Episode 22: Jessica Hoppe (First In the Family)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zanga Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
By their identities.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too. Okay, I
gave like a super long setup once we actually get
Jessica Hoppy on the line, so I'm going to keep
this quick. But this season was initially intended to be

(00:42):
all black everything, and then Jessica reached out to me
and I knew that it needed to be black and
brown and you'll hear the context for that. And so
this episode is all about the journey to being able
to bring your full self to recovery, including the wounds
that have been caused by systemic racism, marginalization, misogyny, patriarchy.

(01:09):
Your experience is real and we see you, and it
can be deadly. And to that comment, this episode is
dedicated to Jessica's cousin, Hans, who lost his life at
the hands of the wounds caused by these systems, and
in honor of him, we are shining a light on

(01:30):
those wounds so that if you have them, hopefully this
can begin healing by being seen and validated and welcome
to the cry fast. Okay, I'm about to give the
longest setup ever. I am wordy anyway, but this episode
actually earns a super long setup. So, Jessica, I am

(01:55):
so super excited. Ray have you here with us this morning?
I am reading First in the Family by Jessica hop
Oh my god, it's so good.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
So Jessica, I'm gonna look. Oh wait, we have to
do at the same time. That's so cute.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Understand, yay yay.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
So this is this is.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Black and Brown Women author Power. Great, So let me
tell you what happened season four.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
So we were doing seasons one, two, and three.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
One it was hard to find black guests and two.
Each black guest that came on had this similar theme
to the story that was like finding the path to
start recovery was so hard because my face was not
the face of recovery. When I there were not like
people there for me. I didn't see that it was
for black people. Being black has its own set of

(02:58):
experiences that are really important part of developing addiction, getting
on the path of recovery, staying in recovery, whatever that
means to you.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
And so I was like, you know what, I was like, Jada,
Season four.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
All black everything period, right, Like, we're just gonna get
do six episodes and it's gonna be all black guests,
and we like went on this hardcore path to have
season four be all black. And so then I get
Aaron Carr, thank you very much thinking email that's like introducing.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
You to Jessica Hop And I read your email.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
I was in Indianapolish and I read your email, and
this is what I sent back to you. I said,
you grabbed my heart with quote I became addicted to
measuring my value and self worth by my achievements, a
common symptom of forced assimilation. And I wrote you back,

(03:55):
my god praying hands. Now that's what I wrote you back.
It took me like four or five days to respond
to you. I'm super fast on an email. I usually
respond within one day. When I first got your email,
I immediately responded and I wrote out, Jessica, oh my god,
you grab my heart and so I love this and

(04:15):
I definitely want your book and I'm going to buy it,
but we're not having any more episodes of an Addiction.
I wrote it, yep, but I could not make myself
click sind. So then it's sat in my drafts for
like three days and I was like, Okay, I can't
click sind because I need Jessica's voice on the Unaddictioned

(04:37):
podcast and I need people who are having Jessica's story
to hear their story on the Unaddictioned podcast. So I
sent Jada in email and I was like, Jada, what
do you think about season four Black and Brown? And
she was like, hell, yeah, that's probably not what you said,
but that's what I imagine you said in my life.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's what I said.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, my internal, my internal response was yes.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
And so thank you because we would have missed this opportunity.
And I would just like to say thank you to
the universe for your timing, because even just a few
weeks later, it would have been so much harder to
say yes, and we needed to say yes.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
So that was the longest setup ever. But thank you
for being here.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
I my intention in asking Erin was just to be
connected with you because you've just been such a beacon
for me and I know so ant people and it's
just really been like the light at the end of
the tunnel, just you know, affirming what can in recovery
feel very much like gaslighting. It's being like, you're absolutely

(05:49):
right about the way that you feel matters, and it's
so it does, and it does matter that you're a doctor,
and it doesn't matter that you have all experience that
you and that you're a black woman. So for me,
I just wanted you to know that you're a huge
part of my book and my recovery. That's really what
I wanted. But to be on your platform, oh my god,

(06:13):
Like that's an honor to know that you're reading my book.
A dream. So I'm just happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
It's so good.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
This book is first in the family, Jessica Hopp, it
is my you know, have fun on the airplane. I
only do two things on the airplane. I sleep, and
I eat snacks, and then I read books.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Okay, I guess that's me too. I guess that's three things.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
And so I'm plenty on airplanes and so I'm reading
your book fast.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
But will you just thank you for your words, they
were beautiful and forgetting Terry. Are you a cry baby too?
Because I'm a cry baby.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
I was like, I'm holding it in, and I was like,
why is she trying to make the cry baby come
out of me?

Speaker 2 (06:56):
First thing in the morning, you ken?

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Can I feel a lot, which obviously, like you know,
goes with my sensitivities. And then I just yeah, I
that emotion just moves through me, and it's through my
tears and so. But yeah, we're so socialized to feel like,
oh I'm ashamed or so I do still get that feeling.
But I do feel very safe here, and I think

(07:21):
you should know how deeply I feel, you know, and
getting emotional. I think it's just part of my excitement
and the overwhelm of it all.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
But I love it. I love it.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
I mean to talk about someone who can really get
into this, you know, because like when you're obsessed with
this kind of material, it's not like everyone in your
life is obsessed as a material.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
It's true, It's true. It's true.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Of the back and forth with someone who like really
gets sick, you can like even get deeper and like
a more expansive. I'm just very excited as well.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you to get into it,
Jessica by I asked Jada. Jada is usually in producer mode.
I wanted us to have like a black and brown
conversation here, and Jada has her own experiences with this
forced assimilation. And so thank you Jada for being here

(08:20):
for our listeners.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Also totally. I am so excited.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
I just wanted to say, like, like your emotions even
just like opening up in the some of the first
words was it your the introduction to your book or
your author's note. You were talking about how you essentially
were numbing yourself to not feel So it's so cool

(08:47):
to see the or like this part of where you are.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's like it's very cool.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
So thank you, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
All right, so Jessica, let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Will you please just tell anybody who's listening who is
Jessica hop Wow, So like a psychiatrist's question, right, Okay,
let me just.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Lean night in my church now. I am a person
in recovery. I've been abstinent for eight years. I don't
sort of qualify my recovery by my time of abstinence.
I choose abstinence every day because I still sort of

(09:41):
I feel a little unsure of how I could integrate
substances back in my life, and I don't one hundred
percent trust that I could have that right relationship that
like alignment. I'm also like really curious about what this
journey can bring me, and I do like to be

