May 14, 2024 • 40 mins
Dan Peres, author of, "As Needed For Pain: A Memoir of Addiction" joins us on the pod to talk about his "garden variety" disease of addiction to opioids, to which he was introduced after a back injury. He and Dr. Harrison discuss what someone who is addicted to opioids looks like, what kept Dan from seeking help years after he recognized he needed it, smuggling 1000 Vicodin from Tijuana, the magic of receiving support from the recovery community, and the miracles that abound from being able to give it back. Don't miss this episode, because Dan's story is like many others - discovering, by doctor's orders, the relieving a substance might offer - but his journey to recovery might inspire you.
Don't wait! Find "As Needed For Pain" wherever books are sold.
Find Dan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-peres/
___
Dr. Nzinga Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is out now! Order here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/
Find Nzinga on Threads and X (Twitter): @nzingamd / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzingaharrisonmd/
Follow us on IG @unaddictionpod.
If you'd like to watch our interviews, you can catch us on YouTube @unaddictionpod. Questions? Email us at: unnaddictionpod@gmail.com
If you or a loved one are experiencing addiction, have questions about recovery, or need treatment tailored to you, visit eleanorhealth.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unaddictioned, the podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
Dan Perez is the author of As Needed for Pain,
a memoir released in twenty twenty that details his addiction
to opioids. Dan is well known for his tenure as
(00:47):
European editor at w magazine and editor of Details magazine.
He is currently the president of ad Age and Modern Healthcare.
This conversation was so awesome because Dan shares with us
the moment he took that first prescription opioid and the
experience that he had, which is such a human experience
(01:10):
all of us can relate to, but how that ultimately
turned into addiction, and then we spend so much time
on belonging. It was just a really great conversation. I
hope you'll enjoy it. Dan, Thank you for coming on
the podcast anyway, Dan, thank you so much for joining
me on the Unaddictioned podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Nice to meet you.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Likewise, nice to meet you. Thank you so much for having.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Me so super excited to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So the point of the podcast is to raise awareness
of my book, which is called Unaddictioned. What are the
things we need to unlearn that we think we know,
What are the stigmas we need to undo that are
killing people, what are the conversations we need to uncover?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And so On this podcast, we just have conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
With people who have had their own journey to recovery,
with the idea that everyone's journey is their own journey,
but there are some recurrent pieces and somebody might hear
something that resonates with them in the formula that you're using.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That they might try out. So that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
That's the aim, right, is to try to help even
one person, right, if you're lucky, it's more than one,
but you set the goal at one.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Right, exactly, one person at a time, one day at
a time.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So can you just tell us who is Dan?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Wow? That's that's a really complicated question.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I mean, I am a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I you know, it's a question that I struggled with
for a really long time, and I think it's a
question that I avoided answering for a really long time.
So I can tell you who I am today, and
I'm happy to tell you who I was. But I'm
(03:09):
a dad, I'm a brother, I'm a son, a friend,
I am a sponsor. I am a man in his
early fifties who was given a second chance, and I
(03:30):
am grateful for everything that I have in my life today.
I'm a journalist, I'm a media executive, and I am,
you know, in recovery and really proud of the fact
(03:50):
that I am sober today.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So talk to us about the journey to identify who
Dan is today. You kind of split us into two
epics for your life.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I think I did. I think lots of people, you know,
there are you know, every story is unique, you know,
but they're rarely super original, right you know? There's uh
do you want to disagree with it? I feel like
you're about the poke holes in that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Oh no, I felt myself agreeing with that, and I
was eagerly anticipating the double click.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Okay, okay, I, like so many other people, struggled to
understand who I was and that from a very very
young age, and felt like everyone else around me had
been given the owner's manual or some form of like
(04:47):
a blueprint, but when they got to me, they ran out.
I didn't get one. So I went through my life
for many, many, many years thinking everyone else around me
was normal and I wasn't, for whatever reason, deeply insecure,
(05:09):
not feeling like I fit in in any meaningful way
into friend groups, really any any kind of group. So
I pretended, and I can't remember a time when I
wasn't pretending. And my journey was it wasn't one of
(05:35):
self discovery. I think it was one of self loathing
and struggling for self esteem. And I escaped where I
could escape. In my case, I escaped into like fantasy
in some ways, you know, I escaped into magic. I
(05:55):
loved doing magic tricks, and I was I would you know,
for hour or is practice in front of the mirror.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And this is from how young, oh gosh, he began escaping,
I know, maybe seven or eight, yeah, little.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
And I was the younger brother, still am the younger brother.
Of like the town star when he was in high school.
You know, my brother, who is the world to me
and who is my best friend, and I couldn't be
more grateful to be His brother was the captain of
(06:33):
the sports team, was an a student, had tons of girlfriends,
and I was just this sort of you know, if
I wasn't Jeff's brother, two people I was. You know,
I didn't. I couldn't carve out an identity for myself,
and so I tried to hide in the shadows. And
(06:57):
you know, you kind of trip over some stuff in
this if you're not really paying attention. And I ultimately
tripped over some stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, how old were you the first time you tripped?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I probably first, probably thirteen or fourteen, when I first
tried smoking pot and cigarettes. Maybe sixteen or so, when
I maybe first had a drink, And those things were good.
They were temporary band aids, you know, I guess that's redundant.
(07:29):
Band aids are supposed to be temporary, and I was.
But I started to say, oh, like, oh, this feels good.
This is a nice little time out.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
From some relief.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's some relief from like an unrelenting fire hose of anxiety.
And fear and self doubt, right, and so it just
sort of shielded me from that from that stuff. When
I got into my twenties, and this is a pretty
com and tail, I injured my back and was introduced
(08:06):
to opiate prescription painkillers, and boy, that was like coming
home for me, you know, if I had been struggling
for you know, at that point, maybe twenty five years,
to understand who I was and to feel the warm
(08:26):
embrace of a group of friends, I felt that warm
embrace from these, from these pills, and they were just
the coziest blanket you could want for you could hope for,
excuse me, and I wrapped myself in it and finally
(08:50):
felt what I believed anyway at the time was normal.
