The Andrea Canning Interview

Emily and Shane are sitting down with Dateline NBC news reporter, Andrea Canning for her take on some of our favorite cases.
First, we’re diving into the disappearance of Crystal Rogers and the breaking news that will be coming out soon… Then, we dive into Karen Read, The Delphi Murders and Ellen Greenberg.
Make sure to watch Andrea’s report on the Crystal Roger’s case this Friday on Dateline NBC! Check your local listings for airtime.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunettes. I
will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane Today.
We are very excited because we're going to have a
very special guest coming on later. I would call her
the Queen of true crime. If you follow true crime
at all, or you watch Dateline, you will recognize the
name Andrea Canning. And she's going to come on a
little later with us, and we're going to talk about today.

(00:23):
It's a case that comes out of a little small
town called Bart'stown in Kentucky, and it is the disappearance
of Crystal Rogers. Now, I have to say I did
not follow this case and it was not on my radar,
even though it received a lot of global attention and
media attention. It was not one of those cases I've followed.
But I have done the best I can to research.
So we're going to give you a brief overview of

(00:46):
the case so you guys can can get to know it,
and then we're going to ask Andrea some more specific questions.
I'm sure she has a lot more details about the case.
So Crystal Rogers was a thirty five year old mother
of five children from Bardstown, Kentucky, and was reported missing
on July fifth, of twenty fifteen. She was last seen
by her boyfriend Brooks Halk on the night of July third,

(01:08):
twenty fifteen, at the home they shared. Two days later,
Roger's car was found abandoned along a parkway with a
flat tire. Her keys, purse, and cell phone were still
located inside the car. The discovery of her car quickly
raised suspicions of foul play. The case took a darker
turn in November of twenty sixteen when Crystel's father, his

(01:29):
name is Tommy Ballard, who had been actively searching for
his daughter, was shot and killed while hunting on his property.
His death remains unsolved, but it is widely believed that
this murder is connected to Crystal's disappearance. Years passed with
very little progress, but in August of twenty twenty three,
the FBI made a significant breakthrough. As of twenty twenty five,

(01:51):
Crystal's body has still never been located. So let's go
back and start with the timeline of this case. So
we're talking about the fourth of July weekend of twenty fifteen.
Brooks Howck was reaching out to Crystal saying, let's have
a romantic type of date night right at their family farm.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
This is at the Hawk family farm.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
How is the boyfriend?

Speaker 1 (02:13):
How is the boyfriend? And also the Hawk family. It
kind of reminds me of the Murdoch family because from
what I've read this Hawk family is they have a
lot of land. They have a large farm with a
lot of land. They own a lot of rental property.
I believe he owns like seventy something properties. He also
does construction and builds homes. So I think they're a

(02:33):
very affluent, well known name in this very small town.
So the last time Crystal Rogers was seen alive with
her then boyfriend, Brooks Howck, was on July third, twenty fifteen.
Halck then told investigators they were at his family farm
together with their son, Eli, and that they left together
that night. He said when he woke up the next day,

(02:54):
she was gone, and Eli, the son, who I think
is like toddler age at the time happened.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
They share a son.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
They share a son together. She has four other children
from other previous relationships, but they do have the one
son together, and Brooks claims that he woke up the
next morning after they went to the family farm the
night before and he said she was gone. He also
claims that the night before the last time he saw her,
he went to bed around midnight and she was playing
on her phone, is what he claims. But the thing is,

(03:25):
he doesn't seem too concerned when he wakes up and
she's not there. And then I remember in an interrogation
or a questioning by the police, this is a detective
John Snow when he questioned him, he was saying, well,
where was Eli, And he said Eli was in bed
with him when he woke up. So he wakes up
and he claims that the baby's in bed with him,
the mother's gone, and he doesn't find that strange.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
First thing anytime some boyfriend or husband just says, I
don't know, she just vanished. She didn't take her purse,
shouldn't take her wallet, she didn't take her kids. She
just disappeared. I mean that right there is a huge right.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Well, he didn't say that.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
He claimed that he just thought she was with her
cousin who is a close friend of hers. Okay, I
believe her name was Sabrina.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
Okay, so so far he has reason to think she
just left early and went somewhere, yes, or at least
that's his story.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
That's his story. So on July fifth, twenty fifteen, Crystal's mother,
Sherry Ballard, reports her daughter missing after she cannot reach her.
That same day, Crystal's car is then found abandoned along
the Bluegrass Parkway. Her keys were in the ignition, her
phone and purse were still in the car, and the
car has a flat tire. Although we did see an
interview with the dad and the brother, and the brother

(04:34):
and the dad were both claiming that she would never
have left her car like that because the tire you
could still drive on.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
It wasn't completely flat, it was flow.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
Remember that he's done that before or something where she'll
drive as far as she candy get somewhere, right.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
And I think that's just females in general, because I
would do the same thing.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
I tell my kids that I say we can buy
a new reel right.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
It means your safety right exactly.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
So I can't imagine if the car is still functioning
and the tire is not completely flat, that you wouldn't
just continue on until you got to a parking lot
or somewhere safe, not just abandoning a car on the
side of the road, leaving your purse, your cell phone.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
And then left right. So July eighth of.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Twenty fifteen, brooks Howe is brought into the police station
and is questioned by Detective John Snow. He's also named
of a person of interest at this time. I actually
watched this. I don't know what you want to call it.
You want to call it an interrogation, questioning, whatever, you know.
The thing that I think is the most interesting is
when someone can't really answer precise questions about times when

(05:35):
someone has disappeared, when they're not sure, and it felt
like the detective was like, well, did you leave it
this time?

Speaker 4 (05:42):
Oh sounds good, Also not even making an effort to
try to recall, like trying to put the pieces.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Together right, Like it was just like, yeah, that sounds good. Sure,
maybe like that, yeah, probably about that time.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
No, no, right. And also the red.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Flag is claiming that they were at this family farm
and that they were and that he had, you know,
lit a fire. He said, he burns a lot of
things at this farm, and he had the sun with him,
and she was there too, and they were there for
a long span of time. He claims. However, it's like
muddy and cold and rainy that day. So I don't
know how you're out at a family farm with a
little child and you're out in the rain and the

(06:16):
mud and you're there for a long period of time.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Behavior.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
So then during this this is also interesting. So during
this questioning, around seven pm, he gets a call on
his cell phone and I watched this interrogation or questioning,
whatever you want to call it. His cell phone rings
and he says to the detective, do you mind if
I answer this? And the detective says, my co conspirator,
I would sure go ahead. First of all, I can't

(06:43):
imagine if I'm in a police station across from a
detective being questioned about the disappearance of my significant other
that I'm like, excuse me for a moment, can I
please take this call?

