August 22, 2025 • 38 mins
With only 14 film credits, River Phoenix has left an indelible mark in Hollywood and beyond. In “The Icon,” the fourth episode of Variety and iHeart Podcasts’ “Variety Confidential,” host Tatiana Siegel talks to Variety’s Owen Gleiberman and Brent Lang about the phenomenon of a Hollywood life taken too soon while Dr. Drew Pinsky explains how River’s untimely death reshaped the conversation around addiction.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This show contains mature content and adult themes, it may
not be suitable for young audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's not about career.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
It's about believing in something. It's about prosperity, and it's
about caring and empathizing and wanting to create the best,
the most true to life, the most real.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Well, that's something that you wouldn't hear a lot of
Hollywood people say.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
That's why I don't hang out and talk to those
Hollywood people, because they're there to hurt me.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hurt my view from Variety and iHeart Podcasts. This is
Variety Confidential, The Life and Legend of River Phoenix. I'm
Tatiana Siegel, Executive editor of Film and Media at Variety.
Over the course of the past three episodes, we've explored
the life of the late actor, musician, and activist River Phoenix,
(00:55):
from his unconventional upbringing to the once in a generation
talent that led to a promising career in Hollywood. We
also went deep into the events surrounding his untimely passing
at the age of twenty three, and all these years later,
River Phoenix's death is still shocking. On the thirtieth anniversary
(01:17):
of Standby Me, Rivers co star Richard Dreyfus told Variety, quote,
there are certain actors like Philip Seymour Hoffman. When Philip died,
what we were grieving about was not only that he died,
but that he took a very well known future away
from us. We knew he had all these great performances
(01:37):
to come. That left a big hole. The same thing
is true of River Phoenix. He was, without question, the
best of that group of actors that came up at
that time. Movie stardom is not just acting talent. It's
not just your ability to move an audience. It's a
combination of a lot of things, and he had it.
He died so young that it was a real theft,
(01:59):
a real robbery end quote. In our final episode, we'll
unpack how with only fourteen film credits, River Phoenix has
left an indelible mark in Hollywood and beyond. We begin
with addiction specialist and former host of Celebrity Rehab, doctor
Drew Pinsky, who joins us to discuss the deadly combination
(02:21):
that his celebrity status and opioids, and how River's tragic
death should be viewed as a cautionary tale. Doctor Drew
provides his perspective as a professional who has worked with
a range of Hollywood actors but did not treat River
Phoenix personally. Doctor Drew, You've seen more than your fair
share of celebrities struggling with addiction. Were you familiar with
(02:42):
the circumstances of River Phoenix's death back in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
I was aware of it, and I knew people that
were around him, who had been around him that I
treated later.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
He was only twenty three when he died, vising famous
that young put one at a greater risk.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Yes, and no. I mean we all are aware of
childhood stars and the potential for adverse outcomes there. And
as my friend Danny Bonaducci always schooled me, the child
stars that he saw did poorly came from childhood trauma,
came from problematic family systems. And then you add to
(03:21):
that the parentalization, the adultifying of kids, you know, making
them work in an adult environment, have adult responsibilities, that
in itself is traumatizing to kids. Kids need to be kids,
and when you put them in adult roles, it's not
good for them. And on top of that, many of
these productions are so tight and sort of intimate that
(03:43):
they feel like a surrogate family to these young people oftentimes,
and then when the project ends, everyone just goes their
separate way, and it's often very startling to young people.
It feels like another abandonment, another loss. So those were
the risks come from. Then, if you have addictive netics
on hand, they have a tendency to manifest in that
(04:06):
the kids starts looking for solutions to their pain and
they find their way to substances, and then they have
a second problem now, and that is the problem of addiction.
And if they're very famous and can keep people around
them or have you know who who either endorse or
can't restrain the use, then it will progress. Now were
things that was sort of a strange case. It was
(04:27):
stimulants and he had clearly had a cardiac arrhythmia and
went down, and there was a lot of I don't know's,
I don't know the details of the event, but it
seemed like more could have been done, but everyone was
so fearful that his addiction, you know, his drug use
would be exposed, that he didn't quite get the care
he should have in the time, the manner he should have,
(04:49):
and he certainly didn't get addiction treatment that was effective.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Can you walk us through how celebrity drug use often
starts like.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Everybody else le me Drake, like everybody else, everybody any added,
any addict. It typically starts an adolescence in young adulthood
that typically starts with cannabis. Alcohol use typically starts in
the home. That's where they get their first drink typically,
and a genetic disorder is activated. And if you add
(05:18):
trauma into that, then they for the first time in.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Their lives feel well because of the drugs, and they
keep using and then they trigger this progression we call addiction,
which takes.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
Over all the other priorities in their life. I mean,
the best example of the history of this and the
recovery is Robert Daddy Junior. He is by far had
the most serious life threatening addiction and did what he
needed to do, which was drop out, focused on his recovery,
and nothing but his recovery, not even contemplate coming back,
(05:53):
and then came back slowly with the direction of his
recovery community and staying in the program to this day.
And you know, he was in prison and he was
dying of opiate addiction, and he now has a flourishing
career because he did what he needed to do, but
when he was in his recovery, he didn't know if
(06:14):
he was ever going to act again. And the problem
with a lot of celebrities and treatment these days is
they don't stay in treatment long enough and they return
to work prematurely, both because they love their work and
it gives them a lot of sort of narcissistic gratification,
but also because they make a lot of money for
themselves and other people, and so they push to bring
them back to work, and that's the biggest liability for
(06:38):
recovery for treatment with celebrities.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
According to the autopsy, River had been speedballing the night
of his death, Doctor Drew, can you explain what speedballing is?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
People is mixing a stimulant with heroin. It sort of
enhances and sustains the high. Very popular cocaine and heroin
is very popular back then. Unusual there usually hard to
know how he progress, but usually heroin is the primary
drug and then cocaine is just used as an adjuvant
trying to enhance things.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So, in your opinion, why do you think many of
these young celebrities like a River Phoenix are uniquely vulnerable
to drug addiction.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
They're not unique that there is nothing special about celebrity.
I cannot say that strongly enough. It's not as though
I have a separate diagnostic manual for celebrities. They are
the same. It's just like everybody. There's a context for
their addiction, and their context is if it's child's stardom.
(07:38):
I explained how parentifying. You heard all that, right, So
they have some trauma coming in, then if they have
the genetics, then they go. And if then if they
have the power to avoid consequences, they progress. If they
are still dependent, or if they have people in their
lives like employers and things who can pull them asides
and put them in treatment, well they do better.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
River's overdose death predates Matthew Perry's by a few decades.
It also comes after John Belushi's. And yet whenever these
celebrity drug overdose deaths happen, including Philip Seymour Hoffmann and
Chris Barley and Heath Ledger and more recently Angus Cloud,
it comes as such a shock, but it shouldn't.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Right right, Yes, recognitions, they potentially fatal illness, and I
have the only published research on this, and what we
were able to show in our research very clearly is
that people that seek celebrity have more childhood trauma, have
more narcissistic defense strategies, and tend to have more addictions.
