October 20, 2021 • 44 mins
Designer and breast cancer awareness advocate Stella McCartney speaks to host Amanda de Cadenet about everything from the fashion industry and growing up in the spotlight to the war against body hair, and much more.
Through conversations around her childhood, personal parenting techniques, and mission to protect the planet, McCartney gives us an in-depth glimpse into her life and career.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to VS Voices. I'm a Mandate Acadney. In this episode,
I speak with designer and activist Stella McCartney about long
term marriage and parenting, what it's like building a truly
sustainable brand, and how the loss of her mother from
breast cancer inspired her work with Stella cares all right,
let's go, come on a mad it's by the way.
(00:25):
I love you and I miss It's so nice to
see and you're great, So nice to see you. Full
transparency that we know each other for many many years
since we are young people. Um, and so I definitely
have a biased opinion of Stella of you because I've
known you a very long time and I just love
(00:46):
and adore you. Likewise got your sister. Yeah, yeah, we
haven't got history, we really do. I was thinking about
the first time I remember seeing you as an adult,
and it was in Dean Street and you were about
to do your first show for St. Martin's and I
(01:06):
was talking to you and you said, yeah, I'm I've
got I'm showing these slips. I've got slips from Portobello
Market and I'm redoing them and my girlfriends are gonna
wear them. And that's I'm going to do a mix
of that and light suits. And I was like, oh
my god, that's perfect. Stella is going to take the
slip look and turn it into her own gorgeous thing.
And I never got one of those slips, but I
(01:27):
remember that show very well. I like the way that
I just said, some of my friends are going to
model it, And it happened to be Naomi Campbell, Kate
moss Yasmin who else. It was all those amazing girls
so understated. My god, all those amazing girls. You know what.
She's funny. Kate found one of those in a vintage
store the other day and she bought your kids the
(01:49):
one that she wore. She was like, I had to
buy it because I wore it. Oh my god. That
is so I still have to say, it's all coming
back now, babe. Wow. So um, you are one of
the most grounded people that I know, especially you are.
You're one of the most grounded famous people that I know.
(02:11):
And it's true, and I'm wondering what you would attribute
your ability to stay so right size too, is it?
Do you think it was to do with your childhood
and how you grow up? Well, I'll take that as
a really big compliment because it is Yeah, I mean,
thank you. I do like I let that, I take
(02:31):
that that's important to me, But I don't. I don't
affect that, and I don't fake that. So maybe that's
why it comes across as being genuine. I don't know,
you know, I think I have to put it down
to my parents and my upbringing, and I think they
were so sort of they had such different upbringings that
maybe in the middle it meant that it was going
(02:52):
to be normal because neither of them were normal. Um.
And I think that I had, you know, a lot
of siblings and we also it's funny like when the
whole kind of COVID thing happened and everyone went into isolation,
for me, it was really normal because I feel like
I grew up with self isolation as a choice as
a kid. Like we grew up on farm in Scotland.
(03:15):
We were quite healthily removed from the scene that we
you know, we were on the kind of outskirts of
My mom and dad were very conscious to sort of
pull us out of that. So everyone else in that,
all the other kids were we're really in the scene
and kind of you know, and I think that maybe
I don't really knows the answer to your question. I
(03:36):
went to a local, comprehensive school. I went to a
normal state school, and I think that was a big
help because there was never sort of any smoke blown
up my ask. You know, there was never an idea
that I was better than anyone. In fact, it was
kind of worked your disadvantage in a state school, so
I think. And also when you're when you grow up
with parents in the public eye, you're so self aware
(03:58):
and you're so aware of people's pre judgment and sort
of you know, walking into a room and other people
already having made up their mind about you. So I
think a lot of elements, but i'd say parents and
probably school. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Have
you ever done an interview? People don't talk to you
about your family. Actually it's a miracle. And well, you know,
(04:20):
I chose a career on purpose that wasn't in the
same line of work as my mom and dad, and
it also is a career that's sort of behind the camera,
you know, like you again, one that especially at the
time in the nineties fashion design is there are really
a few that were kind of really you know, recognizable
and kind of a conic. The majority of them were
(04:41):
providing a service behind the screen, you know, So it's, um,
it was always my my decision to sort of I
didn't mind getting known or recognized for my career choice,
but I didn't want to be known outside of that.
So I didn't do a lot of Telly. I didn't
do a lot of sort of media that would have
exposed me into a different kind of audience, I guess. So, Um,
(05:06):
the beginning of my career, everything was dad, dad, dad mom.
You know, every headline was oh, with a little help
from her friends or you know, everything was that, and
all the kind of judgment was that. And then I
started to kind of I had some kind of longevity
and so then it became about my work. And now
actually it's very rare that they bring up my family
(05:27):
actually and my my kind of upbringing, because now it's
mostly about sustainability and sort of the fashion industry. And
I got, you know, I think I represent in my
industry something so specific that nobody else really does, and
I've been doing it for years now that um, yeah,
they talked less about that. Actually, I'm kind of ready
for them to talk about it now. I feel confident
(05:49):
enough now that I could talk about it more. Isn't
that a great feeling to know that you you know
that your work speaks for itself, and that the longevity
you've had you have when it kind of tips the
other way and it's it's undoubtedly about you and your talent.
It's such a it must be such a good feeling
when that happened. It happened a while ago, and I
(06:11):
was very aware of it happening. I was like, Oh,
this is amazing. They haven't asked me. The questions aren't
about my you know, family upbringing. Yeah, it is amazing.
I feel very very lucky actually to have sort of
crossed over into that. It's it feels like it's a
rare thing, and I feel very very lucky actually to
(06:31):
have done that. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about your dad. Okay,
so no, let's talk about let's talk about the image
of marriage that your parents gave you because they were
married for twenty nine years, which is, you know, an
(06:52):
amazing amount of time. And you've been married for eighteen years.
I've been married for Dean, but with Nick for twenty um,
so both of us are long term marriages. But do
you think that your own marriage was modeled after what
you saw growing up, because most people don't know it's
(07:12):
possible to be married that long. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I'm actually shocked at those numbers because you don't obviously
think it every day. You're not living those numbers. So
I'm not you know, I can't believe I've got into
eighteen and I'm no now for twenty as well. Um, yeah,
I think obviously my mom and dad were so sort
of rare again in the environment they were in and
(07:34):
in rock and roll, that even feels like that you're
not even really allowed to have a long term marriage
if you're in that kind of world. It's sort of
reserved for for people that aren't exposed to to media exposure.
But yeah, for sure. I mean, Alistair's parents were married
for a huge amount of time and stayed married until,
you know, until his father passed away. So I think
(07:57):
that both of us had pretty good standards to kind
of look to and and yeah, you know, we're really
kind of you know, family is the most important thing
for us and and our kids for sure, and being
the best parents we can be. I mean, I'm sure
it's the same for you, you know, were, and we
didn't grow up with our parents doing that on purpose.
(08:17):
I think we're a different generation of parents. You know,
my mom and dad were great parents, but we got
dragged to every party and it was you know, you'd
opened the door two o'clock and a mounty. We go
home and it was David Bowie and Iggy Pop and
you know, we didn't have that kind of structure that
we have probably for our kids. Um well you say that,
I mean interestingly enough. You know Atlanta. When I had Atlanta,
(08:39):
I was nineteen, and she had more of that kind
of lifestyle where she just came everywhere with me. So
she was the kid asleep at two o'clock, you know,
on the kitchen, you know, chairs at someone's house, you know.
And I think that's great. I kind of I'm kind
of annoyed. I'm trying to clore a bit of that
into my kids because it's like, really like, you don't
(09:01):
see people getting trashed or you don't like it's good.
It's healthy to see a bit of a mess. It's
healthy to stay up a bit late and fall of
even arrest. Yes, you know, I think we have to.
It's finding that balance. I I am constantly trying to
question it because my kids don't go to a state
school and I am living in London, and so it's
kind of about, oh, you know, but you know, I
think and I hope that it is just love and
(09:26):
knowing that you're unconditionally loved and knowing that, you know,
I think my kids will say I hope that we are. Definitely,
they are definitely the most important thing in my life
and in Auristair's life. For sure, that's incredible if they
can come away with that feeling that, if they will
beat it into them essentially, I know, I know, I
don't think. I don't know that mine feel that, but
(09:49):
my kids probably don't feel that. But I'm telling myself
that they do because it makes me feel so much better.
Oh my god, doesn't It does feel better to think
that lying to yourself as a miracle. Let's do it
more so, let's talk about Alistair, because it takes a
certain kind of man to be married to a woman
who is like you or me. For example, Um and
(10:11):
I would say neither of our husband's lucky passive is
the word lucky? What you're looking for a really very lucky,
very fucking lucky looking lucky. It is that it is
someone who is confident in themselves, who is able to
be married to a woman who has a full on career,
who has you are you know, so smart, so opinionated,
(10:34):
so creative, You are a force and I love that
about you. And it does take a certain kind of
man to also love and appreciate and encourage that and
not after twenty years. Yeah, it's for sure. And you
know that's a really tricky one, though, isn't it, Because
I think we're so aware of that that you know,
(10:55):
at times, you can accommodate sort of you know, slightly
damp and like going, oh, I should hand that light down,
or I shouldn't be that kind of noisy, shouldn't come
into the room like that because it's difficult or annoying
or you know, or overwhelming. But yeah, for sure it does.
