Legally Brunette: The Amanda Knox Interview

Emily and Shane are sitting down with Amanda Knox to discuss the realities of wrongful convictions, false confessions and media scrutiny.

They dive into the new Hulu series “The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox” and her partnership with Monica Lewinsky for this project.

Plus, what does Amanda think about the prosecutor who incriminated her? Who would she like an apology from the most? Does she still feel the weight of this crime today?

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I
will be your hostess today Emily Simpson with my co
host Jane And I have to say, I am so,
so super excited because I am sitting here next to
Amanda Knox, and I have to tell you, I don't
get starstruck very often, like at all. I've been on
reality TV for years and years, but sitting across from

(00:25):
you is such a full circle moment. First of all, well,
I graduated from law school in two thousand and five,
and then everything that happened with you is in two
thousand and seven, so well, you were newly aware I
was an attorney, so I was following it. And then
I'd say, maybe, I don't know how long ago, maybe
like six or seven years ago, I went to LA
and I saw you speak.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Might have been it might have been about ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, I'm not sure with context, I don't remember exactly,
but it was for mcl credit and you were speaking
somewhere in LA and I went and I just I
found you so compelling and interesting and I didn't get
the opportunity to meet you. And this was prior to
doing a podcast, and all these things. So having you
sitting next to me, I feel like it's just like this,

(01:09):
like it was meant to be.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Like it's a full circle moment. I wish to get you.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
I don't have to do any episodes, all right, Well,
let's just do a little background on you for our
viewers or for our listeners. Amanda Knox is an American author, journalist,
and public speaker who was wrongfully convicted of murdering her
roommate Meredith Kircher while studying abroad in Italy back in
two thousand and seven. Amanda spent nearly four years in

(01:39):
prison before Italy's highest court exonerated her back in twenty fifteen.
Since her release, Amanda has become an advocate for criminal
justice reform and media ethics. Most recently, and this is important, guys,
because if you haven't watched this yet, Amanda teamed up
with Monica Lewinsky to produce Hulu's The Twisted Tale of
Amanda Knox. And I will have to tell you I've

(02:00):
watched all of it except for the finale episode. It
is amazing, Like it is truly so well done.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Because I have watched.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
We were talking about prior to recording this but we
were having a conversation where I said, I've watched every
documentary about you that's out there, and I feel like
I get pieces here and there, and I learn a
little bit more when I watch this documentary or I'll
see something else and I'm like, oh, I didn't know that,
and I learned a bit a little bit more. But
actually watching this Hulu series, I feel like I finally

(02:33):
have a full picture of everything that happened, of everything
you went through. I have a deeper understanding of Raphael
and who he is, and his family and how they
were affected, and those are all the things that don't
show up in a documentary.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
So it's truly truly was it then, so that people
trying to put it together, well, you were actually in it?

Speaker 4 (02:58):
I think yeah. I think that's one aspect to it.
And it's something that Monica and I are really trying
to push the Hollywood industry to to really embrace, is
the idea that like the source can be a create,
like a can can bring creative input. It's not just
there to like authenticate everything, but really to have a
creative voice. And that's something you know that I'm eternally

(03:23):
grateful to everyone we worked with on this show that
they actually treated me like a legitimate creative partner. And
it's true, like there's the show does something that a
documentary is not going to do, because a documentary is
interested in you know, journalistic you know, investigation into a case,
and so they're they're focused on the case and there

(03:45):
it's less about the humanity of the people who happen
to be the subject of those facts. And so what
the Hulu series attempts to do is it's it's it's
going to ping all those all those true crime fans
out there who are like interested in like the intricacies
of the case, like it's still there.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Oh, it's fair, it's fairly.

Speaker 4 (04:06):
But on top of that, there is like human stories
that you wouldn't otherwise get, like that relationship that I
developed with my prosecutor, which has nothing to technically to
do with the case. It's it's a personal story to me, Like,
as somebody who has gone through this terrible experience, how

(04:27):
do I make sense of it? And what do I
do about it? Once I finally have my freedom and
my agency back that was stolen from me, and so
what what do I do with it? When it's returned
to me. And then you know, there are other aspects
of it, Like you mentioned raphae La. One of this
one of my things that was really important to me
in depicting this show is like when raphae La and

(04:48):
I met, Like this was five days before the crime occurred,
so like we were at the very beginning of like
what was going to be what you know, what you
see in the the romance movies of like the blossoming
of this like beautiful young love relationship. And then we
go through this nightmare together and what that does to

(05:11):
two young people who care about each other, Like it
tears it us apart, it puts us back together, but
in a completely new way and with all of our
broken pieces. And so I'm really excited you'll. I can't
wait for you to see the final episode.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's eight parts.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
It's eight parts. And I co wrote the final episode
with the creator and showrunner kJ Steinberg, who I have
to shout out, like if no one in like if
no one's heard of kJ Steinberg, Like I hope everyone
recognizes her after this because she was incredible. She I mean,

(05:46):
you followed the story, like you know how convoluted it
is and how like so many twists and turns, and
like you know, crazy things come up, and she had
to like really sift through all of that and make
sense of it and turn it into something that, again
the true crime fanatics can enjoy, but also just anyone
who's a human being could relate to.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, for me, it's the perfect amount of both, because
I'll tell you I'm a true crime fanatic. My husband
will tell you, I mean is acat I turns out?
I mean, I mean anytime I do watch what Happens
Live or anything, They're like, tell us what reality shows
you watch.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
And I'm like, I don't I watch? I mean I watch.
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
I watch Forensic Files that night to go to bed,
like this is what I watch. So for me, your
series was so good because it was it is true crime.
I mean, you follow the story from the beginning to
the end, with the court case, with everything going on,
so you do satisfy that need. But then when I
watch a documentary, I'm always left thinking, well, what happened?

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Do they still talk?