(08:43):
And the big celebrities, the very powerful celebrities, construct their
lives in such a way that they dismiss people from
their inner circles who attempt to pull them aside and
get them to do something about their addictions. So the
addiction is able to spiral unrestricted, and when addiction progresses
(09:04):
without any constraints, it leads to death typically, And you
can't force people into treatment in this country. You know
that maybe people tried. I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
There are two aspects of addiction that everyone doesn't seem
to understand. It's progressive and it's potentially fatal commonly, so
(09:25):
a surprise when a drug addict dies is a lack
of understanding of what this disease is. Your probability, if
you're an opiate addict, your probability of dying is significantly
worse than the majority of cancer patients. Why we can't
get that through to people, I don't know the fact
that we hand out drugs to people on the street
(09:47):
is nothing short of manslaughter. They will die. It progresses
no matter where you get the drug, no matter how
you get the drug. It's a progressive illness.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Matthew Perry and River Phoenix were after working together in
a Night in the Life of Jimmy Reardan. Do you
think it makes any difference to someone who sees a
friend go through addiction or even overdose in terms of
their own drug usage?
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I mean, it doesn't stop their addictions. Sometimes it gets
them to come to treatment because they you know, it
gets through their denial a little bit. What can happen?
But drug addicts are concerned with one thing and one
thing only, and that is doing drugs, and every other
brain system, all their other good judgment, all their other
good intentions, serves that distorted motivation. So to get through
(10:38):
that requires a lot, and somebody else's death sometimes gets there,
but not not necessarily. Not necessarily, And maybe it slowed
Matthew's down and he had a very different, very different
course of addiction than really Phoenix and Matthew Perry struggled
with treatment. Matthew tried treatment, tried very hard. Maybe that's
(11:00):
that's why he lived as long as he did. I
don't know, but there was some obviously some missteps along
the way.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
In your opinion, has anything gotten better in Hollywood since
River's death, in terms of studios, producers, agents, all of
them being more supportive of young stars and getting them
help when they need it.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
You mentioned John Belushi early, right, And then people did
not understand addiction. Dan Eckert has talked about that. He's
talked about how well we knew we had did drugs,
but we didn't understand what addiction was. We didn't know
what was necessary to get better. And so since that era, yes,
things have gotten a lot better, and so we've come
(11:40):
to a more modern understanding of addiction. But I think
people still have this sense that people should be able
to be fixed or if they would just do treatment. Look,
on average, on average, for a bad alcoholic, it takes
four treatments and five years to get one year of sobriety.
That is on average, and that's alcohol and alcohol it
(12:02):
can be really horrible, of course, but not opiate addiction.
And so there's still a great deal of confusion about
the progressivity of these things and the seriousness of them,
and what's required to get well.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
For anyone listening, whether it's a parent or a friend
or a family member, or around someone who has substance
abuse issues, what would you advise, what would you caution against?
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Do not walk on eggshells, address it very directly, do
it from a place of love and concern. And there's
only and I mean only one thing you can do
that will contribute to the outcome, and that is you yourself.
Go to alan On or another codependency program, get a sponsor,
(12:49):
and work your program. Because the disease is interpersonal. It
takes every strength in every weakness, including other people in
that person's life, and pulls them in. The Audrey to
the plant in the little Shop of Horror is a
perfect model for addiction. If you go near the plant,
it eats you. That's how addiction works. Unless you have
(13:10):
somebody else there pulling you back, and that is your
sponsor or therapist or things like that. On your own,
it will find a way under your skin and every
good instinct you have will be used to maintain the disease.
So you must if you're actually care or you have
to leave with love and care, and don't leave out
(13:32):
of anger and rejection, because sometimes loss is something that
will catch their attention, but ideally in their lives, stay
in their life, but change the dance. And the only
way to change that dance is by your codependency being managed.
If somebody has a first ree relative with addictionary alcoholism
and they are starting to use, lose control of their
(13:55):
relationship with any substance, or they're using dangerous iliciit substances
can kill you. On their own, you're in big, big, big,
big trouble and they need treatment immediately, and to not
treat them as certain certain progressions, certain trouble and possible
death you yourself. The non addicts have to also have
(14:15):
a support system because you will get sucked in. It's
a cunning illness and it just gets it drags you in,
not intentionally, there's no intention behind it. It's all the
brain systems, including it or personal are directed towards getting drugs,
(14:35):
and so you'll get dragged in, I promise without without
some help. And that's why parents can't do this alone.
That's why I loved ones can't do this alone. You
can't because every good instinct you have, every important feeling
you have about that person will get used to get
to drugs. Period.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
At the time of River Phoenix's death in nineteen ninety three,
the actor had about a month left of filming on
Dark Blood and had been slated to play the reporter
in Interview with a Vampire, a role that Christian Slater
eventually stepped in to phil These unfinished works were a
stark reminder of a life taken too soon. The large
and very public outpouring of grief surrounding Phoenix's passing was
(15:19):
also a testament to the actor's impact. According to Variety
reports published in the weeks following his death, simultaneous private
memorial services were held for him on November fourth. Actor
Ione Sky, who co starred with River in A Night
in the Life of Jimmy Reardon, organized one in Los Angeles,
while his family held another at their home in Gainesville, Florida.
(15:43):
River's longtime agent Iris Burton called Variety after the memorial
service in Gainesville and described it as a quote love
in end quote end quote, a meeting of a circle
of friends end quote. In addition to family, those there
included girlfriend Samantha Mathis, his Sneakers co star Dan Ackroyd,
(16:04):
and The Thing Called Love co star Dermott Moloney, Red
Hot Chili Pepper's bassist Fleet and Rim frontman Michael Stipe.
As for the circumstances surrounding River's death, Burton told Variety
the following quote, Being a young actor growing up so fast,
with so much being offered, and doing so many things
(16:26):
is insanity. They should stop playing the field, stop playing around,
stop the partying, just concentrate on their work and their
good fortune. I hope they will all learn from this
tragedy end quote. A private, invitation only tribute was held
two weeks later, on November nineteenth, nineteen ninety three, at
(16:47):
the Paramount Theater. Variety reported that the guest speakers included
Sydney Poitier, Rob Reiner, Jerry O'Connell, Naomi Fohoner, Richard Benjamin,
John Borman, Christine Lati, Peter Bogdanovich, Helen Mirren, Iris Burton,
and River's mother Heart Phoenix. Tom Cruise, who was on
(17:10):
location for interview with a Vampire, sent a note quote,
I'll miss never having the opportunity to work with him.
End quote. Jonathan Price, who co starred with River in
the uncompleted Dark Blood, wrote a touching paternal note, saying quote,
I only knew him for eight weeks, but I felt
I could know him forever end quote. Nearly three decades
(17:33):
after his death, River Phoenix's influence continues to reverberate throughout Hollywood.
From his fearless choice of roles to his commitment to activism,
he set a precedent for young actors to pursue meaningful
work while staying true to their values. To help us
understand the actor's lasting impact, Variety's executive editor Brent Lang
(17:56):
and chief film critic Owen Gleiberman join us now. Together,
we'll discuss River's influence on the film industry, his enduring
cultural resonance, and the lessons his life and death have imparted.
Oh On, when you think back to the nineties, who
were the other actors who were in the same league
as River.
Speaker 6 (18:17):
There was definitely a new generation of actors coming together
in the nineties. I guess you could sort of say
that their forbear with Sean pen because he was that
one actor in the nineties who'd come up through that
kind of cheeseball culture but was much more serious, much
more moody, much darker. So the new generation was darker.
