November 19, 2024 • 48 mins
This week, our producer - Jada - and Nzinga chat about Jada's recovery experience. As a transnational adoptee with white adopters, Jada's experience as an Asian American includes separation from her family, country, and culture of origin.
In this episode:
- 2020 lockdown impact on mental health
- C-PTSD
- The adoptee experience of not feeling belonging anywhere
- Rave scene
- Religious trauma
- Christian Nationalism
- Jada's magic formula
___
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zana Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By their identities.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We did, and yeah we went to Susoul.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Look at Unaddictioned podcast bringing people together.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I know, I know, I wish you would have been there,
you would have had time. And honestly, Chef Gregory's shit
is poppin'.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yes, you know you need to send him a picture
of you and Jessica in the spot.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I know, y'all.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Look, I mean just the environment looks so amazing. The food,
I was like, I need this food.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah you do for real? Like it's all you know,
like Haiti inspired, So fucking good. How are You's your weekend?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Good?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Let me think, let me see what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Oh yeah, I had zzkk adventure day. So I don't
know if I told you with my nieces for their
birthday every year. What they get isn't adventure Day with
zz I picked them up in the morning, we go
do like fun stuff all day, spend the night in
a hotel, eat breakfast, and then take them home. So
their birthdays are back in April and May. It took
(01:47):
me until this long, dang it. So Kk is fourteen.
She turned fourteen in April. So we had zzkk Adventure
Day on Saturday. So we went to Golden Corral and
stuffed ourselves and then went go karting and sevent y
and virtual reality and laser tag, and then went and
(02:08):
walked around Battery Park and then went to a video
game restaurant and then watched her band videos all night
and stayed in the hotel and then eight Cracker Barrel
and then came home. It was amazing because she's fourteen,
and I was like, okay, tell me all the tea
on everybody at school, and then she was just like
telling me everything.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
It's great.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
What is your What is the number one thing you
look forward to when you go to a buffet?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
The bread?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
The bread?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, first of all, you don't have to be all judgy.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
You asked you asked.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I answered okay, and then you were like judge E
Mcjudgerson because I said the bread, yeah, the buttery, sweet
yeast rolls.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
This response is follow by the salad bar.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Not a judgment on your choices. I just like it
never occurred.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's like.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
I didn't know there was bread at a buffet.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Buffets have like the best fresh baked bad selection.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yes there's more than just rolls usually, but.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
At Golden Corral specifically their rolls and then their uven
baked sweet potatoes and their salad bar.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I love all their vegetables. I eat the meat, but
I mostly go for the rolls. Okay, yeah, now you know.
Now that tells you a bit about me.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Uh and Zuga loves bread.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Everybody ocean to disclose.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
We gotta rose.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
We got a breadhead in the house.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
We didn't plan on this, but it just came out.
Gat Yeah everybody and my family will tell you. And
first of all, I don't even like all you can
eat buffets because I cannot eat a lot, so I
never get my money. It's worth like I can't eat
a lot in one setting. Yeah, I eat multiple times
(04:17):
throughout the day. Smaller portions and so like at a buffet,
I'm always wasting money, but that's fine.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
That one plate, That one plate is good.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
One plate is fine, and then you like feel compelled
to go get some more just because you paid for
all you can eat. Yeah, I'm like this plate, but
I always get a cold plate a hot plate, and.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's my strategy. All right, Well, should we.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Start this episode even though that might be the start
of the episode.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, let's fucking go.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
All right, So, welcome to un addiction I'm super excited
because this is unusual. You've heard Jada, probably only a
couple of times, but Jada's the mastermind behind bringing the
Unaddictioned podcast to you.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
She's our producer.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Mostly off air, and Jada and I would have the
most amazing before and after conversations with each episode, or
if we were taping intros and outros, and I was like, Jada,
your perspective is incredible, and what do you think about
being on air and sharing your story as part of
(05:35):
season four Black and Brown?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
And she was like, hell, yeah, doesn't that sound like you?
That impression it was on? Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, practice practice. So welcome Jada to an addiction as
a guest.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Thank you, this is fun.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Well, why don't we start out the same way we
always start out, except I don't have to tell you
what the podcast is about.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Why don't you tell our listeners? Who is Jada and
what is your recovery experience?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I am. I knew this question is coming, and I've
been literally thinking about it for like three days street
and I think the short answer and long answer is
I am literally figuring it out. So twenty twenty, I
(06:40):
am still I think I would say literally like actively
recovering from those events. It really did a number to
my up here, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
What have been specifically Jada, because lots happened in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, So my experience of that was it felt very
I felt very numb, and partially because it was overwhelming.
I didn't know where to be or how to be.
(07:22):
And that's like, you know, that was like common I
think for everybody. What I felt I saw was people
grasping for something to help them decide how to move forward.
(07:47):
And I think that I did all those things, like
just doing Oh god, it feels so awkward talking about
this because we're like out of it, right, But.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Do you feel like you're out of it. Sounds like
you might still be in it.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Well physically out of it.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So you know, like taking different classes that you would
never that you would never think about, were like being
accessible online. I think I did, like a tap like
a tap.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Class, a tap dancer.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
You know, yeah, I know, I know. It was very hard.
It was so fucking hard, but yeah, you know, it
was like a tie. It was like a vortex and
a vacuum at the same time. It was like on
the one hand, you kind of you had like the
freedom to explore so much, but on the other hand,
(08:55):
it was that freedom was like at the expense of
like other so of like liberties I guess of like traveling,
going outside, having community connections, blah blah blah. So I
did that. I was drinking a shit ton of alcohol there.
I think that was like the most That was like
(09:17):
kind of what I landed on of like this is
how I'm going to move forward. And it wasn't that
was different. No, No, that's what I was about to say.
It was like it was a shit ton, but it
wasn't like a shit ton more than usual. It was
a shit ton in like respect to you know, if
(09:39):
there was like a scale of things that I was
doing in the day, looking after myself or like caring
for myself was like way up here, and you know,
and then like the things that I was engaging in
that just like gave me a one second of escape
(10:02):
were very you know, outweighed pretty much everything else. So
at the time, I was working this job that I
really liked, and there were some things happening and being
said it was a co working space.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Things being said by people not in our company. You know,
it was close to downtown where the George Floyd stuff
was happening, the marches and that those kinds of things.
Asian people were getting fucking beat up, you know, all
of this like the racial sort of like tension, and
(10:49):
these guys were just like saying some like fucking stupid.
