June 20, 2025 • 35 mins
-
Cruz vs. Carlson on Foreign Policy:
- Cruz defends a strong U.S. alliance with Israel and supports aggressive action against Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
- Carlson is portrayed as advocating for isolationism, opposing U.S. involvement in foreign conflicts, and questioning support for Israel.
-
Tensions and “Gotcha” Moments:
- Carlson challenges Cruz with questions like the population of Iran, which Cruz admits he didn’t know offhand.
- Cruz criticizes Carlson for using such moments to create viral clips rather than engage in substantive debate.
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Iranian Threats Against Trump:
- Cruz cites intelligence and DOJ reports alleging that Iran has plotted to assassinate Donald Trump and former Trump officials.
- Carlson is skeptical or unaware of these claims, leading to a heated exchange.
-
Accusations of Anti-Israel Bias:
- Cruz accuses Carlson of obsessively targeting Israel and groups like AIPAC, suggesting a double standard not applied to other U.S. allies.
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Moral Clarity and American Exceptionalism:
- Cruz argues against moral relativism, asserting that the U.S. and its leaders are fundamentally different from authoritarian regimes like Russia or Iran.
- He emphasizes “peace through strength” and a foreign policy based on protecting American interests.
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Trump’s Position:
- Trump is quoted supporting Cruz’s stance and reaffirming his own “America First” doctrine, particularly in opposing a nuclear-armed Iran.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome. It is Verdict with Center, Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson
with you. It's so nice to have you with us.
Many of you listening to this on radio around the country,
and we are thrilled to have you with us as well.
Don't forget we do this show as a podcast, so
make sure you hit that subscriber auto download button if
you download Vertic with Tech Cruse. We do it three
days a week, and obviously this radio show as well. Senator,
(00:23):
We've got a lot to talk about in the show,
but let's just start with the big thing everybody's wanting
to hear about, and that is your sit down interview
in your office with Tucker Carlson.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, this week I sat down with Tucker Carlson. We
did a two hour interview in my office and I
got to tell you it was a bloodbath. The two
of us frankly beat the living daylights out of each
other for two hours straight. It was there were fireworks,
I'll tell you online there have been over one hundred
million views on clips from this show. It was vigorous,
(00:58):
it was contested, it was look. It laid out two
very different views on foreign policy, and it's what we're
going to talk about today.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, it really is an incredible on the foreign policy front.
So let's just start with the basic question that I
think so many people have been asking me when they
saw the sibbits of this interview, and I would actually
encourage people to watch the entire interview, not just the
little things that popped on social media, but number one
like why did you decide to do this interview with him?
(01:29):
And did do you think it was going to be
like this?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, let me start with the second part first. Yes,
I knew exactly what it was going to be. I
knew that Tucker when he asked for the interview, I
knew that he was doing it to come after me.
I knew he was going to come in and just
be swinging as hard as he could. And I went in.
I wasn't looking to pick a fight, and in fact,
we started the interview with my pointing out. I said, Tucker, listen,
(01:54):
you and I we agree on about eighty percent of issues.
We agree across the board. And I said, Tucker, you
have been fantastic on a ton of issues. You've been
fantastic on securing the border. That is a deep passion
of mine. We have got to secure the border. And
when Joe Biden the Democrats had opened borders, you were
ferocious in fighting for that which I have been fighting
(02:15):
alongside that with all my might. I will say during COVID,
during the COVID lockdowns, Tucker was phenomenal. In fact, to
the middle of the COVID lockdowns. I called Tucker back
when he had a show on Fox, and I told him,
I said, Tucker, your evening monologues are the single best
thing on television. I listened to them. I consume them
(02:36):
like crack every night because they are so good. Because
he was speaking out, he was speaking out powerfully against
the insanity of shutting down our country, against the insanity
of shutting down small businesses, against the insanity of shutting
down churches, against the insanity of shutting down schools. And
over ten million kids did not go to in person
school for over a year. And by the way, the
(02:58):
data all show the learning loss to kids from that
idiotic social experiment is going to be with them their
entire life. I think ten, twenty, thirty, forty years from now,
we're going to look back and say, what idiocy prompted
this country to shut down schools and hurt so many kids.
So on all of those issues, on free speech, on
the Second Amendment, Tucker's been fantastic, and we aren't exactly
(03:20):
the same page on all of those issues. Now, I
did acknowledge there are issues on which we disagree. I
knew that Tucker wanted the interview because he wanted to
come after me, and I knew that it was going
to be particularly spicy, a lot of fireworks, because Tucker
in the last week has gotten really crosswise with President Trump.
(03:42):
Tucker has blasted the President and said that the President
was complicit in Israel's war. He said that the President's
actions were not consistent with America first. And so I
knew that Tucker was going to be hot and that
I was going to be the target to take his
ir out. I did the interview because listen, although Tucker
(04:03):
is right on a whole lot of issues on foreign policy,
I think he's gone really off the rails. He has
gotten to a place of hardcore isolationism that I think
is really dangerous. It's not good for America. I disagree
with it. He does not want America to support Israel.
He does not want America to do anything to stop
Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, and he is vocally
(04:27):
and vigorously disagreeing with President Trump. And I thought it
was important for me to do this interview to explain
what President Trump is doing and to defend the president,
to stand with President Trump. And I got to tell you,
the entire theme of my interview was very simple. Donald
Trump is right, and Tucker on Iran and Israel, you're wrong.
(04:49):
And that was the whole point of the interview that
came across at great length. Now, we did the interview
and on Tuesday, and then Tucker released it on Wednesday.
But before Wednesday, he released a little stippet and in
two hours. Look, I'm gonna give Tucker some credit, he
had a little gotcha moment. So two hours of back
and forth and back and forth and back and forth,
(05:09):
and he decided to play a little gotcha moment. So
so in the course of talking about Iran, he asks me,
he says, well, what's the population of Iran? And I
thought about it for a second and realized I didn't
actually know the exact population of Iran, and so I
just said I don't know, and he did the sort
of classic Tucker, what how can you not know that,
(05:31):
And I mean, he was, you know, vibrating and looking
as if I had, you know, admitted to I don't know,
committing treason or something. And I just said, look, I
don't memorize population tables. And he comes in with with great,
great joy and says and I asked him, I said,
what's the population of Iran? He says ninety two million. Actually,
(05:55):
according to the Google searches afterwards, it's eighty nine million,
so he was off three million, which I think is
funny because I assume he Google searched it right before
the interview so he could do his little gotcha. And
I'll confess this may not be terribly credible, but the
truth of the matter is in my head what I
was going to say, if I was guessing, was ninety million.
So I was actually felt pretty good. I'm like, huh,
(06:15):
all right, pretty damn close. But I said, look, what
difference does it make if it's ninety million or eighty
million or a hundred million. And the reason I didn't
want to positive guess is because stupid and unfair interviews.
You play gotcha's on this and I'll say things like
population numbers. There are all sorts of countries across the
globe that have sort of really surprising populations that they
(06:37):
can have populations that are either significantly bigger than you
would think, are significantly smaller than you would think. And
at the end of the day, what I was talking about,
which is the Iatola, theocratic radical lunatic who chance death
to American is trying to develop a nuclear weapon. The
thread of that is not remotely different whether Iran has
(06:58):
a population of eighty million, ninety million, hundred million. So
it was an irrelevant gotcha. But that little clip, what
Tucker did is he released it a day before the
whole interview, so he picked out of two hours. He
thought that was the best sixty seconds because he did
get me to say the words I don't know, and
he felt very gleeful on that I got to say.
The rest of the interview as it played out, there's
(07:19):
a reason he wanted to start with that clip. And
that clip went viral, and that's fine, but there's a
reason he wanted to start with that clip because the
rest of the interview. Tucker's positions on Israel were very clear.
