October 15, 2024 • 50 mins
Laura Cathcart Robbins joins us for Season 4 of Un-Addiction. Author of "Stash: My Life In Hiding," Laura discussed how she discovered that her life in the spotlight and Hollywood lifestyle, which was curated to help her avoid suffering, failed to do so, and the discovery process she underwent to find a life that aligns with her values...and lived to write about it.
In this episode:
- Laura's intentions with Stash
- Laura's journey as a hyper-independent youth to running the only Black entertainment PR firm in LA
- From living a life of yachts and private planes to needing medical assistance with addiction
- What to do if recovery doesn't feel like it's for you
- Finding tools to help reset Laura's nervous system and build new neuropathways - Laura's Magic Formula and daily routine
- What Laura wants to un-learn about addiction
Connect with Laura, find her book, listen to her podcast, and take a class: https://lauracathcartrobbins.com/ @lauracathcartrobbins
___
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📖Dr. Nzinga Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is out now! Order here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/ 📱
Find Nzinga on Threads and X (Twitter): @nzingamd / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzingaharrisonmd/
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If you'd like to watch our interviews, you can catch us on YouTube @unaddictionpod.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zena Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped by their identities.
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
(00:22):
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too. Okay, Laura,
thank you so much. One if y'all knew the technical
difficulties that I just went through to get on here,
and Laura's just being super gracious, so I appreciate you.
Welcome to the Unaddictioned Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I was telling you before we started recording that I
don't take what I consider heavy reading on vacation, and
I you know, I experience people's memoirs about their experiences
with addictions heavily because I just like let myself fully
connect to the emotion, which I definitely did, Like I
(01:10):
was crying with you and laughing with you through this book.
But for some reason, I took this book with me
on my vacation to Mexico with my husband, and I
was just really glad that I did. It is such
a beautifully honest and open memoir which you tell us
(01:33):
about is like a new experience than the way you
had learned you had to protect yourself growing up. So
I just wanted to say thank you for writing this
book I have to read. And I know this podcast
is not supposed to be like here we go, this
is a Stash promo, but y'all go get this book.
(01:56):
I'm just gonna I literally sent Laura when I first
started reading and Instagram message and it opened up and
it said, I'm just gonna read a bit from the
author's note, which is the very very beginning, so I'm
not spoiling anything for you. It says in two thousand
and eight, I ended a marriage, got sober, and fell
(02:19):
in love, all within a ten month period. An avid reader,
I scoured bookstores for memoirs during that time, desperate for
stories like mine written by women who looks like me.
I found none. I wrote Stash to make sure that
the next person going through any of that or all
of that, finds themselves in the pages of a book.
(02:43):
I wrote Stash for my sisters, brothers, and others. Of
all backgrounds and colors who are scared to be themselves.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
From the moment I opened it up, I was like,
this is why the universe told me to bring this
book on this vay. So Laura with that super long introduction,
which is like not even what I ever do? Will
you just tell the listeners who is Laura Cathcart Robbins.
I will.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But first of all, I just really want to thank
you for finding me and bringing me on the show.
And then also that read was beautiful. It's exactly how
I would want it to be read if someone someone
else read it, and you did it so beautifully because
the parts and I wrote that off I didn't I
(03:36):
realized I didn't have one as we were going to print,
I didn't have an author's note, and I just forgot
about an author's note. So I had a pretty quick deadline.
I think I had a day to get that in.
Oh wow, And it just it was one of those
things that just flowed out because it was so obvious
(03:57):
to me as to why I wrote the book, and
it was those things that you read. It was it
was just like, there isn't one and it's a huge
dearth in this it's a void, you know, and why
not and why aren't there more So I really appreciate
you King and on that and and like I said,
(04:17):
and just you know, welcoming me the way that you
have being so enthusiastic about about this conversation we're about
to have in advance. So I appreciate all of that.
So I am, I'm a mom. I'm an author, I'm
a writer. I am I'm an activist, and I kind
(04:43):
of I don't even know if I want to identify
that way, but I write provocative pieces about race and
recovery and divorce and relationships. And I sit on the
board of an independent school here in Los Angeles where
I live. My kids are grown. They haven't been there
for a long time, but I created their diversity, Equity, Inclusion,
(05:07):
and Justice committee and I still preside on that committee
because it's really important to me to make sure that
no one drops the ball just because I'm gone. I
want to be sure that the kids that are coming in,
the kids that are already on campus are seen through
a lens of equity. And it's a really you know,
(05:28):
it's not happening, but the effort needs to be there.
So in those two ways. I would say that I
have some activism in my life, and I also advocate
for people in recovery or trying to get into recovery.
I think there's the reason I tell my story is
(05:50):
because I had everything that I think people. Well, I'll
just say that this way. I had everything that I
thought I would want, and I thought those things would
keep me safe from struggle. All you know, the wildest dreams,
the mansions, the nannies, the private planes, the you know,
(06:12):
the yacht vacations, like all those things were part of
my day to day, and yet I was and not
only was I dying, but I was killing myself on
a regular basis. And I had everything to lose, most
importantly my children, which is who the book is dedicated to.
And another reason why I wrote the book because you know,
(06:35):
there's so much stigma around moms and addiction and I
wanted to, you know, not dispel, but kind of explain
how that can happen to someone who loves their children
as much as I do. So, yeah, that is me.
I have a relationship with a man that I write
about in the book, and he and I have been
(06:55):
together for just about sixteen years, which is just about
how long I've been sober, and yeah, I live. I
live comparatively drama free life, but you know, I live.
The life that I had that I thought was beyond
my wildest dreams, was actually not the life that I
(07:19):
am most aligned with. And so what I'm living now
is the life to which I am most aligned and
it feels really good.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And can you tell us, because I think that's a
common experience that we have, and I'll take just a
step back to set kind of like my goal of
the Unaddictioned podcast. So I also recently wrote a book
and it's called Unaddiction Six mind changing conversations that could
save a life. And we wrote made up the word
(07:49):
an addiction, and it's un learn what you think you know, right,
which is part of what you just said. Undo stigma
that is killing people, specially around mothers with addiction. Uncover
the conversations that could save lives. Right. It's kind of
(08:10):
like this unaddictioned word that we made up. And so
what I hope to do with the podcast is for
people the same way you wrote this book, Like I
wrote this book for anybody who has not seen themselves
in a book.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I want people.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Listening to this podcast to hear themselves in the experiences
of all of the people who are coming on and
sharing with us the gift of the experiences they've had
and what they've learned. And so when you think about
the life of your wildest dreams, you drip that up.
(08:46):
Yeah right, yes, so like the life of your wildest
dreams turned out not to be the life that is
most the line and you didn't say this, but tell
me if these words are correct, kind of with your
sense of identity and health and wealth and well being
and calm and purpose and meaning, what was the space
(09:11):
between the two? How did you come to be aware
of the space between the life you thought was the
life of your dreams and the life that is actually
more aligned with who you conceive yourself to be. And
then what was kind of the journey to close that space?
(09:32):
I love the intent of your podcast. I think that's
dope like that.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
We need this podcast, We need that place to talk
about these types of stories. And thank you for that question.
I you know, the journey for me was quite painful.
I am a really prideful, self sufficient I have been
(10:00):
ever since I was a little kid, and for me,
it's very shameful if I can't do something on my own,
And it also brings an unwanted spotlight to me, because
the way I survived my childhood was to be out
of the spotlight, to blend in, and so when I
ask for help, it brings what feels like an unwanted spotlight.
(10:24):
And I avoided that at all costs. And it's one
of the things that kept me in my addiction in
my marriage, in the behavior that supported those two things longer. Well,
there's no good time to be in an addiction, no
good length of time. But in my marriage, I was
(10:45):
in the marriage longer than was good for me. And
you know the reason for that was because I didn't
want to admit that this was too much for me.