Speaker 3 (06:54):
But he does well, and him take the call knowing it.
Oh yeah, I'm so.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Anyway, his brother, Nick, how who is a police officer
at the Bardstown Police Department. Department this, if you guys
have the opportunity, just google it. Google this, this interrogation,
this questioning. You have to watch this phone call. It's
the most bizarre phone call to me because if you
called me and I picked up during you know, this questioning,

(07:22):
and you're telling me things, my responses on the other
end would be like okay, uh huh okay.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
But everything's like, okay, where do we put the body?

Speaker 5 (07:32):
Hey?

Speaker 1 (07:32):
So he's like, so you're telling me I shouldn't answer
question like he's everything he's saying is like, so okay,
So just to so you're saying, right, so fred I
should get up and I should walk out and leave.
It's just so bizarre to me, this conversation incriminating myself, right,
And so he hangs up with his brother and he's like,

(07:53):
that's my brother. He's a police officer. He's telling me
that you guys are gonna screw me and that I
need to leave. So I'm not going to answer any
questions anymore. He doesn't trust cop, he doesn't exactly, So
I guess at that point the questioning ends, and then
you know Nick Howe, who's a police officer.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Then they know about this, right, it's right there. I mean.
So then his chief of.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Police or whoever he's on their radar right now, he's.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
On the radar.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
They go to him and they're like, why would you
not answer questions. You need to go down and answer
this detective questions immediately, so then you get video footage
of them questioning the brother. The brother can't remember anything.
He doesn't know anything, he can't recall, doesn't like I.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Pick up this phone call.

Speaker 4 (08:35):
He has no idea my brother, and he's telling me
not to answer anything.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
He can't recall anything.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
He doesn't know what the two brothers did together after
she disappeared. They I guess they have video surveillance of
like the two of them leaving together. He doesn't know
where they went. He doesn't know what they're doing. He
can't he doesn't remember anything. He gets fired, well, yeah, he.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Has no memory. He can get cop it without a memory.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
He's accused of warning Brooks not to speak to police,
and he has later fired from the Bardtown Police to
apartment for interfering in the investigation.

Speaker 4 (09:03):
You know, it is interesting though, because just because he's
a police officer doesn't mean that his brother can't plead
the fifth can't have an attorney and must spill everything.
But I think there's some I don't know. I just
figure with police officers, there's something where if there's an investigation,
they either can't get can't meddle into someone's business. You know,

(09:26):
if they're trying to conduct an investigation, or maybe they're
not to they themselves have to be interviewed. And if
someone is not criminal, they have to tell everything. And
here he is not remembering anything, basically not being willing
to share.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
So they cut him lose.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
Probably he probably violated some employment agreements as a police officer.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
So then about sixteen months after this, they still haven't
found the body, and they haven't arrested anyone.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
They've never found the body.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
They've never found the body.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
I mean, give me an update, it will be they
still haven't found.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
They still haven't found the body. But here we are
sixteen months later. So just to give you a little background,
Crystal's dad, Tommy Ballard, was he became an investigator himself.
He was so hell bent on finding his daughter that
he spent every single day investigating what happened to her.
He was either internet searching or he was going around
by foot and interviewing people. He had a huge box

(10:19):
that was very well organized. He kept logs of everything,
He kept dates and receipts, and he went and got
video footage from surveillance cameras, and so he was heavily
involved in trying to find out what happened to his daughter. Then,
sixteen months after she disappeared, this is in November of
twenty sixteen, Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard, goes out hunting with

(10:40):
his grandson on their own property and he is shot
and killed while he's hunting.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Eleven year old son. Right, I believe he.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Was around eleven something like that.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
The shooting has rolled a homicide, but no suspects are identified.
After his death, the community's suspicions grow that both cases
are connected. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket science
is to figure out that it's most likely connect to
the disappearance of Crystal Rogers because you have a dad
that's heavily involved in investigating, and I feel like maybe
he was coming close to learning things. He was interviewing people,

(11:09):
he was pulling surveillance, and if he was meddling and
finding and getting too close to things, I mean.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
You're gonna have a hunting accident.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
You're gonna have a hunting accident.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, And you know, I saw Oxygen did kind of
a documentary and this is before his death.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
There were a lot of.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Interviews with him, and they were following him and then
they interviewed the brother and the brother showed them the
location where he was shot when he was out hunting,
and there was actually a line of trees that was
very thick, but they found an area where someone had
cut the trees to make a hole so that you
had a clear view into the property. So they believe
that's where the shooting came from. And you know when

(11:48):
I say that, they the branches had you know, clean edges.
Someone had taken a tool and it was it wasn't
a bear, it was human tool that had removed a
lot of this brush so that there was a clear
area to shoot from. And they also believed that they
found the kickback, which I'm not like a gun owner person,

(12:09):
I didn't know what that meant. But they explained the
kickback is when you're holding the rifle and they're like
leaning up against the tree to shoot him. Then the
kickback hit the tree and they found a wedge missing
out of the tree, which would have been the kickback.
So they think they know exactly where the shot was
fired from. There's also another murder we're not going to
go in depth into this, but there was also a
murder of a police officer prior to Crystal's disappearance. He

(12:32):
was murdered right before her. And there's also people that
think that there is some connection there because he worked
with Nick Hawk at the police department, so that was
prior to Crystal Rogers, prior to her disappearance.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
They think there's a connection in terms of those who
murdered or that it's the same motive like the.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
I don't know, you know, what I was thinking in
my takeaway was maybe ellis this cop who was a
good cop, knew something about.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
Well, how'd you know he was a good cop.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Well that's what everyone said in the interview, that he
was like a great cop and that he was like
a friendly guy and he was involved in his community.
The married kid was suspicion, so he had no you know,
stains one's reputation or anything. I think he and he
had worked with the Nick Hawk at this police department.
I don't know if they weren't partners or anything, but
they worked in the same department. I'm just putting things together.
But maybe he saw something or knew something and they

(13:25):
needed to get rid of him, and then maybe Crystal learned.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
About that somehow.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Maybe she learned about this murder of Ellis, this officer Ellison.
Maybe she knew too much, and then the dad knew
too much about her. It seems like all these people
are connected somehow in this very small town. So in