Speaker 1 (06:52):
How what's her? What does her mom think about all
of this? I was always wondering about your mom.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
Was Monica's Like, Like when Monica first reached out to
me to do this project. Like her big thing was, like,
what we think of when we think of a shamed
person that's in the public imagination, is we only think
of that one person. We think of them as like
like this isolated incident, and no, like they're a human
being who belongs to people, and the bad stuff that

(07:18):
happens to them also happens to everyone that they love
who's trying to Like.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
You're right, when you see the news or documentary what
you just see someone in shackles, for lack of better words,
and you just kind of think it's just them, it's
just them that that's on the stand, right, But really
it's everything else. Everyone around them is shaty.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
And that's why I brought up her mom, because I think,
when I watch your series, I have children, So I'm
not even relating to you as much as I'm relating
to your mother. Yeah, And that's why I feel so
deeply connected to her. That's why I asked her, not
your mom, but I asked how she was. I love
to I felt such a connection to your mother because

(08:02):
I thought I have a daughter, she's twelve, and I thought,
if my daughter is studying abroad, I would do this.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
I would be on a plane, I would I would
be there. I would be.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Saying all the same things that she's saying and annoying
you the same ways that she annoyed you. I would
be doing all of those things. And I felt I
could feel her heart, Like how how horrible that was
for her to go through that.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, you know that's something that I think people underestimate
in this story, is like even just how much of
the story is my mom's story? Right, Like, Okay, I
was a twenty year old kid, a naive, you know,
something really bad happened to me when I'm studying abroad.
But like my mom was only forty five when this happened,
and she also was in a way like this was

(08:44):
a growing up experience for my mom as well, Like
talk about like the worst thing that you could possibly think,
like like two young girls go to study abroad and
only one of them survives, and the one of them
that survives is in prisonly facing the rest of her
life in the visa so far away, and like what
do you do? And like as a mom, as a mom,

(09:06):
like I'm a mom, now I know that what my
mom went through was worse than what I went through.
She would have traded places with me in prison in
a second, but she couldn't. She had to leave me
there every single time she went to visit me, and
there was only so much that she could do. She
was in so many ways like the world was on
her shoulders and she had to figure it out. But

(09:26):
also there was only so much she could do, and
so she was helpless and juggling that feeling and then
also trying to be a mom to her other daughter,
who is like trying to navigate. Like this whole thing
is like such a human story with so many different elements,
and I'm so glad that, like again, my creative partners
in this project really appreciated and valued and pushed to

(09:47):
have that be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
How did you and Monica get connected? So I did
say that she called you, So did that come out
of the blue? Had you never met her before?

Speaker 3 (10:03):
And all, oh no, no, no, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
I've known her since twenty seventeen. So the documentary about
my case on Netflix came out in twenty sixteen, and
as a result of that, it was actually that documentary
was the sort of shifted the conversation or at least
public perception around me a little bit, so that people
started to think, oh, maybe, just maybe this girl is

(10:29):
innocent and has like a story to tell of her own.
And so I was invited to give a public talk
for the first time, and I was I accepted, but
I was really really scared.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Now was this in Italy?

Speaker 4 (10:42):
No, it was not in Italy. This was in Seattle,
And it was funny. It was for this like conference
where the theme of the conference was controversy, and so
the person invited a lot of people who had controversies
around them and so invited me. I was the low
controversy kids in Seattle. But also Monica Winsky was invited

(11:05):
among a number of other people. And when I heard
that she was going to be there, I asked the
organizer if they could put me in touch, because, you know,
after coming out of prison, it's not like I just
got my life back. You know, I'm still you know,
to this day, I'm still the girl accused of murder.
And I carry the stigma of that accusation everywhere I

(11:27):
go because I did not exist in the public imagination
until I was existing in the most horrible way possible.
Like all people know me, and also like it's the
it's very likely going to only be the only thing
anybody knows me for, because like, how could I possibly
accomplish anything in this world that could define me more

(11:49):
than this thing that was global and for you know,
nearly a decade defined me and defined my life that
it was something I had nothing to do with. So like,
I was just overwhelmed by this feeling, and especially because
you know, even after I got home, people were still
calling me a psychopath who got away with murder. People
were telling me to shut up and disappear, and like

(12:12):
there was this constant sort of energy towards me of like, well,
you know, you're not the true victim because your roommate
was the one who was murdered, so you should just
shut up and be grateful that you're alive. And and
like just like this really like cruel energy toward me
that was certainly like wanting to just put me down.

(12:32):
And you know, something my husband has been you know,
to this day, this is something I deal with. My
husband really pushes back and goes well until we change
every single person's mind in the entire world, until there's
anyone on this planet who thinks you might have had
something to do with your roommate's murder. You have every
right to like tell your story again and again and

(12:55):
again until it gets into everyone's thick skulls that you
had nothing to do with it. You didn't ask for
this right.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
That's a really smart perspective.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
You're always on the defense.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
I'm always on the defense, and I am trying to
tell a bigger story now because like, coming out of
this experience, I didn't know anything about the criminal justice system.
I didn't go to law school. I was going to
school for creative writing. Like I was the opposite of
a true crime nerd. And I came out and was
became aware of a whole world of people who have

(13:25):
this happened to them that I didn't know. I had
no idea, and I didn't know that the things that
happened to me in Italy are happening here in the
US all the time. I was shocked to discover this,
and so I was feeling like this internal compulsion to
like tell my story because one of the weird things
about my story is that it's almost like a gateway
drug for people to get into like criminal justice, like

(13:48):
awareness and reform is people think, oh, you know, wrongful
convictions happen to other people, but they don't happen to
someone like me. And then I came along, you know,
the college educated white girl from the suburbs of Seattle. Like,
if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone,
and it's everyone's problem. So anyway to get back to
the story of how I met Monica, I was invited