(18:40):
But then you had people like Matt Damon come Along
in a sense, who was a very serious actor but
also kind of an old school young leading man in
a way. I think someone like River Phoenix probably had
the potential to be that and might have become that.
I mean, I think it's so interesting to talk about
(19:02):
what would have happened had he not died. I think,
you know, he could have gone anywhere. He could have
been a very very big star. He could have had
leading man roles. I think the best way to think
about what would have happened to River Phoenix had he
lived is to follow the prototype of Brad Pitt. You know,
he went after the role. River Phoenix went after the
role that Brad Pitt got in A River runs through it,
(19:26):
and you can sort of see him following that trajectory
being this kind of good looking movie young star. And
people didn't take Brad Pitt that seriously at the start,
but he proved himself as an actor in movie after movie,
and I think River Phoenix would have had I'm not
saying he would have had the exact same kind of career,
(19:47):
but I think he would have had those kinds of
opportunity to be the leading man, to be in popcorn
movies to be in deadly serious indie movies the whole thing,
or Phoenix had ever made comic book blockbusters or something.
I can't predict yes or no, but what I can
say is he would have had that opportunity. They would
(20:10):
have rolled out the red carpet for him to play
those kinds of roles, and at a certain point he
would have probably had to make a choice, you know,
am I going to Am I gonna do that mainstream
Hollywood thing. My guess is that he would have because
I don't think he had the kind of chip on
(20:30):
his shoulder about that stuff that someone like Sean Penn does.
And I'm not dissing Sean Penn by saying that, because
Sean Penn, in a way has walked the straight and
arrow for decades as an actor, always taking just roles
that he thinks are are interesting, and there's a tremendous
integrity to the way that he's done that. But then
there's also the thing that just says, all right, let's
(20:51):
go let's do a blockbuster, let's do a comic book movie.
Let's try that on. Let's see what it looks like.
Plenty of great actors have done that.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Phoenix. I could see.
Speaker 6 (21:01):
I could see him going that way because I just
think he had that kind of spark. I think he
was a very serious actor who didn't take himself that seriously.
He was not pretentious about himself, and I think he
kind of went with the flow.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
And Brad, how about you.
Speaker 7 (21:17):
I mean, I think if you look at basically Leonardo
DiCaprio's career, there's no reason that River couldn't have played
almost any of those roles. And I would assume he
would have been up for most of them. I mean,
I could have seen him. He was such a good
actor that he could have played the role that Leo
played in Titanic, or he could have played the role
(21:38):
that Leo nearly played in Boogie Knights that ultimately Mark
Wahlberg played. I mean, I think he would have been
up for basically anything.
Speaker 5 (21:46):
You know.
Speaker 7 (21:46):
I don't think he would have been sort of the
Russell Crowe burly man. It would have been more of
the kind of the sensitive star. But he really could
have done it all. And I think he also could
have straddled that gap between kind of the more commercially
minded fair and the more director driven stuff, because already
he had worked with really great filmmakers. He'd worked with Spielberg,
(22:09):
He'd worked with Sidney Lamett, He'd worked with Gus van Sand,
He'd worked with Rob Reiner. I mean, all of these
people are very serious minded directors, and it sort of
showed how in demand he was. He worked with Peter
Weir at Mosquito Coast. He was a Harrison Ford had
sort of had told Spielberg to cast him in the
Indiana Jones film, so he had the endorsement of a
(22:32):
lot of major industry figures at the time of his death.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Thanks Brent. Now, let's listen to this interview from the
early nineties.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
No.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I started acting through auditioning and trial by uh basically.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
Howl do you then when you started ten does that?
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Some television commercials and then later you get cast in
the film if you're lucky.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Really explain why I understand what I understand, I just do,
and to try to figure it out I think would
kind of ruin it, you know. I want to leave
it like a mine of gold, you know, without ever
mining it, you know, and selling it. I want to
sell it off. I don't want to talk about it.
I don't want to understand it.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
In a way that will.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Exploit the pureness.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
So I just leave it.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I don't understand it, but I believe it.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
You're a natural.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I'm not saying anything.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
I'd say, Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
In many ways, River Phoenix's legacy continues through his brother Joaquin,
who was one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and
won the Best Actor Oscar for playing Joker in twenty twenty.
In his acceptance speech, Joaquin dedicated the award to his
late brother and even teared up toward the end when
he spoke about a lyric.
Speaker 8 (23:52):
River wrote, Now, I've been I've been a scoundrel in
my life. I've been selfish, I've been cruel at times,
hard to work with, and ungrateful. But so many of
you in this room have given me a second chance.
And I think that's when we're at our best. When
(24:14):
we support each other, not when we cancel each other
out for past mistakes, but when we help each other
to grow, when we educate each other, when we guide
each other towards redemption. That is the best of humanity.
I just want to he was when he was when
(24:41):
he was seventeen, My brother wrote this lyric. He said,
run to the rescue with love and peace will follow.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
That was one of the most memorable Oscar moments that year. Brent,
what impact did River's death have on Joaquin's career.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
I don't actually really know what the impact was on
ja Quin's career, other than you know, when Joaquin Phoenix
accepted his Oscar, he quoted his brother and that sort
of says in a song that his brother had written,
and so that indicates that that his impact on his
brother was pretty seismic, and it continues. And I think
(25:22):
if you if you look at Laquin Phoenix and how
talented he is and just sort of generationally gifted he is,
it's it's possible that River Phoenix would have had an
even bigger career because I think that he had all
of the Jaquini ja Quing Phoenix's kind of chameleonic talents
and his ability to really like have this unearthed, this
(25:46):
kind of rich emotional life with his characters. But he
was a little more forward facing and a little more
charming frankly in a conventional sense. So I think he
could have had an even bigger career than his brother.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
And Owen, what are your impressions of the Phoenix brothers
performances side by side.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Well, it's fascinating to think Hed River lived, you know,
of the idea of these side by side brothers both
having these blossoming careers, But I think it easily could
have happened because they're really such different actors. Joaquin Phoenix
from the beginning, My first memory of him was seeing
him in To Die For. He had that very Joaquin
(26:30):
quality that he still has. There is something dark about him.
He's drawn to playing you know, kind of twisted characters,
not that there was not a core of normality and
empathy to him. I mean he has that, That's why
he's a great actor. But you know, he definitely likes
to dance on the edge and on the edge of
(26:50):
darkness and all of that, and I think that River
Phoenix has some of that. I mean, they came from
the same family, and I think both of them reflect
that strange upbringing they had, where you know, they were
raised by hippie parents who moved around all the time.
When River was three, his family joined the Children of
(27:11):
God religious cult. They were missionaries in Venezuela. He talked
about being sexually abused and was very negative about that.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
Cult later on.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
You know, it was a family with a very you know,
eccentric upbringing that I think left its mark. But I
think that River Phoenix probably could have ended up being
more of the leading man. But you know, to the
extent that he had this James Dean quality that is
very much a leading man quality. It's it's it is
(27:47):
the classic Hollywood tradition that goes back to Dean and
then through Robert Redford, actors like Brad Pitt. I think
River Phoenix was, you know, was on that spectrum. And
I think he would have had a lot of opportunities,
not just because he was very good looking, but because
he had it's that magical charisma that makes a star,
(28:11):
you know. He he could have had the opportunities to
do in the nineties, let's say, a romantic comedy. Would
he have taken that? Maybe, maybe not, but I think
he could have done it in a way that Joaquin
Phoenix was just not going to do that. I think
Joaquin would have ended up being, you know, relatively speaking,
the darker of the two. But who knows, because River
(28:32):
Phoenix was, as I said, very drawn to playing alienated characters.
