June 25, 2024 • 44 mins
Laura Willoughby MBE is the founder of the world’s largest mindful drinking movement, Club Soda, and the UK’s foremost expert in low and no alcoholic drinks. Laura began a cultural revolution of not drinking "for tonight or good" after she decided to quit drinking and attended an unethical workshop on alcohol cessation.
In this episode, you'll learn how Club Soda evolved into a campaign, the work Laura's doing to make pubs in the UK a more inclusive place that profits everyone, differences in no and low-alcohol communities between the UK and the US, and Laura's journey of many paths to found Club Soda.
Club Soda is the UK's mindful drinking specialist. Experts in alcohol and behavior change, they also run the Club Soda Tasting Room & Bar in Covent Garden. The Tasting Rooms are a space for consumers to try and buy low and no alcohol drinks and for brands to connect with consumers and the trade.
Club Soda is a social impact B Corp Business and creates change, choice and connection through research, events, drinks expertise, corporate workshops, menu conclusion and more.
You can find Club Soda at joinclubsoda.com on social @joinclubsoda and at: The Club Soda Tasting Rooms, 39 Drury Lane, London, WC2B 5RR
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.
I'm a Board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
Laura Willoughby is the founder of Club Soda, a social
impact organization that helps people drink more mindfully and live well.
(00:45):
Club Soda promotes the availability of low and no alcohol drinks.
They offer courses and workshops that support people to cut down,
take breaks from drinking, or stop for good, and create
connections through online and real world events. Laura was inspired
to found Club Soda after attending a workshop about alcohol
(01:07):
cessation that left her frustrated and angry at the lack
of help available outside of the medical profession. This was
such an incredible conversation about the cultural revolution that Laura
really is a founder of in the UK, which I'm
thrilled to say is making its way to the US.
So let's jump in and learn about it. Thank you
(01:29):
so much. So welcome Laura to the Unaddictioned podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
So nice to meet you and lovely to meet you too.
It's really exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So I'm first of all going to start and say, like,
I'm a super fan of LO and no alcohol.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh, it's such a new thing, so not everybody is.
So that's really interesting. We can dig into that.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, we'll get into it. So I'll tell you about
an addiction podcast. So I'm in zinga psychiatrist and addiction
medicine doctor here in the United States, and I recently,
which is crazy, five months ago now have my first
book come out and it's called un addiction, which is
a word that we made up.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'm more for words that you make up.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, Like you know, there's not a word that gets
across that you need to get across, so we made
up un Addictioned. The name of the book is six
mind changing Conversations that could Save a life. And the
idea is what do we need to unlearn about addiction
that we think we know? What do we need to
undo in terms of stigma that's killing people, and what
(02:38):
do we need to uncover in terms of conversations that
could help save a life. And so the podcast is
trying to do those three things, like just have conversations
with a ton of amazing, freaking people who have their
own journey in a million different ways, so that people
(02:59):
listening could be like, oh, maybe I'll try it. And
so Jada shout out to our producer for this show
found you and was like in saying that you have
to have Laura on the show. And I looked about
you and I was like, hey, you are correct. So
so glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh well, let's hope we do it justice, right.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, So can you tell the listeners who is Laura?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I'm Laura Willoughby. I'm in the UK, as you
might be able to hear from my very British accent,
and I run Club Soda, which I've been running for
nearly ten years now. And I started off Club Soda
to be about behavior change, around change and drinking whatever
your goal, and be a bit like, you know, a
slimming club, but with alcohol, because not such thing existed.
(03:40):
And I'm slowly but surely and there's a story behind
all of that, we've evolved and now we spend a
lot of time. We still have our courses, but we
spend a lot of time campaigning for pubs, bars and
restaurants to have a better range of low and no
alcohol drink. Yes, moment we actually have a shop and bar.
That is part of that journey. It's not because I
(04:02):
want to be a retailer, because to be honest, I've
bit shit at it. But it's because by putting all
of those products in one space and normalizing it and
bringing venues in so they can try and sample and
play around with product, we can begin to shift the narrative.
And what's quite interesting is the lower no market started
in the UK in twenty seventeen. It's hitting the States now,
(04:25):
but we were the first adopters, which I can only
assume is because we started from a really low base.
That's all I can say. Because we're big, hefty drinkers
in the UK.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I mean, that is so cool. Twenty seventeen is not
a long time ago. That's like just now for that
to be kind of the origin of the low and
know And.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Until that point it was a few dusty bottles of
really substandard alcohol free beer on the shelves and that
way your options.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So you kind of gave a little teaser. You're like,
it's a story for how we got to be here now,
so tell us about So did club sodas start in
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
No, we started in twenty fifteen, oh before. I started
working on club soda in twenty fourteen, and basically because
I gave up drinking in twenty twelve. And for anyone
who doesn't know, I've got a background in, you know,
working in the charitable sector and public service. I was
an elected local authority councilor for a long time in
(05:22):
the UK. I've stood for parliament several times. I'm a
campaigner by background. But when I gave up drinking, I
actually went on a one day workshop because after spending
years saying I must give up and having tons of
quidlet next to my bed that was mostly covered in
red wine stains, I decided that that wasn't the best
learning style for me. Trying to read a book, particularly
(05:42):
when you're continually hungover, it's actually really quite difficult. So
I decided to go on a one day course because
that just immersing myself for a day felt like the
right thing to do. But actually the one day course
was so unethical made me so angry I never drank again.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
No, what was about it? Well, because this sounds like
it's going to fall into the unlearned and undo.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Well, well, it's interesting because first I never wanted to
go anywhere near AA for lots of reasons. It's I know,
it's a lot bigger in the States than it is
in the UK, but it didn't suit who I feel
I am, and I don't like a lot of the language,
the disease based language and the higher power language, so
I wasn't going to go near AA. Look, we do
(06:25):
have public health services in the UK, so you can
go to drug and alcohol services that are free and
publicly funded, but they mainly are available during the day.
They're mainly aimed at people like I was in charge
of commissioning them, so you know, I knew where they were,
but they were not they I didn't feel they were
right for me either. I went on this one day course,
which is actually by a very popular company that also
(06:47):
does smoking cessation. That might give you a clue who
that might be. I shouldn't really say who it is,
but basically they just read the book that they have
written during the day, but in the room were people
who are clearly pendant drinkers who were told to stop immediately,
which is dangerous, and also not given any support. And
(07:08):
I don't, you know, I don't believe that you can
work with people who are you know, vulnerable, who've been
told by their doctors they have to give up or
they're going to die, who have got quite traumatic family
situations and have tried time and time again and take
money off of them and then send them out into
the world without any support around that. So when I
(07:30):
set up Club Soda, I got a small grant for
ideas that might change the world and started to look
at whether there was at least an online solution for
people that's based around behavior change science that allowed people
who've got the capacity to help themselves to take some
steps towards doing that, because actually, if you can help
those people already capable of helping themselves, then you relieve
(07:53):
some of that pressure anyway, and for some people, going
to you know, drug and alcohol services, which are really
still quite hard to access the UK anyway, was not
a good option. What they wanted to do was talk
to other people doing something similar to them, so they
could read about what goes on and realize that if
you give up drinking or cut down your drinking, the
sky doesn't fall in. And so that's where club Soda started.
(08:15):
But then in twenty fifteen and surprisingly our members started
to moan about the lack of choices in pubs and
bars and so okay law saying don't drink, we go out,
but it's all a load of crab, and so I did.
We got some funding for a piece of research called
Nudging Pubs, where we went and we spoke to loads
of pubs in a particular area and worked out what
(08:38):
it would take to get them to think more about
their non drinking customers. And we identify and we identified
there's a lack of product. So the choices were coco
lemonade and sometimes there might be a nice craft soda,
but that was about it. That wholesalers are part of
the gatekeepers on what goes into pubs and bars, because
(09:00):
most pubs and venues and restaurants here in the UK
will order from one of probably four wholesalers, not predominantly,
and they decide what ends up going into venues. And
then also we decided that really every venue should be
run by a woman, because every space that we went
to where a woman was running it, they were a
lot more conscious of the fact that they wanted pregnant
(09:21):
women to come in during lunch time down their drinking.
So that's what started this ball rolling of you know, ultimately, Zinger,
you can't change who you are, and I am a
campaigner and I couldn't change the fact that people presented
me a problem. I wanted to work out how to
change it. So after trying to set up a proper
grown up business helping people, what I've basically built is
(09:43):
a campaign and everything we've done is built from there.
And you know, we did a pub guide after that,
and then just at that point, some alcohol free at
the start of twenty seventeen started to come on the market,
so Heinhly can launch their zero zero Big Drop launch
their beer seed Lip had just been going about six
months seven months, and we thought, well, you know what,
(10:04):
we should put a festival on with all these drinks
and let people come. And I was really frightened no
one's going to come, but we had this amazing sort
of afternoon festival where hundreds of people turned up, and
that's where it all started. And ultimately, you know, switching
from an alcoholic drink to an alcohol free drink is
one behavior change technique you can have in your toolbox,
(10:26):
but it's a significant one. It's got the potential to
be quite transformative for society, not just the individual. And
so we're leaning into that particular behavior change technique. Really,
that's where we are. You've got it all in one goes.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh my god, it was so good. I was like,
where's my popcorn? Yeah, where's my popcorn? And my my
alcohol free sparkling rose, which is my favorite? Oh yeah, nice,
But I love this so much. So my husband and
I have just started becoming like obsessed with alcohol free.
