May 7, 2024 • 45 mins
Welcome to season 3 of Un-Addiction, as we dive deep into the importance of rest, taking time for yourself, and the pressures of being a high-performing Black girl, with Khadi Oluwatoyin. Khadi is the founder of Sober Black Girls Club (SBGC), a 501(c)(3) collective that provides resources and support to Black girls, women, femmes, and non-binary folks practicing sobriety, in recovery, or considering it. Sober Black Girls Club was born from Khadi's need for connection with other Black girls seeking support with addiction. Khadi takes us through the complexities of being a high-performing Black girl, taking breaks while being in service, and what to do when what you need is not what you want.
Find Sober Black Girls Club: IG: @soberblackgirlsclub
Find meetings, mentors, community, and more: https://linktr.ee/SoberBlackGirlsClub
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If you or a loved one are experiencing addiction, have questions about recovery, or need treatment tailored to you, visit eleanorhealth.com
Dr. Nzinga Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is out now! Order here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/
Find Nzinga on Threads and X (Twitter): @nzingamd / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzingaharrisonmd/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned,
six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is
now available from Union Squaring Company or wherever books are sold. Hey, y'all,
(00:49):
welcome to Unaddictioned Podcast. I am thrilled this episode to
be talking to Kadija Ola Watoyan, who affectionately goes by
Katie's Attorney and recovery from Alcohol Use disorder. Born and
raised in New York City, now living in Tulsa, and
founder of Sober Black Girls Club. We spend so much
(01:11):
time talking about how she came to found Sober Black
Girls Club and why, and I really appreciate how we
landed on her final words of wisdom for Black girls
and black women, specifically about the importance of rest and
unlearning the idea that productivity defines our value and the
(01:34):
risk of always being productive to our health. So this
was just an incredible conversation. Let's get into it. We're
on the record. So welcome to the Unaddictioned Podcast. So
excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I'm
so happy to be here. Yeah, I'm just happy to
be you.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
When I got your invitation that they had to say yes, yes, yes,
because having conversations with other black women about addiction as
a abuse, et cetera is important. So I was just
so excited to be invited.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Thank you, Yes, thank you. So we started this podcast
to bring awareness to my book that came out January
ninth called Unaddictioned Six mind Changing Conversations, Thank you that
could change a life. Exactly like you said, we have
to be talking about this, and I think specifically for
Black people, specifically for Black women. Whereas we have lower
(02:29):
rates of addiction than other races and ethnicities, when we
develop addiction, the consequences fall on us more quickly, more severely,
and these illnesses kill us at higher rates, and so like,
genuinely we have to be having these conversations to save life.
So I'm just going to ask you to tell us
(02:51):
who you are, what your journey has been, what your
passions are, and I'll tell you. The book aims to
help people figure out their own individual magic formula, and
the podcast I'm hoping people can hear themselves in the
conversations and say, maybe that part fits into my own formula.
(03:14):
So can you just tell us who you are?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes? I love that. So, yes, my name is Katie Eloatoyan.
As they get older, I found myself going more by
my full name, and it's you know, the first day Ramadan,
so Ramadama bar for anyone who's who's practicing. My full
name is Khadija, our first name, but folks do call
me Katie. I'm from Staten Island, New York, so east
(03:38):
coast definitely goes, even though I wouldn't was that there
right now what we state Island New York had pretty
much at that time thinking I had an average childhood
until like years later like oh well nope, that's that average.
A shrauma, Java drama, but blowing up. You know, I
was really confident, go get a child, you know, really smart.
(03:59):
I could talk my wise gymnastics. You know, I started
working since I was fourteen. I was always like an
I don't want to say an overachiever. I just excelled
in the things that made me feel, made me feel happy,
or that I proceed to be important. When it was
time to go with always to college, I made sure
to go somewhere as far as away as possible from
(04:22):
my parents. So like the farthest place I could go
in New York will stay within the New York State
school system for education was Buffalo. So you know, when
it was time to go, I went to Buffalo Stay.
And I remember the first day that my well, the
first day being there, my dad and my brother dropped
me off. And as soon as they like left to
head back down state to New York City, like, I
(04:45):
had gotten a knock on my door and it was
a member of a fraternity and he was like, hey,
do you want to hang out? And I was just
like sure. So later on that day, later on that
day in the evening time, you know, he introduced me
to my first drink, and from there on I was like, oh,
my gosh, this it was just so magical, It felt
so great, it felt amazing. I kind of skipped my
(05:08):
religious background, so I grew up, you know, in a
Muslim home to Nigerian parents, so there was no alcohol
in the household. I used to say initially when I
first started to like have these conversations on a broader platform,
I used to say, like, I didn't know anyone who
drank when I was younger, But that's not true. I
just didn't. Alcohol just wasn't in my mind and I
(05:28):
didn't care for it. I didn't like really, I just
didn't put two and two together. Right. In hindsight, I
realized that I actually went to school with someone who
would constantly come to.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
School drunk, like high school, middle school, elementary school, high school.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
High school with vodka her bottle. And I my head,
you're crazy, like this is just like what you do
being just mental, So that's this is give me an
idea and I just stop there and not trying to
put this person's business on fut street. But yeah, I
realized later on, like, oh wow, this person was suffering
from addiction in front of me, and no one did
anything but like judge her, including myself and put her
(06:04):
to the side anyway. So throughout undergrad you know, I
will say that the first time I started drinking A
was always magic for me. It helped me get out
of my body. So I'd be very clear. I didn't
develop an addiction until two thousand and let's say eighteen,
But from like twenty and thirteen, I believe that's when
I started. Don't quote no. So that was not don't
(06:25):
quote me.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But years what's before I would like to quote Katie
it was twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I'm just kidding, go ahead, I get confuse it like
my law school day that grad I just I think
it's like two thousand. I don't even know.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
No, I do the same thing. I'm like, I graduated
in medical I graduated medical school in ninety eight. It's like, no, No,
you graduated college in ninety eight.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, so I'll just say this for the next four years.
I'll say this. My drinking was always problematic because I
used it to escape. I used it to literally check out.
I didn't drink to socialize. I drank to the point
where I was not going to remember what happened or
I was just an out of body experience and for
the next four years, it was okay, does everyone drink really,
(07:09):
you know, drink and appropriately. And I was going to school,
you know, I was part of sorority. I DoD a
government body and was an assistant. Like I am checking
out I'm checking out boxes, I'm doing what I had
to do. So it wasn't a big deal when it
was time for me to like when it was time
to graduate, I was trying to figure out what I
wanted to do. And I think it was like the
(07:30):
death of Trey m and Martin rest in peace and
and and the fact that I liked a challenge, and
I felt like law school was going to be that
that scenario where I can be challenged. But I never
I didn't grow up wanting to be a lawyer. In fact,
when I went to college, I went to study communications
and theater, and I remember like that's what I applied
(07:52):
for to get in. And I remember like the first
day of school, I'm just like this is just so easy.
And that's still child like the mindset I had of
just always feeling like I had I couldn't be myself.
I had to be I had to be or do
more like ignoring my own interests for what I thought
would bring me like you know, you know, glory and
(08:14):
and and just occolades and and a lot of appreciations.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It would make you good enough.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yes, yes, so yeah, So it was a passing shiamarin
and then just me thinking like okay, if I have
a lot of degree, no one could tell me nothing.
And I went to and I went to law school
without without thought, like literally graduated, applied, got in and
you know, law school and the legal practice is a
(08:42):
field of just not just, but includes more drinking. It
glorifies drinking, It rewards us, It rewards our hard work
drinking and to fit in yes, yes, just like college. Yes,
and so yeah the next three years again drink. But
I excelled in school, I selled in like extracurricular activities.
(09:04):
I excelled in my in work. However, I was drinking
at an abnormal rate. And one of the indicators that
like my body was trying to tell me that this
is the problem and I did not even know. And
it's so funny how we're now in Ramadan. I will
say in my second year, I had an internship. And
(09:25):
in this internship, it's really common for law students to
work intern during the summer and you want to a
nice firm get a big pay chat. So I'm working
at a firm getting an enormous amount of money that
I've never even was able to have my hand up on, right,
So I'm living life. The firm is treating or rewarding
(09:46):
me constantly with like dinners and cocktail hours. So I'm drinking.
I'm having fun. So at that time in my life,
I always told myself when Ramadan came, I would not
drink because it's it's anyways definitely not in this holy month. Yeah,
and I remember the first day that I, like within
(10:08):
that summer that I didn't drink because I was observing
yamadad my body started itching like ridiculously. Yeah, I thought
spiders falling on me.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Oh so you had delirium tremens the DTS.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Can you believe that no one knew? I want to
I had to leave my internship early.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Wow. I'm glad you didn't die, Katie, because sorry, let
me be a doctor will kick quick and drop a statistic.
