Amanda de Cadenet explores the secrets to successful extended relationships with America's number one divorce lawyer, Laura Wasser. Laura has represented a string of celebrity clients, from Angelina Jolie to Dr Dre.
As divorce attorney to the stars, she tells Amanda “One of the things that enrages me the most is false accusations” and shares how she advises her celebrity clients to conduct themselves in the public eye.
Laura herself is not married, (“What’s the reason marriage would make sense for me? I can't think of one.”). She divorced her husband in 1993 and subsequently had two sons from separate relationships, maintaining relationships with both men.
Amanda asks Laura to share her experience and advice on what women should know going into a marriage – and what they should know before they “burn the house down” and go into divorce.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My conversation today is with a true trailblazer. She is
the type of person that you hope you never have
to use, but if you had to, you'd be relieved
to know that she's on your side. I'm talking about
the big time divorce attorney, Laura Wasser. Laura is considered
among the most important legal voices in the United States
and has guided so many high profile clients through what
(00:21):
can be one of the messiest moments of their lives, divorce.
Maybe some of you have been through one, I know
I have. Some of the celebrities that Laura has represented
include Angelina Jolie, Chris Jenna, Johnny Depp. Laura has written books,
she serves on numerous boards, hosts her own podcasts, and
started an online divorce service that helps people handle amicable
(00:42):
divorces with less professional help. I could go on and
on about Laura, but I want you to listen to
this interview. I'm really excited to share it with you.
Let's get right to it. So, you handle a lot
of very well known clients when they're going through a divorce.
What is the first thing you say to someone when
they contact you? Well, I don't usually speak with them first,
(01:05):
my assistant does. We've got like a really good kind
of screening system so that in the event both people
were to call or we had spoken to one like
years ago or maybe even represented one years ago, and
the other one called. So usually it's my assistant Vicky,
and she does what we call like an intake call,
and she gets some information from them about how long
they've been married, whether they've got children, what the issues are, um,
(01:30):
if we know who's representing their spouse. First she'll just
check who their spouses and make sure there's no conflict.
And once she gets kind of that intake information, then
she'll pass it on to me and will decide whether
it makes sense. We'll see if there is a conflict.
And then usually still she'll schedule an appointment or a call.
And so then the first thing I say is usually
(01:51):
what's going on? I mean they you know, it's you
walk a thin line as the family law attorney because
you want to have compassion obviously. I mean, it's the
one kind of a lawsuit that you'll be in where
these people are going to have to move on and
see each other if they've got kids, you know, in
the future. It's not like you know, slip and fall
(02:11):
or a landlord tenant where you're like, I'm never going
to see them again, So you want to handle it
the right way. You want to kind of encourage them
to be reasonable because it will save them money and
and toxicity and aggravation. So and they also need to
tell their story. So I let them speak for a
while because I want to hear what's going on and
even just how they relay the information. If they lead
(02:33):
with he fucking cheated on me and he's horrible and
whatever else, we know we have somebody that's hurt and angry,
and how are we gonna do with that? If they're
very kind of like we have ten million dollars and
you know the majority of it was a crew during
our marriage, then I'm like, okay, they're all business. We're
going to divide money. It's community property. So I want
to hear their take on it. And then usually I'll
(02:54):
give them kind of a family law one oh one
type of a spiel, because most of the time people
are coming to get formation. They want education because they're
scared and they want to see what it's going to
look like as they move through it. And at the
end and that's why they come. And then they also
want to see I guess if they've got to report
with me and the other members of my firm. Yeah,
And different lawyers are known for different things, right, I mean,
(03:17):
obviously there are people who are known for being contentious.
Whenever my friends call me and they are thinking about
getting divorced, I will say, stay away unless you want
a contentious divorce. Their way from this person. Speak to
that person, because people are known for settling fast, or
drawing things out or really playing dirty. So interesting that
(03:38):
you listen to their story and then work out what
kind of what what approach you're going to take, right,
if indeed you're even going to work with them, How
do you decide how you're going to work with people? Actually,
Vicky decided a lot of that. Like she'll put on
her notes like, you know, fifty million dollars, you know,
wife cheated on him, angry but reasonable or you know,
but sometimes at the end she'll write runaway or no,
(04:01):
I don't think had the crazy And usually she can
screen those out pretty well. But if she can't, then
I'll have a call and I'll usually figure it out. Um,
you know, there's been a big upswing in allegations of
domestic violence over the last ten years. And you know,
obviously those are very important cases. But unless there's something
(04:22):
that I see to be, you know, really genuine, I
probably will pass. I just I feel like they're too
often being kind of used as a sword instead of
actually doing good. And we're family law attorneys, were not
criminal attorneys, were not you know, there are people that
specialize in that. So that's one thing I'll usually say,
maybe this isn't a good fit. If somebody comes in
(04:43):
with complusion, I hate that we're not a good fit.
That's my least favorite thing to hear. Oh I know,
I probably would say, oh, just, I'm not a good
fit for you. How's that? You know? Sometimes most of
the time they're open to hearing what I have to say.
If they come in a they're like, I'm the mom,
I want full custody, I get the house. He cheated
(05:04):
on me, he's an asshole. I'm like, okay, here's how
the law works. And you don't just get the kids
because you're the mom. And he can be an asshole
as a spouse, but he's not necessarily an asshole as
a dad. And are you willing to come around to
my way of thinking, because that's probably how it's gonna
end up. And if she's like no, then I'll say,
I know you hate this, not a good fit, like
(05:24):
let me, let me send you to somebody else. You
hear so often about cases going horribly a wall, and
you you look at the facts and you're like, how
is this possible? California law maintains that it's fifty fifty
whatever it was earned in the relationship, you split down
the middle. There's no debating that. And yet I've spoken
to so many people who say, well, you know I
(05:46):
got I didn't get that, And I'm like, well, how
is that possible? In California? Sometimes it goes that way
because people are actually misinformed. If you marry a multimillion
dollar rock star, but he made his multimillion dollars before
he met you, he didn't make them during the course
of the relationship. He may not be obligated to pay
you that much. In the end. There might have been
a prenup um, there might have been other extenuating circumstances
(06:10):
that lead to a different outcome than what somebody would
have thought. But the best answer I can give you
is that likely when things go on and on and
on like that and really get dragged out, it's because
the attorneys have probably done some kind of a disservice
to one client to the other and not given them
realistic expectations at the outset. Because there's so many times
(06:30):
that I see a case where I'm like, this is
how it's gonna end up. The only variable here is
how much I'm gonna get paid, how much the other
lawyer is gonna get paid, and how angry the two
of you are going to get in the process. Because
this is how it's going to end up. And by
the way, when I represent the spouse, which I most
of the time do, who has who is the greater
(06:50):
earner or a greater asset holder, whether it's the man
or the woman, I will generally say to that person,
here's how it's gonna end up, and here's what I
think you should do. You should may can offer of
this plus a little extra, and here's why, because if
we don't settle, then you're gonna pay that little extra
to me and the other lawyer, and in aggravation, let's
(07:10):
just give it to your spouse now. And if we
come back around a year later and we're still arguing.
We're still fighting. You can say, remember this day in
May of two when I offered you this, and look
where we are now. And may not make you feel better,
and it won't get you the money back, but at
least this is a business transaction. And like what you
(07:31):
said before about you know, California is a no fault
and it's not his or her fault. It is his
or her fault. They're an asshole, there's no question about that,
but not according not in the eyes of the law,
for cheating on you. But the law is like, yeah,
and that should not affect that paternal rights or whatever. Correct,
So you deal with that part of it in therapy
(07:51):
or with your support system and your friends and all that,
but not within the legal system where all that's gonna
happen is that big bills are going to get generated.
And again, there's plenty of people in southern California Hi
practice that can absolutely afford to pay divorce attorneys, you know,
thousands of dollars per hour. But the majority of this
country is not in that situation. And if you think
(08:13):
about the fact that half of the marriages in this
country end in divorce. Then you have to imagine that
there has to be a more cost effective way of
doing this, not just cost financially, but cost to your psyche.
And that's that's why we create it's over easy, which
is now divorced dot Com to be able to go
online learn about it even if you're not having a consultation.
(08:35):
Educate yourself, get the forms, figure out what you need
and effectuate some kind of an agreement with your spouse
without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, I mean,
I honestly wonder why there's two things that I think
should be taught in schools to all kids, financial literacy
and marriage and divorce. Anything to do with legal contracts.
(08:58):
We're just not taught about it until it's too far
down the line. So you say that you're not a
therapist to your clients, but you're dealing with people at
them most vulnerable. So and Vicky is right. So Vicky's
like your work wife. I can tell. So, how do
you manage people's elevated emotions? I try. I'm like, look,
(09:20):
I do commiserate. We've all been there. You know, We've
had a messy breakup. I've worried about are my kids
gonna be Okay, I've worried about am I gonna be
able to afford private school or my mortgage or whatever.
I get it. It doesn't serve you to have me
at my hourly rate commiserating or offering like, you know, helpful,
like go girl whatever. I mean, I'm there, I'll do it.
(09:42):
But really, let's focus on the law, and let's apply
it to the facts of your situation, and let's make
a good deal for you. Let's get you out of this.
And I try to say that in a reasonable way
that still has some compassion, and most of the time
they get it, and they appreciate it, because I have
seen other attorneys who all of a sudden become like
besties with the person and and they're charging them to
hear about like their first date on bumble or something.