(14:09):
to come speak. I was, you know, finally sort of
getting this feeling like I have a story to tell
and it's very important. It's not even just about me,
but like I had spent my you know, entire adult
life with people not believing me, and you know, putting
everything I say through like the worst possible filter, always
trying to strip me of context, always trying to derive

(14:29):
the worst possible thing that anything I say. And so
I'm terrified to speak to people. I feel like everyone's
just telling me to shut up. And there's like one
person in the world who I can imagine knows what
that's like and has started to push back. Like this
was when Monica was writing the Vanity Fair articles. This

(14:52):
was when Monica was doing her Ted talk. She was
talking about online bullying of public shaming. So I look
to her as like the one exam of somebody who
was finally like taking a stand and like demanding a
space for her voice. And she was like a model
to me. So I reached out to her. She invited
me up to her hotel room. She was very nice,

(15:14):
she gave me all this like great advice, and then
we stayed in contact and we always check in with
each other. And then she did Impeachment where she executive
produced Impeachment, the story of her experience, and she had
learned a lot from doing that, and she was continuing
to develop things in Hollywood and she wanted to basically

(15:35):
she wanted to like pave the path for another person
to come behind her. And that was me.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, so well that's amazing. So you get a call
from her and she's like, let's produce a show.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
Yeah, well, she said, would you be interested? Like, I've
done this thing, and you know, here's here was what
my experience was, like, here's what I hope your experience
would be like. And I was like, yeah, you know,
people have been asking me for years to do that
kind of thing, and I always resisted one because back

(16:07):
when people were asking me. A lot of times they
just wanted to tell the horrible story of what happened
to me, and it was just limited to that, and
I was like, you know what, I'm not interested in
telling a story about the horrible thing that just happened
to me. But by this point I had already reached
out to my prosecutor, and so I knew that my

(16:27):
story wasn't just a bad thing that happened to me.
It was what I was doing about it, and that
I felt really felt like my story, it wasn't just
someone else's story. It was like there was something that.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Got me where you finally had control.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
Well, yeah, and where I had taken control, right, and
when I recognized what I had control over, and like
that journey of trying to figure out what it means
to be free, Like, you know, I had my freedom
stolen from me, but even after I was like freed,
I wasn't free. And I feel like there's this universal
human experience of like feeling trapped in your own life

(17:05):
and trying to make sense of it and trying to
recognize how to be an effective agent in your own
life and to accomplish what you want to accomplish and
define yourself on your own terms. I feel like that
is a very universal thing. But that has been like
the story of my life. My entire adult life has
been pushing back against false narratives and really trying to

(17:26):
find myself on my own terms. And this is how
I did it. And that felt like a story I
was very proud to tell. And so when I explain
that to Monica, she was like, oh my god, oh
my god, Oh my god. Yeah. And then we told
all of the you know, producers, and they're like, oh
my god, oh my god, my god. Right, and everyone
was like, oh my god, my god. And now here
we are, so.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Can we can I ask you a question about your prosecutor? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Now, the last episode before the finale, I I the
way it ended to me was so like my heart.
I had like heart palpitations. You're at home and you're
finding out this is the Italian Supreme Court, whether they're
going to kick it back to a lower court or
whether they're gonna definitively Yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
So, just for those who don't know, in the Italian
legal system, the way that it works is both prosecutors
and defense attorneys can appeal verdicts, because no verdict is
definitive until the Supreme Court validates it. So what that
meant for my case is that I went through Let's see,

(18:32):
how many trials did I do. I had one trial
where I was found guilty. Then I had another trial
where I was found innocent, and then I had another
trial where I was found guilty, and then I had
another trial where I was found innocent. So I had
like all of these different trials because it just kept
pingponging through the courts. And so I was in prison
for four years, on trial for eight and it was

(18:55):
in this what we depict in this show is this
like limbo space where like, yeah, okay, I'm home, I'm free,
but I'm facing extradition like I you know I do.
I'm not able to live my life because I'm still
like with the legal acts hanging over my head. So
we get the final verdict. I'm acquitted, you know, definitively,
no one's ever going to try to put me in

(19:16):
prison for murder again. But the verdict left open the
possibility that I might have been home when the crime occurred.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
See, I never knew that, and I don't know.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
I feel like maybe in any documentary or i'd ever
watched about you or anything.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
I never learned that. I don't know if I just
didn't see it or.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
I mean, it's like a nuanced thing that's in the
court document, Like you have to read one hundred page
court document to appreciate that. But like that was what
my attorneys called a contentina, which means it's a little contentment.
So it was like the courts were trying to say, Okay,
the prosecution is really really wrong. Amanda's innocent, she didn't

(19:59):
do this crime. But you know, the police weren't crazy
to think that she was there because maybe she was.
And it's like, what do you mean maybe I was there? Yeah,
I was just there and my friend was getting murdered
and I was about it.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 4 (20:15):
And like, and it left open this possibility that like
I'm in some way like connected to this, and I'm
I'm withholding the truth from the family of you know,
Meredith's family, Like, oh if I'm if I was there,
well I know exactly what happened, why aren't I revealing
the truth? It brands me, if not legal, a liar,

(20:36):
implies it And so I'm left still with like and
it's and it leaves me also in this place of like, well,
you're not totally innocent, right, so you're not. You didn't
get harmed like you you were there, you you know,
And it's just it's had this like really deep difficult
consequences for me.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
In my life, and I can see that on the screen.
She does an incredible job playing.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
Grace van Patten.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
I mean, first of all the Emmys, I can't even
when I watch it.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
It's never even in my mind do I think this
is an actress playing Amanda Knox.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Like she's you.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yes, she she looks like you, but she also has
is she is you like she does?

Speaker 3 (21:18):
It is so it really is.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
And I also didn't know this, but her sister plays
your sister.