(10:04):
present and feel my feelings and not just have these
like outbursts. You know, I'm the youngest of three daughters.
I grew up in a really strong group of women
with a young mother, so oftentimes it felt like four
sisters you know very much, and like the strong, silent

(10:26):
type father, and so there was a lot of emotion,
lots of loud voices and opinions. And my response was
sort of to be the pleaser, the people pleaser, the
person you felt very responsible for making people feel good
and happy and things would be okay. So then when

(10:47):
I began to use substances that would lead to like
these really angry outbursts.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
And you were how old, Jessica.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
When I started, well, my parents were really strict, so
we were not allowed to, like, uh, there was no
drinking in the house, and I didn't really know what
that was about. Other than my mom raised us. Jope's witnessed.
So there were a lot of rules and restrictions, like

(11:16):
the stories of goodness and morality, you know, very strong,
you know, that minery. But then my mom would be
oddly like permissive with some things, and she was very
rebellious and big feminists in other ways. So it was
sort of you know, the Celia way of you know,

(11:39):
being in this community. And what I know is that
she ultimately felt very isolated in the place where we
were growing up, where she decided that it would be
safest best to raise us, and she really needed community.
And she herself came from a very traumatic background and
really difficult upbringing and under us, and so she did

(12:01):
have this feeling, this belief that I think we export
around the world, that this is a good place here
in the United States, that we need to you know,
fully where we are or the place has where we
come from our shitthole countries and things like this. So
you know, she she had that feeling, but she didn't
she didn't block, she didn't find me, so she's very isolated.

(12:24):
Religion was an answer for her. And so yeah, we
were very strict and my father didn't drink either he
doesn't drink. That doesn't mean that these psychles of behavior
were not present in our lives. The chronic illness was
not very present in our lives. You know, a lot
of that runs through our family, from schizophrenia, epilepsy, blood pressure, diabetes,

(12:51):
you name it. And my mom La suffered with manic depression,
and in my childhood, depression is a big thing. I
often and if i'm you know, experiencing a period of depression,
because I think it's something that is just it's either
overused or it kind of loses its actual meaning, or

(13:12):
it's like very stigmatized too, just like everything else. So
you don't want to be thought of as being lazy
or like you can't kick your shit together, you know.
So I don't really know how to kind of sort
of claim that for myself yet, but I do feel
like that's certainly something that occurs for me.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, I think I'll just jump in there to your point,
it's either something overused or you fall into this very
kind of stigmatized bucket.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
I'll just call it.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, I like to.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
I think I see a couple of things going on simultaneously.
One is that the stigma around having depression is coming down,
and so people are calling more and more and more
things depression and that is excellent and I love that.
The other thing is we're pathologizing, Yeah, normal reactions, normal

(14:10):
human experiences. And so there is depression with a little
D that is a feeling, that is an emotion, that
is a normal reaction to grief and harm and fear
and trauma.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
And then there's depression with.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
A big D, yeah, which is a diagnosis, right, And
so I think those two things are getting kind of
pulled together. And it's important to know when we're experiencing
little D depression because we still need support, yeah, yeah,
And it's important to know when we're experiencing big D
depression because now there's another layer.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Of support that you need.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
When my mom had big D, like and man expression
andious flashbacks and nightmare and just like an inability to
get out of bed and they and suicidal ideation, she
took medication and she felt like she had a very

(15:17):
bad response so anything. And then she had and my
father too, a lot of medical traumas. There's always been distrust, yeah,
well from medicine, doctors, et cetera. And I have to
affirm feels about that because it's very real. I mean,
she literally almost died in check for several times, and

(15:39):
you know, through the negligence and just a desire to
either test on women of color, which I'm sure we
all have experience within our lineage, and also to just
disregard our pain and and our care and our children
as well. Right, so she was very much in survival mode.
I don't know if she's been able to you know,

(16:00):
passed through that. I think from my father as well,
there's a deep, deep, deeply ingrained paranoia anything from like
any bill that comes or any small slight. It's it's
related to just a network of things and people who
just actively want to harm him. And he believes that,

(16:24):
and I understand why he does because of his life
experience and the fact that when he really did have
a very real story and it needed to be validated,
it never was. So if you go through life and
you know that any truth that you have a real,
real issue and that you're right, you know, and it's

(16:47):
never affirmed, and that can even like for him, that
it went very public. You know, it was in our
local newspaper. It was a Corey. I just think he's
really never moved on from that. From the not be
leaved and my mother as well. And I had an
experience and not being believed in my sexual assault, and

(17:07):
I think witnessing them never be believed was part of
what kept me isilent for really like fifteen years. And
so that's when my youth went up, you know, and
I think, you know, as you write about like a
big thing was going to college. First of all, getting
out of you know, the controlled area of my parents.

(17:32):
There was a lot of rebellion and just like a
desire to get the out of the town. And I
had that same I was mirroring my parents' dream that
like you know, the geographic was going to solve it all.
I'm going to get out of this or like nobody
understood me, and I was going to be in this

(17:52):
other place with a fresh start.

Speaker 5 (17:55):
And like I went to Boston, you know, like what
the that was like.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Nic no shade to the individuals in Boston, but let's
just get right.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah, the women that I've worked with at the time
of Butterflies, which is a noncrapic I work with helps
women of color through domestic violence, abuse and families, and
we do other you know, mental health initiatives for women
of color, but no shade.

Speaker 5 (18:23):
But it is super racis Yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
Uh, it was the same thing it was, you know,
Higley Applan. It's the haves, have not, have not, and
uh and now I'm in this. I felt like I
was in the pressure cooker really because if high school
was was a lot of pressure as well. But I
understood that I just like didn't have what the other

(18:48):
kids had, Like I was ever going to even keep
up with the Jones. It was very much about appearances.
And I was struggling with some neurodivergence and lexic and
my parents wanted to kind of field me from any
kind of labels or you know, marginalization that could happened
fair enough. But yeah, I was sort of treading water constantly.

(19:10):
And then I did think that college would be a
fresh start and I would like dive into my courses
and I'd be doing really well and very focused, and
I sort of lose my way and I sort of
give up on myself. You know, I wouldn't feel comfortable asking.

Speaker 5 (19:27):
For help or.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Help with notes or going to my professor's I just
I never felt like, you know, the authority figures were
a place where I could find like the help that
I needed. And obviously that was like a familial you know,
learned behavior, but also was my lived experience too because
my my teachers did not care that I was falling behind.