I just thought, you know, I can. I just need
some more time to figure this out. There is a
way for me. And you know, at that point, I
(11:07):
was really just looking for a way to exist. I
wasn't looking to live or to thrive, or to find
joy or happiness. I was really just looking for a
way to exist where I didn't feel desperate all the
time or was asleep all the time because I was
doped up. And those were kind of my two speeds,
I was knocked out or desperate, and I guess there
(11:31):
was a third speed, pretending that I wasn't desperate while
I was desperate. And so, you know, the relief came
when I could take that costume off of pretending to
have it all together, put my kids to bed, knock
myself out like that was my only relief. And so
(11:52):
when it became untenable and I decided that I was
going to have to ask for help and do something. Note,
I was really progressed. I was really medically sick, so
I had to be medically detext. I could not at
the point that I was at. You know, certainly years before,
I could have stopped on my own, but where I
(12:14):
had gone to, I couldn't stop without medical intervention. So
I had to seek out help. Medical help is really
what I was looking for in the beginning, because I
didn't want any other kind of any other kind of help.
I was a therapy shunner, definitely not a joiner. I
(12:36):
still haven't. I mean, I've read self help books, but
only because I'm doing research on a guest. I've never
picked up a book to see, oh, this might be
a good way for me to achieve blah blah blah,
And so I was not a seeker at that point.
I was not a seeker of ways to evolve, you know.
(12:59):
Any thing that I sought out was a way to
stay high basically and get away with it, you know.
And then the through line firstash my life in hiding
is and to keep my kids. Like I wanted to
keep my kids in my life. That was my main goal,
but those other goals were right up there with it,
(13:19):
and I didn't want to admit that then. So the
journey to answer your question when I finally put the
substances down was, like I said, quite painful for me,
because I found myself in a position where the expectation
was that I was going to now continually seek help
(13:40):
not only to keep substances out of my life, but
to grow and evolve in a way where I wouldn't
need them, And I didn't want to do any of that.
I didn't want to. I didn't want to put them down, Perry.
I actually thought once I got them out of my system,
I would be able to figure out a way to
continue to use them in a way that you know,
(14:01):
normal people do. You know, occasionally I can take this
when I needed or occasionally I have a social drink,
and you know it.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Always.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
You know, I'm somebody who barely made it past the
ninth grade, who didn't go to college. I have always
found a way around what other people have had to
go through the you know, these particular paces in order
to achieve a goal. You know, I started my own
company and I ran it and it was the most
successful black entertainment pr firm in well it was the
(14:35):
only one in Los Angeles for a while, but it
was very successful. And I did that without having to
get a degree or finish high school. And not that
that was easy, but I always found a way around
to get what I want. And I thought I would
find a way around this, and when it became clear
(14:56):
to me that there wasn't a way around it for me,
you know, joining these sober support groups and learning a
new way of living and being honest for the first
time since maybe I was five years old about everything,
because I had been editing myself for so long, I
(15:18):
was never completely honest. Even if I told you the truth,
it was only part of the truth. You know, I
would hide the rest of the truth because it might
alter the way you saw me and again put a
spotlight on me, which I did not want and I
still don't want. I still you know, I'm not seeking
out a spotlight. Stash was not a book I wanted
(15:41):
to write. It was absolutely the last book I wanted
to write, and it has thrust me into a spotlight
where this is what I'm talking about, but it's not.
It wouldn't be what I wanted. It was what I needed.
It is what I needed. And so the journey looked
like me, you know, sitting with my arms folded and
sunglasses on and lips pursed in backs of sober support rooms,
(16:05):
judging everybody leaving as soon as you know, leaving before
the meeting ended, and arriving after it started, you know,
coming to terms with there were people there who I
had similarities with and seeking them out. But you know,
(16:26):
just very much like the cat that you leave the
bowl of milk on the back porch for if somebody
made any big movements or approached me or I was
gone on the run. But if they just left the
milk out, they worth it, right, It's not worth it.
So I did that dance, you know, for for more
(16:47):
than a year, probably almost a couple of years being
one foot in and one foot out, and uh, you know,
my kids are getting older. My kids are little when
I got sober and they were starting to get older,
and I realize, you know, every minute, hour, you know,
day that went by, I realized more of who I
(17:11):
had been when I was using substances, and more that
I didn't like what I had to do in order
to live that life. And then really started to explore
who I was and what I did like because I
had put all that aside, I didn't know. So my
journey has been sixteen years of kind of figuring out
(17:34):
who I am and what brings me joy. And like
you said, I think you said the word serenity when
you were talking that serenity is something that I'm chasing
now as opposed to running from, because I did. I
ran from the calm. You know.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That serenity is something I'm chasing now as opposed to
running from. I think is a really powerful statement that
people will be able to relate to, because, like you said,
you had three speeds.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, desperate, desperate, desperate, yes or high Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Like the image that I conjured up in my brain
when you said that is like being in a white room,
just screaming into a void. It has like mirrors on
all sides, and you get just like that infinite they're
infinite use in there and you're screaming but it is
just like into a void and nobody hears me, nobody
(18:35):
sees me, and there is no serenity there. But even still,
that's what I know how to do, right, So you
take me out of that room and put me in
a completely serene room, and that's just as stressful because
I don't know how to do this. Yes, I'm running
from this also.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yes, yeah, I mean it's it's a total change. I
think in like the neuropathways, it's like my whole nervous
system needed to be reset. And that's not a one
time reset. It is over and over and over again.
(19:16):
And like I said, it was you know, it wasn't
all painful, but it wasn't pleasant and it was mostly uncomfortable.
The change where I am now it is mostly pleasant
and mostly comfortable, and I find joy every day, you know,
(19:36):
I find and I have, you know, a bunch of
tools for lack of a better word, that I used
to achieve that place where I can access it. But
then it was you know, I kept thinking, oh, you're
never going to do this, You're going to bail because
mostly when things are unpleasant or uncomfortable, it's a hard
(19:58):
no for me, like.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Just for you, I mean fight or flight or flee, yes, yes,
that's that's animal period.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Right right right, yeah, or freeze, which was me or freeze,
Yeah I was, I was freeze. I would just stay,
like I said, try to blend in like the gazelle
right when the lion spots it, like, just don't.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Move right, I'm invisible, invisible, you do not see me.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, yeah, that and that's it. So you know, that's
that's what it was like. And I do. I talk
about it a lot because I know that there are
a lot of people who put down substances and and
and not just you know substances like outside substances, but
there are a lot of people who put down shopping
(20:50):
and gambling and debting and you know, other ways to
activate the same system in one's body in mind. And
there are a lot of people who come in and think,
you know, they're relieved when they come into the rooms
of recovery or whatever that looks like for them, they're relieved.
(21:13):
I was not I was not relieved.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
It felt like.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Everything was abrasive. So I tell this story so that
if that's not your experience, if you don't come in
and feel safe and find yourself relieved, that perhaps there's
still room for you there, even though it might take
a little bit longer or it appears.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I love that. I love that so much because I
think I'm gonna like stick this in the bucket of
things I want people to unlearn. And you touched on
one before that I'm going to try to pull out explicitly.
And then you said this one explicitly, which I want
to magnify. The one you touched on before is that
(21:58):
the concept of addiction is that the drug is the problem,
and as long as you stop using, everything falls into place.
When in reality, what we know and what we talk
about in this book an addiction, I talk about inherited factors,
so like stuff that you're born with or born into
(22:18):
that lay the foundation of risk for developing addiction to
a substance that somebody else can use socially right, and
then also the acquired so the life circumstances that we
experience over our lives once we get beyond childhood that
do the same thing, develop our risk factors for having
(22:40):
addiction to a substance that other people can use recreationally.
So like, the first thing to say explicitly is like,
stopping the drug is just and it may not even
be the first step. There may be other steps that
come before that for people, but it is just one
of the steps. Yes, it is not the cure.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It is not the cure.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
And then the second thing, I love that you you
just said it explicitly, and I just want to shine
a light on it, although you were like, ain't nobody
trying to get lights shone on them? Shine light on it,
which is there's this sense that if you go to
(23:24):
the rooms of recovery, and like, I love that you said,
whatever that means for you. So some people that'll be
twelve steps, some people that'll be smart groups, some people
that'll be a spiritual congregation, some people that'll be gardening,
some people that'll be start running marathons. Like it varies
what that is for you. But just because the first
time you go you don't get that sense of warm
(23:47):
and brace and love and this is what I've been
looking for my whole life, doesn't mean it's not for you.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, and I you know, I think that everything
in me balked at a different solution for what I
was treating. Everything that my mind, my mind was like,
oh no, no, no, this can't be the solution. We
got to go back to the drugs and booze like
that's a solution. Don't don't, don't engage in any of this.
(24:17):
And so I didn't even know what was happening. It
was like I was hijacked and my mind was telling
me get out, which is what I wanted to do.
