January 16, 2024 • 46 mins
Ana Marie Cox joins Dr. Nzinga Harrison to talk about everything AA and sobriety bring her, from infinite miracles to unconditional love. Ana candidly shares what it feels like to be in a manic episode, how recovery has taught her how to treat herself as someone with bipolar disorder, and how to be intersectional in recovery. If you are in recovery, are considering AA, or are the child of an alcoholic, this episode is for you.
Ana hosts a writing workshop for anyone with a "before" and "after" in there lives here: https://www.anamariecox.com/
Find Ana on IG: @anamariecox / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anamariecox/
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Dr. Nzinga's Harrison's book, "Un-Addiction: Six Mind-Changing Conversations That Could Save a Life" is OUT NOW! Order it here: https://www.nzingaharrisonmd.com/
Find Nzinga on Threads / X (Twitter): @nzingamd / LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nzingaharrisonmd/
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If you'd like to watch our interviews, you can catch us on YouTube @unaddictionpod.
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If you or a loved one are experiencing addiction, have questions about recovery, or need treatment tailored to you, visit eleanorhealth.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned.
Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is
now available from Union Square and Company, or wherever books
(00:46):
are sold. Hono Marie Cox is a political columnist for
The New Republic and a culture critic whose writing has
appeared in Sports Illustrated, The New York Times, NBC dot Com,
and The Cut, where she wrote a column called Sober,
questioning her upcoming whinmar Just Like Your Mother is an
(01:08):
account of addiction, recovery and intergenerational trauma which seeks to
answer the question why did my mother die of her addiction?
But I was able to get sober. In this episode,
we walked through her adverse childhood experiences also known as
aces and mental health difficulties, and how those can put
(01:30):
any of us at risk for developing addiction. Such an
honest and vulnerable conversation, I hope it'll touch you the
way it touched me. Yes, So I have an executive
coach and we're talking about shoulds really come out of
Like you decide the destination, it's X, and then when
you're on a journey it becomes clear to you you're
(01:51):
actually headed to why. You're like, should should should? Should? Should?
And he's like, when reality, this is the quote from
my executive coach in Zinga, it ain't never x okay.
And now this is my manta, it ain't never x okay.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I think there's a lot of truth to that. What
felt true in the conversation I was having with my
friend because we were talking about both being CPTSD survivors,
is there's a lot of unworthiness, Yes, that comes with that.
And I think for her and for me, should is
(02:32):
just always that version of ourselves we think we need
to be in order to be loved and accepted. Yeah,
and so every time we should it's like beating ourselves
up just a little men. And also I've discovered for me,
it's a way of setting myself up to not do
(02:53):
stuff and to set and to perhaps create too many
things that I think I should do. I've been doing
a lot of healing real lately, and one of the
things I've realized is that I've spent a lot of
my life preparing and planning and goal setting and not
(03:14):
so much doing or accepting or resting.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It's a bit of always ahead of the moment as
compared to in the moment mindfulness. And sounds like you're
making a transition. Okay, So I'm going to use this
as a transition to officially jump us into this episode
because this is exactly where I want to go with it,
(03:41):
and I think this is exactly why we have the
podcast to help people understand what different journeys to recovery
look like, what the formula that you're working. And it
sounds like part of your formula is getting to that
being in this moment without judgment, which is not easy, right,
So can we just start with tell us who you are?
(04:05):
This is like the most, this is the most I'm
a psychiatrist to answer question, tell me who you are
and how you came to be?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Oh my god, I teach.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I teach interviewing classes and journalism programs every once in
a while.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And you're like, don't ever ask a question like that.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
No, My cheat code is ask them how they came
to be the person they are. If you run into
a brick wall with somebody and they're like shutting down
or they won't answer, or your questions seem off or whatever,
sometimes how did you become the person that you are
is a way of because there's no simple answer.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, so tell me.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Tell me who I am. I've avoided the question all
I'm the adult child of an alcoholic. I'm really good
at avoiding pople seeing me. I am Anno Marie Cox.
(05:12):
I am a journalist and writer and podcaster. And I
feel comfortable putting those things first, even though they're what
I do for money, because they are very essential to
who I am.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Oh okay, I want to click into that for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I love stories. I love hearing other people's stories. I
love telling my story. I love my favorite thing about teaching.
I also teach about both teaching and journalism. This is
(05:54):
gonna be another parallel to psychology is when you see
that you've helped someone understand something like that light in
a student's eyes, when you've helped them kind of like
get to that click and they understand something they didn't
understand before, is the most satisfying thing that there is.
(06:21):
Second to that same feeling can come from writing. Sometimes
it doesn't come from like in writing. It's usually when
I know that I've hit it, but it's a more
interior thing because I haven't had feedback yet. But like
when I know I've like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I was almost coming back to your second thing I
was going to say, I can imagine seeing that light
is also part of what's rewarding about telling your story,
and I want to start there because Yeah, this is
an addiction the podcast, and one of our main goals
(06:56):
is to uncover the conversations we need to be having.
People can be so afraid because of stigma, because of
the things we think we know. People can be so
afraid of telling their story. But the freedom and the
joy of telling your story and seeing your story turn
the light on behind someone else's eyes, I think is incredible.
(07:22):
Is that part of what you experience when you tell your.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, and it reminds me, you know, before I am
any of those things, I am an alcoholic in recovery,
and recovery is the center, or has to be, even
when I don't realize it's the center of my life,
even when my focus has shifted, if that makes any
sense at all. It is the center of my life
(07:46):
because without my sobriety, I in my connection to my
higher power, which I have. I have a higher power.
It's been helpful to me. I know, different people, different
things that I believe that I'm having. My spiritual connection,
my spiritual well being is the center of who I am,
(08:11):
and it is the thing that allows me to do
all the other things because without it, you know, I
lived for thirty eight years vamping, you know, like I guess,
or you could put it in psychological terms like survival mode,
just trying to get by, just like trying to I
didn't get a lot of good instruction as a kid,
(08:34):
you know, a lot of good patterns, so I was
just like you know, and perfectionism and overachieving we're a
big part of that. And drinking and using drugs to
some extent also a big part of that. And that
(08:55):
was not sustainable for me and I also uh have
bipolar disorder too, and you know it's back.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Home as also or bipolar disorder type.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
To type two. Okay, And that's a part of my story. Uh.
In fact, you can talk more about it. It's actually
a bigger part of my story than I kind of realized. Might.
My bottom as an alcoholic was a pretty serious suicide attempt.
And that is the thing that reminds me that less
(09:31):
I have my spiritual house in order, as they say
in AA, or unless I maintain my connection to my
higher power or spirit of the universe or higher self
or whenever term you want to use, I will die.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The spakes are the highest.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
One way or another, yep, I drink myself to death
like my mom it, or I will become so unhappy
and desperate and sad and lonely and hopeless, I might
take my own life. So it's a really good I
sometimes say I feel sorry for normal folks because they
don't have to have a spiritual life. They can just
(10:16):
like get along without it. Then I cannot. My life
depends on having some sort of space in my life
for connection to something greater than myself. And maybe that
gets us to talking about bipolar disorder. So I've been
(10:38):
sober for twelve years. Congratulation twelve years and six months
and two days. Okay, because my belly button birthday is
six months away from my sobriety date, so I am
always very aware of the six month the path mark.
And I took to a like it was, you know,
(11:04):
I just loved it. I fell in love. I've been
out in and out before. But then I went to
treatment and I was really resistant at first, and then
I kind of made a deal with myself, which is like,
I have not been this is not I have not
come up with something, and this seems to work for
some people, and so I'll give it a shot. And
(11:25):
because I am a type a perfectionist, overachieving person, I
kind of made a deal with myself that I would
do it like they said, perfectly, and if it didn't work,
I can always drink or kill myself. It's a deal,
like I have to give it a real shot, sort
of like your parents saying, like take a bite and
(11:45):
if you don't like it, then you can, you know,
not eat it, but you have to like have to try,
have to be honest. And so I did the things
that they said and you know, even when it came
to praying, I remember telling my counselor like, I don't
really this feels really dumb because I'm not sure what
I believe and I don't think anyone is listening. And
(12:06):
she was like, doesn't matter, do it anyway? And I
found a reading not then, but I think later that
pointed out something that's been important to me since, which is,
we don't if you believe in a higher power. But
even if you don't, praying is not about letting the
higher power know what you want. If it's a higher power,
(12:29):
if it's all knowing omnip in it, that thing already knows.