(19:53):
I think there was a severe change in my disposition
in my behavior at school before my sexuals and after
everything from the way I walked around the way I
wouldn't interact with that into the way I dressed, like
I was constantly to the principal's office for like wearing
a short skirt or wearing something, you know, and like
it was like hoodies, put up, baggy clothes, don't look

(20:17):
at me. If anyone was paying attention, there would have
been some kind of assistance. And I do still feel
very sorry for that, for that girl, for the child,
But it just wasn't the kind of place where the
things that I needed were just actively provided for. They
were working with people who really had a lot, and

(20:42):
so it was a different mission to get people. You know,
of course everyone was trying to scale higher, but we're
talking about you know, beginning at different positions. Terms like privilege,
white supremacy, racism, like these were just not there was
just like you're making excuses. Like when I got into

(21:04):
college early, I got into Tufts, I got wait listed
at TAPS, and one girl to spread a rumor that
that was affirmative action, and I was just like deeply humiliated.
I tried to like stand up to her in a way,
but mostly I was just humiliated. And then I believed her.
I was like, yeah, there, that's crazy. You know. It

(21:26):
really accepts what people said and thought about me, and
I think that was so toxic for me. So once
I was free and all the kids were drinking, whoa
like it Like it just was I struck a match
and it was really the solution. Like the moment I
took a drink, I had that whole feeling of euphoria excitement,

(21:51):
like what really for almost like the first time I
took cocaine, Like whoa, I was really rocket it as
Bill and Bob's an.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
But like freedom right, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
But very quickly the brain would start thinking, oh my god,
this isn't gonna last, this isn't gonna laugh, this is
gonna last, and I'd be like okay anymore, and so
I would start like drowning myself very quickly, and like
The pregame was my favorite because that was basically the
only time that I would remember, and I would sort

(22:28):
of hide my behavior by like being the person who's
passing around the drinks as we're getting ready, and so
my sister's not really paying attention to me. She's getting ready,
or she's with the guys she was seeing, or she's
with her other friends. And then we would all run
out the door and I'd be like, oh, I forgot
my phone, Oh I forgot my bah whenever these are

(22:50):
the right shoes, it's too cold, like, and I'd go
back in and I'd like take a couple more shots,
and by the time we'd be at whatever place, I
would be like back compending into some like offwar dance
move that would really humiliate me. Now if I were.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Not because like I give a drab but I a
don't think, but just because it's not a good dance move.

Speaker 5 (23:13):
I don't want to.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
But when you're like, when you're like four or five
six shots in, it is the move?

Speaker 6 (23:21):
Do you go all the way back and come and
return to upright positions?

Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean it is impressive. I am actually impressed.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
Yeah, it was a gymnast I don't know what hell
was going on, and then rating anger or like absolutely blackout.
And then I would wake up wherever. I would wake
up in the room of the guy I was seeing,
I would wake up in my sister's bed, I would
wake up wherever. And then it was the the response,

(23:53):
you know, always the like, do you know what you did?
Do you know you starret? Do you know what happened?
How did you get home?

Speaker 1 (24:01):
And so this is you asking yourself those questions other
people asking you did like.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I can't believe such where I would have upset someone,
I done something, you know, to my partner. You know,
I would have been dancing with someone else. I might
have kissed someone else, I mean to you know, I
just yeah, And I genuinely did not remember, but I
felt horrible, and so I was just doing all the

(24:29):
things that would confirm all the horrible ways that I
felt about myself. And if I looked up to those
and those were those were true, and I just not
a mission to make sure that they were true. Like
the narratives that I had running around in my head,
my brain was just searching for the confirmation, you know,
I was collecting the data on what should I was, and.

Speaker 5 (24:49):
I was, you know, adding more, Yeah, but I yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
This is how our brains work. By the way, this
is how our brains work.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
So it's like, you decide to buy a red car
because you don't see anybody in your town with red cars,
and you're like, I'm going to buy a red car
and I'm going to be the only one. And then
as soon as you make that decision, all you see
is red cars, right, and you're like, what the And
so that's why these childhood narratives are so incredibly powerful,

(25:21):
because your brain becomes tuned to, like you said, collect
the data to continuously reinforce those So even even if
let's say, and I'm just making this up, ten percent
of the time the data from your life was reinforcing
those beliefs, and ninety percent of the time it was

(25:44):
something else, your brain cannot even see that ninety percent right,
because it discards that ninety percent as not true. It
can only collect data that says you're a piece of shit,
You're a piece of shit, You're a piece of shit,
and it internalizes and back to this force assimilation. Really,
the danger of racism, the danger of oppression and marginalization,

(26:09):
is that those messages get internalized.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yes, and that's when it's really dangerous.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's one thing to have someone else saying it to you,
because maybe you can refute that, right, But when your
brain is collecting the data and saying it back to you,
that's when it really becomes right deadly.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
And that narrative has been programmed. And that's actually the
organizing principle of the world that we live in is
so insidious. But then you have other narratives, you know,
so my mom would be very confused, or like my
friends would be very confused. My sister's like you're so beautiful,

(26:51):
or you know, everything going for you, like why you
know'd be things of why don't you love yourself? Like
I'm gon understand, and I would feel shamed, you know,
like I just didn't have what other people had, like
a care respect for myself, Like I would just some
like you know, throwaway and if and then you know,
we get all the like armchair like social media, you

(27:14):
like wellness things and these ideas about like manifesting and
like you know, it's like you're kind of cheered by
a mindset or something like this, and and I'm like
that's all well, and good, and I do know that
I like actively talk to myself, like I was just
on NBC News and you have to not only go
on there on live national television. They tell you minutes

(27:35):
before it begins, and it's three minutes and when they
tap on the table and meet shut the and you
have something that means so much to you, you know,
and you have like a rehearse set of ideas that
you you're like, gotta say this, and in the three minutes,
like I got a little repetitive. And then I was
a little thrown off by the first question because it

(27:56):
wasn't what I had in my mind locked in, and
so I I was like, what happened? And then when
I walked watched it back, I was like, okay, it
was okay. But then I repeated this, she said this,
and it became that and I was literally like awoken
in my sleep with all the things that I should
and I had to literally stay out loud like that's enough.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
You know what? Did I say? What I said?

