Episode 19: Recap: Pathways and Stigma

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.

(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
All Right, y'all.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
This week's episode is a recap of some conversations from
seasons one and two that highlighted the impact of addiction
and mental health stigma. If you've been listening for the
past year, you already know substance use disorders and mental
health struggles often come hand in hand. Even if you
haven't been listening, you probably know this from personal experience.

(01:01):
Our goal with this podcast is to lessen the impact
of stigma, have vulnerable conversations, and hopefully make it easier
for someone else to ask for help. Next week is
our last episode of the season, which will feature Laura Willoughby,
founder of Club Soda, and the UK's foremost expert on

(01:23):
no and low alcohol drinks. Then we have a super
special season lined up featuring all black guests. I am
so excited. So thank you for listening, for leaving thoughtful reviews,
and for sharing us with your loved ones. Okay, let's
get to the episode. I was going to say for

(01:47):
not holding my stuffy nose against me, but I decided nonsen.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
There's a few ways to enter this, and the easiest
way is to say that alcohol is something that has
shaped my entire life. So that begins when I'm very young,
when my father is self identified alcoholic and my sister

(02:15):
passes away in a drunk driving accident.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Oh man.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
As I get older, I start drinking and it find
it's a way to cover my anxiety. And honestly, I
just kind of learned how to drink from the restaurant
and hospitality industry that I was a part of. I
started when I was sixteen years old, and so it
became very normal for me to drink in a way

(02:41):
that most human beings don't or shouldn't be clear, and
so I learned from grizzled old line cooks and lifetime
waitresses and you know, I became well, I was every
position you could imagine in a restaurant or bar, and
it led me to a fairly vampiric lifestyle at some
point where I was like, you know, drinking during work,

(03:03):
after work until looking in the morning, you know, and
then I would sleep until about three, get up for work,
usually be about fifteen minutes late, and then start the
whole thing, you know, rinse and repeat. And so it
got to the point where, you know, I was doing
really well in terms of my recognition as a bartender.

(03:24):
You know, in twenty fifteen, I was named best bartender
in America. In twenty seventeen, my cocktail bar of the
Columbia Room one best American cocktail bar. I served royalty.
We literally shut down one night for a princess. Then
we you know, I was invited to the White House
under the Obama administration, and I did several parties for them,

(03:49):
including senior staff. Anyway, I was. I think this is
really important just to say that alcohol was there at
the worst parts of my life and the best parts
of my life, and so I had a very unique
life shaped by alcohol, which I'm happy to fill in
any additional details, but I'll leave it right there.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
No, that was incredible because one of the things like
that I want people to understand. We think about clinically
the development of alcohol use disorder, and we say when
did you take your first drink? It starts way before that,
And that is what you just laid out for us, right, Like,
the role of alcohol in your life started way before

(04:29):
you ever had your first drink. And then we always
only talk about the negative parts of the substance that
a person is using, and we have to recognize these
substances are there and even in your case, are at
the very root and foundation at the highest points of
celebration that you had in your life. And does it

(04:51):
then start to become part of your identity being bartender
royalty and bar royalty. Right, So take us then to
the next phase where now alcohol is not at the
center of your existence.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
So yeah, I mean to further drive from that point.
At one point, my brother joked and it was about
both of us that without alcohol we wouldn't have friends, hobby,
or a job, and all of that seemed to be true.
What happened is that was fine to some degree during
my twenties and thirties, but it started to catch up

(05:27):
with me, and you know, good genetics is no you know,
is no defense against alcohol use at the level that
I was doing it. And so my health, my stress, anxiety,
every kind of aspect of my life was starting to unravel.
You know, it was getting divorced. Even though I was

(05:47):
winning all these awards, I felt terrible physically, I didn't
feel great. My health was deteriorating, my finances weren't great,
just like any outcome you could imagine was starting to
fall upon and I hadn't quite reached that you know,
metaphorical ditch where it was like that's it. But I
knew that I was at a point that I had

(06:09):
to make a change, and that change actually had a
lot to do with my mental health as well. And
I know that a lot of people, and I'm sure
yourself included, understand that there's a lot of relationship between
alcohol use disorder and mental health. And so, you know,
I was at a point where I really needed help

(06:29):
and I wasn't going to be able to do it
for myself anymore, and so I went to an outpatient program.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
How did you find it?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Well, you know, the truth is that you know, like
it sounds like a super rational decision. Like I was
just bouncing around drinking too much and I was like,
oh shit, my finances aren't good. I better No. I mean,
I was one day sitting on the couch with my son,
who was I don't know, less than two years old,
and I couldn't you know, I was at that at
my end, you know, like I was super depressed. I

(06:59):
was incn and you know, there's my son looking at
me like Daddy, it's okay, and you know, like what
am I going to do about that? My son is
comforting me? And so I reached out to my mom,
who is a nurse, and she said, well, let's let's
find some programs for you. So I was at a
really bad place, and I think that a lot of

(07:21):
people have been to that place. Some people have not
made it out of that place. And I was lucky
I had my son there. I knew that there was
something else to live for, and so I decided that
I was going to find this program. So so I
went to the emergency room. This is the truth. Well
I don't think people think about that as an option,
because my mom was like, well, let's just go to
the emergency room. But that's where you have to start,

(07:43):
because right now, this is an emergency. And I think
that a lot of people don't understand that too. Is
that you can if you broke your leg after a
nasty fall, you go to the emergency room.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Wouldn't think twice when.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
You break your brain, where do you go? You know,
to alcohol in a lot of cases, to substances in
a lot of cases. But the truth is that it's
just it's valid, and it's necessary in some cases to
go to the emergency room. So I did, and then
I got checked into an outpatient program. So I want
to make that clear. This wasn't like just like a
really happy, go lucky moment.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
There was some I think it's super helpful, really.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Some terrible soul scraping moments there that made me change
what my approach was. And so when I saw it
help it was a little I was. I was pretty embarrassed. Actually,
you know, I was really embarrassed because I thought that
that meant, you know, that I was weak, that I
couldn't handle my liquor, you know, like all these things

(08:41):
that I think are really now I see are really stupid.
But at the time it had been just programmed as
a human, as a man, as that's right. So I
had to just say I was, you know, I couldn't
do it alone. And the result was that it opened
this entirely different world for me. And that world was

(09:02):
scary too, by the way, you know, like it wasn't
like this this situation where all of a sudden, okay, cool,
you stop drinking, or you address your mental health, which
I was. You know, I was diagnosed with bipolar depression. Okay,
that didn't fix everything, but I started to, you know,
go to therapy. I started using therapy to drugs. After

(09:26):
that door opened, I started concentrating on my health, my
what I eat, my movement. Sleep. I didn't know you
were supposed to sleep. I didn't know that. Like I was.
I was like working in restaurants and I was like
bragging to people that was like I'm three hours a night.
That's how much I sleep, you know, like I'm some hero.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
That's all I need.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Right, But it was that was not good, and now like,
oh yeah, if I don't get eight hours sleep, you
know that my day is over. So I think that,
you know, I started to address it piece by piece,
and and I really for me that I would not
identify in the same way that my father did as
an alcoholic, right, And I think that, you know, there

(10:07):
are people who are familiar with addiction noticed that alcohol
use disorder is a more modern, temporary way to say this,
and alcohol alcoholism is a more colloquial way to use it,
which which people use all the time. But but I
realized I did have alcohol use disorder, but I didn't
have these cravings that meant that I could not drink anymore.