(13:49):
August of twenty twenty, this is when the FBI officially
takes over the investigation into Crystal rogers disappearance, executing search
warrants at Brooke Howke's home, his family farm, and other
related properties. Agents also sees evidence from Nick Howke's home
and several vehicles. In August of twenty twenty one, the
FBI returns to Bardstown to search a subdivision built by

(14:11):
the Hawk family, focusing on new construction sites that may
have been disturbed after Rogers disappeared. You know, I know,
I mean, they're searching for a body, right. They don't
want to they don't want to bring murder charges against
someone without a body. That's it's hard to do. So
you want to find the body.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
A missing body does not mean they're dead.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
You can assume, you can make an assumption, but.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
You can assume wherever you want.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
Yeah, but legally that does not automatically there are other
things that have to come into play.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Well, I do believe she was actually legally.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Eventually, i'd spent in the offset. It's not like, oh,
she's been missing for three days.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
She's dead.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
And they're obviously looking at these sites where he's constructing things,
because that's the perfect way to get rid of a body. Right,
You're you do construction? Tell me, well, I don't know,
because I've never done that. But I'm just saying if
I work in construction, I build houses and I'm pouring concrete,
it seems like kind of poltergeist, right. They also they
also have searched a lake. There's a lake near their

(15:08):
family farm called Lake Melody.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
I think I saw that. That's a massive lake.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
It's a massive lake.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
They do a grid pattern, which I wasn't sure how
you searched a lake, but that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
They they don't just I don't.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Know, I would just get out a boat, willy nilly,
you know, I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
But they clearly have a grid pattern.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
They had the the cadaver dogs on the boat and
the cadaver dog.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
The cadaver dog's name is Gina.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
By the way, Gina, Gina would signal in the same
area on like two different occasions searching this lake, and
then the divers would go down you know where she
would signal, and they still couldn't find anything. So the
lake's been searched a few times, they still haven't found anything.
Now here we get some co conspirators. First of all,

(15:55):
we know the brother Nick Hawk knows something, right, I mean,
he's involved in some way, I'm sure. And there's also
some some evidence that was found in his police cruiser.
Apparently there was a blanket that was found in his
police cruiser that like might have had some hair of
like crystal on it.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Or in it or something, and it was similar to hers,
but it was not ruled an exact match right that
the DNA right.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
But there was also somehow there was some recording made
of Rosemary, who is the mother of Brooks and Nick,
having a conversation with Nick. I don't know how they
recorded themselves accidentally, but there was some accidental I don't
know maybe, I mean I couldn't really find details of it,
but somehow there was an accidental recording made of Rosemary

(16:44):
asking Nick about the blanket and the in the trunk
of the car and being concerned about it, So.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
I don't don't, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
That's all I can get from these articles is that
that's how I felt.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
I read a little bit about the case too, it
it felt like there was a lot of I don't know,
it felt messy and unclear on a lot of things.
Like you just said, it's like, oh, there's a hair
and it's kind of the same but not an exact match.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Oh there's a blanket.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
Oh, then the police officer says not to answer questions,
but he didn't reveal anything himself, Like.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
It's just, yeah, frustrating, it is frustrating. I think it's
very clear. The facts of the case are very clear
up until the point where I believe the FBI starts investigating,
and I think they were very tight lipped on the evidence,
and that's why it's difficult to decipher what it is
that they found.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
But they did.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
In twenty twenty three, they conduct another round of searches,
reportedly finding new evidence tied to Roger's disappearance. And then
this is also when they found evidence of co conspirators
being involved with Brooks' HOWK and the disappearance.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
And here's another question, how did they connect. How did
they find these co conspirators. I couldn't see that either.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, from what I understand, and it's not very clear,
but there someone testified or must have told the FBI
when they were that they overheard a conversation of Joseph
Lawson and like the dad, So Joseph has a son, Steve.
The dad is Steve Lawson. I believe Steve Lawson works
with Brooks.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
How he gets work from the realtor or the realty
side of the company, of the family business. And you know,
the theory is maybe he was going to support you know,
he wanted to have close ties with Brooks in order
to get more business. So he might have you know,
helped him a serpent that way.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, well, allegedly or I think it comes up in
trial that there was someone overheard a conversation between Rosemary,
who again is the mother of Nick, and Brooks how
asking I believe it was Steve if he knew anyone
that could get rid of Crystal.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, and he wanted Crystal gone.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
I wanted Crystal gone something like that, some conversation like that.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
I didn't say dead or just gone gone.

Speaker 5 (18:50):
Ye.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, And then I believe he said something to the
effect of, well you can get rid of anyone with
a right amount of money or.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Something like that.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
And apparently there was a fifty thousand dollars pay or something.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Made money exchanged.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
I read fifty thousand. I don't know what the evidence
was to prove it was fifteen thousand, but there was
something like that.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Wire.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
So Joseph Lawson is the son of Steve Lawson, and
I believe Joseph Lawson was involved because he was the
one that drove the car, her car that was left
along the highway and left the car there. So Joseph
Lawson is indicted for conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy
tampering with physical evidence. It is not Lawson's first run

(19:30):
in with the law. He had multiple criminal charges prior
to this, including fourth degree assault, first degree strangulation, domestic
violin summons, and persistent felony offender.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
The court.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
The court records alleged Joseph Lawson was hired by Brooks
how to kill Crystal for fifty thousand. So Joseph Lawson
is the son and then the dad is Steve. But
Joseph is the one that drove the car.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
I believe he moved the car to Mislead investigations, and
I think he went back with the dad or something,
because then they wanted to remove like a bat and
then the car seat they had or they tried to
fix the car seat because you know he's probably taller
they can, right, So that that's enough where it's like, Okay,
you got your hands involved in this disappearance. She's presumed dead,

(20:15):
so now you're a conspirator in the murder.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Right.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
So in September of twenty twenty three, Brooks Howck is
arrested and charged with murder and tampering with physical evidence
in the death of Crystal Rogers. His bond is set
at ten million. Court records alleged that how planned her
death and disposed of her remains. Steve Lawson, the father
of Joseph Lawson and former employee to Brooks Howeck, has
charged with conspiracy to commit murder. That makes three people