One in five people that developed the DTS and doesn't
get detoxed dies. It is like literally a life threatening condition.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
When I tell you I went to doctor, doctor, doctor doctor.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
They couldn't see it. They couldn't even begin to consider
it because you're a high performing attorney. Y'all cannot see
our faces. But me and Katie are giving each other
the black girl eyeballs like this is but that's what
it is.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Right, almost was my life, And I always say that
at that time I was able to stop. I went
through Ramadad without drinking. So I still feel like I
had an addiction, clearly, like my body was saying, what,
you know, you need to stop drinking. I imagine, Sorry,
y'all'm observing Ramadad to our kids of water.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
By the way, Ramadan moved bark. Is that what I say?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yes, thank you so much. So, you know, I just
always think that what if they just told Like if
someone told me that this is what was happening and
you needed to stop drinking, you needed to stop. No
one told me anything. So I went back to school
in the following fall, picked up my drinking habit, and
(11:44):
it wasn't until I graduated out in this year. By
saying it wasn't until I graduated, you know, I had
the apartment of my dreams, car and attorney. You have
a job. You know, I did exceptionally well on the bar,
but internally I was a mess. I was not happy
and I didn't know why. I didn't know why I
was unhappy. I didn't know why I was sad. But
the only at that time I had no idea or
(12:04):
concept of like hoping mechanisms and trauma and A B
and C and this and that. So I did what
I need to do, which was drink. Yeah, that's what
I need to do.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I drank the solution until it's the problem and so.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So yeah, yeah, I drank. And it was when a
therapist said, you know, maybe two years later, it happened
really quickly when she said, I think you're like you
have an addiction. And I just was looking at her
like you're crazy. I do not have an addiction. Didn't
know what addiction it was, didn't even know black people
could be addicted to anything, didn't know. I just was
(12:39):
just in the wind and I literally left her office.
Didn't see her a year later when I finally was
able to admit, oh, I think alcohol is at the
root of a lot of the external problems. So because
back when you're drinking, problems arise, you get get fired,
you don't go show up to work, you get to arguments,
(13:00):
use relationships, and I was experiencing all of that, and
she was telling me like, we can't get to the
root of why how we got here, but you need
to stop drinking, Like that's ting on more problems.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And wasn't Katie, was it one thing a year later
that really kind of made you say, let me take
a look at this, or was oh, if you will
share it with us.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I mean, I'm very honest. I realize so some things
I think, like where you're going through an addiction, you
blame a lot of things of the addiction that and
you realize, Okay, that's just not for me. So I
just couldn't work. I just did. I had no motivations
and get up and go to work. And I think
at that time, like a second two year attorney, like
going through like three firms, that's that's a problem. Yeah,
(13:45):
and putting myself in like Missy situations where I wasn't
where you know, I constantly had to go to the doctor,
my doctors. Why would you want I was getting sick?
Am She was like why, Like you can only see
me really once or twice a year, getting this is
getting ridiculous. So it was just honestly like in cumulation
of things. But I think that once I couldn't afford
my apartment anymore and I had to move back to
(14:07):
my parents house. Yeah, that's what it was. I was like,
I have to get my life together.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
I want to put that right next to So the
book is divided into six chapters, and it has this
idea that addiction develops for biological, psychological, and environmental reasons,
and you're born into some of those right, So biologically
you're born into a genetic risk risk. Psychologically you have
your childhood experiences. And so I love what you said
(14:38):
when you started. You were like, I thought I had
the average childhood and you said, but no trauma, trauma, trauma,
And unfortunately those two are not mutually exclusive, like average
childhood and trauma trauma, trauma. A lot of people don't
realize what they experienced as kids or trauma, and that's
setting them up. And then environmentally is like the home
environment for yours, like Nigerian Muslim home for example. But
(15:02):
then these repeat again throughout our lives. So biologically, when
we develop illnesses get prescribed in medication something like that.
Psychologically needing to be good enough for you environmentally is culture. Right,
So that college drinking culture and then that law firm
drinking culture. But what really stood out to me that
(15:24):
you said just now and so your experience is just
falling into the framework like lock and step. You said,
when I went away to college, I went to the
furthest away from home that I could possibly go without
being in Canada. Right, you were like, oh, and all
the way to the top of New York. And then
(15:47):
what led you to say this alcohol may be an
addiction is when you had to come back home.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right, that's a full circle. Okay, so you come back
home and keep bringing us forward to your recovery journey.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Now that's I didn't have an even I never even
thought about it like that. So yeah, thank you for
like definitely that insight. Yeah. I remember like moving back
into my parents home and I was like, Okay, no,
I'm gonna go to I'm gonna check into a rehab
because you know, my parents are family, They're doing the
best they can. But what I realized that I had
(16:26):
to do a whole complete belief system, switch thinking switch
value switch that wasn't aligned, that is not aligned with
how my parents were raised, how what they find important, right,
So and I think somebodyn't know that, so I but
I just do, like, Okay, I had to go. I
needed some way to stay, and I went to rehab,
(16:48):
and even though I had moved back into my parents' house,
but I needed And I remember being a rehab and
being the only black girl at the rehab and thinking
to myself, oh, I'm not like these people. These people
they have been in and out for years. They you know,
(17:08):
don't have the level of education I have. Again being
just mental, they have problems. I'm okay, I'm not that bad.
So and honestly, while I was in the rehab, like
you know, they were like med students. I think they
were doing the residencies and like my doctor would invite
me to sit in like to use me as amused.
So honestly, I'm getting like good treatment in the here too.
(17:30):
I'm not really feeling like I have a problem. Yeah,
And throughout three rehab, like the workers, employees and doctors
and therapists and this and that kept on just telling
me that I can bounce back. I'm not like too
far gone. So again I'm not really understanding the gravity
of my situation. And it's even like just even till today,
(17:53):
I can be suffering, like I can literally tell you
I'm not well, not you, but this is my life.
I can be like, I am not okay, I'm on
a verge of a relapse, a slipt, and people would
be like, but Katie, you you know you just so
well to right, It's like, right, do you want me
to walk out? Like what do you want me to do?
(18:14):
What do you want me to? Like? What? What? So
I left that rehab I think I did like many
thirty days because it was like the talks and reap
when I tell you how that same bit I went
back to drinking.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, I want you know what, Katie. So in season one,
we spoke to Phil Rutherford, who also I think was
having trouble with drinking. He said the same thing, he
didn't know that one addiction that black people had addictions
other than like crack. That's like all you see, right,
It's like black people are in crack cocaine. So if
(18:46):
it ain't crack cocaine, it's cool. But like alcoholism though,
and then also that there's anything for us you went
to that Rehabbyer the only black face there, and he
was like, what really made a difference for him? I
hope people will go back and listen to his episod.
So somebody brought him into an AA meeting for black
men and it was life changing. Two. You're like, I
(19:09):
can tell you I am critically in danger for a
relapse today. But because you are not homeless, because you
are not jobless, because you are not living in the street,
because you are not begging, because you are not dirty.
People's concept of what addiction looks like is keeping us
from getting healthy. It's the same thing when you had
(19:30):
that withdrawal as a lawyer to that stop that doctor
from being able to see it. It is so, so,
so critically important that we understand, yes, black people, highly
performing like us are addicted to things and there is
help for us. And this is what I love about
sober black girls. I know we're going to get to
(19:52):
it and there's a community for us.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Well that's so real. So yeah, I left, We had
went back to drinking. There was an incident maybe I
think I left. We had like in February and in
July there was an incident with like me and a
family member and I really realized how much Apple played
(20:15):
a role in that, and I needed to stop drinking.
But at that time, I literally couldn't stop drinking, Like
I could not stop drinking. And I wasn't drinking all
the time every day, but maybe every other day I
needed to drink. And I don't know at the time,
but I had a bunch of like inflammation issues, stomach issues.
(20:36):
I honestly, I was diagnosed with vitis maybe a year ago,
and I honestly do I feel like it's there's a
connection between that and like my drinking, even though the
doctor there's no connection, like whatever, because I was so
inflamed when I was drinking, not not like just red
and big and bloated. So that's when I decided to
(20:56):
get sober or decided to emboculate join like that's why
I accepted I had a drinking problem, except that I
needed help. And I remember the first twelve SEP meeting
I did go to. I remember well, no, I looked
on line. I remember looking online and at that time,
the recovery sobriety community was nothing like how it is today.
And I'm definitely going to I'm definitely going to. I
(21:18):
don't say tried it touble backo stuff for that. I
remember being online like twos and stuff at eighteen, trying
to get help, and a lot of folks were like
just talking about their sobriety was like you know, coffee
and yoga. They were like, it was just they weren't
being real about their experience. They were not being real
about their experiences that folks thought like only the rooms
(21:41):
were for that, right, So I couldn't really relate. There
were other pro there were other girl groups of sobriety groups,
but I could not relate to anything that they were
talking about. Why do you say anything? But I couldn't
relate to most of the things they were talking about.
And then the pictures that they would use on Instagram
or Twitter didn't show girls that looked like.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
We're never you yep.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So that was one.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
So how can you see yourself and how can you
hear yourself when your face is not being shown and
your story is not being told exactly? Yep?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
So that was one aspect. And then I went to
a top Step meeting and I remember like in my city,
the city that was living in, there were hardly any
twelve Step meetings I had to take, like because I
that's mine have a car anymore, Like I'm down back. Yeah,
I had to take two buses to get to like
the twelve step meeting that I attended, and I remember,
(22:33):
like I remember doing it for a while, but a
lot of the things that I hurt and I do,
like even today, if I need a meeting, if SPGC
is the hosting meeting, I need a mean, I'll go.
