1. El Salvador’s CECOT Mega-Prison for Gang Members
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Senator Cruz describes his recent visit to El Salvador, where he toured the CECOT (Centro de Confinamiento del Terrorismo) prison.
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The prison was built to house up to 40,000 of the country’s most dangerous gang members (MS-13, Barrio 18).
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Conditions:
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Cells hold 100 prisoners each, with bunk beds stacked four levels high.
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Prisoners are locked in cells 23 hours a day, with 1 hour allowed for exercise and religious instruction (both mandatory).
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No cellphones—blocked with jammers, with heavy fines for carriers if a call gets through.
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Monitored constantly by guards with machine guns and 24/7 lighting.
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Cruz compares it to U.S. prisons, noting it is much harsher and more controlled. He highlights the dramatic drop in El Salvador’s homicide rate (down ~98%), attributing it to President Bukele’s crackdown and mass incarceration of gang members.
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He even interviews an MS-13 member from Texas who admitted to murder in El Salvador and hinted at crimes in the U.S. The inmate expressed regret about his son possibly joining a gang but acknowledged that El Salvador’s new security situation made that less likely.
2. Panama Canal and Chinese Influence
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Cruz also traveled to Panama, where he toured the Panama Canal and met with government officials.
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He emphasizes Panama’s strategic importance to U.S. national security and commerce.
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Concerns raised:
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Chinese companies control key infrastructure near the canal, including ports, a bridge under construction, and a metro tunnel project.
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Cruz warns this could give China leverage to disrupt U.S. military and commercial shipping if conflict arises (e.g., over Taiwan).
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He pressed Panamanian officials to remove Chinese control and noted ongoing negotiations to transfer two Chinese-run ports to a U.S. consortium.
-
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He frames this as a matter of U.S.–Panama shared interest: Panama also risks economic and security harm if China can choke canal operations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome in is verdical Senator Ted Cruz ben Ferguson with you.
It's truly nice to have you with us wherever you
are around the country. We have got a lot to
chat about on today's show. As you, Centator, have been
on a codell in Latin America.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, that's exactly right. I left several days ago, spent
two days in El Salvador and then went to Panama
and went and toured the Panama Canal and l Salvador.
I sat down with the president of El Salvador, President Bukelly,
had a one on one meeting with him. The results
he has produced are extraordinary. We talked about that on
(00:38):
Wednesday's podcast. How El Salvador went from having the highest
murder rate on planet Earth of one hundred murders per
one hundred thousand people, to the murder rate plummeting ninety
eight percent. Last year, the murder rate was one point
(01:00):
nine murders per one hundred thousand people, making it one
of the safest countries on Earth, and indeed significantly safer
than the United States. That result is extraordinary. And what
I did this week is I actually toured the Sea
Coot Prison, the prison where El Salvador is putting MS.
Thirteen and BRO eighteen gang members. It was astonishing. I'm
(01:24):
going to bring you inside that prison. I'm going to
tell you exactly what I saw. I also spent a
day and a half in Panama meeting with senior government
officials in Panama and went and toured the Panama Canal,
saw firsthand how the Panama Canal operates, and saw one
of the two Chinese ports that is right at the
Pacific mouth of the Panama Canal. I'm going to tell
(01:47):
you what I saw on the ground and what the
real threat is to American national security and American commerce
from China having a decisive position on the Panama Canal
that we're going to bring inside.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, it's really incredible.
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(04:14):
All right, So center, let's start with a big part
of your trip. You mentioned in a moment ago. You
actually went in and saw the prison that everybody's been
talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, I did. The steacut prison El Salvador, built to
house the very worst gang members. It's a maximum security prison.
It has the capacity of forty thousand prisoners, and they
built it with that capacity because that was their estimate
of the gang members that they were looking at that
they wanted to incapacitate. I drove from the capital city
(04:46):
since Salvador, it is forty five minutes to an hour
to get to the prison. I drove to the prison.
One of the things that is striking as you're pulling
up to the prison that they instruct you turn your
cell phone on, put it on airplane mode. And the
reason is there are no cell phones and in fact,
they have jammers in the prison, and so unlike most prisons,
(05:07):
if not every prison on the planet where prisoners frequently
smuggle in cell phones, often with the complicity of prison guards,
at the Seacut prison, there are no cell phones. The
cell phones are jammed, and in fact, what the El
Salvador's government has done is imposed massive fines on the
(05:31):
cell phone companies. Even a single call goes through from
the prison, and so the cell phone companies to avoid
and the fines. If I remember correctly what the Justice
minister said to me, it is one hundred thousand dollars
per violation, so it can rack up very very quickly.
(05:51):
Ten calls is a million bucks, which means the cell
phone companies don't want a single call coming out of
that prison, and as a result, the prison is totally
locked down.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So you're hear something like that by the way, and
you sit there and you're like, wait, why aren't we
doing that here?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Right?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Like, why aren't we doing things like this to make
prison not like an easy place and to make sure
that exactly just mentioned this stuff doesn't happen in America's
I love when you hear other ideas from other countries
like this.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, I have to admit I thought about the cell
phone blockers, and I've been supportive of legislation to increase
the punishment for having a cell phone in US prisons
because you end up having gangs and drugs, and many
of the worst criminals in America are operating out of
prisons and are inflicting enormous violence on civilian populations outside
(06:43):
of prison. And so that's certainly a lesson I think
we can learn in terms of how to be more
effective shutting off the means of communication.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So you go from there, you see this, and then
where what happens next?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
All right, So you drive up to, first of all,
a massive steel gate and concrete walls, concrete walls that
go up i'd say about thirty feet, and then on
top of the concrete walls is barbed wire, and then
on top of the barbed wire is electrified wire, so
(07:18):
it's an imposing front entrance that you come to it.
You then go through these giant steel doors. You go
through a second set of giant steel doors you go in.