(20:38):
facing charges in her disappearance. So in November of twenty
twenty four, we're getting into almost present day here. So
this case started back in twenty fifteen. Just a reminder,
the judge approves two separate trials in this case. The
judge also moves the case out of that county and moves.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
It to the Challenge.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
The trials are for who, so the two separate, separate
trials are Steve Lawson will be tried separately from his son,
but Joseph and Brooks Holck are tried together. So then
on May thirtieth, the twenty twenty five, this is after
Steve Lawson's trial. He was found guilty on both counts
conspiracy to murder and tampering with physical evidence. So there

(21:15):
was some damning evidence presented during trial against Steve Lawson.
They had recorded jail calls and statements. Prosecutors played recorded
calls Lawson made from custody and used them to show
consciousness of guilt and incriminating admissions about moving vehicles and
helping conceal evidence. The recordings were highlighted during the closing.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Of his trial.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Witness testimony places Lawson in a role moving Rogers car.
Family and other witnesses testified that Lawson picked up his
son Joseph and helped him move Crystal Rodgers' vehicle on
or around July third. The prosecution argued that that conduct
was part of the conspiracy and the tampering with evidence
then in July eighth to twenty twenty five, brooks Howck
is found guilty. He goes on trial for his own

(21:56):
murder or his own you know, his own murder, his
own self murder charges. Okay, So brooks Howse is found
guilty of murder and they called it principal or accomplice
because they could never definitively prove who. We just know
that she's dead and these three people are involved, but
we don't know who actually pulled.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
The trigger or why.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
I didn't like this case very much. It was very
difficult to like.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Distinguish who did what, whose role was what. Yeah, so
brooks House.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
It's more of a well, we know you guys did
something right, So he's gone.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
So you're all in trouble, but we don't really know
how to divvy up who did what.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
So we'll just fire the police officer. Yeah, put all
of you in jail, and then we'll try you guys.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Brooks Howck has found guilty of murder, principal or accomplice,
and tampering with physical evidence. He is sentenced to life
in prison. Joseph Lawson is found guilty of conspiracy to
commit murder and tampering with evidence, and he is sentenced
to twenty five years in prison. So let's just talk
about a little bit. Let's go through this. The most
damning evidence presented against brooks How. This is what I

(23:01):
was trying to understand because I didn't follow the trial.
This case wasn't on my radar, and this is just.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Very media friendly, right, Well, I think in that town
was sure everyone in the town knew.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
That's yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
But I mean, I don't know, I don't know why.
It was just I didn't really know much about it.

Speaker 4 (23:17):
Probably not until things surface, didn't it what caused it
to surface more recently.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Because he just went on trial this summer twenty five.
Just some of the evidence against brooks How was his
own written police statement. There were a lot of inconsistencies
in it and contradictions. You know, he claimed that she
was playing on her phone the night he saw her
the last time, up until midnight, but then forensics showed
that her phone was shut off at you know, nine

(23:42):
twenty seven.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Again, didn't they ping his cell phone?

Speaker 4 (23:45):
Their cell phones? Yeah, approximate area. So it was very
suspicious behavior, exactly. It was all very circumstantial.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
It all was there's no smoking gun in.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
This case, a life sentence on a circumstantial case.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right, Okay, So we're super excited to have our guest today.
Andrea Canning from Dateline. Andrea Canning is a correspondent for
Dateline NBC, the longest running primetime show in NBC history.
Since joining the news magazine in twenty twelve, she has

(24:18):
delivered breaking news and in depth investigative reports. In addition
to hosting the podcast Dateline True Crime Weekly, Andrea also
hosts the syndicated Dateline series and contributes to several Dateline
NBC podcasts, including Talking, Dateline, After the Verdict and Missing
in America. Her contributions to journalism have earned her three

(24:39):
News and Documentary Emmy nominations. Andrea is married to a
US Marine Corps reservist and F eighteen fighter pilot, Lieutenant
Colonel Tony Bancroft, and together they have five daughters and
a son.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Hi, Andrea, Hey, Hi, I'm so excited to have you
on today. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
You know, I was thinking about and I feel like
we've been like dming and texting for years and years,
but I don't think we've ever actually met in person,
have we?

Speaker 2 (25:07):
No we haven't.

Speaker 5 (25:08):
So it all started with Kelly like way back in
the day.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Oh that's right.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (25:13):
Then she's the one who was like, yeah, I don't
even know.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Thank you for joining us today. First of all, I
love Dateline. I've been watching Dateline for years.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
I've always been such a true crime junkie, and that's
why I've always just been Were you always a true
crime fan or was that something that came later?

Speaker 5 (25:28):
Yeah? No, No, I was like I I did this
appearance on the Kelly Clarkson Show like last year, and
they were like, did you They asked, like a similar question. Yeah,
you know. Yeah, actually to the point where we my
dad found this book that I had written at eight
years old. Okay, it was called Murder Mystery and there

(25:50):
was a knife dripping blood on the Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (25:53):
Well I'm glad you went in the direction of journalism.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
In the other direction, right right, right, Well all right,
so we just did right before you came on. We
just kind of went through and did a brief synopsis
of the Crystal Rogers case. And I know that I'm
sure you know way more than we do.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Is there anything?

Speaker 1 (26:12):
We just kind of got up to the point where
Brooks went to trial, he was convicted, he's in prison
for life. I would and what can you tell me
could obviously you've been following this case.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
You know a lot about it.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
I believe you were supposed to were you supposed to
interview him recently?

Speaker 5 (26:28):
Uh? Yeah, So he wants to talk, is what I
told our team. Okay, but his attorney was telling him
not to and so uh huh he backed out.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Okay, all right, what did you follow the trial closely
for Brooks?

Speaker 5 (26:44):
Yes, I've yes, I've been very immersed in this case.
And yeah, have an upcoming episode coming on very soon.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
So Andrea, let me ask you, first of all, do
you think, just in your professional opinion, because you've been
involved in true crime for so long, do you think
that we will ever be able to know what happened
to Crystal and where her body's located?