(10:28):
It really was I had to address it from the
inside out. I had to deal with my mental health.
I had to, you know, look at myself in a
way that I never had before and change my habits.
And once that happened, I actually found that I could
drink occasionally and it was not an issue that didn't
It wasn't like one sip and I'm right back there.

(10:51):
But as time went on, what's funny is that I
was feeling so good about my life and the changes
that I made, that I decided I didn't need alcohol
at all, that there's nothing that alcohol could do for
me that I couldn't do through other better means. What
I really am saying is that for me, this was
a better way to address it.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I love this so much, so I want to click
on a couple of things that you said. One, you
went through a period where you could drink in a
non disordered way. And AA, which I absolutely love, which
is based completely in abstinence, is what people think of
when they think of recovery from alcohol use disorder, when

(11:34):
in reality, the majority of people recover to controlled use
as opposed to complete abstinence. But we have to think about,
like you said, this illness alcohol use disorder, just like
every other illness, has mild, moderate, severe, and there will
be some people that have severe alcohol use disorder where
drinking and moderation will never be an option, and there

(11:57):
will be folks like you where drinking and moderation is
an option.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
And you're just like, I don't need that option.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Other people will exercise that option, right, And so you're
getting into this concept of the magic formula is what
I call it, and everybody's formula. You just made this emphasis,
and I'm going to emphasize your emphasis is theirs It
is individual, and what the components of that formula need

(12:25):
to be are individual, and those components may change over
time as your life changes over time, as you change
over time.

Speaker 4 (12:34):
So I grew up in an affluent suburb of Los Angeles,
and when I was eight years old, my parents were
separated and I was going through a period where I
was starting to have a lot of anxiety and feelings
about something that had happened years before that when I

(12:55):
was four that I wasn't very clear on at the
time because I was eight, and I had one afternoon
where I heard my mother on the phone. She was
in the other room and I could hear she was
upset on the phone, and I started having a panic attack.
I didn't know it was a panic attack at the time,
but that's what I was having. I went for eight

(13:16):
I was eight. Yeah, I went into the bathroom and
I opened the medicine cabinet, and I don't even know
what I was looking for, but there was We had
a bottle of expired darbasset with my grandmother's name on it.
It must have been from a surgery, but had been
sitting there for a long time. I'm assuming my mother
held on to it in case anybody needed for a

(13:36):
headache or something. And there was a label on it
that said may cause drowsiness. And I had no idea
what the medication was. I just was like, oh, drowsy,
I want to be drowsy. So I took one, and
I really liked what it did for me. It gave
me like a sort of layer of protection between myself

(13:57):
and my feelings. And from that point forward, probably not
right away, but you know, over the next few years,
if I was in somebody's bathroom and they had something
with a do not do with a drowsy label or
don't operate heavy machinery, I would take it. And because
I'm you know, old, they didn't have child proof caps

(14:20):
on them then, or I don't remember them, I didn't
have any trouble getting into pill bottles, so I would
kind of just tuck them away so that if I
had a panic attack, I had something to take. And
I remember having such a sort of deep seated shame
that I had the anxiety that I had. I was
already having a lot of ideation and thoughts of self harm,

(14:42):
and these were sort of like my emergency stash that
I could go to when I.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Felt that way.

Speaker 4 (14:49):
When I reached the age of thirteen, there was a
confluence of things that happened, you know, like for many
young female identifying people. I felt like I was getting
sort of mixed messages.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
You know.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
I wasn't conscious of this, but I looking back, there
was sort of this these mixed messages. I was suddenly
five foot eight. I suddenly was aware of the power
that being young and female gave me, and it was
something I had not felt before on a on sort

(15:25):
of an unconscious level, I understood that that was currency.
And so there was the sort of the introduction of
like flirting with boys usually older than me, and also
feeling very insecure about myself. I didn't feel attractive, I
didn't feel I felt that there was something fundamentally wrong

(15:47):
with me. And as a child, I felt like I
had this you know, overarching feeling like if people could
really see who I was, they wouldn't love me because
I'm a monster. And I wasn't cognizant of where it
exactly came from. I just knew that there was something
fundamentally wrong with me.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
You know.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
As I've talked to people over the years during my recovery,
like from my parents to to you know, strangers, there's
there's been a constant sort of like struggle to understand
like how somebody makes that decision and the way that
I always explained it is that the addiction was there
before drugs came in to the picture.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, And there.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Wasn't a question for me because I just wanted. I
would have taken anything to make me feel something other
than how I felt good, good or bad. So that
was the I On that night, ten days after my
thirteenth birthday, I tried heroin for the first time and
lost my virginity. And I had a very you know,

(16:51):
sort of strange experience with that too, because I became
sort of more aware that like that it wasn't the
first time that I had been in a sexual situation.
And as I sort of you know, got into my
teenage years, realized that the truth was I had been
molested when I was four by an adolescent boy who
was the son of family friends. It happened repeatedly, and

(17:15):
I had never told anyone. I think that for me,
that was really kind of at the root of why
I thought there was something wrong with me. And so
from that point forward, I started using heroin with my boyfriend.
He became my boyfriend on weekends. But you know, it
was it didn't get out of control right away. I
was hiding it all through. You know, for like a

(17:37):
two and a half year period, I was using drugs,
mostly just heroines, some cocaine, never alcohol or marijuana. Was
just drugs and end pills. Continued using pills, but you know,
I had you know, straight a's, I was popular, had
a lot of friends. I was a yeer leader, a

(17:57):
volleyball player, a competitive a question in. So throughout my
teenage years, I was using off, you know, using if
I wasn't. I stopped using heroin when I was fifteen,
but I continued taking a lot of pills, a lot
of you know, crystal meth, different things like that. And
then in my early twenties, at twenty one, I started

(18:20):
using heroin again again. Came on like the heels of
like it was an emotional sort of like breakup kind
of thing. And that's when I started using Nobody. I mean,
for ten years between thirteen to twenty three, I hid
this other than from a couple of people who I
confided in, From every friend, family member, teachers, nobody knew,

(18:43):
and people were pretty shocked in my family and definitely
among a lot of my friends and I you know,
that's one of the things I think that part of
The reason that I hid so successfully for ten years
is because I didn't look like what their image of
a drug addict looked like.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Right, And so let's stay here for a second, because
spot On, that's one of the things we think we
know that we unlearn is quote unquote what a person
with addiction looks like. And I think the other thing
that really struck me, you ran it down, like spot On,
You're like, I was a cheerleader, volleyball player, competitive equestrian.