It's very much at this prison like an airlock where
you go in. We were in a bus and we
got out of the bus and we went in where
they require every prison guard every day to go through
(07:42):
and they go through a metal detector. It's very much
like going into an airport where you go through a
metal detector. You scan any bag you have with you,
and then they have a scanner, an X ray machine
designed to find things that are even within body cavities,
if you've ingested anything. I mean it is it was
(08:03):
impressive technology that every guard is required to go through
every day when they walk in. I will say, they
didn't make me go through those skins, So I guess
that there are some benefits to being part of the
United States government. I was there with the Justice Minister
who was giving me the tour himself, so I guess
they were not terribly worried about my having swallowed balloons
(08:23):
with heroin in them, or having a shank and sealed somewhere.
I had neither, but I was glad that they did
not check. So I went into the main prison and
you drive and you have a whole series that there's
a gate, there's another gate, and there's another gate, and
there are walls. It's a little bit like the opening
of Get Smart, where you go through gate after gate
after gate. Yeah, it's a whole series of walls and
(08:47):
barbed wire, and I mean it's it's imposing. I mean
it is not. It is designed so there ain't nobody
getting out. And I asked them if they had anyone escape.
They they've never had anyone to escape. I believe them,
and I believe them because what I saw then, I've
never seen anything like this. So they have eight units
(09:08):
that are built. Each of the units is designed to
house five thousand prisoners. That's why the capacity is forty
thousand prisoners. They are at about fifty percent capacity right now.
They're just under twenty thousand prisoners that are there right now.
So I went into one of the eight units. In
that unit, they have a series of massive cells. Each
(09:30):
of the cells holds one hundred prisoners. Now, the cells
that hold one hundred prisoners, they have four sets of
long bunk beds that go up four levels high. So
these cells are I don't know, probably thirty feet up
in the air. I mean they're in terms of height,
(09:52):
they're high cells, and they have these bunk beds. The
bunk beds are made out of stainless steel. So the prisoners.
You walk and you see a hundred prisoners sitting on
these bunk beds, and these bunk beds are stainless steel.
They're no sheets, they're no blankets, they're no pillows. It
is one hundred prisoners. They're dressed in white. They're dressed
(10:15):
in white kind of loose fitting shirt shorts and T shirts,
and they are sitting there on these bunk beds four
levels up. So the fourth level up is I don't know,
it's probably it's north of twenty feet up. I mean
you have to climb up a ladder to get on it.
And so you just see one hundred prisoners and you
(10:36):
have to envision almost all of these. So they're all adults.
This prison does not have any juveniles. No one under
eighteen is there, and there are no women there. So
these are all men, and they're overwhelmingly young men. I
would say they're overwhelmingly eighteen to thirty five, and they're
all gang members. And there's no subtlety about this. In
(10:59):
fact that at one point in one of the cells
they had the prisoners come forward. They instructed them remove
their T shirts and you could see them remove their
T shirts and all of them had gang tattoos on them.
And it wasn't subtle. It was a giant MS thirteen
like across their chest. I mean, it is not.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Right and presses.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
They're not trying to hide it.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
It was that there was no ambiguity. And the prisoners
twenty three hours a day they're in those cells, and
in front of the cells are prison guards, and the
prison guards are standing there holding machine guns watching them
(11:44):
through the front of the bars above the prison cell
is there's a whole level above the prison cell and
and it's basically bars on top as well, and so
their prison guards on top of the prison cell looking
down on them. So unlike you know, you and I
(12:05):
have both seen a lot of prison movies where people
are off in dark corners and doing things in their
cells where they can't be seen. Sure, these prisoners are
being monitored constantly. The lights are on twenty four hours
a day. They do not turn the lights off, and
they have prison guards with machine guns watching them twenty
(12:26):
four hours a day. They allow the prisoners out of
their cells for an hour a day, and they allow
them in small groups of about twenty, so it's not
very many. And the small groups come out and they
do thirty minutes of calisthenics, and the calisthenics are led
by a prison employee, and it's so they don't have
(12:47):
weight equipment or anything else, but they're doing kind of
stretches and jumping jacks and various calisthenics. And then they
have thirty minutes of religious instruction. And I asked, I said, okay,
are those optional mandatory? They said no, they're mandatory. Uh.
And so that other than that one hour, the remaining
(13:07):
twenty three hours a day there in that cell. I
will tell you. I asked the justice minister, I asked
the head of the prison. It was also with me
in giving you the tour. I said, you know, I asked,
how much violence do you have? The answer was essentially
none that and you could see it. I mean, given the.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Prison, why is the consequences?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Explain the logic behind the reason why there's virtually none.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Look, I don't know. I'm just telling you what they
told me. I asked. I asked about prison rape. Look on, tragically,
in virtually every prison on Earth, rape is a significant risk.
It happens with with far too common frequency. They they
said it it didn't happen there, that they did not
(13:57):
deal with with prison rape. And I don't know that
I entirely believe that, but I got to say I
mostly believe that because prison rate normally occurs where you
have prisoners that are out of view of anyone and
able to be somewhere where someone can be the victim
of sexual assault. In this instance, when you have prison
(14:18):
guards with machine guns watching you at every moment, there's
not a lot of capacity to engage in an active violence.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I want to go back to what you were talking about,
the conditions there and also the rules and how they're
running their prisons down there in a way that I'm
kind of jealous that we're not doing it here.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, you mentioned that it is designed to make life unpleasant,
and I will say, look, it's clearly designed in capacity,
and it's doing that incredibly effectively. They've taken the murderers
off the streets, but it is also designed. Listen. I've
been to prisons before in Texas. I've been to the
(15:00):
prison in Huntsville. I've been a death row on Huntsville.
When I was the Solicitor General of Texas, there were
multiple legal challenges to the method of capital punishment in
Texas and I was defending that. I was defending that
in federal court. So I felt an obligation that I
needed to go and personally observe an execution. That I
couldn't do my job effectively and litigate defending the method
(15:25):
that Texas used for capital punishment unless I observed it myself.
