November 12, 2024 • 43 mins
This week, Gregory Gourdet (James Beard winner; Top Chef), Chef and Founder of Kann and Sousòl (Portland, OR) joined us to talk about his nine years of active addiction, the seed of recovery that was planted by a sous chef half his age, Black excellence, a Haitian immigrant experience, and SO MUCH MORE. This episode highlights the resources available to F&B industry professionals. If that's you and you're interested in making some changes around your drug or alcohol use, please visit https://www.bensfriendshope.com/meetings/.
In this episode:
- Active addiction, Gregory's first steps
- A first-generation Haitian chef hits rock bottom and moves across the country after a two-year struggle to get sober
- A model for parents who wonder how to support their child through addiction
- Generational trends of substance use
- The contribution of Black excellence and the immigrant experience to substance use disorder
- Chef Gourdet's magic formula
- What is Ben's Friends
Watch Chef Gregory's Ted Talk: https://youtu.be/Ph9SRFCH09g?si=034iHRRgZGsU3yrv
Check out Ben's Friends for sobriety resources in the F+B industry: https://www.bensfriendshope.com/meetings/
___
📞Send us a voicemail! If you are black or brown and want to share how Un-Addiction has impacted your life, leave us a message at: https://www.speakpipe.com/UAPod
📖Dr. Nzinga Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is out now! Order here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/
📱Find Nzinga on Threads and X (Twitter): @nzingamd / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzingaharrisonmd/
📧Follow us on IG @unaddictionpod. If you'd like to watch our interviews, you can catch us on YouTube @unaddictionpod. Questions, suggestions, and anything else? Email us at: unaddictionpod@gmail.com
💜If you or a loved one are experiencing addiction, have questions about recovery, or need treatment tailored to you, visit eleanorhealth.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor Zga Harrison, and in season four of Unaddictioned podcast,
we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their journeys through
the unique barriers to recovery shaped.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By their identities.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too. Today I
was honored to speak with James Beard Award winner Chef
Gregory Gorday. Chef Gregory gave us a detailed timeline of
(00:40):
his nine years in active addiction while he was trying
to establish himself in the food and beverage industry. It
was at work in a roch infested kitchen in Portland, Oregon,
where Chef Gregory first considered the possibility of recovery. This
was after his sioux chef mentioned that he had two years.
(01:00):
We uncovered conversations around black excellence, the pressures of the
immigrant experience, and the importance of sharing your truth with
substance use and recovery. Chef Gregory is an active member
of Ben's Friends, which provides a sober community to hospitality
workers who are struggling with substance use and addiction across
(01:22):
the US. And with that said, if you have a
truth to share about your addiction or recovery journey, we
would love to hear from you. Send us an email
or voicemail. You can find our email address and our
phone number in the episode notes. Okay, welcome to the
un Addiction Podcast. We have been trying to get this
(01:43):
going for a long time, so I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
For making it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Oh thanks, thanks for having me, And I'll just clue.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
The listeners in, like listen. We just had twenty minutes
of tech problems. But neither me, nor Chef nor Jada
agreed to be defeated by technology.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
This morning, so weird here.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, I'll give you a short intro. I'm doctor Anthon Harrison.
I'm a psychiatrist. I specialize in caring for people that
have addiction. I recently wrote a book recently, meaning January
twenty twenty four, so soon I'll have to stop saying recently.
But it's called an Addiction, and it's laying out a
new framework for understanding what our risk factors for addiction are.
(02:25):
And really the subtitle is six mind changing Conversations that
Could Save a life. And so the point of the
Unaddictioned podcast, which we're currently on is to really talk
to people who have had their own experience with addiction,
who are living their own journey of recovery, and just
hear all of the million different experiences with addiction and
(02:49):
recovery so that maybe somebody listening recognizes a piece of
your experience and says, huh, that feels like what I'm
going through, what I went through, Oh, I want to
try what he's trying.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Just giving people tools. So that's why we're here.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
All right, So can we start with I always ask
this very like I'm a psychiatrist question with letting our
listeners know who is chef Gregory Gorda.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
That's a broad question, I know, right me.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Well, I think, first and foremost, I am a person in.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Recovery and.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I wear that badge very proudly, and it's taking some
time to get there, but here we are. You know,
I'm a very passionate person. I'm a creative, I'm an artist,
I'm an athlete. I am a leader, I am a mentor,
I'm a mentee, a lot of things, and I'm just
(03:52):
very happy to be here on earth and trying to
be the best person I can be and surround myself
with good people and.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
Cooking along the way.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, I love all of that so much because this
is like one of my biggest soapboxes is language militant
and so I you know, I grew up celebrating Kwansa
and the second principle of quansas kuji chagaliya name yourself,
speak for yourself, to find yourself instead of being name
(04:25):
spoken for and defined by others. And so I fully
respect how people refer to themselves, but I never refer
to anybody who has experienced addiction experienced addiction as an addict,
because it gives the idea that that's the only thing. Right,
Like I'm gonna say, tell the listeners who chef Greg
(04:45):
gre Gordat is and you're gonna be like addict, you
were like person and recovery mentor, coach, athlete, passionate leader,
mentee chef, Right, And that's really the truth. It is
one aspect of your life experience, but it is not
the only aspect that is defining. So you mentioned I'm
(05:06):
where this pet bad person in recovery proudly, but it
took me a bit.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
To get there.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Can you talk about the journey to get to out
loud and proud in recovery?
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You know, I mean I think for me, you know,
we unenter recovery because we grow tired of the life
that we're living, you know, the life of lives, the
life of shame.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
You know, the life of getting fired, the life of.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Having to move, you know, not having resources, not having money,
you know, the life of being irresponsible. And we leave
that life in search of something better, but with it
comes a lot of shame.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I was an active addiction for about nine years, so
there it took quite some time to unpack all of that.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You know, I think seven years of that was bad,
and two years of that was very, very bad. It
took two years.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
From rehab to my first true AA meeting to really
finally get sober and start seeing things the right way.
But you know, I'm someone who got sober in AA,
sober from alcohol in AA, and it took some time.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
You know, I made a lot of mistakes. You know,
I hurt a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I missed really important events for my family, and you know,
I often say because I have the life that I
have today and because I'm so driven and motivated and passionate,
because I know that, you know, my life is so
much better in recovery that I don't know if I
would have it any other way. But there are still
things I regret because you know, I missed my sister's wedding,
(06:48):
you know, like I went out the night before. You know,
it's like things like that where you will always regret that.
You know, we have a very strong relationship today, but
at the same time, there are moments where you know.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It takes some time. It definitely takes some time.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
And from the first time you raise your hand in
a meeting and say I am an alcoholic or I
am an addict. You know, I remember that day at
my voice cracked, you know, and it was the first
that I said to that I meant it. And now
I send someone in recovery. You know, I've I'm living
my truth. You know, I'm healthy, I'm happy. You know,
(07:23):
life is still life. You know, life is still not hard.
I still have to make day decisions which affect a
lot of people and affect my future. But I have
clarity now, you know, and I feel like they make
those decisions more honestly.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
So, Yes, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Think speaking publicly about addiction and recovery has been very
very powerful as someone who again got sober in AA,
even though I know that's not the only program or
resource or way to recover. I know a has changed
or is changing, but you know, nominimity and you know
(08:01):
kind of like not really talking so much about the process.
You know, I think being vocal and being loud and
doing things like talking to you right now is extremely
important because this is how we communicate with each other.
