying
twenty year olds that are engaged, there it's not pre.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
MESSAGE i don't, know it's very. Confusing i'm more frustrating
ending this podcast THAN i was starting.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
It So march of twenty, eleven they changed the manner
of death. Again the police department demanded a face to
face meeting About ellen's case with Doctor. Osborne remember he
was the original medical examiner that rolled it a homicide

(50:57):
and his, colleagues which was also attended by a high
ranking representative from The Philadelphia District attorney's. Office following the
meeting with, investigators Doctor osborne made an unprecedented decision to
change his original. Ruling he reversed his earlier classification of
the death as a homicide and concluded That ellen's death

(51:18):
was actually a. Suicide Doctor osborne has stated that no
notes were taken and there is no recording of this important.
Meeting so what happened is the police ruled a, suicide
the medical examiner does the autopsy and rules it a.
Homicide now you've got conflicting, reports and you've got these
parents that are pissed, off, Right so now the police
department or the city has a. Problem so then there's a,

(51:40):
meeting and then after the, meeting the medical examiner, says oh,
okay and he rules it a. Suicide there's not much
conviction over, there and there's no notes taken and no
records of what happened in this. Meeting and when they
deposed everyone and asked them about what happened in the,
meeting every single person, SAID i don't recall or or

(52:00):
something like. That so In march of twenty, Eleven ellen's
death certificate was quietly updated from homicide to. Suicide ellen's,
Parents josh And Sandra, greenberg were astounded by the sudden.
Change it made no sense to them That ellen would
have inflicted twenty stab wounds to, herself.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
And some of the wounds were on the.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Back, right it's on the back of the, neck but
it's up, high so again.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Reachable it's, reachable so that's but why would you do
that to the back of your?

Speaker 1 (52:32):
NECK i don't, know but you know, what it's, reachable
but it's also there were also very there were a
few that are again like those hesitation.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
Type of and that there's no defensive wounds of any.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Kind, oh that is a good. Question no defensive, Wounds
and that was another. Question that was another reason that
initially the police ruled it a, suicide because, again you
would think that if it was a blitz attack where
they were just having some heated moment and he grabs
a knife and he goes or hear that she would
put her hands, up that she would fight, back that

(53:04):
she would put her arms, up and there were no defensive.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Retoun anything on. Him, right he didn't have anything on.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Him, No, also there was only HER dna found on
the knife that they removed from her. Chest now again.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
That doesn't mean he didn't do. It it just means he
didn't HAVE dna on.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
It there's just there's HIS dna wasn't found on. IT
i don't. Know he could have wiped the knife or
he could have just not LEFT. Dna but, again.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
All, right all this, said what do you think? It
what do you think it?

Speaker 1 (53:34):
IS i don't. KNOW i, MEAN i don't. Know that's the.
Question so was it a suicide or a. Homicide let's
just go through some things that points to. Suicide it's
shallow hesitation, stabs no defensive wounds on her, hands the
door was, latched there's new snow on the, balcony no,
footprints so that means that there's no other. Perpetrator no
one else was in the. Apartment she's had mental health.

(53:56):
Issues she was taking new. Medications she went to three
visits with us, kiatrist and it was well known that
her demeanor had changed and that her outlook on life had,
changed and that she was pretty. Depressed she was spiraling
at school that. Day her colleague said that she was acting,
abnormal that she was, spiraling she was having a hard,
time she was, happy she was leaving school. Early the

(54:19):
door was locked from the. Inside this is based On
sam's statement and ALSO i guess the visual that they
saw that the lock was, broken but AGAIN i don't,
know could that be. Manipulated, yeah the apartment was. Undisturbed
there's no signs of a, struggle so again you would
think that if he attacked her that there would be
things knocked, over something. Broken no defensive, wounds there's no

(54:43):
defensive wind marks on. Him they found A google search
on her computer for quick suicide and painless, suicide but
again that's debatable because we don't know exactly when that.
Was because the chain of custody was broken when the
uncle took the. Laptop the knife showed Only ELLEN'S. DNA
sam state seen and was, cooperative And ellen's last digital

(55:03):
footprint was activity on her computer at four forty, five
which was the same time That sam left for THE
gem and the neighbors did not hear any type of
fight or. Disturbance so that's a. Lot, yeah that's pointing
to a. Suicide evidence that points to a. Homicide there
is a lack of hemorrhaging on the spinal column. Injuries
this is interesting and this is complex Because i'm not

