November 26, 2024 • 32 mins
This week, Un-Addiction has a big announcement and Nzinga re-caps her favorite moments from all four seasons of the pod.
In this episode:
- Un-Addiction Pod recap
- Crying
- The CAGE assessment from Nzinga's book, "Un-Addiction."
📞Keep sending us voicemails! If you want to share how Un-Addiction has impacted your life, leave us a message at: https://www.speakpipe.com/UAPod
📖Dr. Nzinga Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is out now! Order here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/
📱Find Nzinga on Threads and X (Twitter): @nzingamd / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzingaharrisonmd/
📧Follow us on IG @unaddictionpod. If you'd like to watch our interviews, you can catch us on YouTube @unaddictionpod. Questions, suggestions, and anything else? Email us at: unaddictionpod@gmail.com
💜If you or a loved one are experiencing addiction, have questions about recovery, or need treatment tailored to you, visit eleanorhealth.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zanga Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped by their identities.
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
(00:22):
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So we ended our conversation last week with both of
us feeling like grieving grief feelings. So I wanted to
officially talk about an announcement for our listeners and then
(00:52):
pick your brain about some of your favorite moments of
the pod.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh man, how's it feel? Yeah, it's a mixture. So
we originally only intended to do two seasons. Remember when
we plan this out, we were like, we're going to
do two seasons of un Addictioned. We were going to
do the first six episode season going into the book
(01:18):
release January, and then do six episodes coming out of
the book release. And then the conversations were so good
we were like, clearly we have to do another season.
But even after the second season, I was like, Jada,
Oh my god, I'm so busy, Like I don't know
how I can keep doing this. And then you were like,
but we have so and so lined up and so
(01:38):
and so lined up, and I was like, obviously we
have to do season three. So then we did season
three and I was like, Jada, oh my god, I'm
so busy. I'm even busier than I was when we
were doing season one and two, so I don't think
there's any way we can continue to do this. And
then I think it was Katie who came on and
(01:59):
Laura and they both talked about the unique experience of
even finding out that recovery was for black people, and
I was like, oh my god, Okay, we have to
do a season four to shine light on this experience.
And then Jessica Happy came through and season four became
(02:21):
black and brown, and I was like, Jada, oh my god, like, seriously,
I'm even busier than I once when we did season
three and two and one, And it's true, I am
unhealthily busy. And so I'm being like super intentional about
(02:42):
decreasing what I'm doing, which is so hard because all
the things I'm doing are so amazing this podcast included.
So anyway, long, long, long answer to your question is
it's a mix. It's a mix of relief that I'm
taking things off of my plate and grease because the
conversations have been so good and I think, you know,
(03:06):
the voices and the experiences that we're able to shine
a light on with this podcast yours included are so
important for people to hear. And so even though this
is our last episode, I hope people will keep talking
about the book and sharing it with people, and we'll
keep talking about the Unaddiction Podcast and sharing it with people,
(03:28):
because I really do believe it's these conversations that'll start
turning things around. So that was the first part of
your question, and then the second part was some favorite
some favorite moments.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Okay, you know, just some ideas of things like what
conversations or topics left you, you know, thinking about them
for the rest of the day or the rest of
the week. What are things that you learned, what are
things that you've never thound about. What are things that
brought you immense joy or satisfaction?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Oh? Man, I swear I could literally talk about every episode,
but okay, I just pulled up the episode list because legit,
there's probably something from every episode. But yeah, starting with
the very first episode, missus Kasha Davis. I was so
(04:29):
proud to open up this episode with a gay man
drag queen because I just want to be really intentional
about our lgbtq i AA community seeing themselves and hearing themselves.
And I remember ed telling us about his father's dying
(04:53):
days and when his father looked at him and said
I love you and I'm proud of you, and it
was connected also to his sobriety and what that meant.
Oh my god, you hear me tearing up right now,
Like that was same fricking two years ago, and I
can still feel it in my heart. Like that was
(05:14):
our very first episode, and I was like, holy crap,
if we're gonna be like, is this one of the
podcast it's about to be like because if so, I
am here for it. So I just thought that was
like so incredibly powerful. And then we had Derek Brown
(05:34):
episode two, and Derek taught me that a non alcoholic
cocktail is not a mocktail. He was like, I am
not talking about Shirley Temple, and that really kicked off,
which is still part of we talk up through all
of these episodes about like planning seeds. That really kicked
(05:55):
off me and Joel being like super interested in non
alcoholic cocktails. And it was only a couple of weeks
after that Joel and I went to Oregon SunRiver Sun
River Resort, Yeah exactly, I had to. I think we
were going for Joel's national championships for the for the
the golf Tour, and so we were like, Okay, we
(06:19):
want a non alcoholic cocktail. And the bartender made this
non alcoholic cocktail that was like, oh snap, this is
our jam. And so we started going to all every
restaurant we would go to, it would be like, non
alcoholic cocktail, put it on the menu. If you don't
have it on the menu. It became like a little
movement for me and Joel and then turned into we
were like we don't even need to drink anymore. So
(06:41):
me and Joel stopped drinking like fifteen months ago. So
like that was incredible. Wow, I know, right, I know,
isn't it? Isn't it? And then I met Derek in
person at a book signing, an addiction book signing in DC,
and it was amazing. Okay, and then Sami oh So
Shamiko was the first black woman we had on the pod,
(07:05):
and I really connected to her story. You know, I'm
all about the positive childhood experiences, and she talked about
I mean, so many adverse childhood experiences. But then she
talked about how basketball saved her and it was not
just the sport, but the connection, the belonging, the adults
(07:26):
taking a genuine interest in hers, like pieces all over it.