I don't think we're the easiest girls in the world,
but I do think we're great, and I think they're great,
(11:16):
and I think we're all pretty goddamn lucky. But yeah,
I mean, al Is, he's an amazing, amazing husband, incredible father,
like insanely incredible father. Um. Every single day we're trying
to do better at it all. You know, it's never.
I I'm always astonished that I kind of thought when
(11:37):
I was at school, naively, I leave school and everything
will just be like this, because it's just never. Not
one day seems to have a sort of stability or
a kind of like, oh okay, pool, I can finally relax.
It's always so maybe it's our lives, or maybe we
create this, or we bring the turmoil around us, but
(12:00):
is always something that you have to kind of accommodate
or navigate, or it's a working progress, isn't it every
single day it's like, Okay, I learned that today, and
I was betty yesterday at being that wife, and god,
I can be so much better tomorrow. I still feel
like I don't know a lot, you know, and I
feel like, honestly, I kind of nothing right. And but
(12:21):
it's funny. I said to my daughter a few years ago.
I was like, God, I'm just like we're talking, you know,
we're putting them to bed, because in the morning we
do scool around and then at night we really try
and always put into bed and stuff and chat as
when you get a cuddle in a chat and are
you still getting cuddles that's what about what about getting
cuddles off two of them? Two out of four? And
(12:41):
what about Bailey? And Bailey is not having any of it.
She will bailly me in the eye. And Miller is
is He'll He'll give me a bit of a cuddle.
But I always take it too far and he's like,
I'll always just go I can feel it. I'm always
like two seconds too far, and I'm always that I
should have pulled out, I should pull out one second before. Um.
(13:02):
But it's amazing. They're also different, my kids, and I'm
sure yours are too, But those conversations are sort of
the goal, you know, their gold dust, there, there everything.
And I remember saying to Bailey when she would talk
to me, Um, God, I wish you know I learned
something to day, And I was like, I wish I'd
learned that ten years ago. And my only job really
(13:23):
is to try and make you learn it ten years
before I've learned it. Like I feel like that's my
main job in life, is to try to get my
kids to learn the lessons I'm learning earlier than I have.
So with your with your kids, you've kept them out
of the public eye as well. Is that on purpose. Yeah, yeah,
(13:44):
very much so, because you know, my thing is is like,
it's not my It's not for me to expose my
children to the world. If they want to get eosed,
then they can expose themselves. It's not my decision. Like
that is really order that could really agree them up.
It's not my place to do so. Having said that,
we were on the cover of American Folk, but I
had to ask them all you can make that exception
(14:06):
if they wanted to do it, well, I had to ask.
They were all old enough for me to ask. And
I didn't realize it was going to be the cover
of American Folk because I just thought that Annie Leewitz
was just taking this lovely picture of me and my family,
and then they decided to do that, and I couldn't
really just it was such an honor and it was like, yeah,
you know by that age, they were so excited. Um,
but yeah, no, and I they're definitely not you know,
(14:29):
they're not recognizable at all. But I also have to say,
you know, I don't know how interesting I am anymore.
It's not you know, they're they're I kind of I'm not.
I'm I don't know, like I'm not out there much. No,
it's you're not like paparazzi fodder, right, But my my,
my point is is like it's a conscious choice to
keep your kids or one's kids out of the public eye.
(14:52):
And I remember last time we were in London and
we all went to the circus. Yes, do you remember that?
And then um, it was like with all of our kids,
it was like wrangling cats or you know. What's so
sad though, I have to say something that is my
great friend Ellie Gifford, and she passed away from breast cancer.
And that is a very sad reality of this conversation.
(15:16):
And she did this amazing circus called Gifford Circus, as
you know because you came and oh incredible, it's so sad.
You just remind me her little babies lost her and
she was great, amazing worry if that put us works,
But I guess that's what we're here to talk about. Yeah,
(15:38):
and you know, and I think that's a good place
for us to start to talk about this, which is um,
your commitment and your advocacy with breast cancer awareness. And
as long as I've known you, you've been advocating for
sustainability and breast cancer awareness. In fact, I didn't even
(16:01):
know what a sustainable company was, or I didn't know
much about sustainability until you started speaking about it. So
I want to talk to you a bit about your
advocacy overall. Where do you think that desire came from
to help people and to help the world. Oh that
sounds good. Um, I would say, I've really thought about
(16:23):
what I'm going to ask you, to make sure that
you are perceived as the awesome woman you are. Um, well,
I think again. You know, growing up to the parents
that I grew up with, and growing up on an
organic farm, um, being lucky, and so I saw the
seasons I understood organic farming. You know still actually I'm
an organic farmer now and I can talk about farming
(16:46):
and drainage and you know, I love that, and you know,
I can talk about all that stuff and and I
love that. I think I find it's so interesting. So
I grew up with that awareness and that conversation at
the dinner table. My parents were like the first members
of the Soil Association in England, one of the first
organic farms in this country, and it was always such
(17:08):
a fascinating conversation to to listen to and learned so much.
And then obviously we grew up vegetarians and my mom
started a you know, a plant based brand substitutes for
sausages and burgers in so she was like, she was
(17:30):
epic really in that she um she was so sort
of not allowed to be who she was. You know,
she wasn't allowed to not wear makeup, she wasn't allowed
to not shave her leg, she wasn't allowed to wear
coo lots and cowboy boots to ride her walks or
she wasn't and she wasn't allowed to be married to
Paul McCartney because she wasn't the conventional wife of or
(17:53):
you know that that didn't look like that. It still
doesn't really look like that. I mean, which wives of
some of the most famous people in the world would
look like that. We'll have those conversations. But she was
so inspiring and just gentle in her sort of delivery,
and so passionate about animals. Really it all started as
loving animals. So I grew up with that, you know,
(18:17):
and that really shaped my perspective. And then I was
lucky enough to go on tour and like travel the world,
so I really saw that the world was the world
and that actually people in Uruguay look the same as
people in New York, and actually they kind of they
were all the same kind of crowd that was reacting
to the same songs of my dad. So I kind of,
(18:39):
I don't know, I grew up kind of that we
were connecting. Quite an interesting perspective on it all. And
then when it came to me having my own career,
I was like, well, I can't do leather handbags and
I can't do leather shoes because you're killing animals. And
that's like ridiculous. I'm such a hypocrite if I do that.
And so that's how it started, and then it just
grew because then there was a u N report that
(18:59):
and now that eating animals and animal agriculture was just
massively to blame for the destruction of the planet. That
a hundred football pitchures or soccer pitchures, as you would say,
a cut down football I still say football football. Um,
every hour, a hundred football pittures are cut down, and
the you know, the equivalent of football pitchers are cut down,
(19:20):
and the Amazon rainforest for cattle farming. You know, So
things like that started to come through pieces of information.
It was like, oh my god, well then what you know, Okay,
I'm not using leather, but obviously I'm not using fur,
but talk to me about plastic. Talk to me about
how I can recycle fabrics. How what about my cotton?
Can it be organic? How what about regenerative cotton? Like
what about these knitwear? What about if we don't do wolves,
(19:43):
we don't do cash form, or you know, how can
we get a better wall that's kind of to animals.
So it just was like, you know, once you open
up that door, it's it's a dark room to walk into.
That was outside. And then obviously the breast cancers sadly
was from experience. You know, I lost the most inspiring
woman on earth to breast cancer, and my children never
(20:07):
met her, and my husband never met her, and you know,
half the people watching this don't know who the hell
she was. And it's like shit, you know, it was horrific, horrific,
And so I feel really strongly that I need to
let people know that breast cancer can be avoided. If
she'd found that earlier, she would be alive today. And
(20:29):
that's not you know, that's massively important. You know, we
have to prevent women from dying from breast cancer, especially
now in COVID when people aren't going in to get checked.
You know the numbers, there's millions of women just have
dropped out of the kind of you know, self detection
or detection. And it's terrible. You know, we have to
(20:50):
have this conversation. So you were twenty seven when your
mom died, and your mom was she waste, which is
so young. You said, had she have found it earlier,
she may not have died. So what happened? What was
her story? I don't think she wanted to find it,
you know. I think she probably kept it to herself.
(21:10):
She then went to a doctor that just misdiagnosed it,
and she didn't. You know, it was that it was
so different then. It was so different then it was
so like taboo like people you know, people didn't talk
about breast cancer. I mean, I've just done it. You know.