So I went there. I was behind the scenes and
saw how capital punishment was executed. And I will tell you, look,
being in a Texas prison is no walk in a park,
to put it mildly, but it pales in comparison to
(15:45):
what I observed there. I have to say, I cannot
imagine life. It is hell on earth. It is you
are locked up every minute of the day. Now, you're
not subjective, assuming the reports from the head of the
prison is accurate, you're not subjected to violence and threat
(16:06):
and by the way, one of the things they do
so Previously, prisons had separated each gang, so they've sent
MS thirteen to one and eighteenth Street barrioed another. In
this instance, they don't do that. In fact, they mix
gang members, multiple gang members in the same cell. And
part of the reason for that is they said, look,
(16:27):
if you put all the MS thirteen gang members in
one prison, they end up operating the gang out of
there and it becomes a safe haven. And in this case,
and by the way, these gangs they're not just sort
of rivals. It's not like you know, the Yankees and
the Mets. I mean they are each other y. Yeah,
like if they see each other in the streets, they
opened fire and they're suddenly locked together in a cell.
(16:51):
So the hundred prisoners in a cell and I saw
like lined up, you would seem the main ones were
MS thirteen and eighteenth Street Barrio and you would see
the tax and they're all together, and they had to
learn them like they're going to be locked up in
the same cage together for a long time. I saw
several prisoners. I'm going to tell you in a minute
(17:11):
about an extended conversation I had with an MS thirteen
gang member, which was chilling, but I will say I
saw several several prisoners. There was one they showed me
that had a prison sentence of over a thousand years wow.
So he had been convicted of over six homicides, at
at least six. And one of the things that Justice
(17:34):
Minister said to me about MS thirteen, he said, in
the United States, to become an MS thirteen member, you
have to murder someone. That is the process of admission.
You cannot be admitted to the gang if you don't
kill somebody. What the Justice Minister told me is an
El Salvador to be a member of the gang, you
(17:56):
had to commit ten murders. So one of the things
he described to me, he said, listen, these people are
serial killers. They are mass murderers. And the reason the
crime rate plummeted is because they took all the mass
murderers off the street. They took the gang members and
and and gang activity is essentially nonexistent. And so like
(18:19):
I like, I had dinner in down downtown at Saints
albat Or, a very nice restaurant, a state restaurant there,
and the folks I was having dinner with it was
a cabinet member. I was having dinner with and and
and she said, look, it used to be a few
years ago, nobody would come here at night because you
would be robbed, you would be kidnapped, you'd be murdered.
(18:40):
And I'll tell you when I came to downtown, downtown
was beautiful that there were families, there were kids playing
like like it was transformation. And and this prison and
this zero tolerance they went after and they arrested, they
put in jail all the gang members and they said,
if you join the gang, it is a terror rist organization.
(19:01):
To join the gang, you are a murderer and we
are taking you off the street. And the success of
it is incredible. But they gave me an opportunity to
visit with an MS thirteen gang member who's from Texas.
And so they pulled him aside because he was from Texas,
and they said, you may, you may want to talk
with him, and so I did. I talked with him
(19:24):
for quite a bit of time. He was in his
early forties, he had lived much of his life in
the United States. We had perfect English, and he had
lived in Dallas for many years as an MS thirteen
gang member. And he described how he had grown up
in Virginia, and he'd lived in Virginia and Maryland and
(19:48):
DC and he said that then he became an MS
thirteen gang member when he was thirteen years old in
Falls Church, Virginia, and he described it. I said, well, how
did you come to be at this prison and he said, well,
I was deported so he was illegally in the United States.
He said, I was deported. I was sent back to
El Salvador. And he said, I committed a homicide here.
(20:10):
I was convicted of homicide. So he murdered someone in
Al Salvador, at least one person, and he admitted to it.
He was not hiding it. He's like, yeah, I committed
a homicide and that's why I'm here. And I said, well,
did you commit crimes in the United States? He said yes,
yes I did. And I said, well, what crimes did
you commit? Did you commit murder in the United States?
(20:32):
And he wouldn't answer, and it was clear, look, he
hadn't been convicted of murder in the United States, but
he said I, well, I committed crimes, but he didn't
want to answer the specific question. And it was interesting.
The Justice Minister was standing there with me and he
chimed in and he pressed again. He said, look, did
you commit homicide in the United States? Tell us? And
(20:52):
in his response, he said, well, you know how you
become a member of MS thirteen, So he did.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, that's about as honest some answers you're gonna get right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, yeah, he said he became a member when he
was thirteen, and the way you become a member is
your murder soon And he'd been in Virginia at extended time.
He'd been in Dallas as a gang member, so I
don't know. He may have murdered Texans. He did not,
He did not detail, and he was covered in tats,
and you know, he was a and I talked to
(21:25):
him and he had a forty years sentence, so he
will get out in his eighties. Wow. And I was
asking about that. And he has a family. He has
a wife and he has two kids. He has a daughter,
and he has a thirteen year old son that they're
(21:45):
all in Nolsalvador. And I asked him, I said, okay,
your son is thirteen, he's the same age you were
when you joined him as thirteen. I asked, do you
want him to join the gang? And he looked at
me horrified. He said no, no, And he had a comment.
It was a weird comment where he said, look, my
(22:06):
son is living here now and it's safe and he
doesn't have to join a gang. And it was this
is someone whose entire life is going to be in
a cage in a hole. And by the way, he said,
I'll never see my wife again, I will never see
my children again. But like, there's no visitation, there's no
he is locked in a cage with ninety nine other
(22:27):
gang members for the rest of his life. Wow, and
there look, there was a despair. And I asked him,
I said, look, you became you joined the gang at thirteen.
Why did you join the gang? He said, look, all
my friends were everyone I knew was that was the
world I was in that you joined the gang. You
join the gang, you survive. And I asked him, I said, well,
(22:49):
if you wanted to, could you quit. Let's say you
were fifteen or sixteen or seventeen. You said, all right,
I'm done. He said no, there's no way to quit.
He said, you had two options, kill or die. That's
what life was as a gang member. And I have
to say, listen, this is someone who I assume has
committed multiple murders. He admitted to at least two wan
(23:09):
or Nel Salvador, and at least one in the United States,
and it may have been many more. And so I'm
very glad he's incarcerated and not murdering people anymore. But
I will say, you know, I mean I felt a sadness.