(11:02):
I like sparkling wine. That's like the only thing that
I like to drink. He'll do the beers. We have
some cocktails. But when I did the book launch, I
did a completely alcohol free book launch and put like
all of these different yeah, put all of these different
options in front of people, and like, I did not
(11:23):
even know there was a Heineken zero zero and a
Corona alcohol free. Why are they're not commercials? Heineken Well,
to be honest, in the UK, in the UK.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
They they sponsor the football. There's advert really they like America,
is It's coming to you? They spend twenty five percent
of their marketing budget on their zero zero. Yeah really,
and Guinness sponsors. Guinness zero zero sponsors the rugby. All
I can say is I think it will come. Heineken's
(11:55):
a European company, but you've got a brewing in the States. Yeah,
really big. And you know, I think the Corona zero.
You know, they're sponsoring the Olympics, so that's going to
be in everybody's front room. It's a little bit controversial,
but you know, and I think that's really exciting for
all of the small brands that create in this space.
(12:15):
And there are lots of them and I love them dearly,
and they're most of what we have in the shop.
They will never have the budgets that a big drinks company,
a big global drinks companies like AB and Bevon and
heine can have. And so them putting it right in
front of people's faces in sports venues, putting it on
draft in bars, all of that sort of stuff will
really make the difference. And it shows you what's very
(12:38):
different now from when you know, there have been other times,
like in the seventies, I was a little attempt to
get alcohol free into the public domain that didn't really
work very well in the UK. The product was very terrible,
but taste is what's bringing people back to product. And
I guess the most important thing for everyone to know
is that it's moderation that's driving the trend. So you
(13:03):
may be going alcohol free, but we're all in this together,
it's my view, and a bit like disabled access, that
makes the world better for everyone. Good alcohol free drinks
makes socializing better for everyone because it allows people to moderate.
It normalizes not drinking, and therefore, if that had been
(13:23):
around when I was younger, that might have been a
very different story for me. So I'm really interested to
or excited to say to people, you know, this is
part of a big societal shift. We wanted to stick
and this is global. So you know, people who and
I'm sober too, but people who are sober keep very
(13:44):
I'm very conscious they're sobriety and very protective of it
in the right way. But actually there's a lot more
in common with people who are moderating than we think,
and together we actually become quite a significant market that's
worth addressing and then we get delicious drinks.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah exactly, I love it so much. So in the book,
we I lay out like this sixth piece framework about
evaluating your own risk factors that are driving a risk
for whatever addiction. So in this case, let's talk about alcohol.
And so it says like, there are you know, three
buckets biological, psychological, environmental, and environmental includes cultural environmental and
(14:26):
physical environmental. And there are those things you're born into,
so inherited biological, psychological, environmental. And then are those things
that you acquire along your life, so acquired biological, psychological, environmental.
And in the acquired environmental section, I talk about starting
(14:46):
a cultural revolution. And this is really what Club Soda is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Absolutely, And it's only one part of the mix, because
you know, I have other views on everything from the
health economics of our sort of stuff. But I also
don't believe in banning alcohol. So you know, it's a
really interesting space to be in. But I I guess,
because I've got politics background, I'm quite in I mean,
(15:12):
really interested in systems change. And of course, in order
to change the way the world works, you are right,
we need to change the stories that we grow up
in because you know, my dad was a big drinker,
killed him when he was fifty seven. I inherited my
dad's drinking habits and his boobs, so you know, absolutely
they're definitely not my mum's, so you know, and you
(15:37):
know culture in our family, drinking was a big part
of it. You know, Dad will always go to the
pub and we actually lived in a pub and ran
a pub for a short while. So there's lots in
our family stories that is inherited over hundreds and hundreds
of years because alcohol is present in our homes and
we tell all sorts of stories about it and we've
normalized it so for so long. And it's really interesting
(15:59):
to see women my age and in the UK, women
of my age, so wine just turned fifty, are all
now going through menopause and so they're really lots of
reevaluating drinking. But we're the biggest drinking generation of women
ever in Britain. We're the Laddeck generation for a whole
load of cultural reasons. One was the shift in gender
(16:20):
dynamics in the workplace around the late eighties, where it
was no longer acceptable for the men to go to
work to the pub in the evening and women to
look after the kids on their own. Wine became affordable
and in the supermarket, and so couples would buy wine
to drink at home. And wine itself is a whole
different beast to other drinks in terms of how it
(16:40):
impacts you. And we thought quality was drinking as much
as the lads and I would, you know, drink the
lads under the table at university. So you know, all
of those things together have created this sort of time
bomb for women of my age. And you're seeing a
lot of women in my age dying from alcohol issues,
but also loads giving it up and going you know,
it's not serving my mental health, it's not helping me
(17:01):
through menopause. And I can eat as much kale as
I like by undo all the hard work if I'm
smashing back a bottle of wine in the evening. And
so you can just see from that example how many
things shifted in the late eighties early nineties for my demographics.
So just imagine how that's been over time that all
these things, and to undo all of that, we need
(17:22):
to have products in place. Talk to venues about the
fact that they lose money if they've not got good
alcohol free that socializing is actually changing. Young people have
driven a real shift in socializing in the way that
we socialize, particularly in Britain. You're a little less booze
heavy in some respects in the States. And so and
(17:43):
I've got this massive list of what I call barriers
to adoption that are everything from government legislation all the
way through to how we talk about drinking and how
we talk to venues and how we change away forms work.
Small things, but you know they can really make a difference.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
No, it's true all of that. And we I recently,
maybe it was four six months ago, saw an article
and the headline was something like the younger generation is
turning away from alcohol. And I was like, yes, because
it's this, like you said, changing the stories that we
tell ourselves, those psychological and social factors that we Inherit
(18:25):
also our biological factors, right, So, like I have addiction
on both sides of my family, alcoholism on both sides
of my family. And so I'm telling my kids, listen,
we're genetically loaded. And so the way you can drink
may not be the way someone else can drink, or
the way they can do a line of cocaine may
not be the way you can do a line of cocaine, right,
and just making it, like you said, making it okay
(18:49):
to be like, I don't drink without people being like,
are you a weirdo?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And it's funny because from the plus sides of social
media is it means that the only people you speak
to about these things aren't your family, they are other people.
And after setting up Club Soda, you know, we started
up set up Club Soda when Instagram mustle its infancy,
but we're two years in Instagram was going mental and
suddenly you had lots of young people talking very positively
(19:15):
about changing drinking, and they were talking about how alcohol
causes anxiety. And my age group were taught that alcohol
was there to deal with anxiety. Right, So that shift
on its own is really really fundamental. And people listening
not to their parents but to other people about that
and their mental health I think has a massive, massive
(19:38):
impact on that. There's so I mean, there's so many
things to say, but you're absolutely right. It's about changing
those narratives and changing the stories and listening to different people.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
One of the concepts in the book is called the
magic formula, and I always start out by saying what
I love about it most is that it's not magic.
It's really understanding you're inherited biological psychological environmental, you're acquired
biological psychological environmental like what was it like when you
were little? What is it like now? And knowing that
(20:11):
there are an infinite number of factors that create an
infinite number of pathways into difficulty with alcohol we'll talk
about in this episode. And so to your point, AA
wasn't for you. The treatment that was available wasn't for you,
and so you created another path to your own journey. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Now there's lots of paths because people can find you know,
there's never one size fits all, and I think it's
really important.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's right, And I think that's the magic part.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah. And I think dipping into lots of things, not
just one thing, is also really important because you'll increase
your self efficacy, your ability to help yourself the more
you learn, and every time you try and don't succeed,
you're not failing. You're learning new things, and so it's
really important that every time you pick up new things.
(21:05):
But you know, for me, there's some real damage in
the language that AA has, particularly here in the UK,
I mean in America, people are far more buoyant about
talking about being alcoholic, and it's a protective status in
the States. But alcoholics are a really weird word here.
It's an identity and it's not a medical condition here.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Oh well, we're not too far from there. In the Yeah,
too much created.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
But it creates a view that there's a line and
you're either one side of it and you're okay exactly
the other and you're not. And that's not true because
you don't Some people don't need to drink very much
for it to be impacting on their mental health. And
some people are drinking a shed load because their tolerance
is so high. And this is a wine thing really
(21:47):
in the UK that they're managing to function, but they
don't know what it's like to function. And that's where
I was without quite a lot of alcohol. And so
you know, you've managed to do amazing things in your life,
and therefore it seems like you've got your ship together,
but actually it's amazing. I just tell you, like, I
was a pain in the ass when I was drinking,
(22:07):
but I'm even bigger pain in the ass now right,
much more.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
And you were not fulfilling your full potential.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I was not feeling my potential to be really annoying
to lot people. So you know it's there for you guys.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It's so true. So one of the things I hope
that we do as part of this podcast is help people.