And you know, I got sober because I saw a
bunch of sober chefs who are living their life. Was
(08:21):
them who draw me into something. I was like, you know,
you have something that I want and and I think
by us speaking and being vocal and living our truth
and showing that there's a way to live, we can
inspire people to kind of look for the roal to recovery.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, I love it so much, And this is exactly
why we're doing this podcast. Right, Like, I'm gonna double
down on this recent sentence you just said, I got
sober because I saw a lot of chefs sober living
a great life, right, I didn't say it exactly the
way you said it, but it's just kind of like
(09:00):
intor ship, Like if you can see it, you're like,
that could be for me. And the more we stay
quiet about the ability to take the first steps to
the path of recovery and define what an amazing life
looks like for you and have the support and community
and warm arms to wrap around you as you kind
of like go in pursuit of amazing for yourself, Like,
(09:22):
the more people can believe it is for me, because
a lot of active addiction comes with hopelessness, right, like,
like it doesn't feel like things could be any better.
You said you struggled in active addiction. Did you say
for nine years? Seven were bad, two were very bad.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, I was thinking about the timeline, you know, And
you know, I remember the first day I.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Was late for work. You know, the first day I
was late for work, I woke up in a pool
of urine on my friend's couch after telling my boss
I wasn't going out.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
And you know that day, I timestamped that day as
kind of really like the first time, you know, it
all became a problem. The end of my time in
New York was really a very very bad bottom.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
You know, it's meth and.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
That kind of you know, turned into me moving and
leaving and finally entering telling my parents how to cooking
and not call addiction, entering outpation rehab. But again, you know,
being the only person in my friend group or my
family to kind of fall into the perils of addiction,
I really had no kind of close resources or through
(10:42):
understanding of what it meant to be an addict or
what recovery would look like. So, you know, even my
friends were like, you know, you need to go to rehab,
or my employer of being like, you can't work for
unless you go to rehab, and then they're to rehab
and they're like, okay, cool, you're in rehab.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
So you should be able to drink like us now.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Or you're in rehab, you know, so you should stop
doing drugs and you should just drink, you know, And
that's really not how it works. Of course, it's for everyone,
but that's really not how it works. And it took
some time, you know, you know, I left rehab early.
I did not by any means finish rehab, and I
(11:21):
followed up with two arrests. I got a DUI, and
of course I was, you know, forced to go to meetings.
But it took you know, a good year and a
half after leaving rehab and really kind of falling into
a very bad alcohol addiction.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
At the end of it.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
All that I finally moved to Portland, Oregon, and again
I moved.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I took a job.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I got fired within the first few weeks for not
showing up and I took another job at the smaller place,
and you know, I was, I was like feeling bad
on myself.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Was like the place, you know, hot roaches, it was small,
you know.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I was like, you know, like this is reminded me
of like working in New York City at some of
the worst places I've ever worked at.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
But this is where I am in life, unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But one of my first days there, my sous chef
he told me that he hadn't drank in two years.
And that was the first that was one of the
first things he told me, and it was the first
time it clicked to me. I was like, this is
I've I've never met anyone who hasn't drank in two years.
Is incredible, you know.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And that was a very powerful moment.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I tell that story quite a bit, because sometimes when
you hear something, you hear for the first time, even
though it's kind of been buzzing around, so, you know.
And this was a kid that was much younger than me,
much younger than me, half my age, you know. So
he would take me out and we would spend time
with his friends.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
We you know, smoke.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Cigarettes and hang out on the porch, and you know,
that was it, you know, and I would leave them
and I would go to the bar, you know, and
for months and months and months, you know, same pattern,
and then and you know, series of events, you know,
like my bottom of my bottom that was in New
York City, but you know, this is all happening for
the Oregon and I just looked around and for the
(13:09):
first time, I was like, I, you know, my parents,
my friends are having children and buying houses, and I'm
getting drunk at the bar with you know, like young people.
This is not, you know, the life that I want.
And I asked that guy Tom, and his name was Tom.
I was like, Tom, I'm ready take me to an
a meeting room. And that was fifteen and a half
years ago, and I haven't had to look back, which
(13:32):
is very powerful. You know, so you know, you know,
I think some other very impactful life moments, you know,
because I've you know, been on TV, you know, like
and I've had to talk about who I am, you know,
as someone in recovery. You know, like every opportunity had
to be public. They helped me peel a ala or
(13:53):
I did a TED talk on recovery. I was asked
to do a TED talk, and I was like, I
wanted to be a very personal story. So really was
so I don't have to like memorize too much. I
was like, I wanted to be very personal so I
can just kind of talk about myself and not do
a bunch of research.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
And it was an opportunity to again and talk about.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
My recovery and to peel a beaver other layer and
tell people some of the stories I hadn't told anyone publicly,
you know, my deepest, darkest secrets, you know, that lived
in the shadows of my addiction, and that was extremely
powerful and freeing. And through that, you know, people from
(14:30):
all of a country were called me. My friend celebrated
ten years sober just last week, and I remember, I know,
and I remember when he called me.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
You know, I didn't. I wasn't close with him. I
had never given my phone number.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
He called me from across the country and he had
just gotten his fourth DUI and he's like, what do
I do?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
And I was like, you need to go to a
and and he celebrated ten years sober just last week.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
So you know, the power of us talking to each other,
of us, you know, being vocal, being present, being visible
is extremely important.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I felt the power in that moment when you were like,
I'm not in the right place. I'm in this small
restaurant with roaches and it's not right and it was
the right place.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
For that God, for you right. That is so powerful.
So to your point about being visible.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Season four is dedicated to black and brown people and
recovery because, as we were doing seasons one, two, and three,
we're super intentional, like, I want people to see them well,
I guess hear themselves in this podcast, and so we
were being very intentional about trying to get quote all
different kinds of people right to show that quote all
different kinds of people have had addiction and have found
(15:46):
a path to recovery. And what I heard over and
over from our guests that identified as black with like
I didn't see black people in recovery. It was like
I didn't even know this is a thing. And I
rems Phil Rutherford's episode.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
He said.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Someone took him to an AA meeting of black men
and like that was a pivotal moment where he was like, whoa,
this is for me and there are people you know
that like I can have this experience with or just
even just like you said, the message has been buzzing around,
but there's a moment at which you hear it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And so.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
As a black and brown person, do you think there's
anything particularly unique about your recovery experience or about finding
the path to recovery that comes from that part of
your identity?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Think for me, if anything gets inspired me to work
harder on my recovery, you know, I think, you know,
it's it's it's. This is a really interesting and great
question because when we think about black eccel and black success,
you know, recovery is a huge part of that for me,
(17:07):
you know, so it has forced me to work even harder, I.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Think, to achieve the things that I have been able
to achieve.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And you know, like I don't want to be a statistic,
you know, because society wants us to be statistics.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
So for me, you know, you know again to have
parents that are immigrants, immigrants from Haiti, who has you know,
who have had you know, the patient people have a
very bad publicity, you know, like it's been one under
challenging you know, in Haiti.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
But at the same time, you know, media has not
been kind to Haiti.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So to have that parents who worked multiple jobs to
revived from my sister and I and for me to
kind of squander all those opportunities and you know, end
up in this place of addiction, which I inflicted upon
myself through constant drug and alcohol abuse.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
You know. So it really kind of wanted me to
work harder to just be.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
A representation of black excellence, black success because I do
feel that responsibility and I want to show people that
we can't overcome any hardship.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, I love that, and I love this idea because
black excellence and black success hangs over all of us.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Right, we were kind of like out here.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And then the fall from grace if you fall is
even a bigger deal because it exactly, like you said,
an example of what black and brown people cannot be
knowing black and brown people can be all the things
because hello, and so I love this idea of being
able to be so out loud and so proud about
(19:02):
having navigated the experience of addiction and currently navigating the
experience of recovery in a way that is part of
black excellence, right, Like I guess, just like the resilience
through generational trauma, and like you said, they're an additional
(19:23):
You're kind to say the media has not been kind.