(10:05):
And I think that's not really I think it's unethical
to do that. Do you ever have clients that challenge
your moral compass? I suppose. I mean, again, my line
of work is relatively cut and dry. If somebody came
to me and said, look, I've got a bank account
in the Cayman Islands and I don't want to tell
her about it. I'd be like, too bad, we have
to tell her there's a full disclosure in the state.
(10:26):
I'm not getting dragged into this. I mean, you know,
I have clients that you know, usually it's custody where
somebody may not be the greatest parent. And what I'll
say is, listen, if we're really fighting for custody. What
I would do if I were used, so that you're
really equipped when we win, is go take a couple
of parenting classes so that you understand how to do this.
I mean, that's you know, nobody. I would not sacrifice,
(10:49):
not only myself or my entire firm. I'm the managing
partner of a sixteen person firm for for somebody that
wanted to like lie or do something that was you know,
unethical legally. But there's a there is gray area in
terms of like, are we really fighting for this person
to get custody when we know he or she isn't equipped.
I mean, I more mean, have you ever represented someone
(11:10):
who as you get into the case, they turn out
to be someone that they did not present themselves to be.
Where you're going, Oh, okay, I went into this thinking
this person was a certain way based on my conversations
with them. But actually this information is coming to light
that maybe they there's some things they didn't tell me,
(11:30):
and now I'm in this case. Has that ever happened
to you? Yeah? But it doesn't necessarily matter. I mean,
so what am I going to find out? I'm going
to find out that they actually had multiple affairs. It
doesn't matter me. I don't need to like them or
what am I going to find out? Like if I
found out that they were abusive or that they like
had a drug. I mean, none of it really affects
my representation of them. And remember, I don't need to
(11:53):
like them, right interesting? Wow, you see that's that's fascinating
to me that you you have represented people that you
don't necessarily like, but you are upholding the law and
you are moving forward despite your personal feelings. That's it's
like now again different for maybe a criminal defense attorney.
(12:14):
I think that would be harder. I have friends that
are criminal defense aturnays. I'm like, you know, he's guilty
and you're still representing him. But thankfully I don't have
that ethical quandary. I just apply the law. You can
be a total douche. You're still gonna get spousal support
from your wife if she makes more money than you. Right, Okay,
So you grew up with two parents who were lawyers. Yeah,
(12:36):
so you knew it was possible for you as a
woman to be a lawyer. They how old were you
when they got divorced. I was sixteen and I was
a boarding school in Switzerland. I already thought I knew everything,
so it did not affect me that much. But just
to back up, not only did I know it was
possible for me to be a lawyer, I was doing
everything to avoid it. They named me lay Roster so
(12:57):
that my initials are law like. They just pushed it
so appointed you, yes, And I was like, there, I'm
never doing that. And then of course, here I am,
so isn't that that happened so often? Where you're like, oh,
I said I would never be like that my parents
and that capacity, And here I am, So you said
your parents divorced did not really affect you? Why did
(13:18):
it not really affect you? I? You know, having grown
up here in l A by the time I was fourteen,
I thought I was like fully formed. I now know
that I wasn't. But by sixteen I was living abroad.
I had kind of seen the world. I was one
ft out the door. Um, anything that would have I mean,
I didn't grow up in two homes. I and my
(13:38):
parents also were the most amazing examples of civility and
respect and post dissolution love for each other. So I mean,
you know that was possible too, Yes, And that's definitely
affected how I've had relationships with men and the fathers
of my children and all that. All this amicable kind
of co parenting stuff comes rather easily to me because
(13:59):
I watched my errants do it. Um, So you know,
to say it didn't affect me, of course, everything affects one.
I get that, But I was It wasn't like I
was going back and forth to to two different homes
when I was growing up. I was already kind of
out of the home by the time that this happened.
So your parents had more of a kind of conscious uncoupling. Totally. Wow,
(14:20):
I'm always so impressed. I am the product of a
very very messy divorce as a child, and then I
got divorced. I was first married at age seventeen, and
um divorced at twenty two, and now I've been married
for twenty years, so I've had the experience of two
divorces and you know, and a long term marriage touch wood,
(14:44):
so as it makes. I mean, look, we only learned
from our experiences and what you went through with your parents.
I mean, it's exactly the reason that I do what
I do, not so much at the firm, which is
a job, and I still teach the younger associates and
partners there how to do it this way. But with
divorce dot com too, we have to move that needle
so that people in our kids generation grow up. And look,
(15:07):
I don't wish divorce on anybody, but let's be realistic.
It's happening, and when it does, we have to be
able to do it better than how our parents did it.
Not mine, they knew what they were doing. But for
the most part, people in our generation, if their parents
got divorced, it wasn't pretty. They did not have any tools. Yeah,
and we have tools and we have ways to do it.
(15:28):
And so I do I feel the needle is moving slowly,
but I do think it's moving and we just have
to be better about it for our kids sakes. Yeah,
very much. So. So you are married for a little
over a year when you were in your twenties, how
would you do marriage differently today? Completely? I mean, you know,
even the relationships that I've had since then, the fathers
(15:49):
of both of my sons, and other long term relationships
that I've been in, I just come to them with
so much more knowledge, so much more respect, and as
you said, tools and the communication is so key in
being able to have extended relationships and and and make
sure that you're properly getting information back and forth. I
(16:12):
just think that that's definitely what I would do in
a marriage, or, like I said, in a long term
monogamous relationship. As a lawyer, I can imagine you're extremely
adept at listening, at mirroring back what you're hearing about,
clarifying when you're confused, or making sure that the other
person understands what you're saying. But I am wondering if
(16:34):
in your own personal relationships, because you're around conflict because
of your job, are you conflict avoidant in any way
in your own life? Definitely? I definitely think so. I
picked my battles um and I try to be as
thoughtful and eloquent as I can, but obviously when it's personal,
(16:55):
it comes out differently, But yes, I mean I don't
like it's funny. Most of the long term relationships I've
had have said to me, like, you know, you know,
we never argue, And I said, that's because I pretty
much say right from the beginning if there's an issue.
But I don't have big arguments usually because again I
have learned in relationships to bring something up. I don't
(17:15):
harbor lots of resentment. I will admit that that there
have been a few relationships that I've had, both romantic
and not, where I've let things go for too long
because I was conflict avoidant, and then the resentment built
up so much and then the ship at sail I
was done. There was no getting back into it. But
but more generally speaking, I think if you learn those
tools early on, which is why I suggest that couples
(17:38):
that are about to get married or that are talking
about prenuptial agreements go to some kind of counseling before
they get married. I say that too, That's what I
tell everybody when they think of getting married. I say,
get into couples counseling now, so that you've got the
language and the tools when stuff starts to go, you know,
feel uncomfortable, so that you're not jumping in in a crisis.
(18:00):
You've already built that muscle. Yes, do you find it
hard to find partners who are equals to you? I
mean financially speaking in every capacity, emotionally, financially, just someone
who's an equal partner. Yes, I suppose so. I mean again,
I think everybody brings different things to the table um.
(18:22):
But yes, as I've gotten older, it has been I
mean maybe I'm a little bit more picky. It's just
it hasn't been quite as simple as just like falling
into something with somebody, and like we've it's not just baggage,
it's experienced, it's family members good and bad that we
have at you know, after a certain amount of years.
And so it does make it a little bit more
(18:42):
difficult to easily kind of entwined with somebody. Yeah. Have
you ever been on a dating app? No? I'm so
curious how that would be for you, Like how you
would fill out your profile? M me too. Somebody asked
me the other day or something about a profile and
I was like, what's what profile? And they're like for
your data up? And I was like, I've never been
on one I mean I've been very lucky. I've been
(19:04):
always able to meet people through friends and whatever else.
But I don't, you know, probably be a good self
reflective thing to fill out a dating app profile just
to see what I'd say. Yeah, I'm always really curious,
Like I've been married for so long, but I'm really
curious what kind of person I would get matched with
if I filled one of those out. So, as a lawyer,
(19:25):
you've obviously seen some pretty bad behavior um in your
years as a divorce attorney. As a mom to two sons,
do you feel inclined to educate them about marriage based
on what you've seen? Yes, I mean they're young. My
oldest just turned seventeen, and they also just because they've
been driving in cars with me for you know, their
(19:47):
entire lives. Not only are they masters of profanity, but
they also know a bit about there are usually more
interested in things like child custody, like well, what how
old was that little boy that you were talking about?
And is he going to be able to see his dad?
I mean, they can't help not hearing it, and they
it's foreign to them. Just in terms of like my
exes and I have never had any kind of written
(20:09):
anything between us in terms of finances or anything. We've
always worked it out. We have schedules that, like I'll
usually put together at the beginning of the year and
then by about you know, March, we've strayed from them
because the kids just go back and forth, and everybody's
always at everybody's house, mostly mine because I have all
the food. But um, and that goes for their dads too.
Lots of food, lots of eating happening. But do you
(20:30):
have both dads? Have you had both dads over at
the same time? Oh yeah, yeah, Wow, this is impressive.
I have to say, well, look, I have not only
a lot of experience with this, but they probably also
have a bit of trepidation about maybe not not working
out so well. So everybody's very motivated to make it.
(20:53):
I like that everyone's very motivated. I like your choice
of woods that I actually saw that you joked in
an interview that you don't want to remarry and that
you're just an old hippie procreating with anyone that comes along,
which I figured you must have said a long time ago.
But right, it's like one of those quotes that follows
you around wonder and when he was interviewing me for
(21:14):
Interview magazine. But he still teases me about it. I
can't even believe I said that. He was like, you're
an old hippie because I wasn't old then now I'm
old and now I can't procreate. Probably, so yeah, So
would do you believe in the institution of marriage today?