Now we talk about periods, we talk about you know, contraception,
we talk about different you know, the female body. By
(21:31):
the way, talk about touching your breasts. You know, there's
been a real shame and stigma about anything connected to
the female body, breast. I mean I said to my kids,
you to us. Vagina's exactly. Vagina is one of my
favorite words. I mean, I said to my son uncomfortably
the other day, literally a couple of weekends ago. I'm like,
and I'm really that awful mom. I'm like, Okay, how
(21:52):
do you feel about pubic hair? Because I did this
whole thing where I was so devastated that obviously porn
now there's no pubic hair and was like, and kids
are getting there at sex head from porn on which
I was the unrealistic example. I bought the domain for
bringing Back the Beaver dot com because I was like,
I'm going to do something about this, and then luckily
(22:12):
it became fashionable to have body hair again. I was like, okay,
I won't add that to my plate. But I have
those conversations with my kids. I'm like, okay, you're gonna
have pubic carey, you're not gonna have puper care? Why
are you? The other day I was with my son,
I was like, why is it that nipples are like rude?
Because we were swimming naked together. Because I'm I'm like,
I'm really adamant that I have to keep them being
(22:33):
I mean, a really old but you know, I want
I'm so I grew up so naked all the time,
and say, do you know there's a conversation there obviously
about how free you feel and what's appropriate. Obviously it's
changed now, but anyway, I was like, why is that rude?
And why is this not rude? And it's all, you know,
why all the sexual organs sort of taboom? Why can't
we talk about and why and why are they? Why
(22:56):
are they you know, why are they can only set
tualized as opposed to I mean, I also swim naked
with my kids and specifically with my son, and I
do it's got on my way to be like this
is what we look like, and and an older woman
as well, like, you know, it's important to me that
(23:16):
he sees a body that has carried three children, him
being one of them, and you know, he he sees
what an older bodies like. But I also had to
you know, his dad said to me at some point,
you know, I don't know if it's appropriate that it's
still going to see you naked anymore. And I said, well,
I'm just going to ask him, And I said, do
you feel uncomfortable? Um, if I'm naked around you, and
(23:37):
he was like, no, I don't care, and so I
had to go by that is your is your son
comfortable and comfortable mom? And can you stop it? Um? No, no, no,
it depends which one. But no, I don't. I mean
I haven't asked them. That's a good question. I haven't
really let them have a decision. They just asked if
I could put clothes on when their friends come over,
which of course I'm going to. I haven't done that either.
I just they're quite into it. I mean going to
(24:00):
get canceled at some stage this conversation like something is
not allowed to know something well, I mean inevitably with
you and I, we are going to say something that
this has been good. Okay, we're being really good. Okay,
So let's go back to um breast Cancer and Stella
Cares because I want you to talk a little bit
about this or your organization and what you do and
(24:24):
also why you decided to partner with Victoria's Secret on
this initiative. Yes, well, so, Stellar Cares is split into
two sellar Pink and Seller Green. The Green is the
sustainable side, which is very much create policy change incentives
in the industry of fashion to actually be more green
(24:45):
and to really kind of you know, dissect what work
needs to be done in making the business of fashion
cleaner and the pink side really at the moment is
so I did this thing guys with a Janina Jolie
and she had just had had her double mossectomy and
we were having tea and she was like, you really
(25:05):
need to sort out these missectomy bras because they're so horrific,
and you know, and they're horrible. They make make you
feel so unfeminine, they're so unsexy. Just they're just painful,
they're horrible, and you know, they just make you feel
even worse when you're going through the worst thing ever.
And obviously I saw my mom wear them and everything
was wrong about it. I was like, oh my god,
(25:26):
you know, she's getting burnt here, she's getting cut up there,
and on top of it all, you've lost all your
sort of femininity, You've lost it. You know, how can
I make women feel beautiful? Because there's such a deep
connection between in their sexuality, their relationships, their own self,
relationship with their own bodies and were so kind of layered,
(25:47):
and I was like, yes, absolutely, I must do that.
So I decided to make a double missectomy bra that
was beautiful and organic because a lot of those bras
are not made out of organic materials. And for me, like,
if you're going through those horrific, horrific operations, you want
to have your skin touched with something that feels it
(26:07):
hasn't got chemicals or it's not you know, not going
to add to your discomfort. So I went home and
we made at worker doubling sector me bra. And the
aim for the Pink really is to give away every
single woman on earth that has to go through a
double and sector me she will be given a breath
for free. So that is the the intent of the
(26:29):
Pink side of the foundation, and we're on a really
good track. And actually Victoria's Secret have given us an
amazing donation, so it's thanks to them also for you know,
being part of that story. And on one hand, I've
just been I've really been trying to communicate as well,
the conversation of breast cancer, not only obviously how many
(26:50):
women are dying from this every year, but also the
communities that are just destroyed and broken, and I feel
that I'm kind of one of them, and I'm trying
to have that conversation in a way that isn't sort
of sugarcoated. So, you know, we did this bra and
my teams were trying to take photos of it for
social media so we could launch it and we could
(27:11):
talk about it. And they sort of had the bra on,
you know, on on a closed line, and it was
sort of and I was like, no, no, no, I
need to see this on women. I want to see
their scars, I want to hear their stories, and I'm
not going to apologize for this, and we need to really, like,
you know, if people need to see this to know
that the truth Okay, that this is real. So we've
come at it in a really in a great way,
I think, and we've we've done a double set me wrong,
(27:33):
We've added us now, so we've gotten to like where
we're working on a swimwear one. So it's really just
trying to kind of bring this into these women's lives,
you know, so they can live their life and they
can still feel like a woman. Yeah, that was a
very long answer. I do apologize, No, it was. It's
great because when I think about, actually, you know, fashion
(27:54):
is your or I wouldn't even say fashion design is
your vehicle to communicate and to share your mission. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm very lucky in that sense. But I'm so privileged, Amanda.
I've I've had such a privileged upbringing and I've been
placed on this earth. God knows why, but I was
(28:15):
given a pretty good entry point into the situation. And
I just think, I feel like, what I'm gonna I'm
not going to do anything with that. Like, I think,
I'm so lucky that if people are interested or would
pay attention to me saying something that I want to
make it something that number one I really believe in.
And I'm not going to bullsh it and I'm not
(28:35):
going to lie about I'm not going to greenwash it.
I'm going to try and be as honest as I
can because I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to learn,
you know. And so I think, um, I wouldn't do
I wouldn't be able to go to work if I
didn't do these things. That really helps. But also I
feel so proud because you know, we're we're a modern
brand in the sense that people want to work in
(28:56):
a brand like this. You know, young people, I think
really feel proud that they're working for a brand that
would talk about breast cancer awareness and a lot of
fashion brands do. Actually to give our industry credit, we do.
We are good at breast cancer awareness, I think. But
it's part of the DNA of your company. I mean,
your this is your your company has been alive for
(29:16):
twenty years now, and advocacy has been built into your
company because it comes from you and that is part
of your life and your world and part of who
you are. We've all seen companies who are um, you know,
either coming to a realization that that is something that's
really that they need to find something that's important to them.
(29:38):
And I never think it's too late. I don't care.
Whenever people get the message and they want to do something.
And I've been looking at your what you've been doing
for so long and the partnership with vs and how
they have supported this vasecutly bra Is is fantastic because
women in every single country around the world is suffering
(29:59):
from breast cancer. I mean it's huge actually and also
so brilliant in a sense that you know, VSA of
their young brand, you know, like they've always been young girl.
You know, young girls want to buy into that brand.
So talking to that generation for this kind of conversation
is critical because I think almost shaming your mom or
your aunt or your grandma into checking herself, Like, you know,
(30:21):
that's really great. You know if we can sort of
sit and be heard by younger women. You're young, you know,
and they're like, you know what, Damn, I'm gonna go
ho I'm longing to tell my mom, will ask my
mom when when was she last checked? Or like make
her I'm going to go with her and I'm going
to sit there while you know those kind of I mean,
it would be amazing if we could get to a
stage as a society we're actually checking yourself or going
(30:44):
to get checked, became like a community thing, or it
became something that you're proud of, that you were loud
about that you were like, I'm gonna go get a
mam around. I love that instead of botox parties, we
could have breath checked party, cancer party. Yeah. And actually
it's funny. I've been talking to my guys about it
for years. We're like, you know, I'd love our stores
to be these communities. So I thought, I think we'd
(31:05):
love to kind of work to that. I think it's
really important to talk to young men and men about
this too, just because I think all those two booze
need to be they need, you know, more than ever.
We're having conversations about hard hitting topics in the world
were allowed to now, and I think we've really got
to give men permission to be part of this conversation
(31:25):
because you know, your husband's got to say, when did
you get checked? How would get mad at you when
you didn't what you say? It's not you know, this
isn't about you, This is about all of us. Well
that's actually what happened to me over COVID and I was,
you know, I shared this with you, but I had
a lump that I found and you know, not to
(31:46):
be too detailed about it, but you know, my husband
touches my breast more than I do, and so I said,
for twenty years. After twenty years, yeah, yes, still, oh
mind us too. Of course we can talk more about that.
But I was like, does this feel normal to you?