I don't know, do you hear my cats running around
like Baniac?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Well, how about Zinger? Do you hear my cats running
around like?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Maybe my cats hear your cats? Because there is.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Cats anything their feed away. They scratch on the scratchboard,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Having we're having a cat off live on the podcast.
But about that magic formula, and I want to touch
on two things that you said when you said earlier
and when you just said there are a lot of
different things, and so Club Soda is right now focusing
on one behavioral modification tool in the box, which is
(23:11):
replacing some of your full alcohol drinks with low or
no alcohol drinks. And so I want to ask you
what are other tools that are in your formula right now?
And maybe how has your formula changed over time so
that people listening can be like, oh, I'll try that,
Oh I'll try that. And before you jump in, what
you said that I loved that I want to magnify
(23:34):
each time you try to make a change, you're not failing.
You're learning something, learning a new tool, saying that work
that didn't work. And a while back, I saw this
behavioral change graphic and it had a spiral, but it
was spiraling up. And so it was like, each time
(23:56):
you make an effort, you're not spiraling down the toilet ball,
you're spiraling up towards you. And so maybe you can
talk to us about what your spiral has been like.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, I mean if I was to talk about tools.
So we we have some online courses and we actually
published a book. It was just before lockdown, so it
all got a bit lost in the miss of time.
It's even American version of the book.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Which is tell us the name of the book.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Which is called How to be a Mindful Drinker. And
I think I'm not a trained coach. I don't want
to be a coach. It was far too much listening.
I have skills. But what I've done is we've stayed
in our lane, and so we've built some stuff with
the help of scientists. We've got some funding from the
Welcome Trust and some people who are coaches to build
(24:41):
behavior change courses that are very specific, and a lot
of that is about getting people to not focus on
on really what they're whether they're stopping or moderating at
the very beginning, but instead to look at what they
want their few to be and where they think alcohol
(25:02):
can help them do that. So it's really interesting because
you talk about all those learned and environment intrinsic and actsic,
external fact and all those factors, and of course we
all have a future that we look for, because otherwise
we wouldn't buy so many self help books. Honestly, I
thought the more self help books I'd buy, the more
perfect iou become. But I've realized that doesn't work because
(25:22):
you've actually got to do the work in the books.
Who are you? So focusing on who it is that
you want to be and where alcohol fits into that
will help keep you motivated because otherwise, when you're changing
your drinking, you're always considering the loss and gain, and
so I think that's really important. And actually discovering new
(25:43):
drinks is now a new gain that didn't exist when
I was giving up. Although when I gave up, honestly,
I bought all sorts of weird drinks from America and
got them shipped over and I had a soda stream.
I had this whole you know, like, let's find something
interesting to drink type thing. And then I discovered tea,
which for a brit you may think so weird, but
I never drank tea. And then I discovered really expensive
(26:03):
loose sleeve tea. So now I like, you know, spend
three pounds a gram on on tea. Anyway, that's a
whole other way. Again, that's a whole other podcast singer.
But you do need to keep yourself occupied, right, and
you need to occupy yourself with things that are a
joy in their own right. You may never follow them through.
I did some sewing. I did some terrible sewing. When
(26:25):
I first gave up drinking. I sat with a really
cheap sewing machine and produced a load of rubbish. But
it kept.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Did you come up with the idea like, okay, I'm
going to.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Sell well, I felt like it's well, you know, all
those things that you feel you should do, and should
is a terrible word. Anyway, I gave I gave them
a go, and they weren't for me. But for a
short while they occupied my hands, and they occupied my
evenings and they were an interesting puzzle. And I do
believe that when you were at a crossroads that you
should follow every path. And some paths will take you
(26:57):
on a long and exciting journey, and some of them
would just be a for short little meander and they
will keep you occupied for a time. And when you
give up drinking, you do release a lot of time.
So you need to focus on a future and not
focus on the things that you're not doing, and try
out some things you may never have tried before and
see if they work for you and they may not,
(27:18):
and discover new things, because I do think giving up
drinking is a bit like one hundred liitle epiphanies. You
learn lots about yourself, You learn lots about your emotions,
and you learn lots about your capabilities. And for me,
I learned to trust my gut. And also it really
brought me back to my values and I'm really values
led and I you know, I really felt reconnected me
with my value. So you'll learn lots of things, but
(27:40):
they should all be seen as positive things that you
now have time to explore that you might not have
had when really you're thinking about where your next drink
is or you're hungover because you've drunk too much and
your time just contracts. And so that focus on positive
the future, trying things you never tried before, pushing yourself
your comfort zone is really really interesting and I think
(28:03):
they are interesting tools to explore. And one of our
podcast series is called The Next Round, where we talk
to people about the things that they've done since they've
given up drinking. And some people have done stand up comedy,
and some people have swum long distances, and some people
have just you know, done some simple things like taking
up crochet. But they're all very personal and they're all
(28:25):
really positive and lovely, and so I do want to
encourage people to make a list of those things that
they thought they would try and never have and find
where that add education courses or that community or meetup
is that you can join in, but also focus on
that bigger long term goal on who you want to
be when you grow up. I mean, I have to
say I'm still working on that one.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
But I mean a good life I think is like
actually never getting to the grown up part, right, It's
just like keep working on it forever.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Thanks Zinger, that makes me feel a lot better.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Come here, for you.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Really, I'm just like, I went to somebody's house the
day and it was all perfect and they had nice
art on the walls, and you know, and I just thought,
somewhere I've got a little bit wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
So I love this so much because you like, you
say these phrases and they jump on me and then
I love them. You're like, there are a lot of
different paths, and some of them lead to amazing, exceptional things,
and some of them lead to something mediocre. But take
a lot of different paths, and I think that's really
(29:32):
part of you know, if we go all the way
back in the history of where we I'll say quote
went wrong. And my position on AA is that it
came out of nowhere when there was nothing. So I'm
grateful for that. But I think the mistake in it,
which is a human mistake, is like and this is
the only way. And really what you're talking about is
(29:56):
all of those paths and the courage to take a
risk by walking down that path, not knowing if it's
the path for right now or if it's the path.
I also think not putting the pressure on it being
the path forever's.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Absolutely and I often feel really touched by members of
Club Soda who talk to me about the fact that
they're really worried about friendships when they give us drinking
or what they do with their time. And that also
is partly social, which is that we've learned to spend
so much time around alcohol that understanding what's around and
(30:33):
not noticing that loads of other people are not drinking
and they're getting on with really fun stuff is really
interesting because so much of what you've done has been
you know, I speak to people whose Christmases are all
about here, we decorate the tree and we do that
with brandy, and then we do this around Christmas, and
it involves this alcohol. And each each tradition around Christmas
(30:53):
is around the alcohol and not around Hey, let's drive
there for two hours and go ice skating and then
drive back because you can because you can drive. And
all of those traditions are about doing things, and of
course there are lots of people out there doing that stuff,
but when you're drinking, you never notice them, and so
it does feel like a really frightening thing. But there
are walking clubs, there are cinema clubs. There are actually
(31:16):
more than ever there are social occasions that are not
focused around alcohol, and in the UK that's changing really fast.
It's not a good night out just to stand there
with a drink anymore. Nobody will stand for that anymore.
If you'd said to me when I moved to London
in nineteen ninety six that you'll be able to buy
dessert in Soho at one in the morning, I would
have thought that was really funny. But you know, our
dessert culture is growing alongside our changing drinking culture because
(31:41):
cake is now considered to be the treat, not booze.
Cake doesn't give you a hangover unless you know you,
you know, probably a ton of it, maybe with some
alcohol that in it. Maybe that dessert might do you in.
But you know, it's we're reframing what treat and reward
is and you know, some things a lot healthier, and
(32:01):
definitely cake is healthier than smashing out a load of
beer in the evening.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Definitely, even though my doctor recently diagnosed me with high cholesterol,
which I'm dismayed, but whatever. So I made some boy
behavioral changes and the number one behavioral change I had
to make was decreased sugar. And I was like, this
is the meanest thing anyone has ever said.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
To me, well singer, But then surely it's about picking
and choosing your sugar, right.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
It is correct?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Should I tell you? Should I tell you my fun fact?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yes, give it to me, would you ready?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Once you take alcohol out of beer, it's one of
the healthiest things that you can drink. It's not to
process food, it's for ingredients. There is no sugar in
it most of the beers, and that's one that some
might have some malts syrup put into, but don't go
near those. You know, most of the alcohol free beers
in the UK have got under zero point five grams
(32:57):
per hundred mils of natural sugars in, so that's nothing thing.
And it's also rehydrating and full of vitamins that you
now absorb because you didn't absorb them when it had
alcohol in. So next to water, it's probably one of
the healthiest things that you can drink, right, So smash out,
get rid of all those sodas, learn love beer, which
I have done. Oh, and then you can save your
sugar for the I know I can.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Save my sugar for the cake. Because if you saw
the way my eyes lit up when you were like
the dessert scene is growing, I was like no to
self trip to London, yeah, which I've never been to London.