A lot of SPGC members are twelve steppers, because I
think the program for the most part, I don't think
any program as a hundred pet era free, but I
think the program for the most part does I think
(22:54):
any program that telling people stay sober it is going
it works right and whatever capacity. So I wanted to
put that out there because I know how sometimes you
saw suppers get But I remember like going to this
twelve step meeting and again being like one of the
only black people there, and then it was just a
lot of like bragging a competition. It just it felt
like this is not what I needed. And now this
(23:15):
time I didn't know what I needed, but I know
that this wasn't what I needed. It was a lot like, yeah,
you gotta get somewhere so you can get your house again.
You know, like everyone is like robbing about how much
money I make, several figures I make this and that.
I remember a speaker meeting I attended where the speaker
was like basically describing her addiction and she was she
(23:35):
said something to the effect of, you know, this is
one of the worst times of my life. I was
living in this neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
This ain't that's the neighborhood you live in.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I was like, what is well with my neighborhood? Besides,
it's just not this bow I live in is very divided.
So this is Shore north Shore. Yeah, what is we're
living in that neighbor Besides, it's just not feel of
white people. Are you in your mind? Like I was
so mind. I was like, I just didn't understand what
she meant by that. Besides that they were just black
(24:05):
people in that neighborhood and that was the lack of
comunity attendant for them. I'm just like, yeah, this is
just not you know, let's be clear, I was still relapsing,
not blaming my relaps on that on that I was
just in the throes of addiction. But I knew that
that wasn't helping. Yeah, and that's when I decided to
intend outpatient and increase to a Blackos club. And in
(24:26):
the beginning, So Black Oos Club was just a blog
where I was documenting my experiences in addiction. And I'm
still relapsing, but I can still write, but I can
write about my relapse. A lot of folks get surprised
when they hear that, Like I was still an addiction
at that time.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I'm like, uh, yeah, read the blog right, Yeah, we're
honest about your experiences you were having.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I was still an addiction. And then like in
twenty twenty, and I was still and I don't want
to say, Look, it wasn't like the height of my addiction.
Like now I have like three months ober and then
I'll re left. So we and they have another dree men.
So I'm doing better, but to me it's still I
know I shouldn't be drinking, and the fact that I
am drinking, it's to me it's still an addiction. So
there's levels to everything. But even in twenty twenty, when
(25:11):
when so the Bacus Club became a collective and so
Blacking Club became a collective because folks in the pandemic,
they realized that they're drinking patterns or habits had taken
a turn. And also a lot of folks were in
a space now where they candid now and they've always
had a drinking problem, you know, when you're in the
(25:32):
throws of life. They were able to just keep on
performing and doing so, you know, they didn't have space,
so the opportunity to address it. So it was until
twenty twenty, during the height of the pandemic that you know,
other black girls were searching on Google, you know, black support,
and then they found for the Blacks Club and we
started meeting once a week on Thursdays and we've been
(25:54):
you know, we've just grown from there. Now we're not
a profit organization, but that's how the Blackness Club came up.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, So what I love about your story is one
it's so accessible. I think it was Dave and the
dopey episode that was also very young. The first time
he went to rehab and he said the same thing
you said. He was like, the worst thing they said
to me was you'll be fine. What they really need
to say to me is like this can kill you,
(26:20):
and you are young, so you have a lot of
opportunity to save yourself. But it's going to be hard
work to save yourself. And so similarly, Katie, like you said,
they were telling you like, oh, you're gonna be fine.
They made it seem like not a serious, life threatening
illness that you have. And then you were like, I
don't know what I needed at that moment, but I
knew this twelve step meeting was not what I needed.
(26:43):
And I think so often for people with addiction, we
don't trust them to know what they need, and we
have to trust them to know this is what I
don't need, Like this is not helping me, this is
hurting me. And because we don't create a way for
people to safely say I'm going to try something else,
(27:04):
then you just we make you think this is the
only thing. So if that's not it, there's nothing right.
And luckily you didn't take that there's nothing. You were like,
let me find a way that works for me, and
you created this blog which was really for yourself and
now has turned into for so many black girls getting sober.
Last thing I'll say that I absolutely love. I'm like
(27:26):
hardcore militant harm reduction approach, and so this concept that
you have to be completely abstinent or you're not making
a difference is wrong. For people with severe alcohol use disorder,
complete abstinence most likely is the right recommendation. But does
it matter that you cut down from drinking every single
(27:48):
day to drinking every other day? Yes it matters. Does
it matter you were making so much effort to make
that change, Yes it matters. Does it matter that you
were able to put together three months, Yes matters, And
we rob people of those successes, and I think it
poisons the recovery process for people. So I just wanted
(28:09):
to pull out all of those elements of your story
that I think are so like people will hear that
in their own experience. I want them to hear that.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, for sure. And I you know what I realized.
I realized that like no one knows what goes, No
one knows what's going on in our household, right, So
I think that like when sobriety recovery, sobriety social media
just took off, maybe in twenty twenty. I think like
during the pandemic, it's when it kind of took off,
and you know, there were a lot of folks trying
(28:37):
to now become sobriety influencers, which I need for an influencer.
But I get it. I get that this is like
a niche that people can tap into. And you know,
they were at a time where like people influencers were passing
away from like overdoses and relapses, and it's like being
(28:58):
on social media portraying one thing, which is they're right.
I get it, like I get it, but they're not
feeling safe or I don't know what they're not what
they're feeling or not feeling, but just not being in
a space where they're letting us they need help or
they relapse or they just I'm sorry. I don't think
relips has to be a part of everyone's story, but
it's a part of most people's story, especially now in
today's today's world where people are struggling from a post
(29:20):
pinion I shouldn't say post pandemic, but you get like
a post quarantine world. You know, the economy, just mental
health overall has to die. Relapse and slips are a
part of a lot of stories. And I don't say
that to enforce or encourage it, but I'm just like,
you have to be real. No one would know what
I'm going for unless I like literally no one would
(29:41):
know I have a slip or relapse unless I tell them,
how are you going to? Don't live in my apartment?
You don't live with me. So I think that like, yeah,
I mean, I guess we can go. We could go
and move through the world pretending that people do not relapse.
People and you do not relapse or have slips. But
just as a myself, as an individual, and as a
(30:01):
person who works with so many you know, a whole club,
and then in the Swakabi community, having talks with people
like you, doctors like you, like you, and then in
conferences I know a lot of people do, especially in
the beginning, do relapse. They do have slips. Hopefully they're
able to learn from it. But I think pretending that
(30:22):
like it's uh, you know, make it a declaration that
you want to get sober, and then you just all
it gets sober, It's like, Okay, that's not it's not realistic.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
It is also dangerous. Okay. So I'm gonna go doctory
and drop a couple of stats again. First step I'm
gonna drop is seventy five percent of people with addiction recover.
This is massively important. That means it is not just possible,
it is probable okay, three out of four people. The
next statistic is, in the first year of trying to
(30:51):
get sober, as much as fifty five percent of people
experience and relapse of that illness. That's more than half, right,
So we cannot make people think they are the only
ones experiencing a slip or a relapse of this illness,
because that makes people keep it a secret. And the
(31:11):
reason it's because we value people who are sober, but
we don't value people who are in active addiction. And
that's a trash approach, right, Like, we have to value
people no matter what stage their illness is in. And
if we can let people know we value them. And
the safer thing to do is to let somebody know
when you slip or if your illness relapses, so that
(31:32):
it doesn't turn back into stage four. I'm going to
use a cancer metaphor here. It's just as dangerous as
pretending that breast cancer doesn't relapse. It's just as dangerous
as pretending that lung cancer doesn't relapse, because yes they do,
and no, we don't want it for you. And so
we do everything we know possible that decreases the chance
(31:54):
of that relapse. But we also surveil. We have you
doing your monthly breast exams, have you doing your mammogram
every six months instead of every year. We have you
doing your colonoscupy every five years instead of every ten. Right, Like,
let's not pretend. Let's be real about what we know
about the course of this illness and maximally equip people
(32:15):
to keep themselves safe. Part of that is being able
to say I drink.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, that is so real. Yeah, because that's so real
for a number of reasons. One the success of a
Blaco's club, not only as a club, but like members
saying like, hey, they have two years sober, three years sober,
and thanking me for a freedom club. I freedo this
club when I was still an addiction. So again it's
like what you're saying is so true, Like you can't
(32:41):
discount people just because they are currently in an addiction
or don't have that many years that folks will deem worthy.
But I would say, like one of the downsides for
me is that, like, you know, starting sober Blacos club
and I feel like my addiction, like what I knew
I had an addiction, It all just happened so fast,
(33:04):
and it happened really really fast when like again, my
dreging was always problematic, but from it being an addiction
where I couldn't stop drinking to getting my own help,
like you know, recovering from myself and then being thrown
into service, it really truly did happen fast. So there's
some people that I sort of tell a Blackco's Club
(33:24):
with who when I mean I started with like they
were first meeting attendees and they have more years than me.