Speaker 5 (28:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (28:24):
I said what I said.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
I'm very proud of what I said.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
And I imagine I didn't even see it, but like
this is the difference, right, So you came to me
by email, and it was like I immediately felt my
heart connect to you.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
I don't know why this is making.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Me whatever, but like I read your email and I immediately.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Like I told you, like I couldn't say no. Yeah,
And so my I do not know you.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, but my belief about you is wrapped in this
belief that you have an ability to.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Bring a light to the world.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Thank you, based on your experiences, and it's a light
that people need to hear and that people need to see.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
And so I didn't even see your three minutes on NBC.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
But what I imagine about your three minutes on NBC
is that it saved somebody's life, right, Like it made
somebody be seen and that it was a light for somebody.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, And I think maybe and I like to let
my tears fall down my face because I love crying,
but maybe I do. I love crying, and I challenge people.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
I'm like, let the tears fall down your face, Oh
my god, and they like, give me a CLEANEX and
I'm like, I don't want your clean X. But then
but then they start getting dry, and then your face
starts feeling like nasty.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
So then you have to like it's like natural tone.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
I mean, yeah, you have to like spread it out
or else it's like it's a problem. But like I
think what is making me cry is because it's back
to that ten percent narrative. Yes, that has been trained
into you, right, and even you're at this point of
such beauty and it still is so painful.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
That's what I said. When my book came out, I
was like so low, and my mom even came into
the city to be with me, and I never I'm
just not disrespectful to my parents. I just and not
because they were like so strict. They were very strict
and like you were not going to say any.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Feelings, say save your own life, save your own life
before you say whatever you Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
I really appreciate when they try to grow with me.
I was just like I was so low. I was
being like a little bratty, you know, even to my mom,
who also wants to have this moment, who also wants
to feel this moment, and you know this is hers too,
It really is. These are her stories as well. I'm

(31:02):
so lucky to you know, have my name on the cover,
but it's all of our names, it's all of our lives.
It's all of our stories. And I just I was like,
I can't, I can't do this. And I especially, I
think for people of color especially, it's like perfectionism is
a virtue.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, for people, it's a survival never mind a virtue.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
It's like a survival necessity.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah. And like you say it like with like a
lot of pride.

Speaker 5 (31:27):
You're like, well, I'm a perfectionist.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
And it's like, oh my god, Like the amount of
mistakes that I see people make and they keep it
moving and they're full of bride and they show up
like they own it.

Speaker 5 (31:40):
And I'm like.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Up at night in the middle of the night with
like some historic like there is literally there is genuinely
no reason in the world that my book should exist.
I am not. I don't come from a publishing background.

Speaker 5 (31:57):
There are no writers to.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Night fail me. There's no connect. Couldn't be publishing. I
didn't go for school school for it. I don't have
an MFA, nothing, I scrapped. I live in New York,
which is an enormous privilege. And I like it was
almost like door to door, like going back to my
job as witness days.

Speaker 5 (32:14):
It was like hi out there.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Thank you for this childhood experience.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
That was like and it was also kind of like
my recovery where I like I could never stand up.
I would try very often and like stand up, like
if it was my father, if it was my sister,
was my mother, who like, you're not saying any shit
to the people I love. For myself, I found it
incredibly difficult, particularly when it came to things like race, misogyny,

(32:45):
no patriarchal structures and norms, I would totally fold. I
felt a deep shame about myself and this you know,
the percentage of my brain that is hyper focused on
where I fall short. Was just saying, yeah, it's not
white supremacist. See this isn't about it just about fact
that I'm not smart enough or like I'm really money
or you know what I mean, like blaming the individual

(33:08):
systemic issues. Were just sing that, Like I totally bought
into that, like one thousand percent.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, because if you were if you were good enough,
or if you have worked hard enough, or if you
were exceptional.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Enough, exactly you could overcome the system. And look at
the look at.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Those people who did right, So like it's possible, right,
and so if it's not happening it's you, which is
BS exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
And what we tend to do is we elevate those stories, right,
so we get the we get the statistics, we get
the numbers. It's like two percent of us are in
Ivy League colleges, two to six percent, and like after
all the changes in the Supreme Court, they're diminishing those numbers.
Profit So I think we're around six percent from what
I understand for people who identify as that to next

(34:00):
for people who identify as Latin X. For all books
published in North America, it's six percent, it's three. It
went up. It's probably coming down now because initiatives in
D and nine and are going band. So when they
take a chance on a book that's by a person
of color, it better perform because they bet on you,

(34:25):
and you know otherwise, like it's not the same pressure
as other books, and so you're, yeah, it feels like
an enormous, tremendous pressure. You have a you feel a
deep responsibility. It's very much like it's very much the
American dream, you know, being sort of projected. That idea

(34:46):
gets projected into so many aspects of our life. Like
if I felt that with my family, I feel that,
you know, in publishing. I feel that about my book.
I feel that in my relationship. You know that I
have to kind of pull a rabbit out of a hat,
you know, without ever being given an example about how
to like healthily conduct a relationship. I'm trying to essentially

(35:08):
pull off the marriage with someone who also has never
seen or experienced a healthy relationship. And so we do
really damn well, but it's not burbing. Then I have
the perfectionist, and I have all the societal influences that
we should be and we shouldn't be in like, I
get obsessed with watching Love Is Blood and he's just like.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Oh my god, I legit.

Speaker 5 (35:33):
It's just such a social legit.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Did Jada, what was the story I told you when
we were waiting for.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Jessica to the joining. Oh my god, it's a preposterous.
I'm binging season seven.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
So I just started it yesterday and I was like, okay,
my first meeting is ten thirty.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
I got out of the shower. It was ten eighteen.
I was like, I can get it. This is ridiculous crazy.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
That is the show. It feels like when I used
to use because you know, you stay up all night
and like that will stay up on that.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
It makes no it is so bad.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
I'm like crying, I like feel in my heart. I'm like, oh,
I'm rooting for you.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
I'm like, you can't talk to him like that. No,
like I am in it is a mess.

Speaker 5 (36:19):
And I believe it.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
At first, I'm like, this plan't be like their most
successful season.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
It is, And I'm like, okay, they obviously like because
last season, Jessica, listen, y'all like got some people that
were not looking for love, they were looking for ig followers.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
And I think they did a better job.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
That's what's happened everywhere, and that like you can like
have a jump off that's right career and so the yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
But anyway, anyway, because we will clearly fall down.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
The love is blind rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Like you definitely feel like you're he should be very
very grateful for the pathway you you know, broken through gatekeepers,
but you also have no map, you have no resources,
you know, So it's like it's it's always that that
cash twenty two, Like you're it's it's difficult. So my

(37:17):
my focus, I maintain a focus on the message, the
purpose of the book, and that like one of my
friends who I believe I feel it's like a very spiritual,
very spiritual person that I really admire and I trust.
One of the first things they said to me was like,
this isn't about you. And I'm mostly.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Like, you're like, it's.

