May 21, 2024 • 39 mins
Zac Clark is a mental health, wellness, and addiction recovery advocate. As Founder and CEO of Release Recovery and the founding board member of the Release Recovery Foundation, Zac Clark is dedicated to providing comprehensive, innovative, and individualized care to all those in need who can't afford care, specifically folks in underserved communities. Zac talked openly about his addiction in S16 of ABC's The Bachelorette in 2020.
Follow Zac on IG: @zwclark
Learn about Release Recovery: https://releaserecovery.com/
Follow Release Recovery on IG: @releaserecovery
Email Release Recovery if you need help but can't afford it, or if you just want to talk: connect@releaserecovery.com
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Dr. Nzinga Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is out now! Order here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/
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If you'd like to watch our interviews, you can catch us on YouTube @unaddictionpod.
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If you or a loved one are experiencing addiction, have questions about recovery, or need treatment tailored to you, visit eleanorhealth.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief Medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
Zach Clark is a mental health, wellness and addiction recovery
advocate who talked openly about his addiction and recovery in
(00:44):
season sixteen of ABC's The Bachelorette. In twenty twenty, as
founder and CEO of Release Recovery and the founding board
member of the Release Recovery Foundation, Zach is dedicated to
providing comprehensive, individualized care, specifically to folks and underserved communities
who may not be able to afford it. We touch
on so much in this conversation, but I really want
(01:07):
to emphasize Zach's emphasis on the need to humanize the
recovery process with a focus on hope, connection, and community.
A holistic approach that includes sleep, mindfulness, spirituality, food, financial planning,
and most importantly fun. Zach, welcome to the show. Super
(01:29):
excited to have you on the Unaddictioned Podcast. I'll give
you a heads of like what we try to do here.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I'm in Zinga.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm a physician, my specialties of psychiatry and addiction medicine.
And in January now, so going into almost six months ago,
my first book came out. It's called Unaddictioned. Six mind
Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, and so we
started this podcast to try to have those conversations. And
(01:58):
really what it's about is this idea that there are
an infinite number of paths into addiction, and so there
have to be an infinite number of paths to recovery,
and that path can be ever evolving and changing. And
so we're just talking to people who've had their own
(02:18):
experience with the hope that like maybe somebody listening will
be like, oh, I haven't tried that that could work
for me, or I hadn't thought this was possible for me,
but I see myself or hear myself and that person.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So maybe it is, and so it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I love that, and I think my personal and professional experience,
I mean, I've seen I've seen it all work, and
I've seen it all not work, you know, and everything
in between. So I like that you talk about the
front end where it's like, you know, there's many many
ways to end up, where someone like me ends up
with a needle in my arm, but like, if that's
going to be the case, and there's got to be
(02:56):
some varying degrees of solutions to this whole.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Thing, so exactly, exactly, so I'll give you a heads up.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I almost never remember to do this.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So today is like go play the lottery, mark it
down in history day. At the end of the pod,
I'm going to ask you this question. So, un addiction
is a word that I'm made up, and it is
unlearned what you think you know about addiction. Undo the
stigma that's killing people, Uncover the conversations that could save
a life. So at the end of the pod, I'm
(03:27):
going to ask you if there's just one thing you
want to leave us with that you want people to
unlearn a stigma, to undo a conversation, to uncover what
is it? Okay, I see you thinking. Don't answer it now,
that's for the end, that's okay. Direction, right, So let's
just start with who is Zach Clark?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I mean that's a complicated question. There's days when
I feel like an alien on this planet, you know
what I mean. I mean the short answers. I grew
up in South Jersey, right outside of Philly. Beautiful upbringing,
and then at you know, I started messing around with
drugs and alcohol in high school, which was probably at
the time, felt very normal to me and it was.
(04:14):
And my path from there to the age of twenty seven,
where I was like strung out on drugs in Canada
New Jersey was one that I think we're seeing more
and more in this country, you know, like that early
introduction for whatever reason. And I had a you know,
brain surgery in there that kind of fed up my use.
And at the end of the day, you know, I
(04:36):
was saved. I was saved at twenty seven years old,
and I ended up moving to New York City, where
I've been for the last thirteen years, and you know,
maintaining my sobriety and now I work in the field.
I own a behavioral healthcare company, so Released Recovery. We
have sixty SEMIDD beds, highly structured kind of high end
(04:58):
transitional living beds thround New York's city in Westchester County.
We have a clinic up in Westchester, which is obviously
great bringing in the clinical and the medical components in
this whole thing, which we both know is so so
so important, you know, And like I think at the
end of the day, like what I really am is
like I'm a community builder, you know, Like that's what
(05:18):
I try to do. I try to build community and
make sure that no one's left behind. And so this
intersection at Release what we believe in is obviously like
the people doing the work and combining that with really
really good, you know, clinical expertise and understanding. Like you
said at the beginning that there's going to be a
lot of different ways that people figure this thing out.
(05:42):
And I always laugh because it's like, what's a positive
outcome in our work.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
You know, like, Okay, talk to me about this, Zach.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, I just think it's like, you know, look, I
can tell you my experience, right, I went to treatment
for four and a half months.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And what was treatment, Zach?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Because I don't want to make the assumption that people
listening know what you mean when you say.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Right, So I can be blunt. At twenty seven years old,
I was drinking around the clock. I had a needle
in my arm, and I had a crackpipe in my mouth,
and I had no hope. And that's a guy that
was growing up in South Jersey and wanted for nothing.
It had a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful family and home and
(06:28):
the whole thing. You get it. So I went to
substance abuse treatment at a place called Karen in Pennsylvania.
So I did a month of impatient and I did
three and a half months of extended care, which basically
means like around the clock. I was in therapy, individual therapy,
group therapy, psychiatry, and they took great care of me,
(06:52):
you know, And like I always share, and I don't
know who your listeners are, but like for me, I
just remember even being sat down on day three and
then saying like we're going to put you on this
medication called subtext. You're going to be on this. It's
going to help you not feel so sick from the
opioid withdrawals. And then we're going to slowly tytrate you off.
(07:14):
And so my story, I would say anyone would look
at it and say it's a positive outcome. Because I
left that treatment center, I moved to New York. I
got dialed into a recovery community here, which I'm still
involved in to this day, for fun and for free
and outside any of my professional work, that's what I
(07:35):
do for myself. But the biggest thing I think I've
learned is just because I did it this way doesn't
mean that someone else has to do it this way.
And just because I live in absinence based existence and
I choose to not drink and not do drugs, you know,
is it a positive outcome if someone you know is
(07:56):
like me at twenty seven years old and now they
can occasionally, I don't know, drink a glass of wine,
Like I know that's not my reality, but it might
be someone else's I don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
So yeah, I think it's a super strong call out.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And you kind of said it at the top also,
you were like, I've seen a million things work, and
I've seen a million things not work. And I think
part of a million things not working is this idea
is like this is the only way it can work,
And so you have to do this even if it's
not working for you. And like you said, kind of
that that definition of what does a good outcome look like?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So I'm super interested.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Language really matters, and we spend some time on it
in the book talking about the way we talk about
addiction and two people with addiction and about people with addiction.