This is a human being whose entire life is just
a waste and it and the sentiment he expressed, I mean,
(23:35):
he really did express joys the wrong word for it,
but I'd say gratitude that his thirteen year old son
does not have to live in a world. And he
had basically said, look, Al Salvador is much safer that
it's ever been. I mean, he was almost saying it's
a good thing he's in prison. He didn't quite say that,
(23:57):
but when he was talking about his son, that's basically
what he was saying. And that I got to say, Look,
in US prisons, they'll they'll let you read books, they'll
let you watch TV, they'll let you lift weights, they'll
let you play basketball, they'll let you play sports, you socialize,
and there's there may be some virtue to that, but
(24:20):
I got to say, any gang members, gang activity has
disappeared Nel Salvador. If you knew what life was like
for these guys, there's no way on Earth you'd be
willing to join a gang because their life is effectively over.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
What are the other parts of your trip involved? Going
to the Panama Canal and seeing some different things, including
a lot that deals with China. Now it's been a
big concern talk about that.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah. So I've spent a day and a half in Panama.
I flew from El Salvador to Panama and met with
with with multiple cabinet members, the Finance Minister, the Defense Minister,
the Public Safety minister, uh and the head of the
Panama Canal and and and I will say, remember one,
(25:09):
Panama is a beautiful country. Uh it is. It is
a gorgeous place. And and the people of Panama have
a deep affinity for America. I was struck by that.
You know that they repeatedly, the government officials, the Panamanians
that I visited with, there's a long history at a close,
(25:30):
close affinity for the United States. The Panama Canal is amazing.
So I went out on a boat and went to
the outer parts of the Panama Canal, and then I
went to one of the locks, and I saw I
saw one of the Panamas, like the super tankers coming through,
(25:50):
and and then also saw a little sailboat coming through,
and then a kind of medium sized container ship coming through.
It is amazing, it is like, it is very cool.
Number one, just how the Panama Canal operates. Like you
see the Panamax, the supertanker. The container ship is the
(26:12):
largest size possible to fit through the Panama Canal, and
it's built for that size. I mean, it is literally
this massive ship that is going through these locks. And
these locks have concrete on the side, and it's built
so the sides of the ship are within two feet
of the concrete walls on both sides, Like it's that big.
(26:33):
And what happens. So we were on the Pacific end
of the canal and a ship comes in and each
of the locks has to lower the ship twenty seven feet,
so it comes in into the locks. And it's interesting
for the big tanker that connect steel cables to the
tanker and they have locomotives on both sides to help
(26:54):
keep the ship right in the center. You've got only
two feet of clearance on both sides, so it'd be
really easy for it to small into the side of
the canal and it is in the lock, and then
it takes about eight to ten minutes for the water
to drain and for it to lower twenty seven feet,
and it's lowering twenty seven feet, and it goes to
(27:14):
the next lot and it lowers another I believe it's
twenty seven feet. All told, it's about eight I think
it's eighty one feet. That it has to rise to
get to the height of the lake in the interior,
and then it has to lower it to get to
the Atlantic Ocean of the Pacific Ocean, and both the
Atlantic and Pacific are about the same distance. To lower
(27:35):
the water twenty seven feet takes eight to ten minutes,
and so the water goes down and then the giant
gates open. It was amazing to watch the technology. I
saw the old control room. I saw the control room
where the lock is being operated, the old control room.
So the Panama Canal was built in nineteen fourteen. The
United States built it, and we lost thousands and thousands
(27:59):
of lots I was building it. It's an incredible engineering marvel.
So the old control room had these brass ge equipment.
You saw the old g General Electric and Electric that
they built one of the first early computers to help
operate the locks. It's amazing now now it's all computerized
(28:22):
in high tech. So the old brass controls of each
lock that gives you the water height. And it was
literally it almost looked like something Captain Nemo would have
in terms of the nineteen fourteen levers and switches to
operate the canal that's still preserved there. When I went
out on the boat, one of the things I saw
(28:43):
ben is right at the entrance, the Pacific entrance of
the canal, there is a gigantic port that is owned
and controlled by Communist China, and it's right there, and
they have cranes. They're right there in a position. There
is also China is building a bridge, a bridge across
(29:06):
the canal. It is a bridge for cars. They were
awarded the contract to build the bridge. China is also
there's a Chinese company that is digging a tunnel under
the canal for a metro trade. And so I saw,
I saw where the metro was going to go. I
saw the bridge being built, and it's all right there
(29:27):
at the mouth of the canal. And I went the
purpose of my visit was to meet with the Panamanian
government and say, look, China cannot have control of this canal.
It is too important to the United States, to our
national security, to our economic security. As you know, I'm
the chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee. The Commerce Committee
(29:49):
has jurisdiction over the Panama Canal, and so earlier this
year I chaired a hearing on the Panama Canal in
the Commerce Committee and we laid out the concerns, in
particular the concerns of China. And when I laid out
to the Panamanian officials, I said, look, if God forbid,
(30:10):
we find ourselves in a military conflict with China. Let's
say next year China invades Taiwan and President she has
repeatedly said he wants to invade Taiwan. If he does so,
there's a very real possibility that escalates into a military
conflict with the United States. If China is in an
(30:31):
active military conflict with the United States, I think the
risk is unacceptable that China would try to shut down
the Panama Canal because if they shut down the Panama Canal,
it massively delays our ability to move military ships from
the Atlantic to the Pacific to engage with the Chinese
(30:53):
in Taiwan because it forces our military ships instead to
go around the southern tip of South America rather than
through the canal. And so if you're president, she look,
you wouldn't do it at the time of peace. But
if they're at war, it becomes a really compelling situation
(31:13):
to say, let's impose massive economic harm on the United
States and we get enormous benefits. They're billions of dollars
of revenue that comes from shipping. Shipping, whether it is
is oil and gas through the Panama Canal or goods
and containers, and shutting down the Panama Canal would be
a real blow to the United States economy. But it
(31:36):
would also be a real blow to our military because
it would limit our ability to move naval ships from
the Atlantic to Pacific. It would massively delay moving that
those ships. And so what I'm pressing Panama, I will
say when I shared the hearing on the Panama Canal,
within a week they announced the deal to sell those
(31:59):
two do Chinese ports to an American business consortium. That
deal has not gone through yet. The Chinese are slow
walking in and part of the purpose of my trip
was to press the Panamanian government and say, look, you
need to get the Chinese the hell out of here.