It was basically like anti Chinese whatever remarks. I was no,
not at me. I I was like it was like
they were just like standing around talking as you do
(11:12):
in co workspaces and just like shooting the ship. But
it was very triggering, and it was the response or
like my my feeling activated was very was already kind
of like half cocks you know, because of everything that
(11:33):
was going on. Had I been this version of myself
and gone back and had that experience, it would have
been completely different.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I would have happened what happened to the Jada on
that day.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I was like, I have to quit my job because
my bosses are fucking racist. And one of them was
standing there and he didn't say anything. He wasn't like, hey,
that's like a little bit inappropriate. He just kind of
like laughed it off and walked away. And I saw that,
(12:12):
and I was like, oh my god, you're a fucking racist.
I don't think that's the case necessarily, Like my emotional
response did not match the what was going on.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
M h. But at the time, at the time, what
you needed was for him to be an upstander, not
a passive participant. Yes, and so he didn't stand up
in any way, and so that was very injurious. Yes,
And then you feel like, even though that injury is valid,
(12:44):
your reaction was bigger than it, let's say, had to be.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, So I quit my job. And
at first I was like, yes, you know, I was
like feeling so fucking free. This was like spring of
twenty twenty one, and I'm like yes, you know, this
(13:11):
is creating space for something more aligned. And I probably
sent out, you know, between seventy five and one hundred
resumes or applications or whatever and was not getting hired.
And it was I was like, oh my god, I
(13:33):
think I peaked, Like I think I peaked in my life,
and you know, catastrophizing and basically having this narrative of
the absolute worst case scenario, like it makes me emotional
because I was taking on the responsibility of circumstances that were,
(13:56):
you know, outside of my control, and I thought that
I did something wrong That lasted for a while, like
basically up until you and I met that kind of
like period of time.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Where you were.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
In this kind of castastrophic I have done something wrong
type of energy pointed towards yourself, yes, and drinking a
shit ton.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah. I kind of like leveled out a little bit
because I didn't have a job and I couldn't afford it.
It was, you know, I was definitely using it as
a coping mechanism during lockdown and through the pandemic up
(14:49):
to a point and then it kind of I kind
of like leveled out because I was sensing this, you know,
I've always gone through sort of like ebbs and flows
of stuff. So like like when I was like partying
super hard, it would be like party really hard for
a couple of days or whatever, and then like try
(15:11):
to back off or something like that after for like
a couple of days, and then party really hard again
the next weekend. And that lasted for a few years,
maybe like five five ish or six ish maybe, and
then I would have these like spurts of like, uh,
(15:32):
I cannot look at or touch or think about another
thing that I put in my body ever again. And
those times felt like the beginning of something really important
or something I started seeing my current therapist. I moved
out of I moved out of Denver. I lived there
(15:54):
for twenty years. I moved out, and at the time
I was like, I'm just doing something new, but only
in retrospect, I was like absolutely trying to run away
from something because I had just like come to this
point where I felt like everything I touched turned to shit.
So I know that people that we've had on the
(16:19):
podcast have maybe alluded to, you know, this thing of
changing your location or your geography in order to like
have those changes be the changes that you've needed to
fix your life or whatever. I was an absolute denial.
I was like, no, I'm just like I'm over that city,
(16:43):
I'm over that weather, I'm over whatever, like very arbitrary
thing about it. And I really like believed believed that
for a long time. But I started seeing my current
therapist in like March of twenty twenty two, when I
(17:03):
moved out here to Oregon. Within a couple months of
seeing them, I kind of like described, you know why
I was why. I was like seeking support. I was like, look,
my life feels like garbage and I don't know what
to do about it. And we were talking about the
(17:27):
events of twenty twenty and she basically was like, I
think that you. I think that we need to go
down this path of like a CPTSD framework because there
are it sounds like there are events that occurred that
basically like triggered so many things in your childhood.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, so, first of all, tell us what CPTSD framework
is for our listeners who might be connecting to your story.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So far, it's.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Complex PTSD And if whatever, any of these things that
I say are inaccurate, will you correct me?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
But so PTSD would be things like I went to
war or I was sexually assaulted, very big, singular experiences
that cause trauma. CPTSD is more, I'm not gonna say smaller,
but let's say, let's say like less significant through the
(18:35):
lens of our society and culture. Like they are quote
unquote smaller things that happen more frequently over time. Using
myself as an example, my parents, they would spank me,
and then the there was no like repair.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Process.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
So it was like I did something wrong, I would
be hit for it and then and then there would
be no like attunement one of my parents coming over
to me like maybe comforting me or I'm still honestly
like learning what that could have possibly been. But I
(19:19):
do something wrong, I get punished for it, and then
I am expected to like basically pretend like everything is
okay and like keep it moving if there are people
listening who are curious about this CPTSD shit. Stephanie Fu
she used to be a producer on NPR for MPR.
She wrote a memoir called What My Bones Know, and
(19:44):
this is a memoir about her CPTSD experience. Her experiences,
I would say, are categorically just very different. So things
like her parents would threaten to kill her basically over
and over again, or like either verbally or with an
(20:05):
action like overtly like I'm gonna fucking kill you, or
like I think there was one time she got in
a car and with her dad and like he was
driving off fucking crazy, you know, and she didn't know
she was gonna like live. So things that happened continuously
(20:26):
where you start to begin to write this narrative for
yourself beliefs around those actions that happened.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So my.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Mine were like I don't deserve support. It's better if
I am not seen, you know, like being small is
safe and good stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You're really just describing some nothing to correct. The initial
kind of concept that we all call it medical establishment
had of PTSD was exactly what you said, like these
big catastrophic I went to war, I experienced a rape,
I was in a natural disaster. And now SAMSA gives
(21:24):
us a definition of trauma that is the three e's
and the three e's are an event or series of
events that is experienced as harmful and has negative lasting
effects physically, emotionally, psychologically, socially, and so the complex PTSD
(21:49):
framework uses that broader definition of trauma to understand that
we don't get from the outside to define what trauma
is for a person because it depends on their experience
and it depends on the negative lasting effects in all
of those different domains, and so a lot of people
(22:14):
don't recognize. We talk about it in the book An
Addiction through the lens of Aces, adverse childhood experiences, which
is really part of what you're describing here in those
formative years that then not only set up these narratives
for you, is better not to be seen, It's better
to be small. And really maybe even the word other
(22:35):
than better is safer there, right, Like safer not to
be seen, safer to be small, safer to be silent,
not only sets up those narratives that then begin to
drive the output choices and quotes that you make in life,
because so much of our choices. So my camera just
(22:56):
threw up balloons when I said choices. So that's why
data laughing. It was like very not contextually appropriate to
send up balloons, and.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Also changes your brain, right, it changes your brain, It
changes your your physiology through your body, and this honestly
sets you up when something as big as COVID comes,
as big as George Floyd's murder comes. Your resilience has
been whittled away by those childhood experiences, right, and so
(23:33):
sets you up for that moment at the water cooler
where you quit your job running but taking yourself with
you and taking that whole childhood with you. So you
get in front of this therapist, you start working in
this complex PTSD framework, and then what God, what leads
(23:57):
you to saying yeah, come on addiction podcast?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah yeah, yeah. So there are so many answers to
this question. I feel like part of I I want
wanted to be sitting here was to talk about or
recognize an aspect of religious based trauma on people who
(24:26):
are you know, have been displaced or have been in
the foster care system or in my case adopted I
like to say, legally trafficked. And how like there was
a perfect storm I guess of situations and behaviors and
(24:50):
you know, dynamics in like the most important relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Where meaning the relationship with you, your.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Parents, my parents, and my family, yeah, your family. The
I want to say, like it happened, It kind of
like clicked later in my life, like I did, like
I did start drinking when I was in high school,
but it didn't like really it didn't feel the best
(25:21):
until I was probably in my like twenties or thirties.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And the best is defined how in.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
My I would define it as.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
It was.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
A just like feeling nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
It was feeling nothing, So removing all of those feelings
bad that are constantly around to a feeling nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yes, and doing that in a basically like a community
of people who I mean, the the sort of like
rave party scene I think thrives because there is a
level a certain level of community there.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
For sure, and.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Community and lack of judgment community lack of lack of.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Being judged is what I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Lack of judgment absolutely, that's in fact, like I would say,
maybe like the core principle of like the roots you
know of the RAM scene is like we can all
gather and we can all be together and it doesn't
matter who you are.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Acceptance and belonging unconditionally.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yes, in many ways, like it felt like what church
should have felt like. So I'm bringing that up to say,
after establishing a CPTSD framework with my individual therapist, what
(27:06):
we started working on and are still working on and
we'll probably still be working on for a really long time.