In two? Not for me, but for others? Sure? Why
not for you? I don't think that I'm interested in
(21:39):
having the state play a part in my personal or
financial affairs. I mean, as it is, I've got kids,
so the state's going to play a part in that
a bit. But we've never invited the state into it because,
as I said, none of our things are kind of
reduced to writing. And by the way, I do not
recommend this. I want to go on record and saying
that is it is not the right way to do it.
(22:00):
We can do it because I know the INDs and
the outs of the law, but for most people, I mean,
we do a visitation with your kids, yes, it's it's
And for financial matters, it's important to have things reduced
to writing, and it's important to have court orders and
and very few exceptions to that existing as a lawyer,
I wholeheartedly encouraged people to have things reduced to writing
so that there's no question later on or whatever else.
(22:22):
But but for the most part, um, I just feel
like I mean, I had a wedding and it was beautiful.
It was at the Hotel bel Air, and I was
twenty five years old. The pictures are still gorgeous. I
don't think I could do better than that. I can't.
It's not so much why don't I believe in it?
It's what's the reason that would make sense for me?
And I can't think of one. I mean, personally, I
(22:43):
feel like there needs to be an update of what
marriage means, and it's down to two individuals to ideate
that and to agree with that. But I think it
is obviously a huge commitment because you can get into
it and then all right, it takes a lot to
get out of it. Yes, absolutely, and that's the part
(23:03):
that people aren't really educated about. And why I love
that you have it's divorce dot com. Now, Yes, that's
a great time. Obviously, that's the best U r L.
How long were you waiting for that one? I didn't
buy it. The people that own divorce dot Com waited
a long time, and I'm pretty sure paid quite a bit,
and then they began to roll the rest of us up.
(23:25):
I knew them at the time, but yes, and they
waited a long time, and it's it's great and my, my, my,
My title there is Chief of Divorce Evolution, So it's
code which I like and so um. I not only
am I kind of the face of it, but I
also am the one person there that has practiced family
(23:45):
law and can kind of give them, you know, at
least in most of the states, I have an understanding
of how the law works because we are nationwide, and
it really is, I think, such a great tool for
people that are at a point where they just they
don't want to start completely burning the house down, so
to speak. With the divorce. Do you think that divorce
practices need to evolve? Yeah, and I have to say
(24:08):
that over the last ten years, I haven't necessarily seen
them evolve in the right direction, which is also why
I'm such a big proponent of the do it yourself model.
And some of my colleagues have said, aren't you totally
cannibalizing us? And I'm like, no, because there's always going
to be people that have complicated, complex divorces, Like you
were saying, how could it go so wrong? Isn't it
cut and dry? But let's say I have a corporation
(24:31):
and I owned it before where I started it, before
we got married, and then when I was married, I
worked at it and it really really increased in value.
So there's like a hybrid of community property and separate property.
Or there's a I create a television show and it's
a big hit, and then I get married and they
have a sequel spin off, and so what royalties and
residuals from what kind of you know, the shows and
(24:51):
the packaging there. There are complicated ones, but for the
most part, it's pretty simple. And yet people get so conflicted,
and it's such a great way to earn a dollar
off of somebody else's pain and fear and confusion, and
that bothers me and I feel like it wasn't like
that quite as much when I started practicing. I think
(25:12):
COVID and uncertainty, and you know, the twenty four hour
news cycle has made it so much easier for people
that may not have the best intentions to really make
a lot of money off of other people's misery. And
I don't. I don't like that. That doesn't sit well
with me. How have you handled You said that over
(25:33):
the last ten years you've seen an uptick in domestic
violence cases. Have you also seen an uptick in sexual
assault cases with the birth of the Me too movement?
Because I have a lot of female friends who were
the who experienced sexual assault, and then I've also had
men who were falsely accused. So I mean, I hear
(25:55):
stories on both sides of it. But I'm wondering if
in the cases that you're king on, if you've seen
and not taken those kinds of cases as well. Not
so much. In my cases, it's more violence than sexual abuse,
because again, I think people don't necessarily understand that you
can rape your spouse. Espousal abuse and spouse rape is
a very real thing. We don't hear about it as
(26:17):
much because they're already getting divorced and they probably have
abuse claims there. Um. So no, I mean, I hear
about it because I've live in the world and I've
seen what's going on. And I have to say, one
of the things that like enrages anymore than anything is
false accusations. Not so much because oh, these poor and
and I guess there could be accusations against women that
are false too. So there's this poor person that's being
(26:39):
you know, accused. How could this happen? Yes, that's awful,
But what's worse is that it's taking the court time
and the attention away from real victims of domestic violence
and that and usually they're the ones that don't get
the attention. They don't have the financial abilities or the
linguistic It's a lot of people where English isn't their
first language, and they're kind of getting shoved out of
(27:01):
the system because some of the people who might have
more interesting stories or more money or more celebrity are
coming forward and taking just gobs of time and court
rooms with these allegations. And it's it's a very big problem. Yeah,
And if they even make it to court, a lot
of the cases are just the court of public opinion.
(27:22):
There is no due process whatsoever. And those are the
ones that I some of them, some of those ones
I've been really challenged by because they're never going to
make it to court. Um. Speaking of which, I saw
that you got deposed in the Johnny Amber case, and
I'm sorry that you got deposed. That is a case
that is monopolizing all media at the moment, and it
(27:48):
really dis reminded me how people are obsessed with celebrity
crisis obsessed And you've been at the center of any
of those high profile divorce prices, And what is the
biggest difference between a regular divorce with you know, Jane
(28:09):
Doe and a celebrity divorce. There's only one or two Frankly,
I mean, there's so much more the same. Whether you're
like thinking, oh god, you know who's gonna walk the
red carpet with me? Or oh God, who's going to
go to the company Christmas party with me? And the
you know what city church, those things remain the same.
(28:29):
The dollars, you know, may have more zeros at the
end of them for celebrities, But the biggest difference is
the press. You know, you are under a microscope. The
shot and freud is amazing. The public wants to know.
And then you know, for the most part, celebrity couples
these days want to keep it on the d l
especially if they have kids, They really want to keep
(28:50):
it quiet. Everybody is kind of following the conscious uncoupling model,
and even if they don't get along so well, they
smile and say they get along well, because that's kind
of the norm. Frankly, I think it's a good thing.
Fake it till you make it, to make nice. Don't
give the tabloids anything to talk about. So that when
your kids in line at the grocery store with the nanny,
he doesn't see you on the newsstand with your face
I'll squinched up saying something horrible about his dad. That's fine, um,
(29:15):
But I think that sometimes you have individuals that use
it to their benefit, whether it's just their their celebrity
gets you know, driven up because they've made a messy
situation or the threat of well you everybody loves you,
and I'm going to turn this into something bad if
you don't pay me this or let me have this
custody situation or whatever it is. So again, you are
(29:38):
at the risk of being taken advantage of if you
are in the public eye, because you, I guess, need
to care what the public thinks about you. And so
that's a that's a scary thing because of exactly what
you said. Are our culture, because it's certainly not just
the United States, is so absolutely enamored and driven by
I can't believe how many people are watching that trial.
It's amazing to me. I mean the people that reached
(30:00):
out to me after the deposition took place in December
of and I think and it must have said it
across the bottom of the screen, and yet and there
was Christmas decorations in the background, and yet people were like,
how is Virginia? Are you enjoyed? And I'm like, I'm
not in Virginia. That was two years ago. So yeah,
I think I think people are watching. I'm befuddled as
(30:21):
to why it's so interesting, but I think that it
is something that we really do. And and this it
wasn't like that before the advent of TMZ and Radar
online and these social media constantly social media, it wasn't
like that. Yes there were pr people, and yes there
was crisis control and we had to keep things quiet,
but it wasn't so immediate. And frankly, they were a
(30:44):
little bit more careful back then, because they wouldn't just
put something up if they didn't fact check and make
sure it was true. And now, because it moves so quickly,
they are not as careful as they were in the past,
and that can be really problematic. For somebody who's life
is kind of in the balance, Bay has done their
reputation or their public persona. And you know, quite frankly,
(31:05):
with that case, the the amount of intimate personal details
that only the people who were in that relationship should
know about that are now made public. I don't think
we've ever seen a case with this level of exposure
on a personal, deeply intimate level, and I hope it's
not a precedent for what can happen in the future. Now.
(31:30):
And by the way, the choice of that that case
being broadcast live, you know, one party wanted it broadcast
live and the other one didn't. And it can also
be used to someone's advantage or disadvantage. The fact that,
again the court of public opinion is so powerful today
that you cannot escape it. You just cannot, even when
(31:52):
something a case is being tried in the courtroom. The
fact that everybody has an opinion on it, that the
court of public opinion has almost taken over. It doesn't matter,
It will matter what the end result is, of course,
but the public opinion is the one that dictates whether
that person is going to be hired again, whether they're
going to be what kind of relationship, like it's just
(32:13):
dictating that what their life will look like moving forward,
and it should not have that amount of power. Also
probably true. Oh my gosh, Okay, you were listening to
VS voices. Stick around and we'll be right back after
this short break. How was your dad's practice different to
(32:36):
how yours is today. Well, he's male, and so I
think he did far less custody than I do. He
had a different way of doing things. He was always
very settlement oriented. I did learn that from him, and
that's kind of the thrust of how our firm functions.
But he um probably did more litigation. I think at
(32:58):
the time it was less cost prohibitive to actually get
into a courtroom and try a case. I just finished
a six day trial downtown at Los Angeles Superior Court,
and I mean it was it was brutal, and you know,
people are still wearing masks and they're just getting those days.