We pray to hear ourselves ask And I think it's
a good gut check on what I'm asking for. Is
it something I want or something I need? Is it selfish?
And it's also a form of meditation. So even if
(12:50):
you don't believe, like it's a good way of being
reminded of kind of a Buddhist like you are powerless,
you are a thing. You are a person who wants
things that the universe has different ideas sometimes And so
whatever I loved AA, I stayed sober. So that was
(13:13):
That's sort of what happened is I did what they
said and I stayed sober, and I didn't hate myself,
so I kept doing it. And also AA is you know,
for again type a person. I liked knowing that I
was doing something extra, Like I'm an extra person, right,
So for me like AA, like I always go to meetings,
(13:35):
I always have searge position, I always have a sponsor,
like I do the deal, as they say, And you know,
part of that is because I do believe that my
life is on the line. And part of that, I
think over the years became I started to think of
sobriety as a thing that I did, as a thing
I was rewarded with for doing AA perfectly.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Even twelve years later, you're still working your AA program,
And the question I wanted to ask was are you
doing it perfectly?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
So here's where this is recent news and revelations for me.
You know, I said all the right things and meetings there,
but for the grace of God go I like, you know,
one day at a time. And it's not like I
didn't believe those things, but I do believe that. Like
when someone would share that they relapsed, there was a
(14:30):
part of me that was like, well, you're not working
as good a program as I am, you know, like, sorry,
that's terrible. I'm an alcoholic too, right, And then last
month I had a manic episode, the first one I've
had since I got sober. And I will not get
(14:51):
into why it happened because part of what I've come
to realize is it doesn't matter. And also I'll never
really know. I have suspicions it has to do with
the meds and you know, other stuff. But what I
had to come am coming to accept is I thought
(15:13):
about my mental illness kind of the same way, which
is that if I take care of it perfectly, then
I will never have another manic episode. I'm kind of
like I still get depressed, but and that, as you know,
like depression is always a bigger problem for people with
bipolar disorder. Yeah, and I've had treatment resistant depression, but
I haven't had a manic. But I haven't had a
full medic episode. I've had times where I.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Felt walking up the curve, but not all the way
they are.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, but I always also know what to do, like
exercise more, eat right, sleep, you know, meditate, And I
really thought I was managing my bipolar disorder, and kind
of the same way I was managing my addiction, which
is like, all right, perfectly, good job, you know, yeah,
way to go, Like you're going to be set, You're
(15:57):
never going to relapse, You're never gonna have a manic
you know, like manic episode. And then I had one.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And can you just tell the listeners Everyone may not
know what it's like to have a manic episode, if
you're if you're comfortable with it, what it was like
for you.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Oh god, it's hard to describe. And if you're not comfortable,
I can try, because I want people to know it's
you are not yourself. It is and you can interject
with your knowledge. But it's kind of like being psychotic.
It's it is not my personality. It is a version
of me that even I found myself saying and doing
(16:37):
things that like I was angrier and more self pitying
and more impulsive and we're eight like bolder, and I
inside was there was a part of me that was
like what the fuck, Like what is going on?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Huh?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Like this is not you like.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And other people also notice this is not you.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Like, well yeah, because it's part of it. I actually
it was a more extreme manic episode that I've ever had.
I think because I wasn't drinking. I think because there
was no alcohol to like, oh, just put a lid
on it. Put a lid on it. So like I
had times my thoughts were racing so fast I could
barely speak like and that also had never really happened
(17:18):
to that degree. And it is it is. I remember
having kind of a thought within a thought, which is
that if this doesn't stop, I will be creepy, I
will lose it, I will lose my mind, I will
never come back, I will not be able to function
in the world. And like there are parts of it,
there are parts of it I don't remember, you know,
(17:42):
I kind of lost like a week and a half
two weeks in my life. I hurt some people with
my actions just not being people try to help and
be pushing away and like being not graceful about it
and being then being self like asking for help and
(18:03):
rejecting it then acting out. Then I had told people
I didn't have sex with anyone, I didn't overspend, and
I didn't drink, so all in all, it's a win.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Those would be classic manic symptoms.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
So didn't do any of that, and I've had a
lot of I mean, I have, you know, created a
life where I had a lot of like good safety
net stuff you know around me. I kept in touch
with my therapist, I kept in touch with my psychiatrists. I
think for a manic episode, I handled it kind of
(18:38):
the best case you can h but it happened, and
I was powerless to not have it happened. And I'm realizing,
you know a few things. One of them is that
I thought I had accepted my diagnoses in the same
(19:01):
way that I'd accepted my addiction and alcoholism, and that
you know, it's just a part of me, it's who
I am. Not ashamed. Yeah, I don't think i'd fully
like accepted.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, because after you had the manic episode, did you
feel shame or what brought you to this like realization
I have not actually accepted this. I felt a lot
of shame and as an illness I have.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I felt a lot of shame. And you know,
the damage I did to my relationships and it for
me has underscored well. For one thing, it felt a
lot like a relapse. I'm treating it a little bit
like a relapse in the way that I think about
(19:46):
it and the way that I'm handling it, Like I've
kind of been going to more meetings. I've been drawing
on the resources of my friends who are also sober
and people who've been sober longer than I am. And
much like with a relapse, I am trying to not
go around on an apology tour and instead just get better.
(20:08):
But that's what people want for me. As much as
I would like to be forgiven, that's what I would like.
I would like people to tell me it's okay, we understand,
but I can't control that.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, And I think it's exactly right to look at
it as a relapse because that's what it was. So
in medicine, when we have chronic conditions, we call them
relapsing and remitting, meaning when you're not having symptoms of
that illness, it's in remission. And when symptoms of that
(20:41):
illness recur, like you said, can be brought on by
any number of biological, psychological, life stressors, all sorts of things,
that is a relapse. And so, like one of my
soapboxes is that people don't relapse illnesses relapse. One of
the things I love about AA and in A is
(21:05):
this concept of learning from the relapse. What do I
take from this that I can learn that either helps
me prevent the next one, or make the next one shorter,
or decrease the severity of the next one, or understand
what contributed to it. And so I think approaching it
that way with that learning. And then I also think
(21:28):
you said what I would want is for people to
forgive me. I think there's some self forgiveness work here too.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
One of the things I love about AA, and I
mean I genuine it's just a I mean, there are
so many flaws, huge flaws, you know, started by two
rich white guys, and that is its legacy, right, Like
it's built, it's baked in and it's going to take
years and years and years of work to unbake that.
I think it's possible.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
But and I think on baking is in progress.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I do too. I've seen it. Yeah, I have seen
it for sure. I have seen meetings that are people
of color specific meetings. So we're women's meetings, so we're
queer meetings, so we're men's meetings.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Young people meetings. So you know, I'm loving it, you
know what, Like that's right, Yeah, you don't have to
kick people off the island. But it is important to
have safe spaces, right, and so this is actually the
premise of AA is a safe space.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
So women who might feel comfortable having a first step
meeting with this man who feels like he might drink today,
let's do it. You guys, go have your first step meeting.
That's right, and we will continue with our women's meeting.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
You know, that's right. Both and yeah, both and anyway,
so yeah, in you know, uh, I just think I
have a lot of humility, I should say, I hope
I have a lot more humility about how my program
is not perfect and the reason I haven't relapsed well
(22:58):
for me has to do with grace from the universe.