Right Like I said I I would always it was normal,
and it was me and this made me feel normal,
and so I went all in.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And you know, what is so funny is not the
right word. I'll use it because that's the way we
use it. When you were describing the first time you
took those opioids, I was going to tell you a
story of a patient I had in the past, who
was a woman who said, when I first took that
(09:29):
pain pill also after an injury. It was like the
first time I had been wrapped in the hug I
had been needing my whole life.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And then you literally.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Used exactly the same words. And so I think to
what you said when you first started sharing your story
with us. It's my story, but it's somewhat universal. I'm
paraphrasing you said it, like in a much more cool way.
I'm working up my coolness to.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yell life, use me your goal for cool, right, it's
a it's a fairly low bar.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
But yeah, that's what I was reacting to when you
said that. And then literally you use the exact same
words as a woman who probably you've never ever crossed
path with. But this is part of the biological and
psychological risk that comes along with that first opioid prescription.
Like if we're not asking, we can do a risk
(10:28):
assessment on that. You know, you could have told me
your whole story up to that point, and before I
wrote that first prescription for opioids, I would have known
how much risk that carried for you, because I would
have known it was going to feel like a warm hug.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
I mean, I would gosh, I would love to think
that things are different now, right, this was this was
this was a while ago, right, and so, but yes,
it is like I said, you know, like in the
coolest way, I knew how all of our stories are unique,
(11:04):
but they are incredibly common. I am a garden variety addict,
and that is that's okay, right, because you know what
drives us into addiction, the things we do to feed
the addiction. You know, all of these things differ, you know, mostly,
(11:27):
but how it makes us feel, at least at first,
is pretty common. And you know, we're starving for that
warm embrace. We are starving to be taken outside of ourselves.
We are desperate for some kind of relief from whatever depression, anxiety, fear,
(11:51):
trauma we are dealing with. So when you feel that,
it's it feels like a like a a gift from God. Yeah,
and it feels like this release valve. You know, it's
finally been open. Once you feel it, you don't want
(12:13):
to stop feeling it. And that's you know, that's where
things get messy pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, you said, we're super sensitive about language. In the book,
you said, I'm a.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Garden variety addict. Your words, you just describe yourself. I think, really,
what you're describing is like garden variety human because you're
being stabbed and you're bleeding, right, And so I can't
remember who to attribute this to, but I thought it
was such an important metaphor the first time I saw it,
(12:45):
that said, like addiction is no more an abnormal response
to the trauma, the pain, the sense of not belonging,
the sense of not being normal, then bleeding is not
a normal response to being stabbed, right, And so while
it manifests differently in different ways, I think that is
(13:08):
also very guarded variety and very common.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
If you've had eight.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Years, sixteen years, twenty five years of constant pain, the
first thing that truly relieves that pain neurobiologically saved your life,
so of course you're going to set up that cycle
for going back.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And so I agree it's a part of the human condition.
It is as common, if not more common, frankly, than
lots of the diseases that are talked about, you know,
without stigma, association. And then to your point, you know,
(13:52):
you once you feel this relief, you I anyway got
to a place where where it became my only priority.
I can't even say my top priority. I feel like,
you know, uh, it became my only priority. Well, there
were I guess it's bifurcated, you know, there were you know,
(14:14):
different priorities wrapped up within that only priority. One was
was feeding what became a fairly profound addiction. Uh. And
then the other piece of that is is protecting the
discovery of it. Right and and this is was for
me anyway. It's solitary thing. You know. There there are
(14:37):
lots of people that you know, go out and want
to drink with their friends and and maybe over drink
or drink alcoholically, and you know you're out and about
and just you know, socializing, you know, as part of
your addiction. In my case, it was very solitary. It
was something that I really felt that I needed to protect.
(15:01):
My career at the time was skyrocketing, and you know,
there's this fear of discovery. The great thing was that
I didn't look like what I guess I thought people
would view the quintessential addict.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I didn't we say more about this, Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Didn't look like a junkie. Right. I was successful. I
was wearing a suit to work, I was earning great
money and living in a great part of town. I
so from a sort of socioeconomic standpoint, you know, I
(15:49):
didn't sort of necessarily check what would be the stereotypical boxes. Right. Yeah,
I'm a white man. And there's no doubt in my
mind that being a white man made it easier for
me to secure prescriptions and get them filled and and
(16:11):
and that's not where we want to be or where
we wanted to be anyway. Again, because this was in
the early, very early two thousands. Yeah, and I was
able to hide in plain sight for those reasons. You
wouldn't look at me and be like, there's something at
least sorry, that's almost a lie. At least in the beginning.
(16:33):
You wouldn't look at me and say, there's there's something
not right about this, you know. Uh and uh. And
I was able to con my way into what I
needed and wanted. Uh. And we're all con artists in
my view. If you're if you're hiding.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Meaning humans or we mean people, you know, I'm I
keep pussing you.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's a really good question. Certainly, addicts are gonna do
everything they can to not get caught and to make
sure that they're able to get what they need. And
so lying you know, becomes second nature, you know, like blinking.
(17:24):
You know, you don't even really think about it. You
just sort of do it. It's almost like a pathological response.
And this this you know, addiction for me, and I
think broadly speaking, you know, it's so powerful that any
lies or acts of deception, uh really don't matter, you know.
(17:48):
You sort of like I said, in my case, I
was really just prioritizing one thing, and so I would do.
I mean, I guess I you know, it wasn't about
to go rob a pharmacy. I thought about it, right,
I thought about like how amazing it would be to
be able to like, you know, break into a pharmacy
(18:09):
and just sort of like you know, Horde bottles and fills.