(55:25):
a MEDICAL i don't know anything about any medical type
of terms or. Anything but there is there was a
wound that was hit the spinal cord sheath in the
back of her.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Neck which means What which.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Means that one of the medical examiners was of the
opinion that because there was no hemorrhaging around that cut
into the spinal, cord that that cut occurred after. Death
that's another that's another.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
That's another thing to confuse.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
It that's another confusing thing to look at that points
towards a. Homicide Lindsay, emory a pathologist who's also certified in,
neuropathology conducted one Of ellen's examinations and testified saying that
a lack of hemorrhage means no, Pulse so that means
that there's the possibility that that could have been struck after,
death which obviously means it wasn't suicide because she can't

(56:18):
stab herself if she's already.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Deceased, no you, know it reminds me of That utah
case where it was it wasn't a murder, suicide it
was a suicide. Murder what is That this lady went
to shoot herself there in a car and she pointed
the gun in her. HEAD i don't mean to laugh
at her, death, obviously but she points the gun at her,
head shoots. Herself the bullet goes through her, head and

(56:41):
then hit the, passenger her, husband and killed.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Him, oh but she didn't mean to kill. Him, no
she didn't want to kill. Him, No and she died
and he.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Died she died.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
First, yeah so, suicide she killed. Him so suicide murder
as opposed to murder. Suicide, Okay so what you're, saying.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
So strange things can, Happen strange things can be very.
Rare in that, case there was evidence to prove the
order of. Killing. Right in this, case it's just really,
confusing And i'm probably more frustrating now that you brought
up this case THAN i was, yesterday not knowing about.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
This, case all, right SO i made bowl of points
of just what led me to believe. Suicide now we're
talking about homicide. Homicide so there's the pathologists who said
that it could the spinal, cord the lack of lack of,
hemorrhaging twenty knife. Wounds also there is String there was
possibly strangulation marks on her. Neck Ellen greenberg's twenty eleven

(57:38):
autopsy noted a bruising to her, neck which some forensic
experts have interpreted as evidence of. Strangulation this has been
a key factor in the long running controversy over whether
her death was a homicide or. SUICIDE i don't, know,
THOUGH i feel as if it was an actual strangulation
first that there would be noticeable, marks also evidence of

(57:59):
points to homicide or the bruises and varying stages of,
healing which would suggest that he was violent or abusive with. Her,
previously no one was With sam when he broke the door. Down,
okay this is, interesting and this was a controversy that
came up originally when the medical examiner first concluded or

(58:22):
the police concluded that it was a. Suicide it's because
they were under the assumption that When sam came back
to the apartment and busted the door down and broke
the latch from the, inside that the security guard was with.
HIM i don't know where that story came, from but
they were under that, assumption and the medical examiner was
under that. Assumption so when he ruled it a, suicide

(58:47):
he considered that there was. Right so then he the medical,
examiner then learns later that that wasn't. True that the
security guard or the, doorman whatever you want to call, him,
ever actually left his. Post so When sam broke the door,
down he was. Alone there was no witness as.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
To that's, odd that it's, odd but a medical examiner
taking in like evidence like, That LIKE i when his
testimony and, STUFF i know WHAT i, thought you're a medical,
EXAMINER i think look at them, MEDICALLY i.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Know but you know WHAT i took away from, that
it was the totality of the. Circumstances it was it
was all these things that he found during the. Autopsy
but then also also thinking the door was latched from the,
inside that the police already ruled it a you, know a,
suicide that he thought That sam was accompanied by the door,
man and that the last.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Was you AND i could do all. THAT i thought
this guy's supposed to have training to look and learn
about wounds and stab wounds and you, know hemagering and
all that.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Stuff, also the strange nine one one call kind of
leads to the thought that it could possibly be. Homicide
the fact that he doesn't notice the knife in her
heart when he first comes into when he calls nine one,
one he doesn't mention it until like halfway through the.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Call reluctant to DO.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Cpr it just doesn't sound like he doesn't sound like a.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Grieving the clean rag in her hands kind of seems to,
random you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Know, also someone, SAID i don't know that when people
when someone commits suicide and it is a stabbing, suicide
that normally they lift their shirt, up of their clothing.
Up her stab was through her. Sweater that's. Interesting, yeah
so that's something.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Else but then is there a normal routine for suicide by?
Stabbing there's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Not all you can do is look back at you
and you, know it reminds me of Even Amanda knox's,
case where the prosecutor was so hell bent on the
fact that the body was covered that it must have
been a, woman.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Because you, know, women women do.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
That men cover the. Body so, again it's not a proven,
science BUT i think it's just something, something it's something
to think about. That AND i don't, Know i'm trying
to picture myself like trying to stab. MYSELF i don't.
Know MAYBE i probably would lift my shirt. UP i don't,
KNOW i don't. KNOW i don't. KNOW i don't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
KNOW i know you wouldn't lift my shirt. Up, no
you would go right through my favorite shirt if he had.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
To and then also again when we're talking about, homicide
the possibility of a post mortem cut into the spinal,
cord which would have occurred after death because there was no.
HEMORRHAGING a security guard said he had not been there
when the fiance forced opened the, door and despite two
relatives claims that they'd been on the phone With goldberg
when he forced opened the, door AS cnn analysis of