The name of your program is Release, So talk to
me about that, says the psychiatrist.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I wish it was something. I wish it was something
to do this true story about the name companies. My
favorite band is a band called pro Jam, and my
favorite song is a song called Release. That's it.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
What is your favorite song?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Because it's a song I mean Eddie Bedder. It's a
song to his dad and it's a song about you know,
that relationship and my father and I have a very
special relationship and it's probably very different than the one
Eddie Vedder, who's the lead singer of pro Jam, had
with his dad. But like it just and there's a
line in that song that says, I'll ride the wave
where it takes me, you know, I'll hold heat, I'll
(09:32):
hold the pain release me. And so it's I just remember,
like listening to that song on repeat in early sobriety,
and here we are thirteen years later.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So, yeah, it's beautiful. See I'm a psychiatrist. You were like, no,
it's just my favorite song. I'm like, no, no, We're
gonna get to why this.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
That was beautiful. So you have a treatment for four months?
Do you mind?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And you can always tell me like yeah, I do.
My I know, I'm not going to answer that sharing
was there something that happened? What was the moment, like
how did you get to the point of saying I
want to and know how to reach out for help?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
And then how did you know where to reach Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
I mean I it's one you can ask me anything.
I mean, like, you know, my whole thing with any
podcast or interview I do is just like if we
help one person, we did our job. And I told
my story so much now that I feel like I
try not to make assumptions about what people know or
don't know. So my So, I had been to treatment
one time before for the thirty day and I had
(10:38):
that classic what I think what I believed to be
like classic first treatment experience where I went for thirty days.
I told all the counselors what they wanted to hear.
I was married at the time. We did a little
bit of family work, and I left that treatment center
and went right back to what I was doing. And
so about a year after that, I found myself, you know,
at my at my low point. You know, you talk
(11:00):
about the language that we use, and you know there's
all these clisic the rock bottoms of relapse, like all
these words that I think sometimes are these phrases that
I feel like kind of keep people drunk and high.
I mean, I just I just had so much shame, right,
Like I had some shame about the way that I
was living. And so what had happened is I'll never
(11:21):
forget it. We were at the Jersey Shore where it's
from my family vacations in the summer. It was late
August and there was a Hurricane Iris or tropicals from
coming through, and so I knew that I had to
leave the shore to go pick up because we were
going to get stuck down there, right And so I
(11:41):
like I kind of left my family drove up to
South Jersey to Camden, and that was kind of like
there was it was about a week's worth of time
or however long it was where I got a dui
and I got thrown into jail, and then I walked
out of jail, and like, it's just just chaos. And
so the final straw was I broke into my dad's
(12:03):
office and I sole a check and I had filled
out the check to myself, and I went into Camden,
which is where I was kind of like running around
getting high and selling drugs and doing the whole thing.
And I went into the bank. And whenever I tell
my story, I start with this story because it's just
(12:23):
one of kindness. It's just like one of like I
always laugh, I do this work. And a psychiatrist didn't
save my life. A clinician didn't save my life, you know,
A sponsor didn't save my life. A bank teller did
A bank teller, right, And so what happened was I
walked into this bank and Ronda Jackson was my earth Angel,
(12:44):
was sitting behind the counter. And I gave Ronda this
check and she kind of looked at me and she smiled,
and I thought she was going to go get my money,
and I kind of sat around waiting for her to
go get the five thousand dollars that I had to
made the check out for and he kind of came
back into like one minute, and she had a couple
of choices in that moment. She could have called the cops,
(13:05):
you know, she could have told her manager. But what
she did is she called my dad, and my dad
happened to be in his office and picked up the
phone and drove down to the bank. And you know,
fifteen twenty minutes later, while I'm still kind of like
waiting for this money because I had no other options, right, like,
would either get this money or go go rob someone.
(13:27):
And so he came in the bank and put his
arm on my arm and said, so we're going home,
and then you know, that's the story, that's the chills, right,
And so we went home, and I was in Karen
a couple days later, and I haven't turned back. I mean,
and I'm just sitting in New York now and Karen's
gala is this week and I'm the chair of their
(13:49):
New York Advisory Board and I'm on their board of trustees.
And it's just like so crazy to me what we're
able to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
So yeah, I love So it started with kindness, and
you never know when you'll be that person, right, like
people expect the doctor to do it.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
People expect the psychiatrists to do it, people expect the
therapists to do it. And we don't always do it,
to be clear, But that Banker right, And this is
one of the central this is actually the central theme
of the book. An addiction is that compassion and that kindness.
And you said it earlier community, right. So one of
(14:32):
the things that I want us to unlearn is that
you have to cut people off for them to make
the decision to get better.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
It's dangerous.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And one of the stigmas I want us to undo is,
like you said, you have to let people hit rock bottom, right,
because for a lot of people, the bottom rock is dead,
and we're not trying to wait for people to hit that.
And I think, like, you never know when you might
be the person that does that small act of kindness
(15:02):
that completely starts a new path. So thank you, Ronda.
So Rnda calls your dad. Dad comes and picks you up,
and so again the importance of this dad relationship. And
then we go into recovery. So we have this concept
in the book. It's called the magic formula. I started
with there are a million, you know, infinite paths in
(15:23):
and so there have to be infinite paths out.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And it's this idea.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Kind of the framework is like, there are biological risks
that you inherit. There are psychological things in childhood that
increase risk, there are social, cultural environmental things that increase risk,
and then as we go through life those repeat. Right,
So you had a brain surgery, which became another biological
risk factor for you. Psychologically, social, environmentally, you start hanging
(15:50):
out in Camden, like all of these all of these
things add on and so the magic formula is like,
look at your set of factors and what's meaningful to
you you and what brings purpose to your life and
the community you surround yourself with, and you make your
magic formula for recovery. And so can you talk to
(16:11):
us about what magic formula you initially came out of
Karen with and what your formula is today and if
that has changed over time?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think just hearing you
talk about that, like, you know, for me, whenever I'm
working with our patients or our clients, I'm always amazing
how resilient they are, you know, the the adoption, the
sexual abuse, the things that have happened. The traumas that
have happened to these people that we work with on
(16:43):
a daily basis is far beyond any And I didn't
like I always kind of say, like I just love
the party. I mean that was just it was just
in my DNA and it sucked me up. And no, yes,
I think when I got to the brain tumor and
some of the other things, like I started to you know,
acquire some things that we're probably gonna make it a
little bit more challenging for me to get out of
(17:06):
the cycle without some real help. But I just I
love that you're like kind of hitting on that that
there's all these different ways that we can get to
where we get like and it doesn't really matter. But
for me, I'm gonna try not and go my soapbox here,
like I.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Think, oh, soapboxes are welcome.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Well, look, I mean I think treatment stinks. I think
we're doing ourselves like a major disservice. And you know,
for me, so much of what I needed when I
was going through the process was hope, you know. And
like there's so many of these places that I've toured thousands,
not own hundreds of treatments, thousands is that sets a
(17:45):
lot hundreds of treatment centers in our in our country,
and most of these places you walk in and you
feel like you're walking into like yeah, there's some decent
food and like you know, but like for the most part,
it's like I'm walking into the end of my life.
Don't feel it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel like
there's actually something that I'm gonna be able to look
(18:06):
forward to. Yes, And so for me, I'm grateful for
my four and a half months at Karen and Karen
I think historically is one of the better treatment centers,
you know, better treatment centers, and they take a very
kind of like abstinence based twelve step approach. They've gotten
into the medication as system treatment since since I was there,
and obviously opened their minds up a little bit. But
(18:30):
when I got out, I'll never forget the email, this
piece of paper, and it was kind of like, you know,
go to some of these meetings and meet some of
these people, you know, go see this psychiatrist. So I
was on davatroll for probably eight or nine months when
I got out of treatment, which was really helpful. But
my magic formula was like I'm going to try this thing,
(18:52):
and I'm going to prove everyone that, prove everyone wrong.