Do not leave them in a position where they can
shut down this canal, because shutting down this canal would
(32:22):
be an enormous economic and national security blow to the
United States, but it would also be an enormous blow
to Panama. And so part of the case I was
making them is their interests and our interest are aligned.
They don't want China to be in a position to
shut down the canal.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Yeah, great point.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
We're going to continue talking about this issue, I can
promise you on our podcast, So make sure you download
Vertic with Ted Cruz wherever you get your podcasts. We
do the show as a podcast three days a week,
so grab it. You can tell Siria Alexa, hey play
Vertic with Ted Cruise. That will happen as well, and
we hope that you'll join us again next weekend here
wherever you're listening to show, on whatever station you're listening to,
(33:01):
and then senday and I will see you
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Back here on our podcasts all week long.
Welcome in is verdical Senator Ted Cruz ben Ferguson with you.
It's truly nice to have you with us wherever you
are around the country. We have got a lot to
chat about on today's show. As you, Centator, have been
on a codell in Latin America.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, that's exactly right. I left several days ago, spent
two days in El Salvador and then went to Panama
and went and toured the Panama Canal and l Salvador.
I sat down with the president of El Salvador, President Bukelly,
had a one on one meeting with him. The results
he has produced are extraordinary. We talked about that on
(00:38):
Wednesday's podcast. How El Salvador went from having the highest
murder rate on planet Earth of one hundred murders per
one hundred thousand people, to the murder rate plummeting ninety
eight percent. Last year, the murder rate was one point
(01:00):
nine murders per one hundred thousand people, making it one
of the safest countries on Earth, and indeed significantly safer
than the United States. That result is extraordinary. And what
I did this week is I actually toured the Sea
Coot Prison, the prison where El Salvador is putting MS.
Thirteen and BRO eighteen gang members. It was astonishing. I'm
(01:24):
going to bring you inside that prison. I'm going to
tell you exactly what I saw. I also spent a
day and a half in Panama meeting with senior government
officials in Panama and went and toured the Panama Canal,
saw firsthand how the Panama Canal operates, and saw one
of the two Chinese ports that is right at the
Pacific mouth of the Panama Canal. I'm going to tell
(01:47):
you what I saw on the ground and what the
real threat is to American national security and American commerce
from China having a decisive position on the Panama Canal
that we're going to bring inside.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, it's really incredible.
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(04:14):
All right, So center, let's start with a big part
of your trip. You mentioned in a moment ago. You
actually went in and saw the prison that everybody's been
talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, I did. The steacut prison El Salvador, built to
house the very worst gang members. It's a maximum security prison.
It has the capacity of forty thousand prisoners, and they
built it with that capacity because that was their estimate
of the gang members that they were looking at that
they wanted to incapacitate. I drove from the capital city
(04:46):
since Salvador, it is forty five minutes to an hour
to get to the prison. I drove to the prison.
One of the things that is striking as you're pulling
up to the prison that they instruct you turn your
cell phone on, put it on airplane mode. And the
reason is there are no cell phones and in fact,
they have jammers in the prison, and so unlike most prisons,
(05:07):
if not every prison on the planet where prisoners frequently
smuggle in cell phones, often with the complicity of prison guards,
at the Seacut prison, there are no cell phones. The
cell phones are jammed, and in fact, what the El
Salvador's government has done is imposed massive fines on the
(05:31):
cell phone companies. Even a single call goes through from
the prison, and so the cell phone companies to avoid
and the fines. If I remember correctly what the Justice
minister said to me, it is one hundred thousand dollars
per violation, so it can rack up very very quickly.
(05:51):
Ten calls is a million bucks, which means the cell
phone companies don't want a single call coming out of
that prison, and as a result, the prison is totally
locked down.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So you're hear something like that by the way, and
you sit there and you're like, wait, why aren't we
doing that here?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Right?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Like, why aren't we doing things like this to make
prison not like an easy place and to make sure
that exactly just mentioned this stuff doesn't happen in America's
I love when you hear other ideas from other countries
like this.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, I have to admit I thought about the cell
phone blockers, and I've been supportive of legislation to increase
the punishment for having a cell phone in US prisons
because you end up having gangs and drugs, and many
of the worst criminals in America are operating out of
prisons and are inflicting enormous violence on civilian populations outside
(06:43):
of prison. And so that's certainly a lesson I think
we can learn in terms of how to be more
effective shutting off the means of communication.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So you go from there, you see this, and then
where what happens next?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
All right, So you drive up to, first of all,
a massive steel gate and concrete walls, concrete walls that
go up i'd say about thirty feet, and then on
top of the concrete walls is barbed wire, and then
on top of the barbed wire is electrified wire, so
(07:18):
it's an imposing front entrance that you come to it.
You then go through these giant steel doors. You go
through a second set of giant steel doors you go in.
It's very much at this prison like an airlock where
you go in. We were in a bus and we
got out of the bus and we went in where
they require every prison guard every day to go through
(07:42):
and they go through a metal detector. It's very much
like going into an airport where you go through a
metal detector. You scan any bag you have with you,
and then they have a scanner, an X ray machine
designed to find things that are even within body cavities,
if you've ingested anything. I mean it is it was
(08:03):
impressive technology that every guard is required to go through
every day when they walk in. I will say, they
didn't make me go through those skins, So I guess
that there are some benefits to being part of the
United States government. I was there with the Justice Minister
who was giving me the tour himself, so I guess
they were not terribly worried about my having swallowed balloons
(08:23):
with heroin in them, or having a shank and sealed somewhere.
I had neither, but I was glad that they did
not check. So I went into the main prison and
you drive and you have a whole series that there's
a gate, there's another gate, and there's another gate, and
there are walls. It's a little bit like the opening
of Get Smart, where you go through gate after gate
after gate. Yeah, it's a whole series of walls and
(08:47):
barbed wire, and I mean it's it's imposing. I mean
it is not. It is designed so there ain't nobody
getting out. And I asked them if they had anyone escape.