And what I really loved was, you know, she talked
about our culture of hiding the struggle, like when you're
the star, and that culture of appearing perfect when you're
falling apart on the inside. And I just thought it
(07:48):
was a really beautiful episode where I thought a lot
of very high performing, perfect appearing people would be able
to connect with that struggle. So that was incredible. Oh God,
I am I gonna go through every episode because literally
you're looking at these episodes and like, you don't have to.
(08:12):
I know, I don't have to. I'm just saying every
single one of these episodes. I can absolutely from the
moment that stood out to me, Jason was like, you
gotta have fun and treatment, and I was like, yes, Jason,
because you gotta have fun in life period.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I'm pretty sure he was like, you gotta have fun
and also if you don't jump out of a plane
at some point.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
And by the way, he still owes me jumping out
of a plane, he does, I don't want to do that,
Like I want to do something else fun. I want
to do something else fun. Just to be clear, No,
you're gonna ride horses. We're gonna ride horses. But I
remember what Jason said. I was afraid to get in
recovery because I didn't know how I would have fun sober.
(08:56):
And I thought that was like critically important for people
to hear, like they're so much fun in recovery without
the pain of active addiction. But a lot of people,
you know, don't know how they will connect and have
fun without substances. So that was incredible. Joseph Green listen.
Joseph always takes me to church with his spoken word,
(09:19):
and he took me to church in episode five. Also,
the problem is I connect with Joseph a lot of
different other ways, and so I might tell a story
that wasn't even in this podcast. But I really appreciated
his message, which is like, sobriety is a part of
a bigger life as opposed to sobriety is your life? Right?
(09:46):
I remember Phil? Okay, this is concluding season one, Phil
read and I have told the story more than one
since then. Phil said somebody took him to an AA
meeting of all black men and that was when it
clicked for him that there was a place for him
in sobriety. And so this is a huge shout out
(10:07):
to all of the efforts people are making to create
these groups of safety where people can come in and
see themselves and be themselves. All right, Season two, Demi,
this was the funniest episode we had ever done until
Flavor flav Sorry, Demy, you have been supplanted. Demi really
put the importance of recognizing neurodiversity and the sense of
(10:36):
not quite right and not fitting in and lack of
belonging that that can create, and how that was like
her main risk factor for developing alcohol use disorder. So
you already know, Jada because we talked to her, and
then I like that opened up my brain just in
other parts of my life and just started coming. I
(10:59):
think that's what she about to say. Okay, so then.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Are you for real though? Have you started writing it ma'am.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I started out this whole thing saying I am taking
things off my plate.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay, I just yeah, no, I'm not suggesting you do.
I was just asking if you had.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I think Jennifer Keen will say the answer is yes.
And we know when Jennifer Keene says it shall be,
it shall be. Yeah. Aaron car strung out. So this
really changed my life because I people will not believe
this had never before. Okay, that's not true. I had
(11:40):
only other ever read one other memoir i'll call it
like a memoir of addiction, and that one I read
all the way back, probably in like two thousand and eight,
two thousand and nine. It was no A piece of cake,
cupcake brown, A piece of cake, cupcake brown. And there
(12:01):
it just it's too painful to do this work all
day every day and then come home and also have
this work be my reading. And so like, I don't
watch shows, I don't watch popular shows about addiction. I
don't read people's memoirs, et cetera. At least it's how
it used to be. And then I took Strong out
of all places on vacation with me to Mexico, and
(12:21):
I was like, this is not even how I roll.
And I was like, oh my god, like it was
just so meaningful reading this beautiful book where she was
just so open. And now I have started reading memoirs
of people with addiction journeys and like, I just absolutely
love it. Which is how we get to Laura Cathcart
(12:42):
in a next episode, and how we get to Jessica
Happy in a next episode. Like, I just love it.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It's a whole it is off a thing world world memoir,
addiction memoirs.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It is a whole world.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And you think like there's you know, there's nothing more
to say, and then you read the next one and
you're like, holy shit.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Exactly exactly, and then Okay, I don't want anybody to
take it personally if I don't call out your episode
specifically because I'm skip a couple Maya Maya soliv its listen.
I was like, this white lady is an activist. I
already knew that, but she came so hard on the
(13:29):
episode and she was like, my addiction was severe. I
was the drug dealer. I went in the courtroom and
I was like, why am I the only white person
in here? Because I know I'm not the only white
person selling drugs, and I just appreciated how on the nose,
unfiltered she talked about the cultural political aspects of addiction
and the criminalization of addiction. I was like, girl, you
(13:51):
took me to church, and then, okay, you know, I
got to mention Dopey Dave. So me and Dave go
way back shout out Dopey Nation. I mean, just incredible.
I love me some Dopey Dave. He's so funny. That's
what I loved, the irreverence and just like realness that
(14:13):
he talks about the addiction experience with. So I'm just
gonna shout out Dave again because I love me some Dave.