Speaker 4 (21:24):
I know, and I didn't know that. It's so great too,
because like the way that they're like physically different is
also the way my sister and I are physically different.
Like my sister is taller and blonder than me, and
so her sister is taller and blonder. It's perfect, such
great casting. My sister has been watching the show and
like live texting me every time she's watching it, and
she was just like Oh my god, Anna van Patten.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Like, how did she know?

Speaker 4 (21:49):
She's got my sister's snark? It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, but I tell you that moment when you're speaking
to Carlo, your attorney, and he's like, Amanda, this is great.
You know, like they can't ever come after you again. However,
you know there's this little thing where they said, you know,
you might have been in the room, but like, don't
worry about that.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
And then in your her face, your face, you're like.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
You're just as as someone watching I can tell that,
like you're you're not okay with that.

Speaker 4 (22:16):
And then that's when everyone's like cheersing and having champagne,
saying it's over right, and I'm like, it's not over right,
It's not right. This is not over for me. Right.
That verdict means that it is not over for me. Now?

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Is that the moment when you decide that you're going
to reach out to him or do you have to
mould it over?

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Think about it and then you come up with that.

Speaker 4 (22:37):
I mean the way that this series, like there's there's
certain things that the series doesn't show because like it's
only eight episodes, Like the actual first time that I
went back to Italy was not to go see my prosecutor.
I went one time before that.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
That's when you give a speech.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah, I gave a public talk for the Italy Innocence Project,
which didn't exist at the time that I was on
trial and everything, but it was around that time. And
again part of this was being within the innocence movement,
Like I was meeting other wrongly convicted people, and I
was asking them questions about like how they were processing

(23:15):
being wrongly convicted and what did they think about their
prosecutors and some you know, I love xonaies and freed
people are some of the most like zen people you
will ever meet. Like they are like, we've had to
live with It's not just PTSD, it's like prolonged trauma.

(23:36):
That's like trauma on top of trauma off top of
trauma for years, and we've had to develop like this
radical ability to either utterly disassociate or just like accept
reality the way it is and just try to make
your life worth living regardless. And what that means is
we tend to have a more humanistic view of people,

(23:57):
and I think we tend to be less focused on
like bitterness and anger and more light and were just
more haunted by like the why of it all, Like
why did this happen to me?

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Why?

Speaker 4 (24:08):
And that if you really really genuinely have that like
deep curiosity in you, it leads you to wonder about
the people who harmed you. And like, for me, at
the very least, like I always assumed not that my
prosecutor or the cops were like bad people, but they
were convincing themselves that they were right. And if they, like,

(24:31):
if they believe that they're good people and they're doing
the right thing, how could they possibly go down this
path and how could they possibly do this harmful thing?
And the one thing that I always heard from people
in the innocence movement was that they never apologized, Like
they never like if you were confront a prosecutor or
a cop with a wrongful conviction, they always deny it.

(24:52):
They always dig in their heels, And so there was
almost no point, Like I was I sort of I
started mentioning this to my friends in the innocence movement
that I was curious and I wanted to reach out
to my prosecutor, because you know, if I'm going to
be curious about this, why don't I just go to
the source. Why don't I just ask him directly? Why
did you look at me when there was clearly the
evidence of who raped and murdered my roommate? Why did

(25:14):
you look at me and think there's my rapist and murderer?
Like what is it? What is it about me? Like?
How is that possible? And so why don't I just
go directly to the source and ask him? And everyone said,
I think everyone was nervous for me. They were like,
we just don't want you to go through yet another

(25:36):
traumatic thing, which is putting yourself out there, really making
yourself vulnerable, and just having this guy like get defensive
and mean to you again, like we don't want you
to just have more harm on top of harm. But
I just I couldn't get it out of my head,
like I felt like I had something to do, something,

(25:57):
not just something to get like I original. Yes, of
course I wanted him to admit that he was wrong
and do all those things, But eventually I figured out
that it wasn't even so much what I needed to
get from him. It was more like what I needed
to give him. I had something to get off of
my chest, and so I went to go do it.

(26:17):
And you'll see in the final episode how that ultimately transpired.
But like I corresponded with him for two years before
before meeting him, Yes, because of the pandemic. So I
don't know when anyone else was doing the pandemic. But
I was just writing letters to my prosecutor.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Now it's interesting that he wrote back because he could have.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
Just yes, he couldn't, to his credit.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Ripped it up and been like Amanda Knox and you know,
but he wrote back.

Speaker 4 (26:43):
He did, and you know, to his credit, and I
think that the show really really attempts to give him
credit where credits due, like to really understand his context,
who he is as a person, what his history is,
but also to acknowledge like he didn't have to go
on this journey with me, he didn't have to respond,
but he did, and you know, we are still in

(27:06):
contact to this day. Now.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
I read that, I read that you do exchange letters,
and do you exchange Christmas cards and things like that.

Speaker 4 (27:14):
Text messages?

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, really, so I would assume that if you're at
that point where you're exchanging text messages. And again I
haven't watched the finale, so I don't know exactly what happens,
but I assume there's a level of understanding or something
that happens during that meeting.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
Yeah, yes, there there is, and it's I mean, it's
great for television because it's full of conflict in the
sense that it's like it's not just a Kumbaya fest, right,
Like there is conflict, and there's to this day like
unresolved conflict. But there's also again like there's this there's

(27:52):
something that happens outside of the courtroom, which is this
like need, this universal human need for connection, for understanding.
And the thing that like you'll see depicted so which
so well by by Grace and Francisco a Quadrali, is

(28:13):
that desire to be understood one person to another, not
just me to him, but him to him to me.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Did you see him differently after meeting in person? Were
you able to maybe see his perspective? I will tell
you I I knew he was wrong the entire time,
but I had a hard time hating him. So I
think you did a good job of depicting him in
a way where you know he's wrong, and you know
the path he's going down is wrong, and you know