Speaker 5 (27:04):
I mean that is you know the million dollar question,
right what happened to Crystal? The family? You know obviously
Brooks how you know they believe that he is responsible
for this. They also point the finger at members of
his family. Then there's the two other men that were
you know, Joseph and Steve Laws, and you know they

(27:26):
they believe one they know where Crystal's remains are, you know,
or her body, and they are just not saying. And
you know, that was the one thing you know during
sentencing was like tell me where my daughter is, and
they just you know, crickets, like they just will not say.
And I mean there were you know, when we interviewed investigators,

(27:49):
there were mentions of like, oh, you know, I fetter
to the hogs. You know, things like that, like never substantiated.
There was also a fire that was on the prop
that night where they took her car, and but they
stifted through the the you know, the ash and everything,
and they found no remains of Crystal. So you know,

(28:10):
with all that, all the properties and everything, I mean,
she could be anywhere, like you know, it's it's really
hard to say. Do I think we'll find out? I mean,
that is up that is for them to do the
right thing and to tell this family where she is.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
You know, I'm surprised.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I'm not surprised that Brooks didn't break and say, you
know where she is, because obviously he's maintaining his innocence, correct,
I mean, he's he's yes, right, But the the other
two Joseph and Steve. I'm surprised they didn't use that
as a bargaining chip at some point, you know, during
what once they were indicted, And I'm surprised they didn't
sit across from prosecutors and say, you know, make some

(28:50):
kind of plea deal about where the body is to them.

Speaker 5 (28:54):
I mean that you know that that I don't. I'm
not sure if that was offered to them. I would
have to pull up the transcript because they did a
really lengthy interview with the prosecutors. But she, I mean,
and it's a great question, like, you know, why why
not you know, why not get a great deal? Let's
say here, I can offer up where she is, you know,
and we see that all the time in these cases,

(29:15):
right the first person to squeal, you know, you know
gets the deal, right, right, you know, in this case
they didn't.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
So what is your opinion on Tommy ballor do you
do you believe it's all connected?

Speaker 5 (29:32):
So I'm going to just speak from common sense, right,
you know, I don't know. The police have not confirmed
to us that they even if they think they're connected.
They're very almost cryptic about it in the way that
they talk about it. But if you were to talk
to a lot of people in the community and use
common sense. And if you talk to the family, clearly

(29:54):
one hundred percent they believe they're connected. I mean, Tommy is,
you know, getting closer and closer to various things. He's
you know, devoted his life at this point to solving
his daughter's murder, to finding her. And then you know,
and there's a there's a man that's brought up in
all of this, and apparently Tommy was really close to

(30:14):
this other man that has not been charged when with anything.
I'm not going to say his name, but he somehow
fits into this puzzle. Tommy was getting closer to this man, right,
and then he turns up dead. And so again I
go back to common sense. He's investigating his daughter's murder,
he's getting close, closer and closer to all these things, right,

(30:36):
and then he's dead. So the community, I would say
that the majority of the community believes that they're connected.
The mom Sherry, you know, really believes they're connected. And
then you have to look at the the murder of
Jason Ellis. So I'm not sure how a ware you
guys are. Did you talk about him at all?

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well, yeah, we did talk about him a little bit,
and I was saying, I was just trying to connect
thoughts because, like you said, how everything's very crypto. I
feel the same way because I've done as much research
on this case as possible, and it's very It's very
easy for me to find out everything that happened up
until the FBI kind of took over, and then it's
very difficult to understand how they put all the pieces
together to kind of bring the co conspirators in andto

(31:15):
and how Jason Ellos kind of relates to everything.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
But the unindicted co conspirators.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Unindicted co conspirators exactly. I was going to ask you
about that too, but you know, it's not clear to
me how Jason is involved other than I'm just trying
to piece things together. But he was a police officer
along with Nick how correct, at the same police department. Yes,
my interpretation, just from trying to use basic common sense,

(31:40):
is that maybe he knew something or witnessed something or
saw something and then.

Speaker 5 (31:46):
Yeah, that is the running theory if these are connected.
And by the way, we will have an interview on
Friday's dateline with the FBI. Okay, so there's they're speaking out. Okay,
so yeah, I mean the Jason ellis Uh, when you
ask everyone, no one seems to have this clear link

(32:07):
like oh they got in this big fight, or he
was investigating Nick Howk for drugs or you know, there's
no there's nothing like that that you can say, Oh, well,
there's the motive, you know what I mean. The motive
they believe the family believes is that Nick there may
have been some issue like and that that they believe

(32:29):
Nick is not only involved in you know, this this
murder of Jason, but also Tommy. And that is the
family's feeling, right, that is what they are saying. That
is what they told us in their interviews. You know
that that Nick is somehow involved in this, and you
know they did. They appointed the Attorney General appointed a

(32:52):
special prosecutor, Shane Young, who was asked to look into
the murders of Tommy, Chris Still and Jason. But when
you interview him and you ask him, well, that seems
logical that you know they're all connected, he will not
say that. He will not. He just says, I have
just been appointed to look at these things. I'm not

(33:13):
saying that they're connected.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
We don't know, right, you know, I think just for me,
just using brain cells and common sense, it feels to
me that there is some kind of connection, you know,
But we'll have to wait and see.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
And what what when you interview.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
The FBI, do you think you're gonna I mean, you
think that you're going to learn a lot of new
things that haven't been out there before.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Is that your hope?

Speaker 5 (33:35):
Yeah? So then the FBI has been interviewed and they
are currently in the program that has been being finished
as we speak. The team is very feverishly working to
get the episode finished and that'll be a you know,
something that you'll find out on on Dateline.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Well, I'm super excited to watch that episode because I
feel like I have so many questions, so I'm hoping
that I get a lot more answers when that episode
comes up. Do you mind if I switch gears and
just ask you about the Karen Reid trial?

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Did you see?

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, there's all the new I guess evidence that's coming
forward from Proctor's phone that I guess they were able
to tap into as iCloud, not just the phone.

Speaker 5 (34:15):
You know. I was so immersed in that story as well.
That was a wild story and being there I was
there in the courthouse when the pot oh you actually
sitting in the like in this room in the courthouse,
just kind of like on hold, and then where we
got word, you know, and then there's a predict and

(34:37):
then the cheers from outside. Wow, it was so loud.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, you know, what was What was your takeaway?