This is not gonna work for me. And so I
moved to New York City and I started just trying
to connect. It was that human connection, and I had
to see it with my own two eyes that there
was more going on here than a bunch of people
hanging out in the church basement. There was more going
(19:12):
on here than me sitting in a therapist's office crying
my eyes out. And so early on it was all
about community, self reflection and actually doing the work. And
like there's this prayer you know in the rooms of
AA that I heard early on. It's called the set
aside prayer, and basically what they're saying is like, set
(19:33):
aside anything you think you know about recovery, this process,
the people you're going to meet, and keep an open mind.
And I was able to do that just long enough
where like this thing got me in, this way of
life got me. But then I started to incorporate some
of the like the holistic stuff, right, So I started
doing yoga, I started working out, I started eating healthy.
I started to prioritize my sleep. And that's the piece
(19:56):
of treatment where I think we're missing it. But then
I started to incorporate some of the like the holistic stuff, right.
So I started doing yoga, I started working out, I
started eating healthy. I started to prioritize my sleep. And
that's the piece of treatment where I think we're missing it.
You know, there's all this stuff going on right now
with coal plunders and saunas and your diet and your sleep,
(20:18):
And why are we not focusing on that stuff in treatment?
It's like I always yell about in high school, they
didn't ever set us down and give us like a
financial literacy class, like teach us the value of a dollar. Yeah,
And I'm like, why not in treatment are we not
like doing these things that we know are going to
help us have a better chance at recovering. So my
(20:40):
magic formula was like basically the community and the self
work and the healing and the therapy in conjunction with
this kind of like holistic approach of you know, mind, body, spirit.
If you will, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Giving you a megaphone for this soapbox because I'm I
don't know, I might accidentally nud you off.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
We're like fighting to stand on top of the soapbox.
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
And starting with like you said community as your core,
but you were like I needed some hope, and it
is so important you think about even just the physical
spaces that we're sending people in to get help, and
like you go into a dreary, sad, old space where
(21:29):
you know the team is tired and the protocols are tired,
and like where is the sunshine, Where is the hope?
Where is that holistic attention to you as a person,
And like we say, like what percent of your time
do you actually spend in the office of a professional
(21:50):
in your life? A sliver and so we can't imagine
that's what it is. It has to be this entire life.
I'm gonna take a little bit of a it's not
non sequitur, but because it's like a little related. But
my youngest son just graduated from high school and this
is now three years ago. He was a sophomore and
a friend of mine is an education activist and she
(22:14):
always talks about centering the voice of the young people,
like the kids in learning, how to make the educational
system better. And so this is to your point, like
why are there not cold plunges and yoga and mindfulness
and meditation and reiki, like all of these and nutrition
and financial planning, like all of these things that we
know equip people to believe and start achieving more and
(22:38):
have hope that there's something more. And so she was
just doing this lightweight survey of high school kids, and
so I asked my son. We're driving home, and I'm like,
what's the one thing the school system could change that
would increase the number of kids that graduate high school?
Make it a better experience for you? On the way,
(22:59):
I had like so many ideas about what he was
going to say, and he was like, the food needs
to be more delicious. And I was like, like, at
first I balked a little bit on the inside, but
the whole point of this is like hear the voice
of the person the system is supposedly serving, and I'm like,
tell me more about that. And he's like, when the
(23:20):
portions are too small and you're hungry and the food
is nasty and you don't want to eat it anyway,
and then you just feel like you're like slopping through
food out a jail. He was like, that.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Doesn't make me want to come to school.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
And this is what you're saying, Like we need spaces
we need to think even beyond the traditional Vivatrol is amazing, Yes,
therapy we need it, of course, twelve step programs and
community love it, right, but like, what are the other
things that are so basic to just a good experience
(23:54):
to help people stay tethered in.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
No, I mean rehabilitation, Like we are rehabilitating ourselves right, Like, yes,
that is what I like when you really think about
that word for me, And look, I understand that people
who come into treatment centers like I did are are broken,
and they're going to be lacking motivation and there's going
(24:19):
to be a period of time where they can't do
much of anything. But once we move past that initial
kind of like ICU moment, you know, really paying attention,
listening to what that person is saying and encouraging them
to if they walk ten steps one day, let's do
twenty tomorrow. You know. I think a lot of people
(24:40):
get well and are alone and then eventually they're back
to that old behavior because they're not actually doing it
with someone. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Alone is super dangerous.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I mean I talk about this in a lot of
different contexts, just like through my professional and personal life.
But like neurobiologically speaking, a pack animals. Like, literally, you
look at that pathway in our brain that tells us
you need that to survive, and one of the natural
most strongest stimuli of that signal is nurturing and connection.
(25:14):
And so without that and just even going beyond addiction
and substance use disorders, just like health period, we actually
need connection and community.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
So let's get out there.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's why I always tell people, no, I mean, that's
why always tell people are trying to get sober, trying
to get I mean, like you have this built in
thing that not the normally normal people don't have a
place where they can just go and connect with people.
Like how cool is it that you have this community
that you can tap into at any moment. You know,
obviously there's stigma around what that community might mean to
(25:47):
someone who's in early recovery and the label they're going
to put on themselves. But if they can get past that,
like it's I've met the coolest people and the smartest
people in the world in my recovery circles.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
So let's kind of like bring it down from this
conceptual like, Okay, we need community, we need connection, we
need holistic care. You kind of gave us a list
on holistic approaches, but like, talk to us about in
real life, like day to day what are you doing
that is intentionally keeping community in your life, because I
(26:23):
want people to be like, don't try that.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm a runner. So the running
community is very similar to the recovery community. Inclusive, loving, kind,
goal oriented. That's a huge part of my daily life,
like being in the center of the recovery community. I
still do therapy once a week. That's a huge that's
(26:47):
a huge thing for me. I've never I've never cheated
on that idea that it doesn't work. I'm still very
active in the in the fellowship that I found helpful
to me early on, and I'm I'm there the same
way I was there from day one, and I just
like it's worked for me. And and you know, there's
(27:07):
parts of that that you know, I hold close to myself.
But I'll say there's there are groups, and there are
people out there where you can go and they don't
want to know anything about you other than that you
you know, don't want to drink and do drugs. And
for me, that has been very beneficial.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You know, and then that I want to be I
want to call it by name if we can, Like,
is it a twelve step fellowship.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Where you are Yeah, we can, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Just you know, don't have to. That's the other thing. No,
I mean, look, that's the other thing that I think,
Like it's twenty twenty four, and it's hard for me
because like for me, twelve step recovery is sacred and
I've never I've never. I mean you asked, so I'll
tell like it's sacred, you know, And there's a set
of traditions in those rooms that you know, I hold
very close to my heart. And so on one hand,
(28:00):
I want to scream at the top of my lungs
like how powerful my experience in those rooms have been.
And on the other hand, you know, I want to
protect what goes on there. And so it's it's kind
of this double edged thing where I've spent the last
thirteen years like navigating it to the best of my ability,
(28:21):
and then when I was thrown into the public eye,
I had to really think about, Okay, how do I
want to communicate my story and my experience to the world.
And I do the best I can. That's it.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You know, no, definitely hurt.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Okay, you were about to say something else before I interrupted.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
No, So it's you know, it's therapy, it's it's it's
it's you know, it's my meetings, it's it's fitness and
the running community. And then obviously for me, what's a
little bit different is my work is rooted. So I work.
You know, we have eighty something employees that release recovery,
you know, probably fifty at EMMA in recovery. You know,
I'm around folks every day who are who are new,
(29:03):
and so the thing that I think we oftentimes forget about.