Is this is this normally here? And he was like,
(32:06):
it doesn't actually feel like it's normally there, and so
I was able to kind of check back with him
weirdly and uh, and I you know, and he took
me and I got it checked and it was inconclusive,
and then I had to have so that was a sonogram,
and then I had to go get a mammogram and
an ultrasound. And this went on over a three month
(32:30):
period because they had to come back and check it.
And that happened in your family, Amanda, No, and so
I had tested for the gene. No, may as well
me as well. I mean, yes, but I never had
an experience on what happened. I interrupted do. I never
had an experience. I never had to think about it
(32:51):
because no one close to me had it, no family member.
And suddenly I was thinking, oh, what does this mean
and what if? And for that three months period, I
was really terrified and a long time it really was.
And luckily it turned out to be absolutely fine. But
it really made me think about how I'm someone who's aware,
(33:12):
who reads things, who's, you know, pretty educated about about
my own mental and physical health. And I realized I
knew so little. And what I realized is that women
younger and younger are getting diagnosed with breast cancer. So
in fact, saying oh you need to wait till you're
fifty or forty five to get a mamogram, that age
needs to be younger, don't you think. Yeah, I mean, look,
(33:35):
the great thing about this conversation is self care and
sort of checking yourself is free of charge. You don't
have to go anywhere for it. You know, you don't
need to know a lot. You can just go online
and find a video of some kind of way of
knowing and anyway, Yeah, you must start that, Jesus as
soon as you are aware of it. You know, there's
no age on that. Um. But yeah, absolutely this is
(33:58):
not reserved sadly for the women. It's just not. And
also there's it's interesting I did so I would I
would do with my lingerie range. I would do each
season and I do UM, I make a pink bra
or pink set underwear set and proceeds. Some proceeds for
that go toward breast cancer awareness as well. And in
(34:18):
doing that, I had Kate Mosst did the first one,
and then Chelsea Handler did it, Kara did it. Then
I was like, wait, I'm not sorry, you know, let's
talk about race here because I've got all these sort
of you know, friends doing it, but what happens with
black women and breast cancer? And I found out that
I was like like higher mortality rate in black women
(34:38):
because of the stigma attached in getting checked and the
kind of taboo of having those conversations. So then Alicia
Keys very kindly became my next awareness on that and
her mother actually had breast cancer twice. Thank god she's
still with us. But it was amazing that the kind
of knowledge that yeah, we don't know. I mean I
never would have known that, you know. And then going
(34:59):
to all these enters in Harlem. I went to this
great center, slow and catching center in Harlem, um in
that community, and I was like, it was it's a
free SECRUW breast screening center and nobody knows about it
because in America don't know about three sources. You know,
people don't know about it. In America, nothing's for free
and health. And I was like, how do you get
the community in, Like how do you let people know
(35:21):
church word of mouth? You know, so that it's the
kind of thing you don't want to know about, you know,
like we don't want to know this information, um, but
you don't want to find out about it when it's
you know, when it's too late. Absolutely, Well, I really
hope that this partnership that you're doing with VS will
(35:42):
allow that disinformation to be shared widely and globally, because
the more people that know about this, I know about
the work that you're already doing, the better. UM. I
want to go back to I want to go back
to um COVID time, and UM, I was you know,
(36:03):
it was so interesting, Like I know you well and
for a long time, so I never sort of researched
my friends, and I think I miss so much of
what they do. Um. You know, I had to interview
Gwyneth for some lifetime achievement thing and I had no
idea she'd done so many movies. I could only name
like three of them. Um, and so I had to
do three. We're not even going to get into that,
but but um, but so I was really I was
(36:26):
doing all this research on you and realizing, oh my gosh,
you have done so much. What an incredible career and
life that you've had, which I knew. But but one
of the things that I loved reading UM was that
you had said during COVID that you had rewritten a
mission for yourself, and I wanted to talk to you
(36:50):
about Well, you said you said you had written a
personal manifesto. Yeah, I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to.
I just sort of couldn't sleep well. Actually, know what
it was is, I had two weeks when COVID kind
of locked down in the UK. I was lucky enough
to go to our farm and have all our kids around.
It was two weeks before this kind of reality came
(37:12):
into play where you just went back to back meetings
on on a computer and I was kind of like, god, what.
I just had a moment to pause and I sort
of said to myself, why would you come to my
fashion house? Like why does this world need the brands done? McCartney?
Is this really important? Like is this necessary? And I
(37:34):
found myself just saying, God, you know what, Actually, if
this isn't important in my industry to do the work
that I'm really doing and not just talking about doing,
but really really doing here, I was just like, you know,
I've got to because until my business model is replaced
in my industry by the by the majority, then I
(37:54):
really have work to do. Um And so then I
sort of thought, well, what is it that I do
and what is that we do here and that we
believe in here? And so then I wrote this manifesto
and the manifesto. Can you share what was in that
or a little bit of it it actually became and yeah,
it became. Actually what we did was we made it
(38:15):
into an alphabet. So it's the Z of of words
that we stand for and that we believe in. So
m A is for accountability, um SEE is for conscious,
um Z is for zero waste, is for organic, um
M is for mindful, ks for kindness. So I just
(38:36):
sort of we did we put a word that we
believed it was really important to our core values. We
put it into an alphabet, and then we put we
did a collection that was all all sustainable. So we've
made dresses out of all of the old prints that
we have held onto et Stella because most fashion brands
burn them or they bury them, and we kept them
(38:57):
and so it was great. I was like, finally I
can use all these prints and so we may these
zero waste dresses out of sort of. I think each
dress had like nine prints, nine different seasons in it.
And my team were like, we can't do that because
we're going to run out of print. The buyers might
want X amount of dresses and we might only be
able to give them, you know, five, And I was like, great,
let's only give them five limited edition. I don't care,
(39:18):
like you know, we had and it was just such
a great It was just a great way to reset,
reset what we believe in here, you know, because sometimes
business just kind of takes over and it's it was great.
It's been really enjoyable and where you you know, we
use it all the time. Now. When you were talking
about realizing that you you know that what your mission
(39:41):
and what your your company stands for, even that experience
of doing these limited edition did it make you rethink
how you do business? Yeah, I mean I think I'm
always resetting and rethinking here. It's like I might get
uncomfortable if I do stuff too, you know. I'm always like,
oh that feels a bit comfortable, let's change it. So
I'm sort of of a nightmare in that respect. But well,
(40:03):
you're you're a rule you're a risk taker. You are
I'm a rule breaker there probably if that I'll take
that as a bloody compliment. I'll tell you, actually, that
is a huge compliment, thank you. It is because people
get afraid and they want to stay in the same
thing because it is work to be to move the system,
(40:25):
move the set up and get people to actually adjust
to what you're thinking in a different way. That is
a lot of work for for an entire company. It
is a lot of work. And my company will be
the people that work with me here will be the
first people to agree with you, and I drive them
crazy and it is so much work and sometimes they
need to tap me on the shold and go whool,
(40:46):
slow down, stall, and like we're still doing what you
told us to do a year ago, was do you know?
But um yeah, for me, it's like it's been really exciting.
So in that period, we kind of ran out of waste,
like all you know, we had old T shirts. Maybe
it kind of got you know, we're no longer relevant,
and we would they were going to sail or, you know,
and I was just like, let's use up all our waists,
(41:08):
and so we kind of used that. We've used up
all our waists now here in the brand. So now
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna use somebody else's waist. So
we're doing that now. Wait, you're getting materials from other companies,
so now people's ways. I want to just talk quickly
about the complete bullshit myth about women having it all
because I think that needs to be abolished from our language,
(41:31):
because parenting, having a relationship, take care of yourself, and
having a job doing it without something suffering or something
taking it here at some point it's impossible. And I
wanted to get your perspective on that. Well. I mean,
I think we all as working moms or I mean,
(41:51):
if you bring the parenting thing in, you're constantly you
don't ever feel like you're delivering. If you're working, you
don't feel like you're delivering on being a good enough parent,
and you're not they're enough, And if you're not at work,
you're not there enough. So you sort of concept, but
I don't know. For me personally, I'm constantly torn that
I didn't stay in the office until twelve o'clock to
finish the Heam line of address because I wanted to
(42:12):
get home to put my kids to bed at seven
and cuddle them. So no, I don't think anyone, I mean,
does anyone have it all? Though? I mean, like what
and by the way, what is having it all exactly like?
Because I don't know if I want it all. I
don't want it all. I'm so good to go, like
you know, I'm I'm happy with nothing in a field
(42:34):
as long as I've just got those little babies and
my health, my loved ones. Like you know what, health
is wealth. I couldn't agree with you more. And knowing
that you that that is the most important thing to
you means that anything else is just a gift on
top of it, because you're good with the baseline. Health
is wealth. It is literally all that we have. You
(42:58):
have nothing if you don't have your health, and if
you don't have love and health. I am right now
in this moment feeling my love and friendship for you,
and I'm healthy, and you know I could want for
nothing more. You're very good at this, Amanda, but this
is what you do. You're quite major, aren't you, babe.