But if I come, can we go out for cake?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Oh? Absolutely, we can do it. Rocotta hot cakes. Actually
they're quite healthy. I think maybe not with the maple
syrup on, but it's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I just moderate. I just moderate all the way into
that trip. And then you know, like bank my my
alignment and.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
You can drink with an alcohol free beer so that
it councels it out.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I reckon our trip is planned. It is we are
getting close, which happens when you're having a good time.
And so I always say near the end. Literally, this
is what I always say, Laura. Sometimes at the beginning
I remember to tell people I'm going to ask this question,
but I'm always saying it at the end because I
(34:11):
basically never remember at the beginning to tell people that
I'm going to ask this question. So I want to
talk a little bit more, but right before we get out,
I'm going to ask you this question on addiction is
the word that we made up. If there's one thing
you want people to unlearn, or if there's one stigma
you want people to undo, or if there's one conversation
you want people to uncover what would it be. But
(34:35):
I'm just telling you I'm gonna ask that. I'm not
asking it. I'm not asking it right now. I'm gonna
ask it in like five minutes.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Oh but you need to ask me any questions you've
got about alcohol fee, drink singer, You've got me.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Hands tell us everything. So one, how does a drink
get alcohol free? Is there a difference between Like so
when I just went to a restaurant that the day
and there was like alcohol drink free menu and it
was like soda and sweet tea and lemonade, and I
was like, that's not what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
No, there's a solt drink.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, tell us what we're actually talking about, beer, wine, cocktails.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So we're talking about drinks that are designed for social
occasion rather than rehydrating, so they don't fit in the
soft drink occasion. And largely at the moment, they are
drinks that are designed to replicate an alcoholic drink, but
not soul. And there's a lot of things happening in
this space, but they're definitely designed around an occasion, so
they're not designed for you to drink at home on
(35:34):
your own during the day while you're working. They're designed
for you to drink when you're out and about in
a pub or bar or restaurant, or when you're socializing.
So that's the best way to do it. Because actually
there's some beautiful drinks that are low and sugar. They've
got apple cider vinegar at their base, right, which are shrubs,
which actually America used to drink a lot of during
the Prohibition era because shrubs use vinegar to extract flavor
(35:54):
and therefore there's a lot of acidity and bite in them.
But they're not a replica of an alcoholic drink, and
they can be a soda, but put into a really
nice spirit bottle, topped up with tonic, put with a
nice garnish, put inside a cocktail, they suddenly become a
drink that suit an occasion, and that occasion is one
where we've traditionally learnt to drink in. So that's how
i'd characterize them. So in that are kombuchers that maybe
(36:18):
are in a champagne bottle as opposed to the kombucci
you might be buying the health food store that's in
a can right screwtop, for example. Although I would always
certainly there's some really nice craft kombuchas that would sit
nicely alongside craft beers, for example. So there is obviously
a little wavy line, but they're definitely drinks that are
designed for adults as well, and so you would expect
(36:40):
to see them in the beer wine in spirits Aisle,
and therefore you should expect also to be age id'd
for them, because that's where.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
That I was age id'd, and I was surprised. One.
I was surprised because you see all there's gray hair,
I know, But two that's like it's alcohol.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
But I think we need to suck that up right,
because ultimately these drinks were to be in the beer
wine and spirit sile because they're aimed at adults for
an evening occasion, and till systems aren't that sophisticated, so
we just have to roll with it. The other thing
is is nobody in this space wants to be accused
of trying to encourage young people to drink by drinking
(37:16):
alcohol free Now, as much as I tell policy makers,
that's not the way alcohol works, because you learn to
like alcohol because of its effect, and so if people
drink lots of alcohol free beer, I'll be very surprised
if it encourage them to want to drink an alcoholic beer.
But definitely brands that have got an alcoholic brand like
Heineken or Guinness or any of those people are being
(37:37):
very careful to not be seen to be aiming at children.
So for both those reasons, we just need to suck
up being aged id'd and that's fine, Okay, I'll suck
it up. So there you are. So that's the difference
between an adult alcohol free drink and sort of a
soft drink. But obviously there are lots of flower sugar
and craft soft drinks that will also you know, mainly
(37:58):
attract grown up up rather than kids, mainly because they've
got less sugar and I suspect, but you know, so
they will also fit in there a little bit in
like kombouchas and sparkling teas and all of that sort
of stuff, which are also can be really beautiful. So
that's the difference between those. And then you ask about
how drinks become alcohol free loads of different methods. Some
things like you know, shrubs are you know, lots of
(38:21):
ingredients are steeped in vinegar. Some things are blended, some
things are blended with distilled botanicals just like a gin
would be. But obviously you need twice as much ingredient
because alcohol isn't present to be a flavor enhancer. Then
you've got things you've got naturally made beers that use
a arrested fermentation method. So Athletic I suspect to use
(38:43):
arrested fermentation method, which means that they can they use
a different yeast that ferments slower so they can stop
it at the right point so it doesn't forment anymore.
And then the brands that can get things down to
zero zero are because they dealkalize, so they put the
product an alcoholic product through dealkalization through spinning cone technology
(39:04):
to remove the alcohol. A lot of wines are also
done that way. But it's important to know that nothing
you put in your mouth is alcohol free. Even water
is not point not one.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
So even water is not point not one.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, there'll be things in water what is not one
hundred percent pure that have some natural flementation. You make
alcohol in your stomach, that's how we process it at all.
So so you know, to get down to zero zero.
You know, some of those alcohol free beers are less
alcohol in than cola, so you know, because even you know,
(39:38):
and a ginger beer can be quite you know, can
probably have zero point five percent alcohol depending on how
it's made. So you know, it's it's just that soft
drinks don't have to say any of that stuff, whereas
alcohol free adult drinks do. So it is a complicated space,
but it's really exciting because there's lots of innovation happening
and also lots of people using you know, functioning greendients
(40:00):
like Ashwa Gander and Lion's made and you know, natural
sources of caffeine and all of that sort of stuff,
which means that it helps deal with that loss of
verse and you feel when you're giving up drinking or
not drinking tonight, because it's something that does you some
good and you feel like it's giving you a little
bit of a lift and you're feeling you're getting a treat,
(40:21):
and that's you know, alcohol fits into our reward structure,
So why shouldn't our alcohol free drinks do as well?
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, I love because it's so just natural for you
Even you said just now you know, whether you're giving
up drinking or just not drinking tonight, which is like
that was just beautiful how it just rolled out. You're
not even thinking about it. I think like the closer
we can get to not making people give a blood
oath to never drink ever again, right, Like, it's okay
(40:51):
to just not be drinking tonight.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah. And if I had known that it was okay
not to drink tonight all those years ago, and that
there was a normal, things would be different for me.
So it's not my job to judge other people. It's
up to people to make their own decisions. Yeah. And
you know, if people are just drinking less alcohol overall,
then that's got to be a good thing, right, mm hmmmm.
(41:16):
And then if, like me, you realize that that trying
to moderate doesn't really work, then then giving up is
also an option. The sky doesn't fall in.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's right, The sky actually, can I say, can get brighter.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
It does apart from in the UK the minute where
it's raining in a bit. We won't talk about the weather.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
We won't talk about we won't to talk about the
UK Soweather. This has been amazing. So I'm going to
come around to the last question, which you were like,
I can answer this right now. I do not even
need a few minutes to think about this parting words
and they don't have to be in the structure. You
can give us whatever parting words you want to give
for our listeners. But would love to hear one thing
(41:57):
you want us to unlearn, undo or come you want
us to uncover.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I want people to know that drinking isn't compulsory. It
may we're in a society it makes it feel like
it's compulsory, but it's not. And we're often taught that
if it's something we're not enjoying, that we should drink more.
And so I also want to give people permission to
go home, because staying at things is not compulsory either.
And I think we all need to treat ourselves with
(42:23):
consent and care and realize that we can do things
even if society says that we should stay at things
or we should drink at things, it doesn't have to
be the case. And when you know it's not compulsory,
you can make a lot more positive and empowering decisions
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, you don't have to do it. Then, were that
was amazing?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Shall I tell you people where they can find us? Singer?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I was just about I looked at I know and
I was like, okay, and now I'm going to say,
where can people find you? Laura? Please tell our listeners
where they can find you, where they can get their
hands on all of the amazing stuff you're putting out
in the world for us.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, it's great, isn't it. I do a podcast as well.
It's the question I always forget to ask, which as
well was there? Because I say that there are two
things that I thought would improve with changing my drinking,
my memory and sleeping with inappropriate people, and neither of
those got better. So it's really upsetting when you find
out it's you all along and it wasn't the alcohol.