He didn't want to stand with Israel. He was and
we're going to lay this out in the course of
the show. Deeply opposed to Israel, and he was deeply
(07:40):
opposed to President Trump's policy, and in fact, he had
been in writing and vocally attacking President Trump. And he
didn't want to talk about that in terms of putting
it out the results of the interview. But that's why
I did the interview.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So I've done interviews that have been pretty snarky. I
worked seen in for a long time as a conservative commentator.
Are you glad you did the interview? Because I always
got that question and it's the same one. I know
a lot of people want to ask you.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Absolutely one thousand percent.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Look, could the interview have been much better? If Tucker
had wanted to sit down and have a reasonable, thoughtful conversation,
let me speak, let him speak, us go back and
forth and lay out different visions of foreign policy, that
would have been a much much better interview. But Tucker
didn't want to do that. When he didn't like what
you're saying, he interrupts, he gets snarky, he insults you,
(08:30):
and you're gonna hear all that because that's what he did.
But that's fine, I mean it. He decided he wanted
this interview to be the two of us scream at
each other. So that's what it ended up being. But
I'm very glad because it was important to lay out
the contrast. Donald Trump is right and Tucker Carlson is
wrong on Israel and Iran, and I wanted to make
(08:51):
that absolutely clear.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
One of the big differences between the two of you
was on what success looks like, especially when it comes
to Israel taking out top Iranian military leadership.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, that's exactly right. Israel right now is taking out
the senior Iranian military leadership. And this is a regime.
When the Iotola chants death to America, I believe him.
When he chants death to Israel, I believe him. When
he calls Israel the little Satan in America the great Satan,
I believe that he believes that. And so the Iatola's
(09:24):
efforts to develop nuclear weapons they are designed for one
very specific purpose, which is to be able to attack
Israel and America. And let me point out, by the way,
there is a reason the Iatola has an ICBM program.
ICBM stands for intercontinental ballistic missile. You do not need
an ICBM to attack Israel. Right now, Iran is pounding
(09:48):
Israel with ballistic missiles, but Israel is relatively close to Iran.
Iran wants an ICBM for one purpose and one purpose only,
to be able to carry a nuclear warhead to the
unit the States of America. And so that is the
threat we are facing. And Israel is doing an enormous
favor to America by taking out Iran's nuclear capability. Here,
(10:11):
give a listen to Tucker and me discussing exactly this point.
Do you want to ask how to supporting Israel benefit us?
Right now? This tiny little country the size of the
state of New Jersey is fighting our enemies for US
and taking out their top military leadership and trying to
take out their nuclear capacity. That makes America much safer.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Right, by the way, You're absolutely right. I mean Israel
is taking out top Perhanian military leadership. And yes, Israel
is fighting our enemies right now for US and not
just America, but many other countries around the world.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, and it benefits America. Understand, these nuclear weapons are
being developed so they can attack America. And it's not
American soldiers who are taking out these nuclear facilities. It
is Israeli commandos who are doing so that's something we
should be grateful for. But but Tucker Carlson has been
(11:02):
vigorously criticizing President Trump for standing with Israel on this
and and here's another segment with with with Tucker and
me discussing this point that I.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Willing to spend money opposed to that it's awful. I
am against killing anybody, actually, and especially foreign government. I'm
asking about your allegation in the Prime Minister of Israel's
allegation that.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Is killing Terris is a good thing. Killing people are
trying to murder Americans is a good thing because if
you're America first, you want to protect American So taking
out killing O'samovan Laden was a fantastic But you don't
believe that they're trying to murder Trump or you ain't it? Yes,
but why are you, senator?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
You said earlier in the interview with him at the
beginning and on this show that you and Tucker agree
on about eighty percent of the issues, like hardcore lockstep.
But this one here is maybe the most insane point
where Pucker's like, Hey, I don't want to kill anybody
around the world, no matter what I'm like, hold on,
if you had a chance to take out Hitler, you
wouldn't have done it. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, this is unfortunately a point that frankly, you see
from a lot of people on the far left. You
see from the sort of Jimmy Carter's of the world,
and even Barack Obama's, the kind of piece nicks that say, man,
all war is bad. Just just you know, killing is bad.
I'm just opposed to killing. And I get that that
sounds good in a college faculty lounge. But as I
(12:30):
asked him in the course of it, I'm like, did
you think it's bad that we killed Osama bin Laden?
Do you think it's bad that that that Hitler's dead?
Do you think it's bad that we killed General Solomony?
Do you think it's bad that And let's be clear
that President Trump killed General Solomony. I asked him that
he wouldn't answer, that, he wouldn't ask answer if it
was if it was good or bad that we killed
(12:51):
Osama bin Laden. That the idea that we should never
kill anybody is an incredibly naive and unrealistic position. Look,
I think we should avoid unnecessary wars. I think we
should be very reluctant to put American servicemen and women
in harm's way. But when you have terrorists, killing Osama
bin Laden was a great day for America and a
(13:12):
great day for the world because Osama bin Laden murdered
thousands of Americans and waged war against America. And anyone
who is actually focused on America first and defending this
nation understands that there are dangerous people that are trying
to kill Americans and it's the job of the commander
in chief to keep them safe. Now, I will say,
(13:34):
in a two hour interview, one of the things that
was striking is thirty six minutes of the interview was
Tucker attacking me for supporting Israel, and in particular, he
was obsessed with APAC. APAC is the America Israel Political
(13:55):
Action Committee, and he was going on and on and
on about how APAC should have to register under Farah,
the law that requires that that organizations that are lobbying
on behalf of foreign governments have to register. Now, APAK
is not lobbying on behalf of a foreign government. APAC
consists of Americans. It is Americans who are standing up.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
Now.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
There are Americans who want a strong US Israel relationship,
but they are not a lobbyist for the nation of Israel.
And all told, he asked twenty eight questions on APAC,
twenty eight questions. He asked thirty five questions on why
I was supporting Israel, and finally it led to this moment,
which was quite a bit of fireworks. Here. Give a listen.
(14:39):
By the way, Tucker, it's a very weird thing, the
obsession with Israel, and we're talking about foreign count You're
not talking about Chinese, you're not talking about Japanesi, not
talking about the Brits, you're not talking about the French.
The question what about the Jews? What about the Jews?
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Tey semi?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Now, Senator, you're just in the question, Tucker, you're asking
why are the Jews who controlling our foreign policy?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
That's what you just asked, hardly saying that, and I
have that's exactly what you just said.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It is, by the way, exactly he was saying over
and over again, as you mentioned for so long and again,
the demonization of Americans, and many of them they're Jewish
that advocate for Israel in America and say they should
be foreign lobbyist organization. Look, I've spoken at one of
their events before. I'm sure you've spoken it countless events
for them before. The idea that there's some foreign agency
(15:28):
is absurd yea.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
And he also had a whole line of inquiry, isn't
it horrible that Israel spies on America? My response was,
every one of our allies spies on America. We spy
on every one of our allies. That's real politique, that's
the world we live in. And he could not acknowledge
that point. He said, no, no, but Israel does it.
It's terrible that Israel does it. And it was bizarrely focused. Okay, look,
(15:52):
the Brits spy on us, the Canadian spy on us,
the French spy on us. Everybody spies on us, and
we spy on everybody. Welcome to reality, because conservatives are
not simple and naive. And yet the criticism that is
directed at Israel sadly is unique and I think really unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I want to get back into the Tucker Carlson interview
that you did and center there was some interesting themes
that came out of this interview. He was obviously attacking you,
he was attacking Israel, he was attacking groups that support Israel.