That's like a very way to find way to put it,
the way we have treated the narratives and the stories
of people.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
From Adi as a barony, as a baron.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And so I want to go back to this because
I think it's a universal experience and I think it
probably has some unique additional elements for black people and
some unique additional elements for black and brown immigrants to
this country.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Which is telling your parents, right.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So can you talk to talk to us about the
space between deciding I'm going to tell my parents about
this addiction and kind of like what you went through
to the point you actually told them, if this is
not too vulnerable of a question, what it was like after.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
No, I mean for me, God, God, bless my parents.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
They have in support of you know, my entire life,
my entire career, and you know, part of you know,
my my journey now is giving back to them so
they can they'll spend their last twenty years on this earth,
you know, in peace. But you know, it's it's it's
odd because the opportunities that they offered me in pursuit
(20:43):
of education and pursuit of a better life, you know,
expose me to a lot of different things.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
You know, like my father grew up in Haiti with
no running water or electricity.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
You know, I grew up in New York City in
the nineties, you know, at the height of club culture,
you know, at the height of designer drugs.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
So you know, I I went to.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Private school, and you know, and it was kind of
like reverse you know, diversity because I grew up in
a very Caribbean African American Haitian neighborhood and you know,
I was I went to a boarding school in Delaware
and I was only black male in my class.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
You know, so it was a wonderful experience.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
But you know, I started experimenting and you know, I
got suspended it from high school very early sophomore year,
I got to spend for you know, smoking marijuana. You know,
so it was an early start at that. You know,
that trickled over time. And you know, so my parents
are not surprised, you know, like i'd be Mom and Dad,
I need to move back in with you, you know,
like in the middle of working in New York City,
(21:46):
and you know, they just took me in without a
lot of questions or a I don't work there anymore.
You know, they accepted it without a lot of questions.
Can you help me move to hear you know, like
they accept it without many questions. You know, don't call
home for three days, you know, they start asking questions.
You know, Sunday dinner, my mom cooks all day. I
eat and I fall asleep. I'm the couch.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
You know. They think I'm just tired from work, but
there is some suspicion, you know. So it was bubbling.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It was bubbling for quite some time, you know, And
I mean I'm grateful that I was ready to at
least accept that I had an addiction issue when I did,
you know, and even though I didn't.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Understand recovery, I didn't understand rehab. None of my friends did.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
At least I knew that I was an addict and
an alcoholic and I could say that, and I told them,
you know, that was a very very easy decision.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
You know. It was like I was laid forward again.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And my friend and my boss at the time, was like,
you can't work for unless you go to rehab.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
And I was like, you're right, you know, And it
was very easy. Mom and dad, I'm addicted cooking alchol
I need to go to rehab.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I've done my research. I'm going here. So they were
not that surprised.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
You know. And I think, you know, for them, you know, having.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Never done drugs or alcohol and growing up completely and
I have, they also had no understanding of what to do.
They were just supported, so you know, you know, me
moving across the country leaving rehab, you know, they let me,
you know, but they had major concerns, huge concerns, you know.
(23:18):
And in the end of the day, you know, that
same year I got arrested twice, I got a duy
I totable car, you know, But the next year I
got sober, you know, So it worked out and we're
all grateful, and you know, it's it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Because I I.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I always give everyone a second chance because I used
my second chance, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And fourth unlimited chances, you.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Know, yes, yes, yes, I mean yeah, I mean employees
are a little different, but well, I mean.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
But yeah, but I mean, you know, I get it.
You know, it took me two years.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
It took me two years sometimes to get sober, you know,
and so you know, I would consider you know, I.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Don't really have an alcohol.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Relapse in my story since hey hey, but yeah, it
takes people a lot of time.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And you know, this disease gets us in different ways,
you know.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
So you have to be there for people, you have
to be vocal, you have to believe in them. But
also sometimes it's self love. You might have to cut
someone off, you know, like in the sad truth is,
some of us don't recover. You know, a lot of
us don't make it. And it's hard. You know, I
lose people every year to this addiction.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
You know, that's pretty much.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
If anyone my age who is still an active addiction,
I know it's going to be really really hard for them,
you know, because the body cannot do this for thirty years,
you know, for forty years, you know, it cannot cannot,
you know, So.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I want to bolster what you said with a few statistics,
and I want to magnify the beauty of your parents' response.
A lot of times, as parents, it is expected that
we have the answers, right, and you said my parents
didn't know what to do, what they were supportive, Like
that is legitimately all we need, right, like I don't
(25:22):
know what to do, but like, okay, if we need
to help figure this out, like, let us help figure
this out.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
My hope is by having these conversations.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
You also said your parents were not surprised, and so
probably when you came with this i'll call it revelation,
is a sense of relief, right, like we were we
knew it was something, and now we know what it
is and we're supportive, and it's a sense of relief
and let's figure it out. My hope is by having
these conversations that we start this cultural change i'll just
(25:54):
call it here in the US.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
That makes it easier for parents to consider.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Maybe it's addiction, because our red flags go up very
early as parents, but it's very scary to consider the
idea that's maybe it's addiction and put that idea on
the table, and because we don't know what to do right,
so it's like you don't even have to know what
to do. It's just like put the idea on the
table and see if that's the idea. Maybe it plants
(26:23):
a seed. But the statistics I want to drop. You said,
everybody doesn't make it. Seventy five percent of people with
addiction consider themselves in recovery today. Twenty five percent is
a lot, and a big number of those twenty five
percent are not just an active addiction today, like people
are dying, which is why we have to have these
conversations earlier and earlier. It may sound to people like,
(26:46):
oh my god, nine years, seven years bad, two years
really bad. That is literally in the medical literature exactly
the timeframe people start using drugs from the point they
realize I'm struggling. It's usually five years of trying to
(27:07):
stop without telling anybody, and then they get to treatment
and it's usually an additional two.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
To three years.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So like you said, across the country and then leaving
reading early, like when I say, your experience is the
classic experience of a severe addiction, and then by the
time you get to that one year off, we call
it remission in medicine, which is where risk starts to
(27:34):
significantly fall. People have been in the struggle twelve to
fifteen years, right, Like, this is your story, and what
can we do to shorten that five years that people
are struggling alone before they can reach out, to make
it easier to get to get people connected. I think
that's that's what you're doing by using your voice in
(27:55):
this way.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, generationally, I think
I'm not aware of this. Is this maybe you know them,
but generationally, to me, it seems that younger generations are,
you know, using less drugs and.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
There might be less addiction issues.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Although like case in point, I spoke in my high
school graduated from thirty years ago and.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Hey in nineteen ninety four, I just year graduation.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah yeah, that was a couple of week. Yeah, but
one year I was last year, last summer.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Oh okay, Oh yeah, so you're older than me.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Yeah, yeah, one seems like one year.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Okay, I would like to go on the record that
I'm than chef CD recorded.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
I'm just kidding, but yeah, but like you know, they
don't spoke, you know, like they don't drink on campus
and like I was embarrassed to tell them what we
were doing well at the school there, you know, But
at the same time, you know, they're you know, with
penol around.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
You know, it's it's.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Extremely more dangerous these days, you know, for the group
of people who are are experimenting with drugs, you know,
and what is available these days, you know, so it's
like a double edged sword in a way, or you know,
it's like a give and take situation where maybe you know,
broad drug use and experimentation is is a little bit
(29:16):
less with general generations, which is great because they're more
self aware. You know, alcohol consumption is down generally across
many aspects of it, but there is still a lot
of danger that prevails. And you know, I think if
we can just keep talking about these topics and we
know that there are resources out and you know, with
(29:40):
the advent of you know, social media and and just
like more access to things more quickly, you know, I
think we can all realize notes of addiction trends that
might lead to addiction and and have us talking about
these conversations sooner.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
I remember my.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Parents and saw me marijuana is a gateway drug. And
I was like sixteen fourteen, you know, and they're right.
You know, they were right, And so I think we
can have these conversations here, you know, and it's.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Important, you know, Yeah, spot on one.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Jessica Happy's episode just recently came out here on an addiction.
She wrote a book called First in the Family, which
is interesting because that's what she said about yourself, right, yeah,
also is me. Yeah, she also is daughter of immigrant
parents and she oh no, it's so good. Wait, oh yeah,
it's over there. It's over there on the other table.