Katie I mentioned earlier that was the start of the
idea for season four, All Black Everything. I remember her
mentioning that she needed a sabbatical from the work she
was doing with Sober Black Girls, and it felt really
(14:36):
important to me to validate for her the importance of
taking the sabbatical, so much so that I even emailed
her a couple of times after, like, uh, and also
because I need to learn from her. Okay, and then
I must see Laura Willoughby. This was so cool, so
out straight out of the UK. First of all, she
(14:58):
was also amazing. She started Club Soda, which, first of all,
I just always love when people come up with these
very clever things like club Soda is a club for
people that don't drink. I was like, why are you
so cool because she's British?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I mean right, like, come on, she's hilarious because she's
straight up, straight up britt esh I love that episode
so much.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
She talked about how she contributed to the start of
the cultural revolution of not drinking quote for tonight or
for good, and I just you know, I love the
idea of a cultural revolution. I talk about it. Actually,
it has like a whole section in the Unaddiction book,
like the importance of starting these cultural revolutions. And also
(15:46):
Laura I said, I'm coming to the UK in a minute,
so I look forward. Because she was also a dessert lover.
These are the things I do not forget and it's
gonna be for real when I come out there. Laura, Okay,
season four, So we made it up to season four.
Season four started out my idea was all black, and
(16:08):
then it really was Jessica Happy who reached out to
me through Aaron Carr and I was like, this has
got to be black and brown. I like knew it immediately.
But Laura, we opened up season four Black and Brown season,
she wrote stash my life in Hiding, and I just
remember from the moment it might even be the first page.
(16:29):
But y'all if it's not, do not be like and Zinga.
That was not even on the first page. It was
very early in the book. I think like the dedication
was she said something I'm paraphrasing this book. If for
people seeking recovery that doesn't don't see themselves in books,
(16:50):
that's really where I mean. I was like, we gotta
do a black and Brown season, and so just super grateful.
The other thing I remember Laura was like, I was like,
what's your man formula? She was like, I get up,
I do yoga. I think she says, I'm like, drink
a gallon of water, which I was like, that's wild.
Takes her vitamins like has are whole, no shade. I'm
(17:10):
just saying, if I drink a gallon of water at
the beginning of the day, I would be in no
meetings because I would be on the toilet pan. But
she was like, to be clear, I don't love doing it. Yes, yes, yeah, right,
Like she's like everybody's like, oh and I feel so
She's like, no, I do not love doing it, but
(17:31):
I love the result of doing it, which is this
life of recovery. And I was like, damn that was that.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
That is so gnarly to me, charly, like like there
is a deep devotion to that result or that outcome
or you know, that version of life, to the point
where she puts herself through a daily regimen of not
so preferred things over and over and over again, like
(18:04):
that's right. Yeah, that stuck with me for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
That's right, that's right. And then I'll do these a
little bit out of order, but no, won't. I'm just
going to the list. Jessica Hoppy. Oh, first of all,
Jessica Hoppy is like the coolest. So she reached out
after we had already decided season four was the last
(18:27):
season and already had the guests lined up, and I
was like, we gotta find a way because she talked
about the Gateway drug being the American dream and I
was like, oh, why was I about to say? Snap?
(18:49):
And then you start snapping? Yeah, exactly, and that might
be you can fact check me on this Jada, but
that much might be the episode I cried the hardest
and the most you did frequently. I mean, oh, Jessica,
just her whole experience just climbed inside my soul. And
(19:11):
we also were watching Love Is Blind season seven at
the same time, and so I will not spoil it
for you, but we were back and forth on email, like, yes,
so Jessica, I'm like a new fangirl for Jessica. Same
chef Gregory Gorday. We worked so hard, Okay, I think
(19:31):
Chef Gorday might be busier than in Zinga Harrison and
we are yeah for and like doing amazing things. We
most have worked four months to find the time to
tape this episode and boy, boy boy, it was so
(19:54):
so so worth it. And the moment that stands out
for me is when he said he, you know, felt
he was at the lowest point of his life, kind
of had a quote taken the fall from grace from
high end New York kitchen to this small kitchen with
(20:15):
roaches in it, and it was like, this is the worst.
And then somebody invited him to an AA meeting and
like that was the beginning of the beginning, right of
the rest of his life, and it reminded me my
husband's father, my father in law, Wilbur, who is no
longer with us, May he rest in peace, was a
(20:36):
honery wil Wilbur. Wilbur was honering, okay, and but one
of my like one of my favorite quotes from him
is like, if somebody tried to tell him what to do,
or even if you weren't trying to tell him what
to do, he would be like, I am three times
seven plus, which means like I'm older than twenty one
years old. I'm grown. You can't tell me what to do.
(20:57):
That is like a snapshot into Wilburgh. Okay, But Wilbury
used to say, sometimes when you're winning, you're losing, and
when you're winning, wow, And like that moment from Chef
Gregory stood out to me. He thought he was losing,
but that was like the beginning of winning. I love
(21:20):
that episode, okay. And then Flavor Flave was my all
time I mean, oh my goodness, Flave took me to
school about thirty two times in forty minutes. It was
so good and so you'll hear in the episodes if
you go back and listen. I tried to ask everybody
(21:41):
what's one thing you want us to unlearn that we
think we know. What's one stigma you want us to undo?
What's one conversation you want us to uncover? And Flave
was like, you can't unlearn what you already know, and
you can't undo what you've already done. And I have
said that probably almost every day since that episode, and
(22:03):
I'm like, we're not gonna try to unlearn, but we're
gonna try to learn something new, and we're not gonna
try to undo, but we're gonna make decisions about what
we want to do differently. We can still uncover our conversations.