It took probably six years to work up to this.
I mean, you're talking about a kid who was you know,
(33:20):
he's just turning seven, and so, I mean, I feel
like it was just a different time back then. I
think the core values that my dad brought and brings
to the practice were similar, although, like I said, he's
a dude, so I and the clientele and the clientele
is similar, right, because he represented a lot of high
profile people as well. Yes, yes, he was kind of
(33:42):
the guy back then and they would call him. He
definitely represented more men though, like it was very clear
that he was like the guys, and I definitely do
very much both. Um, we both on. Our firm generally
takes them the breadwinner or the more moneyed spe house.
That just seems to be how it turns out, which
(34:02):
for me is a benefit because that's usually the more
business minded person. And I enjoy working for somebody who
wants to be reasonable and considers this a financial settlement
and is listening to what I say, Like I said before,
like I know how this is going to end up.
Now take another X amount of dollars and put it
in the pot, because that's what we should do to
get it settled. Um. But again, he's a guy like
(34:24):
I remember once when I was young, he when I
was a young attorney, I had a client who had
a child already with his wife and they're in the
process of getting divorced, and as sometimes happens, they ended
up sleeping together again, and a couple of months later,
my client came in and said, I don't know what
to do. She's pregnant. Wow. The fact that in Roe v.
(34:46):
Wade can be overthrown is nothing less than shocking and
abysmal and will put women's rights back centuries and right
now we're just trying to work out whether they can
actually happen or not. Today abortion is still legal in
a multitude of states, but who knows. This is a
(35:06):
very short window that we have to actually work at
what can be done well and you and this is
the time more than ever where we really have to
get out and vote in our state primaries, which most
people don't you know, usually do, and really focus on
what's happening in our state. I mean, not so much
California turning, but is California going to be willing to
be a sovereign state? Are we going to be willing
to take up some of the excess from the other
(35:29):
states that aren't Things that we didn't have to think
about before we have to think about now. And it's
it's unfortunate, frankly, and it's scary for I was just saying,
like the youth, you know, we need to do divorce
better for the youth. Thankfully I have two boys, but
still they're going to have relationships with young women, and
we need to make sure that there's a safe place
for people to go. I watched an interview this morning
(35:51):
with Gloria Steinham and Katie Kirk, and they were asking
Gloria what she thought, and she's just I mean, all
of her work now, you know, going working up to
this and seeing what's happening right now. Can you imagine
how she must feel. I'd love to know who the
voices are that you well. My mom was. She passed
to it a couple of years ago. She was hugely
inspirational to me. She embodied everything that I think, what
(36:15):
you why you decided to do this podcast. She was
beautiful inside and now, but she was strong, and she
was wise, and she was also a real woman's woman.
Like you know, we talked about how you we want
to bring women under our wing and bring them up
and whatever, but so often I see that women don't
actually do that, and we may be worse at it
(36:37):
than some of our male counterparts. In terms of mentoring
and really teaching the younger generation. My mom was great,
like that she never had a moment that I was
able to ascertain of jealousy about me or my girlfriend's
being younger or a teen. She she aged with grace.
She was the consummate cheerleader for me. She was able
(36:58):
to treat young and old and rich and poor and
beautiful and not so esthetically pleasing with the most respect.
And her voice was one that I still hear every day,
because you know, I'm still miss her terribly. But she
was one. And then, you know, you have the you
have the glorious, you have the eleanor Roosevelt. You have
(37:18):
the people who were really willing to effectuate change, even
if it wasn't maybe the most attractive or palatable thing
in the moment. And you know, I I respect that,
you know, being a divorce lawyer. It's not exactly like
I'm curing cancer or you know, doing brain surgery. It's
something small, but I feel like, really, as I said earlier,
(37:41):
moving the needle, changing people's lives, helping with transitions and
next chapters. You know, it's it's a good job if
you can get it. I don't think it is. I
think it's actually a very one of the most significant
times in someone's life that you have a very heavy
hand in dictateing and helping shape how that's going to be.
(38:03):
And having been the product of a divorce that was atrocious,
you know, and and again largely down to the way
I think my parents, you know, were uneducated and were
guided by their lawyers. So I think you have a
huge responsibility and the impact on kids lives, and it's
(38:24):
it's you know, it's a really serious thing. Yes it's
not you know, brain cancer, but it is still incredibly serious.
So who who are the female role models that are
living today outside of Gloria that you admire. I really
admire Jane Bonda. I think she's wonderful. I think she
really encapsulates, you know, wisdom and rebellion and political awareness
(38:50):
and also femininity, which I think is you know, so
often were you have to pick one or the other.
But the idea that I looked, you know, chic and
a active to somebody while at the same time like
doing a job and being serious and hopefully it's somewhat
respected by the judicial officer before whom I was appearing.
That that means a lot um. By the way, Jane
(39:12):
Fonda is one of my all time favorite interviews that
I've ever done. She talks about marriage and divorce quite
a lot, actually, and her divorce from Ted Turner. We
talked about that quite extensively. Um. You know, it's interesting
you were talking about women supporting women and that your
mom um, you know, was an incredible role model for you,
(39:33):
and I was thinking about how it is quite sad
that we don't have more role models that truly role
model what it looks like to mentor other women, because
I think there is still a scarcity mindset. Women have
not been doing your job or even my job. Look
how many women you know host their own shows like two?
(39:54):
You know, it's terrible, And I think women have not
been in the workforce in areas that we're in for
that long, and there is still a scarcity mindset of like, oh,
if there's more women in the room, maybe I'm gonna
lose something. I'm not saying I necessarily have that you
have that, but a lot of women do, and that
prohibits them from freely sharing their experience or mentoring anybody.
(40:17):
And I very strongly believe in mentorship. I I've had
so many women mentor me and men as well, and
I would not be the person I am today without mentorship.
I agree, And I feel like it's not just the
matter of like who's the best woman in the room,
but the idea of, like I had to clon scratch
my way to the top, and you have to do
it too, know we the reason and by the way,
(40:38):
I didn't, I was very lucky. But you know, somebody
else clauded their way up. I kind of, maybe more
gracefully climbed my way up. And whoever else is gonna come,
I'm gonna give them a hand coming up, because that's
what we want, is for it to be easier to
ascend to a certain level and then being able to
bring other people up to that level. And so really
(40:59):
the idea of, like you said, mentorship male and females,
but particularly females, really being able to help other women
do well in whatever you do well and whether that's
you know, whether that's hosting it to a show, or
whether it's being an attorney, or whether it's speaking at
certain engagements, giving people that sense of empowerment super important.
(41:19):
As Gloria Steinem says, we are linked, we are not ranked, yes,
which I love. Okay, So you being the top notch
divorce attorney that you are, I feel like I want
to ask you some basic questions for our audience who
are listening. What are your top three tips before marriage
(41:42):
and your top three to successfully divorce? And I know
that you have a lot of this on you're on
divorce dot com, but I'm just curious for anyone listening. Alright,
So top three tips going into a marriage. One, get
munication tools like you said earlier, figure out how to
(42:03):
communicate well and problem solve while things are still good. Two. Uh,
don't abdicate financial responsibility to your spouse, whether he has
more or less money or earning capacity than you do.
Both of you, if you're going to be partners, should
take part in decision making and investments. And if you've
(42:25):
got a business manager that you meet with quarterly, go
to those meetings. UM, have your own credit card. So
many women in their sixties come to me, the most sophisticated,
well dressed could get a table at any restaurant in
l A. They don't even have their own credit card,
have established credit, have your own credit and then you know,
the third really is make sure you see the other
(42:48):
person's perspective. UM, you know, as you're in an argument
or as you're doing things in your relationship, as you're
getting ready for it, see how he or she feels
about things or how you would see it from their perspective.
It really helps in terms of battling resentment or even
conflict diversion, figuring out weighs like what do I think
(43:11):
he thinks about this? I think that's important. And then
for the divorce, the communication part is still really true.
I say to people so often, nobody knows your spouse
better than you. You want me to get in here,
write a letter to his or her lawyer that's going
to cost this much. Then the letter goes to them.
It's like a game of telephone. To the extent you can,
and to the extent that you can do it reasonably
and civilly reach out say look, this is really important
(43:35):
to me. Can we resolve this part of it? Or
what do you think about this? And if it doesn't
work because you just can't communicate at this tape at
this time and place, maybe figure out a way that
everybody gets in the room, or maybe we do some
mediation back and forth or something like that. So communication
is still really important. Remember that this is a person
that you're probably gonna know for the rest of your
(43:55):
life if you've got kids, so don't burn too many bridgetes.
It's okay if you're getting divorce, it's gonna be shitty
and you're gonna say some things, but try not to
get too bad. And then the third is be kind. Yeah,
we're so much kinder to the fucking strangers that we
don't even know on the street or in the elevator
than we are to our own loved ones, particularly someone
who at some point you looked into their eyes and
(44:17):
said I do, or held onto their hand while you
were on the delivery room table or whatever else. Figure
out what it was that you loved about this person
and trying to hang onto it as you go through
this difficult time. Don't transfer all that love and admiration
and respect to somebody that you're paying by the hour.
It's you, guys in this. You got into it, you
guys get out of it. Let us be your spirit
(44:37):
guides and help you. But don't assign too much power
to a person or or love to a person that
you're paying and that's making money from your conflict. Wow,
Laura was the spirit guide of dissolutions. Thank you so much.
This has been such a treat I that our listeners
(45:01):
are going to really enjoy hearing from you. Well, I
I thank you for having me on. I'm so glad
that I got to meet with you and speak to you.