Speaker 5 (37:43):
A memoir menmore like maybe more.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
Like, oh my god, it's.

Speaker 5 (37:57):
Me, Like they're to me, what, But oh my god.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
That has been celebrating because it's true because I really
my intention was to write a book that was about
the history of indigenous, black and brown people people of
color in recovery. And I work so hard to find
such as yourself who really affirmed and really gave me

(38:30):
a rooted, holistic, realistic approach to my recovery because ideas
like outside issues or like the constant policing and monitoring
and like the protection of like you know, the the
legacy that that AA was founded on that I know
people find like very upsetting. I got my first hater,

(38:53):
so she wrote like this long dire tribe on the
conservative blog and me and my partner got a real
kick out of everything that she wrote. And from Harvard,
you know, it's just it's not going to work, like
unless we can bring all of ourselves into the room

(39:13):
unless we can acknowledge what is actually going on, like
the reality of the matter. And so when I came
into the room, I had the same experience that I
was having at my school in the place where I
grew up my work, where you like, no, that's not happening,
and like you know that it's true. But recovery was

(39:35):
the only thing where I was like, no, no, no,
this is too important, like I can't, like I'm not
going to let you get away with this, like not,
you're not now, because this is literally my life because
I did have a near death experience that brought me
into the rooms, and the stranger saved my life. I
was was blackout, and I guess I was trying to

(39:55):
get home. I know I was trying to get home
because I was in a taxi, but I was being terrible.
I was being awful, and essentially the taxi driver kicked
me out in the middle of the West Side Highway.
The West Side high was a multiple lane highway on
the West side of New York and people to be like,
it's nothing of you not want to be call out there,
And this woman was sitting on the steps of the

(40:18):
museum and she sees a woman kind of spill out
of a car with all her shit. Kind I had
very high heels on and I was trying to like
scale cinder block road blocks, and she literally ran out
and pulled me to safety, and she tried to get
my name and my phone number, and she got my

(40:39):
name and she called me another mob from my phone,
and then that uber came back, she said, about fifteen
minutes later, and said I was being awful unbearable again,
and so he dropped me off somewhere downtown. And so
she didn't know what had happened to me. She kept
googling my name. Eventually she found my social media. She
reached out to me and you told me what had happened,

(41:01):
and nayah, I just it's hearing the most unbelievable story
about yourself simultaneously like knowing in your bones that it's true.
I was like, you know, it was definitely an out

(41:23):
of body like you know, I remember it was like
the middle of the summer. I felt like so cold,
like just shivering cold. I knew, you know, this was
something that I couldn't run from anymore. I couldn't, you know,
blame on anything else. Like I just always felt like, oh, well,
when I break up with my boyfriend, you know, it's him.

(41:46):
When I get a better job, it's him. Or like
I can't pay my rent, I'm stressed, or I can't
pay my student loans. Oh my god, Like it was
everything else, right, it was everything else. And but my
substance used to sort of was keeping me on a
hamster wheel as well. I wasn't going to be able
to be in any type of position to take care

(42:07):
of the things that I needed to unless I stopped,
I stopped using the way that I was.

Speaker 5 (42:15):
But yeah, I was incredibly shocking.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
I went to my therapist and I read this woman's testimony. Essentially,
I was like, look, I'm gonna I'm not gonna say
anything to you. I don't want to be an absent
to like make something up or manipulate you, and anyways,
I'm gonna read you this and I won't want you
to tell me at the end yes or no.

Speaker 5 (42:37):
And I read it.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
To her and she was like, I was just like,
is this true? Like am I an alcoholic like mine?
Added route and she was like, the definition is a
manage it? Forwardy? And I think your death is unmanageable, and.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Your death is unmanageable.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
It is unmanageable. And so I am never like we're criers,
but I have never read like that. Thing that hurt
me the most was the idea of telling my parents.
That was the first thing that hit me, and the
idea of going out into the world everything that I
was trying to do to maintain this image of myself.

(43:15):
I'm being seen for what I really was, you know,
which was a mess.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
And and well, just click deeper into that, Jessica, because
I think this is like the heart and soul of
the email you sent me. And I'm not all the
way through your book, but it's the heart and soul
that I'm getting as I get through.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Is that.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Letting the world see you for what you really are
quote a mess. But the rest of that sentence I
think is up against the American dream of being the exceptional.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
Yes not white, Like how how I was like how
you know I've been doing everything right, you know, like
I was very much my father and that mom. And
as much as I can observe, you know, him feeling
that way about his electricity bill, you know, I'm believing
that the cost is a conspiracy, which is it's just

(44:10):
not the one that he thinks, you know, like you're
you're on the right track, But I didn't see the
whole chess board, you know what I mean. I wasn't
bringing in the systemic And that's what I hate about
a lot of the conversations that we have around recovery
is that it's always about like elevating someone in their

(44:31):
recovery and their abstinence, like yes, and then like we're like,
you know, like, oh my god, the descent, oh my god,
the rock bottom is like cost and we never bring
in the systemic role. We don't see it as like
collective issue. We really separate, you know, the tendency that
repetitive behavior with like food, work, phone, I have a

(44:54):
totally addictive relationship with my phone, with social media rivals,
anything I was doing with substances. What I wanted to
like contextualize too in my book is that very real truth.
You know that my mom struggled with food her whole life.