But you know, I didn't do it. What I was
doing was unlawful though I was feeling multiple prescriptions, I
was seeing multiple doctors. I drove down the Tijuana at
one point and bought a thousand tablets of extra strength
(18:33):
vicodin or vicodin es. And you know, I certainly wasn't
a saint, but I guess I drew the line at
you know, breaking and entering what we.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Spent a fair amount of time talking about what you're
talking about in the book, and starting with this concept
of what a person with addiction looks like and how
this is one of the things we need to unlearn
that we think we know, because really it's forty six
percent of people in America know someone who has this illness.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That's one and two.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
And so if you just look around, that's not the person,
like you said, who was homeless on the street lost
their job, like it is also the white man in
a suit driving a nice car going to work every day.
And even you said, I didn't look like quote a junkie.
We talk about the power of words, which is like
(19:31):
that person has the value of junk right, But what
we value here in America is a nice suit and
a job and a nice car. And so we're valuing
all of those things that you have, and that's putting
blinders on us to see how much you're struggling. You
(19:52):
caught yourself at one point and you said, I mean
in the beginning, So was there a point at which
people start to see your struggle?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I think so, I think it becomes all consuming and
and you know you're chasing something that you'll never catch again. Right,
that embrace that first embrace becomes the ideal, So it
it becomes a it's no longer like a treat or
(20:24):
it's not the relief that it was right. Uh, it
becomes your baseline, and it becomes how you need, like
what you need to do the bare minimum, right. So
I think in my case, the cracks started to show,
(20:45):
you know, maybe the lies started to get a little
repetitive or a little too ornate, or or my ability
to focus and be present and sort of shriveled down
to nothing essentially. So yes, I think to any you know,
(21:09):
kind of caring observer, it was it was clear there
was something wrong.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, it's an important emphasis, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
And then to the average person who knows, probably not right.
But to the people within in my orbit, people that
cared for me, loved me, depended on me, I was
I think obviously not present or dependable, reliable, responsible, sort
(21:43):
of a lot of words that ultimately mean the same thing.
And and I think that that became obvious. Yeah, ultimately.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
And so what led to your first step on the
recovery journey? Was it one of these caring observers? I
love that like using it going forward? Did anyone you know,
like know how to come to you and say hey,
I'm concerned or something else.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Not initially, I think initially I started getting a little
freaked out, and I realized that I was an addict,
and I realized that it was a problem, and I
realized that there was a good chance that I would die.
And I tried to stop many times, and I wanted
(22:39):
to stop before the discovery happened. Right, I made the
mistake that so many people make, I think, which is
thinking I could do it alone.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
And that you had to do it alone, right, because
you still have to protect.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
You still have to protect.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, and that is you know.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
That, that's because the stigma is real, deadly and and
you know, I mean, who in their right mind wouldn't
immediately reach out to their friends loved ones and say,
my god, I have diabetes. Oh my god, I have
this condition. Uh, you know, whatever the case may be, right, Like,
(23:21):
you don't hesitate to do that. You let's go. You
talk to your employer about it, You talk to your
loved ones, your family. Uh and uh, and people are
like rally around you and shower you with support and
of course love not that much. This is not that case,
(23:42):
and and that stigma to your point is what leads
to so many deaths and what kept me going for
another several years after I acknowledge to myself that I
had a problem and that I wanted to stop. And ultimately,
(24:03):
and I tried, right, I would, I would, I would
stop on my own and I just wouldn't be able
to do it. And sometimes it would be a week,
sometimes it would be a day, sometimes maybe a couple
of weeks at the most, and uh, and I would
would would fall right back, you know, into it. And
so it's not until I realized that not only did
(24:27):
I need help, but I also realized that there's this
huge network and community of people who are dying to help,
and and that is that this is the miracle of recovery.
Right now?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Did you come to know this, Dan, because somebody listening
doesn't know this.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Through a lot of pain and through a lot of fear,
but I I believe that reaching out for help is
what saved my life. And being pushed to get help,
(25:12):
you know, by people in my life, saved my life.
And not fighting them, not denying it, not trying to
keep the con going, but finally saying, okay, this is
bad because the reality is I should not be here
talking to you today. It is an absolute miracle that
(25:35):
I am alive today.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
That's how severe your illness was.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
It was so powerful. Yeah, I was taking massive amounts
of ovoids. But there's this help is out there, and
there are people that really truly do want to help.
And being on the receiving end of that feels wonderful.
(26:00):
But I will tell you, being on the giving end
of it feels even.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Better, even wonderfuler.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Even wonderfuller. Exactly, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So this is the perfect segue we talk about the
magic formula. So we started out talking about everybody's journey
into addiction is different though common garden variety themes, right,
and we collect those themes in the book into biological, psychological,
and environmental, with physical and cultural representing the environment.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And then we say, and so.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Of course it has to be that everybody's formula for
recovery is their own formula and can change over time.
So you just alluded to a big part of your formula,
which is the wonderfuller ability to give it back. Can
you talk to us about when you first started your
(27:00):
recovery journey, what were the pieces of your formula and
how has that changed to what it is today?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Sure, I believe that there's not just one path to
recover it, and so I want to I want to.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Say that, say it louder for the people in the back.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I can only talk about what I did and what
worked for me, but there's not a one size fits all,
And it's really important for me to stress that I
got into a twelve step program and worked those steps
(27:40):
and attended those meetings daily. It's important to say though that,
like I was ready, and you have to be ready.
In my opinion, you have to be ready to do
it for yourself. You can't do it for anyone else.
(28:04):
Other people can help you get there, other people can
push you. I believe in tough love. I believe in
you know, families and friends and colleagues, employers, whatever the
case may be, spouses, you know, pushing. But you will
only step toward it if you're ready to step toward it,
(28:26):
in my view, So I went into a twelve step
program and I went to meetings religiously. I started to
work the steps within that program and try to unpack
what was happening to me and why I was there.