(19:22):
I had straight a's, I had a lot of friends,
all of the things we use that are performative to
tell us we don't need to be worried about a
person that blinds us to there had to be signs
that we just couldn't see because we've been programmed, Like

(19:43):
if you have good grades and you're playing a sport,
everything is great.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
But that pain.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
I really loved what you said. You said the addiction
was there before I ever picked up a.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
Drug, right, And you know, I mean I say often
to people that like heroin ended me from killing myself,
and I'm not suggesting that as a solution for people. However,
I didn't have the tools. I didn't feel like I
could go to my parents because I had so much
shame about it. I just didn't feel like there was

(20:16):
anyone I could turn to, and I had to if
I was going to survive, I had to figure this out.
And so it really was a means of survival for me.
And I really appreciate what you said about the opioid crisis, because,
you know, I do a lot of speaking with legislators
about drug policy reforms, speaking with mental health professionals, people

(20:37):
in the medical industry, law enforcement, and parents. One of
the you know, biggest failures in our country around drug
policy is the idea of the war on drugs and
then later on this sort of like let's punish pharmaceutical companies.
That is not to say that they did not market
things and take advantage of a situation and that there
were pill mills and all of that. Yes, but it

(20:59):
is never a supply issue. It is always a demand issue.
And the reason that we have the proliferation of fentanyl
in the drug market and now xylazine in the drug
market is one result of our failed war on drugs.
This is not the fault of Mexico, this is not

(21:21):
the fault of China. This is not because we need
stricter borders. This is because we have a mental health
crisis largely based on the systemic failure to support people
on every level. You know, I was never arrested, and
that's because of my skin color and because I came
from a socioeconomic background where I had financial support. So

(21:42):
I had a decent car, I you know, access to money.
So I went to rehab and it was not a
bad experience at all. It laid you know, a lot
of what I did in my two stints in rehab
laid the foundation for my recovery. However, after that first
trip to rehab, it took me another five and a

(22:04):
half years near constant relapse to finally get to a
place where I was able to address the real root issues.
I wasn't a person who necessarily felt like I like
the disease model of alcoholism and addiction resonated with me,

(22:27):
and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't do it,
because it wasn't that I wasn't working the steps in
a twelve step programmer that I didn't want it. I
just I would get to a point with emotional pain
where I felt like I wanted to rip my skin
off or jump out the window. And I would literally
sit on my hands and count, so like same thing

(22:48):
I did when I was a kid, So I wouldn't
harm myself.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
I you know.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
The other thing I the reason that I say that too,
is that in speaking to people, you know, I think
in America culture, there is there is this sort of
like idea of like pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.
And well, like, you know, well he got out of
the ghetto and did and you know, if he can
do it, and and I like to say a couple
of things about that. Number One, I know from personal experience. Yes,

(23:18):
sure there are people who are able to get out
of really horrible situations, right they say they're born into
to poverty and they get themselves out of it. Great,
that's wonderful. But I think the majority of people need
a little bit more support, you know. So I say

(23:38):
to people, Look, I had all of the My family
was supportive, they did not turn their backs on me.
I had access to mental health care, I had access
to physical health care. I had, you know, plenty of
friends and family who were supportive to me. And it
still took me five and a half years of constant
relapse so talk.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
To me about the formula before you do.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
First of all, I want to say, so you're describing
what we would call diagnostically a severe opioid use disorder, right,
opio use disorder. We measure it now my moderate severe
severe substance use disorder. Your natural history of the disease
is what we call it. Adoptors is like, what does
it usually look like? Is exactly spot on. So usually

(24:22):
people start struggling, They struggle for about five years before
they even approach the treatment system for help the first time,
and then there are periodic relapses for eight years and
then sustain recovery for a year and relapse risk falls
a bit, and then five years and it falls significantly.
So you are like exactly in that time frame for

(24:46):
severe substance use disorder. And yet we're still out here
saying like, oh, you had to go to rehab twice,
that's something about you. Like, oh, oh, whatever, I'm about
to start get on a soapbox, I'll just avoid it.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
But no, it's true.

Speaker 5 (25:03):
I mean it's not. Oh.

Speaker 4 (25:04):
I was listening. I was listening to a podcast where
there was a police officer who had struggled with addiction
and he said something that he wasn't sure if the
policy had changed, but when he was in the forest,
they just started letting police officers go to rehab but
only for alcohol, Oh my god, not for drugs, And
then it was and then he changed it, and then
it was that they could go to rehab but only once.

(25:27):
And the idea that you know, that we expect people
to just snap their fingers and have their entire constitution
change in twenty eight days is so ridiculous. And as
you pointed out before, you know, it would with different
treatment protocols if we were treating cancer or any other
serious illment. If something isn't working, then we're like, okay,

(25:48):
let's try this. One of the things, like when I
was first trying to get recovery in twelve step meetings,
it was very, you know, very hardlined on abstinence based recovery,
and I so I was like, oh, you know, if
somebody's on methodone, they're not really in recovery. Or if
somebody's and I at the time like I had started, well,
bututrin in recovery and then some people that's not recovery,

(26:12):
and I'm like, so I kept going off a bit
and then I look easy, and you know it was
really a struggle. And obviously now my viewpoint is so
different because recovery. Recovery is not the definition of recovery
is an ABSTINENCEO.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Say it again louder for the people in the back.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
The definition of recovery does not include abstinence. Abstinately that
if abstinence is part of your recovery, great, but that's
not where recovery is. It's about getting back something that
you lost, part of your welf, your life, your ability
to be a part of society.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Your ability to believe could be a mother to your right.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
This is what recovery is. Right.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
Oh, if somebody had told me, even while I was pregnant,
that I would be able to not just stay off
of drugs, but to be able to go through life
and not feel on a daily basis like I wanted
to die, I wouldn't have believed them. Yeah, I really
I didn't think that happiness was a possibility for me.