But I was able to access what I what I
call my higher self, and able to access that at points,
(24:38):
and that allowed me to stay seated. Just to stay seated.
I didn't do anything else but stay seated. I didn't
really listen. I got sober before we had smartphones or
before they were abundant, so they had just come out
that year. So it was like I was going to
(25:01):
get on my phone, you know what I mean, and
lose myself. And that was there was nothing that I
could hold that would distract me. So for a book,
which I wasn't going to bring in read a book,
so I was surrounded by it without a distraction, but
I could only absorb so much even still yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
One of the concepts we talk about in an Addiction
is the magic formula. So, like I said, the first
part of the book, we talked through kind of like
the risk factors biological that you inherit. So like there
is a genetic component, actually a larger genetic component to
addiction than there is psychological and social component. There are
(25:47):
psychological components, there are environmental components, physical environment, cultural environment.
You're born into, some you acquire some along the way.
And so as you're seeking recovery, which is more than
just not using drugs, It is like that sense of
meaning and purpose and joy and calm, right and healing
(26:12):
in your life, everybody's inputs are different and so there
has to be a customized formula for you that addresses
those inputs. And I call that the magic formula. And
so you alluded earlier to that you have tools that
(26:34):
you use to bring this joy and meaning and sense
of purpose into your life each day. And that's another
thing that I want people to hear in this podcast
is like just a bajillion different tools and formulas that
people are using for you to say, oh, I never
thought about that. Maybe I'll try that that might be
(26:55):
something that I'll put in to my magic formula. And
so with that long set, you know, I'll just be
talking Lord to be like get to the question. Can
you can you tell us about your initial formula? Which
(27:15):
part of it was just sit in the room and
I know from the book, like you know document right,
So like can you just tell us from that initial
magic formula how that has evolved over time and what
are tools that you're using today?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I mean, I you're really funny. I like talking
to you. I definitely have things that I do every day,
and I have a podcast, but what I really am
is an author and a writer. So my days consists
(27:59):
mainly of writing. That's what I spend most of my
time doing, and I write about you know, obviously Stash
contains a lot of traumatic experiences and memories of mine.
So and I'm going to relate this to my recovery
because it kind of goes hand in hand for me.
(28:21):
I needed to be able to write Stash without re
traumatizing myself, and that was a so I had needed
for me. I needed to have enough distance from that
and have done enough work so that I could look
at these instances and not be pulled back into it.
But in order to write about them, I have to
(28:41):
kind of relive them. So it's a tricky line. So
part of what I do to take care of myself
in recovery is also part of what I do to
take care of myself as an author, which is, you know,
when I wake up, I have a reading contact in
so that I can read my other ices distance. But
(29:05):
when that's out when I'm sleeping, I can't read my
phone when I pick it up in the morning. So
part of what I do is I do not put
my glasses on until I've meditated.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So I love how practical this is.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yes, I can see maybe there are ten dms I
can see like an I can get it, you know,
a gist of it, but I don't read it until
after I've meditated. I use my phone to meditate. I
have an app, and so I look for like a
ten to twenty minute meditation, depending how much time I have,
(29:42):
and I get up. If my boyfriend's still sleeping next
to me, I'll get up and go meditate. He's a surfer.
Very often he's up at four thirty, so he's up
before me, and he's gone. But that's the first thing
I do is meditate, and the second thing I do
just take supplements and drink a liter of water. I
(30:05):
don't like drinking that much water, but it is good
for to start my day with. Like it's it's good
for me.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yes, my lateral water comes out of a random line.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, I'm ginger tea.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You reuseable? Yes, yes? Or maybe a cickle jar depends
on that.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, I mean it's it's just it sets me up
to have a better day than if I go in
not hydrated. These are things I've learned about myself along
the way. I do take supplements, you know, for thyroid,
for you know, hair growth, for like you know those
types of things.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Your hair girls, supplement is working okay, because you are
all hair full and glossy. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
But you know, I've I've ran out of my supplements
a couple of times. I've been traveling and not had them,
and I notice no difference in my energy level. So
I thought, oh I don't have them, everything's going to
be different, and I didn't feel anything different. But I
take them anyway because I know that they're good for me.
On Sundays, I food prep and I say this to
(31:16):
be because and I'll tell you why this is important
for me, Because I am a junk food junkie, like
I would subsist on Eminem's pepsi and French fries if
I were allowed to, and something with cheese probably cannot
forget the cheese. Cannot forget the cheese. But I'm just saying, right,
(31:37):
but I haven't eaten that way for a long time,
and so in order for me not to go to
what I feel like is comfort food, especially when I've
been writing, because I write pretty long hours. I try
to write for eleven to seven, and that's a long time.
I usually make it to around six o'clock. But it's
(31:57):
very like I want comfort food. I want a slice
of I want a bowl of mac and cheese.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And so you know that's actually like neurobi a lot. Yes, yes,
I've heard that. I've heard that.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
I don't know a lot about it, but I know
that those are things that my mind is asking for.
Yeah right, Yeah, So what I do is I chop
up fruits and vegetables On Sunday. I have a salad
that I love that requires a lot of chopped vegetables.
But if I had to tell me about this, okay,
(32:29):
I am also a junk food lover and a salad lover.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Excellent, So okay, tell me about this this salad.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So there there's actually two. I make one with baby spinach,
and it has cucumbers, snap peas, beets, raw beets not
cooked at almonds like almond slivers. It has scallions, It
has cherry tomatoes, it has what else does it have
(33:01):
in it? That might be it? Sometimes this is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Can I put some cheese on this salad?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
You could? You could? I actually, so I'm plant based.
Now I've been plant based for four years, so I've
put feta in it, but it's plant based feta feta crumbles.
And Scottie, he's the cook in the family. He makes
me different salad dressings that are also plant based, so
I have a variety of those to choose from. So
(33:28):
I just have them all in different containers, all the
things that I chop the cucumbers, the tomatoes, that everything's
in a different you know, just like a deli cup.
And I chop up the spinach with scissors, with kitchen
scissors so they're bite sized, and then I pour all
the other ingredients and mix it in with dressing, and
I eat it and it's fast, and it's fast. I
(33:50):
can do it at my desk if I want. I
try not to. That's that's not as good for me either.
In sitting as the new smoking. So I wear my
apple for the people in the bag.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
It is by the people in the back I mean,
doctor Rinzinga Harrison. I'm sitting in the back road.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
But it's you know, it's just not great for you
to sit for long periods of time. So though, that
is another thing that I do that is good for
for my cause when I do eat junk food, and
you can eat a lot of junk food when your
plant based, my brain is, first of all, it's focused
(34:29):
on that. Then it's like, ooh, there should be some
more potato chips right upstairs, let's go get those. But also,
I just have a different experience with my day. I'm
more tired, I'm I'm less patient. I feel more easily
irritated by things like my boyfriend's breathing.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Oh man, all he has to do is breathe.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Sometimes sometimes it's you know, he has a very strong
breath flow, and you know, most of the time when
I'm right, I don't even hear it. Yeah, but when
like my antennas, yes, there's nothing. So I food prep,
(35:19):
I meditate. I Also, the other thing I do after
I drink that leader of water is I work out
and I either write my peloton or I go to
the gym where I do strength training, and I do
that five days a week. I don't work out every day.
I give myself two days to have two days of rest,
but actually on Saturday I do a hike, so it's
(35:41):
not a complete day of rest. And you know, I
balance out, like I don't book myself for one social
more than one social thing a day. I actually try
not to book myself for more than one thing a day.
If I'm leaving the house, I'm leaving the house for
one thing and then I'm coming back home. I don't
stab my days. And I want to also just recognize
(36:03):
and acknowledge that there is privilege in that I am
able to do that, you know. So it's it's it's
what works for me, you know, at my age. I'm
turning sixty in August, and I feel like I've earned
(36:24):
a little bit of like do what you want, you know,
what you like, so do what you want?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, so's that's kind of what I've been exploring, just
to see what's good for me. Working Out is good
for me, food prep is good for me, Meditating is
good for me. I pretend I attend sober recovery support meetings.
I attend probably two or three a week. You definitely two,
(36:52):
sometimes a third. That's good for me. And I want
to also just quickly give you the caveat that after
in of these things that I'm listening, I never feel good.
