Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, and welcome to season five of Untold Stories Like
with a severe autoimmune condition, I'm Martine Hackett. In season five,
we're digging deeper than ever into what it means to
begin again with conditions like Mayasthenia gravis or MG and
chronic inflammatory to myelinating polyneuropathy otherwise known as CIDP. Life
rarely follows a straight path, but for people living with
(00:32):
MG and CIDP, the journey changes after diagnosis, setbacks, or
even typical major milestones like aging, parenting, and more. Through
new Untold Stories, we hear from people who are both
living with conditions like MG or CIDP and finding their
inner strength, joy, and redefining each stage of their lives
(00:54):
on their own terms. Today we meet Trent. He was
a new dad and thriving in a care he loved
when everything changed. What followed was a long and uncertain road,
one that made him question his health, his identity, and
even his purpose for living. And as you'll hear, that
same road eventually led him somewhere beautiful, unexpected, and toward
(01:18):
a kind of strength he never knew he had. Let's
meet him now. First of all, Trent, thank you so
much for joining us here today, and I look forward
to just hearing more about your story.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Grateful to be here, grateful of the Outdarney.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So, Trent, take us back to when your symptoms first began.
What was your life like then?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It was wonderful, it was chaotic. I guess I had
a wonderful job. I was working on the east coast
of Florida. My territories every day were the beaches of Florida.
I was looking at cars all day. So it's just,
you know, the ultimate guy's dream. I had two maybe twins.
They were seven months old. They had a traumatic beginning,
a lot of time in the NICKU, but we finally
had him home, and yeah, we're trying to kind of
(02:05):
build that new life you know that everybody dreams of,
I think as a parent. Yeah, and that was upended
almost overnight.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
We hear this from so many of our guests that
life changes overnight. One day, life feels full and familiar,
and the next you're facing questions you never thought you'd
have to answer. For Trent, this was the beginning of
a journey of strength. He never imagined he'd have to
go on. Wow, and what do you remember was the
(02:37):
first sign that something was really wrong.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
And I worked a lot, and I'd spent a lot
of time obviously in the nicku, and I was tired,
but I was managing it, I think pretty well. But
about two days before I started finding where my exhaustion
was just not manageable. And it didn't matter how much
sleep I got, how well I ate exercise or anything
like that, none of it mattered. Suddenly my shoulders would
droop and I couldn't, you know, everything felt like I
(03:01):
was carrying Maybe everything felt like I was carrying weights
around my job looking at cars, I'd go to body
shops and I got underneath the car. I was trying
to do an inspection on it. And I remember the car,
the color and everything. But I was underneath the car
and my legs were not strong enough to get out.
My legs were strong enough to where they should have
been able to I was acting enough, but they wouldn't
(03:22):
do what I told them to do. I was able
to use my arms and push the frame rails to
be able to get out from underneath it. The day
after that was kind of a similar situation. Looking at
a vehicle. I had a guy that was riding with
me that I knew, and I had my cell phone.
This was back in the flip phone days, and I
needed to make a phone call and I flipped the
(03:43):
phone open and it fell out of my hand. Then
it did it again, and it did it again, and
the guy next to me, with good friends, we were
just kind of laughing about it. You know, he's joking
about me drinking on the job or you know, something
to that effect. When we were done and I needed
to at the end of the day go home. It's
a straight shot, just one street all the way down
and then a right hand turned to get to my
(04:04):
house six miles. It took me two hours to get there.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I could not get my right foot to go to
the gas pedal or go to the break without help.
But I still in typical Trent fashion, wrote it off
to just being tired. We had vacation that was coming up,
and I just I kept telling my wife that I
think my body's in vacation mode a little early, but
(04:28):
she disagreed, and she contacted the doctor and the doctor said,
I want him in here first thing tomorrow morning. I
just kept getting worse throughout the night. I went from
standing walking, moving on my own to flat out couldn't
feel anything and was struggling to breathe. It was unreal.
I think it's for anybody who's in a situation that
comes on, and especially when you're losing control of your body. Yeah,
(04:51):
it's not easy to come up with solutions as quite
goods you need to.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, not part of the plan for sure.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
No, No, definitely not so.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Trent, what was going through after losing control of your legs?
What did you think could possibly be the cause?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I wasn't sure. I mean what I had remembered, and
I guess I just started trying to piece together the
last six months or seven months of anything it could
have happened. So I just didn't know. I was certainly
was scared to death, you know, as my first fear
was what are Nicole and the kid's going to do
if I'm gone? Oh gosh, And that one I could
not let go of. And I think that fear is
a powerful, powerful weapon, and you know, it affects everything,
(05:29):
your immune system, your mindset, and it was doing the
exact same thing to me.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, fear has a way of showing up before answers do.