Is honestly like sitting with my feelings, having my feelings,
feeling my feelings, and recognizing that they mean something like
they're I'm told trying to tell me something.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah. Information.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yes, So along with the CPTSD stuff, we're also doing
some internal family systems. So it's really just like, you know,
feelings come up and it's like, uh, where are these
coming from? And what are they saying? And you know,
taking that part of me that is having that feeling
(27:55):
seriously instead of judging it or suppressing it or shaming
it away.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, so one recognizing the feeling, Two where is it
coming from?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Three what is it trying to tell me?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
For validating it, it is real, it is based in something.
It is trying to tell me something, and what do
I do with it? It also seems like part of
this work with your therapist is helping it be safe
for you to feel those emotions because you have some
(28:32):
skills about what to do with them, as opposed to
needing to drink them to nothing.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yes, there is a large part of my work, my
personal work, that has to do with like just managing
my feelings. But also, you know, making space to be
curious about them and what it takes to be able
to allow myself to feel curiosity versus discussed.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Or I think so anyone who has read the book
or who hasn't, obviously please pick up the book. The
framework that we lay out in an addiction is really
like how our childhoods create risk for us as it
relates to substance huse disorders. And you're really talking about
that inherited psychological pillar, right like the childhood you were
(29:24):
born into and those experiences that you had. But we
also talk about in the acquired environmental and this is
why season four is black and brown, because the experiences
of being black and brown in this country really can
be a risk factor for developing substance use disorders. And
(29:47):
it's all about what you said about the rave scene,
that judgment, that discrimination, that lack of belonging, that lack
of acceptance that we put on so many different types
of group i'll call it here in the country.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
And what I love about your story that you're.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Sharing data is that this is not typically the pathway
people think about to recovery. So you didn't move Denver
and say I'm drinking too much. I'm going to find
someone to help me stop drinking. And yet it has
been a pathway that has led you to be able
(30:26):
to look at what role was drinking playing in your
life and make choices about the role that you want
drinking to pay in your life, and so play in
your life, not pay in your life. And so this
is kind of getting into that magic formula part of
the book, which is like, once you start to have
awareness of your inherited biological psychological environmental risk factors, and
(30:52):
you're acquired biological psychological environmental risk factors. And I will
say being adopted is an acquired risk factor for you.
Sounds like the church you grew up in, the religion
you grew up in, sounds like an acquired risk factor
for you.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Evangelical Christianity to be specific. I know there are especially
you know, black church. Black Christianity is totally completely different
the way that white supremacy and you know, Christian nationalism
(31:31):
is a mix of things of two things that benefit
one another. And when you are the only not white
person in a stiff, boring beauty like like my my
religion growing up lacked beauty, It lacked heartfelt expression of
(31:57):
whatever Jesus and God to end things like that are
supposed to give you. I went to a Christian college,
and yes, there were. You could count on like one
or two hands the number of black people at that
college and one hand the number of Asian people at
(32:17):
that college. So when I say that, like I had
a black friend in college, like, it's literally because there
weren't very there were too many. Yeah, one of them
was your friend exactly. So we have had like conversations
around you know, I'm like, how how are you still
(32:43):
a part of this? And you know, basically she was like,
it's not what you think actually, Like it's way fucking different.
It's different from your thing like that you grew up in.
So so I I want to be specific, like it's
evangelical Christianity and it's not all church, Like, it's not
(33:08):
all Christianity. It just happened to be this one. And
I think it's the one where the most people are
walking away. Like I talked to a lot of people
on like a monthly basis. I'll say, who I find
out like they were raised in evangelical Christianity and they're
(33:29):
no longer religious, Like.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
And children are born into the religion of their parents,
right and into the religious traditions of their parents or
adopted into. And I think this word you used earlier,
of displacement is a really important word because it sounds
like even all the way through, correct me if I'm
hearing it wrong, until you found the rave scene is
(33:52):
like a persistent experience of being in spaces where it
didn't feel like you belonged, even at home.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Absolutely, And I mean this is this is the.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Magic formula of trauma of childhood travel right, Like a persistent,
deep sense of not belonging in what feels like all
aspects of life is really damaging. And so how are
you now then, just because time is flying, because that's
what happens when the conversation is good, how then are
(34:32):
you finding your sense of belonging these days?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And how is that part of what you would call?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I guess also, let's just ask that question, what would
you call the definition of recovery that you have developed
or are developing for yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And what role is belonging playing in that?
Speaker 4 (34:53):
For you?
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Absence from alcohol definitely means a lot, and not because
of what it looks like. It's purely like I'm about
to be I'm turning thirty nine in four days.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
You have the same birthday as my mother, November eighth.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
No way, Oh my god, Happy birthday your mom.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Thanks, Happy birthday your jadaf. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Like I'm turning thirty nine. Uh, the reason why I
stopped drinking literally was because of a weird, crazy like
thing that happened.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Well, I want to know this weird crazy thing if
you can share it, no pressure.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, totally. So I had gone to bed after probably
like several drinks, and I woke up kind of like
in the middle of the night and my heart was
racing faster than I've ever felt it race. It was
(36:03):
a different it was a feeling I've never felt before.