But then there was an even weirder point where I
think Tucker probably is hoping that we don't play this,
(16:31):
or that people didn't watch the whole interview and hear
this part. It was about the Iranian regime. They've been
trying to murder Donald Trump. They've hired hitman, They've been
trying to hire hitman. They've come after former cabinet members
of Donald Trump. And when you brought it up, he
acted like he'd never heard of this before and that
you were either lying or this is shocking news to him.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, this was utterly bizarre, and I got to say,
in the whole course of the two hour interview, this
was the strangest portion. For the last two years, Iran
has been active trying to murder President Donald Trump. Iran
has hired hitman to murder President Trump, and Ran also
has been trying to murder Mike Pompeo, President Trump's former
secretary of State, John Bolton, President Trump's former national security advisor,
(17:15):
and Brian Hook, President Trump's former assistant secretary of state.
All of them, Iran has hired hitman and has been
targeting them bizarrely, and this has been widely reported. These
are objective facts, but bizarrely, Tucker Carlson assisted insisted this
has never happened. Here, give a listen.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
I just want to pull that thread because it's so important.
I voted for Donald Trump. I can't paign for Donald Trump.
He's our president and won in the cusp of a war.
So if Iran, if there's evidence that Iran paid hitman
to kill Donald Trump and is currently doing that, where's that?
What are you even talking? I've never heard that before. Okay,
where's the evidence? Who are these people? Why haven't they
been arrested? Why are we not at war with Iran?
(17:53):
That's a great question to ask. How do you know
that that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
We know that it's true because we have been told
that by the military and our intelligence community for the
last two years. We meaning who Congress has in the public.
I mean it had multiple testimonies. I can send you
test We know the.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Names of the people are where this happened, or what
they tried to do to kill Trump.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
We do not. We have not apprehended an Iranian hit
man trying to kill him. We know that Iran is
trying to do so in the United States. Yes, and
by the way, like Iran, this just seems like a
huge headline and you're acting like everyone knows this. I
didn't know that Iran put out a whole video about
murdering Trump, right, but I've never heard evidence that there
(18:37):
are hitmen in the United States, I mean, trying to
kill Trump right now, we should like have a nationwide
dragged down on this and we should attack Iran immediately
if that's true. Don't you think no, but they're trying
to assassinate our president. They have been for two years.
They are more with them. Well we are trying.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
To Why don't we just knwke teard if they're trying
to murder our president. There's nothing that you could do
that would be worse for the United States than murdering Trump.
And I just don't understand why you're not calling for
the use of nuclear weapons against the ee tootal right now,
I'm serious, if you really believe there's a use of
nuclear weapons, whatever the problem of so mean, you don't
seem to take the allegation seriously.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
I do.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
If you believe they're trying to murder Trump, we need
to stop what we're doing and punish them.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I mean, insanely bizarre. We went from let's not do
anything to Oh, they're trying to kill Trump. Well, if
that's true, let's just nuke them.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
So you're right.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
The entire two hours, Tucker's position was do nothing on Iran,
do nothing on Iran, do nothing on Iran, do not
support Israel, do not support Israel, do not support Israel.
But if Iran is trying to murder Trump, then we
should nuke them. Okay, Ben, that's absolutely wacky. And look,
it's the sign of someone who's not presenting an argument
(19:50):
in good faith. No, we should not be nuking Iran.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
That that's not.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
A good idea. And by the way, this is a
point where actually facts matter. And part of what was
frustrating about this interview is that Tucker just says things
that are blatantly false and he doesn't care if they're
true or false. So this is an objective fact. I'm
going to read to you from a political article on
November eighth, twenty twenty four, not very long ago. Here's
(20:16):
the title. Iran ordered an operative to assassinate Trump before
the election. Federal prosecutors say the alleged would be assassin
is believed to be in Iran and remains at large,
Prosecutors said, here's the beginning of the article. The Iranian
government ordered an operative to assassinate Donald Trump before the
twenty twenty four election, Manhattan Federal prosecutors said Friday, the
latest in a string of assassination plots directed at the
(20:39):
former and future president in recent months. Prosecutors charged Farhad
Shakiri with murder for hire and providing material support to
foreign terrorist organization. He is believed to be in Iran
and remains at large, Prosecutors said. The article continues quote.
According to a criminal complaint unsealed in Manhattan Federal Court,
Kiri said during fb I interview that in September he
(21:02):
was directed by the Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran to
surveil and kill Trump, whom the charging papers identify as
victim for. When Shakiri told an IRGC official that doing
so would prove expensive, the official responded that money's not
an issue, which Shakiri understood to mean that the IRGC
(21:23):
had previously spent a significant sum of money on efforts
to murder victim four and was willing to continue spending
a lot of money in its attempt to procure victims
for assassination. According to the charging papers. So there's literally
a Department of Justice indictments specifically against an assassin for
(21:43):
attempting to murder Trump. There also, by the way, was
a separate assassin who was arrested for renting an apartment
next to John Bolton, an Iranian assassin that was there
to murder Trump's former national security advisor. And as I noted,
the Iranians put out an entire video, a minute and
a half video. It's an animated video that shows Donald
Trump playing golf and shows the Iranians using a drone
(22:07):
attack to kill him. All of that is is objectively true,
and yet Tucker says, I've never heard a word of it.
I don't know anything about this, and I want to.
I want to play this video right here. This is
in Farsi, but but I want to play it, and
then I'm going to tell you what what what he's saying.
So give a listen.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Well, I mean, mckinzio in.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
So let's just be queer. That's the IRGC commander live
on Islamic Republic of Iran state TV and tell people
what he just said.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Well, his name is Amir Ali hadjes Zade. He's the
commander of the IRGC. He's on national television and he says,
quote God willing will be able to kill Trump, Pompeo,
General McKenzie, and other US commanders. That's on TV now.
Tucker spent the entire interview denying that Iran was trying
(23:19):
to kill President Trump. That's objectively false. Facts matter, And bizarrely,
he said, well, if that fact was true, he thought
we should immediately attack Iran and we should nuw Kran. Well, no,
that's not the case. We should not Knukran, but we
should do what President Trump is doing right now, which
is support Israel in taking out Iran's nuclear capability and
their senior military leadership. That actually makes sense. And I'll
(23:42):
tell you that. The day after our interview aired, President
Trump was asked about the conflict between me and Tucker
in the Oval office. And here give a listen to
the back and forth President Trump had in the Oval
with a reporter.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Can you see the Tucker Carlson and Senator Ted Cruz interview.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It seems like this issue on whether or not the
United States strike is kind of dividing a lot of
your supporters.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
No, my supporters are for me. My supporters are America first.
They make America great again. My supporters don't want to
see around have a nuclear weapon. Tucker's a nice guy.
He called apologized the other day because he thought he
said things a little bit too strong, and I appreciated that.
And Ted Cruise is a nice guy. I mean, he's
been with me for a long time. I'd say once
(24:25):
the race was over, he's been with me ever since.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Right, but very simple.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
If they think that it's okay for Iran to have
a nuclear weapon, then they should oppose me. But nobody
thinks it's okay.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
This goes back to the very beginning and why I
think Tucker was so hostile. He wanted a distraction from
the fact that he had messed up with Trump. He
had to call Trump and apologize, and he thought, all right,
if I just go after Ted Cruz, maybe that'll fix
all my problems. I don't think it worked well.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
And look, the reason that that Tucker had to apologize
to Trump is that he had been publicly blasting Trump.
He said Trump was complicit in Israel's war, and he
said he said what Trump was doing was not America first.
And President Trump tweeted out and said, look, I'm the
one who created America first, and I decide what it is.