(27:18):
I've learned more about myself and my my psychological makeup.
I've learned more about the way that my brain works.
You know, I think I had so many different diagnoses
thrown at me over the years. Everything from you know,
like generalized anxiety to key to bipolar two borderline personality

(27:43):
disorder was thrown at me all the time. And you know, now,
I you know, with the psychiatrist, I have now. For
the longest time, he kept saying, you know, I really
you know, have you ever been screened for ADHD? And
I was like, no, I'm like, I did really well
in school. I'm like, and was it finally went through
the diagnostic test and lo and behold and looked at

(28:05):
sort of amply and I really think so much of
it was just trauma and ADHD. And when I learned
how to manage my ADHD, which isn't just medication, it's
a whole holistic you know toolbox. Yeah, the difference my
insomnia went away for the first time in my life,

(28:27):
and I realized how there were so many things that
I could do to help my brain that was constantly
looking for dopamine. There were just little things and so
I do those things well.

Speaker 6 (28:42):
You know, so when you're people understand when you're at
a high. You know, once you taste a success, you
constantly like, okay, I'm one. Since you're young, you know,
it's like this path is laid out for you, right,
especially as sports, it's like, okay, you play, you go
to college, you play pro. So now you know, I'm
number one pick in the w NBA draft and consider

(29:02):
a game changer, you know, I signed you know, big
deals with Nike, gatorays on my faces, places and stuff.
And I get to go. Now I'm drafted, I get
to leave the South. I'm back on the East Coast
and DC for the Washington Mystics. So light life is good.
But here I am now leaving that protective environment of
my grandmother, right, leaving that protective environment of coach Pat

(29:25):
Summit to now being you know, twenty one years old.
You know what means in DC by myself pretty much,
you know, and trying to figure figure life out. You know,
here I have my own house, I have material things,
and you know, after a while, I'm just like, all right,
someone needs to live with me. And I have one
of my cousins, you know, come stay with me, Sharon,

(29:48):
And things are going great. Like you know, the season
wasn't the best because when you're number one, you go
to the worst team. But I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying
the people and coming into my own trying to figure
this out. And then it was the Olympic year, so
another high. You know, we went gold. That's two thousand
and then my grandmother passes, probably like my third season,

(30:09):
and my world was like shattered. I always tell people
I buried my grandmother and I buried my emotions, so
it went to where I was feeling after like my
grandmother passed. It was like I was on autopilot. I
had one of my best seasons of my career, I think,
leading the league and scoring and rebounding, but mentally I

(30:30):
was just trying to push through to day.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
You know.

Speaker 6 (30:33):
I would try to have dreams about her. I'm like,
if I dream about her tonight. I was just really suffering, grieving,
you know, and I constantly just pushed through because you
can't be sad, right, I'm pushing through. I'm pushing through.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
And well that's the strategy. That's the twenty ten strategy,
right right, just push through.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (30:49):
And then my grandfather the following year, and let me
tell you my grandfather. You know, God rest is so
but we weren't close like that, you know, he was
in my life. So he passed away. But my therapist
was saying it was like a trigger, and I guess
like I was headed to see my teammates to hang out,
and I pulled over and I was just overcome with

(31:11):
all these emotions, and I just remember going to my
place in like days past. I guess I had the
doctor said it was like an episode. And next thing
you know, I'm on ESPN the ticker that people told me,
and everybody's wondering where I'm at because it's the middle
of my season and I'm in my place, you know,
really struggling with suicidal ideation. I'm wishing that with my grandmother.

(31:36):
I'm just I just didn't want to be here any anymore.
I just remember I'm laughing even though it's like serious.
But I just remember like eating fruity pebbles. That was
like my favorite little cereal, and I do remember eating those.
But I was just like a zombie. And I know,
Coach Summit came to town, and you know people it came,

(31:59):
but it's it's just like nobody could could connect with me.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
You were so deep in what sounds like a major
depressive episode, triggered by the grief of really losing your grandmother,
triggered by your granddad, but this is your how old
by this time?

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Twenty three? Am?

Speaker 6 (32:19):
I'm yeah, probably twenty three, twenty four, Yes.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
This is twenty four years worth of all of that
hurt and pain in emotion and always working the twenty
ten formula, right, like being a high performer and looking
great while suffering on the inside. Yeah, it's it hits
the peak. And so how did you recover from that episode?

(32:44):
And what have things been like since?

Speaker 6 (32:46):
Oh, recovering from that? So you got to stand this
the middle of the season, so having to deal with
like the media and whatever, and you know, I'm used
to you know, people can motivate me, people are close
to me, all right, you could get through this. And
my coach gave me own the book. This is called
Unquiet Mind by Kate Kay Jamison, doctor k Jamison from
John Hopkins, and she lives with a bipolar disorder. So

(33:10):
I like read the book, like one day. I read
the book and I'm like, Okay, I can do this
because that's an athlete's mentality, right. And I remember when
I when it was emergency, the team and then everybody
sent me to this psychiatrist and a Gold Coast in
DC and I'm in the room she's telling me I'm suicidal.
My mom's there, and my mom will tell you. She's

(33:31):
like she didn't recognized me. I've never they said they
had to put me on like medication. I want to
go to hospital. I'm going to the hospital, you know.
And then I'm looking like you don't even know me.
I remember being soul like I popped up. I said,
how are you giving me medication? And so they gave
me a medication and I'm like, all right, I got this,
now you know you you come down. I'm like, I
got this. I can go play because I'm a people

(33:53):
pleasing right. I hop back on the on the court.
I never forget I'm playing against the Detroit shot. It
felt like really poetry in motion. It was like I'm
on this medication. Everything was like so the slow motion.
And I played that game and that was the last
game I ever played for that team. I grabbed my
stuff normally shower, I left. I just left and I

(34:16):
never returned, and I found myself just like trying to
run away from the intervention. So I went over to Spain.
I was there in Barcelona by your team. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, because I need for me. I just need
to be away from everyone. That's what I think. Sure,
that's what you thought, So that's what I thought. So

(34:39):
I'm running. I'm running because I don't want to deal
with the with the issues, and the press was the
media was not so kind because you know, people can't
you know, it's like a visible illness, right if people
see that you can put your words together and they
see you and they don't know what's like going on inside.
Sometimes you know, we judge people, so you you know,

(35:00):
people wrote like harsh things about me, and it was
a lot of rumors that sheet. They said I had
like New Gary disease, I was pregnant. Just a lot
of things are starting to come out. So I went away.
And then for a lot of women, we played internationally,
so I was over there. The Spanish team found out
I ended up playing over there. Then I started, you know,
getting a little calmer and figuring this out. And then

(35:22):
some media came over from the US. Andrew Nicholas came,
a big reporter came over and did a piece for
like ESPN, and I think it was probably like one
of the first times where like I talked about like
mental health issues, you know, and I was afraid. I'm
not gonna lie. It took a lot, and next thing,

(35:43):
you know, I go back. I requested a trade DCD
in one trade me so now I'm going to LA.
But I got so much support, That's what I want
to say. Like when I finally got the courage to
talk about my issues, you know, people understood, people rallied
behind me.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
I just been there, man.