(28:44):
he keeps it's like he keeps trying to make this
fit even though it doesn't fit, and he's he's hammering it.
But for some reason, I couldn't ever hate him. And
I don't know if it's because you shared in the
series a little bit of his backstory and where he
came from, so that the viewer does have some compassion
towards him. And I think that was great that you

(29:05):
did that, because I felt like it wasn't just like,
this is my perspective and I'm going to go down
this road of like my perspective and make this series
the way I want to make it from my perspective,
which it is to a certain extent, but you're also
open to allowing the person watching to have a different
interpretation of each character as well and kind of form
their own opinion. And I think that's what is so

(29:26):
real about it.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah, that was very very intentional because my perspective, my
like my personal perspective is that every single person who
played a part of this like perfect Storm of Insanity,
is understandable, is ultimately relatable if we tap into those

(29:50):
universal human drives and like I do, and I think
that this is a really really important service for us,
actually the innocence movement, because I do not think that
painting people in black and white terms and as heroes
and victims and villains actually helps us understand how wrongful

(30:10):
convictions happen and what to do about it. I think
it really matters to understand that like harm can happen
even when everyone thinks that they're doing the right thing.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
Do you feel the prosecutor is now a better prosecutor
for having prosecutor because.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
He's retired.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
Because anymore?

Speaker 4 (30:43):
Okay, well, I think he's a better person.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Okay, almost almost the same thing. So he has a
better understanding of what took place, mistakes that were made,
or things that could be different or that you know,
I don't know, but I don't want to put words
in people's mouths or any experiences. But he basically has
a different understanding of what took place now that you
two have connected in a more personal level. Yes, after

(31:09):
it's all been pushed behind us. Yes, yeah, yeah, and
I've not been retired. Do you think it would help
him in prosecuting more? I guess objectively?

Speaker 4 (31:22):
Yeah, you know, I don't know. I don't know for
sure about that. What I can say is that I
think the fact like I before me and I guess
since me also, but he never had been approached by
someone that had he had prosecuted before. I am the
only person that he's ever prosecuted who has reached out

(31:45):
to him and wanted to talk to him on a
human level and wanted to like understand who he is
as an actual person. And that deeply impacted him. He
he talks about it as like one of the most
important things that's ever happened to him. So how has
it changed him? I don't I couldn't tell you all

(32:07):
the ways, but I know that it has.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
You know, I want to ask you because the last
couple of episodes we've done, this wasn't even on purpose,
but the last two cases we've done all revolve around
false confessions.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
And when I watched you Know.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Your series, and you're you're being detained, and I assume,
because we talk about this all the time when you're
when you're going to the police station, you assume you're
there helping.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Yes, well and right, absolutely so yeah, So weird facts
about wrongful convictions. So the majority of time that people
are getting wrongly convicted, first of all, they're men, and
first of all, they're usually men of color, and at
least poor some you know, like these are sort of

(32:53):
very common traits to it. But like most of the time,
there's a you know, something bad happens, there's a crime
that occurs, and then an eyewitness sort of points them
in the wrong direction, or the police like get like
an idea description of somebody in their mind and they
go towards that person and they get tunnel vision and
they go after it, and then you know, all these
years later, the you know, the DNA proves them innocent,

(33:15):
and you know, they go through the process of like
interrogating that person. And in one and four murder cases,
like we're talking people who have everything at stake, they
confess to under the pressure of these interrogations, which involve lying,
which involve you know, sometimes third degree techniques, although those

(33:35):
technically aren't legal. And and so I think I think
that just very fact suggests that there's something wrong with
the way that we do interrogations. If in one and
four murder cases where everyone where someone an innocent person
has no motivation whatsoever and has everything to lose if

(33:57):
they falsely confess, they start making false admission and implicating
themselves in a crime, there is something deeply deeply wrong
with the way that we interrogate people.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Absolutely, But a lot of.

Speaker 4 (34:08):
The time, like what happens is like they just happened
to get the wrong person, and then you know, ten
twenty years go by and they finally test the DNA
and they prove that it was somebody else. In my case,
what's so fricking weird is that we knew from the
DNA evidence who committed this crime within weeks. The problem

(34:28):
was that I had already been arrested because I had
already been interrogated and falsely confessed or you know something
my prosecutor likes to point out, as he says, you
didn't falsely confess, you falsely accused someone. And it's like,
regardless of what how you describe it, I was put
through an interrogation where the exact same techniques were implemented,

(34:52):
and what they told me was that I had witnessed
the crime and that I didn't remember it, so I
was lied to. They told me they had, you know,
undeniable proof that I was physically present when this crime occurred.
They told me that I was a witness, that they
weren't accusing me of doing the crime, but they were
accusing me of covering it up, and they were telling

(35:12):
me that I was clearly scared. I was clearly a
good girl. I obviously wanted to help the police. But
what happened is I had been so traumatized about why
by what I had witnessed, that my brain just blacked
it out. However, if I was going to prove that
I was on the side of the good people, I
had to tell them what I couldn't remember. And so eventually,

(35:38):
and this is happening in the middle of the night,
like I'm sleep deprived, I've already been questioned for days
on end, Like I'm just like losing my fucking mind.
It's in a foreign language. Eventually, I'm like, I start
to question myself. They've painted this false reality around me,
and my mind is trying to make sense of it.
And so I finally cave and I'm like, I guess
you must be right. I guess I must have witnessed.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
So fest inaccurately. But when you confessed at that moment,
you truly thought, possibly this is what happened. What they're
telling me is what happened. It wasn't let me confess
to try to get out of something or to lessen
the charge, to leave them.

Speaker 4 (36:15):
I started to think that I was crazy.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Now if I can ask, I know, I don't know
what it's like in Italy and the way they interrogate
and prosecute. But had you not said anything going back
in time and you didn't say anything, said I want
to turn any blah blah blah, and you didn't say anything,
and then they came across that DNA evidence, do you
think they would have then let you get away, like

(36:38):
like released you, I should say, as a suspect. Yeah,
they had the tunnel vision and they were stuck with
you and they had to make it work.