It's just hard to say, but I think I think
he would have been He would have blossomed into a
true leading man. If that's not an outdated phrase.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Brent, let me ask you, do you think River influenced
the generation of actors that came after him.
Speaker 7 (28:55):
I think of him as being really one of the
leaders of that generation of young stars who kind of
emerged in the latter half of the nineteen eighties. And
what he'd done very successfully was he'd shown that he
could do a number of different genres. He wasn't a
certifiable box office draw yet, but he was kind of
(29:17):
putting all the pieces together where you could see him
having a career that kind of was able to move
seamlessly between sort of more adult oriented, artistic types of
films and maybe some more commercially minded stuff. Of course,
that kind of depended on like the choice he made
in his career, and I think he was still sort
(29:40):
of trying to figure himself out as an artist. My
Own Private Idaho was really a very important film for
him because it gave him a kind of like underground
edgy cred, and it moved him from being a sort
of pin up for people to being a kind of
a more dangerous star. He was kind of reinventing himself
(30:02):
with that movie, but it's definitely not inconceivable that he
would have had a career that was very similar to
Leonardo DiCaprio, where you sort of started off with these
showy performances and then you kind of moved more into
mainstream fair And even at the time he died, he
(30:23):
was about to do interview with the Vampire, playing the
role that Christian Slater ended up playing, and that sort
of shows that Hollywood still saw him as one of
his kind of most promising twenty somethings year old stars.
If you look at this generation of actors. I mean,
first of all, I think what's interesting is if you
(30:44):
talk to a lot of this generation of actors, they
would probably cite River Phoenix as an influence of them,
which sort of shows just the extent of his impact,
not just on his death, which I'm sure people remember,
but also his life and his work. And I do
think that, you know, Timothy Shallomy definitely has a sort
(31:04):
of a similar appeal to River Phoenix. He's he seems sensitive,
sort of artistically minded, He's you know, obviously he's very attractive,
and there's almost a certain like femininity and to both
of them that is really appealing and I think really
comes through on film well. And actually, if you look
(31:26):
at a lot of the great stars, there is a
certain like femininity to them, even Rando and Dean, a
kind of a gentleness that all of those those actors share,
and I think River Phoenix really had that too. You
want to kind of protect him when you see him
on screen, and that's why when he's in certain movies
(31:49):
and he you know, there's this scene and stand by
Me where he talks about the milk money being stolen
and he kind of breaks down, and it's a very
it really sticks with you because because because you do
want the best for that character, because there is something,
some quality in the actor saying those words that allows
you to forge this kind of like very intense connection
(32:11):
with him.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
In addition to Timothy Shallomey, who else do you think
closely resembles River's acting style?
Speaker 7 (32:18):
Definitely Jacob ELORDI. I mean, there's there's a lot of
other actors that, I mean, even Tom Holland a little bit,
although I think River Phoenix was probably a better actor.
No offense to Tom Holland, but just that he kind
of had more range, but you know, definitely Tom Holland.
I think Barry Kyogan is probably a little more eccentric
than River Phoenix, but more aligned with Joaquin. Probably Chalomey
(32:42):
is probably the one who's the most most similar.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Oh one, How do you think River influenced the generation
of actors that came after him, including Joaquin.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
I think River Phoenix might have had a real influence
on the actors who came after him in that his few,
sadly few years of prominence really did overlap with the
start of the American independent film movement, the American independent
film revolution. I mean, the American independent film movement had
(33:15):
gone back to the nineteen fifties, but I'm talking about
the revolution that started in the nineties, where these films
suddenly became talked about in a much bigger way. They
got seen, they became big movies, even as they were
carrying through a lot of the darker themes and themes
(33:36):
of alienation and questioning authority and questioning just everything about
life that you saw in the films of the seventies.
And so he kind of dovetailed with that, and I
think in that small handful of extraordinary performances that he
gave us. He showed the way for young actors. He
showed that young actors could embrace these kinds of roles
(34:00):
and find a kind of truth in them, because that
is what American independent film was supposed to be about.
Hollywood was about, you know, projecting a certain fantasy, but
indie movies were going to return us to the idea
of cinema really trying to find, you know, put its
finger on certain truths about things. And that happens with actors.
(34:22):
That's what actors do. It's actors who take us into
the truth of what they're showing us. And he just
had that quality. There was something very very pure about it.
I first noticed him and noticed his talent in stand
By Me. But the movie that really made me wake
up and say, oh my gosh, I mean this guy
(34:43):
is a major actor was running on empty in nineteen
eighty eight. And the whole soul of that in the
movie is River Phoenix in his performance, because he is
the son who has now essentially grown up and he
wants to go to college and can he do that.
It's like he can't, he can't do that without putting
(35:04):
his family in danger. So it actually becomes this very
very interesting situation and River Phoenix's performance, where I would
say it's very James dem like, is that this is
exactly the kind of role where you would expect the
kid to be kind of a rebel or now rebelling
against his parents, saying, you know, I want to go
(35:26):
to college. You know, you can take your hippie stuff
and I don't care about that. But he doesn't play
it like that at all.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
He plays the.
Speaker 6 (35:32):
Character as extraordinarily sincere and it's really very sleeve young man,
and there's something just very authentic about his performance. He
roots you in that movie. He makes the whole movie
work and it becomes actually a powerful experience. And I
(35:53):
think when you watch his acting in that movie where
he was only seventeen or eighteen when he shot it,
you see not only his extraordinary skill as an actor,
you just see the quality he had as an actor,
this quality of sincerity where he could be I don't
know what the word is, the everyman, the person where
(36:13):
you know you just identify with him. He is. He's real,
but he's also in a way your best self. That
is part of the magic of what stardom is, where
you want to watch this person, but he's also projecting
almost this kind of down to earth moral quality he
had that I think had River Phoenix lived and thrived
(36:38):
into the nineties, the only thing I can predict about
his career is that he would have been extraordinarily successful,
because I think he had that double edged thing of
he was a fantastic actor and he was a very sexy,
good looking, glamorous star, and that gives you a lot
(36:58):
of power in both directions. I think any number of
filmmakers would have wanted to work with him. But beyond that,
I think by definition it's unpredictable because the way the
movie business works is you do a certain movie and
it becomes big. Let's say, might be an indie film,
might be a Hollywood film, and then that role defines
(37:22):
you in a certain way, and everything you do after
that it doesn't have to necessarily just repeat that. But
then you're kind of taking off from that in this direction.
But I think he would have been huge.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
River Phoenix's story is one of brilliant and heartbreak. He
serves as both an inspiration and a cautionary tale, reminding
us of the beauty and fragility of human life. As
we close this season of Variety Confidential. We honor River
not just as an actor, but as a person whose
light continues to shine through the lives he touched and
(37:56):
the art he created. Thank you for joining us for
this season of Variety Confidential, the life and legend of
River Phoenix. Don't forget to subscribe and read more at
Variety dot com. Variety Confidential is hosted by Tatiana Siegel
and produced by Karen Mizugucci and Sidney Kramer. Written by
(38:18):
Anna Moslim, Karen Mizugucci and Tatiana Siegal. Executive produced by
Dea Lawrence, Variety's co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton, and
Ramins A two day edited and mixed by Aaron Greenawald
Variety Content Studio Executive Producer Alex Hughes. Please refer to
sources and citations on Variety dot com.