(28:49):
And I used that program at least initially anyway, as
a substitute for using I would go I it became
my priority.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Did it become your warm embrace?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Ultimately? I think initially you're terrified. You walk into these
rooms and you're like, oh my god, you know, am
I like these people? And you realize, yes, hell, yes
I am. And so you know, there's there's a lot
of aside from the sort of acute physical symptoms, yeah,
(29:30):
the withdrawal symptoms that come with stopping taking opioids, then
there's just sort of like fear and shame, and you're
made to feel pretty comfortable very quickly in these rooms.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Are you comfortable sharing what twelve step program you did?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Sure? I went into alcoholics anonymous, and I identify as
an alcoholic. I don't, necessarily and guy ever drank alcoholically,
but I haven't had a drink in over sixteen years
(30:09):
and I haven't swelled, you know, I haven't taken any
drugs in over sixteen years, and I identify as an alcoholic.
And to your point, it does become your warm embrace
because you realize, a everyone's fucked up, we are all normal, right,
and that's that's the norm, right. And I was sort
(30:32):
of living under this sort of illusion, this idea that
I was missing a chip, you know, and it was
somehow broken. We're all broken in our own way, and
it manifests itself in us in different ways. This is
(30:55):
how it manifests itself in me, and so being with
people like me was incredibly and remains an incredibly comforting experience.
And this is true of this is why we have groups. Right, Oh,
(31:18):
this is a I'm a cancer survivor. There's a group
for that.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
And that's right, I'm you know whatever it is, you know,
and you know the comfort that you feel being a
part of this group is it's pretty miraculous.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Frankly, I love the way it lights up your face.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, this is the podcast, so people can't see it,
but literally you like brightens you up.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Well you think you know. It goes back to this
sort of stereotypical like idea of what an addict looks like.
And I've found myself building what I'm certain will be
lifelong friendships with people that if you saw us together
(32:09):
sitting in a restaurant, you might be like, what is
the situation with it? Like, like, what is this is
a real mixed bag? Right? And there was a guy
I got sober in New York. I was living in
New York City at the time. And for those that
know New York, if you you know, you walk through
(32:32):
Times Square, you got a million people coming up to
you asking you for you got like Elmo, you got
Spider Man, you got the Naked Cowboy? Yes, And you
also have lots of people coming up to you and
saying like, hey, do you like comedy, trying to get
you to go to a comedy show. You know, assuming
(32:52):
these comedy clubs just like go to Times Square and
like round up a bunch of tourists. So I was
sober probably for three four six months maybe, And my
office at the time was in Times Square, number four
Times Square, and I was going with a number of
(33:15):
colleagues to lunch and we had to cross through Times
Square to kind of ultimately get to where we were going.
And coming at us, we're all in suits, and you
know whatever coming at us as a guy's torn sweatshirt.
(33:37):
Jeans have even more holes in them than the sweatshirt missing, missing,
you know, a couple of kind of critical teeth and
comes up. He's holding a sign for a comedy show,
and I'm assuming everyone's mind was like, oh, here comes
this guy. And he comes up and he's like hey man.
(33:59):
I'm like hey, other hug, and like, how are you.
He's like, I'm great, man, I'm great, suns shining, I'm alive,
I feel good. I'm like, man, that's also it's great
to see you and keep walking and and the people
that are with me are.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Like, what the fuck was that?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
And I'm like, oh, that's that's my buddy, Rob, you know,
and you just kind of keep going and and this
you realize, you know, that being the same lies very
much below the surface has nothing to do with the
with the with the surface. And when you are looking
(34:40):
for help, the guy that's missing a couple of teeth
and as out trying to round people up to go
to a comedy show is as much, if not more,
the answer for you than than anyone else on the
face of the earth.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
You know, Yes, I love it. Oh look my hearts.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, video, I love it so much because at our
core belonging and like you said, below the surface, at
the deepest, most innate biological level, we are pack animals
that embrace matters, that belonging, matters that being seen and
(35:25):
being loved for who you are matters so far below
the surface, but in ways that are absolutely critical really
to survival.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
They are and if it's if people, and again listen,
you know, sadly, in twenty twenty four, I don't think
a ton has changed, right, But when I spoke earlier
about you know, being well dressed, and you know, having
a suit and a tie, and nice pur shoes, a
nice watch on my wrist, a nice job, very clear
(36:02):
advantages of at the time, certainly of being a white man.
All of that, right, if we think about it, you know,
all of that is utter nonsense, right, And you know,
I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to
(36:23):
help people understand that there's hope, yes, right. But if
I were to change the world, okay, you know it
would it would be it's these super simple lessons, the
same ones that I try to sort of impart on
my children. You know, don't judge a book by its cover,
Like you never know who's dealing with what, and you
(36:46):
never know who can help you, yep, And you never know,
truly ever know like who who are going to be
your lifelong friends? You just don't know. The male, female, black, white,
young old teeth, no teeth, It doesn't it doesn't matter.
And it's such a mistake to look at the world
(37:08):
that way, and so many people do. And I understand that,
and I'm not here to preach about that. I can
say that, you know, my experiences have in recovery with
the recovery community, which is vast and global and speaks
(37:28):
every language, have been some of the most amazing experiences
of my life.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, you took me to church right there. I was like, yes,
what else?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
But alas we are coming to the end of this conversation,
and so I like to ask everybody this question as
we're on the way out.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I opened up and introduced an addiction.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Unlearned what we think we know, and do the stigma
that's killing people, uncover the conversations we need to have.
And so I think we just had one of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So thank you. If there's one thing you want.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
To leave us with, one thing to unlearn, or one
stigma to undo, or one conversation to uncover, what would
you leave us with.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
I'll do I'm gonna do two.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
All right, I'll take to overachiever. It's fine.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
I would say, get past the fear and ask for help,
So be unafraid.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Okay, yes, fine.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
And the second thing I would say is, once you've
you're on that journey, and there's no finish line, right,
it's a daily journey. Once you're on that journey, everyone's
different about how vocal they want to be, and I
(39:01):
totally respect that. So talk to people in private if
that's where your comfort level takes you. Talk to people
in public, if that's where your comfort level takes you.