So if I put my work and my job over here,
that's fine, right, But I think the two things that
maybe don't get enough airtime is one service, you know,
this whole idea that like giving back, right, and that
(29:24):
doesn't have to be in this recovery world. Go being
the homeless or volunteer with an organization, walk some dogs, pets, whatever.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
But like, wherever your passion is.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Service is huge for me. And then yeah, spirituality, you know,
like I think prayer, meditation, some of the work we
can do there is really really powerful and oftentimes kind
of just brush to the side. So if I had
to say, it's like community service, spirituality, therapy, and then
(29:59):
just having some fun. Man, Like this thing is not
that serious, Like we gets over to have fun.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, I love it. I love it, especially that last
one on fun. So it reminds me. In one of
the earlier podcasts, talk to Jason Williams, who runs an
adventure recovery program down in Florida, that it's literally like
yah high adrenaline adventure is like fun, he said when
he was sharing his recovery story.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
One of the.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Biggest barriers he had to the idea of recovery is
that he thought, how will I ever be able to
have fun again if I'm not drinking.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, it's almost like you got to fool people into
it because like you hear the word fun when you're
five days sober, I'm like, that's yeah, that's horrible. You know.
It's like it's like so it's like we got to
try and make this thing look some way and for
people to come in and then get a guy like
me who's you.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Know, I will say fun runs through that exact same
neurobiological pathway as does nurturing, which is our survival pathway.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So like we literally need it. We literally need it neurobiologically. Okay,
time flies, this is amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
We're like already forty minutes in, which means we're getting
close to the end. Before I ask you the last question,
which I gave you a heads up on at the beginning,
but gave you no time to think through with us,
like my little trick, anything else you were hoping to
share when you came on today that you want to
(31:36):
make sure people walk away with.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I just appreciate what you're doing. I think for me
and I talked about this. We had our gala for
we have a nonprofit too, which you know basically just
raises money to help people go get treatment. It's that simple.
I'll send you some information on it. Yeah, I refoundation.
So literally, if you have someone that calls you in Canada,
(31:58):
like we're put and people in treatment and giving them
the same experience that I had. But we had our
gallo last weeks ago. I was thinking about, like, really,
what do I want to say to the world right now?
Like what do I want the world to hear? And
you know, it kind of just came to me that like,
and it probably wasn't an original thought because they never are.
But like loneliness right now, I believe is the biggest
(32:22):
killer in our country and we don't want to acknowledge that.
And so when someone when there's like one of these
behavioral healthcare crisis is like an overdose or a death
by suicide, like those people, they're dying alone. And the
way that we combat that, truly is everything that we
(32:43):
talked about here today is like community and in stilling
hope and having fun. As cheesy as it sounds, like,
that's what life is all about. So that's it. Like
if you're listening to this and you're curious, or you're
scared of or you have old ideas around what you
think for recovery or mental health or any of this stuff,
means like they'll knock it before you try it, Like
(33:04):
keep an open mind. And if I can give you
a little dose of inspiration. I mean, the last thirteen
years of my life, I've been beautiful and I get
to speak to people like doctor Harrison or much smarter
than me and just try to make a little better place.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
So I love it. I love it all right. So
we'll run into our closer.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I meant to say, and I forgot to say it
when you were talking. But I loved the way you
kind of got this light and smile on your face
when you mentioned your spirituality.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
It was actually really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
So, running into our last question, if there's and it
doesn't have to be one of each, it could just
be one.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You can tell us whatever you want to tell us.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
One thing you want people to unlearn that they think
they know about addiction or recovery, or one stigma that's
killing people that you want us to work hard to undo.
Or one conversation that people don't know how to have
or are afraid to have that you think if we
could just uncover that conversation, we would save lives.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
What comes to mind?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Yeah, I mean I think there's two things that I
want to talk about here, because the last part, you know,
is really about the family members. I think the family members,
especially in our work, are delta really tough hand, you know,
and they oftentimes are left behind because like someone like me,
I go to treatment for four months, I get this
like college degree or this semester's worth of like therapy,
(34:34):
and they're like, well what about me? You know? And
so I think the one thing for the family members
that I would like to say is kind of like
hang in there and do your own work. And you know,
like I think you alluded to it, like I'm never
going to tell a mom to put her kid on
the street, you know, like that's just not I'm not
(34:56):
a parent. One and two like until you're putting that situation,
you don't really know how it feels. And so like
I have a lot of compassion for the fam members,
and I would just encourage them that if you're asking
your loved one to do this work, then maybe you
should kind of take a look at look at it too,
and it might help you in some of your communication
and then you know, overall success of the family's recovery.
(35:18):
And then the second part is surround the thing that
I want, like my dream. And this is just like
over my years of experience, like the things that I've
heard over and over again, like how do I date
in sobriety? How do I have fun in sobriety? My
life's over, you know, like I have to hang out
(35:39):
with these people that don't drink the rest of my life,
and how do I hang out with old friends? And
you know, my hope or the thing that I would
want to destigmatize. It's just the fact that like I
believe our world is ready for this, Like I believe
our world is moving towards a culture that really highlights
(36:00):
the benefits of not drinking and not doing drugs and
being sober and wellness and longevity and so like, the
only way I can really say it is we had
that galo that I was talking to you about two
weeks ago, and we had it at a nightclub in
New York City at Tale Downtown, and we had seven
hundred people there and not everyone there was sober, and
there was alcohol being served. And you know, we were
(36:23):
very clear about that upfront, because we want to show
people like myself who are in recovery that they can
walk into any room anywhere and feel a part of
regardless of whether they have a cost seller or not.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And that's yes, So yes, that brought me life.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I talked to I can't remember because I get to
talk to a lot of people, which is amazing. I
think it was Derek Brown and he was like, you know,
bars need to be inclusive, Like you don't have to
drink if you come in the bar, there is a
place for you in the bar if you don't drink.
And I know that's like controversial because for some people
(37:04):
who won't be safe to walk in the bar, But
it's really that sense of belonging.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Like you said right, like you can be giving and
you can belong.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Giving me, giving the person jurisdiction and the ability to
make decisions like agency and be curious about this, like
there are absolutely people that are going to say, for
the rest of my life, I'm going to be uncomfortable
going into bars. For me, I needed that. I needed
to feel that energy despite the fact that I wasn't
drinking or doing drugs, you know, like I needed the
(37:36):
opposite experience. And like when my family said, hey, you're
coming home for Thanksgiving, like, what do you want us
to do about the drinking? I said to them, drink
like you would normally drink, because I don't want to.
I don't want to make myself feel any worse than
I already do. That now my decisions are impacting the
way that you're living, which might be different than the
next person who said, yeah, mom, I love it if
(37:57):
you put the alcohol away, that's right, that's.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Both yeah, oh so good, so good. I appreciate the
shout out to the family. I'm just gonna drop a
support system here that I absolutely love. That's for families
because spot on so right and for families other loved
ones support system. You do have your own recovery journey,
(38:19):
and so it's called We the Village dot co dot
com dot co We the Village. It is specifically for families. So, Zach,
this was amazing.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
If you want to connect with me, it's Zach at
Release Recovery dot com. I answer my emails and we
have a team on that stuff. We live in a
social world, so if you want to hit us there,
it's ZW Clark on Instagram and then Release Recovery on Instagram.
You can dm us, you can meet whatever you're comfortable with.
H we will respond to you, and the website is
(38:54):
www dot Release Recovery dot com. And our promise that
we're going to respond to every phone call and message
we get because someone did that for us at one point.