I am too really cool. Thank you you have been
listening to VS Voices. My thanks to today's guest Laura
wasa If you love our show, please comment, like, and
subscribe to wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, and
(45:24):
as always, please follow me Amanditycadenet on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
Thank you so much for listening. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
(45:45):
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue and raise the game.
My conversation today is with a true trailblazer. She is
the type of person that you hope you never have
to use, but if you had to, you'd be relieved
to know that she's on your side. I'm talking about
the big time divorce attorney, Laura Wasser. Laura is considered
among the most important legal voices in the United States
and has guided so many high profile clients through what
(00:21):
can be one of the messiest moments of their lives, divorce.
Maybe some of you have been through one, I know
I have. Some of the celebrities that Laura has represented
include Angelina Jolie, Chris Jenna, Johnny Depp. Laura has written books,
she serves on numerous boards, hosts her own podcasts, and
started an online divorce service that helps people handle amicable
(00:42):
divorces with less professional help. I could go on and
on about Laura, but I want you to listen to
this interview. I'm really excited to share it with you.
Let's get right to it. So, you handle a lot
of very well known clients when they're going through a divorce.
What is the first thing you say to someone when
they contact you? Well, I don't usually speak with them first,
(01:05):
my assistant does. We've got like a really good kind
of screening system so that in the event both people
were to call or we had spoken to one like
years ago or maybe even represented one years ago, and
the other one called. So usually it's my assistant Vicky,
and she does what we call like an intake call,
and she gets some information from them about how long
they've been married, whether they've got children, what the issues are, um,
(01:30):
if we know who's representing their spouse. First she'll just
check who their spouses and make sure there's no conflict.
And once she gets kind of that intake information, then
she'll pass it on to me and will decide whether
it makes sense. We'll see if there is a conflict.
And then usually still she'll schedule an appointment or a call.
And so then the first thing I say is usually
(01:51):
what's going on? I mean they you know, it's you
walk a thin line as the family law attorney because
you want to have compassion obviously. I mean, it's the
one kind of a lawsuit that you'll be in where
these people are going to have to move on and
see each other if they've got kids, you know, in
the future. It's not like you know, slip and fall
(02:11):
or a landlord tenant where you're like, I'm never going
to see them again, So you want to handle it
the right way. You want to kind of encourage them
to be reasonable because it will save them money and
and toxicity and aggravation. So and they also need to
tell their story. So I let them speak for a
while because I want to hear what's going on and
even just how they relay the information. If they lead
(02:33):
with he fucking cheated on me and he's horrible and
whatever else, we know we have somebody that's hurt and angry,
and how are we gonna do with that? If they're
very kind of like we have ten million dollars and
you know the majority of it was a crew during
our marriage, then I'm like, okay, they're all business. We're
going to divide money. It's community property. So I want
to hear their take on it. And then usually I'll
(02:54):
give them kind of a family law one oh one
type of a spiel, because most of the time people
are coming to get formation. They want education because they're
scared and they want to see what it's going to
look like as they move through it. And at the
end and that's why they come. And then they also
want to see I guess if they've got to report
with me and the other members of my firm. Yeah,
And different lawyers are known for different things, right, I mean,
(03:17):
obviously there are people who are known for being contentious.
Whenever my friends call me and they are thinking about
getting divorced, I will say, stay away unless you want
a contentious divorce. Their way from this person. Speak to
that person, because people are known for settling fast, or
drawing things out or really playing dirty. So interesting that
(03:38):
you listen to their story and then work out what
kind of what what approach you're going to take, right,
if indeed you're even going to work with them, How
do you decide how you're going to work with people? Actually,
Vicky decided a lot of that. Like she'll put on
her notes like, you know, fifty million dollars, you know,
wife cheated on him, angry but reasonable or you know,
but sometimes at the end she'll write runaway or no,
(04:01):
I don't think had the crazy And usually she can
screen those out pretty well. But if she can't, then
I'll have a call and I'll usually figure it out. Um,
you know, there's been a big upswing in allegations of
domestic violence over the last ten years. And you know,
obviously those are very important cases. But unless there's something
(04:22):
that I see to be, you know, really genuine, I
probably will pass. I just I feel like they're too
often being kind of used as a sword instead of
actually doing good. And we're family law attorneys, were not
criminal attorneys, were not you know, there are people that
specialize in that. So that's one thing I'll usually say,
maybe this isn't a good fit. If somebody comes in
(04:43):
with complusion, I hate that we're not a good fit.
That's my least favorite thing to hear. Oh I know,
I probably would say, oh, just, I'm not a good
fit for you. How's that? You know? Sometimes most of
the time they're open to hearing what I have to say.
If they come in a they're like, I'm the mom,
I want full custody, I get the house. He cheated
(05:04):
on me, he's an asshole. I'm like, okay, here's how
the law works. And you don't just get the kids
because you're the mom. And he can be an asshole
as a spouse, but he's not necessarily an asshole as
a dad. And are you willing to come around to
my way of thinking, because that's probably how it's gonna
end up. And if she's like no, then I'll say,
I know you hate this, not a good fit, like
(05:24):
let me, let me send you to somebody else. You
hear so often about cases going horribly a wall, and
you you look at the facts and you're like, how
is this possible? California law maintains that it's fifty fifty
whatever it was earned in the relationship, you split down
the middle. There's no debating that. And yet I've spoken
to so many people who say, well, you know I
(05:46):
got I didn't get that, And I'm like, well, how
is that possible? In California? Sometimes it goes that way
because people are actually misinformed. If you marry a multimillion
dollar rock star, but he made his multimillion dollars before
he met you, he didn't make them during the course
of the relationship. He may not be obligated to pay
you that much. In the end. There might have been
a prenup um, there might have been other extenuating circumstances
(06:10):
that lead to a different outcome than what somebody would
have thought. But the best answer I can give you
is that likely when things go on and on and
on like that and really get dragged out, it's because
the attorneys have probably done some kind of a disservice
to one client to the other and not given them
realistic expectations at the outset. Because there's so many times
(06:30):
that I see a case where I'm like, this is
how it's gonna end up. The only variable here is
how much I'm gonna get paid, how much the other
lawyer is gonna get paid, and how angry the two
of you are going to get in the process. Because
this is how it's going to end up. And by
the way, when I represent the spouse, which I most
of the time do, who has who is the greater
(06:50):
earner or a greater asset holder, whether it's the man
or the woman, I will generally say to that person,
here's how it's gonna end up, and here's what I
think you should do. You should may can offer of
this plus a little extra, and here's why, because if
we don't settle, then you're gonna pay that little extra
to me and the other lawyer, and in aggravation, let's
(07:10):
just give it to your spouse now. And if we
come back around a year later and we're still arguing.
We're still fighting. You can say, remember this day in
May of two when I offered you this, and look
where we are now. And may not make you feel better,
and it won't get you the money back, but at
least this is a business transaction. And like what you
(07:31):
said before about you know, California is a no fault
and it's not his or her fault. It is his
or her fault. They're an asshole, there's no question about that,
but not according not in the eyes of the law,
for cheating on you. But the law is like, yeah,
and that should not affect that paternal rights or whatever. Correct,
So you deal with that part of it in therapy
(07:51):
or with your support system and your friends and all that,
but not within the legal system where all that's gonna
happen is that big bills are going to get generated.
And again, there's plenty of people in southern California Hi
practice that can absolutely afford to pay divorce attorneys, you know,
thousands of dollars per hour. But the majority of this
country is not in that situation. And if you think
(08:13):
about the fact that half of the marriages in this
country end in divorce. Then you have to imagine that
there has to be a more cost effective way of
doing this, not just cost financially, but cost to your psyche.
And that's that's why we create it's over easy, which
is now divorced dot Com to be able to go
online learn about it even if you're not having a consultation.
(08:35):
Educate yourself, get the forms, figure out what you need
and effectuate some kind of an agreement with your spouse
without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, I mean,
I honestly wonder why there's two things that I think
should be taught in schools to all kids, financial literacy
and marriage and divorce. Anything to do with legal contracts.
(08:58):
We're just not taught about it until it's too far
down the line. So you say that you're not a
therapist to your clients, but you're dealing with people at
them most vulnerable. So and Vicky is right. So Vicky's
like your work wife. I can tell. So, how do
you manage people's elevated emotions? I try. I'm like, look,
(09:20):
I do commiserate. We've all been there. You know, We've
had a messy breakup. I've worried about are my kids
gonna be Okay, I've worried about am I gonna be
able to afford private school or my mortgage or whatever.
I get it. It doesn't serve you to have me
at my hourly rate commiserating or offering like, you know, helpful,
like go girl whatever. I mean, I'm there, I'll do it.
(09:42):
But really, let's focus on the law, and let's apply
it to the facts of your situation, and let's make
a good deal for you. Let's get you out of this.
And I try to say that in a reasonable way
that still has some compassion, and most of the time
they get it, and they appreciate it, because I have
seen other attorneys who all of a sudden become like
besties with the person and and they're charging them to
hear about like their first date on bumble or something.
(10:05):
And I think that's not really I think it's unethical
to do that. Do you ever have clients that challenge
your moral compass? I suppose. I mean, again, my line
of work is relatively cut and dry. If somebody came
to me and said, look, I've got a bank account
in the Cayman Islands and I don't want to tell
her about it. I'd be like, too bad, we have
to tell her there's a full disclosure in the state.