They they've never had anyone to escape. I believe them,
and I believe them because what I saw then, I've
never seen anything like this. So they have eight units
(09:08):
that are built. Each of the units is designed to
house five thousand prisoners. That's why the capacity is forty
thousand prisoners. They are at about fifty percent capacity right now.
They're just under twenty thousand prisoners that are there right now.
So I went into one of the eight units. In
that unit, they have a series of massive cells. Each
(09:30):
of the cells holds one hundred prisoners. Now, the cells
that hold one hundred prisoners, they have four sets of
long bunk beds that go up four levels high. So
these cells are I don't know, probably thirty feet up
in the air. I mean they're in terms of height,
(09:52):
they're high cells, and they have these bunk beds. The
bunk beds are made out of stainless steel. So the prisoners.
You walk and you see a hundred prisoners sitting on
these bunk beds, and these bunk beds are stainless steel.
They're no sheets, they're no blankets, they're no pillows. It
is one hundred prisoners. They're dressed in white. They're dressed
(10:15):
in white kind of loose fitting shirt shorts and T shirts,
and they are sitting there on these bunk beds four
levels up. So the fourth level up is I don't know,
it's probably it's north of twenty feet up. I mean
you have to climb up a ladder to get on it.
And so you just see one hundred prisoners and you
(10:36):
have to envision almost all of these. So they're all adults.
This prison does not have any juveniles. No one under
eighteen is there, and there are no women there. So
these are all men, and they're overwhelmingly young men. I
would say they're overwhelmingly eighteen to thirty five, and they're
all gang members. And there's no subtlety about this. In
(10:59):
fact that at one point in one of the cells
they had the prisoners come forward. They instructed them remove
their T shirts and you could see them remove their
T shirts and all of them had gang tattoos on them.
And it wasn't subtle. It was a giant MS thirteen
like across their chest. I mean, it is not.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Right and presses.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
They're not trying to hide it.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
It was that there was no ambiguity. And the prisoners
twenty three hours a day they're in those cells, and
in front of the cells are prison guards, and the
prison guards are standing there holding machine guns watching them
(11:44):
through the front of the bars above the prison cell
is there's a whole level above the prison cell and
and it's basically bars on top as well, and so
their prison guards on top of the prison cell looking
down on them. So unlike you know, you and I
(12:05):
have both seen a lot of prison movies where people
are off in dark corners and doing things in their
cells where they can't be seen. Sure, these prisoners are
being monitored constantly. The lights are on twenty four hours
a day. They do not turn the lights off, and
they have prison guards with machine guns watching them twenty
(12:26):
four hours a day. They allow the prisoners out of
their cells for an hour a day, and they allow
them in small groups of about twenty, so it's not
very many. And the small groups come out and they
do thirty minutes of calisthenics, and the calisthenics are led
by a prison employee, and it's so they don't have
(12:47):
weight equipment or anything else, but they're doing kind of
stretches and jumping jacks and various calisthenics. And then they
have thirty minutes of religious instruction. And I asked, I said, okay,
are those optional mandatory? They said no, they're mandatory. Uh.
And so that other than that one hour, the remaining
(13:07):
twenty three hours a day there in that cell. I
will tell you. I asked the justice minister, I asked
the head of the prison. It was also with me
in giving you the tour. I said, you know, I asked,
how much violence do you have? The answer was essentially
none that and you could see it. I mean, given the.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Prison, why is the consequences?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Explain the logic behind the reason why there's virtually none.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Look, I don't know. I'm just telling you what they
told me. I asked. I asked about prison rape. Look on, tragically,
in virtually every prison on Earth, rape is a significant risk.
It happens with with far too common frequency. They they
said it it didn't happen there, that they did not
(13:57):
deal with with prison rape. And I don't know that
I entirely believe that, but I got to say I
mostly believe that because prison rate normally occurs where you
have prisoners that are out of view of anyone and
able to be somewhere where someone can be the victim
of sexual assault. In this instance, when you have prison
(14:18):
guards with machine guns watching you at every moment, there's
not a lot of capacity to engage in an active violence.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I want to go back to what you were talking about,
the conditions there and also the rules and how they're
running their prisons down there in a way that I'm
kind of jealous that we're not doing it here.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, you mentioned that it is designed to make life unpleasant,
and I will say, look, it's clearly designed in capacity,
and it's doing that incredibly effectively. They've taken the murderers
off the streets, but it is also designed. Listen. I've
been to prisons before in Texas. I've been to the
(15:00):
prison in Huntsville. I've been a death row on Huntsville.
When I was the Solicitor General of Texas, there were
multiple legal challenges to the method of capital punishment in
Texas and I was defending that. I was defending that
in federal court. So I felt an obligation that I
needed to go and personally observe an execution. That I
couldn't do my job effectively and litigate defending the method
(15:25):
that Texas used for capital punishment unless I observed it myself.
So I went there. I was behind the scenes and
saw how capital punishment was executed. And I will tell you, look,
being in a Texas prison is no walk in a park,
to put it mildly, but it pales in comparison to
(15:45):
what I observed there. I have to say, I cannot
imagine life. It is hell on earth. It is you
are locked up every minute of the day. Now, you're
not subjective, assuming the reports from the head of the
prison is accurate, you're not subjected to violence and threat
(16:06):
and by the way, one of the things they do
so Previously, prisons had separated each gang, so they've sent
MS thirteen to one and eighteenth Street barrioed another. In
this instance, they don't do that. In fact, they mix
gang members, multiple gang members in the same cell. And
part of the reason for that is they said, look,
(16:27):
if you put all the MS thirteen gang members in
one prison, they end up operating the gang out of
there and it becomes a safe haven. And in this case,
and by the way, these gangs they're not just sort
of rivals. It's not like you know, the Yankees and
the Mets. I mean they are each other y. Yeah,
like if they see each other in the streets, they
opened fire and they're suddenly locked together in a cell.
(16:51):
So the hundred prisoners in a cell and I saw
like lined up, you would seem the main ones were
MS thirteen and eighteenth Street Barrio and you would see
the tax and they're all together, and they had to
learn them like they're going to be locked up in
the same cage together for a long time. I saw
several prisoners. I'm going to tell you in a minute
(17:11):
about an extended conversation I had with an MS thirteen
gang member, which was chilling, but I will say I
saw several several prisoners. There was one they showed me
that had a prison sentence of over a thousand years wow.