Speaker 6 (36:02):
But when you're young, you don't know that.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Because we won't talk about it. And that is like,
I think the number one thing we can do for
our young people, this is suicide prevention.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
What's the number one message? You are not alone?

Speaker 6 (36:16):
I found a regiment that works for me. I understand.
I have to connect with nature. I have to take
my medication. I have to have like some time for
for Shamikua. I got balanced, like I said, stable my
mental health and in recovery. You know, but I'm aware,
I'm I woke now.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Right, that's right. Your sies are open.

Speaker 6 (36:39):
Right, so I know like my feelings and I know
how I'm just you know, I just have a different
tool tools, you know, tools right now that I can use.
I think like this applies to any any person, you know, ethnicity, race,
you know, gender, all that stuff. But I'm gonna say
more for like, because I am a black woman, I
get tired of us on our community having to push

(37:02):
through that word. Like I mean, I just put my
head down and I'm pushing through. Throw that away, Like
why why do you always have to feel that weight?

Speaker 3 (37:11):
That weight is heavy?

Speaker 6 (37:12):
Like you know, you know, I told one of my homegirls,
like back when I was in Atlanta and I'm like,
you know, going through therapy and stuff like that. I'm like, y'all,
we gotta be better. My my white friends, they're like
talking at Cottails girl, have my therapy appointment at you see.
And as soon as I mentioned therapy is like in

(37:33):
our community, it's like you know, you she crazy or whatever.
And I'm like, yo, we gotta change that. So I'm thankful.
Like again, I feel the universe is using me because
now my friends who you know, not talk about these things.
My family members that will not talk about these things
now discuss these things. You know, therapy and you know,

(37:53):
being ballast because I mean, you know, you're you're an educator,
educated woman, you have a husband, family and all this stuff.
That's dude got a lot to carry it career. Family,
that's a lot all of us. We're dealing with stuff,
you know, So yeah, just take care of yourselves.

Speaker 7 (38:11):
Yeah, I fell in love with alcohol.

Speaker 8 (38:16):
I was like eighteen. I went to college and I
had like freedom for the first time. I had a
strict upbringing, very strict, so I didn't like it's a
party that much in high school. And when I did
in high school, I mean I was like a senior
and I would just get blacked out. So then I

(38:36):
went to college, and college was I mean, I was
blacked out all the time, like.

Speaker 7 (38:43):
I mean every other day.

Speaker 8 (38:46):
I just I everyone knew I was gonna be blacked
out too, Like I just I loved I loved it.
I loved it because it it took away that anxiety initially,
you know, of do I have the right to exist
the way I am in this space that I'm in?

Speaker 7 (39:09):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:10):
But do you mind clicking into that a little bit?

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Was like, was there something that was making you feel
maybe you don't deserve to exist in this space the
way you are? Or it was kind of just a
general feeling.

Speaker 8 (39:24):
Well, it was just like a general feeling I had
all the time of like not knowing like not feeling well,
and that is also underlying neurodivergence, you know, that was
underlying autism that I didn't know I had. And I
had been like had this like secret, but it was
like only with myself, and it was like all these
things that I hid and I tried to cover up

(39:44):
and make sure no one saw me doing and uh
so that was like my worst nightmare, was like anyone
knowing about any of that kind of stuff, but like
I didn't know it was autism.

Speaker 7 (39:56):
I didn't have a name for it.

Speaker 8 (39:57):
So the alcohol, it kind of like it took away
this anxiety of that part of me spilling out, you know,
so I had more freedom to exist however I wanted to,
because I wasn't scared.

Speaker 7 (40:14):
But it also made it easier.

Speaker 8 (40:15):
So while it made it easier for me to be myself,
it also made it easier for me to slip into
like masks of characters because I wasn't afraid of somebody
calling my bluff.

Speaker 5 (40:26):
Is that?

Speaker 7 (40:27):
Yes, that makes sense, totally totally.

Speaker 8 (40:31):
So alcohol was like the best thing ever for me
because it I finally felt like I could enjoy light
because I wasn't scared of And it's like I always
want to find like an emotion or like a direct
thing to pinpoint what I'm afraid of. But I'm really

(40:51):
just not not even sure. I think it might at
the end of the day be a lack of control
over how people could react, and like maybe people could react,
and I'm thinking of so many different ways more than
just rejection. I'm afraid of people like they could get
violent me. I don't know, like I could, I could
go anywhere, like my brain could. I just I can

(41:11):
panic from people's reactions. And so I had the alcohol
took away a lot of that fear of like other
people's reactions to me. So that was like in college,
I really started like drinking, but I wasn't drinking every
single day. But now let's say like The Bachelor, I'm
twenty three, I'm I'm trying to get as much alcohol

(41:33):
as I can. I have the best time of my life,
I get. I mean, I am petrified all the time
at all of these things I have to do after
the show, so like you know, these big events and things.
I remember going to Ellen and like I'm just drinking
my way through all because I'm so nervous. So and

(41:56):
I'm just so scared I'm gonna humiliate myself. So I know,
if I get drunk, then I'm to just be lucy.
I'm going to be loose and I'll be able to
be myself and it'll go great.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (42:05):
So I was like I need to have that alcohol though,
in order to be myself.

Speaker 7 (42:08):
Like that is what I truly I believed.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
I was like to not to be afraid to be yourself.

Speaker 7 (42:16):
Yes, yes, exactly.

Speaker 8 (42:17):
And it was like a mental thing in my I
was like a mental thing that I had though, like
I'm not gonna be safe until I have the alcohol,
like you know, like I need that first.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
So that was the rule in your head. Yep, you
had to drink in order to be okay, to be yourself.

Speaker 8 (42:33):
I'm a I need to be able to like not care,
like I need to be able to relax.