And allowing Iran to have a nuclear weapon that is
(25:18):
not America first. And that's exactly what President Trump said
in the oval. You know what's amazing. We've laid out
the facts that is undisputed, by the way, out of
one hundred senators, all one hundred degree, that Iran is
trying to murder President Trump, even the looniest, even Bernie Sanders,
even Elizabeth Warren doesn't dispute that Iran is trying to
(25:38):
murder Trump because it's an objective fact. I've laid them out,
those facts out repeatedly. You know, Tucker has not responded
once to that. He has not said, oh I was
wrong on that. He hasn't said, oh well, gosh. I said,
if that was the case, we should attack. I ran
immediately in nuke them, which, by the way, to be clear,
we should not. At the end of the day, facts matter,
and the good news is the Commander in chiefs JO
(26:00):
is to be clear eyed and do what is necessary
to keep America safe. President Trump is doing that. I
spoke to him just a few days ago and I said,
mister President, thank you, thank you for standing with Israel,
thank you for standing up for America. Thank you for
defending our servicemen and women. You noticed Iran has not
attacked our servicemen and women because the President has made
clear the consequences would be massive for doing so. And
(26:23):
President Trump right now is being strong and resolute, and
I'm proud to stand with the President that he is
doing exactly the right thing. He is embodying America first,
and he's keeping this country safe.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And there's one big definition that has been coming up,
and I've seen it a lot, and I've been asked about,
especially since it's interview, and it's the argument, are the
word isolationists or isolationism?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (26:52):
And then your thoughts on it, Senator, so people understand it,
but also what is your foreign policies so people to
understand you're not an isolationist and you're not one of
those it's like, hey, let's go to war everywhere we
can't either.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And this is something we talked
about quite a bit in the in the the interview
with Tucker Carlson, and and when he wasn't screaming at me,
and it wasn't a mud mess. We actually laid out
some really important basic philosophy on foreign policy. Look, historically,
there have been two polls in Republican foreign policy. On
(27:28):
the one side, you've had the interventionists. They've been people
like John McCain, people like Lindsey Graham, who who are
eager to use US military force, who are frequently advocating
for a robust, robust use of military force. On the
other pole, you have the isolationist and the most notable
(27:49):
of those are Ron Paul and Rand Paul and Tucker Carlson,
I think is now emphatically in that category as well.
And their view is that that that America should withdraw
from the world, that we have two giant oceans on
both sides, and we should not employ the military. As
Tucker said in an earlier clip we played, we should
(28:09):
never kill anybody, which which means our military should never
engage with our enemies. I've always considered, and most people
look at that and say, Okay, you got to be
one or the other. I've always thought both views were wrong.
I disagree with both. I disagree with interventionists, I disagree
with isolationist. I consider myself a third point on the triangle.
(28:30):
I consider myself a non interventionist hawk. Now what does
that mean. It means that I am exceptionally reluctant to
you at use US military force. We should have a
very high threshold for sending our sons and daughters into harms. Way,
we should not engage in unnecessary wars. But and this
is a very important butt, the touchstone for all foreign
(28:53):
policy and military action should be the vital national security
interest of the United States. So I opposed the Iraq War.
The Iraq War under George W. Bush, I think was
a mistake. It ended up making America less safe. We
toppled a dictator, Saddam Hussein, who was killing radical Islamic
(29:13):
terrorist and what happened. The radical Islamic terrorists took over
and they began killing Americans. That was bad. I also
oppose what happened in Libya. Kadafi was another dictator. He
was killing radical Islamic terrorists. We toppled Kadafi and the
radical Islamic terrorists took over and began killing Americans. That
was bad. The touchstone should be does this make America
(29:35):
more safe? Does this protect Americans? And the reason I
believe that President Trump is exactly right to support Israel
in stopping Iran's nuclear weapons capability. Is because Iran with
a nuclear weapon poses a clear threat to the safety
and security of America, a clear threat of murdering a
(29:57):
vast number of Americans. That's why Israel is acting, That's
why President Trump is acting. And I'll point out ben
when I say non interventionist talk, that's a fancy way
of saying what President Reagan referred to as peace through strength.
Be strong enough that your enemies don't want to mess
with you. If you want to avoid war, be strong.
When you're weak, when you're isolationist, you end up with
(30:20):
more war because your enemies are aggressive because they know
you're weak. It is also, I believe exactly what President
Trump's foreign policy is. It's what he has done consistently.
And I agree with President Trump's foreign policy, and I
will say that that's true on Iran, that's true on Israel,
but it's also true on Russia. And I want you
to listen to a back and forth that Tucker and
(30:42):
I had on Russia, because that's another area where clarity
is valuable. And here give a listen.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Don't think that Putin loves us. I'm distressed by the
moral condition of most leaders around the world.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Most of them. They all kill people.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I'm against that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I'm just saying I wish to focus here with more
I say something. I actually don't agree with that statement.
They all kill people. There's a moral relativism. So I
don't think Donald Trump is a murderer. He doesn't kill people.
We don't have customer Donald Trump murderer. And you just
said world leaders all kill people, and there's a moral relativism.
I'm hardly a moral relative, but you are.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
You just that statement was the estimated semi and isolation
moral relatives.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Okay, No, do you just say world leaders all.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Killed saying I'm against killing people in general? So and
hyperventilating about how Putin was in the KGB or whatever.
I just want to serve American interest and pushing him
to China is not in our interest in it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
And you helped it, and you haven't apologized. And by
the way, you're the cheerleader. I helped drive him into China.
It's an empleite lie.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
You funded the war against him.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, I authored the legislation that shut down Nordstream too,
that prevented the war and if Trump had still been
in the White House, we would have had the war.
And look the comment you made, the reason things like
moral relativism are so dangerous. Oh, everyone kills people. No,
there is a difference relative. We don't have concentration camps.
We don't torture and murder people. You look at China
(32:05):
where they've got a million prisoners in concentration camps. You
look at Putin where he's got prisoners in Siberia. He
tortures and murders his political opponents. Donald Trump doesn't do that.
America doesn't do that. And by the way, countries don't
do that. I see the game. It's like you're the rest.
I'm distressed. Now I'm responding with facts. You don't like
the facts. I don't even know what facts you're talking about.
(32:27):
I'm not saying that Trump puts people in concentration camps.
I can't paign for Trump. I love Trump, so did I. Okay,
so this is something with Trump.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
I'm merely saying, you druve some more emphasis on what's
happening inside the country.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
That's it. Is there a moral difference between America and
our enemies in America? And what is it articulated invaluable
to say why.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Wow, And I think that's one of the biggest differences
between you and Tiger Carlson right there in that conversation.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Look, he would not say that Putin was a bad guy.
He would not say that that that President Trump was
right to take out General Solimani. He would not say
that President Trump was right to take out Al Baghdaddy,
the head of ISIS. He would not say that President
Trump was right to take out Isis's caliphe and here,
I want you to listen to this. Additionally, back and
forth we had on Russia. Say, I don't understand for
(33:17):
some reason, you are really invested in defending Russian I
don't get that. I'm not attacking you with that. I'm
genuinely like, I don't get why you're so passionate about
defending Rusger.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I mean, wow, Senator, the laughing at the end by
him just because you were killing him with the facts
really sums up the entire two hour interview.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
In my opinion, it was an odd thing because he
would say things that were just wildly untrue. He'd said,
every world leader kills people, and no, it is not equivalent.
Donald Trump is not equivalent to Vladimir Putin. And that's
frankly something that left to say, and unfortunately isolationists on
the right say it as well, and it's simply not true.
You know, we were having this interview in my office
(34:00):
and the dominant feature in my office is a gigantic
painting of Ronald Reagan in front of the Brandenburg Gate.
And above him in German are the words tear down
this wall in the style of the graffiti. I think
those are the most important words uttered in modern times,
and they call for the importance of American leadership. Now,
as I make clear this interview, I don't want us
(34:22):
to be at war with Russia. We should not be
at war with Russia. But it doesn't mean we need
to be cheerleaders for Russia, that we need to be
cutting essentially infomercials for Russian grocery stores. We ought to
speak the truth and the bully pulpit of the presidency
is incredibly powerful, and I got to say again, President
Trump is doing that beautifully. The entire point of this
interview was for me to make absolutely clear that on Israel,
(34:44):
on Iran, President Trump is right and Tucker Carlson is wrong.