(10:26):
I'm not getting dragged into this. I mean, you know,
I have clients that you know, usually it's custody where
somebody may not be the greatest parent. And what I'll
say is, listen, if we're really fighting for custody. What
I would do if I were used, so that you're
really equipped when we win, is go take a couple
of parenting classes so that you understand how to do this.
I mean, that's you know, nobody. I would not sacrifice,
(10:49):
not only myself or my entire firm. I'm the managing
partner of a sixteen person firm for for somebody that
wanted to like lie or do something that was you know,
unethical legally. But there's a there is gray area in
terms of like, are we really fighting for this person
to get custody when we know he or she isn't equipped.
I mean, I more mean, have you ever represented someone
(11:10):
who as you get into the case, they turn out
to be someone that they did not present themselves to be.
Where you're going, Oh, okay, I went into this thinking
this person was a certain way based on my conversations
with them. But actually this information is coming to light
that maybe they there's some things they didn't tell me,
(11:30):
and now I'm in this case. Has that ever happened
to you? Yeah? But it doesn't necessarily matter. I mean,
so what am I going to find out? I'm going
to find out that they actually had multiple affairs. It
doesn't matter me. I don't need to like them or
what am I going to find out? Like if I
found out that they were abusive or that they like
had a drug. I mean, none of it really affects
my representation of them. And remember, I don't need to
(11:53):
like them, right interesting? Wow, you see that's that's fascinating
to me that you you have represented people that you
don't necessarily like, but you are upholding the law and
you are moving forward despite your personal feelings. That's it's
like now again different for maybe a criminal defense attorney.
(12:14):
I think that would be harder. I have friends that
are criminal defense aturnays. I'm like, you know, he's guilty
and you're still representing him. But thankfully I don't have
that ethical quandary. I just apply the law. You can
be a total douche. You're still gonna get spousal support
from your wife if she makes more money than you. Right, Okay,
So you grew up with two parents who were lawyers. Yeah,
(12:36):
so you knew it was possible for you as a
woman to be a lawyer. They how old were you
when they got divorced. I was sixteen and I was
a boarding school in Switzerland. I already thought I knew everything,
so it did not affect me that much. But just
to back up, not only did I know it was
possible for me to be a lawyer, I was doing
everything to avoid it. They named me lay Roster so
(12:57):
that my initials are law like. They just pushed it
so appointed you, yes, And I was like, there, I'm
never doing that. And then of course, here I am,
so isn't that that happened so often? Where you're like, oh,
I said I would never be like that my parents
and that capacity, And here I am, So you said
your parents divorced did not really affect you? Why did
(13:18):
it not really affect you? I? You know, having grown
up here in l A by the time I was fourteen,
I thought I was like fully formed. I now know
that I wasn't. But by sixteen I was living abroad.
I had kind of seen the world. I was one
ft out the door. Um, anything that would have I mean,
I didn't grow up in two homes. I and my
(13:38):
parents also were the most amazing examples of civility and
respect and post dissolution love for each other. So I mean,
you know that was possible too, Yes, And that's definitely
affected how I've had relationships with men and the fathers
of my children and all that. All this amicable kind
of co parenting stuff comes rather easily to me because
(13:59):
I watched my errants do it. Um, So you know,
to say it didn't affect me, of course, everything affects one.
I get that, But I was It wasn't like I
was going back and forth to to two different homes
when I was growing up. I was already kind of
out of the home by the time that this happened.
So your parents had more of a kind of conscious uncoupling. Totally. Wow,
(14:20):
I'm always so impressed. I am the product of a
very very messy divorce as a child, and then I
got divorced. I was first married at age seventeen, and
um divorced at twenty two, and now I've been married
for twenty years, so I've had the experience of two
divorces and you know, and a long term marriage touch wood,
(14:44):
so as it makes. I mean, look, we only learned
from our experiences and what you went through with your parents.
I mean, it's exactly the reason that I do what
I do, not so much at the firm, which is
a job, and I still teach the younger associates and
partners there how to do it this way. But with
divorce dot com too, we have to move that needle
so that people in our kids generation grow up. And look,
(15:07):
I don't wish divorce on anybody, but let's be realistic.
It's happening, and when it does, we have to be
able to do it better than how our parents did it.
Not mine, they knew what they were doing. But for
the most part, people in our generation, if their parents
got divorced, it wasn't pretty. They did not have any tools. Yeah,
and we have tools and we have ways to do it.
(15:28):
And so I do I feel the needle is moving slowly,
but I do think it's moving and we just have
to be better about it for our kids sakes. Yeah,
very much. So. So you are married for a little
over a year when you were in your twenties, how
would you do marriage differently today? Completely? I mean, you know,
even the relationships that I've had since then, the fathers
(15:49):
of both of my sons, and other long term relationships
that I've been in, I just come to them with
so much more knowledge, so much more respect, and as
you said, tools and the communication is so key in
being able to have extended relationships and and and make
sure that you're properly getting information back and forth. I
(16:12):
just think that that's definitely what I would do in
a marriage, or, like I said, in a long term
monogamous relationship. As a lawyer, I can imagine you're extremely
adept at listening, at mirroring back what you're hearing about,
clarifying when you're confused, or making sure that the other
person understands what you're saying. But I am wondering if
(16:34):
in your own personal relationships, because you're around conflict because
of your job, are you conflict avoidant in any way
in your own life? Definitely? I definitely think so. I
picked my battles um and I try to be as
thoughtful and eloquent as I can, but obviously when it's personal,
(16:55):
it comes out differently, But yes, I mean I don't
like it's funny. Most of the long term relationships I've
had have said to me, like, you know, you know,
we never argue, And I said, that's because I pretty
much say right from the beginning if there's an issue.
But I don't have big arguments usually because again I
have learned in relationships to bring something up. I don't
(17:15):
harbor lots of resentment. I will admit that that there
have been a few relationships that I've had, both romantic
and not, where I've let things go for too long
because I was conflict avoidant, and then the resentment built
up so much and then the ship at sail I
was done. There was no getting back into it. But
but more generally speaking, I think if you learn those
tools early on, which is why I suggest that couples
(17:38):
that are about to get married or that are talking
about prenuptial agreements go to some kind of counseling before
they get married. I say that too, That's what I
tell everybody when they think of getting married. I say,
get into couples counseling now, so that you've got the
language and the tools when stuff starts to go, you know,
feel uncomfortable, so that you're not jumping in in a crisis.
(18:00):
You've already built that muscle. Yes, do you find it
hard to find partners who are equals to you? I
mean financially speaking in every capacity, emotionally, financially, just someone
who's an equal partner. Yes, I suppose so. I mean again,
I think everybody brings different things to the table um.
(18:22):
But yes, as I've gotten older, it has been I
mean maybe I'm a little bit more picky. It's just
it hasn't been quite as simple as just like falling
into something with somebody, and like we've it's not just baggage,
it's experienced, it's family members good and bad that we
have at you know, after a certain amount of years.
And so it does make it a little bit more
(18:42):
difficult to easily kind of entwined with somebody. Yeah. Have
you ever been on a dating app? No? I'm so
curious how that would be for you, Like how you
would fill out your profile? M me too. Somebody asked
me the other day or something about a profile and
I was like, what's what profile? And they're like for
your data up? And I was like, I've never been
on one I mean I've been very lucky. I've been
(19:04):
always able to meet people through friends and whatever else.
But I don't, you know, probably be a good self
reflective thing to fill out a dating app profile just
to see what I'd say. Yeah, I'm always really curious,
Like I've been married for so long, but I'm really
curious what kind of person I would get matched with
if I filled one of those out. So, as a lawyer,
(19:25):
you've obviously seen some pretty bad behavior um in your
years as a divorce attorney. As a mom to two sons,
do you feel inclined to educate them about marriage based
on what you've seen? Yes, I mean they're young. My
oldest just turned seventeen, and they also just because they've
been driving in cars with me for you know, their
(19:47):
entire lives. Not only are they masters of profanity, but
they also know a bit about there are usually more
interested in things like child custody, like well, what how
old was that little boy that you were talking about?
And is he going to be able to see his dad?
I mean, they can't help not hearing it, and they
it's foreign to them. Just in terms of like my
exes and I have never had any kind of written
(20:09):
anything between us in terms of finances or anything. We've
always worked it out. We have schedules that, like I'll
usually put together at the beginning of the year and
then by about you know, March, we've strayed from them
because the kids just go back and forth, and everybody's
always at everybody's house, mostly mine because I have all
the food. But um, and that goes for their dads too.
Lots of food, lots of eating happening. But do you
(20:30):
have both dads? Have you had both dads over at
the same time? Oh yeah, yeah, Wow, this is impressive.
I have to say, well, look, I have not only
a lot of experience with this, but they probably also
have a bit of trepidation about maybe not not working
out so well. So everybody's very motivated to make it.
(20:53):
I like that everyone's very motivated. I like your choice
of woods that I actually saw that you joked in
an interview that you don't want to remarry and that
you're just an old hippie procreating with anyone that comes along,
which I figured you must have said a long time ago.
But right, it's like one of those quotes that follows
you around wonder and when he was interviewing me for
(21:14):
Interview magazine. But he still teases me about it. I
can't even believe I said that. He was like, you're
an old hippie because I wasn't old then now I'm
old and now I can't procreate. Probably, so yeah, So
would do you believe in the institution of marriage today?
In two? Not for me, but for others? Sure? Why
not for you? I don't think that I'm interested in
(21:39):
having the state play a part in my personal or
financial affairs. I mean, as it is, I've got kids,
so the state's going to play a part in that
a bit. But we've never invited the state into it because,
as I said, none of our things are kind of
reduced to writing. And by the way, I do not
recommend this. I want to go on record and saying
that is it is not the right way to do it.