(43:19):
I have to say. So people can find us at
Join Club Soda on all social channels. We're even on
TikTok now, which has been fun. We are also on
joinclubsoda dot com and you can sign up to our
newsletter and we've got a big international following. I talk
a lot with all of the alcohol free shops and
bars across the world, and so we try and direct
(43:41):
people to those, even if we can't serve them in
the UK. But I cannot tell you how many Americans
we get in the shop. It's just a huge number
because we're in Covent Gardens, So if you're ever in London,
do come and find us in Covent Garden. We're in
Drury Lane. We have loads of events on at the
shop all the time, a lot everything from wine and
cheese events to all of them. So stuff site awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
I'm planning my trip. I'm so serious.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yeah yeah, come yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Thank you so much for coming on, Thank you so
much for tuning in. And if you like this episode,
please check out my book on Addiction, Six mind Changing
Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at Barnes Andnoble,
Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon and wherever books
(44:27):
are sold. If you like to this episode, please share
it with someone you think may need to hear it. Also,
please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star
review that helps us reach any and everyone who may
be looking for support in the face of addiction.
Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.
I'm a Board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
Laura Willoughby is the founder of Club Soda, a social
impact organization that helps people drink more mindfully and live well.
(00:45):
Club Soda promotes the availability of low and no alcohol drinks.
They offer courses and workshops that support people to cut down,
take breaks from drinking, or stop for good, and create
connections through online and real world events. Laura was inspired
to found Club Soda after attending a workshop about alcohol
(01:07):
cessation that left her frustrated and angry at the lack
of help available outside of the medical profession. This was
such an incredible conversation about the cultural revolution that Laura
really is a founder of in the UK, which I'm
thrilled to say is making its way to the US.
So let's jump in and learn about it. Thank you
(01:29):
so much. So welcome Laura to the Unaddictioned podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
So nice to meet you and lovely to meet you too.
It's really exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So I'm first of all going to start and say, like,
I'm a super fan of LO and no alcohol.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh, it's such a new thing, so not everybody is.
So that's really interesting. We can dig into that.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, we'll get into it. So I'll tell you about
an addiction podcast. So I'm in zinga psychiatrist and addiction
medicine doctor here in the United States, and I recently,
which is crazy, five months ago now have my first
book come out and it's called un addiction, which is
a word that we made up.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'm more for words that you make up.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, Like you know, there's not a word that gets
across that you need to get across, so we made
up un Addictioned. The name of the book is six
mind changing Conversations that could Save a life. And the
idea is what do we need to unlearn about addiction
that we think we know? What do we need to
undo in terms of stigma that's killing people, and what
(02:38):
do we need to uncover in terms of conversations that
could help save a life. And so the podcast is
trying to do those three things, like just have conversations
with a ton of amazing, freaking people who have their
own journey in a million different ways, so that people
(02:59):
listening could be like, oh, maybe I'll try it. And
so Jada shout out to our producer for this show
found you and was like in saying that you have
to have Laura on the show. And I looked about
you and I was like, hey, you are correct. So
so glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh well, let's hope we do it justice, right.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, So can you tell the listeners who is Laura?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I'm Laura Willoughby. I'm in the UK, as you
might be able to hear from my very British accent,
and I run Club Soda, which I've been running for
nearly ten years now. And I started off Club Soda
to be about behavior change, around change and drinking whatever
your goal, and be a bit like, you know, a
slimming club, but with alcohol, because not such thing existed.
(03:40):
And I'm slowly but surely and there's a story behind
all of that, we've evolved and now we spend a
lot of time. We still have our courses, but we
spend a lot of time campaigning for pubs, bars and
restaurants to have a better range of low and no
alcohol drink. Yes, moment we actually have a shop and bar.
That is part of that journey. It's not because I
(04:02):
want to be a retailer, because to be honest, I've
bit shit at it. But it's because by putting all
of those products in one space and normalizing it and
bringing venues in so they can try and sample and
play around with product, we can begin to shift the narrative.
And what's quite interesting is the lower no market started
in the UK in twenty seventeen. It's hitting the States now,
(04:25):
but we were the first adopters, which I can only
assume is because we started from a really low base.
That's all I can say. Because we're big, hefty drinkers
in the UK.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I mean, that is so cool. Twenty seventeen is not
a long time ago. That's like just now for that
to be kind of the origin of the low and
know And.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Until that point it was a few dusty bottles of
really substandard alcohol free beer on the shelves and that
way your options.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So you kind of gave a little teaser. You're like,
it's a story for how we got to be here now,
so tell us about So did club sodas start in
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
No, we started in twenty fifteen, oh before. I started
working on club soda in twenty fourteen, and basically because
I gave up drinking in twenty twelve. And for anyone
who doesn't know, I've got a background in, you know,
working in the charitable sector and public service. I was
an elected local authority councilor for a long time in
(05:22):
the UK. I've stood for parliament several times. I'm a
campaigner by background. But when I gave up drinking, I
actually went on a one day workshop because after spending
years saying I must give up and having tons of
quidlet next to my bed that was mostly covered in
red wine stains, I decided that that wasn't the best
learning style for me. Trying to read a book, particularly
(05:42):
when you're continually hungover, it's actually really quite difficult. So
I decided to go on a one day course because
that just immersing myself for a day felt like the
right thing to do. But actually the one day course
was so unethical made me so angry I never drank again.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
No, what was about it? Well, because this sounds like
it's going to fall into the unlearned and undo.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Well, well, it's interesting because first I never wanted to
go anywhere near AA for lots of reasons. It's I know,
it's a lot bigger in the States than it is
in the UK, but it didn't suit who I feel
I am, and I don't like a lot of the language,
the disease based language and the higher power language, so
I wasn't going to go near AA. Look, we do
(06:25):
have public health services in the UK, so you can
go to drug and alcohol services that are free and
publicly funded, but they mainly are available during the day.
They're mainly aimed at people like I was in charge
of commissioning them, so you know, I knew where they were,
but they were not they I didn't feel they were
right for me either. I went on this one day course,
which is actually by a very popular company that also
(06:47):
does smoking cessation. That might give you a clue who
that might be. I shouldn't really say who it is,
but basically they just read the book that they have
written during the day, but in the room were people
who are clearly pendant drinkers who were told to stop immediately,
which is dangerous, and also not given any support. And
(07:08):
I don't, you know, I don't believe that you can
work with people who are you know, vulnerable, who've been
told by their doctors they have to give up or
they're going to die, who have got quite traumatic family
situations and have tried time and time again and take
money off of them and then send them out into
the world without any support around that. So when I
(07:30):
set up Club Soda, I got a small grant for
ideas that might change the world and started to look
at whether there was at least an online solution for
people that's based around behavior change science that allowed people
who've got the capacity to help themselves to take some
steps towards doing that, because actually, if you can help
those people already capable of helping themselves, then you relieve
(07:53):
some of that pressure anyway, and for some people, going
to you know, drug and alcohol services, which are really
still quite hard to access the UK anyway, was not
a good option. What they wanted to do was talk
to other people doing something similar to them, so they
could read about what goes on and realize that if
you give up drinking or cut down your drinking, the
sky doesn't fall in. And so that's where club Soda started.
(08:15):
But then in twenty fifteen and surprisingly our members started
to moan about the lack of choices in pubs and
bars and so okay law saying don't drink, we go out,
but it's all a load of crab, and so I did.
We got some funding for a piece of research called
Nudging Pubs, where we went and we spoke to loads
of pubs in a particular area and worked out what
(08:38):
it would take to get them to think more about
their non drinking customers. And we identify and we identified
there's a lack of product. So the choices were coco
lemonade and sometimes there might be a nice craft soda,
but that was about it. That wholesalers are part of
the gatekeepers on what goes into pubs and bars, because
(09:00):
most pubs and venues and restaurants here in the UK
will order from one of probably four wholesalers, not predominantly,
and they decide what ends up going into venues. And
then also we decided that really every venue should be
run by a woman, because every space that we went
to where a woman was running it, they were a
lot more conscious of the fact that they wanted pregnant
(09:21):
women to come in during lunch time down their drinking.
So that's what started this ball rolling of you know, ultimately, Zinger,
you can't change who you are, and I am a
campaigner and I couldn't change the fact that people presented
me a problem. I wanted to work out how to
change it. So after trying to set up a proper
grown up business helping people, what I've basically built is
(09:43):
a campaign and everything we've done is built from there.
And you know, we did a pub guide after that,
and then just at that point, some alcohol free at
the start of twenty seventeen started to come on the market,
so Heinhly can launch their zero zero Big Drop launch
their beer seed Lip had just been going about six
months seven months, and we thought, well, you know what,
(10:04):
we should put a festival on with all these drinks
and let people come. And I was really frightened no
one's going to come, but we had this amazing sort
of afternoon festival where hundreds of people turned up, and
that's where it all started. And ultimately, you know, switching
from an alcoholic drink to an alcohol free drink is
one behavior change technique you can have in your toolbox,
(10:26):
but it's a significant one. It's got the potential to
be quite transformative for society, not just the individual. And
so we're leaning into that particular behavior change technique. Really,
that's where we are. You've got it all in one goes.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh my god, it was so good. I was like,
where's my popcorn? Yeah, where's my popcorn? And my my
alcohol free sparkling rose, which is my favorite? Oh yeah, nice,
But I love this so much. So my husband and
I have just started becoming like obsessed with alcohol free.