And we stand with Israel and we will keep the
American people safe.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Don't forget we do this show Monday, Wednesday, and Friday,
and make sure that subscriber auto download button wherever you
get your podcasts so you do not miss an episode.
And also tomorrow on Saturday, we'll have the week in review,
some of the top things we talked about this past
week that you may have missed, so make sure you
listen to that as well. And the Senator I will
see you back here Saturday morning.
Welcome. It is Verdict with Center, Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson
with you. It's so nice to have you with us.
Many of you listening to this on radio around the country,
and we are thrilled to have you with us as well.
Don't forget we do this show as a podcast, so
make sure you hit that subscriber auto download button if
you download Vertic with Tech Cruse. We do it three
days a week, and obviously this radio show as well. Senator,
(00:23):
We've got a lot to talk about in the show,
but let's just start with the big thing everybody's wanting
to hear about, and that is your sit down interview
in your office with Tucker Carlson.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, this week I sat down with Tucker Carlson. We
did a two hour interview in my office and I
got to tell you it was a bloodbath. The two
of us frankly beat the living daylights out of each
other for two hours straight. It was there were fireworks,
I'll tell you online there have been over one hundred
million views on clips from this show. It was vigorous,
(00:58):
it was contested, it was look. It laid out two
very different views on foreign policy, and it's what we're
going to talk about today.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, it really is an incredible on the foreign policy front.
So let's just start with the basic question that I
think so many people have been asking me when they
saw the sibbits of this interview, and I would actually
encourage people to watch the entire interview, not just the
little things that popped on social media, but number one
like why did you decide to do this interview with him?
(01:29):
And did do you think it was going to be
like this?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, let me start with the second part first. Yes,
I knew exactly what it was going to be. I
knew that Tucker when he asked for the interview, I
knew that he was doing it to come after me.
I knew he was going to come in and just
be swinging as hard as he could. And I went in.
I wasn't looking to pick a fight, and in fact,
we started the interview with my pointing out. I said, Tucker, listen,
(01:54):
you and I we agree on about eighty percent of issues.
We agree across the board. And I said, Tucker, you
have been fantastic on a ton of issues. You've been
fantastic on securing the border. That is a deep passion
of mine. We have got to secure the border. And
when Joe Biden the Democrats had opened borders, you were
ferocious in fighting for that which I have been fighting
(02:15):
alongside that with all my might. I will say during COVID,
during the COVID lockdowns, Tucker was phenomenal. In fact, to
the middle of the COVID lockdowns. I called Tucker back
when he had a show on Fox, and I told him,
I said, Tucker, your evening monologues are the single best
thing on television. I listened to them. I consume them
(02:36):
like crack every night because they are so good. Because
he was speaking out, he was speaking out powerfully against
the insanity of shutting down our country, against the insanity
of shutting down small businesses, against the insanity of shutting
down churches, against the insanity of shutting down schools. And
over ten million kids did not go to in person
school for over a year. And by the way, the
(02:58):
data all show the learning loss to kids from that
idiotic social experiment is going to be with them their
entire life. I think ten, twenty, thirty, forty years from now,
we're going to look back and say, what idiocy prompted
this country to shut down schools and hurt so many kids.
So on all of those issues, on free speech, on
the Second Amendment, Tucker's been fantastic, and we aren't exactly
(03:20):
the same page on all of those issues. Now, I
did acknowledge there are issues on which we disagree. I
knew that Tucker wanted the interview because he wanted to
come after me, and I knew that it was going
to be particularly spicy, a lot of fireworks, because Tucker
in the last week has gotten really crosswise with President Trump.
(03:42):
Tucker has blasted the President and said that the President
was complicit in Israel's war. He said that the President's
actions were not consistent with America first. And so I
knew that Tucker was going to be hot and that
I was going to be the target to take his
ir out. I did the interview because listen, although Tucker
(04:03):
is right on a whole lot of issues on foreign policy,
I think he's gone really off the rails. He has
gotten to a place of hardcore isolationism that I think
is really dangerous. It's not good for America. I disagree
with it. He does not want America to support Israel.
He does not want America to do anything to stop
Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, and he is vocally
(04:27):
and vigorously disagreeing with President Trump. And I thought it
was important for me to do this interview to explain
what President Trump is doing and to defend the president,
to stand with President Trump. And I got to tell you,
the entire theme of my interview was very simple. Donald
Trump is right, and Tucker on Iran and Israel, you're wrong.
(04:49):
And that was the whole point of the interview that
came across at great length. Now, we did the interview
and on Tuesday, and then Tucker released it on Wednesday.
But before Wednesday, he released a little stippet and in
two hours. Look, I'm gonna give Tucker some credit, he
had a little gotcha moment. So two hours of back
and forth and back and forth and back and forth,
(05:09):
and he decided to play a little gotcha moment. So
so in the course of talking about Iran, he asks me,
he says, well, what's the population of Iran? And I
thought about it for a second and realized I didn't
actually know the exact population of Iran, and so I
just said I don't know, and he did the sort
of classic Tucker, what how can you not know that,
(05:31):
And I mean, he was, you know, vibrating and looking
as if I had, you know, admitted to I don't know,
committing treason or something. And I just said, look, I
don't memorize population tables. And he comes in with with great,
great joy and says and I asked him, I said,
what's the population of Iran? He says ninety two million. Actually,
(05:55):
according to the Google searches afterwards, it's eighty nine million,
so he was off three million, which I think is
funny because I assume he Google searched it right before
the interview so he could do his little gotcha. And
I'll confess this may not be terribly credible, but the
truth of the matter is in my head what I
was going to say, if I was guessing, was ninety million.
So I was actually felt pretty good. I'm like, huh,
(06:15):
all right, pretty damn close. But I said, look, what
difference does it make if it's ninety million or eighty
million or a hundred million. And the reason I didn't
want to positive guess is because stupid and unfair interviews.
You play gotcha's on this and I'll say things like
population numbers. There are all sorts of countries across the
globe that have sort of really surprising populations that they
(06:37):
can have populations that are either significantly bigger than you
would think, are significantly smaller than you would think. And
at the end of the day, what I was talking about,
which is the Iatola, theocratic radical lunatic who chance death
to American is trying to develop a nuclear weapon. The
thread of that is not remotely different whether Iran has
(06:58):
a population of eighty million, ninety million, hundred million. So
it was an irrelevant gotcha. But that little clip, what
Tucker did is he released it a day before the
whole interview, so he picked out of two hours. He
thought that was the best sixty seconds because he did
get me to say the words I don't know, and
he felt very gleeful on that I got to say.
The rest of the interview as it played out, there's
(07:19):
a reason he wanted to start with that clip. And
that clip went viral, and that's fine, but there's a
reason he wanted to start with that clip because the
rest of the interview. Tucker's positions on Israel were very clear.
He didn't want to stand with Israel. He was and
we're going to lay this out in the course of
the show. Deeply opposed to Israel, and he was deeply
(07:40):
opposed to President Trump's policy, and in fact, he had
been in writing and vocally attacking President Trump. And he
didn't want to talk about that in terms of putting
it out the results of the interview. But that's why
I did the interview.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So I've done interviews that have been pretty snarky. I
worked seen in for a long time as a conservative commentator.
Are you glad you did the interview? Because I always
got that question and it's the same one. I know
a lot of people want to ask you.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Absolutely one thousand percent.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Look, could the interview have been much better? If Tucker
had wanted to sit down and have a reasonable, thoughtful conversation,
let me speak, let him speak, us go back and
forth and lay out different visions of foreign policy, that
would have been a much much better interview. But Tucker
didn't want to do that. When he didn't like what
you're saying, he interrupts, he gets snarky, he insults you,
(08:30):
and you're gonna hear all that because that's what he did.