For Trent, it wasn't the fear of what was happening
to his body, but the deeper fear of what would
happened to his family if he couldn't push through. And so,
how did your symptoms progress from there?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
When my physician saw me the next morning, end of
December sixteenth, he could tell that I was but he
needed some testing, did some reflex testing. Everything was delayed,
but it was the respiratory distress was what really got him.
He said, you're going to the hospital right now. So
I did. I went just to get X rayed first,
which you get a cet exam. I laid down for
(06:16):
the ct exam, and then after that, I said, okay,
you can get up and get dressed and get ready
to go. And it didn't take ten minutes for me
to realize I can't get up.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Oh god.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And it wasn't just my legs, it was my arms.
It felt like I guess when you go to the
dentist office and you get that thing you put on
your chest to take an extray led vest. That's how
it felt, right, Yeah, And I just felt like there
was no ability to move.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You were a fit guy, you know, you were active,
You're a family man, and this onset obviously, like you said,
kind of really is like challenging your sense of identity
and self very much.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
So, there's so many things with illness or injury. I
think with people, especially your immediate thoughts never go to
that it's going to be okay, mm hmm. It's just
that fear kicks in before anything else, and so you
start to calculate the percentages of what's going to happen.
You know, it's like, am I going to be paralyzed?
Am I going to be sick for six months? Twelve months?
(07:13):
Am I going to die?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Like mapping it out in your head, like yeah, doing
the calculations.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Right, and none of it being positive.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, Trent, you were initially diagnosed with Gillon Beret syndrome,
but then you received the CIDP diagnosis. How did it
change your expectations for recovery knowing that unlike GBS, CIDP
is chronic.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
The only information I really had was that I'd just
be dealing with nerve pain and things like that. And
you know, it was like a dealt with pain before,
so no big deal.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
CIDP can look like GBS with sudden onset of symptoms
like weakness, numbness and even paralysis, but CIDP. Lingers Trent
had a moment when he started to improve but then
went downhill again. That's when he and his team knew
it was CIDP.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The initial diagnosis made more sense based on the speed
of what had happened, but when I started to improve
and then I went downhill again, then it was clearly
was something else. Because the odds of a relapse is
pretty small in Giambre. It's still there, but it's small,
I see. So I listened to the doctors. I tried
to best understand kind of what they face, but it's
(08:27):
still a rare condition.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, And how do you view yourself now as compared
to the you before you were diagnosed?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I think probably before, if I'm completely honest, I was
probably lost. I didn't feel like I was I was
doing things. I was doing parenting, I was doing marriage right,
I was doing work, but none of those contributed to
really who I was as a person. But when CIDP
occurred and all those things were taken away from me.
(08:56):
As my children were starting to take their first steps,
I was taking my last ones, it was really an
opportunity to examine that I'm a lot of things, but
probably the most important thing is I'm a good dad.
How many dads out there do you think you know,
or are you've spoken to or met, who would kill
for the opportunity to spend every day with their kids
in the formative time of their life. I mean, I
(09:18):
lost my job, I lost, you know, again, the mobility.
My wife had to become the provider. But I was
there every day with my kids. You gain that, yeah,
and they did too, and I think we've seen that
impact on.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Who they are now.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Excellent, Trent.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
You've talked about your daughter's prayer and how it changed everything.
Can you tell us about that and how it changed you?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So faith has always been really the cornerstone of our
life as a family. That particular day, you know, she's
a daddy's girl and Logan's and mama's boy.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That works out.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I'm in my wheelchair and I'm trying to catch up
to her to go back to her room because she's
rushing back there ready for her prayers. And she didn't
even wait for me. She got down on her knees
and she put her hands together and her head down,
and she was absolutely dialed in. Nothing was going to
distract her, and she just said, Dear God, in this
new year, I want my daddy to feel better. I
(10:11):
want my daddy to walk again.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Oh bye. Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
It was powerful. I think it was just a shock,
not shock it in terms of the fact that she
prayed for me, but the specificity of the prayer. And
that was a Saturday. My first day back in the
pool and physical therapy was Monday, and by that time
I've been paralyzed three times. So I was in the
water with the physical therapists. I couldn't get in by myself.