So let's go.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Let's go there, Anna Marie. Because what I really want
people to hear, I think there are so many podcasts
about the devastation of addiction and we have to have
that conversation. And I want this one to literally be
giving people ideas. Everybody's formula is not for you, but
there might be a piece of this formula. There might
(23:24):
be a piece of that person's formula. There might be
a piece of that person's formula that comes together to
make your formula, and so I would love to spend
time on the universe and spirituality as part of your formula.
How does it show up in your life every day?
And how do you That was kind of like a
passive question. I want to be like active about it.
(23:45):
How do you make sure it's showing up in your
life every day?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So it's changed. I think it shows up every day,
whether or not I acknowledge it, okay, And again that's
sort of what has changed because of this this manic episode,
I think is that you know, I thought I was
keeping myself sober by doing all this great work. But
you know what, there have been times in in the
(24:09):
past twelve years, right skipped meetings, there have been times
when I haven't had a sponsor. There have been times
when I haven't had sponsores. There have been times that
I like blew off, you know whatever. And also there
have been times probably when everything came together and lined
up in a way that I might have had a drink,
that I was having a bad day and I was
traveling and airports used to be a thing for me,
(24:30):
and the smell came and I could have done it.
There's like this far away. Yeah, and the universe stepped
in and that's what's kept me sober. I can keep
myself sober on a day to day basis. I do
believe that that I haven't kept myself sober for twelve years.
And this is all I've been joking that this is
like a very complicated version of the when there was
(24:53):
one set of footprints, that's when I was carrying you.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, no, for real. First of all, is like when
I was a kid, my mom used to read that
poem to us and we actually had it on the
wall with the one set of footprints. It's a good
one and the two set of first it's a good one.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
It just yes, it's time basically, Like that's kind of
where I feel like I'm it's dawning on me and
I'm still kind of processing and accepting it. Is that. Yeah,
that my higher power, and I will use the word God,
and God's grace has carried me a lot more than
I realized.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, why does it make you terierry?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Because I do believe in infinite forgiveness, and you know,
I happen to be a Christian. But one of the
reasons I'm a Christian is I was in recovery first,
and the story of Jesus like blows me away the
idea of redemption. Just it's yours half it here. You
(25:57):
don't have to do anything. You are forgiven. You don't
have to ben have to be perfect, you don't have
to do anything, you don't have to say anything. I
have just given you. The universe has just presented you
with this eternal forgiveness, unconditional love, and it is yours
to accept. All you have to do is accept it.
(26:19):
And also, like I'm kind of a CS Lewis Christian.
I don't think that people who don't know about Christianity,
Like I'm not a hell person and I'm not a
person who thinks you have to be a Christian to
accept this grace and goodness. Like I think that it
literally is for everyone. I think it is to say,
like the metaphor heres, you know, someone died for our sins,
(26:40):
But what it means is just this infinite grace, infinite Yeah.
And you know, sometimes I forget that I have that,
that it is mine, if I want it, it is yours. Yeah,
and that I've been given it and used to it
sometimes even without knowing it. And that's the footprints thing right.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's beautiful. It's beautiful, and I think especially I heard
you mentioned CPTSD. Your mom died of alcoholism. I'm so
sorry to hear about that. I think all of the
ways we make people with addiction feel like that grace
is not theirs. Yeah, all of the ways we make
(27:22):
people with addiction feel like they don't deserve that grace.
They don't hold the same value as other people that
don't have bipolar disorder, that don't have alcohol use disorder.
They don't whatever. I can't come up with this next sentence,
but it is always like you don't. You don't write
(27:44):
people with you know.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You know, sexual harms in their history, people who have
yes those things, because AA is full of people who
at one point or another were either preyed upon or
were predators. But grace is for everyone, like grace, and
you can use whatever like I know people, you know,
I'm very also aware that Christianity has caused a lot
of harm over to people, and so I really try
(28:10):
to be generous with the words that I use around this,
and you can kind of come up with whatever creative
ways you want. But I believe the universe existence life
like that it is, there is no there, No one
is holding a grudge against us except us.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
M Wait say that again for me, Anna Marie, I
felt that in my.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Soul no one is holding a grudge against us except us.
I am the only person holding a grudge against me.
The universe, you could even think of it as an
uncaring universe if you want, right, but I think if
it as a benevolent universe, a higher power, spirit, something
beyond my understanding. And that that is grace, that is
just there. That is again there, whether I know it
(28:50):
or not, whether I want it or not. Yes, but
the joy of recovery is noubing it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
And I get to know that. I get to know that.
Earlier in my recovery, I think I was more aware
of this. I used to tell this story, and I'm
now like, oh, yeah, that story, which is that I
am so fortunate to be in recovery and to experience
that grace. Because other people have miracles in their lives.
You know a time when they almost got sick but didn't,
(29:20):
a time when you know, the bus driver breaked for
the light just in time. You know a child you know,
born healthy and not whatever like I do. Believe like
everyone has kind of miracles in their lives. I know
what my miracle is. My miracle is that I'm sober today.
(29:43):
My miracle is that I'm forgiven and I get to
know that and other people they can know it, you know,
Like that's what gratitude. Practicing gratitude is and also practice
of meditation, practice of mindfulness. That is a way to
know what I think your miracles are. Yeah, but you know,
(30:05):
I have a real like, I have a real good one.
And now I guess my experience with this bipolar thing
is actually what I should amend it to is I
have a miracle every day even if I didn't stay sober.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That's what I was thinking about, Anna Marie, because even
when you said airports used to be a thing, right,
it used to be a trigger. And there was a
stressful day and you're away from home and you're traveling,
you don't have your support system, and the smell comes
that you didn't drink that day is a miracle. We
tend to think of miracles as having to be these big,
(30:39):
humongous things. Those are the ones we can recognize.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Well, that is a big humongous thing, exactly every single
day these big, humongous things are happening for us.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
If you think about it existence as a miracle, right, Like,
so even if I did drink, I got a miracle.
And that's the thing that I love that person, and
that's the thing that I think has been missing from
my recovery and been missing and been a missing piece
of the humility that I want to practice. Is that
sobriety isn't the miracle. I mean, it is a miracle
(31:15):
mmm mm hmmm, but it's not the only one I get. Mmm.
Like perhaps even there's an infinite number of miracles. Maybe
I've used to say I'm lucky because I get to
know what my miracle is, but there's no way of
knowing really how many miracles I have today.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, this is this is the point of the podcast
that it's so funny. One of the things I say
is like, they're an infinite number of paths to addiction,
and so they are an infinite number of paths to recovery.
And this is you used those exact words. They're an
infinite number of miracles, right, And so this is what
(31:53):
I want from the listeners. It's like, if this is
calling inside your spirit and feels like a warm blanket.
Take this as part of your formula. If it's not,
that is perfectly fine. You're like some of it, not
all of it. Take some of it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Take what you need and leave the rest. Is what
we say in AA.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Take what you need and leave.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
So I can be kind of defensive about it AA
because I do love it so much, and I do
feel like there's a lot of grace built into it
for people that have problems with it.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I will just take what you need to leave the rest,
even if that means, like you know, saying fuck AA. Fine,
you know, like.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
It doesn't have to be yours, right, like AA doesn't
have to be yours, but find something that is yours.
That's the that's I.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Do believe that some kind of meditative or spiritual practice
is pretty essential to recovery. I actually say I've boiled
it down my theory community service reflection.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Mm hmm, okay, click us in can't get sober alone,
wear pack animal, and you need other people to share
the load.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
You need to hear other people's story. You need to
share your story. So that's the community piece, right, Like
we meet together and we forgive each other and we
can't forgive ourselves. We love each other and we can't
love ourselves. I love all twelve step programs. I'm also
in Adult Children of Alcoholics, which actually, like I love
even more than a.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
It's such.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's a trauma inform program before they were trauma inform programs.
It's amazing. Like, so I love it too.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So I love that I can walk into a meeting
of a twelve step meeting and bear my soul and
those people love me. And it doesn't mean that they're
gonna like hug me, because I actually don't like hug
Those mean they're gonna like talk to me or we
go out for coffee afterwards. It's different. It's just love.