Because I was not taking care of my of my recovery,
of my sobriety, you know, it just hit me. You know,
I was having a really challenging time. You know, that's
where we had to be scheduled. One of our members
passed away, and it really hit me and hit me
(33:46):
in a way that it's just it's just weird, like
when you're you're on the sobriety journey, this recovery journey.
So the Blacks Club, you know, the age ranges from
like let's say, like twenties to like sixties, and yeah,
we do have younger folks and all the folks, but
that's that's like a range of folks meetings who say
their ages. So it's just you know, it was just
so hurtful. This person. I'm never going to see them
(34:07):
online anymore. And this is a person that really, you know,
made it two years sober, really was trying to you know,
even though I felt like she was doing so great,
she was always trying to do better and trying to
improve it. I think it's something that a lot of
black girls like, you know, it's just like you're not
drinking anymore, like you could say you're red and I know,
(34:31):
like we shouldn't settle there, but I feel like for
a lot of folk, and again look at me, like,
I just feel like, you know, for a lot of us,
it's like that's not enough, not but it is something.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
It's not everything, but it is something, and we tend
to discount it as nothing.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yes, right, yes, So it wasn't until recently with like
my therapist and I was just telling her like, oh,
I'm struggling like really bad, like really badly, and she
like out, She's like, Kadie, it'sn't someone you've ever had
time to just focus on yourself, focused on your mental
health without like constantly being thrown into work into work,
(35:11):
and even though service like you know, services service it's
still work. And she put it in my head about
like taking a sabbatical at the end of the year.
I'm just well, because you know, we have a lot
of things coming up, and I'm like, sabbatic goal, Like
I'm not a clergyman. But then she's like, no, she
made sense of it for me. She's like, no, So
backs Club is your ministry and you have been doing
this work since you were an addiction and say, I
(35:34):
guess I want to stay with people my relapse and
we're talking about slips and we're talking about how you
can still be addictionate and help people. And I do
agree with that, agree with that, I believe in that.
But she when it comes to my story, when it
comes to our member's story who just passed away, Kelly,
but it is important, like you said, when you are
having those challenging moments to let people know and then
(35:58):
get the help that you need. And even like the
help may not be what you wanted to be, Like,
I don't w anyone tell me you have to like
take up two months of battle goal. But the truth is,
the more I say that out loud, the more I
share with my friends, and like you, I'm like Oh,
I do need that. Actually I need a.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Well listen, I'll tell you I'm being psychiatric here. So
as psychiatrists, we listen to the things that people don't say,
and the order kind of like the thoughts that you
put next to each other. So you said, I don't
even know how we got on this. We got on
this because we were talking about it being safe to
say when you need help. And then you talked about
(36:37):
your friend who died, which is an unspoken connection there
that like maybe she needed some sort of help even
though she was doing great and everything, you know, like
she needed some sort of help. And then you drew
an unspoken connection there to your therapist telling you need
a sabbatical, and it sounds like you're working your way through.
(36:57):
But what I'm hearing from you, Katie, and it's it's interesting.
I'm going to tell you about this other influencer that
is I'll tell you what the threat of connection is is.
I was going to ask you what is your magic
formula for staying sober? And you started to answer it
a little bit, and it sounds like what you're learning
is that part of what you may need to add
to your formula is space for yourself for sure, right,
(37:20):
it's space for yourself. So my son is seventeen. He's
an avid trampoline guy. He literally goes to Skyzone every
single day of the week. He's like taught himself all
this stuff is funny. He's senior in high school. But
so he follows this diver influencer on social media. She's
an extreme high diver, so she dives from like I
don't even know how know how high this platform is,
(37:41):
but it's so high that you cannot go in the
water head first. You go in the water feet first
from your dives because it's so high. And he was
showing me her Instagram feed the other day and it
said I am taking it didn't say Sabbattlekle, I'm taking
a break. For two straight years, I have been diving
and posting every single day, and for my mental health
(38:04):
and my physical health, I need to take a break.
And then two days later, this podcast or Norah macan Ernie,
I love her. Her podcast is terrible. Thanks for asking,
I'm taking a break, right. And so service is beautiful
and it fills our cups. It is also pouring out
of your cup. And I think people more than understand
(38:27):
when you need to take a break. So I just
want to validate you and I want to encourage you,
whether it's a two month sabbatical or some other strategy.
What your unconscious mind just told me is that you
need to create some space for.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Cakes and fire, and I work moved towards that. Like
we got a board. You know, we have a new
board of very skilled people, so I'm hoping by the
end of the year they can you know, take off.
You know, they understand the ways and the lands or
SBGC because you know, we host meetings just you know,
anyone looking for the support that meets a little c plug.
(39:03):
We host four support meetings on Wednesday. We're working with
a recovered man in Kenya who hosts men's meeting and
community meetings for anyone regardless of their gender. And the
other meetings. We have a queer meeting where we have
two meetings to specifically excuse me, for black girls and
black women. You know, we have our mentorship program. We
(39:26):
have a mentorship program. We do in person events. You know,
we have a Facebook group of about six one point
five thousand members I think maybe one point six on
social media. We have a blog, we have a podcast,
our newsletter. So there's a lot of support out there
for folks. I think, like you said, Nick, sorry, I
(39:47):
want to call you to.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Go are you an Joan?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
No? All right, sorry, So there's a lot of support
there and I just want people to know that again,
I just get always inspired for so just like you know,
SBGC SPGC saved their lives that they wouldn't even have
like for and from days if it wasn't for the club.
And it's so you know, it's a it's a lot
(40:10):
for me to hear. It's a lot because it's like
I get it, and I think, yeah, I'm just under
there by saying yeah, yeah. But I wanted to thank
you for your previous comments because I swear like I
not my experiences with like therapists, especially during my addiction
when I couldn't afford to pay for private therapy, if
(40:34):
that makes sense, so I would have to like be
with the thought. And I don't think that really matters,
but I think it sometimes in my experience it does.
Like I'm able to just say stuff and and now
me and my rapists are just chatting about what we
did on Saturday, like we're just laughing and I'm able,
and I don't know if you want to call it
the New Yorker me, if you want to call it
(40:55):
the lawyer and me, I'm able to say things. But
in a way we're people just really are not picking
up what I'm saying and just gate through. And I've
always said that, like, you know, that's another thing, reflexible,
Bible's club, our values of fearness and equity. When people
are like, you know, you don't need money to recover,
I'm like, are you out of your mind? Yes? You do?
Like you know what I mean? Like, I can definitely
(41:17):
tell the difference. And I don't want to say it's
the education. I really don't. I think that, like, you know,
the therapists that I was worth seeing, counselors I was
seeing while I was in an addiction, they had so
many clients and so many patients, and so I don't
think it's the education level, but there is something. And
I recognize the difference of what I'm paying a therapist
one hundred and fifty dollars a session in comparison to
(41:40):
you know, State Randal, state the government led it's a different.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, it's the system, and it's the time that's available
to connect with people. It's a real thing, and I
hate that for us.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I hate that, like I do hate, I really just
it just breaks my heart. So I think that to say,
I feel like I've been rambling and again I haven't
been able to eat or deep water.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
But you have not been rambling. You have not been rambling.
This has been beautiful. It is over. That's how time
flies when you're like dropping knowledge on people. So let
me ask you this last question, Katie. First of all,
thank you so much for coming on here. This is incredible.
I would love to figure out a way to magnify
(42:26):
sober black girl clubs work. Let's just figure out how
we do that. But this is a question I ask everybody.
I try to remember to give people heads up at
the beginning. I did not give you a heads up,
so you's gonna have to go off the dome. The
name of the book is Unaddiction. It is undoing what
we think we know about addiction that's hurting people. Oh sorry, unlearning,
unlearning what we think we know, undoing the stigma that
(42:48):
is killing people, and uncovering the conversations that we need
to have to make a difference. So your parting words.
If there's just one thing and I want to talk
scifically to black girls and black women, if there is
one thing that you want black girls and black women
to unlearn, undo or conversation to uncover, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
I think we need to unlearn the practice of doing,
of producing, of exerting. I truly think it's killing us,
like when I was slapped on these last couple of months.
It's killing us. Yeah, feeling like we're not enough even
when we have overcome some of the worst possible things.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah, I want you to play that back for yourself, Okay, Katie, Yeah, Yeah,
you are enough. You are doing enough. You have done enough.
I followed the NAT Ministry on Instagram. I don't know
if you know it is. Their tagline is rest is Revolutionary.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, we're reading that book in our Tuesday cersover meeting
that one of our members, Pastcilla. I think she's a
therapist as well or counselor. She hosts that meeting. So yeah,
we're currently reading that book right now our Tuesday meeting.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Thank you. I heard your tears, which is how I
know you felt it so deeply. I felt I felt
it for you, and so I know that you need
some rest. Yeah, thank you for coming on here. All right,
y'all check out Sober Black Girls Club as you can hear.