I'm so proud of you. Thank you, and I love you, Amanda.
(43:23):
I love you, Stella. This is VS Voices, a brand
new original podcast series by Victoria's Secret. Listen here or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to VS Voices. I'm a Mandate Acadney. In this episode,
I speak with designer and activist Stella McCartney about long
term marriage and parenting, what it's like building a truly
sustainable brand, and how the loss of her mother from
breast cancer inspired her work with Stella cares all right,
let's go, come on a mad it's by the way.
(00:25):
I love you and I miss It's so nice to
see and you're great, So nice to see you. Full
transparency that we know each other for many many years
since we are young people. Um, and so I definitely
have a biased opinion of Stella of you because I've
known you a very long time and I just love
(00:46):
and adore you. Likewise got your sister. Yeah, yeah, we
haven't got history, we really do. I was thinking about
the first time I remember seeing you as an adult,
and it was in Dean Street and you were about
to do your first show for St. Martin's and I
(01:06):
was talking to you and you said, yeah, I'm I've
got I'm showing these slips. I've got slips from Portobello
Market and I'm redoing them and my girlfriends are gonna
wear them. And that's I'm going to do a mix
of that and light suits. And I was like, oh
my god, that's perfect. Stella is going to take the
slip look and turn it into her own gorgeous thing.
And I never got one of those slips, but I
(01:27):
remember that show very well. I like the way that
I just said, some of my friends are going to
model it, And it happened to be Naomi Campbell, Kate
moss Yasmin who else. It was all those amazing girls
so understated. My god, all those amazing girls. You know what.
She's funny. Kate found one of those in a vintage
store the other day and she bought your kids the
(01:49):
one that she wore. She was like, I had to
buy it because I wore it. Oh my god. That
is so I still have to say, it's all coming
back now, babe. Wow. So um, you are one of
the most grounded people that I know, especially you are.
You're one of the most grounded famous people that I know.
(02:11):
And it's true, and I'm wondering what you would attribute
your ability to stay so right size too, is it?
Do you think it was to do with your childhood
and how you grow up? Well, I'll take that as
a really big compliment because it is Yeah, I mean,
thank you. I do like I let that, I take
(02:31):
that that's important to me, But I don't. I don't
affect that, and I don't fake that. So maybe that's
why it comes across as being genuine. I don't know,
you know, I think I have to put it down
to my parents and my upbringing, and I think they
were so sort of they had such different upbringings that
maybe in the middle it meant that it was going
(02:52):
to be normal because neither of them were normal. Um.
And I think that I had, you know, a lot
of siblings and we also it's funny like when the
whole kind of COVID thing happened and everyone went into isolation,
for me, it was really normal because I feel like
I grew up with self isolation as a choice as
a kid. Like we grew up on farm in Scotland.
(03:15):
We were quite healthily removed from the scene that we
you know, we were on the kind of outskirts of
My mom and dad were very conscious to sort of
pull us out of that. So everyone else in that,
all the other kids were we're really in the scene
and kind of you know, and I think that maybe
I don't really knows the answer to your question. I
(03:36):
went to a local, comprehensive school. I went to a
normal state school, and I think that was a big
help because there was never sort of any smoke blown
up my ask. You know, there was never an idea
that I was better than anyone. In fact, it was
kind of worked your disadvantage in a state school, so
I think. And also when you're when you grow up
with parents in the public eye, you're so self aware
(03:58):
and you're so aware of people's pre judgment and sort
of you know, walking into a room and other people
already having made up their mind about you. So I
think a lot of elements, but i'd say parents and
probably school. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Have
you ever done an interview? People don't talk to you
about your family. Actually it's a miracle. And well, you know,
(04:20):
I chose a career on purpose that wasn't in the
same line of work as my mom and dad, and
it also is a career that's sort of behind the camera,
you know, like you again, one that especially at the
time in the nineties fashion design is there are really
a few that were kind of really you know, recognizable
and kind of a conic. The majority of them were
(04:41):
providing a service behind the screen, you know, So it's, um,
it was always my my decision to sort of I
didn't mind getting known or recognized for my career choice,
but I didn't want to be known outside of that.
So I didn't do a lot of Telly. I didn't
do a lot of sort of media that would have
exposed me into a different kind of audience, I guess. So, Um,
(05:06):
the beginning of my career, everything was dad, dad, dad mom.
You know, every headline was oh, with a little help
from her friends or you know, everything was that, and
all the kind of judgment was that. And then I
started to kind of I had some kind of longevity
and so then it became about my work. And now
actually it's very rare that they bring up my family
(05:27):
actually and my my kind of upbringing, because now it's
mostly about sustainability and sort of the fashion industry. And
I got, you know, I think I represent in my
industry something so specific that nobody else really does, and
I've been doing it for years now that um, yeah,
they talked less about that. Actually, I'm kind of ready
for them to talk about it now. I feel confident
(05:49):
enough now that I could talk about it more. Isn't
that a great feeling to know that you you know
that your work speaks for itself, and that the longevity
you've had you have when it kind of tips the
other way and it's it's undoubtedly about you and your talent.
It's such a it must be such a good feeling
when that happened. It happened a while ago, and I
(06:11):
was very aware of it happening. I was like, Oh,
this is amazing. They haven't asked me. The questions aren't
about my you know, family upbringing. Yeah, it is amazing.
I feel very very lucky actually to have sort of
crossed over into that. It's it feels like it's a
rare thing, and I feel very very lucky actually to
(06:31):
have done that. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about your dad. Okay,
so no, let's talk about let's talk about the image
of marriage that your parents gave you because they were
married for twenty nine years, which is, you know, an
(06:52):
amazing amount of time. And you've been married for eighteen years.
I've been married for Dean, but with Nick for twenty um,
so both of us are long term marriages. But do
you think that your own marriage was modeled after what
you saw growing up, because most people don't know it's
(07:12):
possible to be married that long. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I'm actually shocked at those numbers because you don't obviously
think it every day. You're not living those numbers. So
I'm not you know, I can't believe I've got into
eighteen and I'm no now for twenty as well. Um, yeah,
I think obviously my mom and dad were so sort
of rare again in the environment they were in and
(07:34):
in rock and roll, that even feels like that you're
not even really allowed to have a long term marriage
if you're in that kind of world. It's sort of
reserved for for people that aren't exposed to to media exposure.
But yeah, for sure. I mean, Alistair's parents were married
for a huge amount of time and stayed married until,
you know, until his father passed away. So I think
(07:57):
that both of us had pretty good standards to kind
of look to and and yeah, you know, we're really
kind of you know, family is the most important thing
for us and and our kids for sure, and being
the best parents we can be. I mean, I'm sure
it's the same for you, you know, were, and we
didn't grow up with our parents doing that on purpose.
(08:17):
I think we're a different generation of parents. You know,
my mom and dad were great parents, but we got
dragged to every party and it was you know, you'd
opened the door two o'clock and a mounty. We go
home and it was David Bowie and Iggy Pop and
you know, we didn't have that kind of structure that
we have probably for our kids. Um well you say that,
I mean interestingly enough. You know Atlanta. When I had Atlanta,
(08:39):
I was nineteen, and she had more of that kind
of lifestyle where she just came everywhere with me. So
she was the kid asleep at two o'clock, you know,
on the kitchen, you know, chairs at someone's house, you know.
And I think that's great. I kind of I'm kind
of annoyed. I'm trying to clore a bit of that
into my kids because it's like, really like, you don't
(09:01):
see people getting trashed or you don't like it's good.
It's healthy to see a bit of a mess. It's
healthy to stay up a bit late and fall of
even arrest. Yes, you know, I think we have to.
It's finding that balance. I I am constantly trying to
question it because my kids don't go to a state
school and I am living in London, and so it's
kind of about, oh, you know, but you know, I
think and I hope that it is just love and
(09:26):
knowing that you're unconditionally loved and knowing that, you know,
I think my kids will say I hope that we are. Definitely,
they are definitely the most important thing in my life
and in Auristair's life. For sure, that's incredible if they
can come away with that feeling that, if they will
beat it into them essentially, I know, I know, I
don't think. I don't know that mine feel that, but
(09:49):
my kids probably don't feel that. But I'm telling myself
that they do because it makes me feel so much better.
Oh my god, doesn't It does feel better to think
that lying to yourself as a miracle. Let's do it
more so, let's talk about Alistair, because it takes a
certain kind of man to be married to a woman
who is like you or me. For example, Um and
(10:11):
I would say neither of our husband's lucky passive is
the word lucky? What you're looking for a really very lucky,
very fucking lucky looking lucky. It is that it is
someone who is confident in themselves, who is able to
be married to a woman who has a full on career,
who has you are you know, so smart, so opinionated,
(10:34):
so creative, You are a force and I love that
about you. And it does take a certain kind of
man to also love and appreciate and encourage that and
not after twenty years. Yeah, it's for sure. And you
know that's a really tricky one, though, isn't it, Because
I think we're so aware of that that you know,
(10:55):
at times, you can accommodate sort of you know, slightly
damp and like going, oh, I should hand that light down,
or I shouldn't be that kind of noisy, shouldn't come
into the room like that because it's difficult or annoying
or you know, or overwhelming. But yeah, for sure it does.