(30:38):
I'll come show you the the cover of it. But
to your point that you just said, marijuana is the
gateway drug, and it really like I have thought about
her at least three times while you've been talking, because
she said the pressure of American excellence for an immigrant child,
(31:00):
right for the daughter of immigrants, was the gateway drug,
and it was like for her, it was kind of
she started drinking in response to kind of that pressure,
like we were talking about earlier black excellence and the
pressure of being the face and of all the all
the black people, and for her, for all.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Of the the Latina immigrants.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
And when you went to boarding school and you were
the only black man and the whole male, in the
whole school, because you were still a child at that time,
not man, and kind of like, how how all of
that comes into the the risk factors that have you
take that first smoke of marijuana and what it feels
like when you get that first sense of calm, Because
(31:43):
drugs s feel good until they don't. Write like, yeah,
they help until they don't. They take the pressure off
until they don't. But Okay, I'm going to show you
this book cover before we get off of here, but
let's do a little bit of a pivot in our
last minutes here. We have this concept that we introduced
in the book, which is called the magic formula. The
magic formula says there are infinite number of paths to addiction,
(32:07):
so there have to be infinite number of paths to recovery.
And your recovery is yours, and your formula that you're
working to help keep yourself grounded in your definition of
recovery has lots of different pieces that will change over
time depending on what's going on in your life. Some
that will stay stable because they're the core. And so
if you had to think about what is your magic formula,
(32:31):
and we talk about biologically, we talk about psychologically, we
talk about community and culture and health and life meaning
and purpose, and all of this goes.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Into a magic formula.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
What are the things that you're doing intentionally that make
up your magic formula because maybe somebody hears it and says,
you know what, I can put that in my formula.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
You know, for me, I think longevity is something that's
really important to me. And you know, as in someone
as a middle aged person, you know, I you know,
I turn fifty next year. You know, I think being
cautious of my health is extremely important and take care
of my body is extremely important, and just being aware
of the natural aging process, you know, and being able
(33:18):
to kind of like look at you know, five year
stands where you know I felt healthy and strong and
life has been good, or times where I've been, you know,
needing surgery or overweight and life has been very challenging.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
The thing is like once we recover, life does not stop.
Recovery is simply a way for us to deal with
life with a clear head because but all challenges of
life are still there. So for me, I know that
I want to be healthy, I want to be strong,
I want to feel good as I age, and I
want to take care of my body, you know, and
drugs and alcohol in a reckless use don't provide for
(33:57):
any of that, you know.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
I think the seconds just general responsibility. You know. I
have so much to do, and why would I want
to wake up on over? You know.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I know that when I start drinking, I have no
control over how much I drink, you know, and that's
I just don't have time, you know, Like I have
eighty people, I'm responsible for their salary. You know, I
have two beautiful nieces that I need to be around for.
(34:32):
You know, I have aging parents that need me, you know.
So when I look at all I have today and
how integral I am to all these people's lives, and
how much joy they bring to my life, you know,
as an honest person, as someone who's there, someone who
can you know, get on a plane and see them
if I need to, as someone who can you know,
(34:53):
do like a you know, twenty minute FaceTime, and everyone
feels so much stronger and better. All these things are
really really important to me today, you know, more important
than any other kind of late night.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Activity ever made and felt.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
And you know, take some maturity, but I see that,
and I'm super grateful. Yeah, and you know, just being
a leader. You know, it's something that's very important to me,
not because it's something that I want, but because it's
something that allows me to give back and it helps
others and that creates community, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yes, beautiful, beautiful. Okay, So we usually finished. I'm gonna
go grab this book. But while I grab the book,
I'm going to give you the last question.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
You can be right, okay, Okay when I get that.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
So I used to.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I started out four seasons asking everybody this exact question,
and then Flavor. Flav was basically like, I'm not answering
that question, and then I was like I changed the
question because he was right.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So I was like, you're right. Life.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
So the name of the book is unaddictioned, a word
that we made up, and it was like, what stigma
do we what do we want people to unlearn about
addiction that they think they know but it's wrong.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And it's dangerous. What are the stigmas we want to
undo that are killing people?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
And what are the conversations we want to uncover that
we think we can save a life? And Flave said,
I can't answer the first two, He's like, because once
you've done it, it's done.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You can't undo it. And I was like, word, So
I changed the question.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Rather than a behavior to undo, what is a new
behavior that we want and rather than a stigma to
or to something to unlearn? What is something new that
we want to learn? So my question is what is
something you want people to know about addiction?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
What is.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Some stigma you want people to think differently about, or
what is some conversation you want us to be having
that do you think we'll save Blines? Okay, I'm We'll
get the book. I'll be back in thirty seconds.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Okay, am I thinking or my answering?
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Okay, answer before I get back.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
What kind of question is this?
Speaker 1 (37:15):
God? Okay, here's the book, the first in the family
Jessica Happy all right, and the tagline says a story
of survival, recovery and the American dream.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
It is Oh I'm telling you.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, Okay, purchase today.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Okay, Okay, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I mean, I think one of the most important things
is understanding that addiction is a disease and that it
is a brain disease. He's correct me if that has changed,
but and that it takes treatment, and it takes a
lot of work. And it's also a lifelong disease. You know,
(37:55):
it does not go away, it gets managed. So I
think when we talk about disease management, health management, that
becomes a lifelong journey, and a lot of it is
very personal because the person living in that body is
the person that has to manage the cravings, manage dependings,
(38:17):
manage anxiety, manage trauma from the past, you know. So
that takes first self understanding and self awareness and be
that takes community resources. What meetings are you going to
Do you have a you know, therapist that you're talking
to about your addiction related life issues.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
What resources in your network do you have? Are you
surrounded by people in recovery who.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Have the same kind of values and things that they're
working on to feel better?
Speaker 4 (38:50):
You know?
Speaker 6 (38:50):
I think we need to see this as a lifelong
disease that needs constant management management and that takes a
lot of firstal work, and that takes a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Of New York boom, Mike dropped. This is this has
been amazing so much.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, we worked really hard to get here, and I'm
so glad that we got here.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
This has been amazing.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
So much.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
I did just this morning by a Halloween costume for
my cat and it's a chef.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
It's a little chef hat.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
So he's the white cat is going to be a
little chef, and then the black cat.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Is going to be a bet I know, don't.
Speaker 7 (39:42):
Yeah really quickly, Chef Gregory, can you I know that
you are really involved in Ben's Friends. I am curious
if you can just give us the four one one
on Ben's Friends. How people in the industry can find
resources or support if they're seeking to, you know, address
(40:06):
something to do with substances in the food and beverage industry.
And then how people can connect with you, how they
can I don't know, come to either any of your
restaurants or establishments.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Sure so, I am a leader and a local chapter
founder of Ben's Friends. Ben Sprints is a national recovery
group for people in the restaurant industry. So it's a
safe space for people who are chefs, servers, bartenders, wine makers,
anyone in putt in beverage space. And it is not
(40:45):
as structured as some other more traditional recovery programs, but
it is really just a needing safe space to talk
to discuss issues, maybe discuss issues that are specifically restaurant
and strut focused that do pertain to the service of alcohol,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
And we all talk. You know, we meet on Zoom.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
We meet every day at ten am Pacific time on
a PM Eastern time.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
There's also subgroups.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
There's Bench Friends, Women's Excuse Me fems, there's men's meetings.
There's been meetings. We also have kind of topics. So
there are local chapters in many many states around the country,
including Portland, Oregon, Charlotte, Austin, but we also meet nationwide
on Zoom.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
It's actually a global meeting. We have people from all
over the world during that meeting as well, so.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Many many, many people have gone sober just through Ben's
friends and it's a really really safe space, so that's
really wonderful. You know, at my restaurant Con which is
a Haitey restaurant poland Oregon Soul, which is our bar
beneath our restaurant con, we also offer tons of zer
(42:05):
group options so you can enjoy and ivibe.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
That are really good.