So thank you. I'm very grateful for your time and
your questions and your thoughtfulness and just everything that you're
doing to kind of allow people like me and other
professionals to be curious and do this work together. We're
(39:17):
going to need it.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Thank you so much for tuning in, and if you
liked this episode, please check out my book on addiction,
Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available
at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon, and.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
If you like to this episode, please share it with
someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please
subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review
that helps us reach any and everyone who may be
looking for support in the face of addiction.
Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief Medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
Zach Clark is a mental health, wellness and addiction recovery
advocate who talked openly about his addiction and recovery in
(00:44):
season sixteen of ABC's The Bachelorette. In twenty twenty, as
founder and CEO of Release Recovery and the founding board
member of the Release Recovery Foundation, Zach is dedicated to
providing comprehensive, individualized care, specifically to folks and underserved communities
who may not be able to afford it. We touch
on so much in this conversation, but I really want
(01:07):
to emphasize Zach's emphasis on the need to humanize the
recovery process with a focus on hope, connection, and community.
A holistic approach that includes sleep, mindfulness, spirituality, food, financial planning,
and most importantly fun. Zach, welcome to the show. Super
(01:29):
excited to have you on the Unaddictioned Podcast. I'll give
you a heads of like what we try to do here.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I'm in Zinga.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm a physician, my specialties of psychiatry and addiction medicine.
And in January now, so going into almost six months ago,
my first book came out. It's called Unaddictioned. Six mind
Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, and so we
started this podcast to try to have those conversations. And
(01:58):
really what it's about is this idea that there are
an infinite number of paths into addiction, and so there
have to be an infinite number of paths to recovery,
and that path can be ever evolving and changing. And
so we're just talking to people who've had their own
(02:18):
experience with the hope that like maybe somebody listening will
be like, oh, I haven't tried that that could work
for me, or I hadn't thought this was possible for me,
but I see myself or hear myself and that person.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So maybe it is, and so it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I love that, and I think my personal and professional experience,
I mean, I've seen I've seen it all work, and
I've seen it all not work, you know, and everything
in between. So I like that you talk about the
front end where it's like, you know, there's many many
ways to end up, where someone like me ends up
with a needle in my arm, but like, if that's
going to be the case, and there's got to be
(02:56):
some varying degrees of solutions to this whole.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Thing, so exactly, exactly, so I'll give you a heads up.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I almost never remember to do this.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So today is like go play the lottery, mark it
down in history day. At the end of the pod,
I'm going to ask you this question. So, un addiction
is a word that I'm made up, and it is
unlearned what you think you know about addiction. Undo the
stigma that's killing people, Uncover the conversations that could save
a life. So at the end of the pod, I'm
(03:27):
going to ask you if there's just one thing you
want to leave us with that you want people to
unlearn a stigma, to undo a conversation, to uncover what
is it? Okay, I see you thinking. Don't answer it now,
that's for the end, that's okay. Direction, right, So let's
just start with who is Zach Clark?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I mean that's a complicated question. There's days when
I feel like an alien on this planet, you know
what I mean. I mean the short answers. I grew
up in South Jersey, right outside of Philly. Beautiful upbringing,
and then at you know, I started messing around with
drugs and alcohol in high school, which was probably at
the time, felt very normal to me and it was.
(04:14):
And my path from there to the age of twenty seven,
where I was like strung out on drugs in Canada
New Jersey was one that I think we're seeing more
and more in this country, you know, like that early
introduction for whatever reason. And I had a you know,
brain surgery in there that kind of fed up my use.
And at the end of the day, you know, I
(04:36):
was saved. I was saved at twenty seven years old,
and I ended up moving to New York City, where
I've been for the last thirteen years, and you know,
maintaining my sobriety and now I work in the field.
I own a behavioral healthcare company, so Released Recovery. We
have sixty SEMIDD beds, highly structured kind of high end
(04:58):
transitional living beds thround New York's city in Westchester County.
We have a clinic up in Westchester, which is obviously
great bringing in the clinical and the medical components in
this whole thing, which we both know is so so
so important, you know, And like I think at the
end of the day, like what I really am is
like I'm a community builder, you know, Like that's what
(05:18):
I try to do. I try to build community and
make sure that no one's left behind. And so this
intersection at Release what we believe in is obviously like
the people doing the work and combining that with really
really good, you know, clinical expertise and understanding. Like you
said at the beginning that there's going to be a
lot of different ways that people figure this thing out.
(05:42):
And I always laugh because it's like, what's a positive
outcome in our work.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
You know, like, Okay, talk to me about this, Zach.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, I just think it's like, you know, look, I
can tell you my experience, right, I went to treatment
for four and a half months.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And what was treatment, Zach?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Because I don't want to make the assumption that people
listening know what you mean when you say.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Right, So I can be blunt. At twenty seven years old,
I was drinking around the clock. I had a needle
in my arm, and I had a crackpipe in my mouth,
and I had no hope. And that's a guy that
was growing up in South Jersey and wanted for nothing.
It had a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful family and home and
(06:28):
the whole thing. You get it. So I went to
substance abuse treatment at a place called Karen in Pennsylvania.
So I did a month of impatient and I did
three and a half months of extended care, which basically
means like around the clock. I was in therapy, individual therapy,
group therapy, psychiatry, and they took great care of me,
(06:52):
you know, And like I always share, and I don't
know who your listeners are, but like for me, I
just remember even being sat down on day three and
then saying like we're going to put you on this
medication called subtext. You're going to be on this. It's
going to help you not feel so sick from the
opioid withdrawals. And then we're going to slowly tytrate you off.
(07:14):
And so my story, I would say anyone would look
at it and say it's a positive outcome. Because I
left that treatment center, I moved to New York. I
got dialed into a recovery community here, which I'm still
involved in to this day, for fun and for free
and outside any of my professional work, that's what I
(07:35):
do for myself. But the biggest thing I think I've
learned is just because I did it this way doesn't
mean that someone else has to do it this way.
And just because I live in absinence based existence and
I choose to not drink and not do drugs, you know,
is it a positive outcome if someone you know is
(07:56):
like me at twenty seven years old and now they
can occasionally, I don't know, drink a glass of wine,
Like I know that's not my reality, but it might
be someone else's I don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
So yeah, I think it's a super strong call out.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And you kind of said it at the top also,
you were like, I've seen a million things work, and
I've seen a million things not work. And I think
part of a million things not working is this idea
is like this is the only way it can work,
And so you have to do this even if it's
not working for you. And like you said, kind of
that that definition of what does a good outcome look like?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So I'm super interested.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Language really matters, and we spend some time on it
in the book talking about the way we talk about
addiction and two people with addiction and about people with addiction.
The name of your program is Release, So talk to
me about that, says the psychiatrist.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I wish it was something. I wish it was something
to do this true story about the name companies. My
favorite band is a band called pro Jam, and my
favorite song is a song called Release. That's it.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
What is your favorite song?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Because it's a song I mean Eddie Bedder. It's a
song to his dad and it's a song about you know,
that relationship and my father and I have a very
special relationship and it's probably very different than the one
Eddie Vedder, who's the lead singer of pro Jam, had
with his dad. But like it just and there's a
line in that song that says, I'll ride the wave
where it takes me, you know, I'll hold heat, I'll
(09:32):
hold the pain release me. And so it's I just remember,
like listening to that song on repeat in early sobriety,
and here we are thirteen years later.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So, yeah, it's beautiful. See I'm a psychiatrist. You were like, no,
it's just my favorite song. I'm like, no, no, We're
gonna get to why this.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
That was beautiful. So you have a treatment for four months?