It shouldn't be easier to get the drug than it
is to get the treatment. Yes, and the more we
talk about it, the easier it'll be to get get
(39:25):
the treatment.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I love it. I got nothing to say after that. Amazing.
Thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
It has been fun. Thank you so much for having.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Me so good. Thank you so much for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
And if you like this episode, please check out my
book on addiction, Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save
a Life, available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, dot Org,
Union Squaring Company, Amazon.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
And wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
If you like to this episode, please share it with
someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please
subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review.
That helps us reach any and everyone who may be
looking for support in the face of addiction.
Welcome to Unaddictioned, the podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
Dan Perez is the author of As Needed for Pain,
a memoir released in twenty twenty that details his addiction
to opioids. Dan is well known for his tenure as
(00:47):
European editor at w magazine and editor of Details magazine.
He is currently the president of ad Age and Modern Healthcare.
This conversation was so awesome because Dan shares with us
the moment he took that first prescription opioid and the
experience that he had, which is such a human experience
(01:10):
all of us can relate to, but how that ultimately
turned into addiction, and then we spend so much time
on belonging. It was just a really great conversation. I
hope you'll enjoy it. Dan, Thank you for coming on
the podcast anyway, Dan, thank you so much for joining
me on the Unaddictioned podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Nice to meet you.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Likewise, nice to meet you. Thank you so much for having.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Me so super excited to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So the point of the podcast is to raise awareness
of my book, which is called Unaddictioned. What are the
things we need to unlearn that we think we know,
What are the stigmas we need to undo that are
killing people, what are the conversations we need to uncover?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And so On this podcast, we just have conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
With people who have had their own journey to recovery,
with the idea that everyone's journey is their own journey,
but there are some recurrent pieces and somebody might hear
something that resonates with them in the formula that you're using.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That they might try out. So that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
That's the aim, right, is to try to help even
one person, right, if you're lucky, it's more than one,
but you set the goal at one.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Right, exactly, one person at a time, one day at
a time.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So can you just tell us who is Dan?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Wow? That's that's a really complicated question.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I mean, I am a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I you know, it's a question that I struggled with
for a really long time, and I think it's a
question that I avoided answering for a really long time.
So I can tell you who I am today, and
I'm happy to tell you who I was. But I'm
(03:09):
a dad, I'm a brother, I'm a son, a friend,
I am a sponsor. I am a man in his
early fifties who was given a second chance, and I
(03:30):
am grateful for everything that I have in my life today.
I'm a journalist, I'm a media executive, and I am,
you know, in recovery and really proud of the fact
(03:50):
that I am sober today.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So talk to us about the journey to identify who
Dan is today. You kind of split us into two
epics for your life.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I think I did. I think lots of people, you know,
there are you know, every story is unique, you know,
but they're rarely super original, right you know? There's uh
do you want to disagree with it? I feel like
you're about the poke holes in that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Oh no, I felt myself agreeing with that, and I
was eagerly anticipating the double click.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Okay, okay, I, like so many other people, struggled to
understand who I was and that from a very very
young age, and felt like everyone else around me had
been given the owner's manual or some form of like
(04:47):
a blueprint, but when they got to me, they ran out.
I didn't get one. So I went through my life
for many, many, many years thinking everyone else around me
was normal and I wasn't, for whatever reason, deeply insecure,
(05:09):
not feeling like I fit in in any meaningful way
into friend groups, really any any kind of group. So
I pretended, and I can't remember a time when I
wasn't pretending. And my journey was it wasn't one of
(05:35):
self discovery. I think it was one of self loathing
and struggling for self esteem. And I escaped where I
could escape. In my case, I escaped into like fantasy
in some ways, you know, I escaped into magic. I
(05:55):
loved doing magic tricks, and I was I would you know,
for hour or is practice in front of the mirror.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And this is from how young, oh gosh, he began escaping,
I know, maybe seven or eight, yeah, little.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
And I was the younger brother, still am the younger brother.
Of like the town star when he was in high school.
You know, my brother, who is the world to me
and who is my best friend, and I couldn't be
more grateful to be His brother was the captain of
(06:33):
the sports team, was an a student, had tons of girlfriends,
and I was just this sort of you know, if
I wasn't Jeff's brother, two people I was. You know,
I didn't. I couldn't carve out an identity for myself,
and so I tried to hide in the shadows. And
(06:57):
you know, you kind of trip over some stuff in
this if you're not really paying attention. And I ultimately
tripped over some stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, how old were you the first time you tripped?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I probably first, probably thirteen or fourteen, when I first
tried smoking pot and cigarettes. Maybe sixteen or so, when
I maybe first had a drink, And those things were good.
They were temporary band aids, you know, I guess that's redundant.
(07:29):
Band aids are supposed to be temporary, and I was.
But I started to say, oh, like, oh, this feels good.
This is a nice little time out.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
From some relief.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's some relief from like an unrelenting fire hose of anxiety.
And fear and self doubt, right, and so it just
sort of shielded me from that from that stuff. When
I got into my twenties, and this is a pretty
com and tail, I injured my back and was introduced
(08:06):
to opiate prescription painkillers, and boy, that was like coming
home for me, you know, if I had been struggling
for you know, at that point, maybe twenty five years,
to understand who I was and to feel the warm
(08:26):
embrace of a group of friends, I felt that warm
embrace from these, from these pills, and they were just
the coziest blanket you could want for you could hope for,
excuse me, and I wrapped myself in it and finally
(08:50):
felt what I believed anyway at the time was normal.
Right Like I said I I would always it was normal,
and it was me and this made me feel normal,
and so I went all in.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And you know, what is so funny is not the
right word. I'll use it because that's the way we
use it. When you were describing the first time you
took those opioids, I was going to tell you a
story of a patient I had in the past, who
was a woman who said, when I first took that
(09:29):
pain pill also after an injury. It was like the
first time I had been wrapped in the hug I
had been needing my whole life.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
And then you literally.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Used exactly the same words. And so I think to
what you said when you first started sharing your story
with us. It's my story, but it's somewhat universal. I'm
paraphrasing you said it, like in a much more cool way.