Speaker 7 (42:11):
By the way, yes, so good, so artistic. It's not
just like lemonade and tea.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Gets incredible.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Yeah, so you know it's it's great. We have tons
of sober folks who are in our restaurant bar. One
of our bar leads she's actually sober as well, so
you know that that perspective is there.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
So yeah, you can find me anywhere of those places.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Amazing.
Speaker 7 (42:40):
Thank you for listeners. We'll put all of the links
and information in the show notes. I know that you
have to get to you might have to get to
a meeting right now, So thank you.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Gratitude so good.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Okay, thank you so much for tuning in. And if
you like this episo, so please check out my book
An Addiction Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life,
available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
We want to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction.
Send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash uapod
that's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor Zga Harrison, and in season four of Unaddictioned podcast,
we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their journeys through
the unique barriers to recovery shaped.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By their identities.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too. Today I
was honored to speak with James Beard Award winner Chef
Gregory Gorday. Chef Gregory gave us a detailed timeline of
(00:40):
his nine years in active addiction while he was trying
to establish himself in the food and beverage industry. It
was at work in a roch infested kitchen in Portland, Oregon,
where Chef Gregory first considered the possibility of recovery. This
was after his sioux chef mentioned that he had two years.
(01:00):
We uncovered conversations around black excellence, the pressures of the
immigrant experience, and the importance of sharing your truth with
substance use and recovery. Chef Gregory is an active member
of Ben's Friends, which provides a sober community to hospitality
workers who are struggling with substance use and addiction across
(01:22):
the US. And with that said, if you have a
truth to share about your addiction or recovery journey, we
would love to hear from you. Send us an email
or voicemail. You can find our email address and our
phone number in the episode notes. Okay, welcome to the
un Addiction Podcast. We have been trying to get this
(01:43):
going for a long time, so I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
For making it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Oh thanks, thanks for having me, And I'll just clue.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
The listeners in, like listen. We just had twenty minutes
of tech problems. But neither me, nor Chef nor Jada
agreed to be defeated by technology.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
This morning, so weird here.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, I'll give you a short intro. I'm doctor Anthon Harrison.
I'm a psychiatrist. I specialize in caring for people that
have addiction. I recently wrote a book recently, meaning January
twenty twenty four, so soon I'll have to stop saying recently.
But it's called an Addiction, and it's laying out a
new framework for understanding what our risk factors for addiction are.
(02:25):
And really the subtitle is six mind changing Conversations that
Could Save a life. And so the point of the
Unaddictioned podcast, which we're currently on is to really talk
to people who have had their own experience with addiction,
who are living their own journey of recovery, and just
hear all of the million different experiences with addiction and
(02:49):
recovery so that maybe somebody listening recognizes a piece of
your experience and says, huh, that feels like what I'm
going through, what I went through, Oh, I want to
try what he's trying.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Just giving people tools. So that's why we're here.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
All right, So can we start with I always ask
this very like I'm a psychiatrist question with letting our
listeners know who is chef Gregory Gorda.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
That's a broad question, I know, right me.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Well, I think, first and foremost, I am a person in.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Recovery and.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I wear that badge very proudly, and it's taking some
time to get there, but here we are. You know,
I'm a very passionate person. I'm a creative, I'm an artist,
I'm an athlete. I am a leader, I am a mentor,
I'm a mentee, a lot of things, and I'm just
(03:52):
very happy to be here on earth and trying to
be the best person I can be and surround myself
with good people and.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
Cooking along the way.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, I love all of that so much because this
is like one of my biggest soapboxes is language militant
and so I you know, I grew up celebrating Kwansa
and the second principle of quansas kuji chagaliya name yourself,
speak for yourself, to find yourself instead of being name
(04:25):
spoken for and defined by others. And so I fully
respect how people refer to themselves, but I never refer
to anybody who has experienced addiction experienced addiction as an addict,
because it gives the idea that that's the only thing. Right,
Like I'm gonna say, tell the listeners who chef Greg
(04:45):
gre Gordat is and you're gonna be like addict, you
were like person and recovery mentor, coach, athlete, passionate leader,
mentee chef, Right, And that's really the truth. It is
one aspect of your life experience, but it is not
the only aspect that is defining. So you mentioned I'm
(05:06):
where this pet bad person in recovery proudly, but it
took me a bit.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
To get there.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Can you talk about the journey to get to out
loud and proud in recovery?
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You know, I mean I think for me, you know,
we unenter recovery because we grow tired of the life
that we're living, you know, the life of lives, the
life of shame.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
You know, the life of getting fired, the life of.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Having to move, you know, not having resources, not having money,
you know, the life of being irresponsible. And we leave
that life in search of something better, but with it
comes a lot of shame.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I was an active addiction for about nine years, so
there it took quite some time to unpack all of that.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You know, I think seven years of that was bad,
and two years of that was very, very bad. It
took two years.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
From rehab to my first true AA meeting to really
finally get sober and start seeing things the right way.
But you know, I'm someone who got sober in AA,
sober from alcohol in AA, and it took some time.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
You know, I made a lot of mistakes. You know,
I hurt a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I missed really important events for my family, and you know,
I often say because I have the life that I
have today and because I'm so driven and motivated and passionate,
because I know that, you know, my life is so
much better in recovery that I don't know if I
would have it any other way. But there are still
things I regret because you know, I missed my sister's wedding,
(06:48):
you know, like I went out the night before. You know,
it's like things like that where you will always regret that.
You know, we have a very strong relationship today, but
at the same time, there are moments where you know.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It takes some time. It definitely takes some time.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
And from the first time you raise your hand in
a meeting and say I am an alcoholic or I
am an addict. You know, I remember that day at
my voice cracked, you know, and it was the first
that I said to that I meant it. And now
I send someone in recovery. You know, I've I'm living
my truth. You know, I'm healthy, I'm happy. You know,
(07:23):
life is still life. You know, life is still not hard.
I still have to make day decisions which affect a
lot of people and affect my future. But I have
clarity now, you know, and I feel like they make
those decisions more honestly.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
So, Yes, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Think speaking publicly about addiction and recovery has been very
very powerful as someone who again got sober in AA,
even though I know that's not the only program or
resource or way to recover. I know a has changed
or is changing, but you know, nominimity and you know
(08:01):
kind of like not really talking so much about the process.
You know, I think being vocal and being loud and
doing things like talking to you right now is extremely
important because this is how we communicate with each other.
And you know, I got sober because I saw a
bunch of sober chefs who are living their life. Was
(08:21):
them who draw me into something. I was like, you know,
you have something that I want and and I think
by us speaking and being vocal and living our truth
and showing that there's a way to live, we can
inspire people to kind of look for the roal to recovery.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, I love it so much, And this is exactly
why we're doing this podcast. Right, Like, I'm gonna double
down on this recent sentence you just said, I got
sober because I saw a lot of chefs sober living
a great life, right, I didn't say it exactly the
way you said it, but it's just kind of like
(09:00):
intor ship, Like if you can see it, you're like,
that could be for me. And the more we stay
quiet about the ability to take the first steps to
the path of recovery and define what an amazing life
looks like for you and have the support and community
and warm arms to wrap around you as you kind
of like go in pursuit of amazing for yourself, Like,
(09:22):
the more people can believe it is for me, because
a lot of active addiction comes with hopelessness, right, like,
like it doesn't feel like things could be any better.