I don't think we're the easiest girls in the world,
but I do think we're great, and I think they're great,
(11:16):
and I think we're all pretty goddamn lucky. But yeah,
I mean, al Is, he's an amazing, amazing husband, incredible father,
like insanely incredible father. Um. Every single day we're trying
to do better at it all. You know, it's never.
I I'm always astonished that I kind of thought when
(11:37):
I was at school, naively, I leave school and everything
will just be like this, because it's just never. Not
one day seems to have a sort of stability or
a kind of like, oh okay, pool, I can finally relax.
It's always so maybe it's our lives, or maybe we
create this, or we bring the turmoil around us, but
(12:00):
is always something that you have to kind of accommodate
or navigate, or it's a working progress, isn't it every
single day it's like, Okay, I learned that today, and
I was betty yesterday at being that wife, and god,
I can be so much better tomorrow. I still feel
like I don't know a lot, you know, and I
feel like, honestly, I kind of nothing right. And but
(12:21):
it's funny. I said to my daughter a few years ago.
I was like, God, I'm just like we're talking, you know,
we're putting them to bed, because in the morning we
do scool around and then at night we really try
and always put into bed and stuff and chat as
when you get a cuddle in a chat and are
you still getting cuddles that's what about what about getting
cuddles off two of them? Two out of four? And
(12:41):
what about Bailey? And Bailey is not having any of it.
She will bailly me in the eye. And Miller is
is He'll He'll give me a bit of a cuddle.
But I always take it too far and he's like,
I'll always just go I can feel it. I'm always
like two seconds too far, and I'm always that I
should have pulled out, I should pull out one second before. Um.
(13:02):
But it's amazing. They're also different, my kids, and I'm
sure yours are too, But those conversations are sort of
the goal, you know, their gold dust, there, there everything.
And I remember saying to Bailey when she would talk
to me, Um, God, I wish you know I learned
something to day, And I was like, I wish I'd
learned that ten years ago. And my only job really
(13:23):
is to try and make you learn it ten years
before I've learned it. Like I feel like that's my
main job in life, is to try to get my
kids to learn the lessons I'm learning earlier than I have.
So with your with your kids, you've kept them out
of the public eye as well. Is that on purpose. Yeah, yeah,
(13:44):
very much so, because you know, my thing is is like,
it's not my It's not for me to expose my
children to the world. If they want to get eosed,
then they can expose themselves. It's not my decision. Like
that is really order that could really agree them up.
It's not my place to do so. Having said that,
we were on the cover of American Folk, but I
had to ask them all you can make that exception
(14:06):
if they wanted to do it, well, I had to ask.
They were all old enough for me to ask. And
I didn't realize it was going to be the cover
of American Folk because I just thought that Annie Leewitz
was just taking this lovely picture of me and my family,
and then they decided to do that, and I couldn't
really just it was such an honor and it was like, yeah,
you know by that age, they were so excited. Um,
but yeah, no, and I they're definitely not you know,
(14:29):
they're not recognizable at all. But I also have to say,
you know, I don't know how interesting I am anymore.
It's not you know, they're they're I kind of I'm not.
I'm I don't know, like I'm not out there much. No,
it's you're not like paparazzi fodder, right, But my my,
my point is is like it's a conscious choice to
keep your kids or one's kids out of the public eye.
(14:52):
And I remember last time we were in London and
we all went to the circus. Yes, do you remember that?
And then um, it was like with all of our kids,
it was like wrangling cats or you know. What's so
sad though, I have to say something that is my
great friend Ellie Gifford, and she passed away from breast cancer.
And that is a very sad reality of this conversation.
(15:16):
And she did this amazing circus called Gifford Circus, as
you know because you came and oh incredible, it's so sad.
You just remind me her little babies lost her and
she was great, amazing worry if that put us works,
But I guess that's what we're here to talk about. Yeah,
(15:38):
and you know, and I think that's a good place
for us to start to talk about this, which is um,
your commitment and your advocacy with breast cancer awareness. And
as long as I've known you, you've been advocating for
sustainability and breast cancer awareness. In fact, I didn't even
(16:01):
know what a sustainable company was, or I didn't know
much about sustainability until you started speaking about it. So
I want to talk to you a bit about your
advocacy overall. Where do you think that desire came from
to help people and to help the world. Oh that
sounds good. Um, I would say, I've really thought about
(16:23):
what I'm going to ask you, to make sure that
you are perceived as the awesome woman you are. Um, well,
I think again. You know, growing up to the parents
that I grew up with, and growing up on an
organic farm, um, being lucky, and so I saw the
seasons I understood organic farming. You know still actually I'm
an organic farmer now and I can talk about farming
(16:46):
and drainage and you know, I love that, and you know,
I can talk about all that stuff and and I
love that. I think I find it's so interesting. So
I grew up with that awareness and that conversation at
the dinner table. My parents were like the first members
of the Soil Association in England, one of the first
organic farms in this country, and it was always such
(17:08):
a fascinating conversation to to listen to and learned so much.
And then obviously we grew up vegetarians and my mom
started a you know, a plant based brand substitutes for
sausages and burgers in so she was like, she was
(17:30):
epic really in that she um she was so sort
of not allowed to be who she was. You know,
she wasn't allowed to not wear makeup, she wasn't allowed
to not shave her leg, she wasn't allowed to wear
coo lots and cowboy boots to ride her walks or
she wasn't and she wasn't allowed to be married to
Paul McCartney because she wasn't the conventional wife of or
(17:53):
you know that that didn't look like that. It still
doesn't really look like that. I mean, which wives of
some of the most famous people in the world would
look like that. We'll have those conversations. But she was
so inspiring and just gentle in her sort of delivery,
and so passionate about animals. Really it all started as
loving animals. So I grew up with that, you know,
(18:17):
and that really shaped my perspective. And then I was
lucky enough to go on tour and like travel the world,
so I really saw that the world was the world
and that actually people in Uruguay look the same as
people in New York, and actually they kind of they
were all the same kind of crowd that was reacting
to the same songs of my dad. So I kind of,
(18:39):
I don't know, I grew up kind of that we
were connecting. Quite an interesting perspective on it all. And
then when it came to me having my own career,
I was like, well, I can't do leather handbags and
I can't do leather shoes because you're killing animals. And
that's like ridiculous. I'm such a hypocrite if I do that.
And so that's how it started, and then it just
grew because then there was a u N report that
(18:59):
and now that eating animals and animal agriculture was just
massively to blame for the destruction of the planet. That
a hundred football pitchures or soccer pitchures, as you would say,
a cut down football I still say football football. Um,
every hour, a hundred football pittures are cut down, and
the you know, the equivalent of football pitchers are cut down,
(19:20):
and the Amazon rainforest for cattle farming. You know, So
things like that started to come through pieces of information.
It was like, oh my god, well then what you know, Okay,
I'm not using leather, but obviously I'm not using fur,
but talk to me about plastic. Talk to me about
how I can recycle fabrics. How what about my cotton?
Can it be organic? How what about regenerative cotton? Like
what about these knitwear? What about if we don't do wolves,
(19:43):
we don't do cash form, or you know, how can
we get a better wall that's kind of to animals.
So it just was like, you know, once you open
up that door, it's it's a dark room to walk into.
That was outside. And then obviously the breast cancers sadly
was from experience. You know, I lost the most inspiring
woman on earth to breast cancer, and my children never
(20:07):
met her, and my husband never met her, and you know,
half the people watching this don't know who the hell
she was. And it's like shit, you know, it was horrific, horrific,
And so I feel really strongly that I need to
let people know that breast cancer can be avoided. If
she'd found that earlier, she would be alive today. And
(20:29):
that's not you know, that's massively important. You know, we
have to prevent women from dying from breast cancer, especially
now in COVID when people aren't going in to get checked.
You know the numbers, there's millions of women just have
dropped out of the kind of you know, self detection
or detection. And it's terrible. You know, we have to
(20:50):
have this conversation. So you were twenty seven when your
mom died, and your mom was she waste, which is
so young. You said, had she have found it earlier,
she may not have died. So what happened? What was
her story? I don't think she wanted to find it,
you know. I think she probably kept it to herself.
(21:10):
She then went to a doctor that just misdiagnosed it,
and she didn't. You know, it was that it was
so different then. It was so different then it was
so like taboo like people you know, people didn't talk
about breast cancer. I mean, I've just done it. You know.