I'm working up my coolness to.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yell life, use me your goal for cool, right, it's
a it's a fairly low bar.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
But yeah, that's what I was reacting to when you
said that. And then literally you use the exact same
words as a woman who probably you've never ever crossed
path with. But this is part of the biological and
psychological risk that comes along with that first opioid prescription.
Like if we're not asking, we can do a risk
(10:28):
assessment on that. You know, you could have told me
your whole story up to that point, and before I
wrote that first prescription for opioids, I would have known
how much risk that carried for you, because I would
have known it was going to feel like a warm hug.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
I mean, I would gosh, I would love to think
that things are different now, right, this was this was
this was a while ago, right, and so, but yes,
it is like I said, you know, like in the
coolest way, I knew how all of our stories are unique,
(11:04):
but they are incredibly common. I am a garden variety addict,
and that is that's okay, right, because you know what
drives us into addiction, the things we do to feed
the addiction. You know, all of these things differ, you know, mostly,
(11:27):
but how it makes us feel, at least at first,
is pretty common. And you know, we're starving for that
warm embrace. We are starving to be taken outside of ourselves.
We are desperate for some kind of relief from whatever depression, anxiety, fear,
(11:51):
trauma we are dealing with. So when you feel that,
it's it feels like a like a a gift from God. Yeah,
and it feels like this release valve. You know, it's
finally been open. Once you feel it, you don't want
(12:13):
to stop feeling it. And that's you know, that's where
things get messy pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, you said, we're super sensitive about language. In the book,
you said, I'm a.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Garden variety addict. Your words, you just describe yourself. I think, really,
what you're describing is like garden variety human because you're
being stabbed and you're bleeding, right, And so I can't
remember who to attribute this to, but I thought it
was such an important metaphor the first time I saw it,
(12:45):
that said, like addiction is no more an abnormal response
to the trauma, the pain, the sense of not belonging,
the sense of not being normal, then bleeding is not
a normal response to being stabbed, right, And so while
it manifests differently in different ways, I think that is
(13:08):
also very guarded variety and very common.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
If you've had eight.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Years, sixteen years, twenty five years of constant pain, the
first thing that truly relieves that pain neurobiologically saved your life,
so of course you're going to set up that cycle
for going back.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And so I agree it's a part of the human condition.
It is as common, if not more common, frankly, than
lots of the diseases that are talked about, you know,
without stigma, association. And then to your point, you know,
(13:52):
you once you feel this relief, you I anyway got
to a place where where it became my only priority.
I can't even say my top priority. I feel like,
you know, uh, it became my only priority. Well, there
were I guess it's bifurcated, you know, there were you know,
(14:14):
different priorities wrapped up within that only priority. One was
was feeding what became a fairly profound addiction. Uh. And
then the other piece of that is is protecting the
discovery of it. Right and and this is was for
me anyway. It's solitary thing. You know. There there are
(14:37):
lots of people that you know, go out and want
to drink with their friends and and maybe over drink
or drink alcoholically, and you know you're out and about
and just you know, socializing, you know, as part of
your addiction. In my case, it was very solitary. It
was something that I really felt that I needed to protect.
(15:01):
My career at the time was skyrocketing, and you know,
there's this fear of discovery. The great thing was that
I didn't look like what I guess I thought people
would view the quintessential addict.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I didn't we say more about this, Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Didn't look like a junkie. Right. I was successful. I
was wearing a suit to work, I was earning great
money and living in a great part of town. I
so from a sort of socioeconomic standpoint, you know, I
(15:49):
didn't sort of necessarily check what would be the stereotypical boxes. Right. Yeah,
I'm a white man. And there's no doubt in my
mind that being a white man made it easier for
me to secure prescriptions and get them filled and and
(16:11):
and that's not where we want to be or where
we wanted to be anyway. Again, because this was in
the early, very early two thousands. Yeah, and I was
able to hide in plain sight for those reasons. You
wouldn't look at me and be like, there's something at
least sorry, that's almost a lie. At least in the beginning.
(16:33):
You wouldn't look at me and say, there's there's something
not right about this, you know. Uh and uh. And
I was able to con my way into what I
needed and wanted. Uh. And we're all con artists in
my view. If you're if you're hiding.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Meaning humans or we mean people, you know, I'm I
keep pussing you.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's a really good question. Certainly, addicts are gonna do
everything they can to not get caught and to make
sure that they're able to get what they need. And
so lying you know, becomes second nature, you know, like blinking.
(17:24):
You know, you don't even really think about it. You
just sort of do it. It's almost like a pathological response.
And this this you know, addiction for me, and I
think broadly speaking, you know, it's so powerful that any
lies or acts of deception, uh really don't matter, you know.
(17:48):
You sort of like I said, in my case, I
was really just prioritizing one thing, and so I would do.
I mean, I guess I you know, it wasn't about
to go rob a pharmacy. I thought about it, right,
I thought about like how amazing it would be to
be able to like, you know, break into a pharmacy
(18:09):
and just sort of like you know, Horde bottles and fills.
But you know, I didn't do it. What I was
doing was unlawful though I was feeling multiple prescriptions, I
was seeing multiple doctors. I drove down the Tijuana at
one point and bought a thousand tablets of extra strength
(18:33):
vicodin or vicodin es. And you know, I certainly wasn't
a saint, but I guess I drew the line at
you know, breaking and entering what we.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Spent a fair amount of time talking about what you're
talking about in the book, and starting with this concept
of what a person with addiction looks like and how
this is one of the things we need to unlearn
that we think we know, because really it's forty six
percent of people in America know someone who has this illness.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That's one and two.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
And so if you just look around, that's not the person,
like you said, who was homeless on the street lost
their job, like it is also the white man in
a suit driving a nice car going to work every day.