You said you struggled in active addiction. Did you say
for nine years? Seven were bad, two were very bad.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, I was thinking about the timeline, you know, And
you know, I remember the first day I.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Was late for work. You know, the first day I
was late for work, I woke up in a pool
of urine on my friend's couch after telling my boss
I wasn't going out.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
And you know that day, I timestamped that day as
kind of really like the first time, you know, it
all became a problem. The end of my time in
New York was really a very very bad bottom.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
You know, it's meth and.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
That kind of you know, turned into me moving and
leaving and finally entering telling my parents how to cooking
and not call addiction, entering outpation rehab. But again, you know,
being the only person in my friend group or my
family to kind of fall into the perils of addiction,
I really had no kind of close resources or through
(10:42):
understanding of what it meant to be an addict or
what recovery would look like. So, you know, even my
friends were like, you know, you need to go to rehab,
or my employer of being like, you can't work for
unless you go to rehab, and then they're to rehab
and they're like, okay, cool, you're in rehab.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
So you should be able to drink like us now.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Or you're in rehab, you know, so you should stop
doing drugs and you should just drink, you know, And
that's really not how it works. Of course, it's for everyone,
but that's really not how it works. And it took
some time, you know, you know, I left rehab early.
I did not by any means finish rehab, and I
(11:21):
followed up with two arrests. I got a DUI, and
of course I was, you know, forced to go to meetings.
But it took you know, a good year and a
half after leaving rehab and really kind of falling into
a very bad alcohol addiction.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
At the end of it.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
All that I finally moved to Portland, Oregon, and again
I moved.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I took a job.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I got fired within the first few weeks for not
showing up and I took another job at the smaller place,
and you know, I was, I was like feeling bad
on myself.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Was like the place, you know, hot roaches, it was small,
you know.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I was like, you know, like this is reminded me
of like working in New York City at some of
the worst places I've ever worked at.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
But this is where I am in life, unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But one of my first days there, my sous chef
he told me that he hadn't drank in two years.
And that was the first that was one of the
first things he told me, and it was the first
time it clicked to me. I was like, this is
I've I've never met anyone who hasn't drank in two years.
Is incredible, you know.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And that was a very powerful moment.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I tell that story quite a bit, because sometimes when
you hear something, you hear for the first time, even
though it's kind of been buzzing around, so, you know.
And this was a kid that was much younger than me,
much younger than me, half my age, you know. So
he would take me out and we would spend time
with his friends.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
We you know, smoke.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Cigarettes and hang out on the porch, and you know,
that was it, you know, and I would leave them
and I would go to the bar, you know, and
for months and months and months, you know, same pattern,
and then and you know, series of events, you know,
like my bottom of my bottom that was in New
York City, but you know, this is all happening for
the Oregon and I just looked around and for the
(13:09):
first time, I was like, I, you know, my parents,
my friends are having children and buying houses, and I'm
getting drunk at the bar with you know, like young people.
This is not, you know, the life that I want.
And I asked that guy Tom, and his name was Tom.
I was like, Tom, I'm ready take me to an
a meeting room. And that was fifteen and a half
years ago, and I haven't had to look back, which
(13:32):
is very powerful. You know, so you know, you know,
I think some other very impactful life moments, you know,
because I've you know, been on TV, you know, like
and I've had to talk about who I am, you know,
as someone in recovery. You know, like every opportunity had
to be public. They helped me peel a ala or
(13:53):
I did a TED talk on recovery. I was asked
to do a TED talk, and I was like, I
wanted to be a very personal story. So really was
so I don't have to like memorize too much. I
was like, I wanted to be very personal so I
can just kind of talk about myself and not do
a bunch of research.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
And it was an opportunity to again and talk about.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
My recovery and to peel a beaver other layer and
tell people some of the stories I hadn't told anyone publicly,
you know, my deepest, darkest secrets, you know, that lived
in the shadows of my addiction, and that was extremely
powerful and freeing. And through that, you know, people from
(14:30):
all of a country were called me. My friend celebrated
ten years sober just last week, and I remember, I know,
and I remember when he called me.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
You know, I didn't. I wasn't close with him. I
had never given my phone number.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
He called me from across the country and he had
just gotten his fourth DUI and he's like, what do
I do?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
And I was like, you need to go to a
and and he celebrated ten years sober just last week.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
So you know, the power of us talking to each other,
of us, you know, being vocal, being present, being visible
is extremely important.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I felt the power in that moment when you were like,
I'm not in the right place. I'm in this small
restaurant with roaches and it's not right and it was
the right place.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
For that God, for you right. That is so powerful.
So to your point about being visible.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Season four is dedicated to black and brown people and
recovery because, as we were doing seasons one, two, and three,
we're super intentional, like, I want people to see them well,
I guess hear themselves in this podcast, and so we
were being very intentional about trying to get quote all
different kinds of people right to show that quote all
different kinds of people have had addiction and have found
(15:46):
a path to recovery. And what I heard over and
over from our guests that identified as black with like
I didn't see black people in recovery. It was like
I didn't even know this is a thing. And I
rems Phil Rutherford's episode.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
He said.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Someone took him to an AA meeting of black men
and like that was a pivotal moment where he was like, whoa,
this is for me and there are people you know
that like I can have this experience with or just
even just like you said, the message has been buzzing around,
but there's a moment at which you hear it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And so.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
As a black and brown person, do you think there's
anything particularly unique about your recovery experience or about finding
the path to recovery that comes from that part of
your identity?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Think for me, if anything gets inspired me to work
harder on my recovery, you know, I think, you know,
it's it's it's. This is a really interesting and great
question because when we think about black eccel and black success,
you know, recovery is a huge part of that for me,
(17:07):
you know, so it has forced me to work even harder, I.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Think, to achieve the things that I have been able
to achieve.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And you know, like I don't want to be a statistic,
you know, because society wants us to be statistics.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
So for me, you know, you know again to have
parents that are immigrants, immigrants from Haiti, who has you know,
who have had you know, the patient people have a
very bad publicity, you know, like it's been one under
challenging you know, in Haiti.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
But at the same time, you know, media has not
been kind to Haiti.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So to have that parents who worked multiple jobs to
revived from my sister and I and for me to
kind of squander all those opportunities and you know, end
up in this place of addiction, which I inflicted upon
myself through constant drug and alcohol abuse.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
You know. So it really kind of wanted me to
work harder to just be.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
A representation of black excellence, black success because I do
feel that responsibility and I want to show people that
we can't overcome any hardship.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, I love that, and I love this idea because
black excellence and black success hangs over all of us.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Right, we were kind of like out here.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And then the fall from grace if you fall is
even a bigger deal because it exactly, like you said,
an example of what black and brown people cannot be
knowing black and brown people can be all the things
because hello, and so I love this idea of being
able to be so out loud and so proud about
(19:02):
having navigated the experience of addiction and currently navigating the
experience of recovery in a way that is part of
black excellence, right, Like I guess, just like the resilience
through generational trauma, and like you said, they're an additional
(19:23):
You're kind to say the media has not been kind.
That's like a very way to find way to put it,
the way we have treated the narratives and the stories
of people.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
From Adi as a barony, as a baron.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And so I want to go back to this because
I think it's a universal experience and I think it
probably has some unique additional elements for black people and
some unique additional elements for black and brown immigrants to
this country.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Which is telling your parents, right.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So can you talk to talk to us about the
space between deciding I'm going to tell my parents about
this addiction and kind of like what you went through
to the point you actually told them, if this is
not too vulnerable of a question, what it was like after.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
No, I mean for me, God, God, bless my parents.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
They have in support of you know, my entire life,
my entire career, and you know, part of you know,
my my journey now is giving back to them so
they can they'll spend their last twenty years on this earth,
you know, in peace. But you know, it's it's it's
odd because the opportunities that they offered me in pursuit
(20:43):
of education and pursuit of a better life, you know,
expose me to a lot of different things.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
You know, like my father grew up in Haiti with
no running water or electricity.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
You know, I grew up in New York City in
the nineties, you know, at the height of club culture,
you know, at the height of designer drugs.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
So you know, I I went to.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Private school, and you know, and it was kind of
like reverse you know, diversity because I grew up in
a very Caribbean African American Haitian neighborhood and you know,
I was I went to a boarding school in Delaware
and I was only black male in my class.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
You know, so it was a wonderful experience.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
But you know, I started experimenting and you know, I
got suspended it from high school very early sophomore year,
I got to spend for you know, smoking marijuana. You know,
so it was an early start at that. You know,
that trickled over time. And you know, so my parents
are not surprised, you know, like i'd be Mom and Dad,
I need to move back in with you, you know,
like in the middle of working in New York City,
(21:46):
and you know, they just took me in without a
lot of questions or a I don't work there anymore.