Katie is amazing and has created this community which I'm
(44:29):
super proud of. So okay, let's not let this be
the last time. Let's stay connected for sure. Thank you,
Thank you so much for tuning in. And if you
like this episode, please check out my book on addiction,
Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available
at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
(44:54):
and wherever books are sold. If you liked this episode,
please share it with someone think may need to hear it. Also,
please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star
review that helps us reach any and everyone who may
be looking for support in the face of addiction.
Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned,
six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is
now available from Union Squaring Company or wherever books are sold. Hey, y'all,
(00:49):
welcome to Unaddictioned Podcast. I am thrilled this episode to
be talking to Kadija Ola Watoyan, who affectionately goes by
Katie's Attorney and recovery from Alcohol Use disorder. Born and
raised in New York City, now living in Tulsa, and
founder of Sober Black Girls Club. We spend so much
(01:11):
time talking about how she came to found Sober Black
Girls Club and why, and I really appreciate how we
landed on her final words of wisdom for Black girls
and black women, specifically about the importance of rest and
unlearning the idea that productivity defines our value and the
(01:34):
risk of always being productive to our health. So this
was just an incredible conversation. Let's get into it. We're
on the record. So welcome to the Unaddictioned Podcast. So
excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I'm
so happy to be here. Yeah, I'm just happy to
be you.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
When I got your invitation that they had to say yes, yes, yes,
because having conversations with other black women about addiction as
a abuse, et cetera is important. So I was just
so excited to be invited.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Thank you, Yes, thank you. So we started this podcast
to bring awareness to my book that came out January
ninth called Unaddictioned Six mind Changing Conversations, Thank you that
could change a life. Exactly like you said, we have
to be talking about this, and I think specifically for
Black people, specifically for Black women. Whereas we have lower
(02:29):
rates of addiction than other races and ethnicities, when we
develop addiction, the consequences fall on us more quickly, more severely,
and these illnesses kill us at higher rates, and so like,
genuinely we have to be having these conversations to save life.
So I'm just going to ask you to tell us
(02:51):
who you are, what your journey has been, what your
passions are, and I'll tell you. The book aims to
help people figure out their own individual magic formula, and
the podcast I'm hoping people can hear themselves in the
conversations and say, maybe that part fits into my own formula.
(03:14):
So can you just tell us who you are?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes? I love that. So, yes, my name is Katie Eloatoyan.
As they get older, I found myself going more by
my full name, and it's you know, the first day Ramadan,
so Ramadama bar for anyone who's who's practicing. My full
name is Khadija, our first name, but folks do call
me Katie. I'm from Staten Island, New York, so east
(03:38):
coast definitely goes, even though I wouldn't was that there
right now what we state Island New York had pretty
much at that time thinking I had an average childhood
until like years later like oh well nope, that's that average.
A shrauma, Java drama, but blowing up. You know, I
was really confident, go get a child, you know, really smart.
(03:59):
I could talk my wise gymnastics. You know, I started
working since I was fourteen. I was always like an
I don't want to say an overachiever. I just excelled
in the things that made me feel, made me feel happy,
or that I proceed to be important. When it was
time to go with always to college, I made sure
to go somewhere as far as away as possible from
(04:22):
my parents. So like the farthest place I could go
in New York will stay within the New York State
school system for education was Buffalo. So you know, when
it was time to go, I went to Buffalo Stay.
And I remember the first day that my well, the
first day being there, my dad and my brother dropped
me off. And as soon as they like left to
head back down state to New York City, like, I
(04:45):
had gotten a knock on my door and it was
a member of a fraternity and he was like, hey,
do you want to hang out? And I was just
like sure. So later on that day, later on that
day in the evening time, you know, he introduced me
to my first drink, and from there on I was like, oh,
my gosh, this it was just so magical, It felt
so great, it felt amazing. I kind of skipped my
(05:08):
religious background, so I grew up, you know, in a
Muslim home to Nigerian parents, so there was no alcohol
in the household. I used to say initially when I
first started to like have these conversations on a broader platform,
I used to say, like, I didn't know anyone who
drank when I was younger, But that's not true. I
just didn't. Alcohol just wasn't in my mind and I
(05:28):
didn't care for it. I didn't like really, I just
didn't put two and two together. Right. In hindsight, I
realized that I actually went to school with someone who
would constantly come to.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
School drunk, like high school, middle school, elementary school, high school.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
High school with vodka her bottle. And I my head,
you're crazy, like this is just like what you do
being just mental, So that's this is give me an
idea and I just stop there and not trying to
put this person's business on fut street. But yeah, I
realized later on, like, oh wow, this person was suffering
from addiction in front of me, and no one did
anything but like judge her, including myself and put her
(06:04):
to the side anyway. So throughout undergrad you know, I
will say that the first time I started drinking A
was always magic for me. It helped me get out
of my body. So I'd be very clear. I didn't
develop an addiction until two thousand and let's say eighteen,
But from like twenty and thirteen, I believe that's when
I started. Don't quote no. So that was not don't
(06:25):
quote me.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But years what's before I would like to quote Katie
it was twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I'm just kidding, go ahead, I get confuse it like
my law school day that grad I just I think
it's like two thousand. I don't even know.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
No, I do the same thing. I'm like, I graduated
in medical I graduated medical school in ninety eight. It's like, no, No,
you graduated college in ninety eight.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, so I'll just say this for the next four years.
I'll say this. My drinking was always problematic because I
used it to escape. I used it to literally check out.
I didn't drink to socialize. I drank to the point
where I was not going to remember what happened or
I was just an out of body experience and for
the next four years, it was okay, does everyone drink really,
(07:09):
you know, drink and appropriately. And I was going to school,
you know, I was part of sorority. I DoD a
government body and was an assistant. Like I am checking
out I'm checking out boxes, I'm doing what I had
to do. So it wasn't a big deal when it
was time for me to like when it was time
to graduate, I was trying to figure out what I
wanted to do. And I think it was like the
(07:30):
death of Trey m and Martin rest in peace and
and and the fact that I liked a challenge, and
I felt like law school was going to be that
that scenario where I can be challenged. But I never
I didn't grow up wanting to be a lawyer. In fact,
when I went to college, I went to study communications
and theater, and I remember like that's what I applied
(07:52):
for to get in. And I remember like the first
day of school, I'm just like this is just so easy.
And that's still child like the mindset I had of
just always feeling like I had I couldn't be myself.
I had to be I had to be or do
more like ignoring my own interests for what I thought
would bring me like you know, you know, glory and
(08:14):
and and just occolades and and a lot of appreciations.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It would make you good enough.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yes, yes, so yeah, So it was a passing shiamarin
and then just me thinking like okay, if I have
a lot of degree, no one could tell me nothing.
And I went to and I went to law school
without without thought, like literally graduated, applied, got in and
you know, law school and the legal practice is a
(08:42):
field of just not just, but includes more drinking. It
glorifies drinking, It rewards us, It rewards our hard work
drinking and to fit in yes, yes, just like college. Yes,
and so yeah the next three years again drink. But
I excelled in school, I selled in like extracurricular activities.
(09:04):
I excelled in my in work. However, I was drinking
at an abnormal rate. And one of the indicators that
like my body was trying to tell me that this
is the problem and I did not even know. And
it's so funny how we're now in Ramadan. I will
say in my second year, I had an internship. And
(09:25):
in this internship, it's really common for law students to
work intern during the summer and you want to a
nice firm get a big pay chat. So I'm working
at a firm getting an enormous amount of money that
I've never even was able to have my hand up on, right,
So I'm living life. The firm is treating or rewarding
(09:46):
me constantly with like dinners and cocktail hours. So I'm drinking.
I'm having fun. So at that time in my life,
I always told myself when Ramadan came, I would not
drink because it's it's anyways definitely not in this holy month. Yeah,
and I remember the first day that I, like within
(10:08):
that summer that I didn't drink because I was observing
yamadad my body started itching like ridiculously. Yeah, I thought
spiders falling on me.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Oh so you had delirium tremens the DTS.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Can you believe that no one knew? I want to
I had to leave my internship early.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Wow. I'm glad you didn't die, Katie, because sorry, let
me be a doctor will kick quick and drop a statistic.