I'm never glad I worked out. I'm never glad that
I ate the salad. I'm never glad that I meditated.
But and I shouldn't say I'm not glad that I did.
I don't feel good because of it. I don't right,
(37:14):
you don't get an immediate no now. But I am
so much better in total because of those things. And
I have that ability Like if if addiction is disease,
a state of dis ease, what my life looks like
now is ease. You know where I and I love
(37:35):
the ease. I want it. I want that ease. So
if these are the things that work, this is what
I'm doing, that's right. I love that perspective, because we are.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Conditioned to need the immediate reinforcement, and that's what drugs
do for us. And that's what junk food does for
us through the exact same pathway at through the dopamine pathway.
That's what gambling does with us. That's what sex does
for us. That's what shopping does for us. That's what
clearing out social media notifications does for us. Right, Like,
(38:09):
it gives us that dopamine ping and gives us that
immediate reinforcement. But I love this idea of the longitumine
of you, and I would say this is kind of
core to recovery is if addiction is disease, then recovery
is finding the life that brings you ease. And that
(38:31):
will be different for everyone. Right Like, you were like
I only do one social thing a day, and I
was like, oh, I love to only do one thing.
I literally like found myself like dreaming about it. Whereas
a colleague of mine the other day was like, if
I could, I would throw a party every day. I
was like, oh yeah, yeah, So like her life of
ease wouldn't be only one social activity right a day,
(38:54):
or one commitment a day. And so just honoring that
process of one coming to understand what ease means for you, yes,
and then not judging ourselves because I think we're also
very conditioned when we figure it out to say like,
but that's not right, right, right, Like I shouldn't be
(39:15):
I shouldn't be like that. Just being able to be
unapologetic for finding ease.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
That is it unapologetic?
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Right?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Okay, time flies too fast one when you have ten
minutes of technical difficulties too when the conversation is flowing
so easy. But we are rounding the bend. So the
last question I like to ask everyone, and sometimes I
remember to tell them in the beginning, and I did
not remember to tell you, so Yes, the name of
(39:52):
my book is an addiction unlearned what you think you know,
undo stigma, us killing people, Uncover conversations that could save
somebody's life. If you wanted to tell us one thing
or two or three whatever that you want us to unlearn,
or one thing that you want us to undo, or
one thing one conversation you want us to uncover you
(40:14):
really think could save somebody's life, what would you leave
us with? Wow?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I think, and I will say for myself this is
something I would like to unlearn is and this still
happens to me, you know. And the program that I'm in,
(40:40):
the recovery, the Sober Support Group, I guide ten or
eleven women I can't remember how many right now through
the same program, and I have someone who guides me
through it. I'm always working with people who are having
experiences that are challenging, work with people who drink again
(41:02):
and use again, or you know, break their their sex
and love sobriety, or or or with food addiction, to
break that sobriety in the various ways it can be broken.
And you know, my with them, I have this immediate
(41:28):
well spring of tolerance. Like I get it. I absolutely
get it. I understand. I do an internal diagnostic sweep
to see if there's any judgment there, and I don't
find any. However, when there are people outside of my
circle and you know, maybe they're raising their hand for
(41:54):
the sixteenth time as somebody who's starting a day count
again or whatever it might be, and you know, I do,
I find I find myself judging this is really the
main thing. I find myself judging other pathways to recovery
(42:16):
and dismissing them as shortcuts or just you know, like
subpar for whatever reason, because they're not as they don't
have the same components as the program that I'm in,
which are the only components that work. Right, this is
in my head, and so you know, and a lot
(42:39):
of other programs don't even do daycounts. They don't you know,
you don't have to confess if you have picked up
whatever whatever you put down again. You just keep pushing.
And that's a really beautiful way to go for a
lot of people, and it's the only way they could
go forward. Right. So, I think what I'd like to
(43:01):
unlearn about addiction is really what I want to unlearn
about recovery, which is that there is a path to it,
and any variations of that path are open for judgment,
and to really not just say the words, but shift
(43:23):
internally so that I'm not judging when someone else brings
these things up to me or something for them that worked,
I'm not like, yeah, not for long in my head,
Oh that worked for you. Just wait, I'll be saving
a seat for you. I would really not like to
unlearn that talk inside of me and skip to the
(43:47):
same thing that I skip to with the women I
was talking about which is absolute compassion and identification, regardless
of how anybody gets to where they're going, as long
as they're moving in that direction, even if they're not,
one is none of my business. And two, there are
(44:09):
a variety of ways, you know, in just as there
are many ways to be black, right, there are, so
we are not a monolith. It's and people who see
us that way are really missing out on the nuances
and the subtleties and the variety. And I think it
is the same for recovery. And I think that maybe
(44:30):
there's not as many recognize, you know, by legally right
by the courts, there's one way. If you're going to
be sentenced to anything, you're going to be sentenced to this.
But I would like to myself open up and see things,
like I said, not just with more compassion, because that
(44:51):
almost sounds like it borderlines pity, but just with more
curiosity and generosity. Anything that anyone does, I would like
to see it with more curiosity and generosity instead of
being snide and internally, you know, I really try not
to project this nightness, but instead of that snide you know,
(45:13):
little Aunt June voice in my head, she ain't gonna
make it. Just watch. I want that voice.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I love it so much, and I think I think
you may be the first guess to say what I
want to unlearn as opposed to this is what I
want people to unlearned, which I really value that. I
really value that, and I think we all get programmed
with Aunt Jude's little voice, and so I definitely want
(45:47):
all of us to unlearn that snide voice and learn
the voice of curiosity and generosity. I think that's really beautiful. Okay,
that is it, But I promise, like I for really
want to be your friend. Yes, the last time, I'm
(46:11):
in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Georgia, really decaying you're in Atlanta. Yes, the main the
water main broke yesterday.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
I didn't even know. No, I no, I hope I'm
on a different water mean, we just our water heater
just like weeks ago, and the water, the hot water
came out of the it looked like mud. I was like,
what is happening? But thank you, thank you, thank you,
thank you so much. Yeah for coming on the podcast,
(46:41):
Like I said, for writing this book, and I especially
want to emphasize what you said earlier, like this is
not just like just writing a book. You had to
protect yourself while you were writing this book, while you
were opening kind of to the deepest part of the
scariest thing that you have been through. And so I
(47:02):
think that's just really beautiful that you did that for us.
And then lastly, I read your book while I was
in Mexico and I emailed Jada and I was like,
I want season four to be dedicated to black people.
And it was because of what you wrote in your
author's note. Yes, so we are dedicating season four of
(47:25):
an addiction podcast to black people.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
So thank you, Yes, thank you, thank you. That is wonderful.
I will be listening.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
We're going to get.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Together in real life one day. So my podcast is
called the Only One in the Room. It was born
out of a viral article that I wrote for HuffPo
in twenty eighteen. I got into a three day, six
hundred person retreat led by Elizabeth Gilbert and Cheryl Strade,
and for three days, I was the only black person
(48:01):
I saw, and I was checking the kitchens and housekeeping.
I was like, there's got to be another black person
here somewhere. I'd never been in a space with that
many people where I was the only person in the room.
I'd been the only one in the room, but never
that many people, and so I wrote about it. The
article went viral, and I knew that black people would
(48:23):
respond to it, but I honestly thought that only black
people would respond to it. But what happened was I started,
I was flooded with responses from all kinds of people
all over the world. It went viral really quickly, and
they sent back stories, like one of them was a
white woman in her sixties who went in to take
(48:45):
a yoga class and she's overweight, and everybody turned to
look at her like she had two heads, and she left.
And so I was like to Scott, who's my boyfriend?
And now he's the executive producer, Like this could be
a podcast where we tell these only one stories. We're
you know, not just stories of black people who or
(49:08):
minorities who feel like, you know, I'm alone in the
dominant culture. But we could tell stories of anyone who
felt like there were room alone in a room full
of people. So so those are the stories we tell.
The podcast has a little over five million downloads. I
think we have eight hundred and something episodes in the can.
(49:28):
We're now in our twentieth season and we you know,
we just we just keep rocking. And it's kind of
a folding your laundry podcast. They're all stories, so it's
a storytelling podcast. It's not prescriptive, it's not it's not
how to. We don't generally any bring on anybody that's
(49:49):
an expert just because they're an expert. We need their story.
So if you are taking a hike, or folding the
laundry or cooking dinner, this is the podcast for you.