I was nauseous, and uh, it was just really alarming,
and I like immediately knew because I don't think I
have any chronic disease, Like last time I went to
the doctor, I as a result of of being adopted.
(36:27):
I don't have any history on like my any sort
of like genetic anything, so they I do have a
fear of like medical institutions as as far back as
when I was a kid, like I grew up in
a county in north central Kansas where the like the
(36:52):
senior citizen population per capita was like the highest in
I don't know the state or something like that. So
everybody around me was old and dying constantly. And I
remember as like before I was a teenager, I was like,
I think I'm dying of cancer. So my relationship with
(37:14):
my body and my health is like has been a
complicated one. Yeah, but I woke up and I was like,
I know exactly why this is happening. I don't know
what's happening, but I would love it to not happen
again because I don't want to spend time in a
fucking hospital. The abstinence is just a sort of It
(37:41):
creates space, That's all it does. It creates space and
it creates time, and it allows me the energy to
explore ways of finding belonging. For instance, I am I
go to the often. It's purely for my mental health.
(38:06):
I started because you know, I'm like, I'm not drinking,
I'm not like smoking weeds so much. I need something
to help me sleep. And I realize that I have
a body type or whatever, like I just need to
like literally like run until I'm tired, or like work
(38:29):
until I'm tired. Or like do something to wear myself out.
So I've known that for quite a while, but it's
just it's way easier to just like get a little
bit like slightly wasted and sort of just like go
to sleep. My relationship to my I'm just gonna say,
(38:49):
like wellness, like well being or health has is like
number one relationship in my life. So I'm still in
the process of trying to figure out what offers me
the feeling of belonging. But things that I've discovered along
(39:13):
the way are, you know, like hang out with people
like new people need to be based around an activity.
They don't need to be based around an activity, but
it really helps otherwise. It helps me form connections and
feel bonded. So that's something that I can apply to
(39:35):
anybody or anything. If I am feeling like I need
to feel connected to somebody, I can be like not
just like I need to call you and vent or
whatever like that doesn't really help. I really need irl
hangouts where.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Some thing experiencing Yes, yes, yeah, no, it's super insightful.
So what I love and I'm going to use this
to get us to round it out what I love
the common what I think is for many people mistaken
concept of recovery is that abstinence from the fill in
(40:18):
the blank is the destination and it's the end, right,
And the way you just described it is as the
means to the destination, which for you is health and
well being. And I think if we start thinking about
which is not an American perspective at all, but this
(40:38):
is my soapbox to try to get it to become,
is health as the presence of filling the blank rather
than health as the absence of right, So health is
the absence of addiction, Health is the absence of alcohol,
Health is the absence of cancer, Health is the absence
of symptoms.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Right, What is health the presence.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Of And you're learning about yourself that health is the
presence of meaningful activities with other people in real life
that lead to a sense of connection and belonging and
therefore well being. And so you won't have a magic formula.
It's a million ways to do that, right, But you
(41:24):
could be completely abstinent of everything else and all lover
symptoms and by the medical chart, completely healthy, but without
the presence of that meaningful activity in real life with
people that allows you connection, which drives a sense of belonging,
you wouldn't have health, And so I just like hope
(41:48):
people will take that from your story and start figuring
out what for them health is the presence of what.
And maybe it is that the absence of a substance
creates space for you to pursue the presence of what
defines well being for you.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
I thought that was really beautiful.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
To bring it full circle. It really is the presence
of pleasure in certain aspects, and that is something that
I have been programmed to reject thanks to the church
since I since I can remember. It can be a
(42:33):
mind fuck sometimes, like when pleasure becomes the thing that
is like helping me or fixing me. I'm just gonna
say fixing, like I'm saying that kind of in a
cheeky way, but like when that's the solution, it really
is a matter of being like why am I rejecting this?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
You know?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Why am I avoiding this? And then kind of like
comp and it gives me agency. So being forced to
being forced into abstinence, like is no way to feel
full in your life in my life, I guess, And
to your point, like, yeah, I can be doing the
(43:18):
most healthy behaviors, but if there isn't some essence of
pleasure of uh, you know, having pleasurable experiences with others?
It is it still sucks.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think let's close it out with the question we
always close it out with, which you already know what
it is. What do you want to leave our listeners with?
So an addiction is a word that we made up.
What are the stigmas we want to undo that are
(43:57):
killing people? What are the things we want to unlearn
that we think we know that are actually harmful? What
are the conversations we want to uncover? So what on
do you want to leave our un addiction listeners with today?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Uncovering conversations? And it doesn't even have to be explicitly about,
you know, kind of like an interventionist style of like, hey,
I noticed that you have like two fucking bottles of
wine at dinner, Like are you fucking okay? It can
be just conversations around and I think that we're doing
(44:39):
this really well. Black and brown communities are doing this
really well, and you know, it's being rejected by internalized
homophobia or internalized you knowophobia, or internalized white supremacy of like,
don't talk about that because it goes against like all
(45:04):
of our American principles or whatever. So one of the
conversations that we're that the adoptee community is having is
around abolishing adoption, and that brings up a lot of
questions around oh, like you know, this is an option
though for people who really do want to not be
(45:25):
parents anymore or whatever, but it is you know, it's
like you're not gonna you're not gonna find what is
underneath things until you are brave enough to break that ground.
Like if nobody else has done it, that doesn't mean
it shouldn't be done. And I really respect and honor
(45:50):
the people who have been having the first conversations around
things because there is so much to learn and we
have to catch up to the needs our like modern needs.
You know, the solutions that exist are outdated. Even within
(46:13):
the adoptee community. There are so many different experiences. They're
not all like terrible. Some people have incredible experiences, but
you know, having uncovering these conversations, uncovering curiosities within yourself,
Like for me, it was like, oh, this behavior, this
(46:35):
activity that has actually been really honestly probably killing me.
It serves a purpose. What is the purpose and how
can I do the same thing with different tools.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
I love it. I love it, Thank you Jada. So
I love that this episode is going to.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Be a place where adoptees can see themselves, because I
think that's uncommon unless you're, like specifically at some adoptee
resource page or situation.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
So I love that obviously.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
For our brown and black people, for our Asian people,
specifically for our folks in Kansas.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Just kidding, I how to throw a choke in there
and lighten it up. But I love this. I love this.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
So I think I would sum it up by saying,
I heard your magic formula come down to at least
three things, not necessarily only three things, but curiosity, connection,
m and pleasure as must three must three ingredients for
(47:51):
Jada's health and well being. Yeah, awesome, All right, Well
that I'm gonna roll us out of here. Thank you
for listening to an addiction talk to you, sir. Thank
you so much for tuning in. And if you like
this episode, please check out my book un Addiction, Six
(48:12):
mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at
Barnes and Noble Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you.