This show contains mature content and adult themes, it may
not be suitable for young audiences.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's not about career.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
It's about believing in something. It's about prosperity, and it's
about caring and empathizing and wanting to create the best,
the most true to life, the most real.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Well, that's something that you wouldn't hear a lot of
Hollywood people say.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
That's why I don't hang out and talk to those
Hollywood people, because they're there to hurt me.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hurt my view from Variety and iHeart Podcasts. This is
Variety Confidential, The Life and Legend of River Phoenix. I'm
Tatiana Siegel, Executive editor of Film and Media at Variety.
Over the course of the past three episodes, we've explored
the life of the late actor, musician, and activist River Phoenix,
(00:55):
from his unconventional upbringing to the once in a generation
talent that led to a promising career in Hollywood. We
also went deep into the events surrounding his untimely passing
at the age of twenty three, and all these years later,
River Phoenix's death is still shocking. On the thirtieth anniversary
(01:17):
of Standby Me, Rivers co star Richard Dreyfus told Variety, quote,
there are certain actors like Philip Seymour Hoffman. When Philip died,
what we were grieving about was not only that he died,
but that he took a very well known future away
from us. We knew he had all these great performances
(01:37):
to come. That left a big hole. The same thing
is true of River Phoenix. He was, without question, the
best of that group of actors that came up at
that time. Movie stardom is not just acting talent. It's
not just your ability to move an audience. It's a
combination of a lot of things, and he had it.
He died so young that it was a real theft,
(01:59):
a real robbery end quote. In our final episode, we'll
unpack how with only fourteen film credits, River Phoenix has
left an indelible mark in Hollywood and beyond. We begin
with addiction specialist and former host of Celebrity Rehab, doctor
Drew Pinsky, who joins us to discuss the deadly combination
(02:21):
that his celebrity status and opioids, and how River's tragic
death should be viewed as a cautionary tale. Doctor Drew
provides his perspective as a professional who has worked with
a range of Hollywood actors but did not treat River
Phoenix personally. Doctor Drew, You've seen more than your fair
share of celebrities struggling with addiction. Were you familiar with
(02:42):
the circumstances of River Phoenix's death back in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
I was aware of it, and I knew people that
were around him, who had been around him that I
treated later.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
He was only twenty three when he died, vising famous
that young put one at a greater risk.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Yes, and no. I mean we all are aware of
childhood stars and the potential for adverse outcomes there. And
as my friend Danny Bonaducci always schooled me, the child
stars that he saw did poorly came from childhood trauma,
came from problematic family systems. And then you add to
(03:21):
that the parentalization, the adultifying of kids, you know, making
them work in an adult environment, have adult responsibilities, that
in itself is traumatizing to kids. Kids need to be kids,
and when you put them in adult roles, it's not
good for them. And on top of that, many of
these productions are so tight and sort of intimate that
(03:43):
they feel like a surrogate family to these young people oftentimes,
and then when the project ends, everyone just goes their
separate way, and it's often very startling to young people.
It feels like another abandonment, another loss. So those were
the risks come from. Then, if you have addictive netics
on hand, they have a tendency to manifest in that
(04:06):
the kids starts looking for solutions to their pain and
they find their way to substances, and then they have
a second problem now, and that is the problem of addiction.
And if they're very famous and can keep people around
them or have you know who who either endorse or
can't restrain the use, then it will progress. Now were
things that was sort of a strange case. It was
(04:27):
stimulants and he had clearly had a cardiac arrhythmia and
went down, and there was a lot of I don't know's,
I don't know the details of the event, but it
seemed like more could have been done, but everyone was
so fearful that his addiction, you know, his drug use
would be exposed, that he didn't quite get the care
he should have in the time, the manner he should have,
(04:49):
and he certainly didn't get addiction treatment that was effective.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Can you walk us through how celebrity drug use often
starts like.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Everybody else le me Drake, like everybody else, everybody any added,
any addict. It typically starts an adolescence in young adulthood
that typically starts with cannabis. Alcohol use typically starts in
the home. That's where they get their first drink typically,
and a genetic disorder is activated. And if you add
(05:18):
trauma into that, then they for the first time in.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Their lives feel well because of the drugs, and they
keep using and then they trigger this progression we call addiction,
which takes.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
Over all the other priorities in their life. I mean,
the best example of the history of this and the
recovery is Robert Daddy Junior. He is by far had
the most serious life threatening addiction and did what he
needed to do, which was drop out, focused on his recovery,
and nothing but his recovery, not even contemplate coming back,
(05:53):
and then came back slowly with the direction of his
recovery community and staying in the program to this day.
And you know, he was in prison and he was
dying of opiate addiction, and he now has a flourishing
career because he did what he needed to do, but
when he was in his recovery, he didn't know if
(06:14):
he was ever going to act again. And the problem
with a lot of celebrities and treatment these days is
they don't stay in treatment long enough and they return
to work prematurely, both because they love their work and
it gives them a lot of sort of narcissistic gratification,
but also because they make a lot of money for
themselves and other people, and so they push to bring
them back to work, and that's the biggest liability for
(06:38):
recovery for treatment with celebrities.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
According to the autopsy, River had been speedballing the night
of his death, Doctor Drew, can you explain what speedballing is?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
People is mixing a stimulant with heroin. It sort of
enhances and sustains the high. Very popular cocaine and heroin
is very popular back then. Unusual there usually hard to
know how he progress, but usually heroin is the primary
drug and then cocaine is just used as an adjuvant
trying to enhance things.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So, in your opinion, why do you think many of
these young celebrities like a River Phoenix are uniquely vulnerable
to drug addiction.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
They're not unique that there is nothing special about celebrity.
I cannot say that strongly enough. It's not as though
I have a separate diagnostic manual for celebrities. They are
the same. It's just like everybody. There's a context for
their addiction, and their context is if it's child's stardom.
(07:38):
I explained how parentifying. You heard all that, right, So
they have some trauma coming in, then if they have
the genetics, then they go. And if then if they
have the power to avoid consequences, they progress. If they
are still dependent, or if they have people in their
lives like employers and things who can pull them asides
and put them in treatment, well they do better.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
River's overdose death predates Matthew Perry's by a few decades.
It also comes after John Belushi's. And yet whenever these
celebrity drug overdose deaths happen, including Philip Seymour Hoffmann and
Chris Barley and Heath Ledger and more recently Angus Cloud,
it comes as such a shock, but it shouldn't.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Right right, Yes, recognitions, they potentially fatal illness, and I
have the only published research on this, and what we
were able to show in our research very clearly is
that people that seek celebrity have more childhood trauma, have
more narcissistic defense strategies, and tend to have more addictions.