But that's fine, I mean it. He decided he wanted
this interview to be the two of us scream at
each other. So that's what it ended up being. But
I'm very glad because it was important to lay out
the contrast. Donald Trump is right and Tucker Carlson is
wrong on Israel and Iran, and I wanted to make
(08:51):
that absolutely clear.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
One of the big differences between the two of you
was on what success looks like, especially when it comes
to Israel taking out top Iranian military leadership.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, that's exactly right. Israel right now is taking out
the senior Iranian military leadership. And this is a regime.
When the Iotola chants death to America, I believe him.
When he chants death to Israel, I believe him. When
he calls Israel the little Satan in America the great Satan,
I believe that he believes that. And so the Iatola's
(09:24):
efforts to develop nuclear weapons they are designed for one
very specific purpose, which is to be able to attack
Israel and America. And let me point out, by the way,
there is a reason the Iatola has an ICBM program.
ICBM stands for intercontinental ballistic missile. You do not need
an ICBM to attack Israel. Right now, Iran is pounding
(09:48):
Israel with ballistic missiles, but Israel is relatively close to Iran.
Iran wants an ICBM for one purpose and one purpose only,
to be able to carry a nuclear warhead to the
unit the States of America. And so that is the
threat we are facing. And Israel is doing an enormous
favor to America by taking out Iran's nuclear capability. Here,
(10:11):
give a listen to Tucker and me discussing exactly this point.
Do you want to ask how to supporting Israel benefit us?
Right now? This tiny little country the size of the
state of New Jersey is fighting our enemies for US
and taking out their top military leadership and trying to
take out their nuclear capacity. That makes America much safer.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Right, by the way, You're absolutely right. I mean Israel
is taking out top Perhanian military leadership. And yes, Israel
is fighting our enemies right now for US and not
just America, but many other countries around the world.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, and it benefits America. Understand, these nuclear weapons are
being developed so they can attack America. And it's not
American soldiers who are taking out these nuclear facilities. It
is Israeli commandos who are doing so that's something we
should be grateful for. But but Tucker Carlson has been
(11:02):
vigorously criticizing President Trump for standing with Israel on this
and and here's another segment with with with Tucker and
me discussing this point that I.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Willing to spend money opposed to that it's awful. I
am against killing anybody, actually, and especially foreign government. I'm
asking about your allegation in the Prime Minister of Israel's
allegation that.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Is killing Terris is a good thing. Killing people are
trying to murder Americans is a good thing because if
you're America first, you want to protect American So taking
out killing O'samovan Laden was a fantastic But you don't
believe that they're trying to murder Trump or you ain't it? Yes,
but why are you, senator?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
You said earlier in the interview with him at the
beginning and on this show that you and Tucker agree
on about eighty percent of the issues, like hardcore lockstep.
But this one here is maybe the most insane point
where Pucker's like, Hey, I don't want to kill anybody
around the world, no matter what I'm like, hold on,
if you had a chance to take out Hitler, you
wouldn't have done it. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, this is unfortunately a point that frankly, you see
from a lot of people on the far left. You
see from the sort of Jimmy Carter's of the world,
and even Barack Obama's, the kind of piece nicks that say, man,
all war is bad. Just just you know, killing is bad.
I'm just opposed to killing. And I get that that
sounds good in a college faculty lounge. But as I
(12:30):
asked him in the course of it, I'm like, did
you think it's bad that we killed Osama bin Laden?
Do you think it's bad that that that Hitler's dead?
Do you think it's bad that we killed General Solomony?
Do you think it's bad that And let's be clear
that President Trump killed General Solomony. I asked him that
he wouldn't answer, that, he wouldn't ask answer if it
was if it was good or bad that we killed
(12:51):
Osama bin Laden. That the idea that we should never
kill anybody is an incredibly naive and unrealistic position. Look,
I think we should avoid unnecessary wars. I think we
should be very reluctant to put American servicemen and women
in harm's way. But when you have terrorists, killing Osama
bin Laden was a great day for America and a
(13:12):
great day for the world because Osama bin Laden murdered
thousands of Americans and waged war against America. And anyone
who is actually focused on America first and defending this
nation understands that there are dangerous people that are trying
to kill Americans and it's the job of the commander
in chief to keep them safe. Now, I will say,
(13:34):
in a two hour interview, one of the things that
was striking is thirty six minutes of the interview was
Tucker attacking me for supporting Israel, and in particular, he
was obsessed with APAC. APAC is the America Israel Political
(13:55):
Action Committee, and he was going on and on and
on about how APAC should have to register under Farah,
the law that requires that that organizations that are lobbying
on behalf of foreign governments have to register. Now, APAK
is not lobbying on behalf of a foreign government. APAC
consists of Americans. It is Americans who are standing up.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
Now.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
There are Americans who want a strong US Israel relationship,
but they are not a lobbyist for the nation of Israel.
And all told, he asked twenty eight questions on APAC,
twenty eight questions. He asked thirty five questions on why
I was supporting Israel, and finally it led to this moment,
which was quite a bit of fireworks. Here. Give a listen.
(14:39):
By the way, Tucker, it's a very weird thing, the
obsession with Israel, and we're talking about foreign count You're
not talking about Chinese, you're not talking about Japanesi, not
talking about the Brits, you're not talking about the French.
The question what about the Jews? What about the Jews?
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Tey semi?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Now, Senator, you're just in the question, Tucker, you're asking
why are the Jews who controlling our foreign policy?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
That's what you just asked, hardly saying that, and I
have that's exactly what you just said.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It is, by the way, exactly he was saying over
and over again, as you mentioned for so long and again,
the demonization of Americans, and many of them they're Jewish
that advocate for Israel in America and say they should
be foreign lobbyist organization. Look, I've spoken at one of
their events before. I'm sure you've spoken it countless events
for them before. The idea that there's some foreign agency
(15:28):
is absurd yea.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
And he also had a whole line of inquiry, isn't
it horrible that Israel spies on America? My response was,
every one of our allies spies on America. We spy
on every one of our allies. That's real politique, that's
the world we live in. And he could not acknowledge
that point. He said, no, no, but Israel does it.
It's terrible that Israel does it. And it was bizarrely focused. Okay, look,
(15:52):
the Brits spy on us, the Canadian spy on us,
the French spy on us. Everybody spies on us, and
we spy on everybody. Welcome to reality, because conservatives are
not simple and naive. And yet the criticism that is
directed at Israel sadly is unique and I think really unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I want to get back into the Tucker Carlson interview
that you did and center there was some interesting themes
that came out of this interview. He was obviously attacking you,
he was attacking Israel, he was attacking groups that support Israel.
But then there was an even weirder point where I
think Tucker probably is hoping that we don't play this,
(16:31):
or that people didn't watch the whole interview and hear
this part. It was about the Iranian regime. They've been
trying to murder Donald Trump. They've hired hitman, They've been
trying to hire hitman. They've come after former cabinet members
of Donald Trump. And when you brought it up, he
acted like he'd never heard of this before and that
you were either lying or this is shocking news to him.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, this was utterly bizarre, and I got to say,
in the whole course of the two hour interview, this
was the strangest portion. For the last two years, Iran
has been active trying to murder President Donald Trump. Iran
has hired hitman to murder President Trump, and Ran also
has been trying to murder Mike Pompeo, President Trump's former
secretary of State, John Bolton, President Trump's former national security advisor,
(17:15):
and Brian Hook, President Trump's former assistant secretary of state.