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction.
(48:35):
Send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash you
apod that's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod.
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zana Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By their identities.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We did, and yeah we went to Susoul.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Look at Unaddictioned podcast bringing people together.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I know, I know, I wish you would have been there,
you would have had time. And honestly, Chef Gregory's shit
is poppin'.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yes, you know you need to send him a picture
of you and Jessica in the spot.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I know, y'all.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Look, I mean just the environment looks so amazing. The food,
I was like, I need this food.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah you do for real? Like it's all you know,
like Haiti inspired, So fucking good. How are You's your weekend?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Good?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Let me think, let me see what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Oh yeah, I had zzkk adventure day. So I don't
know if I told you with my nieces for their
birthday every year. What they get isn't adventure Day with
zz I picked them up in the morning, we go
do like fun stuff all day, spend the night in
a hotel, eat breakfast, and then take them home. So
their birthdays are back in April and May. It took
(01:47):
me until this long, dang it. So Kk is fourteen.
She turned fourteen in April. So we had zzkk Adventure
Day on Saturday. So we went to Golden Corral and
stuffed ourselves and then went go karting and sevent y
and virtual reality and laser tag, and then went and
(02:08):
walked around Battery Park and then went to a video
game restaurant and then watched her band videos all night
and stayed in the hotel and then eight Cracker Barrel
and then came home. It was amazing because she's fourteen,
and I was like, okay, tell me all the tea
on everybody at school, and then she was just like
telling me everything.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
It's great.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
What is your What is the number one thing you
look forward to when you go to a buffet?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
The bread?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
The bread?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, first of all, you don't have to be all judgy.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
You asked you asked.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I answered okay, and then you were like judge E
Mcjudgerson because I said the bread, yeah, the buttery, sweet
yeast rolls.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
This response is follow by the salad bar.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Not a judgment on your choices. I just like it
never occurred.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's like.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
I didn't know there was bread at a buffet.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Buffets have like the best fresh baked bad selection.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yes there's more than just rolls usually, but.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
At Golden Corral specifically their rolls and then their uven
baked sweet potatoes and their salad bar.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I love all their vegetables. I eat the meat, but
I mostly go for the rolls. Okay, yeah, now you know.
Now that tells you a bit about me.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Uh and Zuga loves bread.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Everybody ocean to disclose.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
We gotta rose.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
We got a breadhead in the house.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
We didn't plan on this, but it just came out.
Gat Yeah everybody and my family will tell you. And
first of all, I don't even like all you can
eat buffets because I cannot eat a lot, so I
never get my money. It's worth like I can't eat
a lot in one setting. Yeah, I eat multiple times
(04:17):
throughout the day. Smaller portions and so like at a buffet,
I'm always wasting money, but that's fine.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
That one plate, That one plate is good.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
One plate is fine, and then you like feel compelled
to go get some more just because you paid for
all you can eat. Yeah, I'm like this plate, but
I always get a cold plate a hot plate, and.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's my strategy. All right, Well, should we.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Start this episode even though that might be the start
of the episode.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, let's fucking go.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
All right, So, welcome to un addiction I'm super excited
because this is unusual. You've heard Jada, probably only a
couple of times, but Jada's the mastermind behind bringing the
Unaddictioned podcast to you.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
She's our producer.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Mostly off air, and Jada and I would have the
most amazing before and after conversations with each episode, or
if we were taping intros and outros, and I was like, Jada,
your perspective is incredible, and what do you think about
being on air and sharing your story as part of
(05:35):
season four Black and Brown?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
And she was like, hell, yeah, doesn't that sound like you?
That impression it was on? Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, practice practice. So welcome Jada to an addiction as
a guest.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Thank you, this is fun.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Well, why don't we start out the same way we
always start out, except I don't have to tell you
what the podcast is about.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Why don't you tell our listeners? Who is Jada and
what is your recovery experience?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I am. I knew this question is coming, and I've
been literally thinking about it for like three days street
and I think the short answer and long answer is
I am literally figuring it out. So twenty twenty, I
(06:40):
am still I think I would say literally like actively
recovering from those events. It really did a number to
my up here, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
What have been specifically Jada, because lots happened in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, So my experience of that was it felt very
I felt very numb, and partially because it was overwhelming.
I didn't know where to be or how to be.
(07:22):
And that's like, you know, that was like common I
think for everybody. What I felt I saw was people
grasping for something to help them decide how to move forward.
(07:47):
And I think that I did all those things, like
just doing Oh god, it feels so awkward talking about
this because we're like out of it, right, But.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Do you feel like you're out of it. Sounds like
you might still be in it.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Well physically out of it.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So you know, like taking different classes that you would
never that you would never think about, were like being
accessible online. I think I did, like a tap like
a tap.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Class, a tap dancer.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
You know, yeah, I know, I know. It was very hard.
It was so fucking hard, but yeah, you know, it
was like a tie. It was like a vortex and
a vacuum at the same time. It was like on
the one hand, you kind of you had like the
freedom to explore so much, but on the other hand,
(08:55):
it was that freedom was like at the expense of
like other so of like liberties I guess of like traveling,
going outside, having community connections, blah blah blah. So I
did that. I was drinking a shit ton of alcohol there.
I think that was like the most That was like
(09:17):
kind of what I landed on of like this is
how I'm going to move forward. And it wasn't that
was different. No, No, that's what I was about to say.
It was like it was a shit ton, but it
wasn't like a shit ton more than usual. It was
a shit ton in like respect to you know, if
(09:39):
there was like a scale of things that I was
doing in the day, looking after myself or like caring
for myself was like way up here, and you know,
and then like the things that I was engaging in
that just like gave me a one second of escape
(10:02):
were very you know, outweighed pretty much everything else. So
at the time, I was working this job that I
really liked, and there were some things happening and being
said it was a co working space.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Things being said by people not in our company. You know,
it was close to downtown where the George Floyd stuff
was happening, the marches and that those kinds of things.
Asian people were getting fucking beat up, you know, all
of this like the racial sort of like tension, and
(10:49):
these guys were just like saying some like fucking stupid.
It was basically like anti Chinese whatever remarks. I was no,
not at me. I I was like it was like
they were just like standing around talking as you do
(11:12):
in co workspaces and just like shooting the ship. But
it was very triggering, and it was the response or
like my my feeling activated was very was already kind
of like half cocks you know, because of everything that
(11:33):
was going on. Had I been this version of myself
and gone back and had that experience, it would have
been completely different.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I would have happened what happened to the Jada on
that day.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I was like, I have to quit my job because
my bosses are fucking racist. And one of them was
standing there and he didn't say anything. He wasn't like, hey,
that's like a little bit inappropriate. He just kind of
like laughed it off and walked away. And I saw that,
(12:12):
and I was like, oh my god, you're a fucking racist.