Now we talk about periods, we talk about you know, contraception,
we talk about different you know, the female body. By
(21:31):
the way, talk about touching your breasts. You know, there's
been a real shame and stigma about anything connected to
the female body, breast. I mean I said to my kids,
you to us. Vagina's exactly. Vagina is one of my
favorite words. I mean, I said to my son uncomfortably
the other day, literally a couple of weekends ago. I'm like,
and I'm really that awful mom. I'm like, Okay, how
(21:52):
do you feel about pubic hair? Because I did this
whole thing where I was so devastated that obviously porn
now there's no pubic hair and was like, and kids
are getting there at sex head from porn on which
I was the unrealistic example. I bought the domain for
bringing Back the Beaver dot com because I was like,
I'm going to do something about this, and then luckily
(22:12):
it became fashionable to have body hair again. I was like, okay,
I won't add that to my plate. But I have
those conversations with my kids. I'm like, okay, you're gonna
have pubic carey, you're not gonna have puper care? Why
are you? The other day I was with my son,
I was like, why is it that nipples are like rude?
Because we were swimming naked together. Because I'm I'm like,
I'm really adamant that I have to keep them being
(22:33):
I mean, a really old but you know, I want
I'm so I grew up so naked all the time,
and say, do you know there's a conversation there obviously
about how free you feel and what's appropriate. Obviously it's
changed now, but anyway, I was like, why is that rude?
And why is this not rude? And it's all, you know,
why all the sexual organs sort of taboom? Why can't
we talk about and why and why are they? Why
(22:56):
are they you know, why are they can only set
tualized as opposed to I mean, I also swim naked
with my kids and specifically with my son, and I
do it's got on my way to be like this
is what we look like, and and an older woman
as well, like, you know, it's important to me that
(23:16):
he sees a body that has carried three children, him
being one of them, and you know, he he sees
what an older bodies like. But I also had to
you know, his dad said to me at some point,
you know, I don't know if it's appropriate that it's
still going to see you naked anymore. And I said, well,
I'm just going to ask him, And I said, do
you feel uncomfortable? Um, if I'm naked around you, and
(23:37):
he was like, no, I don't care, and so I
had to go by that is your is your son
comfortable and comfortable mom? And can you stop it? Um? No, no, no,
it depends which one. But no, I don't. I mean
I haven't asked them. That's a good question. I haven't
really let them have a decision. They just asked if
I could put clothes on when their friends come over,
which of course I'm going to. I haven't done that either.
I just they're quite into it. I mean going to
(24:00):
get canceled at some stage this conversation like something is
not allowed to know something well, I mean inevitably with
you and I, we are going to say something that
this has been good. Okay, we're being really good. Okay,
So let's go back to um breast Cancer and Stella
Cares because I want you to talk a little bit
about this or your organization and what you do and
(24:24):
also why you decided to partner with Victoria's Secret on
this initiative. Yes, well, so, Stellar Cares is split into
two sellar Pink and Seller Green. The Green is the
sustainable side, which is very much create policy change incentives
in the industry of fashion to actually be more green
(24:45):
and to really kind of you know, dissect what work
needs to be done in making the business of fashion
cleaner and the pink side really at the moment is
so I did this thing guys with a Janina Jolie
and she had just had had her double mossectomy and
we were having tea and she was like, you really
(25:05):
need to sort out these missectomy bras because they're so horrific,
and you know, and they're horrible. They make make you
feel so unfeminine, they're so unsexy. Just they're just painful,
they're horrible, and you know, they just make you feel
even worse when you're going through the worst thing ever.
And obviously I saw my mom wear them and everything
was wrong about it. I was like, oh my god,
(25:26):
you know, she's getting burnt here, she's getting cut up there,
and on top of it all, you've lost all your
sort of femininity, You've lost it. You know, how can
I make women feel beautiful? Because there's such a deep
connection between in their sexuality, their relationships, their own self,
relationship with their own bodies and were so kind of layered,
(25:47):
and I was like, yes, absolutely, I must do that.
So I decided to make a double missectomy bra that
was beautiful and organic because a lot of those bras
are not made out of organic materials. And for me, like,
if you're going through those horrific, horrific operations, you want
to have your skin touched with something that feels it
(26:07):
hasn't got chemicals or it's not you know, not going
to add to your discomfort. So I went home and
we made at worker doubling sector me bra. And the
aim for the Pink really is to give away every
single woman on earth that has to go through a
double and sector me she will be given a breath
for free. So that is the the intent of the
(26:29):
Pink side of the foundation, and we're on a really
good track. And actually Victoria's Secret have given us an
amazing donation, so it's thanks to them also for you know,
being part of that story. And on one hand, I've
just been I've really been trying to communicate as well,
the conversation of breast cancer, not only obviously how many
(26:50):
women are dying from this every year, but also the
communities that are just destroyed and broken, and I feel
that I'm kind of one of them, and I'm trying
to have that conversation in a way that isn't sort
of sugarcoated. So, you know, we did this bra and
my teams were trying to take photos of it for
social media so we could launch it and we could
(27:11):
talk about it. And they sort of had the bra on,
you know, on on a closed line, and it was
sort of and I was like, no, no, no, I
need to see this on women. I want to see
their scars, I want to hear their stories, and I'm
not going to apologize for this, and we need to really, like,
you know, if people need to see this to know
that the truth Okay, that this is real. So we've
come at it in a really in a great way,
I think, and we've we've done a double set me wrong,
(27:33):
We've added us now, so we've gotten to like where
we're working on a swimwear one. So it's really just
trying to kind of bring this into these women's lives,
you know, so they can live their life and they
can still feel like a woman. Yeah, that was a
very long answer. I do apologize, No, it was. It's
great because when I think about, actually, you know, fashion
(27:54):
is your or I wouldn't even say fashion design is
your vehicle to communicate and to share your mission. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm very lucky in that sense. But I'm so privileged, Amanda.
I've I've had such a privileged upbringing and I've been
placed on this earth. God knows why, but I was
(28:15):
given a pretty good entry point into the situation. And
I just think, I feel like, what I'm gonna I'm
not going to do anything with that. Like, I think,
I'm so lucky that if people are interested or would
pay attention to me saying something that I want to
make it something that number one I really believe in.
And I'm not going to bullsh it and I'm not
(28:35):
going to lie about I'm not going to greenwash it.
I'm going to try and be as honest as I
can because I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to learn,
you know. And so I think, um, I wouldn't do
I wouldn't be able to go to work if I
didn't do these things. That really helps. But also I
feel so proud because you know, we're we're a modern
brand in the sense that people want to work in
(28:56):
a brand like this. You know, young people, I think
really feel proud that they're working for a brand that
would talk about breast cancer awareness and a lot of
fashion brands do. Actually to give our industry credit, we do.
We are good at breast cancer awareness, I think. But
it's part of the DNA of your company. I mean,
your this is your your company has been alive for
(29:16):
twenty years now, and advocacy has been built into your
company because it comes from you and that is part
of your life and your world and part of who
you are. We've all seen companies who are um, you know,
either coming to a realization that that is something that's
really that they need to find something that's important to them.
(29:38):
And I never think it's too late. I don't care.
Whenever people get the message and they want to do something.
And I've been looking at your what you've been doing
for so long and the partnership with vs and how
they have supported this vasecutly bra Is is fantastic because
women in every single country around the world is suffering
(29:59):
from breast cancer. I mean it's huge actually and also
so brilliant in a sense that you know, VSA of
their young brand, you know, like they've always been young girl.
You know, young girls want to buy into that brand.
So talking to that generation for this kind of conversation
is critical because I think almost shaming your mom or
your aunt or your grandma into checking herself, Like, you know,
(30:21):
that's really great. You know if we can sort of
sit and be heard by younger women. You're young, you know,
and they're like, you know what, Damn, I'm gonna go
ho I'm longing to tell my mom, will ask my
mom when when was she last checked? Or like make
her I'm going to go with her and I'm going
to sit there while you know those kind of I mean,
it would be amazing if we could get to a
stage as a society we're actually checking yourself or going
(30:44):
to get checked, became like a community thing, or it
became something that you're proud of, that you were loud
about that you were like, I'm gonna go get a
mam around. I love that instead of botox parties, we
could have breath checked party, cancer party. Yeah. And actually
it's funny. I've been talking to my guys about it
for years. We're like, you know, I'd love our stores
to be these communities. So I thought, I think we'd
(31:05):
love to kind of work to that. I think it's
really important to talk to young men and men about
this too, just because I think all those two booze
need to be they need, you know, more than ever.
We're having conversations about hard hitting topics in the world
were allowed to now, and I think we've really got
to give men permission to be part of this conversation
(31:25):
because you know, your husband's got to say, when did
you get checked? How would get mad at you when
you didn't what you say? It's not you know, this
isn't about you, This is about all of us. Well
that's actually what happened to me over COVID and I was,
you know, I shared this with you, but I had
a lump that I found and you know, not to
(31:46):
be too detailed about it, but you know, my husband
touches my breast more than I do, and so I said,
for twenty years. After twenty years, yeah, yes, still, oh
mind us too. Of course we can talk more about that.
But I was like, does this feel normal to you?
Is this is this normally here? And he was like,
(32:06):
it doesn't actually feel like it's normally there, and so
I was able to kind of check back with him
weirdly and uh, and I you know, and he took
me and I got it checked and it was inconclusive,
and then I had to have so that was a sonogram,
and then I had to go get a mammogram and
an ultrasound. And this went on over a three month
(32:30):
period because they had to come back and check it.