(22:00):
We can do it because I know the INDs and
the outs of the law, but for most people, I mean,
we do a visitation with your kids, yes, it's it's
And for financial matters, it's important to have things reduced
to writing, and it's important to have court orders and
and very few exceptions to that existing as a lawyer,
I wholeheartedly encouraged people to have things reduced to writing
so that there's no question later on or whatever else.
(22:22):
But but for the most part, um, I just feel
like I mean, I had a wedding and it was beautiful.
It was at the Hotel bel Air, and I was
twenty five years old. The pictures are still gorgeous. I
don't think I could do better than that. I can't.
It's not so much why don't I believe in it?
It's what's the reason that would make sense for me?
And I can't think of one. I mean, personally, I
(22:43):
feel like there needs to be an update of what
marriage means, and it's down to two individuals to ideate
that and to agree with that. But I think it
is obviously a huge commitment because you can get into
it and then all right, it takes a lot to
get out of it. Yes, absolutely, and that's the part
(23:03):
that people aren't really educated about. And why I love
that you have it's divorce dot com. Now, Yes, that's
a great time. Obviously, that's the best U r L.
How long were you waiting for that one? I didn't
buy it. The people that own divorce dot Com waited
a long time, and I'm pretty sure paid quite a bit,
and then they began to roll the rest of us up.
(23:25):
I knew them at the time, but yes, and they
waited a long time, and it's it's great and my, my, my,
My title there is Chief of Divorce Evolution, So it's
code which I like and so um. I not only
am I kind of the face of it, but I
also am the one person there that has practiced family
(23:45):
law and can kind of give them, you know, at
least in most of the states, I have an understanding
of how the law works because we are nationwide, and
it really is, I think, such a great tool for
people that are at a point where they just they
don't want to start completely burning the house down, so
to speak. With the divorce. Do you think that divorce
practices need to evolve? Yeah, and I have to say
(24:08):
that over the last ten years, I haven't necessarily seen
them evolve in the right direction, which is also why
I'm such a big proponent of the do it yourself model.
And some of my colleagues have said, aren't you totally
cannibalizing us? And I'm like, no, because there's always going
to be people that have complicated, complex divorces, Like you
were saying, how could it go so wrong? Isn't it
cut and dry? But let's say I have a corporation
(24:31):
and I owned it before where I started it, before
we got married, and then when I was married, I
worked at it and it really really increased in value.
So there's like a hybrid of community property and separate property.
Or there's a I create a television show and it's
a big hit, and then I get married and they
have a sequel spin off, and so what royalties and
residuals from what kind of you know, the shows and
(24:51):
the packaging there. There are complicated ones, but for the
most part, it's pretty simple. And yet people get so conflicted,
and it's such a great way to earn a dollar
off of somebody else's pain and fear and confusion, and
that bothers me and I feel like it wasn't like
that quite as much when I started practicing. I think
(25:12):
COVID and uncertainty, and you know, the twenty four hour
news cycle has made it so much easier for people
that may not have the best intentions to really make
a lot of money off of other people's misery. And
I don't. I don't like that. That doesn't sit well
with me. How have you handled You said that over
(25:33):
the last ten years you've seen an uptick in domestic
violence cases. Have you also seen an uptick in sexual
assault cases with the birth of the Me too movement?
Because I have a lot of female friends who were
the who experienced sexual assault, and then I've also had
men who were falsely accused. So I mean, I hear
(25:55):
stories on both sides of it. But I'm wondering if
in the cases that you're king on, if you've seen
and not taken those kinds of cases as well. Not
so much. In my cases, it's more violence than sexual abuse,
because again, I think people don't necessarily understand that you
can rape your spouse. Espousal abuse and spouse rape is
a very real thing. We don't hear about it as
(26:17):
much because they're already getting divorced and they probably have
abuse claims there. Um. So no, I mean, I hear
about it because I've live in the world and I've
seen what's going on. And I have to say, one
of the things that like enrages anymore than anything is
false accusations. Not so much because oh, these poor and
and I guess there could be accusations against women that
are false too. So there's this poor person that's being
(26:39):
you know, accused. How could this happen? Yes, that's awful,
But what's worse is that it's taking the court time
and the attention away from real victims of domestic violence
and that and usually they're the ones that don't get
the attention. They don't have the financial abilities or the
linguistic It's a lot of people where English isn't their
first language, and they're kind of getting shoved out of
(27:01):
the system because some of the people who might have
more interesting stories or more money or more celebrity are
coming forward and taking just gobs of time and court
rooms with these allegations. And it's it's a very big problem. Yeah,
And if they even make it to court, a lot
of the cases are just the court of public opinion.
(27:22):
There is no due process whatsoever. And those are the
ones that I some of them, some of those ones
I've been really challenged by because they're never going to
make it to court. Um. Speaking of which, I saw
that you got deposed in the Johnny Amber case, and
I'm sorry that you got deposed. That is a case
that is monopolizing all media at the moment, and it
(27:48):
really dis reminded me how people are obsessed with celebrity
crisis obsessed And you've been at the center of any
of those high profile divorce prices, And what is the
biggest difference between a regular divorce with you know, Jane
(28:09):
Doe and a celebrity divorce. There's only one or two Frankly,
I mean, there's so much more the same. Whether you're
like thinking, oh god, you know who's gonna walk the
red carpet with me? Or oh God, who's going to
go to the company Christmas party with me? And the
you know what city church, those things remain the same.
(28:29):
The dollars, you know, may have more zeros at the
end of them for celebrities, But the biggest difference is
the press. You know, you are under a microscope. The
shot and freud is amazing. The public wants to know.
And then you know, for the most part, celebrity couples
these days want to keep it on the d l
especially if they have kids, They really want to keep
(28:50):
it quiet. Everybody is kind of following the conscious uncoupling model,
and even if they don't get along so well, they
smile and say they get along well, because that's kind
of the norm. Frankly, I think it's a good thing.
Fake it till you make it, to make nice. Don't
give the tabloids anything to talk about. So that when
your kids in line at the grocery store with the nanny,
he doesn't see you on the newsstand with your face
I'll squinched up saying something horrible about his dad. That's fine, um,
(29:15):
But I think that sometimes you have individuals that use
it to their benefit, whether it's just their their celebrity
gets you know, driven up because they've made a messy
situation or the threat of well you everybody loves you,
and I'm going to turn this into something bad if
you don't pay me this or let me have this
custody situation or whatever it is. So again, you are
(29:38):
at the risk of being taken advantage of if you
are in the public eye, because you, I guess, need
to care what the public thinks about you. And so
that's a that's a scary thing because of exactly what
you said. Are our culture, because it's certainly not just
the United States, is so absolutely enamored and driven by
I can't believe how many people are watching that trial.
It's amazing to me. I mean the people that reached
(30:00):
out to me after the deposition took place in December
of and I think and it must have said it
across the bottom of the screen, and yet and there
was Christmas decorations in the background, and yet people were like,
how is Virginia? Are you enjoyed? And I'm like, I'm
not in Virginia. That was two years ago. So yeah,
I think I think people are watching. I'm befuddled as
(30:21):
to why it's so interesting, but I think that it
is something that we really do. And and this it
wasn't like that before the advent of TMZ and Radar
online and these social media constantly social media, it wasn't
like that. Yes there were pr people, and yes there
was crisis control and we had to keep things quiet,
but it wasn't so immediate. And frankly, they were a
(30:44):
little bit more careful back then, because they wouldn't just
put something up if they didn't fact check and make
sure it was true. And now, because it moves so quickly,
they are not as careful as they were in the past,
and that can be really problematic. For somebody who's life
is kind of in the balance, Bay has done their
reputation or their public persona. And you know, quite frankly,
(31:05):
with that case, the the amount of intimate personal details
that only the people who were in that relationship should
know about that are now made public. I don't think
we've ever seen a case with this level of exposure
on a personal, deeply intimate level, and I hope it's
not a precedent for what can happen in the future. Now.
(31:30):
And by the way, the choice of that that case
being broadcast live, you know, one party wanted it broadcast
live and the other one didn't. And it can also
be used to someone's advantage or disadvantage. The fact that,
again the court of public opinion is so powerful today
that you cannot escape it. You just cannot, even when
(31:52):
something a case is being tried in the courtroom. The
fact that everybody has an opinion on it, that the
court of public opinion has almost taken over. It doesn't matter,
It will matter what the end result is, of course,
but the public opinion is the one that dictates whether
that person is going to be hired again, whether they're
going to be what kind of relationship, like it's just
(32:13):
dictating that what their life will look like moving forward,
and it should not have that amount of power. Also
probably true. Oh my gosh, Okay, you were listening to
VS voices. Stick around and we'll be right back after
this short break. How was your dad's practice different to
(32:36):
how yours is today. Well, he's male, and so I
think he did far less custody than I do. He
had a different way of doing things. He was always
very settlement oriented. I did learn that from him, and
that's kind of the thrust of how our firm functions.
But he um probably did more litigation. I think at
(32:58):
the time it was less cost prohibitive to actually get
into a courtroom and try a case. I just finished
a six day trial downtown at Los Angeles Superior Court,
and I mean it was it was brutal, and you know,
people are still wearing masks and they're just getting those days.
It took probably six years to work up to this.