One in five people that developed the DTS and doesn't
get detoxed dies. It is like literally a life threatening condition.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
When I tell you I went to doctor, doctor, doctor doctor.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
They couldn't see it. They couldn't even begin to consider
it because you're a high performing attorney. Y'all cannot see
our faces. But me and Katie are giving each other
the black girl eyeballs like this is but that's what
it is.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Right, almost was my life, And I always say that
at that time I was able to stop. I went
through Ramadad without drinking. So I still feel like I
had an addiction, clearly, like my body was saying, what,
you know, you need to stop drinking. I imagine, Sorry,
y'all'm observing Ramadad to our kids of water.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
By the way, Ramadan moved bark. Is that what I say?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yes, thank you so much. So, you know, I just
always think that what if they just told Like if
someone told me that this is what was happening and
you needed to stop drinking, you needed to stop. No
one told me anything. So I went back to school
in the following fall, picked up my drinking habit, and
(11:44):
it wasn't until I graduated out in this year. By
saying it wasn't until I graduated, you know, I had
the apartment of my dreams, car and attorney. You have
a job. You know, I did exceptionally well on the bar,
but internally I was a mess. I was not happy
and I didn't know why. I didn't know why I
was unhappy. I didn't know why I was sad. But
the only at that time I had no idea or
(12:04):
concept of like hoping mechanisms and trauma and A B
and C and this and that. So I did what
I need to do, which was drink. Yeah, that's what
I need to do.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I drank the solution until it's the problem and so.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So yeah, yeah, I drank. And it was when a
therapist said, you know, maybe two years later, it happened
really quickly when she said, I think you're like you
have an addiction. And I just was looking at her
like you're crazy. I do not have an addiction. Didn't
know what addiction it was, didn't even know black people
could be addicted to anything, didn't know. I just was
(12:39):
just in the wind and I literally left her office.
Didn't see her a year later when I finally was
able to admit, oh, I think alcohol is at the
root of a lot of the external problems. So because
back when you're drinking, problems arise, you get get fired,
you don't go show up to work, you get to arguments,
(13:00):
use relationships, and I was experiencing all of that, and
she was telling me like, we can't get to the
root of why how we got here, but you need
to stop drinking, Like that's ting on more problems.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And wasn't Katie, was it one thing a year later
that really kind of made you say, let me take
a look at this, or was oh, if you will
share it with us.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I mean, I'm very honest. I realize so some things
I think, like where you're going through an addiction, you
blame a lot of things of the addiction that and
you realize, Okay, that's just not for me. So I
just couldn't work. I just did. I had no motivations
and get up and go to work. And I think
at that time, like a second two year attorney, like
going through like three firms, that's that's a problem. Yeah,
(13:45):
and putting myself in like Missy situations where I wasn't
where you know, I constantly had to go to the doctor,
my doctors. Why would you want I was getting sick?
Am She was like why, Like you can only see
me really once or twice a year, getting this is
getting ridiculous. So it was just honestly like in cumulation
of things. But I think that once I couldn't afford
my apartment anymore and I had to move back to
(14:07):
my parents house. Yeah, that's what it was. I was like,
I have to get my life together.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
I want to put that right next to So the
book is divided into six chapters, and it has this
idea that addiction develops for biological, psychological, and environmental reasons,
and you're born into some of those right, So biologically
you're born into a genetic risk risk. Psychologically you have
your childhood experiences. And so I love what you said
(14:38):
when you started. You were like, I thought I had
the average childhood and you said, but no trauma, trauma, trauma,
And unfortunately those two are not mutually exclusive, like average
childhood and trauma trauma, trauma. A lot of people don't
realize what they experienced as kids or trauma, and that's
setting them up. And then environmentally is like the home
environment for yours, like Nigerian Muslim home for example. But
(15:02):
then these repeat again throughout our lives. So biologically, when
we develop illnesses get prescribed in medication something like that.
Psychologically needing to be good enough for you environmentally is culture. Right,
So that college drinking culture and then that law firm
drinking culture. But what really stood out to me that
(15:24):
you said just now and so your experience is just
falling into the framework like lock and step. You said,
when I went away to college, I went to the
furthest away from home that I could possibly go without
being in Canada. Right, you were like, oh, and all
the way to the top of New York. And then
(15:47):
what led you to say this alcohol may be an
addiction is when you had to come back home.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right, that's a full circle. Okay, so you come back
home and keep bringing us forward to your recovery journey.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Now that's I didn't have an even I never even
thought about it like that. So yeah, thank you for
like definitely that insight. Yeah. I remember like moving back
into my parents home and I was like, Okay, no,
I'm gonna go to I'm gonna check into a rehab
because you know, my parents are family, They're doing the
best they can. But what I realized that I had
(16:26):
to do a whole complete belief system, switch thinking switch
value switch that wasn't aligned, that is not aligned with
how my parents were raised, how what they find important, right,
So and I think somebodyn't know that, so I but
I just do, like, Okay, I had to go. I
needed some way to stay, and I went to rehab,
(16:48):
and even though I had moved back into my parents' house,
but I needed And I remember being a rehab and
being the only black girl at the rehab and thinking
to myself, oh, I'm not like these people. These people
they have been in and out for years. They you know,
(17:08):
don't have the level of education I have. Again being
just mental, they have problems. I'm okay, I'm not that bad.
So and honestly, while I was in the rehab, like
you know, they were like med students. I think they
were doing the residencies and like my doctor would invite
me to sit in like to use me as amused.
So honestly, I'm getting like good treatment in the here too.
(17:30):
I'm not really feeling like I have a problem. Yeah,
And throughout three rehab, like the workers, employees and doctors
and therapists and this and that kept on just telling
me that I can bounce back. I'm not like too
far gone. So again I'm not really understanding the gravity
of my situation. And it's even like just even till today,
(17:53):
I can be suffering, like I can literally tell you
I'm not well, not you, but this is my life.
I can be like, I am not okay, I'm on
a verge of a relapse, a slipt, and people would
be like, but Katie, you you know you just so
well to right, It's like, right, do you want me
to walk out? Like what do you want me to do?
(18:14):
What do you want me to? Like? What? What? So
I left that rehab I think I did like many
thirty days because it was like the talks and reap
when I tell you how that same bit I went
back to drinking.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, I want you know what, Katie. So in season one,
we spoke to Phil Rutherford, who also I think was
having trouble with drinking. He said the same thing, he
didn't know that one addiction that black people had addictions
other than like crack. That's like all you see, right,
It's like black people are in crack cocaine. So if
(18:46):
it ain't crack cocaine, it's cool. But like alcoholism though,
and then also that there's anything for us you went
to that Rehabbyer the only black face there, and he
was like, what really made a difference for him? I
hope people will go back and listen to his episod.
So somebody brought him into an AA meeting for black
men and it was life changing. Two. You're like, I
(19:09):
can tell you I am critically in danger for a
relapse today. But because you are not homeless, because you
are not jobless, because you are not living in the street,
because you are not begging, because you are not dirty.
People's concept of what addiction looks like is keeping us
from getting healthy. It's the same thing when you had
(19:30):
that withdrawal as a lawyer to that stop that doctor
from being able to see it. It is so, so,
so critically important that we understand, yes, black people, highly
performing like us are addicted to things and there is
help for us. And this is what I love about
sober black girls. I know we're going to get to
(19:52):
it and there's a community for us.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Well that's so real. So yeah, I left, We had
went back to drinking. There was an incident maybe I
think I left. We had like in February and in
July there was an incident with like me and a
family member and I really realized how much Apple played
(20:15):
a role in that, and I needed to stop drinking.
But at that time, I literally couldn't stop drinking, Like
I could not stop drinking. And I wasn't drinking all
the time every day, but maybe every other day I
needed to drink. And I don't know at the time,
but I had a bunch of like inflammation issues, stomach issues.
(20:36):
I honestly, I was diagnosed with vitis maybe a year ago,
and I honestly do I feel like it's there's a
connection between that and like my drinking, even though the
doctor there's no connection, like whatever, because I was so
inflamed when I was drinking, not not like just red
and big and bloated. So that's when I decided to
(20:56):
get sober or decided to emboculate join like that's why
I accepted I had a drinking problem, except that I
needed help. And I remember the first twelve SEP meeting
I did go to. I remember well, no, I looked
on line. I remember looking online and at that time,
the recovery sobriety community was nothing like how it is today.
And I'm definitely going to I'm definitely going to. I
(21:18):
don't say tried it touble backo stuff for that. I
remember being online like twos and stuff at eighteen, trying
to get help, and a lot of folks were like
just talking about their sobriety was like you know, coffee
and yoga. They were like, it was just they weren't
being real about their experience. They were not being real
about their experiences that folks thought like only the rooms
(21:41):
were for that, right, So I couldn't really relate. There
were other pro there were other girl groups of sobriety groups,
but I could not relate to anything that they were
talking about. Why do you say anything? But I couldn't
relate to most of the things they were talking about.
And then the pictures that they would use on Instagram
or Twitter didn't show girls that looked like.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
We're never you yep.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So that was one.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
So how can you see yourself and how can you
hear yourself when your face is not being shown and
your story is not being told exactly? Yep?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
So that was one aspect. And then I went to
a top Step meeting and I remember like in my city,
the city that was living in, there were hardly any
twelve Step meetings I had to take, like because I
that's mine have a car anymore, Like I'm down back. Yeah,
I had to take two buses to get to like
the twelve step meeting that I attended, and I remember,
(22:33):
like I remember doing it for a while, but a
lot of the things that I hurt and I do,
like even today, if I need a meeting, if SPGC
is the hosting meeting, I need a mean, I'll go.