I don't think that's the case necessarily, Like my emotional
response did not match the what was going on.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
M h. But at the time, at the time, what
you needed was for him to be an upstander, not
a passive participant. Yes, and so he didn't stand up
in any way, and so that was very injurious. Yes,
And then you feel like, even though that injury is valid,
(12:44):
your reaction was bigger than it, let's say, had to be.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, So I quit my job. And
at first I was like, yes, you know, I was
like feeling so fucking free. This was like spring of
twenty twenty one, and I'm like yes, you know, this
(13:11):
is creating space for something more aligned. And I probably
sent out, you know, between seventy five and one hundred
resumes or applications or whatever and was not getting hired.
And it was I was like, oh my god, I
(13:33):
think I peaked, Like I think I peaked in my life,
and you know, catastrophizing and basically having this narrative of
the absolute worst case scenario, like it makes me emotional
because I was taking on the responsibility of circumstances that were,
(13:56):
you know, outside of my control, and I thought that
I did something wrong That lasted for a while, like
basically up until you and I met that kind of
like period of time.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Where you were.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
In this kind of castastrophic I have done something wrong
type of energy pointed towards yourself, yes, and drinking a
shit ton.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah. I kind of like leveled out a little bit
because I didn't have a job and I couldn't afford it.
It was, you know, I was definitely using it as
a coping mechanism during lockdown and through the pandemic up
(14:49):
to a point and then it kind of I kind
of like leveled out because I was sensing this, you know,
I've always gone through sort of like ebbs and flows
of stuff. So like like when I was like partying
super hard, it would be like party really hard for
a couple of days or whatever, and then like try
(15:11):
to back off or something like that after for like
a couple of days, and then party really hard again
the next weekend. And that lasted for a few years,
maybe like five five ish or six ish maybe, and
then I would have these like spurts of like, uh,
(15:32):
I cannot look at or touch or think about another
thing that I put in my body ever again. And
those times felt like the beginning of something really important
or something I started seeing my current therapist. I moved
out of I moved out of Denver. I lived there
(15:54):
for twenty years. I moved out, and at the time
I was like, I'm just doing something new, but only
in retrospect, I was like absolutely trying to run away
from something because I had just like come to this
point where I felt like everything I touched turned to shit.
So I know that people that we've had on the
(16:19):
podcast have maybe alluded to, you know, this thing of
changing your location or your geography in order to like
have those changes be the changes that you've needed to
fix your life or whatever. I was an absolute denial.
I was like, no, I'm just like I'm over that city,
(16:43):
I'm over that weather, I'm over whatever, like very arbitrary
thing about it. And I really like believed believed that
for a long time. But I started seeing my current
therapist in like March of twenty twenty two, when I
(17:03):
moved out here to Oregon. Within a couple months of
seeing them, I kind of like described, you know why
I was why. I was like seeking support. I was like, look,
my life feels like garbage and I don't know what
to do about it. And we were talking about the
(17:27):
events of twenty twenty and she basically was like, I
think that you. I think that we need to go
down this path of like a CPTSD framework because there
are it sounds like there are events that occurred that
basically like triggered so many things in your childhood.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, so, first of all, tell us what CPTSD framework
is for our listeners who might be connecting to your story.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So far, it's.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Complex PTSD And if whatever, any of these things that
I say are inaccurate, will you correct me?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
But so PTSD would be things like I went to
war or I was sexually assaulted, very big, singular experiences
that cause trauma. CPTSD is more, I'm not gonna say smaller,
but let's say, let's say like less significant through the
(18:35):
lens of our society and culture. Like they are quote
unquote smaller things that happen more frequently over time. Using
myself as an example, my parents, they would spank me,
and then the there was no like repair.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Process.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
So it was like I did something wrong, I would
be hit for it and then and then there would
be no like attunement one of my parents coming over
to me like maybe comforting me or I'm still honestly
like learning what that could have possibly been. But I
(19:19):
do something wrong, I get punished for it, and then
I am expected to like basically pretend like everything is
okay and like keep it moving if there are people
listening who are curious about this CPTSD shit. Stephanie Fu
she used to be a producer on NPR for MPR.
She wrote a memoir called What My Bones Know, and
(19:44):
this is a memoir about her CPTSD experience. Her experiences,
I would say, are categorically just very different. So things
like her parents would threaten to kill her basically over
and over again, or like either verbally or with an
(20:05):
action like overtly like I'm gonna fucking kill you, or
like I think there was one time she got in
a car and with her dad and like he was
driving off fucking crazy, you know, and she didn't know
she was gonna like live. So things that happened continuously
(20:26):
where you start to begin to write this narrative for
yourself beliefs around those actions that happened.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So my.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Mine were like I don't deserve support. It's better if
I am not seen, you know, like being small is
safe and good stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You're really just describing some nothing to correct. The initial
kind of concept that we all call it medical establishment
had of PTSD was exactly what you said, like these
big catastrophic I went to war, I experienced a rape,
I was in a natural disaster. And now SAMSA gives
(21:24):
us a definition of trauma that is the three e's
and the three e's are an event or series of
events that is experienced as harmful and has negative lasting
effects physically, emotionally, psychologically, socially, and so the complex PTSD
(21:49):
framework uses that broader definition of trauma to understand that
we don't get from the outside to define what trauma
is for a person because it depends on their experience
and it depends on the negative lasting effects in all
of those different domains, and so a lot of people
(22:14):
don't recognize. We talk about it in the book An
Addiction through the lens of Aces, adverse childhood experiences, which
is really part of what you're describing here in those
formative years that then not only set up these narratives
for you, is better not to be seen, It's better
to be small. And really maybe even the word other
(22:35):
than better is safer there, right, Like safer not to
be seen, safer to be small, safer to be silent,
not only sets up those narratives that then begin to
drive the output choices and quotes that you make in life,
because so much of our choices. So my camera just
(22:56):
threw up balloons when I said choices. So that's why
data laughing. It was like very not contextually appropriate to
send up balloons, and.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Also changes your brain, right, it changes your brain, It
changes your your physiology through your body, and this honestly
sets you up when something as big as COVID comes,
as big as George Floyd's murder comes. Your resilience has
been whittled away by those childhood experiences, right, and so
(23:33):
sets you up for that moment at the water cooler
where you quit your job running but taking yourself with
you and taking that whole childhood with you. So you
get in front of this therapist, you start working in
this complex PTSD framework, and then what God, what leads
(23:57):
you to saying yeah, come on addiction podcast?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah yeah, yeah. So there are so many answers to
this question. I feel like part of I I want
wanted to be sitting here was to talk about or
recognize an aspect of religious based trauma on people who
(24:26):
are you know, have been displaced or have been in
the foster care system or in my case adopted I
like to say, legally trafficked. And how like there was
a perfect storm I guess of situations and behaviors and
(24:50):
you know, dynamics in like the most important relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Where meaning the relationship with you, your.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Parents, my parents, and my family, yeah, your family. The
I want to say, like it happened, It kind of
like clicked later in my life, like I did, like
I did start drinking when I was in high school,
but it didn't like really it didn't feel the best
(25:21):
until I was probably in my like twenties or thirties.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And the best is defined how in.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
My I would define it as.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
It was.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
A just like feeling nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
It was feeling nothing, So removing all of those feelings
bad that are constantly around to a feeling nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yes, and doing that in a basically like a community
of people who I mean, the the sort of like
rave party scene I think thrives because there is a
level a certain level of community there.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
For sure, and.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Community and lack of judgment community lack of lack of.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Being judged is what I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Lack of judgment absolutely, that's in fact, like I would say,
maybe like the core principle of like the roots you
know of the RAM scene is like we can all
gather and we can all be together and it doesn't
matter who you are.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Acceptance and belonging unconditionally.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yes, in many ways, like it felt like what church
should have felt like. So I'm bringing that up to say,
after establishing a CPTSD framework with my individual therapist, what
(27:06):
we started working on and are still working on and
we'll probably still be working on for a really long time.