And that happened in your family, Amanda, No, and so
I had tested for the gene. No, may as well
me as well. I mean, yes, but I never had
an experience on what happened. I interrupted do. I never
had an experience. I never had to think about it
(32:51):
because no one close to me had it, no family member.
And suddenly I was thinking, oh, what does this mean
and what if? And for that three months period, I
was really terrified and a long time it really was.
And luckily it turned out to be absolutely fine. But
it really made me think about how I'm someone who's aware,
(33:12):
who reads things, who's, you know, pretty educated about about
my own mental and physical health. And I realized I
knew so little. And what I realized is that women
younger and younger are getting diagnosed with breast cancer. So
in fact, saying oh you need to wait till you're
fifty or forty five to get a mamogram, that age
needs to be younger, don't you think. Yeah, I mean, look,
(33:35):
the great thing about this conversation is self care and
sort of checking yourself is free of charge. You don't
have to go anywhere for it. You know, you don't
need to know a lot. You can just go online
and find a video of some kind of way of
knowing and anyway, Yeah, you must start that, Jesus as
soon as you are aware of it. You know, there's
no age on that. Um. But yeah, absolutely this is
(33:58):
not reserved sadly for the women. It's just not. And
also there's it's interesting I did so I would I
would do with my lingerie range. I would do each
season and I do UM, I make a pink bra
or pink set underwear set and proceeds. Some proceeds for
that go toward breast cancer awareness as well. And in
(34:18):
doing that, I had Kate Mosst did the first one,
and then Chelsea Handler did it, Kara did it. Then
I was like, wait, I'm not sorry, you know, let's
talk about race here because I've got all these sort
of you know, friends doing it, but what happens with
black women and breast cancer? And I found out that
I was like like higher mortality rate in black women
(34:38):
because of the stigma attached in getting checked and the
kind of taboo of having those conversations. So then Alicia
Keys very kindly became my next awareness on that and
her mother actually had breast cancer twice. Thank god she's
still with us. But it was amazing that the kind
of knowledge that yeah, we don't know. I mean I
never would have known that, you know. And then going
(34:59):
to all these enters in Harlem. I went to this
great center, slow and catching center in Harlem, um in
that community, and I was like, it was it's a
free SECRUW breast screening center and nobody knows about it
because in America don't know about three sources. You know,
people don't know about it. In America, nothing's for free
and health. And I was like, how do you get
the community in, Like how do you let people know
(35:21):
church word of mouth? You know, so that it's the
kind of thing you don't want to know about, you know,
like we don't want to know this information, um, but
you don't want to find out about it when it's
you know, when it's too late. Absolutely, Well, I really
hope that this partnership that you're doing with VS will
(35:42):
allow that disinformation to be shared widely and globally, because
the more people that know about this, I know about
the work that you're already doing, the better. UM. I
want to go back to I want to go back
to um COVID time, and UM, I was you know,
(36:03):
it was so interesting, Like I know you well and
for a long time, so I never sort of researched
my friends, and I think I miss so much of
what they do. Um. You know, I had to interview
Gwyneth for some lifetime achievement thing and I had no
idea she'd done so many movies. I could only name
like three of them. Um, and so I had to
do three. We're not even going to get into that,
but but um, but so I was really I was
(36:26):
doing all this research on you and realizing, oh my gosh,
you have done so much. What an incredible career and
life that you've had, which I knew. But but one
of the things that I loved reading UM was that
you had said during COVID that you had rewritten a
mission for yourself, and I wanted to talk to you
(36:50):
about Well, you said you said you had written a
personal manifesto. Yeah, I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to.
I just sort of couldn't sleep well. Actually, know what
it was is, I had two weeks when COVID kind
of locked down in the UK. I was lucky enough
to go to our farm and have all our kids around.
It was two weeks before this kind of reality came
(37:12):
into play where you just went back to back meetings
on on a computer and I was kind of like, god, what.
I just had a moment to pause and I sort
of said to myself, why would you come to my
fashion house? Like why does this world need the brands done? McCartney?
Is this really important? Like is this necessary? And I
(37:34):
found myself just saying, God, you know what, Actually, if
this isn't important in my industry to do the work
that I'm really doing and not just talking about doing,
but really really doing here, I was just like, you know,
I've got to because until my business model is replaced
in my industry by the by the majority, then I
(37:54):
really have work to do. Um And so then I
sort of thought, well, what is it that I do
and what is that we do here and that we
believe in here? And so then I wrote this manifesto
and the manifesto. Can you share what was in that
or a little bit of it it actually became and yeah,
it became. Actually what we did was we made it
(38:15):
into an alphabet. So it's the Z of of words
that we stand for and that we believe in. So
m A is for accountability, um SEE is for conscious,
um Z is for zero waste, is for organic, um
M is for mindful, ks for kindness. So I just
(38:36):
sort of we did we put a word that we
believed it was really important to our core values. We
put it into an alphabet, and then we put we
did a collection that was all all sustainable. So we've
made dresses out of all of the old prints that
we have held onto et Stella because most fashion brands
burn them or they bury them, and we kept them
(38:57):
and so it was great. I was like, finally I
can use all these prints and so we may these
zero waste dresses out of sort of. I think each
dress had like nine prints, nine different seasons in it.
And my team were like, we can't do that because
we're going to run out of print. The buyers might
want X amount of dresses and we might only be
able to give them, you know, five, And I was like, great,
let's only give them five limited edition. I don't care,
(39:18):
like you know, we had and it was just such
a great It was just a great way to reset,
reset what we believe in here, you know, because sometimes
business just kind of takes over and it's it was great.
It's been really enjoyable and where you you know, we
use it all the time. Now. When you were talking
about realizing that you you know that what your mission
(39:41):
and what your your company stands for, even that experience
of doing these limited edition did it make you rethink
how you do business? Yeah, I mean I think I'm
always resetting and rethinking here. It's like I might get
uncomfortable if I do stuff too, you know. I'm always like,
oh that feels a bit comfortable, let's change it. So
I'm sort of of a nightmare in that respect. But well,
(40:03):
you're you're a rule you're a risk taker. You are
I'm a rule breaker there probably if that I'll take
that as a bloody compliment. I'll tell you, actually, that
is a huge compliment, thank you. It is because people
get afraid and they want to stay in the same
thing because it is work to be to move the system,
(40:25):
move the set up and get people to actually adjust
to what you're thinking in a different way. That is
a lot of work for for an entire company. It
is a lot of work. And my company will be
the people that work with me here will be the
first people to agree with you, and I drive them
crazy and it is so much work and sometimes they
need to tap me on the shold and go whool,
(40:46):
slow down, stall, and like we're still doing what you
told us to do a year ago, was do you know?
But um yeah, for me, it's like it's been really exciting.
So in that period, we kind of ran out of waste,
like all you know, we had old T shirts. Maybe
it kind of got you know, we're no longer relevant,
and we would they were going to sail or, you know,
and I was just like, let's use up all our waists,
(41:08):
and so we kind of used that. We've used up
all our waists now here in the brand. So now
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna use somebody else's waist. So
we're doing that now. Wait, you're getting materials from other companies,
so now people's ways. I want to just talk quickly
about the complete bullshit myth about women having it all
because I think that needs to be abolished from our language,
(41:31):
because parenting, having a relationship, take care of yourself, and
having a job doing it without something suffering or something
taking it here at some point it's impossible. And I
wanted to get your perspective on that. Well. I mean,
I think we all as working moms or I mean,
(41:51):
if you bring the parenting thing in, you're constantly you
don't ever feel like you're delivering. If you're working, you
don't feel like you're delivering on being a good enough parent,
and you're not they're enough, And if you're not at work,
you're not there enough. So you sort of concept, but
I don't know. For me personally, I'm constantly torn that
I didn't stay in the office until twelve o'clock to
finish the Heam line of address because I wanted to
(42:12):
get home to put my kids to bed at seven
and cuddle them. So no, I don't think anyone, I mean,
does anyone have it all? Though? I mean, like what
and by the way, what is having it all exactly like?
Because I don't know if I want it all. I
don't want it all. I'm so good to go, like
you know, I'm I'm happy with nothing in a field
(42:34):
as long as I've just got those little babies and
my health, my loved ones. Like you know what, health
is wealth. I couldn't agree with you more. And knowing
that you that that is the most important thing to
you means that anything else is just a gift on
top of it, because you're good with the baseline. Health
is wealth. It is literally all that we have. You
(42:58):
have nothing if you don't have your health, and if
you don't have love and health. I am right now
in this moment feeling my love and friendship for you,
and I'm healthy, and you know I could want for
nothing more. You're very good at this, Amanda, but this
is what you do. You're quite major, aren't you, babe.
I'm so proud of you. Thank you, and I love you, Amanda.
(43:23):
I love you, Stella. This is VS Voices, a brand
new original podcast series by Victoria's Secret. Listen here or
wherever you get your podcasts.
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