(45:16):
My father has a very sort of paranoid relationship with
the truth that doesn't allow him to just be fully
here in the present moment. And like issues like patriarchy,
gender based violence, white supremacy were the you know, dictating

(45:37):
principles of our lives, and we were taking all of
that upon ourselves. There was no humanity to offer one
another because we were replicating the ideas that we had internalized,
not because we're ignorant, we're stupid, or we're insensitive to
one another, because those are the stories, Like it was
a Katies in the nineties. It was like Reagan's off

(46:00):
Nixons the bushes, like these were the stories. It was there.
It was just saying no, it was egg on the
caster and like random celebrities and very scary, spooky stories.
And then an uncle who was kind of a you know,
an angry, violent sort of person who I observed using

(46:22):
drugs one day. And then I'm seeing this you know,
national message by the president, you know, with this like
like shocky block of what he called crack cocaine.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I wasn't.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
And then he's talking about the Andean region, which is,
you know, where my father comes from. All of these
messages getting realized. Meanwhile, I'm getting the commentary, the questions
at school that as a child I cannot answer. I
bring them to my family. They're just very defensive. They're scared,
They're full of fear, so it is more and more isolating. Luckily,

(46:57):
I had sisters and we were able to kind of
figure some things out together. And I, like I said,
I had talk sisters, you would really like to devent me,
like you know, and when they left, you know, over
the years, I think that did make me more vulnerable,
but it also led me to deeply believe that I
couldn't take care of myself, that I wasn't enough for myself,

(47:19):
that I always needed the protection of you know, my
sisters or a partner. I just wasn't enough for anything.
But like I said, I was trying to fulfill this
American dream. I was trying to write the wrongs in
my family and you know, heal the wounds of our past.
And I wasn't understanding how they were very much alive

(47:42):
in me presently and how they were being perpetuated and
how to even learn how to try to interrupt them.
So that's definitely where recovery led me. So I always say,
if the American Dream was my gateway, recovery was the
opening the pathway to liberation, right, And I think that

(48:03):
that's what you know, the history of all the black
Brown Indigenous people and our legacy of recovery really showed us.
But I think one of the beautiful things it's like
they really didn't separate addiction. You know, whiskey. Take for example,
we're going to like Canton Lake and the indigenous history.

(48:24):
It wasn't as if whiskey was separated from gambling or
you know, the violence that was occurring among families, or
you know, the giving, the loss and the land theft,
And it was really brought under this blanket of like,
we're losing our life ways, we're losing our pride in
ourselves and our tradition, our serum losing and that's how

(48:48):
all these other things are infiltrating. So they were brought together,
and I really tried to. I tried to do that
in my family and and with people at any time,
I can talk about this, like let's bring these things together,
Let's bring them shoulder to shoulder, because the isolation of
you know, the stigma of carrying this. That's why I

(49:11):
tend to use the word addict in that reclamation exercise
because it's so charged for so many people. Like the
first words of my book are I'm a drunk and my.

Speaker 5 (49:25):
Mom hated it.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
I asked her to read it, and like she was
stopped right there. She loves immovable, Like I don't like that, Jesse, Like,
don't say that. She's very you know, the idea of
her she cannot reconcile it. But when we talk and
we talk through it, she sees the lie and that

(49:48):
she sees the injustice of it.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
And just yeah that it's just plainly a lie.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
And that's not what human beings are. Susceptible, perceptible to
our page. We're all Dane. We're trying to manage and
we're given these ridiculous expectations in a world that was
not created across it's entirely unsustainable. But I believed in it,

(50:15):
My family believed in it. I aspired tremendously. And yeah,
as long as there was a two percent, that's six percent,
then what was wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Then what's wrong with you?

Speaker 1 (50:25):
And you know what's wrong with you? Yeah, mathematical probability. Okay,
that's that's what's wrong. Like when it's two percent, that
means ninety eight, that means the quote normal person right
right is going to suffer and the two percent are

(50:46):
also suffering.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Yes, Like let's just be real about that, right, like
the two percent are also suffering. Okay, listen, Jesse.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Oh look, I don't even know you like that, And
you say your mama called you Jesse, And then I
was like, hey girl.

Speaker 5 (50:59):
I'd love it.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
I'm bleshing, please call me.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
I would love This hour is gone And I cannot
believe this hour is gone.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Because we could just keep talking.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
And I wanted to say, for everybody who's listening, even
though you didn't hear a lot of Jada's voice, I
saw the tears. I saw the head nuds. Oh yeah,
I saw so just like do you wanna okay, Jessica,
I'm an adoptee. So for simulation, there's a separation from

(51:34):
culture of origin, model minority thingies, right. So I want
to reflect back some things that I heard in your
story around the legacy of trauma. Basically, you know, you
have hereditary mental health struggles, and you have people in

(51:59):
your family, father caretakers who are kind of buying into
a narrative that is not necessarily true, like this paranoia, right,
or perhaps is misplaced. My therapist introduced this framework of
complex PTSD, which has been really helpful. One of the

(52:22):
elements of that is I'm like really paraphrasing this, but basically,
when you have a shitty story in your hairt like
you said that you had, and perhaps that your father had,
and perhaps that your mother had, and like your cousin
or uncle or whatever, and you continue to see that
story affirmed in your life, whether or not it's actually happening.

(52:49):
Every time there is a little bit of a confirmation
and then blatant confirmations. Right that chick at school, that's
like you were an affirmative action whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
You talked about.

Speaker 4 (53:04):
How you know, you wake yourself up at night with
these thoughts of like, how in the world does my
book even exist? This shouldn't be happening, and my curiosity
is around like your experience in your story as yours.
But from an external standpoint, what I see is that

(53:29):
regardless of all of these things like patterns, hereditary things,
these are things that like you could spend a lifetime
trying to disrupt, and it seems as.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Though you have so.

Speaker 4 (53:43):
At some point you had this story and and like
confirmed narrative over and over again that you don't deserve
help or that there isn't help for you. And you
say in your in your book that you needed the
truth to heal. Right, So, like, at what point were
you able to bring your whole self somewhere and be

(54:09):
seen and receive help. Have there been moments Yeah, when
your narrative what has caused, you know, or manifested hyper
independence within you?

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Have there been moments that challenged Yeah?

Speaker 3 (54:27):
I think like whenever you are a human being who's
like push to the limit of what you can endure.
And a lot of that is mental for me because
I will really really hume on myself, like I really have,

(54:49):
and I always pride myself on my you know, pain threshold,
and there's no place that I go harder myself than here.
So it's very hard to get it from out of
my brain and like through my mouth, even though I'm
such a talker. That's probably why I talk so much,
because I'm like, it's okay, right, I'm okay, right, We're okay.

(55:12):
I'm probably trying to talk my way into yeah, affirming
that like branding myself. But I was four and four
years into recovery, and at the beginning I was really
surrendered to it, you know, like I arrived in like
that sort of tornado, like a flurry I sat.