Thank you for letting me talk about.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
It a little bit. Wow. Thank you so much for
tuning in. And if you like this episode, please check
out my book on Addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that
Could Save a Life, available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop
dot Org, Union Scoring Company, Amazon, and wherever books are sold.
(50:22):
We want to hear from you. If you identify as
black or brown and have a recovery story to share,
something you've learned, a stigma that you've undone, or a
conversation that you've had about addiction. Send us a voicemail
at speakpipe dot com, slash you apod that's speak pipe
(50:43):
dot com, slash you a pod
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zena Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped by their identities.
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
(00:22):
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too. Okay, Laura,
thank you so much. One if y'all knew the technical
difficulties that I just went through to get on here,
and Laura's just being super gracious, so I appreciate you.
Welcome to the Unaddictioned Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I was telling you before we started recording that I
don't take what I consider heavy reading on vacation, and
I you know, I experience people's memoirs about their experiences
with addictions heavily because I just like let myself fully
connect to the emotion, which I definitely did, Like I
(01:10):
was crying with you and laughing with you through this book.
But for some reason, I took this book with me
on my vacation to Mexico with my husband, and I
was just really glad that I did. It is such
a beautifully honest and open memoir which you tell us
(01:33):
about is like a new experience than the way you
had learned you had to protect yourself growing up. So
I just wanted to say thank you for writing this
book I have to read. And I know this podcast
is not supposed to be like here we go, this
is a Stash promo, but y'all go get this book.
(01:56):
I'm just gonna I literally sent Laura when I first
started reading and Instagram message and it opened up and
it said, I'm just gonna read a bit from the
author's note, which is the very very beginning, so I'm
not spoiling anything for you. It says in two thousand
and eight, I ended a marriage, got sober, and fell
(02:19):
in love, all within a ten month period. An avid reader,
I scoured bookstores for memoirs during that time, desperate for
stories like mine written by women who looks like me.
I found none. I wrote Stash to make sure that
the next person going through any of that or all
of that, finds themselves in the pages of a book.
(02:43):
I wrote Stash for my sisters, brothers, and others. Of
all backgrounds and colors who are scared to be themselves.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
From the moment I opened it up, I was like,
this is why the universe told me to bring this
book on this vay. So Laura with that super long introduction,
which is like not even what I ever do? Will
you just tell the listeners who is Laura Cathcart Robbins.
I will.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But first of all, I just really want to thank
you for finding me and bringing me on the show.
And then also that read was beautiful. It's exactly how
I would want it to be read if someone someone
else read it, and you did it so beautifully because
the parts and I wrote that off I didn't I
(03:36):
realized I didn't have one as we were going to print,
I didn't have an author's note, and I just forgot
about an author's note. So I had a pretty quick deadline.
I think I had a day to get that in.
Oh wow, And it just it was one of those
things that just flowed out because it was so obvious
(03:57):
to me as to why I wrote the book, and
it was those things that you read. It was it
was just like, there isn't one and it's a huge
dearth in this it's a void, you know, and why
not and why aren't there more So I really appreciate
you King and on that and and like I said,
(04:17):
and just you know, welcoming me the way that you
have being so enthusiastic about about this conversation we're about
to have in advance. So I appreciate all of that.
So I am, I'm a mom. I'm an author, I'm
a writer. I am I'm an activist, and I kind
(04:43):
of I don't even know if I want to identify
that way, but I write provocative pieces about race and
recovery and divorce and relationships. And I sit on the
board of an independent school here in Los Angeles where
I live. My kids are grown. They haven't been there
for a long time, but I created their diversity, Equity, Inclusion,
(05:07):
and Justice committee and I still preside on that committee
because it's really important to me to make sure that
no one drops the ball just because I'm gone. I
want to be sure that the kids that are coming in,
the kids that are already on campus are seen through
a lens of equity. And it's a really you know,
(05:28):
it's not happening, but the effort needs to be there.
So in those two ways. I would say that I
have some activism in my life, and I also advocate
for people in recovery or trying to get into recovery.
I think there's the reason I tell my story is
(05:50):
because I had everything that I think people. Well, I'll
just say that this way. I had everything that I
thought I would want, and I thought those things would
keep me safe from struggle. All you know, the wildest dreams,
the mansions, the nannies, the private planes, the you know,
(06:12):
the yacht vacations, like all those things were part of
my day to day, and yet I was and not
only was I dying, but I was killing myself on
a regular basis. And I had everything to lose, most
importantly my children, which is who the book is dedicated to.
And another reason why I wrote the book because you know,
(06:35):
there's so much stigma around moms and addiction and I
wanted to, you know, not dispel, but kind of explain
how that can happen to someone who loves their children
as much as I do. So, yeah, that is me.
I have a relationship with a man that I write
about in the book, and he and I have been
(06:55):
together for just about sixteen years, which is just about
how long I've been sober, and yeah, I live. I
live comparatively drama free life, but you know, I live.
The life that I had that I thought was beyond
my wildest dreams, was actually not the life that I
(07:19):
am most aligned with. And so what I'm living now
is the life to which I am most aligned and
it feels really good.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And can you tell us, because I think that's a
common experience that we have, and I'll take just a
step back to set kind of like my goal of
the Unaddictioned podcast. So I also recently wrote a book
and it's called Unaddiction Six mind changing conversations that could
save a life. And we wrote made up the word
(07:49):
an addiction, and it's un learn what you think you know, right,
which is part of what you just said. Undo stigma
that is killing people, specially around mothers with addiction. Uncover
the conversations that could save lives. Right. It's kind of
(08:10):
like this unaddictioned word that we made up. And so
what I hope to do with the podcast is for
people the same way you wrote this book, Like I
wrote this book for anybody who has not seen themselves
in a book.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I want people.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Listening to this podcast to hear themselves in the experiences
of all of the people who are coming on and
sharing with us the gift of the experiences they've had
and what they've learned. And so when you think about
the life of your wildest dreams, you drip that up.
(08:46):
Yeah right, yes, so like the life of your wildest
dreams turned out not to be the life that is
most the line and you didn't say this, but tell
me if these words are correct, kind of with your
sense of identity and health and wealth and well being
and calm and purpose and meaning, what was the space
(09:11):
between the two? How did you come to be aware
of the space between the life you thought was the
life of your dreams and the life that is actually
more aligned with who you conceive yourself to be. And
then what was kind of the journey to close that space?
(09:32):
I love the intent of your podcast. I think that's
dope like that.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
We need this podcast, We need that place to talk
about these types of stories. And thank you for that question.
I you know, the journey for me was quite painful.
I am a really prideful, self sufficient I have been
(10:00):
ever since I was a little kid, and for me,
it's very shameful if I can't do something on my own,
And it also brings an unwanted spotlight to me, because
the way I survived my childhood was to be out
of the spotlight, to blend in, and so when I
ask for help, it brings what feels like an unwanted spotlight.
(10:24):
And I avoided that at all costs. And it's one
of the things that kept me in my addiction in
my marriage, in the behavior that supported those two things longer. Well,
there's no good time to be in an addiction, no
good length of time. But in my marriage, I was
(10:45):
in the marriage longer than was good for me. And
you know the reason for that was because I didn't
want to admit that this was too much for me.
I just thought, you know, I can. I just need
some more time to figure this out. There is a
way for me. And you know, at that point, I
(11:07):
was really just looking for a way to exist. I
wasn't looking to live or to thrive, or to find
joy or happiness. I was really just looking for a
way to exist where I didn't feel desperate all the
time or was asleep all the time because I was
doped up. And those were kind of my two speeds,
I was knocked out or desperate, and I guess there
(11:31):
was a third speed, pretending that I wasn't desperate while
I was desperate. And so, you know, the relief came
when I could take that costume off of pretending to
have it all together, put my kids to bed, knock
myself out like that was my only relief. And so
(11:52):
when it became untenable and I decided that I was
going to have to ask for help and do something. Note,
I was really progressed. I was really medically sick, so
I had to be medically detext. I could not at
the point that I was at. You know, certainly years before,
I could have stopped on my own, but where I
(12:14):
had gone to, I couldn't stop without medical intervention. So
I had to seek out help. Medical help is really
what I was looking for in the beginning, because I
didn't want any other kind of any other kind of help.