(08:43):
And the big celebrities, the very powerful celebrities, construct their
lives in such a way that they dismiss people from
their inner circles who attempt to pull them aside and
get them to do something about their addictions. So the
addiction is able to spiral unrestricted, and when addiction progresses
(09:04):
without any constraints, it leads to death typically, And you
can't force people into treatment in this country. You know
that maybe people tried. I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
There are two aspects of addiction that everyone doesn't seem
to understand. It's progressive and it's potentially fatal commonly, so
(09:25):
a surprise when a drug addict dies is a lack
of understanding of what this disease is. Your probability, if
you're an opiate addict, your probability of dying is significantly
worse than the majority of cancer patients. Why we can't
get that through to people, I don't know the fact
that we hand out drugs to people on the street
(09:47):
is nothing short of manslaughter. They will die. It progresses
no matter where you get the drug, no matter how
you get the drug. It's a progressive illness.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Matthew Perry and River Phoenix were after working together in
a Night in the Life of Jimmy Reardan. Do you
think it makes any difference to someone who sees a
friend go through addiction or even overdose in terms of
their own drug usage?
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I mean, it doesn't stop their addictions. Sometimes it gets
them to come to treatment because they you know, it
gets through their denial a little bit. What can happen?
But drug addicts are concerned with one thing and one
thing only, and that is doing drugs, and every other
brain system, all their other good judgment, all their other
good intentions, serves that distorted motivation. So to get through
(10:38):
that requires a lot, and somebody else's death sometimes gets there,
but not not necessarily. Not necessarily, And maybe it slowed
Matthew's down and he had a very different, very different
course of addiction than really Phoenix and Matthew Perry struggled
with treatment. Matthew tried treatment, tried very hard. Maybe that's
(11:00):
that's why he lived as long as he did. I
don't know, but there was some obviously some missteps along
the way.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
In your opinion, has anything gotten better in Hollywood since
River's death, in terms of studios, producers, agents, all of
them being more supportive of young stars and getting them
help when they need it.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
You mentioned John Belushi early, right, And then people did
not understand addiction. Dan Eckert has talked about that. He's
talked about how well we knew we had did drugs,
but we didn't understand what addiction was. We didn't know
what was necessary to get better. And so since that era, yes,
things have gotten a lot better, and so we've come
(11:40):
to a more modern understanding of addiction. But I think
people still have this sense that people should be able
to be fixed or if they would just do treatment. Look,
on average, on average, for a bad alcoholic, it takes
four treatments and five years to get one year of sobriety.
That is on average, and that's alcohol and alcohol it
(12:02):
can be really horrible, of course, but not opiate addiction.
And so there's still a great deal of confusion about
the progressivity of these things and the seriousness of them,
and what's required to get well.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
For anyone listening, whether it's a parent or a friend
or a family member, or around someone who has substance
abuse issues, what would you advise, what would you caution against?
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Do not walk on eggshells, address it very directly, do
it from a place of love and concern. And there's
only and I mean only one thing you can do
that will contribute to the outcome, and that is you yourself.
Go to alan On or another codependency program, get a sponsor,
(12:49):
and work your program. Because the disease is interpersonal. It
takes every strength in every weakness, including other people in
that person's life, and pulls them in. The Audrey to
the plant in the little Shop of Horror is a
perfect model for addiction. If you go near the plant,
it eats you. That's how addiction works. Unless you have
(13:10):
somebody else there pulling you back, and that is your
sponsor or therapist or things like that. On your own,
it will find a way under your skin and every
good instinct you have will be used to maintain the disease.
So you must if you're actually care or you have
to leave with love and care, and don't leave out
(13:32):
of anger and rejection, because sometimes loss is something that
will catch their attention, but ideally in their lives, stay
in their life, but change the dance. And the only
way to change that dance is by your codependency being managed.
If somebody has a first ree relative with addictionary alcoholism
and they are starting to use, lose control of their
(13:55):
relationship with any substance, or they're using dangerous iliciit substances
can kill you. On their own, you're in big, big, big,
big trouble and they need treatment immediately, and to not
treat them as certain certain progressions, certain trouble and possible
death you yourself. The non addicts have to also have
(14:15):
a support system because you will get sucked in. It's
a cunning illness and it just gets it drags you in,
not intentionally, there's no intention behind it. It's all the
brain systems, including it or personal are directed towards getting drugs,
(14:35):
and so you'll get dragged in, I promise without without
some help. And that's why parents can't do this alone.
That's why I loved ones can't do this alone. You
can't because every good instinct you have, every important feeling
you have about that person will get used to get
to drugs. Period.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
At the time of River Phoenix's death in nineteen ninety three,
the actor had about a month left of filming on
Dark Blood and had been slated to play the reporter
in Interview with a Vampire, a role that Christian Slater
eventually stepped in to phil These unfinished works were a
stark reminder of a life taken too soon. The large
and very public outpouring of grief surrounding Phoenix's passing was
(15:19):
also a testament to the actor's impact. According to Variety
reports published in the weeks following his death, simultaneous private
memorial services were held for him on November fourth. Actor
Ione Sky, who co starred with River in A Night
in the Life of Jimmy Reardon, organized one in Los Angeles,
while his family held another at their home in Gainesville, Florida.
(15:43):
River's longtime agent Iris Burton called Variety after the memorial
service in Gainesville and described it as a quote love
in end quote end quote, a meeting of a circle
of friends end quote. In addition to family, those there
included girlfriend Samantha Mathis, his Sneakers co star Dan Ackroyd,
(16:04):
and The Thing Called Love co star Dermott Moloney, Red
Hot Chili Pepper's bassist Fleet and Rim frontman Michael Stipe.
As for the circumstances surrounding River's death, Burton told Variety
the following quote, Being a young actor growing up so fast,
with so much being offered, and doing so many things
(16:26):
is insanity. They should stop playing the field, stop playing around,
stop the partying, just concentrate on their work and their
good fortune. I hope they will all learn from this
tragedy end quote. A private, invitation only tribute was held
two weeks later, on November nineteenth, nineteen ninety three, at
(16:47):
the Paramount Theater. Variety reported that the guest speakers included
Sydney Poitier, Rob Reiner, Jerry O'Connell, Naomi Fohoner, Richard Benjamin,
John Borman, Christine Lati, Peter Bogdanovich, Helen Mirren, Iris Burton,
and River's mother Heart Phoenix. Tom Cruise, who was on
(17:10):
location for interview with a Vampire, sent a note quote,
I'll miss never having the opportunity to work with him.
End quote. Jonathan Price, who co starred with River in
the uncompleted Dark Blood, wrote a touching paternal note, saying quote,
I only knew him for eight weeks, but I felt
I could know him forever end quote. Nearly three decades
(17:33):
after his death, River Phoenix's influence continues to reverberate throughout Hollywood.
From his fearless choice of roles to his commitment to activism,
he set a precedent for young actors to pursue meaningful
work while staying true to their values. To help us
understand the actor's lasting impact, Variety's executive editor Brent Lang
(17:56):
and chief film critic Owen Gleiberman join us now. Together,
we'll discuss River's influence on the film industry, his enduring
cultural resonance, and the lessons his life and death have imparted.
Oh On, when you think back to the nineties, who
were the other actors who were in the same league
as River.
Speaker 6 (18:17):
There was definitely a new generation of actors coming together
in the nineties. I guess you could sort of say
that their forbear with Sean pen because he was that
one actor in the nineties who'd come up through that
kind of cheeseball culture but was much more serious, much
more moody, much darker. So the new generation was darker.
(18:40):
But then you had people like Matt Damon come Along
in a sense, who was a very serious actor but
also kind of an old school young leading man in
a way. I think someone like River Phoenix probably had
the potential to be that and might have become that.