Speaker 4 (36:46):
I don't think I ever would have been arrested had
I not been coerced into So.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Again we're going back to the when you're being pulled
in for a crime that you had nothing to do with.
This seems to be a trend is to keep your
mouth shut, yes, and request an attorney so you don't
do anything incorrect exactly.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
So they can't use anything you say against you.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah. See, getting an attorney doesn't mean to get away
with a crime. No, It also just means so I
know what the hell is going on?

Speaker 4 (37:15):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (37:16):
And also then you're saying, do you have an attorney
sitting there saying no, these are your rights and we're
going to help you, and you're not alone.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
And you don't have to sit here in the middle
of an interrogation in the middle of the night, like
you don't know, Like, no one told me that I
was even a suspect. I was again, they said they
were interviewing me as a witness, and so like I
had no idea they told me when they arrested me,
they didn't tell me they were taking me to prison.
They told me they were taking me to a holding

(37:41):
place for my protection and that it would only be
for a few days.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
And you had every reason to think that that was correct,
because you're like, there's this been horrific murder that took
place in my apartment. I don't know who's if I'm next,
So you probably had every reason to think, Okay, I
want to go be safe.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
You know it's it's such a common theme because we
through so many cases, the interrogations in the middle of
the night, and.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
What cop is wanting to work in the middle of
the night.

Speaker 4 (38:06):
They want to crack you.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
And I'm telling you a lot of people say to
me when you know, we talk about these cases and things,
and a lot of people don't understand how someone could
confess to something that they didn't.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Do, because they just see the news and they hear
he confessed, and that's all. That's all we think. We
don't think the day was, how did they did the
interrogator say, we have DNA evidence and all this false stuff.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
They lie to you because they're allowed to light.

Speaker 4 (38:37):
You know, like there are and again you don't even
have to be hit because like these methods that are legal,
legal I disagree with, absolutely incredibly effective at getting people
to confess, even guilty or innocent.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
My thing is admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
So you never but try explaining that to someone whose
friend's just been murdered. Like I had every reason to
want to cooperate with the police.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
I mean, you were young, I was.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
Experience and obeyed police officers. I have military in my family,
like you know, uniform means authority. Figure it means someone
that you can trust and that you have to obey.
That's what that meant to me. Now, uniforms means they
have an authority. Make me scared, Like to this day,
like I go through airports and like I see people

(39:35):
in uniform and I just like cringe, like and I'm
trying to get over that because I know that it's
not everyone, but just the like knowledge of how much
power that they have over you, Like that's scary to me. Now,
I don't look at someone in uniform and go, that's
someone who's there to protect me. I look at that
as someone who me.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Very much lighter level. My father always told me at
this time that he was pulled over. Drug were planted
on him and he was arrested, and he stayed the
night in jail, and he had if he did it,
he would have told me, right, I mean, my dad
would have told me, oh, yeah, I smoke potware. But
he didn't, and they threw it in the in the car.
They arrested him. He spent the night in jail and
to this, and then he the next day he was

(40:16):
released and whatever. But and he also has very little memory.
When I ask him what happened, I'm like, how would
you not remember the one time you were in court
being a defendant. Anyway, he tells he still gets he
doesn't like police, and specifically in New York to police department,
or excuse me, New York, the Newport Beach Police Department.
He's still sixty seven years later, has a beef with them,

(40:38):
and that was a very small interaction compared to what
some people go through. Well, so it's understandable that you
would be that way.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
And it's hard because like holding people accountable for the
harm that they cause, Like the whole system is sort
of against those of us who are a victim of
the system, Like those of us who are victims of
the criminal justice system don't have great recourse, like it's
it's it seems like everything and everyone wants it to

(41:05):
be our fault, like we are victim blamed like crazy, Oh,
it must be your fault that you were suspicious. It
must be your fault that you got them to think
that you had something to do with it, Like.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
What doesn't happen to me, Yes, my roommate doesn't get murdered.
I don't get in these situations. I'm not guilty. I
don't do these things. You must be guilty because you're
involved in all this.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah, you know what's interesting, And I'll tell you this
because I have a pretty large platform on Instagram, So
I posted that I was interviewing you, and I asked
people to ask questions that they.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
Would like to ask you. They mean to you, No,
not at all.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Some people, I mean the mean to me because of
other reasons, because of me, not because of.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
Anything you've done.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
But it was so interesting to me that I will
tell you that a reoccurring question that I gets over
and over and over, and this is so telling as
to your story is do we finally know who did it?
And it's so this is when you talk about her case,
this is this was interesting to me in your in
your series because you show Rudy Getty, who's the person

(42:16):
who his DNA is everywhere.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
He's clearly hasty breaking entering.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
He committed the crime. He admits it.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
He's on the phone and they record it right and
he even says that Amanda wasn't there, wasn't there, she
had nothing to do with it. He goes to the
fast track trial or whatever. And in the series, it's
so interesting because I'm sure it's absolutely accurate, but there's
no one there at his trial.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
He's he goes on trial for this murder.

Speaker 4 (42:45):
That's the huge, biggest murder, huge in Italy's history.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
It's global it's all over the media. The man who
actually committed the crime is on trial. There's no one watching,
there's hardly any media, there's.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
No press coverage.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
And to this day people still say did they find
the person who actually did it? That just goes to
show you that the media had no interest in people
knowing that that's not a good story, who actually committed
the crime.