Do you mind?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And you can always tell me like yeah, I do.
My I know, I'm not going to answer that sharing
was there something that happened? What was the moment, like
how did you get to the point of saying I
want to and know how to reach out for help?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
And then how did you know where to reach Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
I mean I it's one you can ask me anything.
I mean, like, you know, my whole thing with any
podcast or interview I do is just like if we
help one person, we did our job. And I told
my story so much now that I feel like I
try not to make assumptions about what people know or
don't know. So my So, I had been to treatment
one time before for the thirty day and I had
(10:38):
that classic what I think what I believed to be
like classic first treatment experience where I went for thirty days.
I told all the counselors what they wanted to hear.
I was married at the time. We did a little
bit of family work, and I left that treatment center
and went right back to what I was doing. And
so about a year after that, I found myself, you know,
at my at my low point. You know, you talk
(11:00):
about the language that we use, and you know there's
all these clisic the rock bottoms of relapse, like all
these words that I think sometimes are these phrases that
I feel like kind of keep people drunk and high.
I mean, I just I just had so much shame, right,
Like I had some shame about the way that I
was living. And so what had happened is I'll never
(11:21):
forget it. We were at the Jersey Shore where it's
from my family vacations in the summer. It was late
August and there was a Hurricane Iris or tropicals from
coming through, and so I knew that I had to
leave the shore to go pick up because we were
going to get stuck down there, right And so I
(11:41):
like I kind of left my family drove up to
South Jersey to Camden, and that was kind of like
there was it was about a week's worth of time
or however long it was where I got a dui
and I got thrown into jail, and then I walked
out of jail, and like, it's just just chaos. And
so the final straw was I broke into my dad's
(12:03):
office and I sole a check and I had filled
out the check to myself, and I went into Camden,
which is where I was kind of like running around
getting high and selling drugs and doing the whole thing.
And I went into the bank. And whenever I tell
my story, I start with this story because it's just
(12:23):
one of kindness. It's just like one of like I
always laugh, I do this work. And a psychiatrist didn't
save my life. A clinician didn't save my life, you know,
A sponsor didn't save my life. A bank teller did
A bank teller, right, And so what happened was I
walked into this bank and Ronda Jackson was my earth Angel,
(12:44):
was sitting behind the counter. And I gave Ronda this
check and she kind of looked at me and she smiled,
and I thought she was going to go get my money,
and I kind of sat around waiting for her to
go get the five thousand dollars that I had to
made the check out for and he kind of came
back into like one minute, and she had a couple
of choices in that moment. She could have called the cops,
(13:05):
you know, she could have told her manager. But what
she did is she called my dad, and my dad
happened to be in his office and picked up the
phone and drove down to the bank. And you know,
fifteen twenty minutes later, while I'm still kind of like
waiting for this money because I had no other options, right, like,
would either get this money or go go rob someone.
(13:27):
And so he came in the bank and put his
arm on my arm and said, so we're going home,
and then you know, that's the story, that's the chills, right,
And so we went home, and I was in Karen
a couple days later, and I haven't turned back. I mean,
and I'm just sitting in New York now and Karen's
gala is this week and I'm the chair of their
(13:49):
New York Advisory Board and I'm on their board of trustees.
And it's just like so crazy to me what we're
able to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
So yeah, I love So it started with kindness, and
you never know when you'll be that person, right, like
people expect the doctor to do it.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
People expect the psychiatrists to do it, people expect the
therapists to do it. And we don't always do it,
to be clear, But that Banker right, And this is
one of the central this is actually the central theme
of the book. An addiction is that compassion and that kindness.
And you said it earlier community, right. So one of
(14:32):
the things that I want us to unlearn is that
you have to cut people off for them to make
the decision to get better.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
It's dangerous.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And one of the stigmas I want us to undo is,
like you said, you have to let people hit rock bottom, right,
because for a lot of people, the bottom rock is dead,
and we're not trying to wait for people to hit that.
And I think, like, you never know when you might
be the person that does that small act of kindness
(15:02):
that completely starts a new path. So thank you, Ronda.
So Rnda calls your dad. Dad comes and picks you up,
and so again the importance of this dad relationship. And
then we go into recovery. So we have this concept
in the book. It's called the magic formula. I started
with there are a million, you know, infinite paths in
(15:23):
and so there have to be infinite paths out.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And it's this idea.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Kind of the framework is like, there are biological risks
that you inherit. There are psychological things in childhood that
increase risk, there are social, cultural environmental things that increase risk,
and then as we go through life those repeat. Right,
So you had a brain surgery, which became another biological
risk factor for you. Psychologically, social, environmentally, you start hanging
(15:50):
out in Camden, like all of these all of these
things add on and so the magic formula is like,
look at your set of factors and what's meaningful to
you you and what brings purpose to your life and
the community you surround yourself with, and you make your
magic formula for recovery. And so can you talk to
(16:11):
us about what magic formula you initially came out of
Karen with and what your formula is today and if
that has changed over time?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think just hearing you
talk about that, like, you know, for me, whenever I'm
working with our patients or our clients, I'm always amazing
how resilient they are, you know, the the adoption, the
sexual abuse, the things that have happened. The traumas that
have happened to these people that we work with on
(16:43):
a daily basis is far beyond any And I didn't
like I always kind of say, like I just love
the party. I mean that was just it was just
in my DNA and it sucked me up. And no, yes,
I think when I got to the brain tumor and
some of the other things, like I started to you know,
acquire some things that we're probably gonna make it a
little bit more challenging for me to get out of
(17:06):
the cycle without some real help. But I just I
love that you're like kind of hitting on that that
there's all these different ways that we can get to
where we get like and it doesn't really matter. But
for me, I'm gonna try not and go my soapbox here,
like I.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Think, oh, soapboxes are welcome.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Well, look, I mean I think treatment stinks. I think
we're doing ourselves like a major disservice. And you know,
for me, so much of what I needed when I
was going through the process was hope, you know. And
like there's so many of these places that I've toured thousands,
not own hundreds of treatments, thousands is that sets a
(17:45):
lot hundreds of treatment centers in our in our country,
and most of these places you walk in and you
feel like you're walking into like yeah, there's some decent
food and like you know, but like for the most part,
it's like I'm walking into the end of my life.
Don't feel it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel like
there's actually something that I'm gonna be able to look
(18:06):
forward to. Yes, And so for me, I'm grateful for
my four and a half months at Karen and Karen
I think historically is one of the better treatment centers,
you know, better treatment centers, and they take a very
kind of like abstinence based twelve step approach. They've gotten
into the medication as system treatment since since I was there,
and obviously opened their minds up a little bit. But
(18:30):
when I got out, I'll never forget the email, this
piece of paper, and it was kind of like, you know,
go to some of these meetings and meet some of
these people, you know, go see this psychiatrist. So I
was on davatroll for probably eight or nine months when
I got out of treatment, which was really helpful. But
my magic formula was like I'm going to try this thing,
(18:52):
and I'm going to prove everyone that, prove everyone wrong.
This is not gonna work for me. And so I
moved to New York City and I started just trying
to connect. It was that human connection, and I had
to see it with my own two eyes that there
was more going on here than a bunch of people
hanging out in the church basement. There was more going
(19:12):
on here than me sitting in a therapist's office crying
my eyes out. And so early on it was all
about community, self reflection and actually doing the work. And
like there's this prayer you know in the rooms of
AA that I heard early on. It's called the set
aside prayer, and basically what they're saying is like, set
(19:33):
aside anything you think you know about recovery, this process,
the people you're going to meet, and keep an open mind.