All of them, Iran has hired hitman and has been
targeting them bizarrely, and this has been widely reported. These
are objective facts, but bizarrely, Tucker Carlson assisted insisted this
has never happened. Here, give a listen.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
I just want to pull that thread because it's so important.
I voted for Donald Trump. I can't paign for Donald Trump.
He's our president and won in the cusp of a war.
So if Iran, if there's evidence that Iran paid hitman
to kill Donald Trump and is currently doing that, where's that?
What are you even talking? I've never heard that before. Okay,
where's the evidence? Who are these people? Why haven't they
been arrested? Why are we not at war with Iran?
(17:53):
That's a great question to ask. How do you know
that that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
We know that it's true because we have been told
that by the military and our intelligence community for the
last two years. We meaning who Congress has in the public.
I mean it had multiple testimonies. I can send you
test We know the.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Names of the people are where this happened, or what
they tried to do to kill Trump.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
We do not. We have not apprehended an Iranian hit
man trying to kill him. We know that Iran is
trying to do so in the United States. Yes, and
by the way, like Iran, this just seems like a
huge headline and you're acting like everyone knows this. I
didn't know that Iran put out a whole video about
murdering Trump, right, but I've never heard evidence that there
(18:37):
are hitmen in the United States, I mean, trying to
kill Trump right now, we should like have a nationwide
dragged down on this and we should attack Iran immediately
if that's true. Don't you think no, but they're trying
to assassinate our president. They have been for two years.
They are more with them. Well we are trying.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
To Why don't we just knwke teard if they're trying
to murder our president. There's nothing that you could do
that would be worse for the United States than murdering Trump.
And I just don't understand why you're not calling for
the use of nuclear weapons against the ee tootal right now,
I'm serious, if you really believe there's a use of
nuclear weapons, whatever the problem of so mean, you don't
seem to take the allegation seriously.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
I do.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
If you believe they're trying to murder Trump, we need
to stop what we're doing and punish them.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I mean, insanely bizarre. We went from let's not do
anything to Oh, they're trying to kill Trump. Well, if
that's true, let's just nuke them.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
So you're right.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
The entire two hours, Tucker's position was do nothing on Iran,
do nothing on Iran, do nothing on Iran, do not
support Israel, do not support Israel, do not support Israel.
But if Iran is trying to murder Trump, then we
should nuke them. Okay, Ben, that's absolutely wacky. And look,
it's the sign of someone who's not presenting an argument
(19:50):
in good faith. No, we should not be nuking Iran.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
That that's not.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
A good idea. And by the way, this is a
point where actually facts matter. And part of what was
frustrating about this interview is that Tucker just says things
that are blatantly false and he doesn't care if they're
true or false. So this is an objective fact. I'm
going to read to you from a political article on
November eighth, twenty twenty four, not very long ago. Here's
(20:16):
the title. Iran ordered an operative to assassinate Trump before
the election. Federal prosecutors say the alleged would be assassin
is believed to be in Iran and remains at large,
Prosecutors said, here's the beginning of the article. The Iranian
government ordered an operative to assassinate Donald Trump before the
twenty twenty four election, Manhattan Federal prosecutors said Friday, the
latest in a string of assassination plots directed at the
(20:39):
former and future president in recent months. Prosecutors charged Farhad
Shakiri with murder for hire and providing material support to
foreign terrorist organization. He is believed to be in Iran
and remains at large, Prosecutors said. The article continues quote.
According to a criminal complaint unsealed in Manhattan Federal Court,
Kiri said during fb I interview that in September he
(21:02):
was directed by the Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran to
surveil and kill Trump, whom the charging papers identify as
victim for. When Shakiri told an IRGC official that doing
so would prove expensive, the official responded that money's not
an issue, which Shakiri understood to mean that the IRGC
(21:23):
had previously spent a significant sum of money on efforts
to murder victim four and was willing to continue spending
a lot of money in its attempt to procure victims
for assassination. According to the charging papers. So there's literally
a Department of Justice indictments specifically against an assassin for
(21:43):
attempting to murder Trump. There also, by the way, was
a separate assassin who was arrested for renting an apartment
next to John Bolton, an Iranian assassin that was there
to murder Trump's former national security advisor. And as I noted,
the Iranians put out an entire video, a minute and
a half video. It's an animated video that shows Donald
Trump playing golf and shows the Iranians using a drone
(22:07):
attack to kill him. All of that is is objectively true,
and yet Tucker says, I've never heard a word of it.
I don't know anything about this, and I want to.
I want to play this video right here. This is
in Farsi, but but I want to play it, and
then I'm going to tell you what what what he's saying.
So give a listen.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Well, I mean, mckinzio in.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
So let's just be queer. That's the IRGC commander live
on Islamic Republic of Iran state TV and tell people
what he just said.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Well, his name is Amir Ali hadjes Zade. He's the
commander of the IRGC. He's on national television and he says,
quote God willing will be able to kill Trump, Pompeo,
General McKenzie, and other US commanders. That's on TV now.
Tucker spent the entire interview denying that Iran was trying
(23:19):
to kill President Trump. That's objectively false. Facts matter, And bizarrely,
he said, well, if that fact was true, he thought
we should immediately attack Iran and we should nuw Kran. Well, no,
that's not the case. We should not Knukran, but we
should do what President Trump is doing right now, which
is support Israel in taking out Iran's nuclear capability and
their senior military leadership. That actually makes sense. And I'll
(23:42):
tell you that. The day after our interview aired, President
Trump was asked about the conflict between me and Tucker
in the Oval office. And here give a listen to
the back and forth President Trump had in the Oval
with a reporter.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Can you see the Tucker Carlson and Senator Ted Cruz interview.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It seems like this issue on whether or not the
United States strike is kind of dividing a lot of
your supporters.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
No, my supporters are for me. My supporters are America first.
They make America great again. My supporters don't want to
see around have a nuclear weapon. Tucker's a nice guy.
He called apologized the other day because he thought he
said things a little bit too strong, and I appreciated that.
And Ted Cruise is a nice guy. I mean, he's
been with me for a long time. I'd say once
(24:25):
the race was over, he's been with me ever since.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Right, but very simple.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
If they think that it's okay for Iran to have
a nuclear weapon, then they should oppose me. But nobody
thinks it's okay.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
This goes back to the very beginning and why I
think Tucker was so hostile. He wanted a distraction from
the fact that he had messed up with Trump. He
had to call Trump and apologize, and he thought, all right,
if I just go after Ted Cruz, maybe that'll fix
all my problems. I don't think it worked well.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
And look, the reason that that Tucker had to apologize
to Trump is that he had been publicly blasting Trump.
He said Trump was complicit in Israel's war, and he
said he said what Trump was doing was not America first.
And President Trump tweeted out and said, look, I'm the
one who created America first, and I decide what it is.