He did let me keep that on, but he was
just so funny. And then the other part that I
absolutely loved was like Flavor Flaves take on the fuckets
(22:25):
and just say no. That was just that was my
favorite part of that episode. And then I'm gonna end
on our episode with Jada because this came about very organically,
and I really think it was the black and brown
idea that created the opportunity for you to say yes
(22:47):
to coming on the podcast, or for us to even
think about having you not as producer but as guests.
Because hour before and after conversations on all of these
episodes that I just went through were so personal and meaningful.
And now I'm getting cheery, but you've been this is
(23:10):
part of my grief, such an important and beautiful addition
to my life. Thank you, and so I will always
be grateful to you for sharing your experience with our
un addiction listeners.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Thank you so much. I as I was editing our conversation,
I realized that I forgot to mention, like, very clearly,
you know, the whole the thing that allowed me to even.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Explore like.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
A different you know, path Forward was your book, and
anyone like watching the events of my life from the
out outside of my own body, would have been like, oh,
obviously there's an obvious reason why this, this relationship and
this project is a part of your life. I was
(24:14):
very much with the you know, with the unfolding of
this podcast step by step in the present, because I
absolutely knew my bones what was coming. I just like
I just knew it, and but I didn't know why exactly.
I could feel a life I'm putting it in quotes,
(24:38):
a lifestyle change coming because oh I'm getting older, or
like oh it's about time, or oh, positive changes are
always good, you know whatever. I didn't like realize until
I started reading your book. I am for I was
like firmly inside many risk factors, living out all of
(25:02):
these risk factors, and I didn't know it. I was
not aware. So for anyone who is like even slightly curious,
I'm like, I want to challenge you if you've never
you know, taken any sort of assessment. There is one
in Inziga's book. It's cage. What are What does it
stand for?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, it's an acronym, So it's just four questions. C
Have you ever felt have you ever thought about cutting back? A?
Have you ever been annoyed when somebody else mentioned to
you the use of filling the blank? Gee? Have you
ever felt guilty about your use pattern? And E? Have
you ever needed an eye opener first thing in the
(25:45):
morning of that substance to get yourself going? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
So I did that assessment, and I think there are
more questions around in each of those, just like exploring further,
you know what any like some examples of what some
of these things might be. And I did that and
it was like yes, yes, yes, no or whatever, right,
(26:11):
And it's one of those things where you absolutely know.
If you answered yes to even one of these questions,
then here are some ways to move forward if you're
even more curious. The thing about being curious about something
or fucking around and finding out is that you don't
have to do anything about it. I think there's For me,
(26:35):
there's always reluctance when I might know the answer to
something and I don't like what the answer is, like
I won't even ask the question. But having been exposed
to all so many people's stories and how it's not
the end of the world if you happened to experience
(26:58):
trauma or some things in life and chose to deal
with it in particular ways that many other people do
and some people don't get out of You know, that
is like something that we as humans do, especially here
in the West. It's common, and we don't talk about
it because we I think, ultimately think that it's just
(27:20):
like the end of something, an identity, a safety, something
that we can never could never even think of replacing.
So I did this assessment, and I'm like, so it's
a problem that I am. Anytime I drink alcohol, I'm
(27:44):
binge drinking like nobody has ever around me ever challenged
that they've said things like in a joking way where
and perhaps like the people that I have in my
life know me well enough to know that if they
even said anything more direct I it would be like
a fight. Right. But I did this assessment because I
(28:05):
was very curious, and the answer that I got was
clear that I'm not immune to the things that I've
lived through. Basically, I didn't make a I didn't like
put my hand on the desk and be like, I'm
(28:27):
this is it, I'm finished or whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
You really don't have to.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Decide to do something at all if you feel curious,
like be curious about it and just like let it be,
because once that door is opened, it's really hard to close.
All of the different parts of your psyche are just
kind of like, oh, you know what if or whatever.
Of course is probably gonna be shame and that's okay too,
(28:57):
but anyway, you yeah, same. I want to reflect the
same back to you, like our relationship has been incredibly
impactful in so many positive, beautiful ways that I that
continue to live past the moments, right and will continue
to live and I'm yeah, I'm so so grateful.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thank you. Well, I think then now that Jada and
I have both dissolved ourselves to tears that this can
be a natural end to the Unaddictioned podcast. So you
heard kind of mind Jada's genuine and organic gratitude for
(29:46):
each other. I would also just like to finish with
gratitude for every single guest who came on the show,
every single support person behind the scenes that made it
possible for our guests to come on the show. Jennifer Keen,
who byball way, made Unaddictioned the book possible but also
(30:13):
made Unaddictioned the podcast possible through Octagon, definitely want to
say thank you. In addition to jen Uber at Octagon.
Definitely have to give a big shout out to Amanda
who actually puts the podcasts on the waves whatever. I
(30:35):
don't know how podcasts works, so it's probably not waves.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I think she shoots them through a T shirt gun
into space.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Thank you, Amanda, and then every single one of you
who listened to one episode. Thank you for listening. If
you told somebody about it, thank you for telling somebody
about it. Even if you didn't, but you took something
from it and thought about something differently, or thought about
(31:08):
something you want to do differently, or had a conversation
then thank you for that too, and so.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Stay tuned, absolutely, stay tuned, and ps, you can always
email us. We would love to hear the impact I
personally would love to hear the impact that Endzinga's book
and this or and or this podcast has had on
your life, if you had a really dope convo whatever.
(31:37):
Our voicemail is still open. We're going to keep that open.