I was a therapy shunner, definitely not a joiner. I
(12:36):
still haven't. I mean, I've read self help books, but
only because I'm doing research on a guest. I've never
picked up a book to see, oh, this might be
a good way for me to achieve blah blah blah,
And so I was not a seeker at that point.
I was not a seeker of ways to evolve, you know.
(12:59):
Any thing that I sought out was a way to
stay high basically and get away with it, you know.
And then the through line firstash my life in hiding
is and to keep my kids. Like I wanted to
keep my kids in my life. That was my main goal,
but those other goals were right up there with it,
(13:19):
and I didn't want to admit that then. So the
journey to answer your question when I finally put the
substances down was, like I said, quite painful for me,
because I found myself in a position where the expectation
was that I was going to now continually seek help
(13:40):
not only to keep substances out of my life, but
to grow and evolve in a way where I wouldn't
need them, And I didn't want to do any of that.
I didn't want to. I didn't want to put them down, Perry.
I actually thought once I got them out of my system,
I would be able to figure out a way to
continue to use them in a way that you know,
(14:01):
normal people do. You know, occasionally I can take this
when I needed or occasionally I have a social drink,
and you know it.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Always.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
You know, I'm somebody who barely made it past the
ninth grade, who didn't go to college. I have always
found a way around what other people have had to
go through the you know, these particular paces in order
to achieve a goal. You know, I started my own
company and I ran it and it was the most
successful black entertainment pr firm in well it was the
(14:35):
only one in Los Angeles for a while, but it
was very successful. And I did that without having to
get a degree or finish high school. And not that
that was easy, but I always found a way around
to get what I want. And I thought I would
find a way around this, and when it became clear
(14:56):
to me that there wasn't a way around it for me,
you know, joining these sober support groups and learning a
new way of living and being honest for the first
time since maybe I was five years old about everything,
because I had been editing myself for so long, I
(15:18):
was never completely honest. Even if I told you the truth,
it was only part of the truth. You know, I
would hide the rest of the truth because it might
alter the way you saw me and again put a
spotlight on me, which I did not want and I
still don't want. I still you know, I'm not seeking
out a spotlight. Stash was not a book I wanted
(15:41):
to write. It was absolutely the last book I wanted
to write, and it has thrust me into a spotlight
where this is what I'm talking about, but it's not.
It wouldn't be what I wanted. It was what I needed.
It is what I needed. And so the journey looked
like me, you know, sitting with my arms folded and
sunglasses on and lips pursed in backs of sober support rooms,
(16:05):
judging everybody leaving as soon as you know, leaving before
the meeting ended, and arriving after it started, you know,
coming to terms with there were people there who I
had similarities with and seeking them out. But you know,
(16:26):
just very much like the cat that you leave the
bowl of milk on the back porch for if somebody
made any big movements or approached me or I was
gone on the run. But if they just left the
milk out, they worth it, right, It's not worth it.
So I did that dance, you know, for for more
(16:47):
than a year, probably almost a couple of years being
one foot in and one foot out, and uh, you know,
my kids are getting older. My kids are little when
I got sober and they were starting to get older,
and I realize, you know, every minute, hour, you know,
day that went by, I realized more of who I
(17:11):
had been when I was using substances, and more that
I didn't like what I had to do in order
to live that life. And then really started to explore
who I was and what I did like because I
had put all that aside, I didn't know. So my
journey has been sixteen years of kind of figuring out
(17:34):
who I am and what brings me joy. And like
you said, I think you said the word serenity when
you were talking that serenity is something that I'm chasing
now as opposed to running from, because I did. I
ran from the calm. You know.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That serenity is something I'm chasing now as opposed to
running from. I think is a really powerful statement that
people will be able to relate to, because, like you said,
you had three speeds.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, desperate, desperate, desperate, yes or high Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Like the image that I conjured up in my brain
when you said that is like being in a white room,
just screaming into a void. It has like mirrors on
all sides, and you get just like that infinite they're
infinite use in there and you're screaming but it is
just like into a void and nobody hears me, nobody
(18:35):
sees me, and there is no serenity there. But even still,
that's what I know how to do, right, So you
take me out of that room and put me in
a completely serene room, and that's just as stressful because
I don't know how to do this. Yes, I'm running
from this also.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yes, yeah, I mean it's it's a total change. I
think in like the neuropathways, it's like my whole nervous
system needed to be reset. And that's not a one
time reset. It is over and over and over again.
(19:16):
And like I said, it was you know, it wasn't
all painful, but it wasn't pleasant and it was mostly uncomfortable.
The change where I am now it is mostly pleasant
and mostly comfortable, and I find joy every day, you know,
(19:36):
I find and I have, you know, a bunch of
tools for lack of a better word, that I used
to achieve that place where I can access it. But
then it was you know, I kept thinking, oh, you're
never going to do this, You're going to bail because
mostly when things are unpleasant or uncomfortable, it's a hard
(19:58):
no for me, like.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Just for you, I mean fight or flight or flee, yes, yes,
that's that's animal period.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Right right right, yeah, or freeze, which was me or freeze,
Yeah I was, I was freeze. I would just stay,
like I said, try to blend in like the gazelle
right when the lion spots it, like, just don't.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Move right, I'm invisible, invisible, you do not see me.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, yeah, that and that's it. So you know, that's
that's what it was like. And I do. I talk
about it a lot because I know that there are
a lot of people who put down substances and and
and not just you know substances like outside substances, but
there are a lot of people who put down shopping
(20:50):
and gambling and debting and you know, other ways to
activate the same system in one's body in mind. And
there are a lot of people who come in and think,
you know, they're relieved when they come into the rooms
of recovery or whatever that looks like for them, they're relieved.
(21:13):
I was not I was not relieved.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
It felt like.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Everything was abrasive. So I tell this story so that
if that's not your experience, if you don't come in
and feel safe and find yourself relieved, that perhaps there's
still room for you there, even though it might take
a little bit longer or it appears.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I love that. I love that so much because I
think I'm gonna like stick this in the bucket of
things I want people to unlearn. And you touched on
one before that I'm going to try to pull out explicitly.
And then you said this one explicitly, which I want
to magnify. The one you touched on before is that
(21:58):
the concept of addiction is that the drug is the problem,
and as long as you stop using, everything falls into place.
When in reality, what we know and what we talk
about in this book an addiction, I talk about inherited factors,
so like stuff that you're born with or born into
(22:18):
that lay the foundation of risk for developing addiction to
a substance that somebody else can use socially right, and
then also the acquired so the life circumstances that we
experience over our lives once we get beyond childhood that
do the same thing, develop our risk factors for having
(22:40):
addiction to a substance that other people can use recreationally.
So like, the first thing to say explicitly is like,
stopping the drug is just and it may not even
be the first step. There may be other steps that
come before that for people, but it is just one
of the steps. Yes, it is not the cure.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It is not the cure.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
And then the second thing, I love that you you
just said it explicitly, and I just want to shine
a light on it, although you were like, ain't nobody
trying to get lights shone on them? Shine light on it,
which is there's this sense that if you go to
(23:24):
the rooms of recovery, and like, I love that you said,
whatever that means for you. So some people that'll be
twelve steps, some people that'll be smart groups, some people
that'll be a spiritual congregation, some people that'll be gardening,
some people that'll be start running marathons. Like it varies
what that is for you. But just because the first
time you go you don't get that sense of warm
(23:47):
and brace and love and this is what I've been
looking for my whole life, doesn't mean it's not for you.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, and I you know, I think that everything
in me balked at a different solution for what I
was treating. Everything that my mind, my mind was like,
oh no, no, no, this can't be the solution. We
got to go back to the drugs and booze like
that's a solution. Don't don't, don't engage in any of this.
(24:17):
And so I didn't even know what was happening. It
was like I was hijacked and my mind was telling
me get out, which is what I wanted to do.
But I was able to access what I what I
call my higher self, and able to access that at points,
(24:38):
and that allowed me to stay seated. Just to stay seated.
I didn't do anything else but stay seated. I didn't
really listen. I got sober before we had smartphones or
before they were abundant, so they had just come out
that year. So it was like I was going to
(25:01):
get on my phone, you know what I mean, and
lose myself. And that was there was nothing that I
could hold that would distract me. So for a book,
which I wasn't going to bring in read a book,
so I was surrounded by it without a distraction, but
I could only absorb so much even still yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
One of the concepts we talk about in an Addiction
is the magic formula. So, like I said, the first
part of the book, we talked through kind of like
the risk factors biological that you inherit. So like there
is a genetic component, actually a larger genetic component to
addiction than there is psychological and social component. There are
(25:47):
psychological components, there are environmental components, physical environment, cultural environment.