I couldn't function enough without drowning, so my physical therapist
(10:38):
was in there with me. We probably were in there,
I think seven or eight steps. And then she was
about to put her hand back. I think it was
on my right hip to move it forward, and it
moved on its own.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Huh wow.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And the only thing I knew because I couldn't feel
my legs, but I could feel my hip. I could
feel the top where she would put her hand, and
I knew her hand wasn't there, and yet I'd still progressed,
and she and I looked at each other. I mean
it was it was almost something like out of a
comic strip because our heads snapped looking at each other.
What was that?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And I was like, I think I moved, So of
course the next response was do it again. Yeah, I
have no idea how I did it, you know. It's
like I don't know, like, uh, okay, you know. And
I think I may have been able to do it
one more time that day, but I think at some
point I was over concentrating on something that I didn't
fully understand. But that was the beginning of something. From
(11:31):
there on out, it was gangbusters because suddenly everything I'd
been told couldn't happen, and what never happen was happening.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And so after as you say, five years, ten months,
twenty five days and five point five hours, what was
that like to take your first steps again?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I really had no control. I think it was probably
twenty twenty five steps. It was just this moment of
complete surrender was completely dialed out, the moment of trying
to make this repetition go over. I didn't want to
lose what I was doing. Couldn't feel the legs. I
had to watch them to see where to put them.
I could only use my hips because I didn't have
full control of the muscles of my legs.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So, I mean, let's not under sell that you went
from paralysis to now running and being an endurance athlete.
Can you talk a little bit more about that journey.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Sure. So it came from the Adaptive Training Foundation. It
was born of the heart of a former NFL linebacker.
We started out in this really small gym. It was
just terrible, but it was perfect because you had no
choice but to be close to people. A large number
of people that go through the program are wounded vets
and first responders. So many of these became my friends,
(12:42):
very very close friends, even to this day. And the
stories of the struggles and the witnesses of the struggles,
especially the mental health struggles of people that have been
through so much. I mean, I saw firsthand struggles of
people that I wondered if I'd see them the next day,
and I felt so incredibly helpless to it. So when
you go through the program, they ask you at the end,
(13:02):
they said, well, what do you want to do next?
So it's just it's part of that. You know, this
is not going to stop here, it's not done here.
So when I graduated, they asked me, what would you
like to do, and I said I want to do
an iron Man, and they're super supportive. There's like, oh, like,
that's gonna be fantastic because there are obviously para athletes everywhere,
and the things that we're able to do, I think, yeah,
shock the world. Until they see it done and they're like,
(13:24):
all right, well, let's put you on a program like
we can probably get you in the next two or
three years. It was like, no, I'm going to do
the next one I can find.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And they're like, all right, you know last week you
just took your first steps.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Now you want to do an iron Man as soon
as possible. Okay, we'll be back with more untold stories
after a quick break. As a global immunology company committed
to improving the lives of people suffering from severe autoimmune conditions,
our Genics is dedicated to shining a light on resources
(13:58):
that support the CIDP or chronic inflammatory demilinating polynorropathy community.
Shining through CIDP is a website that aims to help
those living with CIDP and their caregivers by providing reliable information,
helpful tips, and relatable stories of both trial and triumph
featuring people with CIDP like you. Shining through CIDP features
(14:21):
real stories, tips on emotional self care, and new ideas
to help navigate the CIDP journey. For more information, visit
Shining through CIDP dot com. And now back to untold stories.
(14:45):
Going from not being able to move to becoming an
endurance athlete isn't just about muscle, It's about mindset. For Trent,
this wasn't a solo climb. It meant surrounding himself with
people who also faced the unthinkable and chose day after
day to keep moving forward, sometimes literally. And Trent did.
(15:06):
He actually did do the next iron man he could find,
and as you'll hear, that's where the real healing began.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I had an opportunity to maybe bring awareness to what
was happening, and I plastered my uniform and my helmet
with bumper stickers of an organization. It's called One Tribe Foundation,
but they were called twenty two Kill and there focuses
the mental health of that population. And it was in
(15:35):
New Orleans, so it was right by a military based
military installation, and so they were out on the streets
they were helping and every one of them had pass
I'd wave at them and I'd point to my helmet
or I'd point to you know, what I was wearing
on my chest. It was like this is for you.
It's like this is not for me.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And the impact was unreal from the very beginning. The
reason I'd do it is to have whatever little impact
I can on this earth on other people so that
they choose hope.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And it sounds like it's also given you that you know,
growth and resilience as well.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And it taught me more than I could have ever expected,
because I constantly stuck with the focus of reminding myself,
this is not about me, and it never can be.