Speaker 4 (43:18):
That's where the media ethics part of my right.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
My journalism would follow through on that, but that but
they didn't. They didn't, They didn't care.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
And it is not globally known. She's globally known.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
You say Amanda Knox, and I would say nine out
of ten people probably your name, and can probably once
you start to talk about it, can be like, oh yeah,
I remember that you say his name. Nobody knows nobody,
I would say, the general public doesn't even know it
was ever solved. And that is such a testament to
how much the media just latched onto you and how

(43:55):
you were sensational. You were young, you were pretty, you
were in Italy, you made with your boyfriend. They thought
that was weird whatever, and they just went with that.
And then all the crowds outside your trial that latched
onto it without knowing anything about the case, about not
really knowing any of the facts, not following anything, not
understanding how the forensics and the DNA and everything was

(44:19):
just botched. It was a terrible investigation. They just knew
you yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
And the end result of Rudy's.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
Trial yeah, well yeah, so he elected for what they
call a fast track trial in Italy's witby trial, Yes,
speedy trial. So it wasn't a trial by jury. It
was just within a judge kind of like the I
guess we would call it our like I don't know,
there's not really an equivalent here in the US, but like,
just a judge found him guilty and he was sentenced

(44:49):
to thirty years, but they were reduced to sixteen on appeal,
and then he got out of prison after thirteen years,
and now he is on trial for sexually assaulting another
young woman.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Took place after he was released. Yes, yeah, so he's
a career criminal.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
I mean, he's clearly got issues with women. And it's
so frustrating to me because the truth about what happened
to my roommate matters. The truth matters, and the thing
that like all these institutions that we trust, like they failed.

(45:31):
The Italian justice system failed. I mean, yes, Rudy did
go to prison for this crime, but he was not
actually held fully accountable for the crime, Like he was
never even accused of breaking and entering into our house.
He was never accused of stealing from Meredith, all of
these things that he did. And so he was let
off with a lighter sentence.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Clearly too early because he just came got out.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
Too early, and and you know, points the finger at
me to this day, as soon as he was arrested
suddenly now I'm you know, he latched onto this. I
meant he got an attorney who convinced him to take
the lesser guilt and say, oh yeah, sure, Amanda was there.

(46:15):
And and you know, to this day does that he
takes advantage of the obsession people have with the idea
of me being guilty and uses it to slide underneath,
you know, like to not take accountability for his crimes,
like he is not the person who is known for

(46:36):
Meredith's death. No, and that's obscene, and and the fact
that like no one's even following up to like know
what else is going on with him, Like very very
little media coverage of him whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
I know, I get.

Speaker 4 (46:51):
People complain about everything I do every day.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
That's that's what is crazy crazy to me. Now, when
I watched The Dark Commentary on Netflix that you did
a few years ago, they show an interview with you,
but they also show I would have to tell you,
this guy.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Drives me nuts. I just have to ask you, Nick
Pisa ah.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
Yes, or as my family likes to call him, Nick
Pisa shit.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
Yes, I like that.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Okay, I've been on reality TV for a long time.
I get a lot of crap. Not like I would
never compare, no.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
Comparison at all. We can we bond, I understand it,
but not to the extent that you have.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
But I have never I always make fun I always
make fun of people that come onto my Instagram and
call me horrible names and send me horrible dms, And
I think, what kind of people are these? That you
watch a reality show and then you feel compelled to
say something to me, like can it not just be
entertaining for you? But anyway, I will tell you, Nick
Pisa is the only person I have ever felt compelled
to find on Instagram.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
You did. I looked for him because wait, what's his part. Well,
he wrote for the Daily Mail.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yes, oh yes, I know who he is.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
He was one of the journalists who really like staked his.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Career in the headlights. He loved Yeah, he liked his
name being in print. Yes, I remember him.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
He said it was better than sex.

Speaker 4 (48:03):
Yeah, he said that. And you know what he's conveying though,
is like a true thing about the media, which is
that they were rewarding him for that behavior. So just
print anything, doesn't matter how scandalous, doesn't matter what the
source is. Just print it because anything that has Foxy
Noxy and the headline is going to do well for us.

(48:24):
And he did that, and he would you know, he
actually was one of the people who and this is
this is how what journalism has descended to. But like
in the lead up to my acquittal, nobody knew what
the verdict was going to be, obviously, so he just
wrote two completely separate articles ahead of time, like describing
our reactions.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Just you know, like imagine because he's fabricated.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
He's fabricating. He is not doing journals if he's just fabricating,
like oh Amanda's crying, blah blah blah. And they accidentally
The only reason I know this is because they accidentally
put to the wrong one. Wow, and then they took
it off like within twenty four hours. But like that
shows you the level to which like journalism has descended
because everyone's trying to be the first person to publish,

(49:09):
and to be the first person to publish.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
You have to make shit up. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Yeah, it's like was the President Nixon that had two
different speeches for if the men actually survived landing on
the moon versus if they didn't survive. Yeah, we'll save
that for another day. Okay, Yeah, so this but this
is someone's livelihood, someone's feelings, someone's you know.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
This is journalism, right, This is yeah, journalists, not just
that commending someone or I can understand how the president
would anticipate, like, okay either way, but those.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
Are his words. He wrote what he believed, should they
have not survived, what he felt. This is someone writing
about you.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
Exactly well and and doing it from a journalistic lens, right,
Like I'm reporting the fact.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Yeah, where's the integrity of the one of these facts.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
You're reporting that you're just making up? Right now?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Okay, because that's his nickname that your family has.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
I like that Nick piece of the ship. I feel like
Nick owes you an apology. Have you guys have you
ever had with him?