Speaker 5 (55:32):
On the floor.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
I was like, what, like the way these people talk
about this has nothing to do with the way they
talk about it out there, like what the So I
not really liberated me. I was like, hey, I want
like I want what they have quote right, like the
way they always say. And then once that that freedom started,

(55:54):
like the barriers became, you know, the fences started to appear,
you know, because they were always there, the electric fence.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
Right.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
So I started to get to buzz at this place
where I was completely surrendered a which group therapy, and
I did want to just like come for I was like, well,
I don't have anything else, what else you know, like
you know, I am breaking the rules like these are
traditions like this kind of shit. And then I was

(56:25):
like hell no, Like it's there are so many contradictions
in that, because if you're telling me that to like
to betray myself is to not stand in my truth,
like I know, I'm not harming anyone with my truth.
I'm not.

Speaker 5 (56:43):
And if I don't chow up in my truth.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
Then that's like a relapse, and that's that's getting me
down a road that's dangerous for me. You're also asking.

Speaker 5 (56:52):
Me to come in and.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
Leave all the parts of myself that I need in here.
I need to heal in here, and not just like
I need to acknowledge, I need you to say yes,
which is like what listening to Nia Zinga's podcast in
that moment and finding that did for me. Right, So

(57:14):
it's not like I could ask Niazinga like I'm right right,
but I could hear it, you know, and I could
read it in this book and I could know that
I'm babalidated in that. And then there was the speaking
up and so like I kind of sounded off in
my group, and I kind of said, like there's no

(57:35):
way that any of us can stay sober and ignore
what is going on outside our yours. We cannot do that.
It's just like that, that's not the definition of sobriety.
And you're harming me, You're harming the other black people
in this room, harming oppressed people like hello, And so yeah,
I had I stood up, and I knew that that

(57:58):
was going to be terribly you know, almost dangerous for
me because where would I be And we know like
that little seed, that little germ of intoxicution, and that
addiction begins with that isolation that loneliness and I was
very lonely. I was very scared. And my partner is NAP,

(58:19):
which is an Indigenous people and said, well, and while
I was just sort of crying into my brand and
he was like, you know what it's like, there's no
way to white guys invented this ship. He made me
laugh and I feel good, you know, I felt you know,

(58:40):
and we started researching and so yeah, for me, my
partner is like very much a sounding board. It's you know,
it's very much like a moral I just check in
like we're just we very much are in alignment. There
gives me a lot of support. And he can find
anything on the internet or like he's an incredible researcher.

(59:04):
And we found these stories about like Handsome Lake and
Frederick Douglass and the memoir of Cheney Allen and you
know Talxic that Belle Hooks gave and I found n
Zinga's podcast and I felt very free. I felt very affirmed,
and I wrote my own article called the first step

(59:24):
in recovery is to admit you're not powerless over your privilege,
and I.

Speaker 6 (59:29):
Yes, great fear because you know, a people don't play
like there is a deep devotion there with all due respect,
and I had it as well.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
You know, it's definitely felt like I was like defecting,
and I was like, you know, there's a lot of
devotion there, and yeah, I published that, and then the
backlash that I was anticipating actually ended up being such
a swell of support and gratitude, and I started to

(01:00:02):
find people who were creating spaces for Blackbroun Indigenous people
and now that that's my family, and they're called Shine
your Light, and I go there and that's the place
where I feel safe. That's the place where I feel firmed.
I always say, like I'm isolating. I always say I
need help, and I always say the number one thing

(01:00:25):
that I struggle with is I cannot ask for help.
And I struggle to believe that I belong in spaces
with other people that I deserve love. You know, I
just had a long conversation with my partner about you know,
still working on that and believing that I deserve love
and them too. So it's like I really try and

(01:00:49):
stay like wherever. I've just always been like like lows,
I'm just like very deeply interested, so curious about people.
But the way we interact and the way we love
each other. And the one thing that really drove my
desire to sort of show myself to my family and

(01:01:10):
my loved ones was because I knew we weren't loving
each other the way we could, the way we should,
but the way we could, because.

Speaker 7 (01:01:19):
They are all these like toxic, poisonous like means of separation,
not that we were physically severe because we're so bashed,
but in our hearts and through these stories in our minds.
So that's why I said, like the art of narration
is the process of recovery. Our stories will always take in.

(01:01:40):
So this is just one convers one contribution in the
conversation that I have at my group, that I have
with my partner, I have with my nieces and nephews,
you know, just so like I'm not going to like
save the family or enoe like the family, Like I
get a cure recovery for all of time and our family,
and like I don't want to be like put on

(01:02:01):
a pedestal.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
And that's what I noticed too, Like it was such
a way of my family to be Like I meet
a Ka Kahlina Michra, like she just doesn't drink anymore,
and she's so gratually. It was like it was like Saints,
could you know? And I was like, no, no, no,
we cannot do that. And I lost two cousins in
that process. Like I launched my book in New York

(01:02:24):
City on the one year anniversary of my cousin's death
thirty nine years old, well almost the same aged cirrhosis.
He was drinking courtzabaka a day to survive being here
and not being loved and not just the road of

(01:02:44):
life that men like my cousin are given. And I
dedicated a night to him, and I said, my uncle's
response just really hurt me because we were on his
deathbed beside people that are twice three times my cousin's.

Speaker 5 (01:03:05):
Age, and he's like, oh no, I saw.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
He was like, you know, that's a circle of life.
It's natural. And it's like I refuse to believe that
you know, like you all know better than anyone, that
these deaths are preventable. That you know, we're experiencing this
great decline in fatal overdose, but among our communities and
ethnically and racially minoritized, minoritized groups, they're on the rise.

(01:03:33):
And we just don't talk about it, you know, and
no one wants to look at that and look at
those numbers and interrogate that further. And then there's a
fear in our community where it's like, oh, are we
confirming this bias? Are we saying this is.

Speaker 5 (01:03:46):
True about us?

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
So we don't. We're never given the access to the
to the full spectrum of our humanity. And so all
I wanted to say was, I know you're going to
pick up this book, and that's why I'm in my
in my group. You know. That's where I really got
that out. And I was able to take that practice
into my family relationships, into my relationship with my partner,

(01:04:09):
and into my work just to say, like, I know
you're here for this, and it's only fair to tell
you that I didn't that sometimes we have all this
pain and trauma and we can't be resilient over it,
and we can't overcome you know, I didn't overcome like

(01:04:29):
my parents' history and you know, times of housing insecurity
and almost us and rape and and and just like
overcome it all and bootstrap my way into the IVY
League and then become the editor of the newspaper and
then become this great writer, you know, on our way
to full surprise. I didn't. I caved. I bent like

(01:04:51):
not just to my knees, but like lower to the bottom.
And it was that weight that pushed me down there.
Maybe I could have just been standing up or crawling it.
Sometimes sometimes we're.