(11:02):
I like sparkling wine. That's like the only thing that
I like to drink. He'll do the beers. We have
some cocktails. But when I did the book launch, I
did a completely alcohol free book launch and put like
all of these different yeah, put all of these different
options in front of people, and like, I did not
(11:23):
even know there was a Heineken zero zero and a
Corona alcohol free. Why are they're not commercials? Heineken Well,
to be honest, in the UK, in the UK.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
They they sponsor the football. There's advert really they like America,
is It's coming to you? They spend twenty five percent
of their marketing budget on their zero zero. Yeah really,
and Guinness sponsors. Guinness zero zero sponsors the rugby. All
I can say is I think it will come. Heineken's
(11:55):
a European company, but you've got a brewing in the States. Yeah,
really big. And you know, I think the Corona zero.
You know, they're sponsoring the Olympics, so that's going to
be in everybody's front room. It's a little bit controversial,
but you know, and I think that's really exciting for
all of the small brands that create in this space.
(12:15):
And there are lots of them and I love them dearly,
and they're most of what we have in the shop.
They will never have the budgets that a big drinks company,
a big global drinks companies like AB and Bevon and
heine can have. And so them putting it right in
front of people's faces in sports venues, putting it on
draft in bars, all of that sort of stuff will
really make the difference. And it shows you what's very
(12:38):
different now from when you know, there have been other times,
like in the seventies, I was a little attempt to
get alcohol free into the public domain that didn't really
work very well in the UK. The product was very terrible,
but taste is what's bringing people back to product. And
I guess the most important thing for everyone to know
is that it's moderation that's driving the trend. So you
(13:03):
may be going alcohol free, but we're all in this together,
it's my view, and a bit like disabled access, that
makes the world better for everyone. Good alcohol free drinks
makes socializing better for everyone because it allows people to moderate.
It normalizes not drinking, and therefore, if that had been
(13:23):
around when I was younger, that might have been a
very different story for me. So I'm really interested to
or excited to say to people, you know, this is
part of a big societal shift. We wanted to stick
and this is global. So you know, people who and
I'm sober too, but people who are sober keep very
(13:44):
I'm very conscious they're sobriety and very protective of it
in the right way. But actually there's a lot more
in common with people who are moderating than we think,
and together we actually become quite a significant market that's
worth addressing and then we get delicious drinks.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah exactly, I love it so much. So in the book,
we I lay out like this sixth piece framework about
evaluating your own risk factors that are driving a risk
for whatever addiction. So in this case, let's talk about alcohol.
And so it says like, there are you know, three
buckets biological, psychological, environmental, and environmental includes cultural environmental and
(14:26):
physical environmental. And there are those things you're born into,
so inherited biological, psychological, environmental. And then are those things
that you acquire along your life, so acquired biological, psychological, environmental.
And in the acquired environmental section, I talk about starting
(14:46):
a cultural revolution. And this is really what Club Soda is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Absolutely, And it's only one part of the mix, because
you know, I have other views on everything from the
health economics of our sort of stuff. But I also
don't believe in banning alcohol. So you know, it's a
really interesting space to be in. But I I guess,
because I've got politics background, I'm quite in I mean,
(15:12):
really interested in systems change. And of course, in order
to change the way the world works, you are right,
we need to change the stories that we grow up
in because you know, my dad was a big drinker,
killed him when he was fifty seven. I inherited my
dad's drinking habits and his boobs, so you know, absolutely
they're definitely not my mum's, so you know, and you
(15:37):
know culture in our family, drinking was a big part
of it. You know, Dad will always go to the
pub and we actually lived in a pub and ran
a pub for a short while. So there's lots in
our family stories that is inherited over hundreds and hundreds
of years because alcohol is present in our homes and
we tell all sorts of stories about it and we've
normalized it so for so long. And it's really interesting
(15:59):
to see women my age and in the UK, women
of my age, so wine just turned fifty, are all
now going through menopause and so they're really lots of
reevaluating drinking. But we're the biggest drinking generation of women
ever in Britain. We're the Laddeck generation for a whole
load of cultural reasons. One was the shift in gender
(16:20):
dynamics in the workplace around the late eighties, where it
was no longer acceptable for the men to go to
work to the pub in the evening and women to
look after the kids on their own. Wine became affordable
and in the supermarket, and so couples would buy wine
to drink at home. And wine itself is a whole
different beast to other drinks in terms of how it
(16:40):
impacts you. And we thought quality was drinking as much
as the lads and I would, you know, drink the
lads under the table at university. So you know, all
of those things together have created this sort of time
bomb for women of my age. And you're seeing a
lot of women in my age dying from alcohol issues,
but also loads giving it up and going you know,
it's not serving my mental health, it's not helping me
(17:01):
through menopause. And I can eat as much kale as
I like by undo all the hard work if I'm
smashing back a bottle of wine in the evening. And
so you can just see from that example how many
things shifted in the late eighties early nineties for my demographics.
So just imagine how that's been over time that all
these things, and to undo all of that, we need
(17:22):
to have products in place. Talk to venues about the
fact that they lose money if they've not got good
alcohol free that socializing is actually changing. Young people have
driven a real shift in socializing in the way that
we socialize, particularly in Britain. You're a little less booze
heavy in some respects in the States. And so and
(17:43):
I've got this massive list of what I call barriers
to adoption that are everything from government legislation all the
way through to how we talk about drinking and how
we talk to venues and how we change away forms work.
Small things, but you know they can really make a difference.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
No, it's true all of that. And we I recently,
maybe it was four six months ago, saw an article
and the headline was something like the younger generation is
turning away from alcohol. And I was like, yes, because
it's this, like you said, changing the stories that we
tell ourselves, those psychological and social factors that we Inherit
(18:25):
also our biological factors, right, So, like I have addiction
on both sides of my family, alcoholism on both sides
of my family. And so I'm telling my kids, listen,
we're genetically loaded. And so the way you can drink
may not be the way someone else can drink, or
the way they can do a line of cocaine may
not be the way you can do a line of cocaine, right,
and just making it, like you said, making it okay
(18:49):
to be like, I don't drink without people being like,
are you a weirdo?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And it's funny because from the plus sides of social
media is it means that the only people you speak
to about these things aren't your family, they are other people.
And after setting up Club Soda, you know, we started
up set up Club Soda when Instagram mustle its infancy,
but we're two years in Instagram was going mental and
suddenly you had lots of young people talking very positively
(19:15):
about changing drinking, and they were talking about how alcohol
causes anxiety. And my age group were taught that alcohol
was there to deal with anxiety. Right, So that shift
on its own is really really fundamental. And people listening
not to their parents but to other people about that
and their mental health I think has a massive, massive
(19:38):
impact on that. There's so I mean, there's so many
things to say, but you're absolutely right. It's about changing
those narratives and changing the stories and listening to different people.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
One of the concepts in the book is called the
magic formula, and I always start out by saying what
I love about it most is that it's not magic.
It's really understanding you're inherited biological psychological environmental, you're acquired
biological psychological environmental like what was it like when you
were little? What is it like now? And knowing that
(20:11):
there are an infinite number of factors that create an
infinite number of pathways into difficulty with alcohol we'll talk
about in this episode. And so to your point, AA
wasn't for you. The treatment that was available wasn't for you,
and so you created another path to your own journey. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Now there's lots of paths because people can find you know,
there's never one size fits all, and I think it's
really important.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's right, And I think that's the magic part.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah. And I think dipping into lots of things, not
just one thing, is also really important because you'll increase
your self efficacy, your ability to help yourself the more
you learn, and every time you try and don't succeed,
you're not failing. You're learning new things, and so it's
really important that every time you pick up new things.
(21:05):
But you know, for me, there's some real damage in
the language that AA has, particularly here in the UK,
I mean in America, people are far more buoyant about
talking about being alcoholic, and it's a protective status in
the States. But alcoholics are a really weird word here.
It's an identity and it's not a medical condition here.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Oh well, we're not too far from there. In the Yeah,
too much created.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
But it creates a view that there's a line and
you're either one side of it and you're okay exactly
the other and you're not. And that's not true because
you don't Some people don't need to drink very much
for it to be impacting on their mental health. And
some people are drinking a shed load because their tolerance
is so high. And this is a wine thing really
(21:47):
in the UK that they're managing to function, but they
don't know what it's like to function. And that's where
I was without quite a lot of alcohol. And so
you know, you've managed to do amazing things in your life,
and therefore it seems like you've got your ship together,
but actually it's amazing. I just tell you, like, I
was a pain in the ass when I was drinking,
(22:07):
but I'm even bigger pain in the ass now right,
much more.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
And you were not fulfilling your full potential.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I was not feeling my potential to be really annoying
to lot people. So you know it's there for you guys.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It's so true. So one of the things I hope
that we do as part of this podcast is help people.
I don't know, do you hear my cats running around
like Baniac?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Well, how about Zinger? Do you hear my cats running
around like?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Maybe my cats hear your cats? Because there is.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Cats anything their feed away. They scratch on the scratchboard,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Having we're having a cat off live on the podcast.
But about that magic formula, and I want to touch
on two things that you said when you said earlier
and when you just said there are a lot of
different things, and so Club Soda is right now focusing
on one behavioral modification tool in the box, which is
(23:11):
replacing some of your full alcohol drinks with low or
no alcohol drinks. And so I want to ask you
what are other tools that are in your formula right now?