Speaker 7 (42:39):
I need to be able to be who I am.

Speaker 8 (42:41):
But it's like I didn't understand, you know, like you
can't not be who you are.

Speaker 7 (42:47):
But you know, that's besides the point.

Speaker 9 (42:50):
There was at some point you don't want to not
be who you are, right, Like That's that's what's so
human about the story, is like you were dying to
just be able to be who you are and have
that be safe.

Speaker 7 (43:03):
I can't stop drinking by myself really, like I'm like.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Dangerous because you would be so sick and nobody could
potentially be there.

Speaker 7 (43:13):
Yeah, and I didn't really know that.

Speaker 8 (43:15):
I was like waiting for this opportune opportunity, this moment
to have someone with me because like I didn't know that,
but it was like all subconscious because uh, it's like
looking back on it, I can see why I did it.
But my friend Natasha stayed the night with me. This
is like post Bachelor. The second time I went into Paris, Okay,
same time I went to Paradise, I was so drunk

(43:37):
during that.

Speaker 10 (43:38):
I first of.

Speaker 7 (43:39):
All, when I went in there, I went in with.

Speaker 8 (43:41):
Contact bottle Solutions or contact bottle, Contact solution, bottle, oh liquor,
drank them all before I even got to the beach,
like in the hotel before I got Yeah. So then
I was waking up getting withdrawals, and I was like desperate.
They don't start serving drinks till till noon, So I
was so desperate. I was drinking the mouthwash. Yeah, drinking

(44:03):
the mouthwash.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
I've been taking care of people with alcoholism for a
long time, and this is actually very common.

Speaker 8 (44:10):
And I remember that I had heard someone say that
they knew someone that was an alcoholic because they were
always drinking mouthwash in their like locker. And I was like, well,
maybe that'll get me through and it did. Yeah, and
it did because I would have had withdrawals there in
Mexico League.

Speaker 7 (44:24):
What would I have done? I mean, that would have
been a whole thing. Woo, Well, they're filming. I do
not want my intervention while we're filming.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
I know, because you know they would have aired it too.

Speaker 7 (44:35):
Oh my god, it would have been so exploited.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Oh yeah, it would have been so exploitive. So your
friend Natasha is spending the night.

Speaker 8 (44:43):
Yes, So post the second time I go on back
to Paradise, she was on there with me. She's staying
at my house. She lives in New York and she's
staying at my house in LA And we wake up
the next day and I'm like, I have to tell
you something, and she's like what, And I'm like, I
kind of have a super bad drinking problem and I
really want to stop. So I'm not going to drink
anymore after today, but can you please make sure that

(45:05):
I don't die.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
I was like, because I don't know what's gonna happen. Yeah,
So what was it about Natasha that made her safe
enough for you to be able to take this plunge
with her? You know, I don't. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
She's just.

Speaker 7 (45:21):
I guess she's just who she is.

Speaker 8 (45:25):
Like we had, we had gone through a lot of
you know, stuff together, like being on reality TV together.
She she's she's like a nurturing kind of person too,
Like she's just here's the thing. I think that it's
because I know, I knew that she is the kind
of person that wouldn't like left me hanging, Like I

(45:46):
knew that she was the kind of person who would,
like subconsciously I knew this because I I wouldn't just
like assume you know, I want to assume this, so
I uh set her up. But it's like she's the
kind of person who would help someone and truly help them,
not just like half help, like like actually be in

(46:09):
the moment and care about them, like you know, I
just seen probably because i'd seen her, I've seen her
talk about her friends and the people she cares about,
and how she knows so much about so many of
her friends and stuff like that.

Speaker 7 (46:21):
Just I guess I.

Speaker 8 (46:22):
Had made a bunch of subconscious observations about her character,
and I knew, like, she's she's gonna she'll take care
of me.

Speaker 5 (46:35):
I am Annum Marie Cox. I am a journalist and
writer and podcaster, and I feel comfortable putting those things first,
even though they're what I do for money, because they
are very essential to who I am.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Oh okay, I want to click into that for sure.

Speaker 5 (47:01):
I love stories. I love hearing other people's stories. I
love telling my story.

Speaker 6 (47:10):
I love.

Speaker 5 (47:14):
My favorite thing about teaching. I also teach about both
teaching and journalism. This is gonna be another parallel to psychology.
Is when you see that you've helped someone understand something,
Like that light in a student's eyes, when you've helped

(47:35):
them kind of like get to that clique and they
understand something they didn't understand before is the most satisfying
thing that there is. Second to that same feeling can
come from writing. Sometimes it doesn't come from like in writing.
It's usually when I know that I've hit it, but

(47:56):
it's a more interior thing because I haven't had feedback yet.
But like when I know of like yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Was almost coming back to your second thing.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
I was gonna say, I can imagine seeing that light
is also part of what's rewarding about telling your story,
and I want to start there because yep, this is
un addiction the podcast, and one of our main goals
is to uncover the conversations we need to be having.

(48:28):
People can be so afraid because of stigma, because of
the things we think we know. People can be so
afraid of telling their story. But the freedom and the
joy of telling your story and seeing your story turn
the light on behind someone else's eyes, I think is incredible.

(48:50):
Is that part of what you experience when you tell your.

Speaker 5 (48:53):
Yeah, And it reminds me, you know, before I am
any of those things. I am an alcoholic in recovery,
and recovery is the center, or has to be, even
when I don't realize it's the center of my life,
even when my focus has shifted, if that makes any
sense at all, It is the center of my life

(49:14):
because without my sobriety, I in my connection to my
higher power, which I have a higher power, It's been
helpful to me. I know different people, different things, but
I believe that I'm having my spiritual connection. My spiritual
well being is the center of who I am and

(49:39):
is the thing that allows me to do all the
other things because without it, you know, I lived for
thirty eight years vamping, you know, like I guess, or
you could put it in psychological terms like survival mode,
just trying to get by. Yeah, just like trying to
I didn't get a lot of good instruction and as

(50:00):
a kid, you know, a lot of good patterns, so
I was just like you know, and perfectionism and overachieving
we're a big part of that. And drinking and using
drugs to some extent also a big part of that.
And that was not sustainable for me. And I also,

(50:28):
uh have bipolar disorder.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
And you know it's bad and also or bipolar disorder.

Speaker 5 (50:36):
Type disorder to type two. Okay, And that's a part
of my story. Uh, in fact, can talk more about it.
It's actually a bigger part of my story than I
kind of realized. My bottom as an alcoholic was a
pretty serious suicide attempt. And that is the thing that

(50:57):
reminds me that less I have my spirit virtual house
in order, as they say in AA or, unless I
maintain my connection to my higher power or spirit of
the universe or higher self or whatever term you want
to use. I will die.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
The stakes are the highest.