And even you said, I didn't look like quote a junkie.
We talk about the power of words, which is like
(19:31):
that person has the value of junk right, But what
we value here in America is a nice suit and
a job and a nice car. And so we're valuing
all of those things that you have, and that's putting
blinders on us to see how much you're struggling. You
(19:52):
caught yourself at one point and you said, I mean
in the beginning, So was there a point at which
people start to see your struggle?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I think so, I think it becomes all consuming and
and you know you're chasing something that you'll never catch again. Right,
that embrace that first embrace becomes the ideal, So it
it becomes a it's no longer like a treat or
(20:24):
it's not the relief that it was right. Uh, it
becomes your baseline, and it becomes how you need, like
what you need to do the bare minimum, right. So
I think in my case, the cracks started to show,
(20:45):
you know, maybe the lies started to get a little
repetitive or a little too ornate, or or my ability
to focus and be present and sort of shriveled down
to nothing essentially. So yes, I think to any you know,
(21:09):
kind of caring observer, it was it was clear there
was something wrong.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, it's an important emphasis, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
And then to the average person who knows, probably not right.
But to the people within in my orbit, people that
cared for me, loved me, depended on me, I was
I think obviously not present or dependable, reliable, responsible, sort
(21:43):
of a lot of words that ultimately mean the same thing.
And and I think that that became obvious. Yeah, ultimately.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
And so what led to your first step on the
recovery journey? Was it one of these caring observers? I
love that like using it going forward? Did anyone you know,
like know how to come to you and say hey,
I'm concerned or something else.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Not initially, I think initially I started getting a little
freaked out, and I realized that I was an addict,
and I realized that it was a problem, and I
realized that there was a good chance that I would die.
And I tried to stop many times, and I wanted
(22:39):
to stop before the discovery happened. Right, I made the
mistake that so many people make, I think, which is
thinking I could do it alone.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
And that you had to do it alone, right, because
you still have to protect.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
You still have to protect.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, and that is you know.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
That, that's because the stigma is real, deadly and and
you know, I mean, who in their right mind wouldn't
immediately reach out to their friends loved ones and say,
my god, I have diabetes. Oh my god, I have
this condition. Uh, you know, whatever the case may be, right, Like,
(23:21):
you don't hesitate to do that. You let's go. You
talk to your employer about it, You talk to your
loved ones, your family. Uh and uh, and people are
like rally around you and shower you with support and
of course love not that much. This is not that case,
(23:42):
and and that stigma to your point is what leads
to so many deaths and what kept me going for
another several years after I acknowledge to myself that I
had a problem and that I wanted to stop. And ultimately,
(24:03):
and I tried, right, I would, I would, I would
stop on my own and I just wouldn't be able
to do it. And sometimes it would be a week,
sometimes it would be a day, sometimes maybe a couple
of weeks at the most, and uh, and I would
would would fall right back, you know, into it. And
so it's not until I realized that not only did
(24:27):
I need help, but I also realized that there's this
huge network and community of people who are dying to help,
and and that is that this is the miracle of recovery.
Right now?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Did you come to know this, Dan, because somebody listening
doesn't know this.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Through a lot of pain and through a lot of fear,
but I I believe that reaching out for help is
what saved my life. And being pushed to get help,
(25:12):
you know, by people in my life, saved my life.
And not fighting them, not denying it, not trying to
keep the con going, but finally saying, okay, this is
bad because the reality is I should not be here
talking to you today. It is an absolute miracle that
(25:35):
I am alive today.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
That's how severe your illness was.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
It was so powerful. Yeah, I was taking massive amounts
of ovoids. But there's this help is out there, and
there are people that really truly do want to help.
And being on the receiving end of that feels wonderful.
(26:00):
But I will tell you, being on the giving end
of it feels even.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Better, even wonderfuler.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Even wonderfuller. Exactly, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So this is the perfect segue we talk about the
magic formula. So we started out talking about everybody's journey
into addiction is different though common garden variety themes, right,
and we collect those themes in the book into biological, psychological,
and environmental, with physical and cultural representing the environment.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And then we say, and so.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Of course it has to be that everybody's formula for
recovery is their own formula and can change over time.
So you just alluded to a big part of your formula,
which is the wonderfuller ability to give it back. Can
you talk to us about when you first started your
(27:00):
recovery journey, what were the pieces of your formula and
how has that changed to what it is today?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Sure, I believe that there's not just one path to
recover it, and so I want to I want to.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Say that, say it louder for the people in the back.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I can only talk about what I did and what
worked for me, but there's not a one size fits all,
And it's really important for me to stress that I
got into a twelve step program and worked those steps
(27:40):
and attended those meetings daily. It's important to say though that,
like I was ready, and you have to be ready.
In my opinion, you have to be ready to do
it for yourself. You can't do it for anyone else.
(28:04):
Other people can help you get there, other people can
push you. I believe in tough love. I believe in
you know, families and friends and colleagues, employers, whatever the
case may be, spouses, you know, pushing. But you will
only step toward it if you're ready to step toward it,
(28:26):
in my view, So I went into a twelve step
program and I went to meetings religiously. I started to
work the steps within that program and try to unpack
what was happening to me and why I was there.
(28:49):
And I used that program at least initially anyway, as
a substitute for using I would go I it became
my priority.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Did it become your warm embrace?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Ultimately? I think initially you're terrified. You walk into these
rooms and you're like, oh my god, you know, am
I like these people? And you realize, yes, hell, yes
I am. And so you know, there's there's a lot
of aside from the sort of acute physical symptoms, yeah,
(29:30):
the withdrawal symptoms that come with stopping taking opioids, then
there's just sort of like fear and shame, and you're
made to feel pretty comfortable very quickly in these rooms.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Are you comfortable sharing what twelve step program you did?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Sure? I went into alcoholics anonymous, and I identify as
an alcoholic. I don't, necessarily and guy ever drank alcoholically,
but I haven't had a drink in over sixteen years
(30:09):
and I haven't swelled, you know, I haven't taken any
drugs in over sixteen years, and I identify as an alcoholic.