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Because I'll tell you we did a podcast on the
Karen Reid uh just Karen Reid, and we did a
very in the very beginning. Shane didn't know anything about
Karen Reid at all. So when I just laid out
the facts of the case, like a very cursory type
of like this happened, he was immediately.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
He was like, she did it, She's guilty. She ran
over him.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
I mean, that was his takeaway. And I was like, okay, wait,
now we're going to take a deeper dive into this
whole conspiracy and everything that happened that night. So then
we did another episode. We took a deep dive, and
then he completely flipped and was like, you know, there's
no way that you can convict this woman. What was
your takeaway from all that? I mean, from my perspective,
I just thought there is so much reasonable doubt going

(35:26):
on that night that if I was sitting on that jury,
I could never convict this woman. I understand that the
logical takeaway is, Okay, she drank too much, he got
out of the car, they had to fight whatever, she
backed into him. But when you hear all the other
evidence of what happened that night, it's just convict her.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
No, they retried her.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
It's one of those things where, like, from like a
common sense thing, you know, you're like, like you said,
it sounds like, yeah, she did it right when you
just lay it out or whatever, But then when you
start going down that rap hole of you know, all
the stuff that came out, you're like, hmm, maybe she didn't,
Maybe she didn't. You go back and forth, maybe she didn't,

(36:09):
maybe she didn't, maybe she did. But at the you know,
at the very least, is that reasonable doubt which was
opened up, you know, from these text messages that were
you know, sent about her, and and like just I mean, honestly,
we could you guys know, we could sit here forever
and talk about this, but there's so many, so many

(36:30):
things that like didn't add up. So it's kind of
one of those ones where, like you you understand why
the family feels the way they do. Then she did it,
and then you understand why all these supporters think she
didn't do it. Like it's that's what made it such
a fascinating case. And I interviewed Michael Proctor, okay, and
he was really upset about how did my you know,

(36:51):
personal text messages? How did they get them? And you know,
and that's something to remember for everybody, like just because
you're on a personal phone doesn't mean you know, Mark's
not want to tap into that, you know, And he
was that that was the one thing that bothered him.
But he definitely was painted as the villain in all
of this. And you know, he acknowledges I never should

(37:13):
have said those things, and you know, you know, it
was like and he's, you know, he's trying to get
his job back. But at this point I.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Think he I think I think I read that he
he's not trying to do that anymore, like something like.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
He withdrew whatever.

Speaker 5 (37:29):
Oh did Okay?

Speaker 2 (37:30):
I believe so yeah, I mean I wouldn't.

Speaker 5 (37:32):
Be surprised because I haven't checked in in a while
to see what's going on with you guys. Are I
feel like you guys are more up to date on.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
This, well, I mean I try to be, and I'll
tell you just from all the people that listen, I
get so many fans that send me updated information.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Which is nice.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
So the reason I knew about the update with Michael
Proctor and Karen Reid was because a fan sent me
a video clip of talking about You'll have to reinterview
him and ask him how he feels about them, able
to tap into his iCloud now his right, what is
it called?

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Chane? Is that the cloud?

Speaker 3 (38:06):
The cloud?

Speaker 2 (38:07):
The cloud? Right? Yeah, so all right, so yeah, no,
he was.

Speaker 5 (38:12):
Not none too happy about that obviously because that really
upended his life. But then you know, he shouldn't have
written those things, like you know, those things were crude
and awful and you know, whether whatever his whether he
had a role in this or he didn't have a
role in this in a bad way like that just
is such a bad look. You know that that he

(38:33):
he texted those things, and that really opened the door
to what you know, the John O'Keefe's family calls the
Karen Reid Show. They feel like this was a production
you know by Alan Jackson. You know that he created
this whole thing, and but he had a lot to

(38:54):
work with.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
Well, I mean you can make that, you can say that,
but he he was able to put teeth into because
there was so many things that lent to this possible
conspiracy going on. Did you ever did you ever have
the opportunity to interview Alan Jackson?

Speaker 5 (39:10):
Yes? I did. Yeah, I interviewed him in his office
in downtown LA and we went down to the garage
afterwards and we did like a little show and tell
with an suv to talk about you know, the light
that the tail light right. Yeah, he really went over
like why this was impossible? You know that she did this?

(39:33):
And so that was a little show and tell that
we had in the episode.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, I tell you I was very impressed by Alan Jackson.
I would say that would be because someone asked me
the other day who would be your dream guest to
come on your podcast? And I said, I said Alan Jackson.
But I was talking to Jen Pedronte when I told
her that, and she said, why would you have a
country singer on your podcast?

Speaker 3 (39:53):
And I was like, Jed, is there a country singer
named Alan Jackson?

Speaker 5 (39:57):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (39:57):
There is. I did not want Alan Jackson the country singer,
even though that would be that would be amazing too.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
I would make it work somehow.

Speaker 5 (40:03):
But it's so funny because when I was trying to
pull up in my brain you know Alan Jackson's name,
because it's just been a minute, Well, I went, wait,
country singer.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Country singer, Alan Jackson.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Exactly.

Speaker 5 (40:16):
I never forget his name because of that.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Exactly. Did you follow Delphi the Delphie murders.

Speaker 5 (40:31):
I was on that case as well.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Okay, I will tell you this is just my own
personal opinion. I think they have the wrong man.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Really, I do the man on the bridge, right, the
man on the bridge.

Speaker 5 (40:41):
The bridge, I don't like chilling story, it really is.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
I I don't know, it's just something. I just don't
think it's Richard Allen his.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
Interrogation that you felt he was pretty genuine.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Right, I did, And I just felt how he came
up on the radar with the tip that was misplaced,
and I felt like they were trying and make him
fit into it. And then you know, honestly, the whole
Odin theory out there I thought was ridiculous until I
really took a deep dive into it, and then I
was like, Okay, maybe that's not that crazy, and we
don't know.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
I went out there with to the woods with the
defense attorneys and we did a whole thing on the odinism. Yeah,
and how the sticks were placed and it was on
the tree and everything. You know. Of course, the prosecution
says that's a bunch of you know, right Mularney, mallarkey.
But you know, the defense attorneys are really feel strongly

(41:35):
that there's something to that. That's another one that you
know that there is that like there's some stuff to
work with, you know, was it Richard Allen? I mean,
the biggest mistake if you're on the on the team prosecution,
the biggest mistake that was made was was the the
police officer. But he's like a park police, like the

(41:58):
conservation confer that he interviewed Richard and then didn't like
really think much of it. And he rich Allen like
kind of fits some of the description of Bridgeman and
he's out there. He says that he's out there that morning.
I mean, for me, that was not They were in

(42:19):
the interviews, they were protecting him a little bit. But
I'm like, wow, that is like, for just personal opinion,
not the best detective work. There, like, you know, at
least bring him in and really drill down on him,
you know, instead of just being like, oh okay and
putting the tip in a you know, it wasn't even
a tip. He interviewed him, the conservation officer. And then
it was a lady who worked for the Sheriff's department,

(42:40):
a volunteer who was constantly just giving her time and
going through all the paperwork, and they were moving offices
the paperwork, and she found it in there. She was like, Hey,
what about this guy? And they were like, oh my gosh,
how did we miss this? You know, So that's like
how that all came about that.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
I know, I just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
When I see his his interviews, I don't know, he
just you know, like when I when I think about
when I watched the interview of when they interviewed bricks Halk,
I mean, that's that's to me. I I watch that
and I think this guy, like he gets the phone call, right,
he gets the phone call from his brother. That looks
completely staged. I mean, he can't remember things.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Richard Allen just had a completely different vibe to me.
And that's just a personal takeaway that I really just
got the feeling that like, he I don't know, And
then I just can't picture that man doing all that
in the short amount of time and across the river
and the whole thing and then back in the car.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Anyway, I could be completely wrong, But.