We're going to keep our social media open just in
case of something in the future. I don't know, uh,
but yeah, we like interact with us. We're here for
it and interact with each other obviously because.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
We need it all right. Then, by y'all, bye, Thank
you so much for tuning in. And if you like
this episode, please check out my book An Addiction, Six
Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at
Barnes and Noble Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
(32:15):
and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you.
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction,
send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash you apod.
(32:35):
That's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod.
What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?
I'm doctor and Zanga Harrison, and in season four of
Unaddictioned podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their
journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped by their identities.
These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,
(00:22):
but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help
you or a loved one find recovery too.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So we ended our conversation last week with both of
us feeling like grieving grief feelings. So I wanted to
officially talk about an announcement for our listeners and then
(00:52):
pick your brain about some of your favorite moments of
the pod.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh man, how's it feel? Yeah, it's a mixture. So
we originally only intended to do two seasons. Remember when
we plan this out, we were like, we're going to
do two seasons of un Addictioned. We were going to
do the first six episode season going into the book
(01:18):
release January, and then do six episodes coming out of
the book release. And then the conversations were so good
we were like, clearly we have to do another season.
But even after the second season, I was like, Jada,
Oh my god, I'm so busy, Like I don't know
how I can keep doing this. And then you were like,
but we have so and so lined up and so
(01:38):
and so lined up, and I was like, obviously we
have to do season three. So then we did season
three and I was like, Jada, oh my god, I'm
so busy. I'm even busier than I was when we
were doing season one and two, so I don't think
there's any way we can continue to do this. And
then I think it was Katie who came on and
(01:59):
Laura and they both talked about the unique experience of
even finding out that recovery was for black people, and
I was like, oh my god, Okay, we have to
do a season four to shine light on this experience.
And then Jessica Happy came through and season four became
(02:21):
black and brown, and I was like, Jada, oh my god, like, seriously,
I'm even busier than I once when we did season
three and two and one, And it's true, I am
unhealthily busy. And so I'm being like super intentional about
(02:42):
decreasing what I'm doing, which is so hard because all
the things I'm doing are so amazing this podcast included.
So anyway, long, long, long answer to your question is
it's a mix. It's a mix of relief that I'm
taking things off of my plate and grease because the
conversations have been so good and I think, you know,
(03:06):
the voices and the experiences that we're able to shine
a light on with this podcast yours included are so
important for people to hear. And so even though this
is our last episode, I hope people will keep talking
about the book and sharing it with people, and we'll
keep talking about the Unaddiction Podcast and sharing it with people,
(03:28):
because I really do believe it's these conversations that'll start
turning things around. So that was the first part of
your question, and then the second part was some favorite
some favorite moments.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Okay, you know, just some ideas of things like what
conversations or topics left you, you know, thinking about them
for the rest of the day or the rest of
the week. What are things that you learned, what are
things that you've never thound about. What are things that
brought you immense joy or satisfaction?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Oh? Man, I swear I could literally talk about every episode,
but okay, I just pulled up the episode list because legit,
there's probably something from every episode. But yeah, starting with
the very first episode, missus Kasha Davis. I was so
(04:29):
proud to open up this episode with a gay man
drag queen because I just want to be really intentional
about our lgbtq i AA community seeing themselves and hearing themselves.
And I remember ed telling us about his father's dying
(04:53):
days and when his father looked at him and said
I love you and I'm proud of you, and it
was connected also to his sobriety and what that meant.
Oh my god, you hear me tearing up right now,
Like that was same fricking two years ago, and I
can still feel it in my heart. Like that was
(05:14):
our very first episode, and I was like, holy crap,
if we're gonna be like, is this one of the
podcast it's about to be like because if so, I
am here for it. So I just thought that was
like so incredibly powerful. And then we had Derek Brown
(05:34):
episode two, and Derek taught me that a non alcoholic
cocktail is not a mocktail. He was like, I am
not talking about Shirley Temple, and that really kicked off,
which is still part of we talk up through all
of these episodes about like planning seeds. That really kicked
(05:55):
off me and Joel being like super interested in non
alcoholic cocktails. And it was only a couple of weeks
after that Joel and I went to Oregon SunRiver Sun
River Resort, Yeah exactly, I had to. I think we
were going for Joel's national championships for the for the
the golf Tour, and so we were like, Okay, we
(06:19):
want a non alcoholic cocktail. And the bartender made this
non alcoholic cocktail that was like, oh snap, this is
our jam. And so we started going to all every
restaurant we would go to, it would be like, non
alcoholic cocktail, put it on the menu. If you don't
have it on the menu. It became like a little
movement for me and Joel and then turned into we
were like we don't even need to drink anymore. So
(06:41):
me and Joel stopped drinking like fifteen months ago. So
like that was incredible. Wow, I know, right, I know,
isn't it? Isn't it? And then I met Derek in
person at a book signing, an addiction book signing in DC,
and it was amazing. Okay, and then Sami oh So
Shamiko was the first black woman we had on the pod,
(07:05):
and I really connected to her story. You know, I'm
all about the positive childhood experiences, and she talked about
I mean, so many adverse childhood experiences. But then she
talked about how basketball saved her and it was not
just the sport, but the connection, the belonging, the adults
(07:26):
taking a genuine interest in hers, like pieces all over it.