And I was able to do that just long enough
where like this thing got me in, this way of
life got me. But then I started to incorporate some
of the like the holistic stuff, right, So I started
doing yoga, I started working out, I started eating healthy.
I started to prioritize my sleep. And that's the piece
(19:56):
of treatment where I think we're missing it. But then
I started to incorporate some of the like the holistic stuff, right.
So I started doing yoga, I started working out, I
started eating healthy. I started to prioritize my sleep. And
that's the piece of treatment where I think we're missing it.
You know, there's all this stuff going on right now
with coal plunders and saunas and your diet and your sleep,
(20:18):
And why are we not focusing on that stuff in treatment?
It's like I always yell about in high school, they
didn't ever set us down and give us like a
financial literacy class, like teach us the value of a dollar. Yeah,
And I'm like, why not in treatment are we not
like doing these things that we know are going to
help us have a better chance at recovering. So my
(20:40):
magic formula was like basically the community and the self
work and the healing and the therapy in conjunction with
this kind of like holistic approach of you know, mind, body, spirit.
If you will, I'm.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Giving you a megaphone for this soapbox because I'm I
don't know, I might accidentally nud you off.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
We're like fighting to stand on top of the soapbox.
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
And starting with like you said community as your core,
but you were like I needed some hope, and it
is so important you think about even just the physical
spaces that we're sending people in to get help, and
like you go into a dreary, sad, old space where
(21:29):
you know the team is tired and the protocols are tired,
and like where is the sunshine, Where is the hope?
Where is that holistic attention to you as a person,
And like we say, like what percent of your time
do you actually spend in the office of a professional
(21:50):
in your life? A sliver and so we can't imagine
that's what it is. It has to be this entire life.
I'm gonna take a little bit of a it's not
non sequitur, but because it's like a little related. But
my youngest son just graduated from high school and this
is now three years ago. He was a sophomore and
a friend of mine is an education activist and she
(22:14):
always talks about centering the voice of the young people,
like the kids in learning, how to make the educational
system better. And so this is to your point, like
why are there not cold plunges and yoga and mindfulness
and meditation and reiki, like all of these and nutrition
and financial planning, like all of these things that we
know equip people to believe and start achieving more and
(22:38):
have hope that there's something more. And so she was
just doing this lightweight survey of high school kids, and
so I asked my son. We're driving home, and I'm like,
what's the one thing the school system could change that
would increase the number of kids that graduate high school?
Make it a better experience for you? On the way,
(22:59):
I had like so many ideas about what he was
going to say, and he was like, the food needs
to be more delicious. And I was like, like, at
first I balked a little bit on the inside, but
the whole point of this is like hear the voice
of the person the system is supposedly serving, and I'm like,
tell me more about that. And he's like, when the
(23:20):
portions are too small and you're hungry and the food
is nasty and you don't want to eat it anyway,
and then you just feel like you're like slopping through
food out a jail. He was like, that.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Doesn't make me want to come to school.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
And this is what you're saying, Like we need spaces
we need to think even beyond the traditional Vivatrol is amazing, Yes,
therapy we need it, of course, twelve step programs and
community love it, right, but like, what are the other
things that are so basic to just a good experience
(23:54):
to help people stay tethered in.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
No, I mean rehabilitation, Like we are rehabilitating ourselves right, Like, yes,
that is what I like when you really think about
that word for me, And look, I understand that people
who come into treatment centers like I did are are broken,
and they're going to be lacking motivation and there's going
(24:19):
to be a period of time where they can't do
much of anything. But once we move past that initial
kind of like ICU moment, you know, really paying attention,
listening to what that person is saying and encouraging them
to if they walk ten steps one day, let's do
twenty tomorrow. You know. I think a lot of people
(24:40):
get well and are alone and then eventually they're back
to that old behavior because they're not actually doing it
with someone. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Alone is super dangerous.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I mean I talk about this in a lot of
different contexts, just like through my professional and personal life.
But like neurobiologically speaking, a pack animals. Like, literally, you
look at that pathway in our brain that tells us
you need that to survive, and one of the natural
most strongest stimuli of that signal is nurturing and connection.
(25:14):
And so without that and just even going beyond addiction
and substance use disorders, just like health period, we actually
need connection and community.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
So let's get out there.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's why I always tell people, no, I mean, that's
why always tell people are trying to get sober, trying
to get I mean, like you have this built in
thing that not the normally normal people don't have a
place where they can just go and connect with people.
Like how cool is it that you have this community
that you can tap into at any moment. You know,
obviously there's stigma around what that community might mean to
(25:47):
someone who's in early recovery and the label they're going
to put on themselves. But if they can get past that,
like it's I've met the coolest people and the smartest
people in the world in my recovery circles.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
So let's kind of like bring it down from this
conceptual like, Okay, we need community, we need connection, we
need holistic care. You kind of gave us a list
on holistic approaches, but like, talk to us about in
real life, like day to day what are you doing
that is intentionally keeping community in your life, because I
(26:23):
want people to be like, don't try that.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm a runner. So the running
community is very similar to the recovery community. Inclusive, loving, kind,
goal oriented. That's a huge part of my daily life,
like being in the center of the recovery community. I
still do therapy once a week. That's a huge that's
(26:47):
a huge thing for me. I've never I've never cheated
on that idea that it doesn't work. I'm still very
active in the in the fellowship that I found helpful
to me early on, and I'm I'm there the same
way I was there from day one, and I just
like it's worked for me. And and you know, there's
(27:07):
parts of that that you know, I hold close to myself.
But I'll say there's there are groups, and there are
people out there where you can go and they don't
want to know anything about you other than that you
you know, don't want to drink and do drugs. And
for me, that has been very beneficial.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You know, and then that I want to be I
want to call it by name if we can, Like,
is it a twelve step fellowship.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Where you are Yeah, we can, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Just you know, don't have to. That's the other thing. No,
I mean, look, that's the other thing that I think,
Like it's twenty twenty four, and it's hard for me
because like for me, twelve step recovery is sacred and
I've never I've never. I mean you asked, so I'll
tell like it's sacred, you know, And there's a set
of traditions in those rooms that you know, I hold
very close to my heart. And so on one hand,
(28:00):
I want to scream at the top of my lungs
like how powerful my experience in those rooms have been.
And on the other hand, you know, I want to
protect what goes on there. And so it's it's kind
of this double edged thing where I've spent the last
thirteen years like navigating it to the best of my ability,
(28:21):
and then when I was thrown into the public eye,
I had to really think about, Okay, how do I
want to communicate my story and my experience to the world.
And I do the best I can. That's it.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You know, no, definitely hurt.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Okay, you were about to say something else before I interrupted.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
No, So it's you know, it's therapy, it's it's it's
it's you know, it's my meetings, it's it's fitness and
the running community. And then obviously for me, what's a
little bit different is my work is rooted. So I work.
You know, we have eighty something employees that release recovery,
you know, probably fifty at EMMA in recovery. You know,
I'm around folks every day who are who are new,
(29:03):
and so the thing that I think we oftentimes forget about.