Is honestly like sitting with my feelings, having my feelings,
feeling my feelings, and recognizing that they mean something like
they're I'm told trying to tell me something.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah. Information.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yes, So along with the CPTSD stuff, we're also doing
some internal family systems. So it's really just like, you know,
feelings come up and it's like, uh, where are these
coming from? And what are they saying? And you know,
taking that part of me that is having that feeling
(27:55):
seriously instead of judging it or suppressing it or shaming
it away.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, so one recognizing the feeling, Two where is it
coming from?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Three what is it trying to tell me?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
For validating it, it is real, it is based in something.
It is trying to tell me something, and what do
I do with it? It also seems like part of
this work with your therapist is helping it be safe
for you to feel those emotions because you have some
(28:32):
skills about what to do with them, as opposed to
needing to drink them to nothing.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yes, there is a large part of my work, my
personal work, that has to do with like just managing
my feelings. But also, you know, making space to be
curious about them and what it takes to be able
to allow myself to feel curiosity versus discussed.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Or I think so anyone who has read the book
or who hasn't, obviously please pick up the book. The
framework that we lay out in an addiction is really
like how our childhoods create risk for us as it
relates to substance huse disorders. And you're really talking about
that inherited psychological pillar, right like the childhood you were
(29:24):
born into and those experiences that you had. But we
also talk about in the acquired environmental and this is
why season four is black and brown, because the experiences
of being black and brown in this country really can
be a risk factor for developing substance use disorders. And
(29:47):
it's all about what you said about the rave scene,
that judgment, that discrimination, that lack of belonging, that lack
of acceptance that we put on so many different types
of group i'll call it here in the country.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
And what I love about your story that you're.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Sharing data is that this is not typically the pathway
people think about to recovery. So you didn't move Denver
and say I'm drinking too much. I'm going to find
someone to help me stop drinking. And yet it has
been a pathway that has led you to be able
(30:26):
to look at what role was drinking playing in your
life and make choices about the role that you want
drinking to pay in your life, and so play in
your life, not pay in your life. And so this
is kind of getting into that magic formula part of
the book, which is like, once you start to have
awareness of your inherited biological psychological environmental risk factors, and
(30:52):
you're acquired biological psychological environmental risk factors. And I will
say being adopted is an acquired risk factor for you.
Sounds like the church you grew up in, the religion
you grew up in, sounds like an acquired risk factor
for you.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Evangelical Christianity to be specific. I know there are especially
you know, black church. Black Christianity is totally completely different
the way that white supremacy and you know, Christian nationalism
(31:31):
is a mix of things of two things that benefit
one another. And when you are the only not white
person in a stiff, boring beauty like like my my
religion growing up lacked beauty, It lacked heartfelt expression of
(31:57):
whatever Jesus and God to end things like that are
supposed to give you. I went to a Christian college,
and yes, there were. You could count on like one
or two hands the number of black people at that
college and one hand the number of Asian people at
(32:17):
that college. So when I say that, like I had
a black friend in college, like, it's literally because there
weren't very there were too many. Yeah, one of them
was your friend exactly. So we have had like conversations
around you know, I'm like, how how are you still
(32:43):
a part of this? And you know, basically she was like,
it's not what you think actually, Like it's way fucking different.
It's different from your thing like that you grew up in.
So so I I want to be specific, like it's
evangelical Christianity and it's not all church, Like, it's not
(33:08):
all Christianity. It just happened to be this one. And
I think it's the one where the most people are
walking away. Like I talked to a lot of people
on like a monthly basis. I'll say, who I find
out like they were raised in evangelical Christianity and they're
(33:29):
no longer religious, Like.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
And children are born into the religion of their parents,
right and into the religious traditions of their parents or
adopted into. And I think this word you used earlier,
of displacement is a really important word because it sounds
like even all the way through, correct me if I'm
hearing it wrong, until you found the rave scene is
(33:52):
like a persistent experience of being in spaces where it
didn't feel like you belonged, even at home.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Absolutely, And I mean this is this is the.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Magic formula of trauma of childhood travel right, Like a persistent,
deep sense of not belonging in what feels like all
aspects of life is really damaging. And so how are
you now then, just because time is flying, because that's
what happens when the conversation is good, how then are
(34:32):
you finding your sense of belonging these days?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And how is that part of what you would call?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I guess also, let's just ask that question, what would
you call the definition of recovery that you have developed
or are developing for yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And what role is belonging playing in that?
Speaker 4 (34:53):
For you?
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Absence from alcohol definitely means a lot, and not because
of what it looks like. It's purely like I'm about
to be I'm turning thirty nine in four days.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
You have the same birthday as my mother, November eighth.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
No way, Oh my god, Happy birthday your mom.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Thanks, Happy birthday your jadaf. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Like I'm turning thirty nine. Uh, the reason why I
stopped drinking literally was because of a weird, crazy like
thing that happened.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Well, I want to know this weird crazy thing if
you can share it, no pressure.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, totally. So I had gone to bed after probably
like several drinks, and I woke up kind of like
in the middle of the night and my heart was
racing faster than I've ever felt it race. It was
(36:03):
a different it was a feeling I've never felt before.
I was nauseous, and uh, it was just really alarming,
and I like immediately knew because I don't think I
have any chronic disease, Like last time I went to
the doctor, I as a result of of being adopted.