Speaker 5 (43:37):
When you're when you're standing there, like by that bridge, yeah,
there's like now like they built something there, so you
can't because all the kids used to go out there
and they do prom pictures or like you know, they
would take it's when you stand there and you look
at that bridge that those girls went on and then
this man like following them, it is terrifying. It is

(43:57):
so high up and there's no like guardrails or anything,
and there's there's like broken ties and spaces in between.
And I was just like, oh, like the thought of
those girls, it was so haunting and so awful. And
imagine that you're being hunted by this man in that
moment and you're on this thing that's so high up, yeah,

(44:20):
you know, and to get to the other side and
here he comes, and then you have the wherewithal to
hit record on your phone.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
And you know what's so interesting is anytime you have
actual footage of someone. I feel like it's always when
you release it to the public, it's always seems like
there's someone that recognizes someone's mannerisms or just yeah, they
look at it and they're like, I know, that's that person.
And the fact that like no one could really identify
exactly who he was or or I don't know.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
I just I guess because.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
It's just and it's a small town, right, it's a.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Small town, but I guess because he's just it's just
so indistinct. I mean, the car, hearts and the I
don't know, and the jeans and the thing.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
It's just not enough for us.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
This is it's not.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Maybe because I work with the Innocent Center so much,
so I'm so like, you know, but.

Speaker 5 (45:07):
And you know, I just wanted to say your work
is so great, like all the effort you put into
that for those people that you know have had such
a bad shake in life. You know that that they're
I mean, can you imagine spending even a day in
prison for a crime you didn't commit, let alone you know, years.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
I know, and you know, I've become friendly with a
lot of the exonerated persons, and you know, every time
I talk to them. The fact that they have such
good attitudes and that they don't harbor it's so amazing tasting.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 5 (45:42):
And that fundraiser was, you know, such a great cause
kind of hijacked by Tamaran.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Gretcher's there, yes, and Tamara hijacked my eye.

Speaker 5 (45:52):
Oh that was like the the the clause came out
on Gretchen on that one yelling at Tamras She's walking
out of the the bar. I was like, darn, that was.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, well, you know, Grutcher's Grutcher's it turns a little
bit into a more aggressive person when she has Slayd
with her. So it's like, you know, I don't I
have Shade with Shane with me. I gotta I gotta
take it down and Notch, I have to call him down.

Speaker 5 (46:18):
Shane's bringing me down.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
You have to behave so yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Okay, So let me ask you what would your dream
interview interview be? If you could interview anyone that you
probably interviewed everyone possible, But is there anyone on your
radar that you would love to chat with, dead or alive?

Speaker 5 (46:39):
You know, I used to want to interview OJ and
I wrote him for ten years in prison and he
called me right after he got out.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (46:48):
I answered the phone. I was on the way to
a shoot and it was an unknown number and I
was like hello. He's like, hey, Andrea, it's OJ. And
I'm like, oh, I was expect let me bowl over. Yeah.
He's like he's like, well, you know, thank you for
for your support. I'm like, no, no, no, no support.
I wrote you letters asking for an interview, right right, right,

(47:12):
wasn't you know supporting you?

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (47:14):
And so you know, I had asked him like if
you would do an interview, and then I was supposed
to go to his very he was staying in Vegas.
I was actually out there hosting the Sister Wives reunion.
Oh wow, okay, and uh that's our crossover Real Housewives
Sister Wives and right, and I was supposed to go
out there and then it just it just fell apart.

(47:36):
And then I never you.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Know, Emily had met OJ once in the past, Oh
did you Yeah, Well.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
You were with me.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
I know, we were in Vegas and we went to dinner.
Where did we go? It wasn't even anywhere on the strip.
We were like outside, like.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Some sushi restaurant off the side.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, And We just were sitting at a table and
then I turned around and O. J. Simpson was right
behind me.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
Well then and then we turned the other way and
it was a Hell's Angels, Yeah Angels Yes at another
table and.

Speaker 5 (48:05):
My daughter OJ called me another time and I was
in the shower and I never do this, Like my
phone rang and my daughter, who was so young at
the time, I like, I'm I don't know. She was
like ten, eleven, twelve something, and I never do this,
but I was like, hey, can you grab the phone?
Can you answer the phone?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (48:25):
She answered it, and she's like hello, and then she's like, Mommy,
it's someone named OJ on the phone. And then and
then so she she's in class and like fast forward
to high school and she's in class and they're talking
about O. J. Simpson and she's like, well, I actually
talked to him. And the teacher's like what, like, you
talked to OJA huh? And she's like, yeah, he called

(48:47):
my mom and I answered the phone. And then and
then she's like, wait, why was ogre you talking to
your mom? And she's like, well, my mom's on dateline
and she goes, your mom's on dateline?

Speaker 2 (48:58):
How did they not know that? How did they not
know you were Andrea Canning? How did they not know that?
I guess I.

Speaker 5 (49:04):
Really must not at that point if you haven't, like
you know, a bunch of my children in your school,
like you must really just not watch Dateline at all?

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Right, they or your kids are saying something else about you.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Yeah, I don't know what she works at build a
bear you know something?

Speaker 5 (49:22):
Yeah? Right?