You're born into, some you acquire some along the way.
And so as you're seeking recovery, which is more than
just not using drugs, It is like that sense of
meaning and purpose and joy and calm, right and healing
(26:12):
in your life, everybody's inputs are different and so there
has to be a customized formula for you that addresses
those inputs. And I call that the magic formula. And
so you alluded earlier to that you have tools that
(26:34):
you use to bring this joy and meaning and sense
of purpose into your life each day. And that's another
thing that I want people to hear in this podcast
is like just a bajillion different tools and formulas that
people are using for you to say, oh, I never
thought about that. Maybe I'll try that that might be
(26:55):
something that I'll put in to my magic formula. And
so with that long set, you know, I'll just be
talking Lord to be like get to the question. Can
you can you tell us about your initial formula? Which
(27:15):
part of it was just sit in the room and
I know from the book, like you know document right,
So like can you just tell us from that initial
magic formula how that has evolved over time and what
are tools that you're using today?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I mean, I you're really funny. I like talking
to you. I definitely have things that I do every day,
and I have a podcast, but what I really am
is an author and a writer. So my days consists
(27:59):
mainly of writing. That's what I spend most of my
time doing, and I write about you know, obviously Stash
contains a lot of traumatic experiences and memories of mine.
So and I'm going to relate this to my recovery
because it kind of goes hand in hand for me.
(28:21):
I needed to be able to write Stash without re
traumatizing myself, and that was a so I had needed
for me. I needed to have enough distance from that
and have done enough work so that I could look
at these instances and not be pulled back into it.
But in order to write about them, I have to
(28:41):
kind of relive them. So it's a tricky line. So
part of what I do to take care of myself
in recovery is also part of what I do to
take care of myself as an author, which is, you know,
when I wake up, I have a reading contact in
so that I can read my other ices distance. But
(29:05):
when that's out when I'm sleeping, I can't read my
phone when I pick it up in the morning. So
part of what I do is I do not put
my glasses on until I've meditated.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So I love how practical this is.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yes, I can see maybe there are ten dms I
can see like an I can get it, you know,
a gist of it, but I don't read it until
after I've meditated. I use my phone to meditate. I
have an app, and so I look for like a
ten to twenty minute meditation, depending how much time I have,
(29:42):
and I get up. If my boyfriend's still sleeping next
to me, I'll get up and go meditate. He's a surfer.
Very often he's up at four thirty, so he's up
before me, and he's gone. But that's the first thing
I do is meditate, and the second thing I do
just take supplements and drink a liter of water. I
(30:05):
don't like drinking that much water, but it is good
for to start my day with. Like it's it's good
for me.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yes, my lateral water comes out of a random line.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, I'm ginger tea.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You reuseable? Yes, yes? Or maybe a cickle jar depends
on that.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, I mean it's it's just it sets me up
to have a better day than if I go in
not hydrated. These are things I've learned about myself along
the way. I do take supplements, you know, for thyroid,
for you know, hair growth, for like you know those
types of things.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Your hair girls, supplement is working okay, because you are
all hair full and glossy. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
But you know, I've I've ran out of my supplements
a couple of times. I've been traveling and not had them,
and I notice no difference in my energy level. So
I thought, oh I don't have them, everything's going to
be different, and I didn't feel anything different. But I
take them anyway because I know that they're good for me.
On Sundays, I food prep and I say this to
(31:16):
be because and I'll tell you why this is important
for me, Because I am a junk food junkie, like
I would subsist on Eminem's pepsi and French fries if
I were allowed to, and something with cheese probably cannot
forget the cheese. Cannot forget the cheese. But I'm just saying, right,
(31:37):
but I haven't eaten that way for a long time,
and so in order for me not to go to
what I feel like is comfort food, especially when I've
been writing, because I write pretty long hours. I try
to write for eleven to seven, and that's a long time.
I usually make it to around six o'clock. But it's
(31:57):
very like I want comfort food. I want a slice
of I want a bowl of mac and cheese.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And so you know that's actually like neurobi a lot. Yes, yes,
I've heard that. I've heard that.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
I don't know a lot about it, but I know
that those are things that my mind is asking for.
Yeah right, Yeah, So what I do is I chop
up fruits and vegetables On Sunday. I have a salad
that I love that requires a lot of chopped vegetables.
But if I had to tell me about this, okay,
(32:29):
I am also a junk food lover and a salad lover.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Excellent, So okay, tell me about this this salad.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
So there there's actually two. I make one with baby spinach,
and it has cucumbers, snap peas, beets, raw beets not
cooked at almonds like almond slivers. It has scallions, It
has cherry tomatoes, it has what else does it have
(33:01):
in it? That might be it? Sometimes this is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Can I put some cheese on this salad?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
You could? You could? I actually, so I'm plant based.
Now I've been plant based for four years, so I've
put feta in it, but it's plant based feta feta crumbles.
And Scottie, he's the cook in the family. He makes
me different salad dressings that are also plant based, so
I have a variety of those to choose from. So
(33:28):
I just have them all in different containers, all the
things that I chop the cucumbers, the tomatoes, that everything's
in a different you know, just like a deli cup.
And I chop up the spinach with scissors, with kitchen
scissors so they're bite sized, and then I pour all
the other ingredients and mix it in with dressing, and
I eat it and it's fast, and it's fast. I
(33:50):
can do it at my desk if I want. I
try not to. That's that's not as good for me either.
In sitting as the new smoking. So I wear my
apple for the people in the bag.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
It is by the people in the back I mean,
doctor Rinzinga Harrison. I'm sitting in the back road.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
But it's you know, it's just not great for you
to sit for long periods of time. So though, that
is another thing that I do that is good for
for my cause when I do eat junk food, and
you can eat a lot of junk food when your
plant based, my brain is, first of all, it's focused
(34:29):
on that. Then it's like, ooh, there should be some
more potato chips right upstairs, let's go get those. But also,
I just have a different experience with my day. I'm
more tired, I'm I'm less patient. I feel more easily
irritated by things like my boyfriend's breathing.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Oh man, all he has to do is breathe.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Sometimes sometimes it's you know, he has a very strong
breath flow, and you know, most of the time when
I'm right, I don't even hear it. Yeah, but when
like my antennas, yes, there's nothing. So I food prep,
(35:19):
I meditate. I Also, the other thing I do after
I drink that leader of water is I work out
and I either write my peloton or I go to
the gym where I do strength training, and I do
that five days a week. I don't work out every day.
I give myself two days to have two days of rest,
but actually on Saturday I do a hike, so it's
(35:41):
not a complete day of rest. And you know, I
balance out, like I don't book myself for one social
more than one social thing a day. I actually try
not to book myself for more than one thing a day.
If I'm leaving the house, I'm leaving the house for
one thing and then I'm coming back home. I don't
stab my days. And I want to also just recognize
(36:03):
and acknowledge that there is privilege in that I am
able to do that, you know. So it's it's it's
what works for me, you know, at my age. I'm
turning sixty in August, and I feel like I've earned
(36:24):
a little bit of like do what you want, you know,
what you like, so do what you want?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, so's that's kind of what I've been exploring, just
to see what's good for me. Working Out is good
for me, food prep is good for me, Meditating is
good for me. I pretend I attend sober recovery support meetings.
I attend probably two or three a week. You definitely two,
(36:52):
sometimes a third. That's good for me. And I want
to also just quickly give you the caveat that after
in of these things that I'm listening, I never feel good.
I'm never glad I worked out. I'm never glad that
I ate the salad. I'm never glad that I meditated.
But and I shouldn't say I'm not glad that I did.
I don't feel good because of it. I don't right,
(37:14):
you don't get an immediate no now. But I am
so much better in total because of those things. And
I have that ability Like if if addiction is disease,
a state of dis ease, what my life looks like
now is ease. You know where I and I love
(37:35):
the ease. I want it. I want that ease. So
if these are the things that work, this is what
I'm doing, that's right. I love that perspective, because we are.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Conditioned to need the immediate reinforcement, and that's what drugs
do for us. And that's what junk food does for
us through the exact same pathway at through the dopamine pathway.