And maybe how has your formula changed over time so
that people listening can be like, oh, I'll try that,
Oh I'll try that. And before you jump in, what
you said that I loved that I want to magnify
(23:34):
each time you try to make a change, you're not failing.
You're learning something, learning a new tool, saying that work
that didn't work. And a while back, I saw this
behavioral change graphic and it had a spiral, but it
was spiraling up. And so it was like, each time
(23:56):
you make an effort, you're not spiraling down the toilet ball,
you're spiraling up towards you. And so maybe you can
talk to us about what your spiral has been like.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, I mean if I was to talk about tools.
So we we have some online courses and we actually
published a book. It was just before lockdown, so it
all got a bit lost in the miss of time.
It's even American version of the book.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Which is tell us the name of the book.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Which is called How to be a Mindful Drinker. And
I think I'm not a trained coach. I don't want
to be a coach. It was far too much listening.
I have skills. But what I've done is we've stayed
in our lane, and so we've built some stuff with
the help of scientists. We've got some funding from the
Welcome Trust and some people who are coaches to build
(24:41):
behavior change courses that are very specific, and a lot
of that is about getting people to not focus on
on really what they're whether they're stopping or moderating at
the very beginning, but instead to look at what they
want their few to be and where they think alcohol
(25:02):
can help them do that. So it's really interesting because
you talk about all those learned and environment intrinsic and actsic,
external fact and all those factors, and of course we
all have a future that we look for, because otherwise
we wouldn't buy so many self help books. Honestly, I
thought the more self help books I'd buy, the more
perfect iou become. But I've realized that doesn't work because
(25:22):
you've actually got to do the work in the books.
Who are you? So focusing on who it is that
you want to be and where alcohol fits into that
will help keep you motivated because otherwise, when you're changing
your drinking, you're always considering the loss and gain, and
so I think that's really important. And actually discovering new
(25:43):
drinks is now a new gain that didn't exist when
I was giving up. Although when I gave up, honestly,
I bought all sorts of weird drinks from America and
got them shipped over and I had a soda stream.
I had this whole you know, like, let's find something
interesting to drink type thing. And then I discovered tea,
which for a brit you may think so weird, but
I never drank tea. And then I discovered really expensive
(26:03):
loose sleeve tea. So now I like, you know, spend
three pounds a gram on on tea. Anyway, that's a
whole other way. Again, that's a whole other podcast singer.
But you do need to keep yourself occupied, right, and
you need to occupy yourself with things that are a
joy in their own right. You may never follow them through.
I did some sewing. I did some terrible sewing. When
(26:25):
I first gave up drinking. I sat with a really
cheap sewing machine and produced a load of rubbish. But
it kept.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Did you come up with the idea like, okay, I'm
going to.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Sell well, I felt like it's well, you know, all
those things that you feel you should do, and should
is a terrible word. Anyway, I gave I gave them
a go, and they weren't for me. But for a
short while they occupied my hands, and they occupied my
evenings and they were an interesting puzzle. And I do
believe that when you were at a crossroads that you
should follow every path. And some paths will take you
(26:57):
on a long and exciting journey, and some of them
would just be a for short little meander and they
will keep you occupied for a time. And when you
give up drinking, you do release a lot of time.
So you need to focus on a future and not
focus on the things that you're not doing, and try
out some things you may never have tried before and
see if they work for you and they may not,
(27:18):
and discover new things, because I do think giving up
drinking is a bit like one hundred liitle epiphanies. You
learn lots about yourself, You learn lots about your emotions,
and you learn lots about your capabilities. And for me,
I learned to trust my gut. And also it really
brought me back to my values and I'm really values
led and I you know, I really felt reconnected me
with my value. So you'll learn lots of things, but
(27:40):
they should all be seen as positive things that you
now have time to explore that you might not have
had when really you're thinking about where your next drink
is or you're hungover because you've drunk too much and
your time just contracts. And so that focus on positive
the future, trying things you never tried before, pushing yourself
your comfort zone is really really interesting and I think
(28:03):
they are interesting tools to explore. And one of our
podcast series is called The Next Round, where we talk
to people about the things that they've done since they've
given up drinking. And some people have done stand up comedy,
and some people have swum long distances, and some people
have just you know, done some simple things like taking
up crochet. But they're all very personal and they're all
(28:25):
really positive and lovely, and so I do want to
encourage people to make a list of those things that
they thought they would try and never have and find
where that add education courses or that community or meetup
is that you can join in, but also focus on
that bigger long term goal on who you want to
be when you grow up. I mean, I have to
say I'm still working on that one.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
But I mean a good life I think is like
actually never getting to the grown up part, right, It's
just like keep working on it forever.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Thanks Zinger, that makes me feel a lot better.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Come here, for you.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Really, I'm just like, I went to somebody's house the
day and it was all perfect and they had nice
art on the walls, and you know, and I just thought,
somewhere I've got a little bit wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
So I love this so much because you like, you
say these phrases and they jump on me and then
I love them. You're like, there are a lot of
different paths, and some of them lead to amazing, exceptional things,
and some of them lead to something mediocre. But take
a lot of different paths, and I think that's really
(29:32):
part of you know, if we go all the way
back in the history of where we I'll say quote
went wrong. And my position on AA is that it
came out of nowhere when there was nothing. So I'm
grateful for that. But I think the mistake in it,
which is a human mistake, is like and this is
the only way. And really what you're talking about is
(29:56):
all of those paths and the courage to take a
risk by walking down that path, not knowing if it's
the path for right now or if it's the path.
I also think not putting the pressure on it being
the path forever's.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Absolutely and I often feel really touched by members of
Club Soda who talk to me about the fact that
they're really worried about friendships when they give us drinking
or what they do with their time. And that also
is partly social, which is that we've learned to spend
so much time around alcohol that understanding what's around and
(30:33):
not noticing that loads of other people are not drinking
and they're getting on with really fun stuff is really
interesting because so much of what you've done has been
you know, I speak to people whose Christmases are all
about here, we decorate the tree and we do that
with brandy, and then we do this around Christmas, and
it involves this alcohol. And each each tradition around Christmas
(30:53):
is around the alcohol and not around Hey, let's drive
there for two hours and go ice skating and then
drive back because you can because you can drive. And
all of those traditions are about doing things, and of
course there are lots of people out there doing that stuff,
but when you're drinking, you never notice them, and so
it does feel like a really frightening thing. But there
are walking clubs, there are cinema clubs. There are actually
(31:16):
more than ever there are social occasions that are not
focused around alcohol, and in the UK that's changing really fast.
It's not a good night out just to stand there
with a drink anymore. Nobody will stand for that anymore.
If you'd said to me when I moved to London
in nineteen ninety six that you'll be able to buy
dessert in Soho at one in the morning, I would
have thought that was really funny. But you know, our
dessert culture is growing alongside our changing drinking culture because
(31:41):
cake is now considered to be the treat, not booze.
Cake doesn't give you a hangover unless you know you,
you know, probably a ton of it, maybe with some
alcohol that in it. Maybe that dessert might do you in.
But you know, it's we're reframing what treat and reward
is and you know, some things a lot healthier, and
(32:01):
definitely cake is healthier than smashing out a load of
beer in the evening.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Definitely, even though my doctor recently diagnosed me with high cholesterol,
which I'm dismayed, but whatever. So I made some boy
behavioral changes and the number one behavioral change I had
to make was decreased sugar. And I was like, this
is the meanest thing anyone has ever said.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
To me, well singer, But then surely it's about picking
and choosing your sugar, right.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
It is correct?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Should I tell you? Should I tell you my fun fact?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yes, give it to me, would you ready?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Once you take alcohol out of beer, it's one of
the healthiest things that you can drink. It's not to
process food, it's for ingredients. There is no sugar in
it most of the beers, and that's one that some
might have some malts syrup put into, but don't go
near those. You know, most of the alcohol free beers
in the UK have got under zero point five grams
(32:57):
per hundred mils of natural sugars in, so that's nothing thing.
And it's also rehydrating and full of vitamins that you
now absorb because you didn't absorb them when it had
alcohol in. So next to water, it's probably one of
the healthiest things that you can drink, right, So smash out,
get rid of all those sodas, learn love beer, which
I have done. Oh, and then you can save your
sugar for the I know I can.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Save my sugar for the cake. Because if you saw
the way my eyes lit up when you were like
the dessert scene is growing, I was like no to
self trip to London, yeah, which I've never been to London.
But if I come, can we go out for cake?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Oh? Absolutely, we can do it. Rocotta hot cakes. Actually
they're quite healthy. I think maybe not with the maple
syrup on, but it's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I just moderate. I just moderate all the way into
that trip. And then you know, like bank my my
alignment and.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
You can drink with an alcohol free beer so that
it councels it out.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I reckon our trip is planned. It is we are
getting close, which happens when you're having a good time.