And what I really loved was, you know, she talked
about our culture of hiding the struggle, like when you're
the star, and that culture of appearing perfect when you're
falling apart on the inside. And I just thought it
(07:48):
was a really beautiful episode where I thought a lot
of very high performing, perfect appearing people would be able
to connect with that struggle. So that was incredible. Oh God,
I am I gonna go through every episode because literally
you're looking at these episodes and like, you don't have to.
(08:12):
I know, I don't have to. I'm just saying every
single one of these episodes. I can absolutely from the
moment that stood out to me, Jason was like, you
gotta have fun and treatment, and I was like, yes, Jason,
because you gotta have fun in life period.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I'm pretty sure he was like, you gotta have fun
and also if you don't jump out of a plane
at some point.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
And by the way, he still owes me jumping out
of a plane, he does, I don't want to do that,
Like I want to do something else fun. I want
to do something else fun. Just to be clear, No,
you're gonna ride horses. We're gonna ride horses. But I
remember what Jason said. I was afraid to get in
recovery because I didn't know how I would have fun sober.
(08:56):
And I thought that was like critically important for people
to hear, like they're so much fun in recovery without
the pain of active addiction. But a lot of people,
you know, don't know how they will connect and have
fun without substances. So that was incredible. Joseph Green listen.
Joseph always takes me to church with his spoken word,
(09:19):
and he took me to church in episode five. Also,
the problem is I connect with Joseph a lot of
different other ways, and so I might tell a story
that wasn't even in this podcast. But I really appreciated
his message, which is like, sobriety is a part of
a bigger life as opposed to sobriety is your life? Right?
(09:46):
I remember Phil? Okay, this is concluding season one, Phil
read and I have told the story more than one
since then. Phil said somebody took him to an AA
meeting of all black men and that was when it
clicked for him that there was a place for him
in sobriety. And so this is a huge shout out
(10:07):
to all of the efforts people are making to create
these groups of safety where people can come in and
see themselves and be themselves. All right, Season two, Demi,
this was the funniest episode we had ever done until
Flavor flav Sorry, Demy, you have been supplanted. Demi really
put the importance of recognizing neurodiversity and the sense of
(10:36):
not quite right and not fitting in and lack of
belonging that that can create, and how that was like
her main risk factor for developing alcohol use disorder. So
you already know, Jada because we talked to her, and
then I like that opened up my brain just in
other parts of my life and just started coming. I
(10:59):
think that's what she about to say. Okay, so then.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Are you for real though? Have you started writing it ma'am.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I started out this whole thing saying I am taking
things off my plate.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay, I just yeah, no, I'm not suggesting you do.
I was just asking if you had.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I think Jennifer Keen will say the answer is yes.
And we know when Jennifer Keene says it shall be,
it shall be. Yeah. Aaron car strung out. So this
really changed my life because I people will not believe
this had never before. Okay, that's not true. I had
(11:40):
only other ever read one other memoir i'll call it
like a memoir of addiction, and that one I read
all the way back, probably in like two thousand and eight,
two thousand and nine. It was no A piece of cake,
cupcake brown, A piece of cake, cupcake brown. And there
(12:01):
it just it's too painful to do this work all
day every day and then come home and also have
this work be my reading. And so like, I don't
watch shows, I don't watch popular shows about addiction. I
don't read people's memoirs, et cetera. At least it's how
it used to be. And then I took Strong out
of all places on vacation with me to Mexico, and
(12:21):
I was like, this is not even how I roll.
And I was like, oh my god, like it was
just so meaningful reading this beautiful book where she was
just so open. And now I have started reading memoirs
of people with addiction journeys and like, I just absolutely
love it. Which is how we get to Laura Cathcart
(12:42):
in a next episode, and how we get to Jessica
Happy in a next episode. Like, I just love it.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It's a whole it is off a thing world world memoir,
addiction memoirs.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It is a whole world.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And you think like there's you know, there's nothing more
to say, and then you read the next one and
you're like, holy shit.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Exactly exactly, and then Okay, I don't want anybody to
take it personally if I don't call out your episode
specifically because I'm skip a couple Maya Maya soliv its listen.
I was like, this white lady is an activist. I
already knew that, but she came so hard on the
(13:29):
episode and she was like, my addiction was severe. I
was the drug dealer. I went in the courtroom and
I was like, why am I the only white person
in here? Because I know I'm not the only white
person selling drugs, and I just appreciated how on the nose,
unfiltered she talked about the cultural political aspects of addiction
and the criminalization of addiction. I was like, girl, you
(13:51):
took me to church, and then, okay, you know, I
got to mention Dopey Dave. So me and Dave go
way back shout out Dopey Nation. I mean, just incredible.
I love me some Dopey Dave. He's so funny. That's
what I loved, the irreverence and just like realness that
(14:13):
he talks about the addiction experience with. So I'm just
gonna shout out Dave again because I love me some Dave.
Katie I mentioned earlier that was the start of the
idea for season four, All Black Everything. I remember her
mentioning that she needed a sabbatical from the work she
was doing with Sober Black Girls, and it felt really
(14:36):
important to me to validate for her the importance of
taking the sabbatical, so much so that I even emailed
her a couple of times after, like, uh, and also
because I need to learn from her. Okay, and then
I must see Laura Willoughby. This was so cool, so
out straight out of the UK. First of all, she
(14:58):
was also amazing. She started Club Soda, which, first of all,
I just always love when people come up with these
very clever things like club Soda is a club for
people that don't drink. I was like, why are you
so cool because she's British?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I mean right, like, come on, she's hilarious because she's
straight up, straight up britt esh I love that episode
so much.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
She talked about how she contributed to the start of
the cultural revolution of not drinking quote for tonight or
for good, and I just you know, I love the
idea of a cultural revolution. I talk about it. Actually,
it has like a whole section in the Unaddiction book,
like the importance of starting these cultural revolutions. And also
(15:46):
Laura I said, I'm coming to the UK in a minute,
so I look forward. Because she was also a dessert lover.