The mission has always been the same. You know, the
medals don't make a difference to me. I've given the
medals away to gold Star families. To a neighbor's son
who's the sweetest kid in the world who follow Kemia,
(16:32):
I gave him one of my medals.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
The reason I do it is to have whatever little
impact I can on this earth on other people so
that they choose hope. And I think that's one of
the reasons where the medals every middle I get though
the organization finds out they sent me another one so
that I'll have my own. Stop giving these away for you,
(16:54):
I know, well some of them have given me extra
so that I can give them away. But you know,
my wife gave me somewhere to put my medals on
the wall. But I just don't look at it, and it.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Sounds like your growth has not stopped. I mean, you
mentioned you've won multiple national titles, world championships, and more.
What's next? What drives you to keep pushing these limits?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I guess are a few different reasons. One is obviously
the impact that I saw in the people that need hope.
We started a nonprofit called Try Hope. Its whole entire
focus is to try to utilize the opportunities that we
have to share hope with others and watch it grow.
And that's what I found. I mean, I had people
that would stop me at races, and you know sometimes
(17:33):
mid race, you're like, I'm busy here right, Well, unfortunately
it's usually in the transitionaries where we go from one
step to the other, but and hug me and just
tell me what it meant to their lives at that point.
I try to encourage people that when you see somebody
that looks like they're going through a difficult time, or
somebody that's alone, or somebody that may look or act differently.
(17:54):
Is to engage them, because that's singular engagement that one opportunity,
maybe coarse correction to their life. I mean a mind
was changed by a prayer, and it was changed by
the Adaptive Training Foundation, and it was changed by the
people that you know, the tribe that I have that
support me and even Gunner, my service dog helping me
(18:16):
get through the difficult times, by my family. Never underestimate
the impact you can have on somebody. And what you
think is the simplest of times, you may be the
lifeline that they needed.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, and you never know when that's going to be.
As you hear in his voice, it wasn't just one
act that changed his life. It was a community the
people who showed up when he needed them the most.
And it didn't just help him heal, it inspired him
to do the same for others.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
When I got the gold medal at the World Championships,
I knew who deserved it. It wasn't me, And so
when they put it around my neck, my wife was
standing right there and I put it around hers.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That I've been blessed with in my life. I didn't deserve.
There's nothing in particular that I didn't deserve that, but
my gratitude to it is something I could never never
let go of. And to help people experience gratitude and
understand that part of that, you can be grateful even
for the worst things that have ever happened to you.
(19:20):
And I haven't announced this yet, but if you're okay
with me announcing it here, the next thing that I
plan to do is swim the entire Tennessee River Wow,
which is six hundred and fifty two miles. I've come
to have a love and appreciation for the water that
I didn't have before. I was afraid of the water,
I guess for a little while because of the feelings
(19:41):
that came from the embolisms. Because after the embolisms, I
was found to about sixteen or eighteen percent of my
lungs wow, and the fear was just too intense. And
so one of the ways I taught myself how to
breathe again was music. So I listened to music and
would try to hum. I would pretty much listen to
(20:01):
the same songs over and over again, trying to teach
myself how to breathe well. I decided to apply that
the same principle to the water. So I swim with
waterproof headphones and they made all the difference in the
world in the beginning, and still do. Humming has its
own sense of vibration, but it's massively amplified in the water.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, So it became so much more comforting, and it
couldn't help me control my breathing, my pacing by humming
to the sounds that I heard in my ears and
it resonated through my entire chest and my neck, and
so I found a way to control that fear. And
then eventually it switched from fear to looking forward to
(20:43):
being in the water because.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That sense of peace that it sounds like it brought you.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Hm, It's become my strength. And my nonprofit's going to
partner with other ones who sold purposes to get people
hope and raise money and awareness off what I'm doing.
I can't do six hundred and fifteen miles in one stretch.
I may not be the smartest guy in the world,
but I'm also not the craziest breaking it into either
twenty five or fifty miles segments and do it over
(21:09):
the course of about twenty twenty five days, and do
it for hope.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, and you've said that I'm not conquering CIDP, I'm
living alongside it. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I think in looking at our lives as we look
for it's a human nature pieces. We look for things
that separate ourselves from other people, or separate ourselves from
our circumstances. Instead of embracing what's happened to you as
being a part of you, giving it an opportunity to
be a part of my story, not try to ignore it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
You're integrating it into who you are, right.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Right is crucial for patients, and I've had a few
that have reached out to me, so I try to
explain to them that it is a part of you now,
but it doesn't control you unless you let it.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I think there's so many lessons that I've learned in
life in the last probably thirteen fourteen years of my
life that I wouldn't have had had the things that
happened to me not occurred, and had it not been
for c IDOP.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So it's almost like those are the things that have
given you hope and have given you.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Perspective very much so, and I've needed help along the way.