Speaker 5 (51:23):
One way or another.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (51:25):
I either drink myself to death like my mom did,
or I will become so unhappy and desperate and sad
and lonely and hopeless I might take my own life.
So it's a really good I sometimes say I feel
sorry for normal folks because they don't have to have
a spiritual life. They can just like get along without it.

(51:48):
Then I cannot. My life depends on having some sort
of space in my life for connection to something later
than myself. And maybe that gets us to talking about
bipolar disorder. So I've been sober for twelve years.

Speaker 11 (52:08):
Congratulation twelve years and six months and two days, Okay,
because my belly button birthday is six months away from
my sobriety date, so I am always very aware of
the six month, the half mark.

Speaker 5 (52:21):
And so whatever I loved AA, I stayed sober. So
that was That's sort of what happened, is I did
what they said, and I stayed sober, and I didn't
hate myself, so I kept doing it. And also AA
is you know for again type a person I liked
knowing that I was doing something extra, Like I'm an
extra person, right, So for me like AA, like I

(52:45):
always go to meetings, I always have searge position, I
always have a sponsor, like I do the deal, as
they say, And you know, part of that is because
I do believe that my life is on the line.
And part of that, I think over the years became
I started to think of sobriety as a thing that
I did, as a thing I was rewarded with for

(53:06):
doing AA perfectly.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Even twelve years later, you're still working your AA program,
And the question I wanted to ask was are you
doing it perfectly?

Speaker 5 (53:17):
So here's where you know, I said all the right
things and meetings there, but for the grace of God
go I like, you know, one day at a time.
And it's not like I didn't believe those things, but
I do believe that. Like when someone would share that
they relapsed, there was a part of me that was like, well,
you're not working as good a program as I am,
you know, Like, sorry, that's terrible. I'm an alcoholic too, right,

(53:44):
And then last month I had a manic episode, the
first one I've had since I got sober, and I
will not get into why it happened, because part of
what I've come to realize is it doesn't matter I
have suspicions, it has to do with them and you
know other stuff. But what I had to come am

(54:05):
coming to accept is I thought about my mental illness
kind of the same way, which is that if I
take care of it perfectly, then I will never have
another manic episode. I'm kind of like, I still get depressed,
but and that, as you know, like depression is always
a bigger problem for people with bipolar disorder. Yeah, and
I've had treatment resistant depression, but I haven't had a

(54:27):
manic but I haven't had a full manic episode. I've
had times where I felt.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Walking up the curve, but not all the way they are.

Speaker 5 (54:32):
Yeah, but I always also know what to do, like
exercise more, eat right, sleep, you know, meditate. And I
really thought I was managing my bipolar disorder and kind
of the same way I was managing my addiction, which
is like, all.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Right, perfectly, good job, you know, Yeah, way to.

Speaker 5 (54:51):
Go, Like you're gonna be set, You're never going to relapse,
You're never going to have a manic manic episode.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
And then I had one and can you just tell
all the listeners. Everyone may not know what it's like
to have a manic episode, if you're if you're comfortable
with it, what it was like for you.

Speaker 5 (55:08):
Oh god, it's hard to describe.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
And if you're not comfortable.

Speaker 5 (55:11):
I can try because I want people to know it's
you are not yourself. It is and you can interject
with your knowledge. But it's kind of like being psychotic.
It's it is not my personality. It is a version
of me.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
But even I.

Speaker 5 (55:29):
Found myself saying and doing things that like I was
angrier and more self pitying and more impulsive and like bolder,
and I inside there was a part of me that
was like, what the fuck, Like what is going on?

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Huh?

Speaker 5 (55:45):
Like this is not you?

Speaker 1 (55:47):
Like and other people also noticed this is not you,
like well, yeah.

Speaker 5 (55:51):
Because it's part of it. I actually it was a
more extreme manic episode than I've ever had. I think
because I wasn't drinking. I think because there was no.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Alcohol to like I would just put a lid on it,
put a.

Speaker 5 (56:01):
Lid on it, so like I had times my thoughts
were racing so fast I could barely speak like and
that also had never really happened to that degree, and
it is it is. I remember having kind of a
thought within a thought, which is that if this doesn't stop,
I will be creepy, I will lose it, I will

(56:23):
lose my mind, I will never come back, I will
not be able to function in the world. And like,
there are parts of it, there are parts of it
I don't remember, you know, I kind of lost like
a week and a half, two weeks in my life.
I hurt some people with my actions just not being
people trying to help and be pushing away and like

(56:44):
being not graceful about it and then being self like
asking for help and rejecting it. I think for a
manic episode, I handled it kind of the best case
you can. But it happened, and I was powerless to
not have it happen. And I'm realizing, you know a

(57:08):
few things. One of them is that I thought I
had accepted my diagnoses in the same way that I'd
accepted my addiction and alcoholism, and that you know, it's
just a part of me, it's who I am. Not ashamed. Yeah,
I don't think i'd fully like accepted.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Yeah, because after you had the manic episode, did you
feel shame or what brought you to this, like realization
I have not actually accepted this.

Speaker 5 (57:36):
I felt a lot of shame, and.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
As an illness I have.

Speaker 10 (57:39):
Yeah, I felt a lot of shame, and you know,
the damage I did to my relationships and it for
me has underscored well.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
For one thing, it felt a lot like a relapse.
I'm treating it a little bit like a relapse in
the way that I think about it and the way
that I'm handling it. Like I've kind of been going
to meetings. I've been drawing on the resources of my
friends who are also sober and people who been sober
longer than I am. And much like with a relapse,
I am trying to not go around on an apology

(58:13):
tour and instead just get better. But that's what people
want for me. As much as I would like to
be forgiven, that's what I would like. I would like
people to tell me it's okay, we understand, but I
can't control that.

Speaker 10 (58:30):
The idea of retemption just it's yours.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Have it here.

Speaker 5 (58:36):
You don't have to do anything. You are forgiven.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
You don't have to be ben't have to be.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
Perfect, you don't have to do anything you don't have
to say anything. I have just given you. The universe
has just presented you with this eternal forgiveness, unconditional love,
and it is yours to accept.

Speaker 12 (58:58):
I grew up in household with a father who was
an alcoholic, and I think I bring that up in
this space for a couple of reasons. One, obviously, there
is some tinge of the fact that we're going to
be talking about substance use in this in this space.

Speaker 11 (59:14):
But.