It's just it's unconditional. Yeah, that's why some people say
you can make the group your higher power. Right. So, community,
(33:48):
I think is really important, and it's a community of
shared goal community right shared we're all trying to do
this together. Service I think is very important because it
gets you outside yourself and also it can be a
really good way to cement community. I know I'm a
good talker, but I'm also an introvert and I have
(34:09):
trouble with the meeting before the meeting, and the meeting
after the meeting. H I hate small talk. I'm really
good at going deep. I'm not so good at like
just chatting. And to do service work in the community
is a way to meet people and talk to people
and have a shared understanding and also to get outside yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah, I'm always blessed by the people that ask me
about sobriety, Like that is the gift to me, to
ask me about how I did it. It's a gift
for me to hear their stories. And that's service to
hear someone else's story, to tell your story as a
form of service. I also think in this political climate
that service is powerful because you can do I believe
(34:55):
that activism is service too. I believe like going and
joining ours with my fellow humans to ask for things
that we all deserve is a service. But also I
believe that doing service in AA puts me in contact
or in some other non political context, puts me in
contact with people who maybe I would not always agree with.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yes, yes, but and finds the point of commonality.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So and that is great for reaching beyond like the
circle of recovery, right, like just connecting you to the
larger universe, and also working on humility and working on
resentment yep.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And then the spiritual or meditative practice of reflection, because
I think we can't get sober without having a sober
accounting of who we are, a non judgmental acceptance, and
I think that's something that's been missing for me quite frankly,
like this is what this incident has shown, is that
(35:52):
I've been doing self examination and stopping not opening a
certain door, cleaning out a lot of closets. Ah yeah,
but not that closet, not that one, uh huh, you know,
and maybe some other ones. These all kind of I
think build on each other, by the way, in this order,
because I think that self reflection and meditative practice. The
(36:14):
meditative practice you can do right away, but the reflection
requires some foundation work or sure, because to get back
to like the I want forgiveness from my friends. Something
we talk about in AA all the time is that
amends are not forgiveness, and also forgiveness. You can't ask
(36:38):
for forgiveness unless you've forgiven yourself, because you're then you're
asking for something that's really freighted. You're you're putting a
burden on the person you ask you're saying I need
this from you.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
I need you to forgive me. And actually this is
a social justice thing too, right, Yes, to go to
a reparation exactly where I was going.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Which is it like.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
To be like, okay, here, you know here gear doo,
we built a museum, we're doing some stuff over here,
we have a diversity and equity group.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
We're changing our hiring practices. Now give us a cookie,
give us a forgive us our for goiveness, give us
our white liberal merit rage.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
That yeah, and then can we just be done?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Can we beline right? Like then we can just like okay,
we're done.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
It's all fixed, it's all fixed.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
That's all done fixed. And in some ways, like you know,
like white people have to atone and have to take
a real self inventory about this and come to some
kind of reckoning. Maybe not full self forgiveness, maybe that's
really hard, but you can't be asking for a bit
for someone else, like you have to at least have
the awareness that this is a burden that you've we
(38:00):
you ask for forgiveness, you're creating a burden on someone.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
This is one I could talk to you all day,
except we're getting to the top.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well, I think recovery is a really good framework for
social justice.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yes one. I mean the overlap is it's like not
even overlap, like the same. Yeah, it's the same.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It is a lot about like so acceptance and again
sort of like community service.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Reflection, reflection.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Absolutely, so I want to just finish up on that
part about not asking for forgiveness, which gets us around
to grace right like that is where I have my
work to do right now and dealing with my manic
episode as a form of relapse. My work right now
(38:48):
is to accept grace and also to accept that I
can be okay no matter what else happens. That I
don't need a specific scenario. I don't need my friends.
I think they will. I think I'm making a big
deal out of this kind of like I think they're
probably just asking for some time out. But it was
hard for them to see me do this. It's an
(39:09):
opportunity for me to realize that as good as it
feels to have connection to any individual person, right it
is the more mystical connection and the connection to the group. Again,
if you want to make the hight group your higher power,
that is the one that really feeds me, and that's
(39:29):
just hard to believe sometimes, and that's why I get
terary thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, I mean, you know, we get taught like don't
let your tears fall down your face. And so I'm
really grateful to you for letting us hear your tears
on here, because I think it's just you cry because
(39:54):
it's magnificent and beautiful and powerful and huge and miraculous.
That's worth tears saying.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And I cry over the woman in me that has
trouble accepting it, Like I just want to tell that
child and me, it's okay, you can have this, you
can have this good thing.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah. Yeah, so I usually I'm gonna close us out.
The name of the book is Unaddiction, and we made
up the word unaddictioned six mind changing conversations that could
save a life, and we made up an addiction to
be like, what are the things we need to unlearn?
What are the stigmas we need to undo? What are
(40:37):
the conversations we need to uncover? And so if there
was one thing about recovery or about addiction that you
want to leave people with, that you want them to unlearn,
or this stigma you want us to be proactively undoing
or this conversation you want us to be uncovering, what
(40:59):
would you leave us with?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I think in some ways, like when I think about
what loved ones when I loved ones are always I
get more questions from loved ones of addicts and alcoholics,
of course, than I get from actual addics alcoholics, And
so I'm thinking of them what I would like to
transplant into those brains, And sometimes I forget it myself
(41:23):
because I'm also the loved one of alcoholics. Right, is
that you are actually the person in.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
The worst position to help, Oh wow, because you love
you love so much, and because you already have connections,
and you want.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
And probably and what you want is the old person
back or what things to be like they were before,
which is completely understandable and human and also not helpful
for the person who's trying to figure out out who
they are moving forward, who may be a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
And also there's no way that your love can't come
with strengths attached, because we're human again, human, My love
for my atticts has strings attached. Yeah. And so the
most generous thing you can do is to try and
create a boundary so that that person can get the
(42:29):
help that they need from the people who can help them,
which are the people who can give unconditional love, which
is usually in the rooms of some program of some place.
Like I was saying, like, I can walk into any
kind of twelve step meeting and get that in conditional love.
And that's the love that can provide a structure and
(42:49):
foundation and support for someone in early recovery. That of
course you love that person. Of course there's individual like
I have specific pieces of advice about how you can
support a love wanting for recovery. They generally have to
do with like just make it easy for them to
not drink, like or use or whatever. But you unfortunately,
it's a it's a humility thing too. You perhaps need
(43:13):
to come to terms with the fact that as you
may have brought this person into the world, but that
you are powerless over their disease. And yeah, and that
there is such a thing as loving detachment and it sucks.
And a lot of people I think criticize convention, like
criticize you know, AA and some recovery and some clinical
(43:37):
talk because they think that that's tough love, and it
is not tough. It is not It is you can
support your heart out right. It's just figuring out what
that boundary is between.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
What that supported.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah and love, love your heart out right in some
way you have that. This has to be what happen
to me. My friends. Actually this is a good parallel again,
back when I got sober, my friends are kind of like, yeah,
you need.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Like we're dead and lovingly I love you, and also
you need something more.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Than I can give you, and I had to turn
to other things and thank god, thank god, literally thank
god they were there. So that is kind of what
I would say to loved ones. I mean, what I
would say to someone who's early on or thinking about
getting sober, is you can it is. The miracle is
available to you.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
It is yours.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
It is yours.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I have.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Every single person has it, has it available to them,
and it is just a matter of finding that path,
finding which miracle you want to accept.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I love that so much. Autum Marie, despite the microphone's
best intentions, this will be you heard. Thank you, I
hear you. Thank you so so much.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
This was wonderful, very theory. You touched my heart therapeutic
for me. You know, it's funny. I used to kind
of wave off that kind of compliment because for me,
like again kind of adult child of alcoholic, like kind
of like, oversharing is my thing, but it's funny. I'm
writing a memoir and in the notes section of my manuscript,
(45:29):
like which shows all the time up in the corner,
is a trauma response can also be a superpower? Yes, yes,
and so yeah, like I may feel like sometimes oversharing
is my trauma response and I get a little embarrassed
about it, But then again, it can be a superpower too,
And some people can't do this, some people can't talk
(45:51):
the way that I talk.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
We are Thank you so much for tuning in, and
if you like this episode, please check out my book
An Addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life,
available at Barnesennoble Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold. If you like to this episode,
(46:15):
please share it with someone you think may need to
hear it. Also, please subscribe to this podcast and leave
a five star review that helps us reach any and
everyone who may be looking for support in the face
of addiction.
Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison.
I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction
medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.
On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead
to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.
(00:24):
Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that
have helped them along the way, and the formulas that
allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.
I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned.
Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is
now available from Union Square and Company, or wherever books
(00:46):
are sold. Hono Marie Cox is a political columnist for
The New Republic and a culture critic whose writing has
appeared in Sports Illustrated, The New York Times, NBC dot Com,
and The Cut, where she wrote a column called Sober,
questioning her upcoming whinmar Just Like Your Mother is an
(01:08):
account of addiction, recovery and intergenerational trauma which seeks to
answer the question why did my mother die of her addiction?
But I was able to get sober. In this episode,
we walked through her adverse childhood experiences also known as
aces and mental health difficulties, and how those can put
(01:30):
any of us at risk for developing addiction. Such an
honest and vulnerable conversation, I hope it'll touch you the
way it touched me. Yes, So I have an executive
coach and we're talking about shoulds really come out of
Like you decide the destination, it's X, and then when
you're on a journey it becomes clear to you you're
(01:51):
actually headed to why. You're like, should should should? Should? Should?
And he's like, when reality, this is the quote from
my executive coach in Zinga, it ain't never x okay.
And now this is my manta, it ain't never x okay.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I think there's a lot of truth to that. What
felt true in the conversation I was having with my
friend because we were talking about both being CPTSD survivors,
is there's a lot of unworthiness, Yes, that comes with that.
And I think for her and for me, should is
(02:32):
just always that version of ourselves we think we need
to be in order to be loved and accepted. Yeah,
and so every time we should it's like beating ourselves
up just a little men. And also I've discovered for me,
it's a way of setting myself up to not do
(02:53):
stuff and to set and to perhaps create too many
things that I think I should do. I've been doing
a lot of healing real lately, and one of the
things I've realized is that I've spent a lot of
my life preparing and planning and goal setting and not
(03:14):
so much doing or accepting or resting.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It's a bit of always ahead of the moment as
compared to in the moment mindfulness. And sounds like you're
making a transition. Okay, So I'm going to use this
as a transition to officially jump us into this episode
because this is exactly where I want to go with it,
(03:41):
and I think this is exactly why we have the
podcast to help people understand what different journeys to recovery
look like, what the formula that you're working. And it
sounds like part of your formula is getting to that
being in this moment without judgment, which is not easy, right,
So can we just start with tell us who you are?
(04:05):
This is like the most, this is the most I'm
a psychiatrist to answer question, tell me who you are
and how you came to be?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Oh my god, I teach.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I teach interviewing classes and journalism programs every once in
a while.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And you're like, don't ever ask a question like that.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
No, My cheat code is ask them how they came
to be the person they are. If you run into
a brick wall with somebody and they're like shutting down
or they won't answer, or your questions seem off or whatever,
sometimes how did you become the person that you are
is a way of because there's no simple answer.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, so tell me.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Tell me who I am. I've avoided the question all
I'm the adult child of an alcoholic. I'm really good
at avoiding pople seeing me. I am Anno Marie Cox.
(05:12):
I am a journalist and writer and podcaster. And I
feel comfortable putting those things first, even though they're what
I do for money, because they are very essential to
who I am.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Oh okay, I want to click into that for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I love stories. I love hearing other people's stories. I
love telling my story. I love my favorite thing about teaching.
I also teach about both teaching and journalism. This is
(05:54):
gonna be another parallel to psychology is when you see
that you've helped someone understand something like that light in
a student's eyes, when you've helped them kind of like
get to that click and they understand something they didn't
understand before, is the most satisfying thing that there is.
(06:21):
Second to that same feeling can come from writing. Sometimes
it doesn't come from like in writing. It's usually when
I know that I've hit it, but it's a more
interior thing because I haven't had feedback yet. But like
when I know I've like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I was almost coming back to your second thing I
was going to say, I can imagine seeing that light
is also part of what's rewarding about telling your story,
and I want to start there because Yeah, this is
an addiction the podcast, and one of our main goals
(06:56):
is to uncover the conversations we need to be having.
People can be so afraid because of stigma, because of
the things we think we know. People can be so
afraid of telling their story. But the freedom and the
joy of telling your story and seeing your story turn
the light on behind someone else's eyes, I think is incredible.
(07:22):
Is that part of what you experience when you tell your.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, and it reminds me, you know, before I am
any of those things, I am an alcoholic in recovery,
and recovery is the center, or has to be, even
when I don't realize it's the center of my life,
even when my focus has shifted, if that makes any
sense at all. It is the center of my life
(07:46):
because without my sobriety, I in my connection to my
higher power, which I have. I have a higher power.
It's been helpful to me. I know, different people, different
things that I believe that I'm having. My spiritual connection,
my spiritual well being is the center of who I am,
(08:11):
and it is the thing that allows me to do
all the other things because without it, you know, I
lived for thirty eight years vamping, you know, like I guess,
or you could put it in psychological terms like survival mode,
just trying to get by, just like trying to I
didn't get a lot of good instruction as a kid,
(08:34):
you know, a lot of good patterns, so I was
just like you know, and perfectionism and overachieving we're a
big part of that. And drinking and using drugs to
some extent also a big part of that. And that
(08:55):
was not sustainable for me and I also uh have
bipolar disorder too, and you know it's back.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Home as also or bipolar disorder type.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
To type two. Okay, And that's a part of my story. Uh.
In fact, you can talk more about it. It's actually
a bigger part of my story than I kind of realized. Might.
My bottom as an alcoholic was a pretty serious suicide attempt.
And that is the thing that reminds me that less
(09:31):
I have my spiritual house in order, as they say
in AA, or unless I maintain my connection to my
higher power or spirit of the universe or higher self
or whenever term you want to use, I will die.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
The spakes are the highest.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
One way or another, yep, I drink myself to death
like my mom it, or I will become so unhappy
and desperate and sad and lonely and hopeless, I might
take my own life. So it's a really good I
sometimes say I feel sorry for normal folks because they
don't have to have a spiritual life. They can just
(10:16):
like get along without it. Then I cannot. My life
depends on having some sort of space in my life
for connection to something greater than myself. And maybe that
gets us to talking about bipolar disorder. So I've been
(10:38):
sober for twelve years. Congratulation twelve years and six months
and two days. Okay, because my belly button birthday is
six months away from my sobriety date, so I am
always very aware of the six month the path mark.
And I took to a like it was, you know,
(11:04):
I just loved it. I fell in love. I've been
out in and out before. But then I went to
treatment and I was really resistant at first, and then
I kind of made a deal with myself, which is like,
I have not been this is not I have not
come up with something, and this seems to work for
some people, and so I'll give it a shot. And
(11:25):
because I am a type a perfectionist, overachieving person, I
kind of made a deal with myself that I would
do it like they said, perfectly, and if it didn't work,
I can always drink or kill myself. It's a deal,
like I have to give it a real shot, sort
of like your parents saying, like take a bite and
(11:45):
if you don't like it, then you can, you know,
not eat it, but you have to like have to try,
have to be honest. And so I did the things
that they said and you know, even when it came
to praying, I remember telling my counselor like, I don't
really this feels really dumb because I'm not sure what
I believe and I don't think anyone is listening. And
(12:06):
she was like, doesn't matter, do it anyway? And I
found a reading not then, but I think later that
pointed out something that's been important to me since, which is,
we don't if you believe in a higher power. But
even if you don't, praying is not about letting the
higher power know what you want. If it's a higher power,
(12:29):
if it's all knowing omnip in it, that thing already knows.