You know, they accepted it without a lot of questions.
Can you help me move to hear you know, like
they accept it without many questions. You know, don't call
home for three days, you know, they start asking questions.
You know, Sunday dinner, my mom cooks all day. I
eat and I fall asleep. I'm the couch.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
You know. They think I'm just tired from work, but
there is some suspicion, you know. So it was bubbling.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It was bubbling for quite some time, you know, And
I mean I'm grateful that I was ready to at
least accept that I had an addiction issue when I did,
you know, and even though I didn't.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Understand recovery, I didn't understand rehab. None of my friends did.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
At least I knew that I was an addict and
an alcoholic and I could say that, and I told them,
you know, that was a very very easy decision.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
You know. It was like I was laid forward again.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And my friend and my boss at the time, was like,
you can't work for unless you go to rehab.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
And I was like, you're right, you know, And it
was very easy. Mom and dad, I'm addicted cooking alchol
I need to go to rehab.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I've done my research. I'm going here. So they were
not that surprised.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
You know. And I think, you know, for them, you know, having.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Never done drugs or alcohol and growing up completely and
I have, they also had no understanding of what to do.
They were just supported, so you know, you know, me
moving across the country leaving rehab, you know, they let me,
you know, but they had major concerns, huge concerns, you know.
(23:18):
And in the end of the day, you know, that
same year I got arrested twice, I got a duy
I totable car, you know, But the next year I
got sober, you know, So it worked out and we're
all grateful, and you know, it's it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Because I I.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I always give everyone a second chance because I used
my second chance, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And fourth unlimited chances, you.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Know, yes, yes, yes, I mean yeah, I mean employees
are a little different, but well, I mean.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
But yeah, but I mean, you know, I get it.
You know, it took me two years.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
It took me two years sometimes to get sober, you know,
and so you know, I would consider you know, I.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Don't really have an alcohol.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Relapse in my story since hey hey, but yeah, it
takes people a lot of time.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And you know, this disease gets us in different ways,
you know.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
So you have to be there for people, you have
to be vocal, you have to believe in them. But
also sometimes it's self love. You might have to cut
someone off, you know, like in the sad truth is,
some of us don't recover. You know, a lot of
us don't make it. And it's hard. You know, I
lose people every year to this addiction.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
You know, that's pretty much.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
If anyone my age who is still an active addiction,
I know it's going to be really really hard for them,
you know, because the body cannot do this for thirty years,
you know, for forty years, you know, it cannot cannot,
you know, So.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I want to bolster what you said with a few statistics,
and I want to magnify the beauty of your parents' response.
A lot of times, as parents, it is expected that
we have the answers, right, and you said my parents
didn't know what to do, what they were supportive, Like
that is legitimately all we need, right, like I don't
(25:22):
know what to do, but like, okay, if we need
to help figure this out, like, let us help figure
this out.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
My hope is by having these conversations.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
You also said your parents were not surprised, and so
probably when you came with this i'll call it revelation,
is a sense of relief, right, like we were we
knew it was something, and now we know what it
is and we're supportive, and it's a sense of relief
and let's figure it out. My hope is by having
these conversations that we start this cultural change i'll just
(25:54):
call it here in the US.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
That makes it easier for parents to consider.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Maybe it's addiction, because our red flags go up very
early as parents, but it's very scary to consider the
idea that's maybe it's addiction and put that idea on
the table, and because we don't know what to do right,
so it's like you don't even have to know what
to do. It's just like put the idea on the
table and see if that's the idea. Maybe it plants
(26:23):
a seed. But the statistics I want to drop. You said,
everybody doesn't make it. Seventy five percent of people with
addiction consider themselves in recovery today. Twenty five percent is
a lot, and a big number of those twenty five
percent are not just an active addiction today, like people
are dying, which is why we have to have these
conversations earlier and earlier. It may sound to people like,
(26:46):
oh my god, nine years, seven years bad, two years
really bad. That is literally in the medical literature exactly
the timeframe people start using drugs from the point they
realize I'm struggling. It's usually five years of trying to
(27:07):
stop without telling anybody, and then they get to treatment
and it's usually an additional two.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
To three years.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So like you said, across the country and then leaving
reading early, like when I say, your experience is the
classic experience of a severe addiction, and then by the
time you get to that one year off, we call
it remission in medicine, which is where risk starts to
(27:34):
significantly fall. People have been in the struggle twelve to
fifteen years, right, Like, this is your story, and what
can we do to shorten that five years that people
are struggling alone before they can reach out, to make
it easier to get to get people connected. I think
that's that's what you're doing by using your voice in
(27:55):
this way.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, generationally, I think
I'm not aware of this. Is this maybe you know them,
but generationally, to me, it seems that younger generations are,
you know, using less drugs and.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
There might be less addiction issues.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Although like case in point, I spoke in my high
school graduated from thirty years ago and.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Hey in nineteen ninety four, I just year graduation.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah yeah, that was a couple of week. Yeah, but
one year I was last year, last summer.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Oh okay, Oh yeah, so you're older than me.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Yeah, yeah, one seems like one year.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Okay, I would like to go on the record that
I'm than chef CD recorded.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
I'm just kidding, but yeah, but like you know, they
don't spoke, you know, like they don't drink on campus
and like I was embarrassed to tell them what we
were doing well at the school there, you know, But
at the same time, you know, they're you know, with
penol around.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
You know, it's it's.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Extremely more dangerous these days, you know, for the group
of people who are are experimenting with drugs, you know,
and what is available these days, you know, so it's
like a double edged sword in a way, or you know,
it's like a give and take situation where maybe you know,
broad drug use and experimentation is is a little bit
(29:16):
less with general generations, which is great because they're more
self aware. You know, alcohol consumption is down generally across
many aspects of it, but there is still a lot
of danger that prevails. And you know, I think if
we can just keep talking about these topics and we
know that there are resources out and you know, with
(29:40):
the advent of you know, social media and and just
like more access to things more quickly, you know, I
think we can all realize notes of addiction trends that
might lead to addiction and and have us talking about
these conversations sooner.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
I remember my.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Parents and saw me marijuana is a gateway drug. And
I was like sixteen fourteen, you know, and they're right.
You know, they were right, And so I think we
can have these conversations here, you know, and it's.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Important, you know, Yeah, spot on one.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Jessica Happy's episode just recently came out here on an addiction.
She wrote a book called First in the Family, which
is interesting because that's what she said about yourself, right, yeah,
also is me. Yeah, she also is daughter of immigrant
parents and she oh no, it's so good. Wait, oh yeah,
it's over there. It's over there on the other table.
(30:38):
I'll come show you the the cover of it. But
to your point that you just said, marijuana is the
gateway drug, and it really like I have thought about
her at least three times while you've been talking, because
she said the pressure of American excellence for an immigrant child,
(31:00):
right for the daughter of immigrants, was the gateway drug,
and it was like for her, it was kind of
she started drinking in response to kind of that pressure,
like we were talking about earlier black excellence and the
pressure of being the face and of all the all
the black people, and for her, for all.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Of the the Latina immigrants.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
And when you went to boarding school and you were
the only black man and the whole male, in the
whole school, because you were still a child at that time,
not man, and kind of like, how how all of
that comes into the the risk factors that have you
take that first smoke of marijuana and what it feels
like when you get that first sense of calm, Because
(31:43):
drugs s feel good until they don't. Write like, yeah,
they help until they don't. They take the pressure off
until they don't. But Okay, I'm going to show you
this book cover before we get off of here, but
let's do a little bit of a pivot in our
last minutes here. We have this concept that we introduced
in the book, which is called the magic formula. The
magic formula says there are infinite number of paths to addiction,
(32:07):
so there have to be infinite number of paths to recovery.