Speaker 4 (50:13):
No? No, lots of people owe me apologies.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
Well yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
Mean it's funny because like the people who have apologized
to me are the ones who are like least involved,
you know, Like I here's an example of someone who
apologized to me months and it was just like so amazing.
And I actually interviewed her on my podcast. But she
was a model who was very young, very young model
when I was going through everything, and she was hired

(50:43):
to do a model like a photo shoot that she
didn't even know what it was ahead of time, but
it turned out that it was an Amanda Knox themed
photo shoot. So they were like they were showing off clothes,
but like Amanda's in a prison cell doing yoga, or
Amanda's holding up a knife and she's covered in blood.
It was for vice. They were thinking they were being clever,

(51:05):
and she like did it because she was like, I'm,
you know, an aspiring model. I just do any job
that I can. But in the aftermath, she was just
haunted by it for years and she was like, oh
my god, what did I just do? And like it
what is a man? Like she was thinking Amanda might
see these one day and like, oh my god, and

(51:26):
so she was just in fact, I did, and I
was like, oh my god. And then years go by
and she finds me on Instagram and dms me just
to say, hey, I don't know if you ever saw these,
but I participated in this thing and I feel awful
about it. I feel so awful, and I just wanted
to tell you, like, I'm so sorry for being part

(51:46):
of the oparatus that was depicting you in this like
completely dehumanized way. And so, you know, like she could apologize.
I think that other people are just so deeply in
bed with what they did that it's really hard to

(52:07):
like pull back.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
If there's one person that you could get an apology from,
who would it.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Be my prosecutor.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
So so I'm going to assume when you read with him,
there isn't an apology.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
So what you will? It's it's really interesting what happened.
I don't want to give it away, but like I
didn't walk away with nothing.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Okay, you know, so stay tuned.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
Stay tuned, my friends, Okay, stay tuned. Okay, human humans
are really interesting.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Now did he did he know you were making the series? Yeah?
Did he give input or anything? Or was it basically
like we're going to hire an actor to be you?

Speaker 4 (52:47):
And yeah, I mean, like I asked him who he
thought should play him. Yeah, it was really funny that
I'm not going to say who he said. Yeah. But
you know, I also feel completely within my rights to
have boundaries, and this was one of them. I like
I told him about it, like I kept him informed

(53:08):
as it was going on, But I did not feel
at all like I needed to involve him in the
project because it is very much from my perspective, like
it is my story of going back to confront him
and everything that led up to that moment. So like
I've I felt very strongly that, like, this is my
time to tell it the way I would tell her.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Right, So we should watch this knowing exactly that that
this is not just someone who tried to search the
internet and pull it together and recreate this.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
It was Rair exactly. And and again, like I have
to give credit to the creator and showrunner Kagie Steinberg,
because you know, technically she is the creator and showrunner
of the show. It is her vision. But we like deeply,
deeply aligned in so many, so many ways. And when
she would come to me with like ideas, I would
be like, yes, oh my god, Like the Ameilee sequences,

(54:00):
like inspired sequences, those were her idea. She was trying
to like figure out how to tap into, like what's
special about my perspective and the fact that I was
one watching am May Lee when this crime occurred, and
two was actually compared to Ameilee by other attorneys in
the corps. And she was like, well, clearly, like we're
doing an homage to Ammeilee. And I was like, yes,

(54:20):
that's amazing, and I think it does. It accomplishes something
that again you don't see in your typical true crime biopic,
Like it's really attempting to like be artistic and nuanced
and creative and really exploring what it means to be
me and how I perceive the world.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
Where are you right now?

Speaker 1 (54:38):
I mean, I know you're married, and you're happily married,
and you have children and you've moved on, and but
is it important for you to always still have a
voice and to be out there and to be a
part I know you're a part of the Nison Center,
which I am too. Which is amazing because then we'll
get to see each other a lot more going forward.
But is that is that where you're at or is
it your voice? Is that where we're at with you?

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (54:58):
I mean the way that I've been thinking thinking about
it is like I've spent all of these years really
dealing with like dark stuff, Like I've been processing all
of this like really dark dense reality that has that
my life has been entrenched in, and I finally sort
of turned it into the fertilizer I need to like

(55:21):
just blossom. And so I'm feeling all of these like
all this creative energy and like and and and advocacy
energy just like shooting out of me. And and I'm
and I'm finally like finding partners who recognize my value
in that and and don't just try to like tell
me to shut up and disappear. And and so I've

(55:43):
got a lot to say. I've learned a lot from
this process. And and as my husband says, until we
convince every single person in the world that I didn't
deserve to be accused of a crime, I will keep
explaining it to people if they need correction, right right.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
You know what to do?

Speaker 4 (56:01):
Yeah, I got well, you know, like that's never been
really like my goal. That's just like my husband is just.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Like sospective to you though, why you're doing what you're doing,
and it's okay to do what you're doing and.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
Speakers absolutely, and you know what what happened to me
is still able to happen to other people because there
are still like again, the way that we interrogate people
in this country, it follows the same playbook as what
happened to me in Italy, and that is happening to
people right now. And so I have a very clear
vision of how we can change the system for the better.

(56:34):
And as long as like my voice in my story
can help do that, I will keep doing that.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, well, that's still empowered I and I love to
hear you speak because you speak so well and you've
gone through so much. But it's it's from such a
human perspective, which I think is that's what people can
take away from it.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
It's just what you.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Went through and where you are now and how you've
come out and how you're empowered now. You don't want
to be the wilting flower in the background that's afraid
to use your voice because you're afraid people are going
to think that you had something to do with it.
You've just you've moved past that, and you're like, I'm
going to stand up here on this stage.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
I'm going to tell you exactly what happened, and you're
going to listen to me.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
I got some mom energy. Now, I'm a mom. I
have two young kids, and like.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
Mom energy, I tell you, something happens when you have kids.

Speaker 4 (57:15):
Yeah, No, it's like you have to make the world
better for them, absolutely, Like it's not just about you anymore,
and they should be better to them than it was
to me.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
And things that you didn't think that you would ever
be able to do before. Now you have children and
you're like, oh, you're just yeah, absolutely do it.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
Well.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Thank you so much for joining us. This has been
such an amazing conversation. We appreciate you so much, so
make sure you watch.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
It on Hulu.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
It's called The Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox. You will
not be disappointed and I want to know all your
thoughts on what you guys think about it, So please
DM me and we'll continue this conversation again later.

Speaker 4 (57:49):
Sounds great.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Thank you