We pray to hear ourselves ask And I think it's
a good gut check on what I'm asking for. Is
it something I want or something I need? Is it selfish?
And it's also a form of meditation. So even if
(12:50):
you don't believe, like it's a good way of being
reminded of kind of a Buddhist like you are powerless,
you are a thing. You are a person who wants
things that the universe has different ideas sometimes And so
whatever I loved AA, I stayed sober. So that was
(13:13):
That's sort of what happened is I did what they
said and I stayed sober, and I didn't hate myself,
so I kept doing it. And also AA is you know,
for again type a person. I liked knowing that I
was doing something extra, Like I'm an extra person, right,
So for me like AA, like I always go to meetings,
(13:35):
I always have searge position, I always have a sponsor,
like I do the deal, as they say, And you know,
part of that is because I do believe that my
life is on the line. And part of that, I
think over the years became I started to think of
sobriety as a thing that I did, as a thing
I was rewarded with for doing AA perfectly.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Even twelve years later, you're still working your AA program,
And the question I wanted to ask was are you
doing it perfectly?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
So here's where this is recent news and revelations for me.
You know, I said all the right things and meetings there,
but for the grace of God go I like, you know,
one day at a time. And it's not like I
didn't believe those things, but I do believe that. Like
when someone would share that they relapsed, there was a
(14:30):
part of me that was like, well, you're not working
as good a program as I am, you know, like, sorry,
that's terrible. I'm an alcoholic too, right, And then last
month I had a manic episode, the first one I've
had since I got sober. And I will not get
(14:51):
into why it happened because part of what I've come
to realize is it doesn't matter. And also I'll never
really know. I have suspicions it has to do with
the meds and you know, other stuff. But what I
had to come am coming to accept is I thought
(15:13):
about my mental illness kind of the same way, which
is that if I take care of it perfectly, then
I will never have another manic episode. I'm kind of
like I still get depressed, but and that, as you know,
like depression is always a bigger problem for people with
bipolar disorder. Yeah, and I've had treatment resistant depression, but
I haven't had a manic. But I haven't had a
full medic episode. I've had times where I.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Felt walking up the curve, but not all the way
they are.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, but I always also know what to do, like
exercise more, eat right, sleep, you know, meditate, And I
really thought I was managing my bipolar disorder, and kind
of the same way I was managing my addiction, which
is like, all right, perfectly, good job, you know, yeah,
way to go, Like you're going to be set, You're
(15:57):
never going to relapse, You're never gonna have a manic
you know, like manic episode. And then I had one.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And can you just tell the listeners Everyone may not
know what it's like to have a manic episode, if
you're if you're comfortable with it, what it was like
for you.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Oh god, it's hard to describe. And if you're not comfortable,
I can try, because I want people to know it's
you are not yourself. It is and you can interject
with your knowledge. But it's kind of like being psychotic.
It's it is not my personality. It is a version
of me that even I found myself saying and doing
(16:37):
things that like I was angrier and more self pitying
and more impulsive and we're eight like bolder, and I
inside was there was a part of me that was
like what the fuck, Like what is going on?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Huh?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Like this is not you like.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And other people also notice this is not you.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Like, well yeah, because it's part of it. I actually
it was a more extreme manic episode that I've ever had.
I think because I wasn't drinking. I think because there
was no alcohol to like, oh, just put a lid
on it. Put a lid on it. So like I
had times my thoughts were racing so fast I could
barely speak like and that also had never really happened
(17:18):
to that degree. And it is it is. I remember
having kind of a thought within a thought, which is
that if this doesn't stop, I will be creepy, I
will lose it, I will lose my mind, I will
never come back, I will not be able to function
in the world. And like there are parts of it,
there are parts of it I don't remember, you know,
(17:42):
I kind of lost like a week and a half
two weeks in my life. I hurt some people with
my actions just not being people try to help and
be pushing away and like being not graceful about it
and being then being self like asking for help and
(18:03):
rejecting it then acting out. Then I had told people
I didn't have sex with anyone, I didn't overspend, and
I didn't drink, so all in all, it's a win.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Those would be classic manic symptoms.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
So didn't do any of that, and I've had a
lot of I mean, I have, you know, created a
life where I had a lot of like good safety
net stuff you know around me. I kept in touch
with my therapist, I kept in touch with my psychiatrists. I
think for a manic episode, I handled it kind of
(18:38):
the best case you can h but it happened, and
I was powerless to not have it happened. And I'm realizing,
you know a few things. One of them is that
I thought I had accepted my diagnoses in the same
(19:01):
way that I'd accepted my addiction and alcoholism, and that
you know, it's just a part of me, it's who
I am. Not ashamed. Yeah, I don't think i'd fully
like accepted.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, because after you had the manic episode, did you
feel shame or what brought you to this like realization
I have not actually accepted this. I felt a lot
of shame and as an illness I have.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I felt a lot of shame. And you know,
the damage I did to my relationships and it for
me has underscored well. For one thing, it felt a
lot like a relapse. I'm treating it a little bit
like a relapse in the way that I think about
(19:46):
it and the way that I'm handling it, Like I've
kind of been going to more meetings. I've been drawing
on the resources of my friends who are also sober
and people who've been sober longer than I am. And
much like with a relapse, I am trying to not
go around on an apology tour and instead just get better.
(20:08):
But that's what people want for me. As much as
I would like to be forgiven, that's what I would like.
I would like people to tell me it's okay, we understand,
but I can't control that.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, And I think it's exactly right to look at
it as a relapse because that's what it was. So
in medicine, when we have chronic conditions, we call them
relapsing and remitting, meaning when you're not having symptoms of
that illness, it's in remission. And when symptoms of that
(20:41):
illness recur, like you said, can be brought on by
any number of biological, psychological, life stressors, all sorts of things,
that is a relapse. And so, like one of my
soapboxes is that people don't relapse illnesses relapse. One of
the things I love about AA and in A is
(21:05):
this concept of learning from the relapse. What do I
take from this that I can learn that either helps
me prevent the next one, or make the next one shorter,
or decrease the severity of the next one, or understand
what contributed to it. And so I think approaching it
that way with that learning. And then I also think
(21:28):
you said what I would want is for people to
forgive me. I think there's some self forgiveness work here too.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
One of the things I love about AA, and I
mean I genuine it's just a I mean, there are
so many flaws, huge flaws, you know, started by two
rich white guys, and that is its legacy, right, Like
it's built, it's baked in and it's going to take
years and years and years of work to unbake that.
I think it's possible.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
But and I think on baking is in progress.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I do too. I've seen it. Yeah, I have seen
it for sure. I have seen meetings that are people
of color specific meetings. So we're women's meetings, so we're
queer meetings, so we're men's meetings.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Young people meetings. So you know, I'm loving it, you
know what, Like that's right, Yeah, you don't have to
kick people off the island. But it is important to
have safe spaces, right, and so this is actually the
premise of AA is a safe space.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
So women who might feel comfortable having a first step
meeting with this man who feels like he might drink today,
let's do it. You guys, go have your first step meeting.
That's right, and we will continue with our women's meeting.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
You know, that's right. Both and yeah, both and anyway,
so yeah, in you know, uh, I just think I
have a lot of humility, I should say, I hope
I have a lot more humility about how my program
is not perfect and the reason I haven't relapsed well
(22:58):
for me has to do with grace from the universe.
So let's go.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Let's go there, Anna Marie. Because what I really want
people to hear, I think there are so many podcasts
about the devastation of addiction and we have to have
that conversation. And I want this one to literally be
giving people ideas. Everybody's formula is not for you, but
there might be a piece of this formula. There might
(23:24):
be a piece of that person's formula. There might be
a piece of that person's formula that comes together to
make your formula, and so I would love to spend
time on the universe and spirituality as part of your formula.
How does it show up in your life every day?
And how do you That was kind of like a
passive question. I want to be like active about it.