So he had been convicted of over six homicides, at
at least six. And one of the things that Justice
(17:34):
Minister said to me about MS thirteen, he said, in
the United States, to become an MS thirteen member, you
have to murder someone. That is the process of admission.
You cannot be admitted to the gang if you don't
kill somebody. What the Justice Minister told me is an
El Salvador to be a member of the gang, you
(17:56):
had to commit ten murders. So one of the things
he described to me, he said, listen, these people are
serial killers. They are mass murderers. And the reason the
crime rate plummeted is because they took all the mass
murderers off the street. They took the gang members and
and and gang activity is essentially nonexistent. And so like
(18:19):
I like, I had dinner in down downtown at Saints
albat Or, a very nice restaurant, a state restaurant there,
and the folks I was having dinner with it was
a cabinet member. I was having dinner with and and
and she said, look, it used to be a few
years ago, nobody would come here at night because you
would be robbed, you would be kidnapped, you'd be murdered.
(18:40):
And I'll tell you when I came to downtown, downtown
was beautiful that there were families, there were kids playing
like like it was transformation. And and this prison and
this zero tolerance they went after and they arrested, they
put in jail all the gang members and they said,
if you join the gang, it is a terror rist organization.
(19:01):
To join the gang, you are a murderer and we
are taking you off the street. And the success of
it is incredible. But they gave me an opportunity to
visit with an MS thirteen gang member who's from Texas.
And so they pulled him aside because he was from Texas,
and they said, you may, you may want to talk
with him, and so I did. I talked with him
(19:24):
for quite a bit of time. He was in his
early forties, he had lived much of his life in
the United States. We had perfect English, and he had
lived in Dallas for many years as an MS thirteen
gang member. And he described how he had grown up
in Virginia, and he'd lived in Virginia and Maryland and
(19:48):
DC and he said that then he became an MS
thirteen gang member when he was thirteen years old in
Falls Church, Virginia, and he described it. I said, well, how
did you come to be at this prison and he said, well,
I was deported so he was illegally in the United States.
He said, I was deported. I was sent back to
El Salvador. And he said, I committed a homicide here.
(20:10):
I was convicted of homicide. So he murdered someone in
Al Salvador, at least one person, and he admitted to it.
He was not hiding it. He's like, yeah, I committed
a homicide and that's why I'm here. And I said, well,
did you commit crimes in the United States? He said yes,
yes I did. And I said, well, what crimes did
you commit? Did you commit murder in the United States?
(20:32):
And he wouldn't answer, and it was clear, look, he
hadn't been convicted of murder in the United States, but
he said I, well, I committed crimes, but he didn't
want to answer the specific question. And it was interesting.
The Justice Minister was standing there with me and he
chimed in and he pressed again. He said, look, did
you commit homicide in the United States? Tell us? And
(20:52):
in his response, he said, well, you know how you
become a member of MS thirteen, So he did.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, that's about as honest some answers you're gonna get right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, yeah, he said he became a member when he
was thirteen, and the way you become a member is
your murder soon And he'd been in Virginia at extended time.
He'd been in Dallas as a gang member, so I
don't know. He may have murdered Texans. He did not,
He did not detail, and he was covered in tats,
and you know, he was a and I talked to
(21:25):
him and he had a forty years sentence, so he
will get out in his eighties. Wow. And I was
asking about that. And he has a family. He has
a wife and he has two kids. He has a daughter,
and he has a thirteen year old son that they're
(21:45):
all in Nolsalvador. And I asked him, I said, okay,
your son is thirteen, he's the same age you were
when you joined him as thirteen. I asked, do you
want him to join the gang? And he looked at
me horrified. He said no, no, And he had a comment.
It was a weird comment where he said, look, my
(22:06):
son is living here now and it's safe and he
doesn't have to join a gang. And it was this
is someone whose entire life is going to be in
a cage in a hole. And by the way, he said,
I'll never see my wife again, I will never see
my children again. But like, there's no visitation, there's no
he is locked in a cage with ninety nine other
(22:27):
gang members for the rest of his life. Wow, and
there look, there was a despair. And I asked him,
I said, look, you became you joined the gang at thirteen.
Why did you join the gang? He said, look, all
my friends were everyone I knew was that was the
world I was in that you joined the gang. You
join the gang, you survive. And I asked him, I said, well,
(22:49):
if you wanted to, could you quit. Let's say you
were fifteen or sixteen or seventeen. You said, all right,
I'm done. He said no, there's no way to quit.
He said, you had two options, kill or die. That's
what life was as a gang member. And I have
to say, listen, this is someone who I assume has
committed multiple murders. He admitted to at least two wan
(23:09):
or Nel Salvador, and at least one in the United States,
and it may have been many more. And so I'm
very glad he's incarcerated and not murdering people anymore. But
I will say, you know, I mean I felt a sadness.
This is a human being whose entire life is just
a waste and it and the sentiment he expressed, I mean,
(23:35):
he really did express joys the wrong word for it,
but I'd say gratitude that his thirteen year old son
does not have to live in a world. And he
had basically said, look, Al Salvador is much safer that
it's ever been. I mean, he was almost saying it's
a good thing he's in prison. He didn't quite say that,
(23:57):
but when he was talking about his son, that's basically
what he was saying. And that I got to say, Look,
in US prisons, they'll they'll let you read books, they'll
let you watch TV, they'll let you lift weights, they'll
let you play basketball, they'll let you play sports, you socialize,
and there's there may be some virtue to that, but
(24:20):
I got to say, any gang members, gang activity has
disappeared Nel Salvador. If you knew what life was like
for these guys, there's no way on Earth you'd be
willing to join a gang because their life is effectively over.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
What are the other parts of your trip involved? Going
to the Panama Canal and seeing some different things, including
a lot that deals with China. Now it's been a
big concern talk about that.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah. So I've spent a day and a half in Panama.