These are the things I do not forget and it's
gonna be for real when I come out there. Laura, Okay,
season four, So we made it up to season four.
Season four started out my idea was all black, and
(16:08):
then it really was Jessica Happy who reached out to
me through Aaron Carr and I was like, this has
got to be black and brown. I like knew it immediately.
But Laura, we opened up season four Black and Brown season,
she wrote stash my life in Hiding, and I just
remember from the moment it might even be the first page.
(16:29):
But y'all if it's not, do not be like and Zinga.
That was not even on the first page. It was
very early in the book. I think like the dedication
was she said something I'm paraphrasing this book. If for
people seeking recovery that doesn't don't see themselves in books,
(16:50):
that's really where I mean. I was like, we gotta
do a black and Brown season, and so just super grateful.
The other thing I remember Laura was like, I was like,
what's your man formula? She was like, I get up,
I do yoga. I think she says, I'm like, drink
a gallon of water, which I was like, that's wild.
Takes her vitamins like has are whole, no shade. I'm
(17:10):
just saying, if I drink a gallon of water at
the beginning of the day, I would be in no
meetings because I would be on the toilet pan. But
she was like, to be clear, I don't love doing it. Yes, yes, yeah, right,
Like she's like everybody's like, oh and I feel so
She's like, no, I do not love doing it, but
(17:31):
I love the result of doing it, which is this
life of recovery. And I was like, damn that was that.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
That is so gnarly to me, charly, like like there
is a deep devotion to that result or that outcome
or you know, that version of life, to the point
where she puts herself through a daily regimen of not
so preferred things over and over and over again, like
(18:04):
that's right. Yeah, that stuck with me for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
That's right, that's right. And then I'll do these a
little bit out of order, but no, won't. I'm just
going to the list. Jessica Hoppy. Oh, first of all,
Jessica Hoppy is like the coolest. So she reached out
after we had already decided season four was the last
(18:27):
season and already had the guests lined up, and I
was like, we gotta find a way because she talked
about the Gateway drug being the American dream and I
was like, oh, why was I about to say? Snap?
(18:49):
And then you start snapping? Yeah, exactly, and that might
be you can fact check me on this Jada, but
that much might be the episode I cried the hardest
and the most you did frequently. I mean, oh, Jessica,
just her whole experience just climbed inside my soul. And
(19:11):
we also were watching Love Is Blind season seven at
the same time, and so I will not spoil it
for you, but we were back and forth on email, like, yes,
so Jessica, I'm like a new fangirl for Jessica. Same
chef Gregory Gorday. We worked so hard, Okay, I think
(19:31):
Chef Gorday might be busier than in Zinga Harrison and
we are yeah for and like doing amazing things. We
most have worked four months to find the time to
tape this episode and boy, boy boy, it was so
(19:54):
so so worth it. And the moment that stands out
for me is when he said he, you know, felt
he was at the lowest point of his life, kind
of had a quote taken the fall from grace from
high end New York kitchen to this small kitchen with
(20:15):
roaches in it, and it was like, this is the worst.
And then somebody invited him to an AA meeting and
like that was the beginning of the beginning, right of
the rest of his life, and it reminded me my
husband's father, my father in law, Wilbur, who is no
longer with us, May he rest in peace, was a
(20:36):
honery wil Wilbur. Wilbur was honering, okay, and but one
of my like one of my favorite quotes from him
is like, if somebody tried to tell him what to do,
or even if you weren't trying to tell him what
to do, he would be like, I am three times
seven plus, which means like I'm older than twenty one
years old. I'm grown. You can't tell me what to do.
(20:57):
That is like a snapshot into Wilburgh. Okay, But Wilbury
used to say, sometimes when you're winning, you're losing, and
when you're winning, wow, And like that moment from Chef
Gregory stood out to me. He thought he was losing,
but that was like the beginning of winning. I love
(21:20):
that episode, okay. And then Flavor Flave was my all
time I mean, oh my goodness, Flave took me to
school about thirty two times in forty minutes. It was
so good and so you'll hear in the episodes if
you go back and listen. I tried to ask everybody
(21:41):
what's one thing you want us to unlearn that we
think we know. What's one stigma you want us to undo?
What's one conversation you want us to uncover? And Flave
was like, you can't unlearn what you already know, and
you can't undo what you've already done. And I have
said that probably almost every day since that episode, and
(22:03):
I'm like, we're not gonna try to unlearn, but we're
gonna try to learn something new, and we're not gonna
try to undo, but we're gonna make decisions about what
we want to do differently. We can still uncover our conversations.
He did let me keep that on, but he was
just so funny. And then the other part that I
absolutely loved was like Flavor Flaves take on the fuckets
(22:25):
and just say no. That was just that was my
favorite part of that episode. And then I'm gonna end
on our episode with Jada because this came about very organically,
and I really think it was the black and brown
idea that created the opportunity for you to say yes
(22:47):
to coming on the podcast, or for us to even
think about having you not as producer but as guests.
Because hour before and after conversations on all of these
episodes that I just went through were so personal and meaningful.