And allowing Iran to have a nuclear weapon that is
(25:18):
not America first. And that's exactly what President Trump said
in the oval. You know what's amazing. We've laid out
the facts that is undisputed, by the way, out of
one hundred senators, all one hundred degree, that Iran is
trying to murder President Trump, even the looniest, even Bernie Sanders,
even Elizabeth Warren doesn't dispute that Iran is trying to
(25:38):
murder Trump because it's an objective fact. I've laid them out,
those facts out repeatedly. You know, Tucker has not responded
once to that. He has not said, oh I was
wrong on that. He hasn't said, oh well, gosh. I said,
if that was the case, we should attack. I ran
immediately in nuke them, which, by the way, to be clear,
we should not. At the end of the day, facts matter,
and the good news is the Commander in chiefs JO
(26:00):
is to be clear eyed and do what is necessary
to keep America safe. President Trump is doing that. I
spoke to him just a few days ago and I said,
mister President, thank you, thank you for standing with Israel,
thank you for standing up for America. Thank you for
defending our servicemen and women. You noticed Iran has not
attacked our servicemen and women because the President has made
clear the consequences would be massive for doing so. And
(26:23):
President Trump right now is being strong and resolute, and
I'm proud to stand with the President that he is
doing exactly the right thing. He is embodying America first,
and he's keeping this country safe.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And there's one big definition that has been coming up,
and I've seen it a lot, and I've been asked about,
especially since it's interview, and it's the argument, are the
word isolationists or isolationism?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (26:52):
And then your thoughts on it, Senator, so people understand it,
but also what is your foreign policies so people to
understand you're not an isolationist and you're not one of
those it's like, hey, let's go to war everywhere we
can't either.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And this is something we talked
about quite a bit in the in the the interview
with Tucker Carlson, and and when he wasn't screaming at me,
and it wasn't a mud mess. We actually laid out
some really important basic philosophy on foreign policy. Look, historically,
there have been two polls in Republican foreign policy. On
(27:28):
the one side, you've had the interventionists. They've been people
like John McCain, people like Lindsey Graham, who who are
eager to use US military force, who are frequently advocating
for a robust, robust use of military force. On the
other pole, you have the isolationist and the most notable
(27:49):
of those are Ron Paul and Rand Paul and Tucker Carlson,
I think is now emphatically in that category as well.
And their view is that that that America should withdraw
from the world, that we have two giant oceans on
both sides, and we should not employ the military. As
Tucker said in an earlier clip we played, we should
(28:09):
never kill anybody, which which means our military should never
engage with our enemies. I've always considered, and most people
look at that and say, Okay, you got to be
one or the other. I've always thought both views were wrong.
I disagree with both. I disagree with interventionists, I disagree
with isolationist. I consider myself a third point on the triangle.
(28:30):
I consider myself a non interventionist hawk. Now what does
that mean. It means that I am exceptionally reluctant to
you at use US military force. We should have a
very high threshold for sending our sons and daughters into harms. Way,
we should not engage in unnecessary wars. But and this
is a very important butt, the touchstone for all foreign
(28:53):
policy and military action should be the vital national security
interest of the United States. So I opposed the Iraq War.
The Iraq War under George W. Bush, I think was
a mistake. It ended up making America less safe. We
toppled a dictator, Saddam Hussein, who was killing radical Islamic
(29:13):
terrorist and what happened. The radical Islamic terrorists took over
and they began killing Americans. That was bad. I also
oppose what happened in Libya. Kadafi was another dictator. He
was killing radical Islamic terrorists. We toppled Kadafi and the
radical Islamic terrorists took over and began killing Americans. That
was bad. The touchstone should be does this make America
(29:35):
more safe? Does this protect Americans? And the reason I
believe that President Trump is exactly right to support Israel
in stopping Iran's nuclear weapons capability. Is because Iran with
a nuclear weapon poses a clear threat to the safety
and security of America, a clear threat of murdering a
(29:57):
vast number of Americans. That's why Israel is acting, That's
why President Trump is acting. And I'll point out ben
when I say non interventionist talk, that's a fancy way
of saying what President Reagan referred to as peace through strength.
Be strong enough that your enemies don't want to mess
with you. If you want to avoid war, be strong.
When you're weak, when you're isolationist, you end up with
(30:20):
more war because your enemies are aggressive because they know
you're weak. It is also, I believe exactly what President
Trump's foreign policy is. It's what he has done consistently.
And I agree with President Trump's foreign policy, and I
will say that that's true on Iran, that's true on Israel,
but it's also true on Russia. And I want you
to listen to a back and forth that Tucker and
(30:42):
I had on Russia, because that's another area where clarity
is valuable. And here give a listen.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Don't think that Putin loves us. I'm distressed by the
moral condition of most leaders around the world.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Most of them. They all kill people.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I'm against that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I'm just saying I wish to focus here with more
I say something. I actually don't agree with that statement.
They all kill people. There's a moral relativism. So I
don't think Donald Trump is a murderer. He doesn't kill people.
We don't have customer Donald Trump murderer. And you just
said world leaders all kill people, and there's a moral relativism.
I'm hardly a moral relative, but you are.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
You just that statement was the estimated semi and isolation
moral relatives.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Okay, No, do you just say world leaders all.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Killed saying I'm against killing people in general? So and
hyperventilating about how Putin was in the KGB or whatever.
I just want to serve American interest and pushing him
to China is not in our interest in it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
And you helped it, and you haven't apologized. And by
the way, you're the cheerleader. I helped drive him into China.
It's an empleite lie.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
You funded the war against him.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, I authored the legislation that shut down Nordstream too,
that prevented the war and if Trump had still been
in the White House, we would have had the war.
And look the comment you made, the reason things like
moral relativism are so dangerous. Oh, everyone kills people. No,
there is a difference relative. We don't have concentration camps.
We don't torture and murder people. You look at China
(32:05):
where they've got a million prisoners in concentration camps. You
look at Putin where he's got prisoners in Siberia. He
tortures and murders his political opponents. Donald Trump doesn't do that.
America doesn't do that. And by the way, countries don't
do that. I see the game. It's like you're the rest.
I'm distressed. Now I'm responding with facts. You don't like
the facts. I don't even know what facts you're talking about.
(32:27):
I'm not saying that Trump puts people in concentration camps.
I can't paign for Trump. I love Trump, so did I. Okay,
so this is something with Trump.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
I'm merely saying, you druve some more emphasis on what's
happening inside the country.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
That's it. Is there a moral difference between America and
our enemies in America? And what is it articulated invaluable
to say why.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Wow, And I think that's one of the biggest differences
between you and Tiger Carlson right there in that conversation.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Look, he would not say that Putin was a bad guy.
He would not say that that that President Trump was
right to take out General Solimani. He would not say
that President Trump was right to take out Al Baghdaddy,
the head of ISIS. He would not say that President
Trump was right to take out Isis's caliphe and here,
I want you to listen to this. Additionally, back and
forth we had on Russia. Say, I don't understand for
(33:17):
some reason, you are really invested in defending Russian I
don't get that. I'm not attacking you with that. I'm
genuinely like, I don't get why you're so passionate about
defending Rusger.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I mean, wow, Senator, the laughing at the end by
him just because you were killing him with the facts
really sums up the entire two hour interview.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
In my opinion, it was an odd thing because he
would say things that were just wildly untrue. He'd said,
every world leader kills people, and no, it is not equivalent.
Donald Trump is not equivalent to Vladimir Putin. And that's
frankly something that left to say, and unfortunately isolationists on
the right say it as well, and it's simply not true.
You know, we were having this interview in my office
(34:00):
and the dominant feature in my office is a gigantic
painting of Ronald Reagan in front of the Brandenburg Gate.
And above him in German are the words tear down
this wall in the style of the graffiti. I think
those are the most important words uttered in modern times,
and they call for the importance of American leadership. Now,
as I make clear this interview, I don't want us
(34:22):
to be at war with Russia. We should not be
at war with Russia. But it doesn't mean we need
to be cheerleaders for Russia, that we need to be
cutting essentially infomercials for Russian grocery stores. We ought to
speak the truth and the bully pulpit of the presidency
is incredibly powerful, and I got to say again, President
Trump is doing that beautifully. The entire point of this
interview was for me to make absolutely clear that on Israel,
(34:44):
on Iran, President Trump is right and Tucker Carlson is wrong.
And we stand with Israel and we will keep the
American people safe.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Don't forget we do this show Monday, Wednesday, and Friday,
and make sure that subscriber auto download button wherever you
get your podcasts so you do not miss an episode.
And also tomorrow on Saturday, we'll have the week in review,
some of the top things we talked about this past
week that you may have missed, so make sure you
listen to that as well. And the Senator I will
see you back here Saturday morning.
Host
Ben Ferguson
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