I flew from El Salvador to Panama and met with
with with multiple cabinet members, the Finance Minister, the Defense Minister,
the Public Safety minister, uh and the head of the
Panama Canal and and and I will say, remember one,
(25:09):
Panama is a beautiful country. Uh it is. It is
a gorgeous place. And and the people of Panama have
a deep affinity for America. I was struck by that.
You know that they repeatedly, the government officials, the Panamanians
that I visited with, there's a long history at a close,
(25:30):
close affinity for the United States. The Panama Canal is amazing.
So I went out on a boat and went to
the outer parts of the Panama Canal, and then I
went to one of the locks, and I saw I
saw one of the Panamas, like the super tankers coming through,
(25:50):
and and then also saw a little sailboat coming through,
and then a kind of medium sized container ship coming through.
It is amazing, it is like, it is very cool.
Number one, just how the Panama Canal operates. Like you
see the Panamax, the supertanker. The container ship is the
(26:12):
largest size possible to fit through the Panama Canal, and
it's built for that size. I mean, it is literally
this massive ship that is going through these locks. And
these locks have concrete on the side, and it's built
so the sides of the ship are within two feet
of the concrete walls on both sides, Like it's that big.
(26:33):
And what happens. So we were on the Pacific end
of the canal and a ship comes in and each
of the locks has to lower the ship twenty seven feet,
so it comes in into the locks. And it's interesting
for the big tanker that connect steel cables to the
tanker and they have locomotives on both sides to help
(26:54):
keep the ship right in the center. You've got only
two feet of clearance on both sides, so it'd be
really easy for it to small into the side of
the canal and it is in the lock, and then
it takes about eight to ten minutes for the water
to drain and for it to lower twenty seven feet,
and it's lowering twenty seven feet, and it goes to
(27:14):
the next lot and it lowers another I believe it's
twenty seven feet. All told, it's about eight I think
it's eighty one feet. That it has to rise to
get to the height of the lake in the interior,
and then it has to lower it to get to
the Atlantic Ocean of the Pacific Ocean, and both the
Atlantic and Pacific are about the same distance. To lower
(27:35):
the water twenty seven feet takes eight to ten minutes,
and so the water goes down and then the giant
gates open. It was amazing to watch the technology. I
saw the old control room. I saw the control room
where the lock is being operated, the old control room.
So the Panama Canal was built in nineteen fourteen. The
United States built it, and we lost thousands and thousands
(27:59):
of lots I was building it. It's an incredible engineering marvel.
So the old control room had these brass ge equipment.
You saw the old g General Electric and Electric that
they built one of the first early computers to help
operate the locks. It's amazing now now it's all computerized
(28:22):
in high tech. So the old brass controls of each
lock that gives you the water height. And it was
literally it almost looked like something Captain Nemo would have
in terms of the nineteen fourteen levers and switches to
operate the canal that's still preserved there. When I went
out on the boat, one of the things I saw
(28:43):
ben is right at the entrance, the Pacific entrance of
the canal, there is a gigantic port that is owned
and controlled by Communist China, and it's right there, and
they have cranes. They're right there in a position. There
is also China is building a bridge, a bridge across
(29:06):
the canal. It is a bridge for cars. They were
awarded the contract to build the bridge. China is also
there's a Chinese company that is digging a tunnel under
the canal for a metro trade. And so I saw,
I saw where the metro was going to go. I
saw the bridge being built, and it's all right there
(29:27):
at the mouth of the canal. And I went the
purpose of my visit was to meet with the Panamanian
government and say, look, China cannot have control of this canal.
It is too important to the United States, to our
national security, to our economic security. As you know, I'm
the chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee. The Commerce Committee
(29:49):
has jurisdiction over the Panama Canal, and so earlier this
year I chaired a hearing on the Panama Canal in
the Commerce Committee and we laid out the concerns, in
particular the concerns of China. And when I laid out
to the Panamanian officials, I said, look, if God forbid,
(30:10):
we find ourselves in a military conflict with China. Let's
say next year China invades Taiwan and President she has
repeatedly said he wants to invade Taiwan. If he does so,
there's a very real possibility that escalates into a military
conflict with the United States. If China is in an
(30:31):
active military conflict with the United States, I think the
risk is unacceptable that China would try to shut down
the Panama Canal because if they shut down the Panama Canal,
it massively delays our ability to move military ships from
the Atlantic to the Pacific to engage with the Chinese
(30:53):
in Taiwan because it forces our military ships instead to
go around the southern tip of South America rather than
through the canal. And so if you're president, she look,
you wouldn't do it at the time of peace. But
if they're at war, it becomes a really compelling situation
(31:13):
to say, let's impose massive economic harm on the United
States and we get enormous benefits. They're billions of dollars
of revenue that comes from shipping. Shipping, whether it is
is oil and gas through the Panama Canal or goods
and containers, and shutting down the Panama Canal would be
a real blow to the United States economy. But it
(31:36):
would also be a real blow to our military because
it would limit our ability to move naval ships from
the Atlantic to Pacific. It would massively delay moving that
those ships. And so what I'm pressing Panama, I will
say when I shared the hearing on the Panama Canal,
within a week they announced the deal to sell those
(31:59):
two do Chinese ports to an American business consortium. That
deal has not gone through yet. The Chinese are slow
walking in and part of the purpose of my trip
was to press the Panamanian government and say, look, you
need to get the Chinese the hell out of here.
Do not leave them in a position where they can
shut down this canal, because shutting down this canal would
(32:22):
be an enormous economic and national security blow to the
United States, but it would also be an enormous blow
to Panama. And so part of the case I was
making them is their interests and our interest are aligned.
They don't want China to be in a position to
shut down the canal.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Yeah, great point.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
We're going to continue talking about this issue, I can
promise you on our podcast, So make sure you download
Vertic with Ted Cruz wherever you get your podcasts. We
do the show as a podcast three days a week,
so grab it. You can tell Siria Alexa, hey play
Vertic with Ted Cruise. That will happen as well, and
we hope that you'll join us again next weekend here
wherever you're listening to show, on whatever station you're listening to,
(33:01):
and then senday and I will see you
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Back here on our podcasts all week long.
Host
Ben Ferguson
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