That's what gambling does with us. That's what sex does
for us. That's what shopping does for us. That's what
clearing out social media notifications does for us. Right, Like,
(38:09):
it gives us that dopamine ping and gives us that
immediate reinforcement. But I love this idea of the longitumine
of you, and I would say this is kind of
core to recovery is if addiction is disease, then recovery
is finding the life that brings you ease. And that
(38:31):
will be different for everyone. Right Like, you were like
I only do one social thing a day, and I
was like, oh, I love to only do one thing.
I literally like found myself like dreaming about it. Whereas
a colleague of mine the other day was like, if
I could, I would throw a party every day. I
was like, oh yeah, yeah, So like her life of
ease wouldn't be only one social activity right a day,
(38:54):
or one commitment a day. And so just honoring that
process of one coming to understand what ease means for you, yes,
and then not judging ourselves because I think we're also
very conditioned when we figure it out to say like,
but that's not right, right, right, Like I shouldn't be
(39:15):
I shouldn't be like that. Just being able to be
unapologetic for finding ease.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
That is it unapologetic?
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Right?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Okay, time flies too fast one when you have ten
minutes of technical difficulties too when the conversation is flowing
so easy. But we are rounding the bend. So the
last question I like to ask everyone, and sometimes I
remember to tell them in the beginning, and I did
not remember to tell you, so Yes, the name of
(39:52):
my book is an addiction unlearned what you think you know,
undo stigma, us killing people, Uncover conversations that could save
somebody's life. If you wanted to tell us one thing
or two or three whatever that you want us to unlearn,
or one thing that you want us to undo, or
one thing one conversation you want us to uncover you
(40:14):
really think could save somebody's life, what would you leave
us with? Wow?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I think, and I will say for myself this is
something I would like to unlearn is and this still
happens to me, you know. And the program that I'm in,
(40:40):
the recovery, the Sober Support Group, I guide ten or
eleven women I can't remember how many right now through
the same program, and I have someone who guides me
through it. I'm always working with people who are having
experiences that are challenging, work with people who drink again
(41:02):
and use again, or you know, break their their sex
and love sobriety, or or or with food addiction, to
break that sobriety in the various ways it can be broken.
And you know, my with them, I have this immediate
(41:28):
well spring of tolerance. Like I get it. I absolutely
get it. I understand. I do an internal diagnostic sweep
to see if there's any judgment there, and I don't
find any. However, when there are people outside of my
circle and you know, maybe they're raising their hand for
(41:54):
the sixteenth time as somebody who's starting a day count
again or whatever it might be, and you know, I do,
I find I find myself judging this is really the
main thing. I find myself judging other pathways to recovery
(42:16):
and dismissing them as shortcuts or just you know, like
subpar for whatever reason, because they're not as they don't
have the same components as the program that I'm in,
which are the only components that work. Right, this is
in my head, and so you know, and a lot
(42:39):
of other programs don't even do daycounts. They don't you know,
you don't have to confess if you have picked up
whatever whatever you put down again. You just keep pushing.
And that's a really beautiful way to go for a
lot of people, and it's the only way they could
go forward. Right. So, I think what I'd like to
(43:01):
unlearn about addiction is really what I want to unlearn
about recovery, which is that there is a path to it,
and any variations of that path are open for judgment,
and to really not just say the words, but shift
(43:23):
internally so that I'm not judging when someone else brings
these things up to me or something for them that worked,
I'm not like, yeah, not for long in my head,
Oh that worked for you. Just wait, I'll be saving
a seat for you. I would really not like to
unlearn that talk inside of me and skip to the
(43:47):
same thing that I skip to with the women I
was talking about which is absolute compassion and identification, regardless
of how anybody gets to where they're going, as long
as they're moving in that direction, even if they're not,
one is none of my business. And two, there are
(44:09):
a variety of ways, you know, in just as there
are many ways to be black, right, there are, so
we are not a monolith. It's and people who see
us that way are really missing out on the nuances
and the subtleties and the variety. And I think it
is the same for recovery. And I think that maybe
(44:30):
there's not as many recognize, you know, by legally right
by the courts, there's one way. If you're going to
be sentenced to anything, you're going to be sentenced to this.
But I would like to myself open up and see things,
like I said, not just with more compassion, because that
(44:51):
almost sounds like it borderlines pity, but just with more
curiosity and generosity. Anything that anyone does, I would like
to see it with more curiosity and generosity instead of
being snide and internally, you know, I really try not
to project this nightness, but instead of that snide you know,
(45:13):
little Aunt June voice in my head, she ain't gonna
make it. Just watch. I want that voice.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I love it so much, and I think I think
you may be the first guess to say what I
want to unlearn as opposed to this is what I
want people to unlearned, which I really value that. I
really value that, and I think we all get programmed
with Aunt Jude's little voice, and so I definitely want
(45:47):
all of us to unlearn that snide voice and learn
the voice of curiosity and generosity. I think that's really beautiful. Okay,
that is it, But I promise, like I for really
want to be your friend. Yes, the last time, I'm
(46:11):
in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Georgia, really decaying you're in Atlanta. Yes, the main the
water main broke yesterday.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
I didn't even know. No, I no, I hope I'm
on a different water mean, we just our water heater
just like weeks ago, and the water, the hot water
came out of the it looked like mud. I was like,
what is happening? But thank you, thank you, thank you,
thank you so much. Yeah for coming on the podcast,
(46:41):
Like I said, for writing this book, and I especially
want to emphasize what you said earlier, like this is
not just like just writing a book. You had to
protect yourself while you were writing this book, while you
were opening kind of to the deepest part of the
scariest thing that you have been through. And so I
(47:02):
think that's just really beautiful that you did that for us.
And then lastly, I read your book while I was
in Mexico and I emailed Jada and I was like,
I want season four to be dedicated to black people.
And it was because of what you wrote in your
author's note. Yes, so we are dedicating season four of
(47:25):
an addiction podcast to black people.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
So thank you, Yes, thank you, thank you. That is wonderful.
I will be listening.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
We're going to get.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Together in real life one day. So my podcast is
called the Only One in the Room. It was born
out of a viral article that I wrote for HuffPo
in twenty eighteen. I got into a three day, six
hundred person retreat led by Elizabeth Gilbert and Cheryl Strade,
and for three days, I was the only black person
(48:01):
I saw, and I was checking the kitchens and housekeeping.
I was like, there's got to be another black person
here somewhere. I'd never been in a space with that
many people where I was the only person in the room.
I'd been the only one in the room, but never
that many people, and so I wrote about it. The
article went viral, and I knew that black people would
(48:23):
respond to it, but I honestly thought that only black
people would respond to it. But what happened was I started,
I was flooded with responses from all kinds of people
all over the world. It went viral really quickly, and
they sent back stories, like one of them was a
white woman in her sixties who went in to take
(48:45):
a yoga class and she's overweight, and everybody turned to
look at her like she had two heads, and she left.
And so I was like to Scott, who's my boyfriend?
And now he's the executive producer, Like this could be
a podcast where we tell these only one stories. We're
you know, not just stories of black people who or
(49:08):
minorities who feel like, you know, I'm alone in the
dominant culture. But we could tell stories of anyone who
felt like there were room alone in a room full
of people. So so those are the stories we tell.
The podcast has a little over five million downloads. I
think we have eight hundred and something episodes in the can.
(49:28):
We're now in our twentieth season and we you know,
we just we just keep rocking. And it's kind of
a folding your laundry podcast. They're all stories, so it's
a storytelling podcast. It's not prescriptive, it's not it's not
how to. We don't generally any bring on anybody that's
(49:49):
an expert just because they're an expert. We need their story.
So if you are taking a hike, or folding the
laundry or cooking dinner, this is the podcast for you.
Thank you for letting me talk about.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
It a little bit. Wow. Thank you so much for
tuning in. And if you like this episode, please check
out my book on Addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that
Could Save a Life, available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop
dot Org, Union Scoring Company, Amazon, and wherever books are sold.
(50:22):
We want to hear from you. If you identify as
black or brown and have a recovery story to share,
something you've learned, a stigma that you've undone, or a
conversation that you've had about addiction. Send us a voicemail
at speakpipe dot com, slash you apod that's speak pipe
(50:43):
dot com, slash you a pod
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