Speaker 12 (59:15):
I think I more want to sort of represent the
lack of tools my father was given growing up to
deal with the amount of pain and trauma that he
went through, you know, coming from the South during the
Great Migration, his father dying when he was ten, and

(59:37):
his mother doing whatever it took to you know, keep
the family going. He was at South Carolina State University
in nineteen sixty eight when there was an uprising of
students and a murder by the local police of three
individuals on that campus, one of which was his close friend.

(59:59):
And then he was drafted into Vietnam and so and
while he did not see direct combat, just being a
black man drafted into the military in nineteen sixty eight
and all that that brought with it. You know, I'm
not surprised that that's what he leaned on, because that's

(01:00:21):
what people leaned on. You lean on the crutch that
you're given, and sometimes that crutch holds you while you heal,
and sometimes that crutch becomes a permanent part of your
existence until it breaks. Right, and his crutch broke when
I was sixteen, and that's when he was lucky enough

(01:00:43):
to get into recovery, wise enough, lucky enough, blessed enough,
and unfortunately not in enough time for me to be
able to learn from his recovery, And so it became
a part of who I was. Also, even though I,
you know, lived in a nicer time, there was a

(01:01:04):
lot of pain and strife and racial trauma based on
where I grew up, like things from my childhood that
I didn't have a language to explain, and too undiagnosed
mental illnesses that also as a part of the upbringing
up two very poor parents. You know, you don't really

(01:01:24):
have time for emotion. You got to go to work,
da da da da da. And if you are dealing
with something, you're not dealing with it in a way
that other people see it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Right, So, and the cultural underpinnings.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
A lot of times people are not open to seeing that,
or the stigma even prevents the ability to try to
open up about it.

Speaker 12 (01:01:43):
Yeah, and I think that's I think shame for sure, right.
And when we think about the role of stigma, it
is sort of the manifestation of shame, right, And it's
in all aspects of our life, unfortunately, the desire to
not be embarrassed or called out or seen as weak

(01:02:04):
or whatever it is. And yeah, and you have a
very very prideful people who have gone through and survived
so much, and surviving being a part of our identity,
it seems like you should be able to just figure
it out or in our case, give it up to Jesus.

(01:02:25):
It's all played a part though, because even now, when
I think about what I do, a lot of that
performer in me came from church, right, seeing how people
were able to invoke emotion and feeling using parables and
stories and attaching them to moral lessons. And you know,

(01:02:48):
when it was done really, really good, all of those
things start to sink into who you are. And I think,
you know, my rebellion against family also ended up being
a rebellion against organized religion and I got into spoken
with poetry, and that is his own church of sorts,
you know, the whole idea, The same thing is happening,

(01:03:12):
different morals, different rules, different values being displayed, but we're
trying to invoke, We're trying to move people, we're trying
to connect, and we are naming ourselves and we're naming
our feelings, and we're naming the things around us in
the world that we want to see changed or better.
And I've spent many, many, many many years and those

(01:03:34):
spaces at open mics, hosting and all of that sort
of culminating with a life dedicated to youth development into
this space where I am right now, which is as
someone who is still cultivating his own ability to tell story,
but more concerned about creating a world where other people

(01:03:57):
can use story in the same way that I have.
As far as the intentional reflection, the filling in of
our past so that we feel less and chaos about
our future. Also, maybe above all of that is the
realization that while there are things that happen to us,

(01:04:21):
that ultimately we have the opportunity to be the primary
authors of our own character and our own story based
on how we teach ourselves to respond to the things
that happen to us. When people ask me, and you know,
people ask me flippantly sometimes back in the day, especially
when I was out really a disciple of spoken word

(01:04:42):
poetry and poetry workshops, like does the world really need
more poets? And my response to folks is, I'm not
crying to create a world of more poets. I'm trying
to create more poetically minded people, right, Because when I
sit back and I write, I I practice self forgiveness.

(01:05:02):
I practice reflection, and then I practice the ability to
pull reason from the things that have happened to me
so that I get to choose what I learned from
this lesson from this thing that happened. One of the
things that have always one of the quotes that I

(01:05:22):
think has always bothered me that the platitudes that people
throw around is that everything happens for a reason. And
that's great if that's what you believe, and if you
are able to stop at that as you're like, all
you need to be satisfied in the universe is to
know that things happen for a reason.

Speaker 11 (01:05:40):
Cool.

Speaker 12 (01:05:40):
I don't think most people are like that, and I
feel that most people walk away from that statement feeling unsatisfied.
And so when I say poetically minded people, people who
can reflect and think forward, it's whether or not you
believe things happen for a reason. It is our responsibility
to pull reason from the things that happen. Yeah, And
that's how we start to understand that I have a

(01:06:05):
place in things that happened to me, even if I
didn't want those things to happen to me. Right, like
the moment the initial thing happens. If I'm practicing mindfulness,
if I'm practicing intention, if I'm practicing emotional maturity, I
am giving myself the ability to respond in a way

(01:06:26):
that is in sync with the best version of myself
or the version of myself that I want to be
when there aren't stressful things happening. Right, I feel that
when people are looking for the motivation to change, or
the courage to face something difficult, or the ability to
work through a trauma or mental health issue, the sound

(01:06:51):
bidiness of the world throws out certain things without making
them tangible. Right. And so know, coming from a church background,
it tends to stop with give it to Jesus. Everything
happens for a reason. God has a plan great I
don't want to isolate those people. The understanding, the acceptance

(01:07:14):
of the hardship of existence is only half. It's like
saying recovery is equal to sobriety, and it's not right.
Like the sobriety is a tool in my recovery. My
recovery is trying to live every day the best version
of myself, and the best version of myself needs to
live and love and love and risk and be able

(01:07:36):
to get out in the world and connect again and
get over the things that I thought I needed the
crutch of the substance to deal with.

Speaker 3 (01:07:46):
But if I just.

Speaker 12 (01:07:48):
Am dealing in the unnegative space right of not doing
a thing, then I put myself in a box. And
what I really want to do is put the suptions
in the box, and that I want to live in
the infinite space that's around it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
You know what, I.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Love it. I love it all right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
Thank you so much for tuning in, And if you
like this episode, please check out my book on addiction,
Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available
at Barnes Andnoble Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold. If you like to this episode,
please share it with someone you think may need to

(01:08:32):
hear it. Also, please subscribe to this podcast and leave
a five star review that helps us reach any and
everyone who may be looking for support in the face
of addiction.

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Host

Dr. Nzinga Harrison, MD

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 19: Recap: Pathways and Stigma