(01:01:36):
phone records and other evidence seemed to contradict that. Claim
SO i guess there were relatives that claim to have
been on the phone with him when he broke the door,
down and then forensically it seemed that that Didn't that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Doesn't mean anything to me even if they, were because
if he's gonna fake. It he could fake that, too
but you know. That so the wounds on the back
of the neck were the ones that were not.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Heymatry, no, well just there's several wounds on the, back
but it was the back of the. Neck, yeah but
there was one that was close to the spinal, cord
and that's the one that wasn't.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Hemorrhaging hear me, Out, okay when someone, dies, yeah is
it like as soon as their heart stops, beating that's
the moment they won't hemorrhage or is There because it's
on the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
It's on the back of the neck and she's leaned
up against the, CABINET i would think she. DIED i
mean the position that she's. In that means someone she
asks to die in that position and then get, stabbed
like they move her head away from the, walls stab
and then put it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
BACK i don't.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Know it just seems a little out of.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Order, OH i see what you're. Saying you're saying because
it was a. If if we're if we're taking it
as a post mortem, stab, right then she's already on
the ground and she's already slumped over.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
And, yeah and you're sitting the back of her neck's probably,
covered or she's up against the, wall or it's not easily. Accessible,
YEAH i don't. Know just more, question no. Answers So ellen's.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Parents continued to fight against the suicide ruling to this very.
Day So ellen's, Parents josh And, sandy filed two civil,
lawsuits one in twenty nineteen against The Philadelphia Medical Examiner's
office and Doctor osborne to change the ruling on their
daughter's death, certificate and then another suit in twenty twenty
two against The city Of, philadelphia Former Chief Medical Examiner Sam,

(01:03:24):
gulino and others, involved alleging that the investigation was mishandled
and covered up by the city. Officials In february of
twenty twenty, five The greenberg celebrated a major legal victory
when the city settled both suits and The Medical examiner's
office agreed to reopen its investigation Into greenberg's cause of.
Death the ruling came shortly after Doctor osborne signed an

(01:03:46):
affidavit stating That ellen's death should be classified as something
other than. Suicide according TO Nbc, philadelphia he reportedly made
the decision after reviewing new information in the case and
consulting with a pediatric. Pathologist the settlement also included an
undisclosed amount of. Money The greenbergs went back to court

(01:04:07):
In september of twenty twenty. Five the case returned to
court last month as attorneys for her family press for
answers about delays and the independent autopsy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Review so that was part.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
Of the, settlement was that someone else was going to
do an independent. Autopsy despite the settlement earlier this, year
The greenberg's claim they have received no updates or news
Regardings ellen's. Case the next hearing on the matter is
scheduled For october, fourteenth which is this month next. Week,
yeah and they're supposed to have this independent autopsy done

(01:04:36):
prior To october. Fourteenth so we will continue to follow this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Case if we solved another, crime we.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Will follow this case and see what happens and see
if this. Crime this is one of those crimes, where
even like you said, earlier even if they it's ruled
a homicide and they're going to go back and, reinvestigate.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
Now there's just enough evidence to be.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
Confused it's enough evidence on both s to confuse. You it's,
RIGHT i don't, KNOW i lean towards. Suicide you know what,
THOUGH i was thinking about this, Guy. Sam, Yeah so
first they rule it a suicide and he's probably, like,
yes then at the, funeral if you did it, right

(01:05:19):
then at the funeral is when the media outlets report
that it's been changed to a homicide or not changed
with the medical examiner said it was a. Homicide so
that guy's probably like pissing his pants right if he did, It,
no it doesn't matter if he did it or not
they ruled. It if they rule it a, homicide it's it's.
HIM i, mean he's the only perpetrator they're going to come.
After then they change it back to a, suicide so

(01:05:41):
he's probably, Like, Okay i'm in the clear. Again and
now they're they're you, know ruling on whether they're going
to investigate it again or. NOT i, mean this guy
probably wakes up every day and as he's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Just a person of interest today or victim, today which is?

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
It and if he was the, perpetrator than. GOOD i,
mean he should be living in a state of perpetual
fear and. Hell but if he didn't do, it that
is a crappy way to live, life not knowing whether
they're going to come after. You or. Not so at
the end of the, day we don't know what's going to.
Happen we'll see what happens on this court date In october.
Fourteenth and, again thank you so much guys for listening

(01:06:20):
To lee La. Brunette we appreciate.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
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