(23:45):
How do you make sure it's showing up in your
life every day?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So it's changed. I think it shows up every day,
whether or not I acknowledge it, okay, And again that's
sort of what has changed because of this this manic episode,
I think is that you know, I thought I was
keeping myself sober by doing all this great work. But
you know what, there have been times in in the
(24:09):
past twelve years, right skipped meetings, there have been times
when I haven't had a sponsor. There have been times
when I haven't had sponsores. There have been times that
I like blew off, you know whatever. And also there
have been times probably when everything came together and lined
up in a way that I might have had a drink,
that I was having a bad day and I was
traveling and airports used to be a thing for me,
(24:30):
and the smell came and I could have done it.
There's like this far away. Yeah, and the universe stepped
in and that's what's kept me sober. I can keep
myself sober on a day to day basis. I do
believe that that I haven't kept myself sober for twelve years.
And this is all I've been joking that this is
like a very complicated version of the when there was
(24:53):
one set of footprints, that's when I was carrying you.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, no, for real. First of all, is like when
I was a kid, my mom used to read that
poem to us and we actually had it on the
wall with the one set of footprints. It's a good
one and the two set of first it's a good one.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
It just yes, it's time basically, Like that's kind of
where I feel like I'm it's dawning on me and
I'm still kind of processing and accepting it. Is that. Yeah,
that my higher power, and I will use the word God,
and God's grace has carried me a lot more than
I realized.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, why does it make you terierry?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Because I do believe in infinite forgiveness, and you know,
I happen to be a Christian. But one of the
reasons I'm a Christian is I was in recovery first,
and the story of Jesus like blows me away the
idea of redemption. Just it's yours half it here. You
(25:57):
don't have to do anything. You are forgiven. You don't
have to ben have to be perfect, you don't have
to do anything, you don't have to say anything. I
have just given you. The universe has just presented you
with this eternal forgiveness, unconditional love, and it is yours
to accept. All you have to do is accept it.
(26:19):
And also, like I'm kind of a CS Lewis Christian.
I don't think that people who don't know about Christianity,
Like I'm not a hell person and I'm not a
person who thinks you have to be a Christian to
accept this grace and goodness. Like I think that it
literally is for everyone. I think it is to say,
like the metaphor heres, you know, someone died for our sins,
(26:40):
But what it means is just this infinite grace, infinite Yeah.
And you know, sometimes I forget that I have that,
that it is mine, if I want it, it is yours. Yeah,
and that I've been given it and used to it
sometimes even without knowing it. And that's the footprints thing right.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's beautiful. It's beautiful, and I think especially I heard
you mentioned CPTSD. Your mom died of alcoholism. I'm so
sorry to hear about that. I think all of the
ways we make people with addiction feel like that grace
is not theirs. Yeah, all of the ways we make
(27:22):
people with addiction feel like they don't deserve that grace.
They don't hold the same value as other people that
don't have bipolar disorder, that don't have alcohol use disorder.
They don't whatever. I can't come up with this next sentence,
but it is always like you don't. You don't write
(27:44):
people with you know.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You know, sexual harms in their history, people who have
yes those things, because AA is full of people who
at one point or another were either preyed upon or
were predators. But grace is for everyone, like grace, and
you can use whatever like I know people, you know,
I'm very also aware that Christianity has caused a lot
of harm over to people, and so I really try
(28:10):
to be generous with the words that I use around this,
and you can kind of come up with whatever creative
ways you want. But I believe the universe existence life
like that it is, there is no there, No one
is holding a grudge against us except us.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
M Wait say that again for me, Anna Marie, I
felt that in my.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Soul no one is holding a grudge against us except us.
I am the only person holding a grudge against me.
The universe, you could even think of it as an
uncaring universe if you want, right, but I think if
it as a benevolent universe, a higher power, spirit, something
beyond my understanding. And that that is grace, that is
just there. That is again there, whether I know it
(28:50):
or not, whether I want it or not. Yes, but
the joy of recovery is noubing it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
And I get to know that. I get to know that.
Earlier in my recovery, I think I was more aware
of this. I used to tell this story, and I'm
now like, oh, yeah, that story, which is that I
am so fortunate to be in recovery and to experience
that grace. Because other people have miracles in their lives.
You know a time when they almost got sick but didn't,
(29:20):
a time when you know, the bus driver breaked for
the light just in time. You know a child you know,
born healthy and not whatever like I do. Believe like
everyone has kind of miracles in their lives. I know
what my miracle is. My miracle is that I'm sober today.
(29:43):
My miracle is that I'm forgiven and I get to
know that and other people they can know it, you know,
Like that's what gratitude. Practicing gratitude is and also practice
of meditation, practice of mindfulness. That is a way to
know what I think your miracles are. Yeah, but you know,
(30:05):
I have a real like, I have a real good one.
And now I guess my experience with this bipolar thing
is actually what I should amend it to is I
have a miracle every day even if I didn't stay sober.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That's what I was thinking about, Anna Marie, because even
when you said airports used to be a thing, right,
it used to be a trigger. And there was a
stressful day and you're away from home and you're traveling,
you don't have your support system, and the smell comes
that you didn't drink that day is a miracle. We
tend to think of miracles as having to be these big,
(30:39):
humongous things. Those are the ones we can recognize.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Well, that is a big humongous thing, exactly every single
day these big, humongous things are happening for us.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
If you think about it existence as a miracle, right, Like,
so even if I did drink, I got a miracle.
And that's the thing that I love that person, and
that's the thing that I think has been missing from
my recovery and been missing and been a missing piece
of the humility that I want to practice. Is that
sobriety isn't the miracle. I mean, it is a miracle
(31:15):
mmm mm hmmm, but it's not the only one I get. Mmm.
Like perhaps even there's an infinite number of miracles. Maybe
I've used to say I'm lucky because I get to
know what my miracle is, but there's no way of
knowing really how many miracles I have today.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, this is this is the point of the podcast
that it's so funny. One of the things I say
is like, they're an infinite number of paths to addiction,
and so they are an infinite number of paths to recovery.
And this is you used those exact words. They're an
infinite number of miracles, right, And so this is what
(31:53):
I want from the listeners. It's like, if this is
calling inside your spirit and feels like a warm blanket.
Take this as part of your formula. If it's not,
that is perfectly fine. You're like some of it, not
all of it. Take some of it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Take what you need and leave the rest. Is what
we say in AA.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Take what you need and leave.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
So I can be kind of defensive about it AA
because I do love it so much, and I do
feel like there's a lot of grace built into it
for people that have problems with it.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I will just take what you need to leave the rest,
even if that means, like you know, saying fuck AA. Fine,
you know, like.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
It doesn't have to be yours, right, like AA doesn't
have to be yours, but find something that is yours.
That's the that's I.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Do believe that some kind of meditative or spiritual practice
is pretty essential to recovery. I actually say I've boiled
it down my theory community service reflection.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Mm hmm, okay, click us in can't get sober alone,
wear pack animal, and you need other people to share
the load.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
You need to hear other people's story. You need to
share your story. So that's the community piece, right, Like
we meet together and we forgive each other and we
can't forgive ourselves. We love each other and we can't
love ourselves. I love all twelve step programs. I'm also
in Adult Children of Alcoholics, which actually, like I love
even more than a.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
It's such.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's a trauma inform program before they were trauma inform programs.
It's amazing. Like, so I love it too.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So I love that I can walk into a meeting
of a twelve step meeting and bear my soul and
those people love me. And it doesn't mean that they're
gonna like hug me, because I actually don't like hug
Those mean they're gonna like talk to me or we
go out for coffee afterwards. It's different. It's just love.