And now I'm getting cheery, but you've been this is
(23:10):
part of my grief, such an important and beautiful addition
to my life. Thank you, and so I will always
be grateful to you for sharing your experience with our
un addiction listeners.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Thank you so much. I as I was editing our conversation,
I realized that I forgot to mention, like, very clearly,
you know, the whole the thing that allowed me to even.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Explore like.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
A different you know, path Forward was your book, and
anyone like watching the events of my life from the
out outside of my own body, would have been like, oh,
obviously there's an obvious reason why this, this relationship and
this project is a part of your life. I was
(24:14):
very much with the you know, with the unfolding of
this podcast step by step in the present, because I
absolutely knew my bones what was coming. I just like
I just knew it, and but I didn't know why exactly.
I could feel a life I'm putting it in quotes,
(24:38):
a lifestyle change coming because oh I'm getting older, or
like oh it's about time, or oh, positive changes are
always good, you know whatever. I didn't like realize until
I started reading your book. I am for I was
like firmly inside many risk factors, living out all of
(25:02):
these risk factors, and I didn't know it. I was
not aware. So for anyone who is like even slightly curious,
I'm like, I want to challenge you if you've never
you know, taken any sort of assessment. There is one
in Inziga's book. It's cage. What are What does it
stand for?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, it's an acronym, So it's just four questions. C
Have you ever felt have you ever thought about cutting back? A?
Have you ever been annoyed when somebody else mentioned to
you the use of filling the blank? Gee? Have you
ever felt guilty about your use pattern? And E? Have
you ever needed an eye opener first thing in the
(25:45):
morning of that substance to get yourself going? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
So I did that assessment, and I think there are
more questions around in each of those, just like exploring further,
you know what any like some examples of what some
of these things might be. And I did that and
it was like yes, yes, yes, no or whatever, right,
(26:11):
And it's one of those things where you absolutely know.
If you answered yes to even one of these questions,
then here are some ways to move forward if you're
even more curious. The thing about being curious about something
or fucking around and finding out is that you don't
have to do anything about it. I think there's For me,
(26:35):
there's always reluctance when I might know the answer to
something and I don't like what the answer is, like
I won't even ask the question. But having been exposed
to all so many people's stories and how it's not
the end of the world if you happened to experience
(26:58):
trauma or some things in life and chose to deal
with it in particular ways that many other people do
and some people don't get out of You know, that
is like something that we as humans do, especially here
in the West. It's common, and we don't talk about
it because we I think, ultimately think that it's just
(27:20):
like the end of something, an identity, a safety, something
that we can never could never even think of replacing.
So I did this assessment, and I'm like, so it's
a problem that I am. Anytime I drink alcohol, I'm
(27:44):
binge drinking like nobody has ever around me ever challenged
that they've said things like in a joking way where
and perhaps like the people that I have in my
life know me well enough to know that if they
even said anything more direct I it would be like
a fight. Right. But I did this assessment because I
(28:05):
was very curious, and the answer that I got was
clear that I'm not immune to the things that I've
lived through. Basically, I didn't make a I didn't like
put my hand on the desk and be like, I'm
(28:27):
this is it, I'm finished or whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
You really don't have to.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Decide to do something at all if you feel curious,
like be curious about it and just like let it be,
because once that door is opened, it's really hard to close.
All of the different parts of your psyche are just
kind of like, oh, you know what if or whatever.
Of course is probably gonna be shame and that's okay too,
(28:57):
but anyway, you yeah, same. I want to reflect the
same back to you, like our relationship has been incredibly
impactful in so many positive, beautiful ways that I that
continue to live past the moments, right and will continue
to live and I'm yeah, I'm so so grateful.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thank you. Well, I think then now that Jada and
I have both dissolved ourselves to tears that this can
be a natural end to the Unaddictioned podcast. So you
heard kind of mind Jada's genuine and organic gratitude for
(29:46):
each other. I would also just like to finish with
gratitude for every single guest who came on the show,
every single support person behind the scenes that made it
possible for our guests to come on the show. Jennifer Keen,
who byball way, made Unaddictioned the book possible but also
(30:13):
made Unaddictioned the podcast possible through Octagon, definitely want to
say thank you. In addition to jen Uber at Octagon.
Definitely have to give a big shout out to Amanda
who actually puts the podcasts on the waves whatever. I
(30:35):
don't know how podcasts works, so it's probably not waves.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I think she shoots them through a T shirt gun
into space.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Thank you, Amanda, and then every single one of you
who listened to one episode. Thank you for listening. If
you told somebody about it, thank you for telling somebody
about it. Even if you didn't, but you took something
from it and thought about something differently, or thought about
(31:08):
something you want to do differently, or had a conversation
then thank you for that too, and so.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Stay tuned, absolutely, stay tuned, and ps, you can always
email us. We would love to hear the impact I
personally would love to hear the impact that Endzinga's book
and this or and or this podcast has had on
your life, if you had a really dope convo whatever.
(31:37):
Our voicemail is still open. We're going to keep that open.
We're going to keep our social media open just in
case of something in the future. I don't know, uh,
but yeah, we like interact with us. We're here for
it and interact with each other obviously because.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
We need it all right. Then, by y'all, bye, Thank
you so much for tuning in. And if you like
this episode, please check out my book An Addiction, Six
Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at
Barnes and Noble Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
(32:15):
and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you.
If you identify as black or brown and have a
recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that
you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction,
send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash you apod.
(32:35):
That's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod.
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