My best friend ever since we were about four or
five years old, when I was in my dawn of
the dumps times, he said, your children are going to
look at a child in a classroom in a wheelchair
differently than anybody else will. They're going to look at
(22:29):
a child that has lost their hair to cancer and
is trying to, you know, go to their first day
of school or something. They're going to look at people
with struggles and it's not going to make a difference
to them because they're just another person.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Just like their dad is. Just yeah, and Trent, what
do you want other people to know about CIDP.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's going to force you to adjust, It's going to
put you in a position where you're going to feel
vulnerable and need help for other people. And none of
those are bad. Every single one of those is the
human experience. So in fact, CIDP, if you embrace the
parts that can come with it, if you give yourself
that opportunity to look at it with an open mind,
(23:10):
you're going to find that the condition itself is just
another part of the human experience.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I see.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
And the point is it's like, yeah, you are a
person who has CIDB, and now you have to embrace
this and see who this is leading you to be.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I wouldn't change anything. I would have then, but I
wouldn't now because the gifts that came from what happened
to me.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So Trent, we're coming to the end of this conversation.
So a couple of final questions. One is, what is
one lesson that you've learned about strength that you wish
someone had told you earlier.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
If you look inward first, the outward will come. And
I don't mean just in terms of muscle growth or
anything like that. I mean the strength that you can
have to endure and the strength you can have to
be there for somebody even when you feel like you
have nothing left in your life to give, where you
can be that hand on a shoulder. It's a process
(24:04):
of embracing that you have a power within you that
has always been there. It was a gift given to you.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
You didn't earn it, you didn't have to do anything
for it.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Right, and you don't have to wonder whether it ever
go away. It will always be there. You know, if
you're sick or if you're just exhausted, then it all
has to start from within. So it has to start,
you know, nutrition, It you know, starts with examining from within.
How do I overcome this? So I see too many
people that exhaust themselves on the inside and then expect
(24:33):
the outside to not be affected, to snap out of it. Yeah,
all right, Yeah that didn't happen. It doesn't work, no,
not in any way.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So and Trent, last question, You've written that when we
take those moments in life where we suffer and we
share our experiences with others, that load is lifted. What
does everyday strength look like to you?
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Now?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
The first thing I do every day is not to
sit there and ask myself what can I do for
my self? It's what can I do for somebody else?
Whenever you do something for yourself, it's a whole lot easier.
Whether it's through the simplicity of selfish behavior, but it's
more so in terms of self preservation. You're always going
to find a reason you can quit. But when it's
for somebody else, you know, somebody's relying on you, and
(25:17):
somebody needs you, and even somebody who may not have
met yet, you know, somebody based on what you're experiencing
at this moment, can benefit from that. You'll persevere. Doesn't
mean you want to experience some doubt a little bit, Yeah,
but if you look at it from you not doubting
the person you're doing it for, So why I doubt
yourself and the ability to do it.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
If you're doing it for someone else, it'll keep you going.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, And that has been the key to everything that
I do. My strength comes from not trying to do
something specifically for myself and not letting the selfish things
like metals take control of it. It's trying to encourage
people to step outside of their own circumstances and see
the bigger picture of the impact that they can have.
And well, you can all have it everyone as a
(26:00):
matter how old you are or you know where you
are at your point in life. Sometimes it's just an
outstretched hand. Sometimes it's just a smile. And that's that
is strength, that it really is.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Trent.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Thank you so much for your time today and your
insights and your courage and the way that you're able
by living for other people really showing the light of
what's possible.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I'm so grateful to Trent for sharing his story with us,
his setbacks, strength and unexpected purpose he found along the way. So,
whether you're living with cidp MG or another rare condition,
caring for someone who is, or simply just listening in,
I hope Trent's story has inspired you. I think we
can all agree that it's a powerful reminder that growth
(26:52):
doesn't always look like progress. Sometimes it looks like patience, resilience,
or showing up for yourself one step at a time.
Until next time, take care of yourself and your community.
Untold Stories Life with a Severe autoimmune Condition is produced
by Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia in partnership with Argenix and
(27:14):
hosted by me Martine Hackett. Our executive producer is Yvonne Shehen.
Our producer is Leah Sutherland. This episode was written and
produced by Diana Davis. Post production for this season is
by Tom Sullivan and Paul Bittelans of Audiography