And so I always say near the end. Literally, this
is what I always say, Laura. Sometimes at the beginning
I remember to tell people I'm going to ask this question,
but I'm always saying it at the end because I
(34:11):
basically never remember at the beginning to tell people that
I'm going to ask this question. So I want to
talk a little bit more, but right before we get out,
I'm going to ask you this question on addiction is
the word that we made up. If there's one thing
you want people to unlearn, or if there's one stigma
you want people to undo, or if there's one conversation
you want people to uncover what would it be. But
(34:35):
I'm just telling you I'm gonna ask that. I'm not
asking it. I'm not asking it right now. I'm gonna
ask it in like five minutes.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Oh but you need to ask me any questions you've
got about alcohol fee, drink singer, You've got me.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Hands tell us everything. So one, how does a drink
get alcohol free? Is there a difference between Like so
when I just went to a restaurant that the day
and there was like alcohol drink free menu and it
was like soda and sweet tea and lemonade, and I
was like, that's not what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
No, there's a solt drink.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, tell us what we're actually talking about, beer, wine, cocktails.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So we're talking about drinks that are designed for social
occasion rather than rehydrating, so they don't fit in the
soft drink occasion. And largely at the moment, they are
drinks that are designed to replicate an alcoholic drink, but
not soul. And there's a lot of things happening in
this space, but they're definitely designed around an occasion, so
they're not designed for you to drink at home on
(35:34):
your own during the day while you're working. They're designed
for you to drink when you're out and about in
a pub or bar or restaurant, or when you're socializing.
So that's the best way to do it. Because actually
there's some beautiful drinks that are low and sugar. They've
got apple cider vinegar at their base, right, which are shrubs,
which actually America used to drink a lot of during
the Prohibition era because shrubs use vinegar to extract flavor
(35:54):
and therefore there's a lot of acidity and bite in them.
But they're not a replica of an alcoholic drink, and
they can be a soda, but put into a really
nice spirit bottle, topped up with tonic, put with a
nice garnish, put inside a cocktail, they suddenly become a
drink that suit an occasion, and that occasion is one
where we've traditionally learnt to drink in. So that's how
i'd characterize them. So in that are kombuchers that maybe
(36:18):
are in a champagne bottle as opposed to the kombucci
you might be buying the health food store that's in
a can right screwtop, for example. Although I would always
certainly there's some really nice craft kombuchas that would sit
nicely alongside craft beers, for example. So there is obviously
a little wavy line, but they're definitely drinks that are
designed for adults as well, and so you would expect
(36:40):
to see them in the beer wine in spirits Aisle,
and therefore you should expect also to be age id'd
for them, because that's where.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
That I was age id'd, and I was surprised. One.
I was surprised because you see all there's gray hair,
I know, But two that's like it's alcohol.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
But I think we need to suck that up right,
because ultimately these drinks were to be in the beer
wine and spirit sile because they're aimed at adults for
an evening occasion, and till systems aren't that sophisticated, so
we just have to roll with it. The other thing
is is nobody in this space wants to be accused
of trying to encourage young people to drink by drinking
(37:16):
alcohol free Now, as much as I tell policy makers,
that's not the way alcohol works, because you learn to
like alcohol because of its effect, and so if people
drink lots of alcohol free beer, I'll be very surprised
if it encourage them to want to drink an alcoholic beer.
But definitely brands that have got an alcoholic brand like
Heineken or Guinness or any of those people are being
(37:37):
very careful to not be seen to be aiming at children.
So for both those reasons, we just need to suck
up being aged id'd and that's fine, Okay, I'll suck
it up. So there you are. So that's the difference
between an adult alcohol free drink and sort of a
soft drink. But obviously there are lots of flower sugar
and craft soft drinks that will also you know, mainly
(37:58):
attract grown up up rather than kids, mainly because they've
got less sugar and I suspect, but you know, so
they will also fit in there a little bit in
like kombouchas and sparkling teas and all of that sort
of stuff, which are also can be really beautiful. So
that's the difference between those. And then you ask about
how drinks become alcohol free loads of different methods. Some
things like you know, shrubs are you know, lots of
(38:21):
ingredients are steeped in vinegar. Some things are blended, some
things are blended with distilled botanicals just like a gin
would be. But obviously you need twice as much ingredient
because alcohol isn't present to be a flavor enhancer. Then
you've got things you've got naturally made beers that use
a arrested fermentation method. So Athletic I suspect to use
(38:43):
arrested fermentation method, which means that they can they use
a different yeast that ferments slower so they can stop
it at the right point so it doesn't forment anymore.
And then the brands that can get things down to
zero zero are because they dealkalize, so they put the
product an alcoholic product through dealkalization through spinning cone technology
(39:04):
to remove the alcohol. A lot of wines are also
done that way. But it's important to know that nothing
you put in your mouth is alcohol free. Even water
is not point not one.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
So even water is not point not one.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, there'll be things in water what is not one
hundred percent pure that have some natural flementation. You make
alcohol in your stomach, that's how we process it at all.
So so you know, to get down to zero zero.
You know, some of those alcohol free beers are less
alcohol in than cola, so you know, because even you know,
(39:38):
and a ginger beer can be quite you know, can
probably have zero point five percent alcohol depending on how
it's made. So you know, it's it's just that soft
drinks don't have to say any of that stuff, whereas
alcohol free adult drinks do. So it is a complicated space,
but it's really exciting because there's lots of innovation happening
and also lots of people using you know, functioning greendients
(40:00):
like Ashwa Gander and Lion's made and you know, natural
sources of caffeine and all of that sort of stuff,
which means that it helps deal with that loss of
verse and you feel when you're giving up drinking or
not drinking tonight, because it's something that does you some
good and you feel like it's giving you a little
bit of a lift and you're feeling you're getting a treat,
(40:21):
and that's you know, alcohol fits into our reward structure,
So why shouldn't our alcohol free drinks do as well?
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, I love because it's so just natural for you
Even you said just now you know, whether you're giving
up drinking or just not drinking tonight, which is like
that was just beautiful how it just rolled out. You're
not even thinking about it. I think like the closer
we can get to not making people give a blood
oath to never drink ever again, right, Like, it's okay
(40:51):
to just not be drinking tonight.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah. And if I had known that it was okay
not to drink tonight all those years ago, and that
there was a normal, things would be different for me.
So it's not my job to judge other people. It's
up to people to make their own decisions. Yeah. And
you know, if people are just drinking less alcohol overall,
then that's got to be a good thing, right, mm hmmmm.
(41:16):
And then if, like me, you realize that that trying
to moderate doesn't really work, then then giving up is
also an option. The sky doesn't fall in.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's right, The sky actually, can I say, can get brighter.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
It does apart from in the UK the minute where
it's raining in a bit. We won't talk about the weather.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
We won't talk about we won't to talk about the
UK Soweather. This has been amazing. So I'm going to
come around to the last question, which you were like,
I can answer this right now. I do not even
need a few minutes to think about this parting words
and they don't have to be in the structure. You
can give us whatever parting words you want to give
for our listeners. But would love to hear one thing
(41:57):
you want us to unlearn, undo or come you want
us to uncover.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I want people to know that drinking isn't compulsory. It
may we're in a society it makes it feel like
it's compulsory, but it's not. And we're often taught that
if it's something we're not enjoying, that we should drink more.
And so I also want to give people permission to
go home, because staying at things is not compulsory either.
And I think we all need to treat ourselves with
(42:23):
consent and care and realize that we can do things
even if society says that we should stay at things
or we should drink at things, it doesn't have to
be the case. And when you know it's not compulsory,
you can make a lot more positive and empowering decisions
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, you don't have to do it. Then, were that
was amazing?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Shall I tell you people where they can find us? Singer?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I was just about I looked at I know and
I was like, okay, and now I'm going to say,
where can people find you? Laura? Please tell our listeners
where they can find you, where they can get their
hands on all of the amazing stuff you're putting out
in the world for us.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, it's great, isn't it. I do a podcast as well.
It's the question I always forget to ask, which as
well was there? Because I say that there are two
things that I thought would improve with changing my drinking,
my memory and sleeping with inappropriate people, and neither of
those got better. So it's really upsetting when you find
out it's you all along and it wasn't the alcohol.
(43:19):
I have to say. So people can find us at
Join Club Soda on all social channels. We're even on
TikTok now, which has been fun. We are also on
joinclubsoda dot com and you can sign up to our
newsletter and we've got a big international following. I talk
a lot with all of the alcohol free shops and
bars across the world, and so we try and direct
(43:41):
people to those, even if we can't serve them in
the UK. But I cannot tell you how many Americans
we get in the shop. It's just a huge number
because we're in Covent Gardens, So if you're ever in London,
do come and find us in Covent Garden. We're in
Drury Lane. We have loads of events on at the
shop all the time, a lot everything from wine and
cheese events to all of them. So stuff site awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
I'm planning my trip. I'm so serious.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yeah yeah, come yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Thank you so much for coming on, Thank you so
much for tuning in. And if you like this episode,
please check out my book on Addiction, Six mind Changing
Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at Barnes Andnoble,
Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon and wherever books
(44:27):
are sold. If you like to this episode, please share
it with someone you think may need to hear it. Also,
please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star
review that helps us reach any and everyone who may
be looking for support in the face of addiction.
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