A lot of SPGC members are twelve steppers, because I
think the program for the most part, I don't think
any program as a hundred pet era free, but I
think the program for the most part does I think
(22:54):
any program that telling people stay sober it is going
it works right and whatever capacity. So I wanted to
put that out there because I know how sometimes you
saw suppers get But I remember like going to this
twelve step meeting and again being like one of the
only black people there, and then it was just a
lot of like bragging a competition. It just it felt
like this is not what I needed. And now this
(23:15):
time I didn't know what I needed, but I know
that this wasn't what I needed. It was a lot like, yeah,
you gotta get somewhere so you can get your house again.
You know, like everyone is like robbing about how much
money I make, several figures I make this and that.
I remember a speaker meeting I attended where the speaker
was like basically describing her addiction and she was she
(23:35):
said something to the effect of, you know, this is
one of the worst times of my life. I was
living in this neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
This ain't that's the neighborhood you live in.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I was like, what is well with my neighborhood? Besides,
it's just not this bow I live in is very divided.
So this is Shore north Shore. Yeah, what is we're
living in that neighbor Besides, it's just not feel of
white people. Are you in your mind? Like I was
so mind. I was like, I just didn't understand what
she meant by that. Besides that they were just black
(24:05):
people in that neighborhood and that was the lack of
comunity attendant for them. I'm just like, yeah, this is
just not you know, let's be clear, I was still relapsing,
not blaming my relaps on that on that I was
just in the throes of addiction. But I knew that
that wasn't helping. Yeah, and that's when I decided to
intend outpatient and increase to a Blackos club. And in
(24:26):
the beginning, So Black Oos Club was just a blog
where I was documenting my experiences in addiction. And I'm
still relapsing, but I can still write, but I can
write about my relapse. A lot of folks get surprised
when they hear that, Like I was still an addiction
at that time.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I'm like, uh, yeah, read the blog right, Yeah, we're
honest about your experiences you were having.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I was still an addiction. And then like in
twenty twenty, and I was still and I don't want
to say, Look, it wasn't like the height of my addiction.
Like now I have like three months ober and then
I'll re left. So we and they have another dree men.
So I'm doing better, but to me it's still I
know I shouldn't be drinking, and the fact that I
am drinking, it's to me it's still an addiction. So
there's levels to everything. But even in twenty twenty, when
(25:11):
when so the Bacus Club became a collective and so
Blacking Club became a collective because folks in the pandemic,
they realized that they're drinking patterns or habits had taken
a turn. And also a lot of folks were in
a space now where they candid now and they've always
had a drinking problem, you know, when you're in the
(25:32):
throws of life. They were able to just keep on
performing and doing so, you know, they didn't have space,
so the opportunity to address it. So it was until
twenty twenty, during the height of the pandemic that you know,
other black girls were searching on Google, you know, black support,
and then they found for the Blacks Club and we
started meeting once a week on Thursdays and we've been
(25:54):
you know, we've just grown from there. Now we're not
a profit organization, but that's how the Blackness Club came up.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, So what I love about your story is one
it's so accessible. I think it was Dave and the
dopey episode that was also very young. The first time
he went to rehab and he said the same thing
you said. He was like, the worst thing they said
to me was you'll be fine. What they really need
to say to me is like this can kill you,
(26:20):
and you are young, so you have a lot of
opportunity to save yourself. But it's going to be hard
work to save yourself. And so similarly, Katie, like you said,
they were telling you like, oh, you're gonna be fine.
They made it seem like not a serious, life threatening
illness that you have. And then you were like, I
don't know what I needed at that moment, but I
knew this twelve step meeting was not what I needed.
(26:43):
And I think so often for people with addiction, we
don't trust them to know what they need, and we
have to trust them to know this is what I
don't need, Like this is not helping me, this is
hurting me. And because we don't create a way for
people to safely say I'm going to try something else,
(27:04):
then you just we make you think this is the
only thing. So if that's not it, there's nothing right.
And luckily you didn't take that there's nothing. You were like,
let me find a way that works for me, and
you created this blog which was really for yourself and
now has turned into for so many black girls getting sober.
Last thing I'll say that I absolutely love. I'm like
(27:26):
hardcore militant harm reduction approach, and so this concept that
you have to be completely abstinent or you're not making
a difference is wrong. For people with severe alcohol use disorder,
complete abstinence most likely is the right recommendation. But does
it matter that you cut down from drinking every single
(27:48):
day to drinking every other day? Yes it matters. Does
it matter you were making so much effort to make
that change, Yes it matters. Does it matter that you
were able to put together three months, Yes matters, And
we rob people of those successes, and I think it
poisons the recovery process for people. So I just wanted
(28:09):
to pull out all of those elements of your story
that I think are so like people will hear that
in their own experience. I want them to hear that.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, for sure. And I you know what I realized.
I realized that like no one knows what goes, No
one knows what's going on in our household, right, So
I think that like when sobriety recovery, sobriety social media
just took off, maybe in twenty twenty. I think like
during the pandemic, it's when it kind of took off,
and you know, there were a lot of folks trying
(28:37):
to now become sobriety influencers, which I need for an influencer.
But I get it. I get that this is like
a niche that people can tap into. And you know,
they were at a time where like people influencers were passing
away from like overdoses and relapses, and it's like being
(28:58):
on social media portraying one thing, which is they're right.
I get it, like I get it, but they're not
feeling safe or I don't know what they're not what
they're feeling or not feeling, but just not being in
a space where they're letting us they need help or
they relapse or they just I'm sorry. I don't think
relips has to be a part of everyone's story, but
it's a part of most people's story, especially now in
today's today's world where people are struggling from a post
(29:20):
pinion I shouldn't say post pandemic, but you get like
a post quarantine world. You know, the economy, just mental
health overall has to die. Relapse and slips are a
part of a lot of stories. And I don't say
that to enforce or encourage it, but I'm just like,
you have to be real. No one would know what
I'm going for unless I like literally no one would
(29:41):
know I have a slip or relapse unless I tell them,
how are you going to? Don't live in my apartment?
You don't live with me. So I think that like, yeah,
I mean, I guess we can go. We could go
and move through the world pretending that people do not relapse.
People and you do not relapse or have slips. But
just as a myself, as an individual, and as a
(30:01):
person who works with so many you know, a whole club,
and then in the Swakabi community, having talks with people
like you, doctors like you, like you, and then in
conferences I know a lot of people do, especially in
the beginning, do relapse. They do have slips. Hopefully they're
able to learn from it. But I think pretending that
(30:22):
like it's uh, you know, make it a declaration that
you want to get sober, and then you just all
it gets sober, It's like, Okay, that's not it's not realistic.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
It is also dangerous. Okay. So I'm gonna go doctory
and drop a couple of stats again. First step I'm
gonna drop is seventy five percent of people with addiction recover.
This is massively important. That means it is not just possible,
it is probable okay, three out of four people. The
next statistic is, in the first year of trying to
(30:51):
get sober, as much as fifty five percent of people
experience and relapse of that illness. That's more than half, right,
So we cannot make people think they are the only
ones experiencing a slip or a relapse of this illness,
because that makes people keep it a secret. And the
(31:11):
reason it's because we value people who are sober, but
we don't value people who are in active addiction. And
that's a trash approach, right, Like, we have to value
people no matter what stage their illness is in. And
if we can let people know we value them. And
the safer thing to do is to let somebody know
when you slip or if your illness relapses, so that
(31:32):
it doesn't turn back into stage four. I'm going to
use a cancer metaphor here. It's just as dangerous as
pretending that breast cancer doesn't relapse. It's just as dangerous
as pretending that lung cancer doesn't relapse, because yes they do,
and no, we don't want it for you. And so
we do everything we know possible that decreases the chance
(31:54):
of that relapse. But we also surveil. We have you
doing your monthly breast exams, have you doing your mammogram
every six months instead of every year. We have you
doing your colonoscupy every five years instead of every ten. Right, Like,
let's not pretend. Let's be real about what we know
about the course of this illness and maximally equip people
(32:15):
to keep themselves safe. Part of that is being able
to say I drink.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, that is so real. Yeah, because that's so real
for a number of reasons. One the success of a
Blaco's club, not only as a club, but like members
saying like, hey, they have two years sober, three years sober,
and thanking me for a freedom club. I freedo this
club when I was still an addiction. So again it's
like what you're saying is so true, Like you can't
(32:41):
discount people just because they are currently in an addiction
or don't have that many years that folks will deem worthy.
But I would say, like one of the downsides for
me is that, like, you know, starting sober Blacos club
and I feel like my addiction, like what I knew
I had an addiction, It all just happened so fast,
(33:04):
and it happened really really fast when like again, my
dreging was always problematic, but from it being an addiction
where I couldn't stop drinking to getting my own help,
like you know, recovering from myself and then being thrown
into service, it really truly did happen fast. So there's
some people that I sort of tell a Blackco's Club
(33:24):
with who when I mean I started with like they
were first meeting attendees and they have more years than me.
Because I was not taking care of my of my recovery,
of my sobriety, you know, it just hit me. You know,
I was having a really challenging time. You know, that's
where we had to be scheduled. One of our members
passed away, and it really hit me and hit me
(33:46):
in a way that it's just it's just weird, like
when you're you're on the sobriety journey, this recovery journey.