I mean, I think it's so interesting to talk about
(19:02):
what would have happened had he not died. I think,
you know, he could have gone anywhere. He could have
been a very very big star. He could have had
leading man roles. I think the best way to think
about what would have happened to River Phoenix had he
lived is to follow the prototype of Brad Pitt. You know,
he went after the role. River Phoenix went after the
role that Brad Pitt got in A River runs through it,
(19:26):
and you can sort of see him following that trajectory
being this kind of good looking movie young star. And
people didn't take Brad Pitt that seriously at the start,
but he proved himself as an actor in movie after movie,
and I think River Phoenix would have had I'm not
saying he would have had the exact same kind of career,
(19:47):
but I think he would have had those kinds of
opportunity to be the leading man, to be in popcorn
movies to be in deadly serious indie movies the whole thing,
or Phoenix had ever made comic book blockbusters or something.
I can't predict yes or no, but what I can
say is he would have had that opportunity. They would
(20:10):
have rolled out the red carpet for him to play
those kinds of roles, and at a certain point he
would have probably had to make a choice, you know,
am I going to Am I gonna do that mainstream
Hollywood thing. My guess is that he would have because
I don't think he had the kind of chip on
(20:30):
his shoulder about that stuff that someone like Sean Penn does.
And I'm not dissing Sean Penn by saying that, because
Sean Penn, in a way has walked the straight and
arrow for decades as an actor, always taking just roles
that he thinks are are interesting, and there's a tremendous
integrity to the way that he's done that. But then
there's also the thing that just says, all right, let's
(20:51):
go let's do a blockbuster, let's do a comic book movie.
Let's try that on. Let's see what it looks like.
Plenty of great actors have done that.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Phoenix. I could see.
Speaker 6 (21:01):
I could see him going that way because I just
think he had that kind of spark. I think he
was a very serious actor who didn't take himself that seriously.
He was not pretentious about himself, and I think he
kind of went with the flow.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
And Brad, how about you.
Speaker 7 (21:17):
I mean, I think if you look at basically Leonardo
DiCaprio's career, there's no reason that River couldn't have played
almost any of those roles. And I would assume he
would have been up for most of them. I mean,
I could have seen him. He was such a good
actor that he could have played the role that Leo
played in Titanic, or he could have played the role
(21:38):
that Leo nearly played in Boogie Knights that ultimately Mark
Wahlberg played. I mean, I think he would have been
up for basically anything.
Speaker 5 (21:46):
You know.
Speaker 7 (21:46):
I don't think he would have been sort of the
Russell Crowe burly man. It would have been more of
the kind of the sensitive star. But he really could
have done it all. And I think he also could
have straddled that gap between kind of the more commercially
minded fair and the more director driven stuff, because already
he had worked with really great filmmakers. He'd worked with Spielberg,
(22:09):
He'd worked with Sidney Lamett, He'd worked with Gus van Sand,
He'd worked with Rob Reiner. I mean, all of these
people are very serious minded directors, and it sort of
showed how in demand he was. He worked with Peter
Weir at Mosquito Coast. He was a Harrison Ford had
sort of had told Spielberg to cast him in the
Indiana Jones film, so he had the endorsement of a
(22:32):
lot of major industry figures at the time of his death.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Thanks Brent. Now, let's listen to this interview from the
early nineties.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
No.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I started acting through auditioning and trial by uh basically.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
Howl do you then when you started ten does that?
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Some television commercials and then later you get cast in
the film if you're lucky.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Really explain why I understand what I understand, I just do,
and to try to figure it out I think would
kind of ruin it, you know. I want to leave
it like a mine of gold, you know, without ever
mining it, you know, and selling it. I want to
sell it off. I don't want to talk about it.
I don't want to understand it.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
In a way that will.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Exploit the pureness.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
So I just leave it.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I don't understand it, but I believe it.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
You're a natural.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I'm not saying anything.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
I'd say, Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
In many ways, River Phoenix's legacy continues through his brother Joaquin,
who was one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and
won the Best Actor Oscar for playing Joker in twenty twenty.
In his acceptance speech, Joaquin dedicated the award to his
late brother and even teared up toward the end when
he spoke about a lyric.
Speaker 8 (23:52):
River wrote, Now, I've been I've been a scoundrel in
my life. I've been selfish, I've been cruel at times,
hard to work with, and ungrateful. But so many of
you in this room have given me a second chance.
And I think that's when we're at our best. When
(24:14):
we support each other, not when we cancel each other
out for past mistakes, but when we help each other
to grow, when we educate each other, when we guide
each other towards redemption. That is the best of humanity.
I just want to he was when he was when
(24:41):
he was seventeen, My brother wrote this lyric. He said,
run to the rescue with love and peace will follow.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
That was one of the most memorable Oscar moments that year. Brent,
what impact did River's death have on Joaquin's career.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
I don't actually really know what the impact was on
ja Quin's career, other than you know, when Joaquin Phoenix
accepted his Oscar, he quoted his brother and that sort
of says in a song that his brother had written,
and so that indicates that that his impact on his
brother was pretty seismic, and it continues. And I think
(25:22):
if you if you look at Laquin Phoenix and how
talented he is and just sort of generationally gifted he is,
it's it's possible that River Phoenix would have had an
even bigger career because I think that he had all
of the Jaquini ja Quing Phoenix's kind of chameleonic talents
and his ability to really like have this unearthed, this
(25:46):
kind of rich emotional life with his characters. But he
was a little more forward facing and a little more
charming frankly in a conventional sense. So I think he
could have had an even bigger career than his brother.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
And Owen, what are your impressions of the Phoenix brothers
performances side by side.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Well, it's fascinating to think Hed River lived, you know,
of the idea of these side by side brothers both
having these blossoming careers, But I think it easily could
have happened because they're really such different actors. Joaquin Phoenix
from the beginning, My first memory of him was seeing
him in To Die For. He had that very Joaquin
(26:30):
quality that he still has. There is something dark about him.
He's drawn to playing you know, kind of twisted characters,
not that there was not a core of normality and
empathy to him. I mean he has that, That's why
he's a great actor. But you know, he definitely likes
to dance on the edge and on the edge of
(26:50):
darkness and all of that, and I think that River
Phoenix has some of that. I mean, they came from
the same family, and I think both of them reflect
that strange upbringing they had, where you know, they were
raised by hippie parents who moved around all the time.
When River was three, his family joined the Children of
(27:11):
God religious cult. They were missionaries in Venezuela. He talked
about being sexually abused and was very negative about that.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
Cult later on.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
You know, it was a family with a very you know,
eccentric upbringing that I think left its mark. But I
think that River Phoenix probably could have ended up being
more of the leading man. But you know, to the
extent that he had this James Dean quality that is
very much a leading man quality. It's it's it is
(27:47):
the classic Hollywood tradition that goes back to Dean and
then through Robert Redford, actors like Brad Pitt. I think
River Phoenix was, you know, was on that spectrum. And
I think he would have had a lot of opportunities,
not just because he was very good looking, but because
he had it's that magical charisma that makes a star,
(28:11):
you know. He he could have had the opportunities to
do in the nineties, let's say, a romantic comedy. Would
he have taken that? Maybe, maybe not, but I think
he could have done it in a way that Joaquin
Phoenix was just not going to do that. I think
Joaquin would have ended up being, you know, relatively speaking,
the darker of the two. But who knows, because River
(28:32):
Phoenix was, as I said, very drawn to playing alienated characters.