And your recovery is yours, and your formula that you're
working to help keep yourself grounded in your definition of
recovery has lots of different pieces that will change over
time depending on what's going on in your life. Some
that will stay stable because they're the core. And so
if you had to think about what is your magic formula,
(32:31):
and we talk about biologically, we talk about psychologically, we
talk about community and culture and health and life meaning
and purpose, and all of this goes.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Into a magic formula.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
What are the things that you're doing intentionally that make
up your magic formula because maybe somebody hears it and says,
you know what, I can put that in my formula.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
You know, for me, I think longevity is something that's
really important to me. And you know, as in someone
as a middle aged person, you know, I you know,
I turn fifty next year. You know, I think being
cautious of my health is extremely important and take care
of my body is extremely important, and just being aware
of the natural aging process, you know, and being able
(33:18):
to kind of like look at you know, five year
stands where you know I felt healthy and strong and
life has been good, or times where I've been, you know,
needing surgery or overweight and life has been very challenging.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
The thing is like once we recover, life does not stop.
Recovery is simply a way for us to deal with
life with a clear head because but all challenges of
life are still there. So for me, I know that
I want to be healthy, I want to be strong,
I want to feel good as I age, and I
want to take care of my body, you know, and
drugs and alcohol in a reckless use don't provide for
(33:57):
any of that, you know.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
I think the seconds just general responsibility. You know. I
have so much to do, and why would I want
to wake up on over? You know.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I know that when I start drinking, I have no
control over how much I drink, you know, and that's
I just don't have time, you know, Like I have
eighty people, I'm responsible for their salary. You know, I
have two beautiful nieces that I need to be around for.
(34:32):
You know, I have aging parents that need me, you know.
So when I look at all I have today and
how integral I am to all these people's lives, and
how much joy they bring to my life, you know,
as an honest person, as someone who's there, someone who
can you know, get on a plane and see them
if I need to, as someone who can you know,
(34:53):
do like a you know, twenty minute FaceTime, and everyone
feels so much stronger and better. All these things are
really really important to me today, you know, more important
than any other kind of late night.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Activity ever made and felt.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
And you know, take some maturity, but I see that,
and I'm super grateful. Yeah, and you know, just being
a leader. You know, it's something that's very important to me,
not because it's something that I want, but because it's
something that allows me to give back and it helps
others and that creates community, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yes, beautiful, beautiful. Okay, So we usually finished. I'm gonna
go grab this book. But while I grab the book,
I'm going to give you the last question.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
You can be right, okay, Okay when I get that.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
So I used to.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I started out four seasons asking everybody this exact question,
and then Flavor. Flav was basically like, I'm not answering
that question, and then I was like I changed the
question because he was right.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So I was like, you're right. Life.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
So the name of the book is unaddictioned, a word
that we made up, and it was like, what stigma
do we what do we want people to unlearn about
addiction that they think they know but it's wrong.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And it's dangerous. What are the stigmas we want to
undo that are killing people?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
And what are the conversations we want to uncover that
we think we can save a life? And Flave said,
I can't answer the first two, He's like, because once
you've done it, it's done.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You can't undo it. And I was like, word, So
I changed the question.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Rather than a behavior to undo, what is a new
behavior that we want and rather than a stigma to
or to something to unlearn? What is something new that
we want to learn? So my question is what is
something you want people to know about addiction?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
What is.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Some stigma you want people to think differently about, or
what is some conversation you want us to be having
that do you think we'll save Blines? Okay, I'm We'll
get the book. I'll be back in thirty seconds.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Okay, am I thinking or my answering?
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Okay, answer before I get back.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
What kind of question is this?
Speaker 1 (37:15):
God? Okay, here's the book, the first in the family
Jessica Happy all right, and the tagline says a story
of survival, recovery and the American dream.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
It is Oh I'm telling you.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, Okay, purchase today.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Okay, Okay, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I mean, I think one of the most important things
is understanding that addiction is a disease and that it
is a brain disease. He's correct me if that has changed,
but and that it takes treatment, and it takes a
lot of work. And it's also a lifelong disease. You know,
(37:55):
it does not go away, it gets managed. So I
think when we talk about disease management, health management, that
becomes a lifelong journey, and a lot of it is
very personal because the person living in that body is
the person that has to manage the cravings, manage dependings,
(38:17):
manage anxiety, manage trauma from the past, you know. So
that takes first self understanding and self awareness and be
that takes community resources. What meetings are you going to
Do you have a you know, therapist that you're talking
to about your addiction related life issues.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
What resources in your network do you have? Are you
surrounded by people in recovery who.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Have the same kind of values and things that they're
working on to feel better?
Speaker 4 (38:50):
You know?
Speaker 6 (38:50):
I think we need to see this as a lifelong
disease that needs constant management management and that takes a
lot of firstal work, and that takes a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Of New York boom, Mike dropped. This is this has
been amazing so much.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, we worked really hard to get here, and I'm
so glad that we got here.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
This has been amazing.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
So much.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
I did just this morning by a Halloween costume for
my cat and it's a chef.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
It's a little chef hat.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
So he's the white cat is going to be a
little chef, and then the black cat.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Is going to be a bet I know, don't.
Speaker 7 (39:42):
Yeah really quickly, Chef Gregory, can you I know that
you are really involved in Ben's Friends. I am curious
if you can just give us the four one one
on Ben's Friends. How people in the industry can find
resources or support if they're seeking to, you know, address
(40:06):
something to do with substances in the food and beverage industry.
And then how people can connect with you, how they
can I don't know, come to either any of your
restaurants or establishments.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Sure so, I am a leader and a local chapter
founder of Ben's Friends. Ben Sprints is a national recovery
group for people in the restaurant industry. So it's a
safe space for people who are chefs, servers, bartenders, wine makers,
anyone in putt in beverage space. And it is not
(40:45):
as structured as some other more traditional recovery programs, but
it is really just a needing safe space to talk
to discuss issues, maybe discuss issues that are specifically restaurant
and strut focused that do pertain to the service of alcohol,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
And we all talk. You know, we meet on Zoom.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
We meet every day at ten am Pacific time on
a PM Eastern time.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
There's also subgroups.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
There's Bench Friends, Women's Excuse Me fems, there's men's meetings.
There's been meetings. We also have kind of topics. So
there are local chapters in many many states around the country,
including Portland, Oregon, Charlotte, Austin, but we also meet nationwide
on Zoom.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
It's actually a global meeting. We have people from all
over the world during that meeting as well, so.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Many many, many people have gone sober just through Ben's
friends and it's a really really safe space, so that's
really wonderful. You know, at my restaurant Con which is
a Haitey restaurant poland Oregon Soul, which is our bar
beneath our restaurant con, we also offer tons of zer
(42:05):
group options so you can enjoy and ivibe.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
That are really good.
Speaker 7 (42:11):
By the way, yes, so good, so artistic. It's not
just like lemonade and tea.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Gets incredible.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Yeah, so you know it's it's great. We have tons
of sober folks who are in our restaurant bar. One
of our bar leads she's actually sober as well, so
you know that that perspective is there.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
So yeah, you can find me anywhere of those places.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Amazing.
Speaker 7 (42:40):
Thank you for listeners. We'll put all of the links
and information in the show notes. I know that you
have to get to you might have to get to
a meeting right now, So thank you.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Gratitude so good.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Okay, thank you so much for tuning in. And if
you like this episo, so please check out my book
An Addiction Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life,
available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
We want to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction.
Send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash uapod
that's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod
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