So if I put my work and my job over here,
that's fine, right, But I think the two things that
maybe don't get enough airtime is one service, you know,
this whole idea that like giving back, right, and that
(29:24):
doesn't have to be in this recovery world. Go being
the homeless or volunteer with an organization, walk some dogs, pets, whatever.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
But like, wherever your passion is.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Service is huge for me. And then yeah, spirituality, you know,
like I think prayer, meditation, some of the work we
can do there is really really powerful and oftentimes kind
of just brush to the side. So if I had
to say, it's like community service, spirituality, therapy, and then
(29:59):
just having some fun. Man, Like this thing is not
that serious, Like we gets over to have fun.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, I love it. I love it, especially that last
one on fun. So it reminds me. In one of
the earlier podcasts, talk to Jason Williams, who runs an
adventure recovery program down in Florida, that it's literally like
yah high adrenaline adventure is like fun, he said when
he was sharing his recovery story.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
One of the.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Biggest barriers he had to the idea of recovery is
that he thought, how will I ever be able to
have fun again if I'm not drinking.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, it's almost like you got to fool people into
it because like you hear the word fun when you're
five days sober, I'm like, that's yeah, that's horrible. You know.
It's like it's like so it's like we got to
try and make this thing look some way and for
people to come in and then get a guy like
me who's you.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Know, I will say fun runs through that exact same
neurobiological pathway as does nurturing, which is our survival pathway.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So like we literally need it. We literally need it neurobiologically. Okay,
time flies, this is amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
We're like already forty minutes in, which means we're getting
close to the end. Before I ask you the last question,
which I gave you a heads up on at the beginning,
but gave you no time to think through with us,
like my little trick, anything else you were hoping to
share when you came on today that you want to
(31:36):
make sure people walk away with.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I just appreciate what you're doing. I think for me
and I talked about this. We had our gala for
we have a nonprofit too, which you know basically just
raises money to help people go get treatment. It's that simple.
I'll send you some information on it. Yeah, I refoundation.
So literally, if you have someone that calls you in Canada,
(31:58):
like we're put and people in treatment and giving them
the same experience that I had. But we had our
gallo last weeks ago. I was thinking about, like, really,
what do I want to say to the world right now?
Like what do I want the world to hear? And
you know, it kind of just came to me that like,
and it probably wasn't an original thought because they never are.
But like loneliness right now, I believe is the biggest
(32:22):
killer in our country and we don't want to acknowledge that.
And so when someone when there's like one of these
behavioral healthcare crisis is like an overdose or a death
by suicide, like those people, they're dying alone. And the
way that we combat that, truly is everything that we
(32:43):
talked about here today is like community and in stilling
hope and having fun. As cheesy as it sounds, like,
that's what life is all about. So that's it. Like
if you're listening to this and you're curious, or you're
scared of or you have old ideas around what you
think for recovery or mental health or any of this stuff,
means like they'll knock it before you try it, Like
(33:04):
keep an open mind. And if I can give you
a little dose of inspiration. I mean, the last thirteen
years of my life, I've been beautiful and I get
to speak to people like doctor Harrison or much smarter
than me and just try to make a little better place.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
So I love it. I love it all right. So
we'll run into our closer.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I meant to say, and I forgot to say it
when you were talking. But I loved the way you
kind of got this light and smile on your face
when you mentioned your spirituality.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
It was actually really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
So, running into our last question, if there's and it
doesn't have to be one of each, it could just
be one.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You can tell us whatever you want to tell us.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
One thing you want people to unlearn that they think
they know about addiction or recovery, or one stigma that's
killing people that you want us to work hard to undo.
Or one conversation that people don't know how to have
or are afraid to have that you think if we
could just uncover that conversation, we would save lives.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
What comes to mind?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Yeah, I mean I think there's two things that I
want to talk about here, because the last part, you know,
is really about the family members. I think the family members,
especially in our work, are delta really tough hand, you know,
and they oftentimes are left behind because like someone like me,
I go to treatment for four months, I get this
like college degree or this semester's worth of like therapy,
(34:34):
and they're like, well what about me? You know? And
so I think the one thing for the family members
that I would like to say is kind of like
hang in there and do your own work. And you know,
like I think you alluded to it, like I'm never
going to tell a mom to put her kid on
the street, you know, like that's just not I'm not
(34:56):
a parent. One and two like until you're putting that situation,
you don't really know how it feels. And so like
I have a lot of compassion for the fam members,
and I would just encourage them that if you're asking
your loved one to do this work, then maybe you
should kind of take a look at look at it too,
and it might help you in some of your communication
and then you know, overall success of the family's recovery.
(35:18):
And then the second part is surround the thing that
I want, like my dream. And this is just like
over my years of experience, like the things that I've
heard over and over again, like how do I date
in sobriety? How do I have fun in sobriety? My
life's over, you know, like I have to hang out
(35:39):
with these people that don't drink the rest of my life,
and how do I hang out with old friends? And
you know, my hope or the thing that I would
want to destigmatize. It's just the fact that like I
believe our world is ready for this, Like I believe
our world is moving towards a culture that really highlights
(36:00):
the benefits of not drinking and not doing drugs and
being sober and wellness and longevity and so like, the
only way I can really say it is we had
that galo that I was talking to you about two
weeks ago, and we had it at a nightclub in
New York City at Tale Downtown, and we had seven
hundred people there and not everyone there was sober, and
there was alcohol being served. And you know, we were
(36:23):
very clear about that upfront, because we want to show
people like myself who are in recovery that they can
walk into any room anywhere and feel a part of
regardless of whether they have a cost seller or not.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And that's yes, So yes, that brought me life.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I talked to I can't remember because I get to
talk to a lot of people, which is amazing. I
think it was Derek Brown and he was like, you know,
bars need to be inclusive, Like you don't have to
drink if you come in the bar, there is a
place for you in the bar if you don't drink.
And I know that's like controversial because for some people
(37:04):
who won't be safe to walk in the bar, But
it's really that sense of belonging.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Like you said right, like you can be giving and
you can belong.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Giving me, giving the person jurisdiction and the ability to
make decisions like agency and be curious about this, like
there are absolutely people that are going to say, for
the rest of my life, I'm going to be uncomfortable
going into bars. For me, I needed that. I needed
to feel that energy despite the fact that I wasn't
drinking or doing drugs, you know, like I needed the
(37:36):
opposite experience. And like when my family said, hey, you're
coming home for Thanksgiving, like, what do you want us
to do about the drinking? I said to them, drink
like you would normally drink, because I don't want to.
I don't want to make myself feel any worse than
I already do. That now my decisions are impacting the
way that you're living, which might be different than the
next person who said, yeah, mom, I love it if
(37:57):
you put the alcohol away, that's right, that's.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Both yeah, oh so good, so good. I appreciate the
shout out to the family. I'm just gonna drop a
support system here that I absolutely love. That's for families
because spot on so right and for families other loved
ones support system. You do have your own recovery journey,
(38:19):
and so it's called We the Village dot co dot
com dot co We the Village. It is specifically for families. So, Zach,
this was amazing.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
If you want to connect with me, it's Zach at
Release Recovery dot com. I answer my emails and we
have a team on that stuff. We live in a
social world, so if you want to hit us there,
it's ZW Clark on Instagram and then Release Recovery on Instagram.
You can dm us, you can meet whatever you're comfortable with.
H we will respond to you, and the website is
(38:54):
www dot Release Recovery dot com. And our promise that
we're going to respond to every phone call and message
we get because someone did that for us at one point.
So thank you. I'm very grateful for your time and
your questions and your thoughtfulness and just everything that you're
doing to kind of allow people like me and other
professionals to be curious and do this work together. We're
(39:17):
going to need it.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Thank you so much for tuning in, and if you
liked this episode, please check out my book on addiction,
Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available
at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon, and.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
If you like to this episode, please share it with
someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please
subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review
that helps us reach any and everyone who may be
looking for support in the face of addiction.
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