(36:27):
I don't have any history on like my any sort
of like genetic anything, so they I do have a
fear of like medical institutions as as far back as
when I was a kid, like I grew up in
a county in north central Kansas where the like the
(36:52):
senior citizen population per capita was like the highest in
I don't know the state or something like that. So
everybody around me was old and dying constantly. And I
remember as like before I was a teenager, I was like,
I think I'm dying of cancer. So my relationship with
(37:14):
my body and my health is like has been a
complicated one. Yeah, but I woke up and I was like,
I know exactly why this is happening. I don't know
what's happening, but I would love it to not happen
again because I don't want to spend time in a
fucking hospital. The abstinence is just a sort of It
(37:41):
creates space, That's all it does. It creates space and
it creates time, and it allows me the energy to
explore ways of finding belonging. For instance, I am I
go to the often. It's purely for my mental health.
(38:06):
I started because you know, I'm like, I'm not drinking,
I'm not like smoking weeds so much. I need something
to help me sleep. And I realize that I have
a body type or whatever, like I just need to
like literally like run until I'm tired, or like work
(38:29):
until I'm tired. Or like do something to wear myself out.
So I've known that for quite a while, but it's
just it's way easier to just like get a little
bit like slightly wasted and sort of just like go
to sleep. My relationship to my I'm just gonna say,
(38:49):
like wellness, like well being or health has is like
number one relationship in my life. So I'm still in
the process of trying to figure out what offers me
the feeling of belonging. But things that I've discovered along
(39:13):
the way are, you know, like hang out with people
like new people need to be based around an activity.
They don't need to be based around an activity, but
it really helps otherwise. It helps me form connections and
feel bonded. So that's something that I can apply to
(39:35):
anybody or anything. If I am feeling like I need
to feel connected to somebody, I can be like not
just like I need to call you and vent or
whatever like that doesn't really help. I really need irl
hangouts where.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Some thing experiencing Yes, yes, yeah, no, it's super insightful.
So what I love and I'm going to use this
to get us to round it out what I love
the common what I think is for many people mistaken
concept of recovery is that abstinence from the fill in
(40:18):
the blank is the destination and it's the end, right,
And the way you just described it is as the
means to the destination, which for you is health and
well being. And I think if we start thinking about
which is not an American perspective at all, but this
(40:38):
is my soapbox to try to get it to become,
is health as the presence of filling the blank rather
than health as the absence of right, So health is
the absence of addiction, Health is the absence of alcohol,
Health is the absence of cancer, Health is the absence
of symptoms.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Right, What is health the presence.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Of And you're learning about yourself that health is the
presence of meaningful activities with other people in real life
that lead to a sense of connection and belonging and
therefore well being. And so you won't have a magic formula.
It's a million ways to do that, right, But you
(41:24):
could be completely abstinent of everything else and all lover
symptoms and by the medical chart, completely healthy, but without
the presence of that meaningful activity in real life with
people that allows you connection, which drives a sense of belonging,
you wouldn't have health, And so I just like hope
(41:48):
people will take that from your story and start figuring
out what for them health is the presence of what.
And maybe it is that the absence of a substance
creates space for you to pursue the presence of what
defines well being for you.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
I thought that was really beautiful.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
To bring it full circle. It really is the presence
of pleasure in certain aspects, and that is something that
I have been programmed to reject thanks to the church
since I since I can remember. It can be a
(42:33):
mind fuck sometimes, like when pleasure becomes the thing that
is like helping me or fixing me. I'm just gonna
say fixing, like I'm saying that kind of in a
cheeky way, but like when that's the solution, it really
is a matter of being like why am I rejecting this?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
You know?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Why am I avoiding this? And then kind of like
comp and it gives me agency. So being forced to
being forced into abstinence, like is no way to feel
full in your life in my life, I guess, And
to your point, like, yeah, I can be doing the
(43:18):
most healthy behaviors, but if there isn't some essence of
pleasure of uh, you know, having pleasurable experiences with others?
It is it still sucks.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think let's close it out with the question we
always close it out with, which you already know what
it is. What do you want to leave our listeners with?
So an addiction is a word that we made up.
What are the stigmas we want to undo that are
(43:57):
killing people? What are the things we want to unlearn
that we think we know that are actually harmful? What
are the conversations we want to uncover? So what on
do you want to leave our un addiction listeners with today?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Uncovering conversations? And it doesn't even have to be explicitly about,
you know, kind of like an interventionist style of like, hey,
I noticed that you have like two fucking bottles of
wine at dinner, Like are you fucking okay? It can
be just conversations around and I think that we're doing
(44:39):
this really well. Black and brown communities are doing this
really well, and you know, it's being rejected by internalized
homophobia or internalized you knowophobia, or internalized white supremacy of like,
don't talk about that because it goes against like all
(45:04):
of our American principles or whatever. So one of the
conversations that we're that the adoptee community is having is
around abolishing adoption, and that brings up a lot of
questions around oh, like you know, this is an option
though for people who really do want to not be
(45:25):
parents anymore or whatever, but it is you know, it's
like you're not gonna you're not gonna find what is
underneath things until you are brave enough to break that ground.
Like if nobody else has done it, that doesn't mean
it shouldn't be done. And I really respect and honor
(45:50):
the people who have been having the first conversations around
things because there is so much to learn and we
have to catch up to the needs our like modern needs.
You know, the solutions that exist are outdated. Even within
(46:13):
the adoptee community. There are so many different experiences. They're
not all like terrible. Some people have incredible experiences, but
you know, having uncovering these conversations, uncovering curiosities within yourself,
Like for me, it was like, oh, this behavior, this
(46:35):
activity that has actually been really honestly probably killing me.
It serves a purpose. What is the purpose and how
can I do the same thing with different tools.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
I love it. I love it, Thank you Jada. So
I love that this episode is going to.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Be a place where adoptees can see themselves, because I
think that's uncommon unless you're, like specifically at some adoptee
resource page or situation.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
So I love that obviously.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
For our brown and black people, for our Asian people,
specifically for our folks in Kansas.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Just kidding, I how to throw a choke in there
and lighten it up. But I love this. I love this.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
So I think I would sum it up by saying,
I heard your magic formula come down to at least
three things, not necessarily only three things, but curiosity, connection,
m and pleasure as must three must three ingredients for
(47:51):
Jada's health and well being. Yeah, awesome, All right, Well
that I'm gonna roll us out of here. Thank you
for listening to an addiction talk to you, sir. Thank
you so much for tuning in. And if you like
this episode, please check out my book un Addiction, Six
(48:12):
mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at
Barnes and Noble Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you.
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction.
(48:35):
Send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash you
apod that's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod.
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