I mean, you're talking about a kid who was you know,
(33:20):
he's just turning seven, and so, I mean, I feel
like it was just a different time back then. I
think the core values that my dad brought and brings
to the practice were similar, although, like I said, he's
a dude, so I and the clientele and the clientele
is similar, right, because he represented a lot of high
profile people as well. Yes, yes, he was kind of
(33:42):
the guy back then and they would call him. He
definitely represented more men though, like it was very clear
that he was like the guys, and I definitely do
very much both. Um, we both on. Our firm generally
takes them the breadwinner or the more moneyed spe house.
That just seems to be how it turns out, which
(34:02):
for me is a benefit because that's usually the more
business minded person. And I enjoy working for somebody who
wants to be reasonable and considers this a financial settlement
and is listening to what I say, Like I said before,
like I know how this is going to end up.
Now take another X amount of dollars and put it
in the pot, because that's what we should do to
get it settled. Um. But again, he's a guy like
(34:24):
I remember once when I was young, he when I
was a young attorney, I had a client who had
a child already with his wife and they're in the
process of getting divorced, and as sometimes happens, they ended
up sleeping together again, and a couple of months later,
my client came in and said, I don't know what
to do. She's pregnant. Wow. The fact that in Roe v.
(34:46):
Wade can be overthrown is nothing less than shocking and
abysmal and will put women's rights back centuries and right
now we're just trying to work out whether they can
actually happen or not. Today abortion is still legal in
a multitude of states, but who knows. This is a
(35:06):
very short window that we have to actually work at
what can be done well and you and this is
the time more than ever where we really have to
get out and vote in our state primaries, which most
people don't you know, usually do, and really focus on
what's happening in our state. I mean, not so much
California turning, but is California going to be willing to
be a sovereign state? Are we going to be willing
to take up some of the excess from the other
(35:29):
states that aren't Things that we didn't have to think
about before we have to think about now. And it's
it's unfortunate, frankly, and it's scary for I was just saying,
like the youth, you know, we need to do divorce
better for the youth. Thankfully I have two boys, but
still they're going to have relationships with young women, and
we need to make sure that there's a safe place
for people to go. I watched an interview this morning
(35:51):
with Gloria Steinham and Katie Kirk, and they were asking
Gloria what she thought, and she's just I mean, all
of her work now, you know, going working up to
this and seeing what's happening right now. Can you imagine
how she must feel. I'd love to know who the
voices are that you well. My mom was. She passed
to it a couple of years ago. She was hugely
inspirational to me. She embodied everything that I think, what
(36:15):
you why you decided to do this podcast. She was
beautiful inside and now, but she was strong, and she
was wise, and she was also a real woman's woman.
Like you know, we talked about how you we want
to bring women under our wing and bring them up
and whatever, but so often I see that women don't
actually do that, and we may be worse at it
(36:37):
than some of our male counterparts. In terms of mentoring
and really teaching the younger generation. My mom was great,
like that she never had a moment that I was
able to ascertain of jealousy about me or my girlfriend's
being younger or a teen. She she aged with grace.
She was the consummate cheerleader for me. She was able
(36:58):
to treat young and old and rich and poor and
beautiful and not so esthetically pleasing with the most respect.
And her voice was one that I still hear every day,
because you know, I'm still miss her terribly. But she
was one. And then, you know, you have the you
have the glorious, you have the eleanor Roosevelt. You have
(37:18):
the people who were really willing to effectuate change, even
if it wasn't maybe the most attractive or palatable thing
in the moment. And you know, I I respect that,
you know, being a divorce lawyer. It's not exactly like
I'm curing cancer or you know, doing brain surgery. It's
something small, but I feel like, really, as I said earlier,
(37:41):
moving the needle, changing people's lives, helping with transitions and
next chapters. You know, it's it's a good job if
you can get it. I don't think it is. I
think it's actually a very one of the most significant
times in someone's life that you have a very heavy
hand in dictateing and helping shape how that's going to be.
(38:03):
And having been the product of a divorce that was atrocious,
you know, and and again largely down to the way
I think my parents, you know, were uneducated and were
guided by their lawyers. So I think you have a
huge responsibility and the impact on kids lives, and it's
(38:24):
it's you know, it's a really serious thing. Yes it's
not you know, brain cancer, but it is still incredibly serious.
So who who are the female role models that are
living today outside of Gloria that you admire. I really
admire Jane Bonda. I think she's wonderful. I think she
really encapsulates, you know, wisdom and rebellion and political awareness
(38:50):
and also femininity, which I think is you know, so
often were you have to pick one or the other.
But the idea that I looked, you know, chic and
a active to somebody while at the same time like
doing a job and being serious and hopefully it's somewhat
respected by the judicial officer before whom I was appearing.
That that means a lot um. By the way, Jane
(39:12):
Fonda is one of my all time favorite interviews that
I've ever done. She talks about marriage and divorce quite
a lot, actually, and her divorce from Ted Turner. We
talked about that quite extensively. Um. You know, it's interesting
you were talking about women supporting women and that your
mom um, you know, was an incredible role model for you,
(39:33):
and I was thinking about how it is quite sad
that we don't have more role models that truly role
model what it looks like to mentor other women, because
I think there is still a scarcity mindset. Women have
not been doing your job or even my job. Look
how many women you know host their own shows like two?
(39:54):
You know, it's terrible, And I think women have not
been in the workforce in areas that we're in for
that long, and there is still a scarcity mindset of like, oh,
if there's more women in the room, maybe I'm gonna
lose something. I'm not saying I necessarily have that you
have that, but a lot of women do, and that
prohibits them from freely sharing their experience or mentoring anybody.
(40:17):
And I very strongly believe in mentorship. I I've had
so many women mentor me and men as well, and
I would not be the person I am today without mentorship.
I agree, And I feel like it's not just the
matter of like who's the best woman in the room,
but the idea of, like I had to clon scratch
my way to the top, and you have to do
it too, know we the reason and by the way,
(40:38):
I didn't, I was very lucky. But you know, somebody
else clauded their way up. I kind of, maybe more
gracefully climbed my way up. And whoever else is gonna come,
I'm gonna give them a hand coming up, because that's
what we want, is for it to be easier to
ascend to a certain level and then being able to
bring other people up to that level. And so really
(40:59):
the idea of, like you said, mentorship male and females,
but particularly females, really being able to help other women
do well in whatever you do well and whether that's
you know, whether that's hosting it to a show, or
whether it's being an attorney, or whether it's speaking at
certain engagements, giving people that sense of empowerment super important.
(41:19):
As Gloria Steinem says, we are linked, we are not ranked, yes,
which I love. Okay, So you being the top notch
divorce attorney that you are, I feel like I want
to ask you some basic questions for our audience who
are listening. What are your top three tips before marriage
(41:42):
and your top three to successfully divorce? And I know
that you have a lot of this on you're on
divorce dot com, but I'm just curious for anyone listening. Alright,
So top three tips going into a marriage. One, get
munication tools like you said earlier, figure out how to
(42:03):
communicate well and problem solve while things are still good. Two. Uh,
don't abdicate financial responsibility to your spouse, whether he has
more or less money or earning capacity than you do.
Both of you, if you're going to be partners, should
take part in decision making and investments. And if you've
(42:25):
got a business manager that you meet with quarterly, go
to those meetings. UM, have your own credit card. So
many women in their sixties come to me, the most sophisticated,
well dressed could get a table at any restaurant in
l A. They don't even have their own credit card,
have established credit, have your own credit and then you know,
the third really is make sure you see the other
(42:48):
person's perspective. UM, you know, as you're in an argument
or as you're doing things in your relationship, as you're
getting ready for it, see how he or she feels
about things or how you would see it from their perspective.
It really helps in terms of battling resentment or even
conflict diversion, figuring out weighs like what do I think
(43:11):
he thinks about this? I think that's important. And then
for the divorce, the communication part is still really true.
I say to people so often, nobody knows your spouse
better than you. You want me to get in here,
write a letter to his or her lawyer that's going
to cost this much. Then the letter goes to them.
It's like a game of telephone. To the extent you can,
and to the extent that you can do it reasonably
and civilly reach out say look, this is really important
(43:35):
to me. Can we resolve this part of it? Or
what do you think about this? And if it doesn't
work because you just can't communicate at this tape at
this time and place, maybe figure out a way that
everybody gets in the room, or maybe we do some
mediation back and forth or something like that. So communication
is still really important. Remember that this is a person
that you're probably gonna know for the rest of your
(43:55):
life if you've got kids, so don't burn too many bridgetes.
It's okay if you're getting divorce, it's gonna be shitty
and you're gonna say some things, but try not to
get too bad. And then the third is be kind. Yeah,
we're so much kinder to the fucking strangers that we
don't even know on the street or in the elevator
than we are to our own loved ones, particularly someone
who at some point you looked into their eyes and
(44:17):
said I do, or held onto their hand while you
were on the delivery room table or whatever else. Figure
out what it was that you loved about this person
and trying to hang onto it as you go through
this difficult time. Don't transfer all that love and admiration
and respect to somebody that you're paying by the hour.
It's you, guys in this. You got into it, you
guys get out of it. Let us be your spirit
(44:37):
guides and help you. But don't assign too much power
to a person or or love to a person that
you're paying and that's making money from your conflict. Wow,
Laura was the spirit guide of dissolutions. Thank you so much.
This has been such a treat I that our listeners
(45:01):
are going to really enjoy hearing from you. Well, I
I thank you for having me on. I'm so glad
that I got to meet with you and speak to you.
I am too really cool. Thank you you have been
listening to VS Voices. My thanks to today's guest Laura
wasa If you love our show, please comment, like, and
subscribe to wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, and
(45:24):
as always, please follow me Amanditycadenet on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
Thank you so much for listening. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
(45:45):
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue and raise the game.
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