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Right, yeah, Well.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Let me ask you, do your children did they Are
they proud that you're on TV? And like, did they
tell people? Because Annabell goes back and forth between my
mom's a housewife and then not wanting people to know
that I'm a housewife. But she's twelve, she's at that
that you know, tweet yeah, where like sometimes it's cool
and then other times she's mortified by it.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
So I think that.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
They they well, first of all, they don't watch Dateline.
Well that's good, which is a couple of them are
old enough to watch Dateline. And I'm a little offended
at times that they're like they watch these like of
are things. Yeah, I watched the Menanda's Brothers documentary. I'm like, really,
but you don't watch Dateline? Okay, Right, so yeah, so

(50:10):
they're like, whenever they complain if I'm gone on the
road too much or whatever, I'm like, well, do you
want me to quit my job? You're like, no, don't
put your job. So, you know, I think I think
overall they like it, and they think it's cool, and
they get to you know, go into the city sometimes
and go to the Today Show and you'll go on
set and see different things. And we shoot interviews here.

(50:31):
Sometimes at my house in the basement, we'll do remote.
If we're doing like a remote, we'll do it, you know, downstairs.
So they they've been around the world and like when
I say around the world, I mean the TV world world, right,
And you know, and I used to work for Good
Morning America for years, so they would they would always
come on the show. They'd be little guests for Halloween segments,

(50:51):
or they can here and makeup done in the makeup room.
And but I think it's been interesting for them, you know,
over the years to see how it all works.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
And yeah, okay, one last question, the Ellen Greenberg case.

Speaker 5 (51:04):
Oh oh, is that the sus the notice suicide?

Speaker 2 (51:08):
And yeah, yeah, do you have an opinion.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
On that shocking twist wasn't it like that?

Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (51:16):
Again, right, I I don't know like enough about it.
Only what I would say is common sense is how
do you stab yourself in like that many times in
behind your head, right, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (51:30):
I believe there were I don't remember exactly how many,
but there were multiple sabs on her chest, one very
deep sab that would ended up being the fatal wound,
and then some fellow ones in the back and then
maybe I mean, yeah, how does that happen?

Speaker 5 (51:44):
I'm not I'm not, you know, placing blame on anyone
here in any capacity. I just don't understand, Like, how
do you do that?

Speaker 2 (51:53):
That's yeah, Like you know, I don't know either.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
You know what It's one of those where you read
the headline and it's like, you know, you know, twenty
stab wounds ruled suicide and your takeaway is that sounds
absolutely impossible, right, Yeah, you know, once I dug into
it deeply because we did an we did an episode
on it. I'll tell you my I leaned a little
more towards suicide than I did.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
I did, Yeah, And I think what.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
It was for me, and this is just my opinion.
Most of the wounds were very very shallow hesitation wounds.
And that's what made me kind of tip more towards
suicide because I felt as if he murdered her, it
would have been in the heat of the moment and
it would have been a rage killing, and I don't
feel like there would have been all these hesitation wounds,

(52:39):
and so that's what that's what, you know, That was
my takeaway from it.

Speaker 5 (52:43):
Anyway, So I did this Sandred Birchmore case that aired
in September when you're going back into Karen Reid country. Yeah,
and that was they said that was a suicide. And
you know that she had hanged herself from the doorknob, yeah,
which I didn't even know that was a thing. By
the way, like I always think, you know in the movies,

(53:03):
you see someone from a door frame, not the door.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
Yeah, you know that.

Speaker 5 (53:08):
I don't know if you guys talked about that one.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
But we haven't. We haven't.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
The only thing I know is the name and that
it's connected to Karen Reid. I've had a lot of
fans reach out and say you need to take a
deep dive into that. It's it's on our list. Haven't
gone through it yet, but.

Speaker 5 (53:22):
Very disturbing, and it's so the the police officer, the
detective is has, you know, is behind bars right now.
He's been charged with Sandra Birchmore's murder and he I
don't believe any trial date has been set. He has
led not guilty. But you know, that's one where it's

(53:43):
like that went for years with the family saying like, no,
she did not take her own life. And finally the FBI, uh,
you know this, this chief from one of the police
departments involved, She ended up doing an internal affairs investigation
on this detective that Sander Birchmore was in a relationship with,

(54:06):
according to the police. And so she does has this
press conference and just puts it out there that she
alleges that he had been grooming Sandra Birchmore from this
Young Explorers program with the police department, and that they
started this sexual relationship when she was a teenager according
to the police. And then they end up she ends

(54:27):
up saying telling him I'm pregnant with your child. And
so then the really chilling part is he goes over
to her apartment, which he's confessed, he admitted, not confessed,
he's acknowledged he went over to an apartment and then
she ends up dead and then he goes in. His

(54:50):
wife delivers their third child within hours of him being
over at her apartment in a snowstorm. And so they
were like, he did it, he did it, he did it.
The family. And then finally the FBI they see this
press conference you know, by the chief and I'm sure
the other things that went into that, and they get

(55:10):
on the case and then he is he's charged by
the the US attorney. He was hauled into federal court,
and now he's awaiting trial. So I mean, that was
that's a really disturbing case. Sure, And then it came
out last point on that was that according to reports,

(55:31):
and we did report it in our show as well,
he didn't It's it turned out he wasn't even the
father of her baby.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Oh wow, So they did some DNA testing.

Speaker 5 (55:41):
Something they Yeah, so she had never delivered, she was pregnant,
but this whole thing, they said, the motive was the
baby and he didn't want, you know, And then it
turns out you know that in Israel.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
So yeah, well we're going to take a deep dive
into that at some point. But thank you for putting
that on my radar. I've had a lot of fans
reach out about that case. But Andrea, thank you so
much for coming on today onto Legally Brunette. I appreciate
it so much. We would love to have you back
sometime to talk about other cases because it's so fun
to chat with you, and so thank you so much
for joining us.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
I appreciate we want to have we want to have
you on Dateline True Crime Weekly.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Yes, I would love that.

Speaker 5 (56:19):
So we need to set that up. And if anyone
wants to follow my stories or know when they're on,
just go to my instagram Andrea Canning and you can
find out whenever things are airing.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah, so make sure you follow Andrea, make sure you
watch Dateline, and we look forward to your new Dateline
episode with the Crystal Rogers. And you're in the FBI
this week.

Speaker 5 (56:37):
It'll be this week. Yep.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Okay, that's great.

Speaker 5 (56:39):
I'm control.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Thanks, Andrea appreciate it. Thanks. Okay, guys, make sure you watch.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Andrea's report on Dateline this Friday on NBC. Check your
local listings for airtime, and also make sure you follow
Andrea Canning on her Instagram.