And to your point, it does become your warm embrace
because you realize, a everyone's fucked up, we are all normal, right,
and that's that's the norm, right. And I was sort
(30:32):
of living under this sort of illusion, this idea that
I was missing a chip, you know, and it was
somehow broken. We're all broken in our own way, and
it manifests itself in us in different ways. This is
(30:55):
how it manifests itself in me, and so being with
people like me was incredibly and remains an incredibly comforting experience.
And this is true of this is why we have groups. Right, Oh,
(31:18):
this is a I'm a cancer survivor. There's a group
for that.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
And that's right, I'm you know whatever it is, you know,
and you know the comfort that you feel being a
part of this group is it's pretty miraculous.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Frankly, I love the way it lights up your face.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, this is the podcast, so people can't see it,
but literally you like brightens you up.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Well you think you know. It goes back to this
sort of stereotypical like idea of what an addict looks like.
And I've found myself building what I'm certain will be
lifelong friendships with people that if you saw us together
(32:09):
sitting in a restaurant, you might be like, what is
the situation with it? Like, like, what is this is
a real mixed bag? Right? And there was a guy
I got sober in New York. I was living in
New York City at the time. And for those that
know New York, if you you know, you walk through
(32:32):
Times Square, you got a million people coming up to
you asking you for you got like Elmo, you got
Spider Man, you got the Naked Cowboy? Yes, And you
also have lots of people coming up to you and
saying like, hey, do you like comedy, trying to get
you to go to a comedy show. You know, assuming
(32:52):
these comedy clubs just like go to Times Square and
like round up a bunch of tourists. So I was
sober probably for three four six months maybe, And my
office at the time was in Times Square, number four
Times Square, and I was going with a number of
(33:15):
colleagues to lunch and we had to cross through Times
Square to kind of ultimately get to where we were going.
And coming at us, we're all in suits, and you
know whatever coming at us as a guy's torn sweatshirt.
(33:37):
Jeans have even more holes in them than the sweatshirt missing, missing,
you know, a couple of kind of critical teeth and
comes up. He's holding a sign for a comedy show,
and I'm assuming everyone's mind was like, oh, here comes
this guy. And he comes up and he's like hey man.
(33:59):
I'm like hey, other hug, and like, how are you.
He's like, I'm great, man, I'm great, suns shining, I'm alive,
I feel good. I'm like, man, that's also it's great
to see you and keep walking and and the people
that are with me are.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Like, what the fuck was that?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
And I'm like, oh, that's that's my buddy, Rob, you know,
and you just kind of keep going and and this
you realize, you know, that being the same lies very
much below the surface has nothing to do with the
with the with the surface. And when you are looking
(34:40):
for help, the guy that's missing a couple of teeth
and as out trying to round people up to go
to a comedy show is as much, if not more,
the answer for you than than anyone else on the
face of the earth.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
You know, Yes, I love it. Oh look my hearts.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, video, I love it so much because at our
core belonging and like you said, below the surface, at
the deepest, most innate biological level, we are pack animals
that embrace matters, that belonging, matters that being seen and
(35:25):
being loved for who you are matters so far below
the surface, but in ways that are absolutely critical really
to survival.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
They are and if it's if people, and again listen,
you know, sadly, in twenty twenty four, I don't think
a ton has changed, right, But when I spoke earlier
about you know, being well dressed, and you know, having
a suit and a tie, and nice pur shoes, a
nice watch on my wrist, a nice job, very clear
(36:02):
advantages of at the time, certainly of being a white man.
All of that, right, if we think about it, you know,
all of that is utter nonsense, right, And you know,
I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to
(36:23):
help people understand that there's hope, yes, right. But if
I were to change the world, okay, you know it
would it would be it's these super simple lessons, the
same ones that I try to sort of impart on
my children. You know, don't judge a book by its cover,
Like you never know who's dealing with what, and you
(36:46):
never know who can help you, yep, And you never know,
truly ever know like who who are going to be
your lifelong friends? You just don't know. The male, female, black, white,
young old teeth, no teeth, It doesn't it doesn't matter.
And it's such a mistake to look at the world
(37:08):
that way, and so many people do. And I understand that,
and I'm not here to preach about that. I can
say that, you know, my experiences have in recovery with
the recovery community, which is vast and global and speaks
(37:28):
every language, have been some of the most amazing experiences
of my life.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, you took me to church right there. I was like, yes,
what else?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
But alas we are coming to the end of this conversation,
and so I like to ask everybody this question as
we're on the way out.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I opened up and introduced an addiction.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Unlearned what we think we know, and do the stigma
that's killing people, uncover the conversations we need to have.
And so I think we just had one of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So thank you. If there's one thing you want.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
To leave us with, one thing to unlearn, or one
stigma to undo, or one conversation to uncover, what would
you leave us with.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
I'll do I'm gonna do two.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
All right, I'll take to overachiever. It's fine.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
I would say, get past the fear and ask for help,
So be unafraid.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Okay, yes, fine.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
And the second thing I would say is, once you've
you're on that journey, and there's no finish line, right,
it's a daily journey. Once you're on that journey, everyone's
different about how vocal they want to be, and I
(39:01):
totally respect that. So talk to people in private if
that's where your comfort level takes you. Talk to people
in public, if that's where your comfort level takes you.
It shouldn't be easier to get the drug than it
is to get the treatment. Yes, and the more we
talk about it, the easier it'll be to get get
(39:25):
the treatment.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I love it. I got nothing to say after that. Amazing.
Thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
It has been fun. Thank you so much for having.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Me so good. Thank you so much for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
And if you like this episode, please check out my
book on addiction, Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save
a Life, available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, dot Org,
Union Squaring Company, Amazon.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
And wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
If you like to this episode, please share it with
someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please
subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review.
That helps us reach any and everyone who may be
looking for support in the face of addiction.
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