So the Blacks Club, you know, the age ranges from
like let's say, like twenties to like sixties, and yeah,
we do have younger folks and all the folks, but
that's that's like a range of folks meetings who say
their ages. So it's just you know, it was just
so hurtful. This person. I'm never going to see them
(34:07):
online anymore. And this is a person that really, you know,
made it two years sober, really was trying to you know,
even though I felt like she was doing so great,
she was always trying to do better and trying to
improve it. I think it's something that a lot of
black girls like, you know, it's just like you're not
drinking anymore, like you could say you're red and I know,
(34:31):
like we shouldn't settle there, but I feel like for
a lot of folk, and again look at me, like,
I just feel like, you know, for a lot of us,
it's like that's not enough, not but it is something.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
It's not everything, but it is something, and we tend
to discount it as nothing.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yes, right, yes, So it wasn't until recently with like
my therapist and I was just telling her like, oh,
I'm struggling like really bad, like really badly, and she
like out, She's like, Kadie, it'sn't someone you've ever had
time to just focus on yourself, focused on your mental
health without like constantly being thrown into work into work,
(35:11):
and even though service like you know, services service it's
still work. And she put it in my head about
like taking a sabbatical at the end of the year.
I'm just well, because you know, we have a lot
of things coming up, and I'm like, sabbatic goal, Like
I'm not a clergyman. But then she's like, no, she
made sense of it for me. She's like, no, So
backs Club is your ministry and you have been doing
this work since you were an addiction and say, I
(35:34):
guess I want to stay with people my relapse and
we're talking about slips and we're talking about how you
can still be addictionate and help people. And I do
agree with that, agree with that, I believe in that.
But she when it comes to my story, when it
comes to our member's story who just passed away, Kelly,
but it is important, like you said, when you are
having those challenging moments to let people know and then
(35:58):
get the help that you need. And even like the
help may not be what you wanted to be, Like,
I don't w anyone tell me you have to like
take up two months of battle goal. But the truth is,
the more I say that out loud, the more I
share with my friends, and like you, I'm like Oh,
I do need that. Actually I need a.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Well listen, I'll tell you I'm being psychiatric here. So
as psychiatrists, we listen to the things that people don't say,
and the order kind of like the thoughts that you
put next to each other. So you said, I don't
even know how we got on this. We got on
this because we were talking about it being safe to
say when you need help. And then you talked about
(36:37):
your friend who died, which is an unspoken connection there
that like maybe she needed some sort of help even
though she was doing great and everything, you know, like
she needed some sort of help. And then you drew
an unspoken connection there to your therapist telling you need
a sabbatical, and it sounds like you're working your way through.
(36:57):
But what I'm hearing from you, Katie, and it's it's interesting.
I'm going to tell you about this other influencer that
is I'll tell you what the threat of connection is is.
I was going to ask you what is your magic
formula for staying sober? And you started to answer it
a little bit, and it sounds like what you're learning
is that part of what you may need to add
to your formula is space for yourself for sure, right,
(37:20):
it's space for yourself. So my son is seventeen. He's
an avid trampoline guy. He literally goes to Skyzone every
single day of the week. He's like taught himself all
this stuff is funny. He's senior in high school. But
so he follows this diver influencer on social media. She's
an extreme high diver, so she dives from like I
don't even know how know how high this platform is,
(37:41):
but it's so high that you cannot go in the
water head first. You go in the water feet first
from your dives because it's so high. And he was
showing me her Instagram feed the other day and it
said I am taking it didn't say Sabbattlekle, I'm taking
a break. For two straight years, I have been diving
and posting every single day, and for my mental health
(38:04):
and my physical health, I need to take a break.
And then two days later, this podcast or Norah macan Ernie,
I love her. Her podcast is terrible. Thanks for asking,
I'm taking a break, right. And so service is beautiful
and it fills our cups. It is also pouring out
of your cup. And I think people more than understand
(38:27):
when you need to take a break. So I just
want to validate you and I want to encourage you,
whether it's a two month sabbatical or some other strategy.
What your unconscious mind just told me is that you
need to create some space for.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Cakes and fire, and I work moved towards that. Like
we got a board. You know, we have a new
board of very skilled people, so I'm hoping by the
end of the year they can you know, take off.
You know, they understand the ways and the lands or
SBGC because you know, we host meetings just you know,
anyone looking for the support that meets a little c plug.
(39:03):
We host four support meetings on Wednesday. We're working with
a recovered man in Kenya who hosts men's meeting and
community meetings for anyone regardless of their gender. And the
other meetings. We have a queer meeting where we have
two meetings to specifically excuse me, for black girls and
black women. You know, we have our mentorship program. We
(39:26):
have a mentorship program. We do in person events. You know,
we have a Facebook group of about six one point
five thousand members I think maybe one point six on
social media. We have a blog, we have a podcast,
our newsletter. So there's a lot of support out there
for folks. I think, like you said, Nick, sorry, I
(39:47):
want to call you to.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Go are you an Joan?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
No? All right, sorry, So there's a lot of support
there and I just want people to know that again,
I just get always inspired for so just like you know,
SBGC SPGC saved their lives that they wouldn't even have
like for and from days if it wasn't for the club.
And it's so you know, it's a it's a lot
(40:10):
for me to hear. It's a lot because it's like
I get it, and I think, yeah, I'm just under
there by saying yeah, yeah. But I wanted to thank
you for your previous comments because I swear like I
not my experiences with like therapists, especially during my addiction
when I couldn't afford to pay for private therapy, if
(40:34):
that makes sense, so I would have to like be
with the thought. And I don't think that really matters,
but I think it sometimes in my experience it does.
Like I'm able to just say stuff and and now
me and my rapists are just chatting about what we
did on Saturday, like we're just laughing and I'm able,
and I don't know if you want to call it
the New Yorker me, if you want to call it
(40:55):
the lawyer and me, I'm able to say things. But
in a way we're people just really are not picking
up what I'm saying and just gate through. And I've
always said that, like, you know, that's another thing, reflexible,
Bible's club, our values of fearness and equity. When people
are like, you know, you don't need money to recover,
I'm like, are you out of your mind? Yes? You do?
Like you know what I mean? Like, I can definitely
(41:17):
tell the difference. And I don't want to say it's
the education. I really don't. I think that, like, you know,
the therapists that I was worth seeing, counselors I was
seeing while I was in an addiction, they had so
many clients and so many patients, and so I don't
think it's the education level, but there is something. And
I recognize the difference of what I'm paying a therapist
one hundred and fifty dollars a session in comparison to
(41:40):
you know, State Randal, state the government led it's a different.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, it's the system, and it's the time that's available
to connect with people. It's a real thing, and I
hate that for us.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I hate that, like I do hate, I really just
it just breaks my heart. So I think that to say,
I feel like I've been rambling and again I haven't
been able to eat or deep water.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
But you have not been rambling. You have not been rambling.
This has been beautiful. It is over. That's how time
flies when you're like dropping knowledge on people. So let
me ask you this last question, Katie. First of all,
thank you so much for coming on here. This is incredible.
I would love to figure out a way to magnify
(42:26):
sober black girl clubs work. Let's just figure out how
we do that. But this is a question I ask everybody.
I try to remember to give people heads up at
the beginning. I did not give you a heads up,
so you's gonna have to go off the dome. The
name of the book is Unaddiction. It is undoing what
we think we know about addiction that's hurting people. Oh sorry, unlearning,
unlearning what we think we know, undoing the stigma that
(42:48):
is killing people, and uncovering the conversations that we need
to have to make a difference. So your parting words.
If there's just one thing and I want to talk
scifically to black girls and black women, if there is
one thing that you want black girls and black women
to unlearn, undo or conversation to uncover, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
I think we need to unlearn the practice of doing,
of producing, of exerting. I truly think it's killing us,
like when I was slapped on these last couple of months.
It's killing us. Yeah, feeling like we're not enough even
when we have overcome some of the worst possible things.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah, I want you to play that back for yourself, Okay, Katie, Yeah, Yeah,
you are enough. You are doing enough. You have done enough.
I followed the NAT Ministry on Instagram. I don't know
if you know it is. Their tagline is rest is Revolutionary.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, we're reading that book in our Tuesday cersover meeting
that one of our members, Pastcilla. I think she's a
therapist as well or counselor. She hosts that meeting. So yeah,
we're currently reading that book right now our Tuesday meeting.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Thank you. I heard your tears, which is how I
know you felt it so deeply. I felt I felt
it for you, and so I know that you need
some rest. Yeah, thank you for coming on here. All right,
y'all check out Sober Black Girls Club as you can hear.
Katie is amazing and has created this community which I'm
(44:29):
super proud of. So okay, let's not let this be
the last time. Let's stay connected for sure. Thank you,
Thank you so much for tuning in. And if you
like this episode, please check out my book on addiction,
Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available
at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
(44:54):
and wherever books are sold. If you liked this episode,
please share it with someone think may need to hear it. Also,
please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star
review that helps us reach any and everyone who may
be looking for support in the face of addiction.
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