It's just hard to say, but I think I think
he would have been He would have blossomed into a
true leading man. If that's not an outdated phrase.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Brent, let me ask you, do you think River influenced
the generation of actors that came after him.
Speaker 7 (28:55):
I think of him as being really one of the
leaders of that generation of young stars who kind of
emerged in the latter half of the nineteen eighties. And
what he'd done very successfully was he'd shown that he
could do a number of different genres. He wasn't a
certifiable box office draw yet, but he was kind of
(29:17):
putting all the pieces together where you could see him
having a career that kind of was able to move
seamlessly between sort of more adult oriented, artistic types of
films and maybe some more commercially minded stuff. Of course,
that kind of depended on like the choice he made
in his career, and I think he was still sort
(29:40):
of trying to figure himself out as an artist. My
Own Private Idaho was really a very important film for
him because it gave him a kind of like underground
edgy cred, and it moved him from being a sort
of pin up for people to being a kind of
a more dangerous star. He was kind of reinventing himself
(30:02):
with that movie, but it's definitely not inconceivable that he
would have had a career that was very similar to
Leonardo DiCaprio, where you sort of started off with these
showy performances and then you kind of moved more into
mainstream fair And even at the time he died, he
(30:23):
was about to do interview with the Vampire, playing the
role that Christian Slater ended up playing, and that sort
of shows that Hollywood still saw him as one of
his kind of most promising twenty somethings year old stars.
If you look at this generation of actors. I mean,
first of all, I think what's interesting is if you
(30:44):
talk to a lot of this generation of actors, they
would probably cite River Phoenix as an influence of them,
which sort of shows just the extent of his impact,
not just on his death, which I'm sure people remember,
but also his life and his work. And I do
think that, you know, Timothy Shallomy definitely has a sort
(31:04):
of a similar appeal to River Phoenix. He's he seems sensitive,
sort of artistically minded, He's you know, obviously he's very attractive,
and there's almost a certain like femininity and to both
of them that is really appealing and I think really
comes through on film well. And actually, if you look
(31:26):
at a lot of the great stars, there is a
certain like femininity to them, even Rando and Dean, a
kind of a gentleness that all of those those actors share,
and I think River Phoenix really had that too. You
want to kind of protect him when you see him
on screen, and that's why when he's in certain movies
(31:49):
and he you know, there's this scene and stand by
Me where he talks about the milk money being stolen
and he kind of breaks down, and it's a very
it really sticks with you because because because you do
want the best for that character, because there is something,
some quality in the actor saying those words that allows
you to forge this kind of like very intense connection
(32:11):
with him.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
In addition to Timothy Shallomey, who else do you think
closely resembles River's acting style?
Speaker 7 (32:18):
Definitely Jacob ELORDI. I mean, there's there's a lot of
other actors that, I mean, even Tom Holland a little bit,
although I think River Phoenix was probably a better actor.
No offense to Tom Holland, but just that he kind
of had more range, but you know, definitely Tom Holland.
I think Barry Kyogan is probably a little more eccentric
than River Phoenix, but more aligned with Joaquin. Probably Chalomey
(32:42):
is probably the one who's the most most similar.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Oh one, How do you think River influenced the generation
of actors that came after him, including Joaquin.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
I think River Phoenix might have had a real influence
on the actors who came after him in that his few,
sadly few years of prominence really did overlap with the
start of the American independent film movement, the American independent
film revolution. I mean, the American independent film movement had
(33:15):
gone back to the nineteen fifties, but I'm talking about
the revolution that started in the nineties, where these films
suddenly became talked about in a much bigger way. They
got seen, they became big movies, even as they were
carrying through a lot of the darker themes and themes
(33:36):
of alienation and questioning authority and questioning just everything about
life that you saw in the films of the seventies.
And so he kind of dovetailed with that, and I
think in that small handful of extraordinary performances that he
gave us. He showed the way for young actors. He
showed that young actors could embrace these kinds of roles
(34:00):
and find a kind of truth in them, because that
is what American independent film was supposed to be about.
Hollywood was about, you know, projecting a certain fantasy, but
indie movies were going to return us to the idea
of cinema really trying to find, you know, put its
finger on certain truths about things. And that happens with actors.
(34:22):
That's what actors do. It's actors who take us into
the truth of what they're showing us. And he just
had that quality. There was something very very pure about it.
I first noticed him and noticed his talent in stand
By Me. But the movie that really made me wake
up and say, oh my gosh, I mean this guy
(34:43):
is a major actor was running on empty in nineteen
eighty eight. And the whole soul of that in the
movie is River Phoenix in his performance, because he is
the son who has now essentially grown up and he
wants to go to college and can he do that.
It's like he can't, he can't do that without putting
(35:04):
his family in danger. So it actually becomes this very
very interesting situation and River Phoenix's performance, where I would
say it's very James dem like, is that this is
exactly the kind of role where you would expect the
kid to be kind of a rebel or now rebelling
against his parents, saying, you know, I want to go
(35:26):
to college. You know, you can take your hippie stuff
and I don't care about that. But he doesn't play
it like that at all.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
He plays the.
Speaker 6 (35:32):
Character as extraordinarily sincere and it's really very sleeve young man,
and there's something just very authentic about his performance. He
roots you in that movie. He makes the whole movie
work and it becomes actually a powerful experience. And I
(35:53):
think when you watch his acting in that movie where
he was only seventeen or eighteen when he shot it,
you see not only his extraordinary skill as an actor,
you just see the quality he had as an actor,
this quality of sincerity where he could be I don't
know what the word is, the everyman, the person where
(36:13):
you know you just identify with him. He is. He's real,
but he's also in a way your best self. That
is part of the magic of what stardom is, where
you want to watch this person, but he's also projecting
almost this kind of down to earth moral quality he
had that I think had River Phoenix lived and thrived
(36:38):
into the nineties, the only thing I can predict about
his career is that he would have been extraordinarily successful,
because I think he had that double edged thing of
he was a fantastic actor and he was a very sexy,
good looking, glamorous star, and that gives you a lot
(36:58):
of power in both directions. I think any number of
filmmakers would have wanted to work with him. But beyond that,
I think by definition it's unpredictable because the way the
movie business works is you do a certain movie and
it becomes big. Let's say, might be an indie film,
might be a Hollywood film, and then that role defines
(37:22):
you in a certain way, and everything you do after
that it doesn't have to necessarily just repeat that. But
then you're kind of taking off from that in this direction.
But I think he would have been huge.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
River Phoenix's story is one of brilliant and heartbreak. He
serves as both an inspiration and a cautionary tale, reminding
us of the beauty and fragility of human life. As
we close this season of Variety Confidential. We honor River
not just as an actor, but as a person whose
light continues to shine through the lives he touched and
(37:56):
the art he created. Thank you for joining us for
this season of Variety Confidential, the life and legend of
River Phoenix. Don't forget to subscribe and read more at
Variety dot com. Variety Confidential is hosted by Tatiana Siegel
and produced by Karen Mizugucci and Sidney Kramer. Written by
(38:18):
Anna Moslim, Karen Mizugucci and Tatiana Siegal. Executive produced by
Dea Lawrence, Variety's co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton, and
Ramins A two day edited and mixed by Aaron Greenawald
Variety Content Studio Executive Producer Alex Hughes. Please refer to
sources and citations on Variety dot com.
Host
Tatiana Siegel
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