Speaker 5 (01:05:04):
Just crawling through life, right, And that's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
So I want us to just be more accustomed because
if so few of us, and like you said, is
zinga two percent six percent, you're suffering too. Like this
system affects us all. We're hurt, we're harm, We're watching
a genocide playout. We're watching deep, deep harm in Sudan
and Kongo around the world, and Alstine and Lebanon in

(01:05:27):
my country is of origin constantly and it's very painful.
But part of that is to know that we're connected
to all of this, that the pain and the suffering
is is all of us together, and I think that's
the only thing that will inspire us to to change. Sure,
I can have compassion for someone, I can see, oh

(01:05:48):
my god, you're going through great suffering, But can I
know that that suffering belongs to me, that I have
a role in it, that I have a part and
that's what people need to understand about substance uses. To her,
it's not different. This is our pain. And the reason
it becomes uncomfortable for us is because we don't want
to be reminded of how much thing we are in.

(01:06:08):
And people who you know, need to use drugs outside
in public, that's just very like uncomfortable for us. We
don't want to look at that, you know, don't like
what the hell you know what I mean, Like there's
these horrible responses instead of like holding it and being
like yeah, like yeah, man, like yes, I feel that

(01:06:30):
I want to crawl out of my skin. I want
to escape, but I know that when I when I
do that to try, you know, and ameliorate some of
the ways that I feel that I can very quickly
take me to a place where I can die. And
I right now like I don't want to die. I
don't want to die. I want to be here. So

(01:06:50):
it's just about wanting to speak to that ninety eight percent,
ninety four percent of us, be percent. Yeah, be ourselves
and cellary, our many our imperfections and the ways we
excel and define success for ourselves, and to be really

(01:07:13):
proud of being in recovery, which is a miracle, but
not so it can be like, oh, my cousin died,
he failed and me I survived on it. That's right, exactly,
That's not what this is like out of my cousin
and proud that he reminded.

Speaker 5 (01:07:32):
My family of how much pain we were in, and
proud that he tried.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
To survive as best he could.

Speaker 5 (01:07:40):
I do not condone any.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Of the harm that he caused. I understand, but I
put it in context and I understand, like this makes
perfect sense, and it's on all of us, Like his
death is the responsibility of our family and the system.
And as long as my family doesn't understand, you know,

(01:08:03):
the systemic role, and then our role as the people
who surrounded him, whenever we do risk having more and more.
So that all I tell is my I end the
book by talking to my nephew because he's like, what's
the name of your book And I said it was
tirst in the building. He's like, but your last, and
he's because I'm the baby, right, And I was so

(01:08:25):
moved and I was so touched because children have such
a way of getting to the root.

Speaker 5 (01:08:31):
And I just said to him, you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
Know, I hope so.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
And that's it. I hope so. And I know that
they me being honest with them means that if they
feel this way, they know that it's not just like
encurate incarceration, death, deportation, which were the stories that I
had or the example that I had. They can see

(01:08:55):
that someone is recovering and honest and forgive themselves and
loves themselves. And how's a family that does that and
changes the language and changes the way we treat things.
And you know, talk about the neighbor, talk about my
cousin versus me. Yeah, bring it all in And so, yeah,
I had to stand up.

Speaker 5 (01:09:17):
I had to stand up to my group in.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
Order to do that, in order to find a place
where I could really bring all of myself. And through
that courage and through the support that they gave me,
I was able to just like kind of stand up,
you know, very publicly and do it. And then I was,
you know, paid back with so much love and support
and gratitude. So I'm just about sharing that over and

(01:09:43):
over and over again and honoring my family's legacy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
I love it so.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
In preparation for a podcast that I'm going to be
a guest on one of the questions was what do
you hope for recovery for the future or something like that,
and I said, my hope is that we can value
the innate humanity of people who are in the midst
of their struggle the way we value it for people

(01:10:11):
who have found their path to recovery.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
Yes, and so I think that's the story of your cousin.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
So can you tell us your cousin's name, Hans Hans. Yeah,
So I think this episode is for Hans and for everyone.
I loved what you said, which is who tried and
who struggled, and who fought, and even though they're not

(01:10:41):
with us, it doesn't mean that they didn't win.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
It means that the system is killing people. And so
do we.

Speaker 8 (01:10:49):
Have the curiosity and the courage and the compassion of
that woman that walked out on the West Side?

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
I got you. Yeah, clear, So that's that's what I
hope for.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
And I think the way you just so honestly beautifully
share your family stories and your book gets us closer
to that hope.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Thank you so much, this is such an honor.

Speaker 4 (01:11:16):
Thank you, Jessica. Do you want to tell people?

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Yeah, what's going on? How to connect?

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
I don't think it'll go up this week, but I'm
having a few events. I'm going to speak with the
Stigma the Anti Stigma Project next week. I'm going to
be in Rhode Island. At the end of the month,
I'm going to be speaking at Columbia University. I'm going
to the Portland Book Festival and the Texas Book Festival.
I'm are gonna go to Houston, to my city of

(01:11:44):
birth that I don't remember because I was a baby,
San Antonio, Texas. I'm very excited. I'm going to be
doing a lot of things online and yeah, you're gonna
just see so much more for me, which you can
keep up. I post everything on my social media basically,
so I have my account, which i'd love for you
to follow because I would love to step out of

(01:12:06):
Nuava Yorca identity. But I'm always at Noaa Yorca, which
is just the Spanish spelling of New York with an
A at the end Uawa Yorca. And then I'm at
Jessica Hoppy Author and then that's my website to Jessica
hoppyauthor dot com. I'll be on the road, so I
hope to see you all there and the Zinga.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
In New York in New Way About YORKA.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
That's thank you so much for tuning in, And if
you like this episode, please check out my book on Addiction,
Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, Available
at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, dot Org, Union Scoring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you.

(01:12:50):
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you you've had about addiction.
Send us a voicemail at speak pipe dot com, slash
you a pod that's speak pipe dot com, slash u

(01:13:12):
a pod

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Host

Dr. Nzinga Harrison, MD

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 22: Jessica Hoppe (First In the Family)