It's just it's unconditional. Yeah, that's why some people say
you can make the group your higher power. Right. So, community,
(33:48):
I think is really important, and it's a community of
shared goal community right shared we're all trying to do
this together. Service I think is very important because it
gets you outside yourself and also it can be a
really good way to cement community. I know I'm a
good talker, but I'm also an introvert and I have
(34:09):
trouble with the meeting before the meeting, and the meeting
after the meeting. H I hate small talk. I'm really
good at going deep. I'm not so good at like
just chatting. And to do service work in the community
is a way to meet people and talk to people
and have a shared understanding and also to get outside yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah, I'm always blessed by the people that ask me
about sobriety, Like that is the gift to me, to
ask me about how I did it. It's a gift
for me to hear their stories. And that's service to
hear someone else's story, to tell your story as a
form of service. I also think in this political climate
that service is powerful because you can do I believe
(34:55):
that activism is service too. I believe like going and
joining ours with my fellow humans to ask for things
that we all deserve is a service. But also I
believe that doing service in AA puts me in contact
or in some other non political context, puts me in
contact with people who maybe I would not always agree with.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yes, yes, but and finds the point of commonality.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So and that is great for reaching beyond like the
circle of recovery, right, like just connecting you to the
larger universe, and also working on humility and working on
resentment yep.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And then the spiritual or meditative practice of reflection, because
I think we can't get sober without having a sober
accounting of who we are, a non judgmental acceptance, and
I think that's something that's been missing for me quite frankly,
like this is what this incident has shown, is that
(35:52):
I've been doing self examination and stopping not opening a
certain door, cleaning out a lot of closets. Ah yeah,
but not that closet, not that one, uh huh, you know,
and maybe some other ones. These all kind of I
think build on each other, by the way, in this order,
because I think that self reflection and meditative practice. The
(36:14):
meditative practice you can do right away, but the reflection
requires some foundation work or sure, because to get back
to like the I want forgiveness from my friends. Something
we talk about in AA all the time is that
amends are not forgiveness, and also forgiveness. You can't ask
(36:38):
for forgiveness unless you've forgiven yourself, because you're then you're
asking for something that's really freighted. You're you're putting a
burden on the person you ask you're saying I need
this from you.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
I need you to forgive me. And actually this is
a social justice thing too, right, Yes, to go to
a reparation exactly where I was going.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Which is it like.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
To be like, okay, here, you know here gear doo,
we built a museum, we're doing some stuff over here,
we have a diversity and equity group.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
We're changing our hiring practices. Now give us a cookie,
give us a forgive us our for goiveness, give us
our white liberal merit rage.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
That yeah, and then can we just be done?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Can we beline right? Like then we can just like okay,
we're done.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
It's all fixed, it's all fixed.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
That's all done fixed. And in some ways, like you know,
like white people have to atone and have to take
a real self inventory about this and come to some
kind of reckoning. Maybe not full self forgiveness, maybe that's
really hard, but you can't be asking for a bit
for someone else, like you have to at least have
the awareness that this is a burden that you've we
(38:00):
you ask for forgiveness, you're creating a burden on someone.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
This is one I could talk to you all day,
except we're getting to the top.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well, I think recovery is a really good framework for
social justice.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yes one. I mean the overlap is it's like not
even overlap, like the same. Yeah, it's the same.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It is a lot about like so acceptance and again
sort of like community service.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Reflection, reflection.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Absolutely, so I want to just finish up on that
part about not asking for forgiveness, which gets us around
to grace right like that is where I have my
work to do right now and dealing with my manic
episode as a form of relapse. My work right now
(38:48):
is to accept grace and also to accept that I
can be okay no matter what else happens. That I
don't need a specific scenario. I don't need my friends.
I think they will. I think I'm making a big
deal out of this kind of like I think they're
probably just asking for some time out. But it was
hard for them to see me do this. It's an
(39:09):
opportunity for me to realize that as good as it
feels to have connection to any individual person, right it
is the more mystical connection and the connection to the group. Again,
if you want to make the hight group your higher power,
that is the one that really feeds me, and that's
(39:29):
just hard to believe sometimes, and that's why I get
terary thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, I mean, you know, we get taught like don't
let your tears fall down your face. And so I'm
really grateful to you for letting us hear your tears
on here, because I think it's just you cry because
(39:54):
it's magnificent and beautiful and powerful and huge and miraculous.
That's worth tears saying.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And I cry over the woman in me that has
trouble accepting it, Like I just want to tell that
child and me, it's okay, you can have this, you
can have this good thing.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah. Yeah, so I usually I'm gonna close us out.
The name of the book is Unaddiction, and we made
up the word unaddictioned six mind changing conversations that could
save a life, and we made up an addiction to
be like, what are the things we need to unlearn?
What are the stigmas we need to undo? What are
(40:37):
the conversations we need to uncover? And so if there
was one thing about recovery or about addiction that you
want to leave people with, that you want them to unlearn,
or this stigma you want us to be proactively undoing
or this conversation you want us to be uncovering, what
(40:59):
would you leave us with?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I think in some ways, like when I think about
what loved ones when I loved ones are always I
get more questions from loved ones of addicts and alcoholics,
of course, than I get from actual addics alcoholics, And
so I'm thinking of them what I would like to
transplant into those brains, And sometimes I forget it myself
(41:23):
because I'm also the loved one of alcoholics. Right, is
that you are actually the person in.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
The worst position to help, Oh wow, because you love
you love so much, and because you already have connections,
and you want.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
And probably and what you want is the old person
back or what things to be like they were before,
which is completely understandable and human and also not helpful
for the person who's trying to figure out out who
they are moving forward, who may be a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
And also there's no way that your love can't come
with strengths attached, because we're human again, human, My love
for my atticts has strings attached. Yeah. And so the
most generous thing you can do is to try and
create a boundary so that that person can get the
(42:29):
help that they need from the people who can help them,
which are the people who can give unconditional love, which
is usually in the rooms of some program of some place.
Like I was saying, like, I can walk into any
kind of twelve step meeting and get that in conditional love.
And that's the love that can provide a structure and
(42:49):
foundation and support for someone in early recovery. That of
course you love that person. Of course there's individual like
I have specific pieces of advice about how you can
support a love wanting for recovery. They generally have to
do with like just make it easy for them to
not drink, like or use or whatever. But you unfortunately,
it's a it's a humility thing too. You perhaps need
(43:13):
to come to terms with the fact that as you
may have brought this person into the world, but that
you are powerless over their disease. And yeah, and that
there is such a thing as loving detachment and it sucks.
And a lot of people I think criticize convention, like
criticize you know, AA and some recovery and some clinical
(43:37):
talk because they think that that's tough love, and it
is not tough. It is not It is you can
support your heart out right. It's just figuring out what
that boundary is between.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
What that supported.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah and love, love your heart out right in some
way you have that. This has to be what happen
to me. My friends. Actually this is a good parallel again,
back when I got sober, my friends are kind of like, yeah,
you need.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Like we're dead and lovingly I love you, and also
you need something more.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Than I can give you, and I had to turn
to other things and thank god, thank god, literally thank
god they were there. So that is kind of what
I would say to loved ones. I mean, what I
would say to someone who's early on or thinking about
getting sober, is you can it is. The miracle is
available to you.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
It is yours.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
It is yours.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I have.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Every single person has it, has it available to them,
and it is just a matter of finding that path,
finding which miracle you want to accept.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I love that so much. Autum Marie, despite the microphone's
best intentions, this will be you heard. Thank you, I
hear you. Thank you so so much.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
This was wonderful, very theory. You touched my heart therapeutic
for me. You know, it's funny. I used to kind
of wave off that kind of compliment because for me,
like again kind of adult child of alcoholic, like kind
of like, oversharing is my thing, but it's funny. I'm
writing a memoir and in the notes section of my manuscript,
(45:29):
like which shows all the time up in the corner,
is a trauma response can also be a superpower? Yes, yes,
and so yeah, like I may feel like sometimes oversharing
is my trauma response and I get a little embarrassed
about it, But then again, it can be a superpower too,
And some people can't do this, some people can't talk
(45:51):
the way that I talk.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
We are Thank you so much for tuning in, and
if you like this episode, please check out my book
An Addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life,
available at Barnesennoble Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon,
and wherever books are sold. If you like to this episode,
(46:15):
please share it with someone you think may need to
hear it. Also, please subscribe to this podcast and leave
a five star review that helps us reach any and
everyone who may be looking for support in the face
of addiction.
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