April 14, 2022 • 44 mins
LF and DK are joined by Brown professor and afrofuturist rapper/producer Sammus (aka Dr. Enongo Lumumba-Kasongo to discuss the relationship of lyric-craft to beatmaking, surviving academia, creative and emotional revelations during the Covid pause, and Dr. Lumumba-Kasongo's upcoming tour.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are now listening to Waiting on Reparations production of
I Heart Radio. Yeah, yeah, you're listening to Waiting on Reparations. Indeed,
ladies and gentlemen, I'm not even going to mess around
or make you wait too long, because we don't want
to wait. Today's episode is kind of special for us,
(00:25):
you know, like it's only so often we're always trying
to book interesting guests on this show, and every now
and then we get the opportunity to book somebody who
were both very enamored with. And even though you read
the description and you've seen who it is, I'm gonna
let Mariah handle the introduction because she has it all
(00:45):
written out, is perfect, so we're just gonna get into it.
So without further ado. Oh jeez, how do I you
get do? How do I really have the honor of
introducing our guest today? Well? I guess today. Sam's a
k A DR And I'm the Kasongo and After. A
futurist rap artist and producer from Ethnica, New York. She
holds a PhD in Science and Technology Studies from Cornell
(01:08):
It is currently a professor in the music department at
Brown University. There's a law more that could be said
about cap Law. You are Dr Samis, but let's let
that unfold in the conversation. So first off, I love
to love to ask people. This is my favorite thing
to ask people these days. Everybody else, Oh how are you?
And you're like, well, good, But what has been the
highlight of your day so far? Today? Oh? The highlight
(01:29):
of my day. I made some amazing eggs for breakfast. Yea,
the most important meal of the day. Oh yeah, what's
your what's your secret to amazing eggs? Well, I'm a
terrible chef, so um. I recently have been putting butter
into my eggs and them just have this more savory
(01:52):
um kind of texture, like good mouth feel. So yeah,
I felt really excited because I'm just such a terrible up.
So what I'm able to make something that it's somewhat tasty.
It's like it's an accomplished goost your self esteem so
much like, yeah I did that. I like body and
like cooking for yourself like a form of self care.
(02:14):
It sure is, but it's hard to like it is
you know, real for real people who who understand the practice.
It's like there's so much commitment. You gotta just prep
like just figuring out all the formulas. As chemistry, it's
a lot having the right like spices and like implements.
(02:35):
You tend to the tools, all right, tools like I
don't even have like a meat mentor like what are
you telling me? Too much eggs? To make some good eggs? Man,
that will start your day, right, Um well, let's get
on to them to find out a little bit about
what you've been up to. Because last time I saw you,
I'm pretty sure it was in d C at Songbird
(02:55):
Cafe and the day, Yeah, for this day, your encouragement,
like we talked of the crowd and you're really encouraging
to me about my PhD it stuff, And I was like,
oh my god, to this day I remember that, but
I was too out the nineteen and a lot has
happened since then. So what has transpired in your last
two and a half years as an academic and a
cultural worker? Yeah? So, um so, basically in two thousand nineteen,
(03:21):
I was just wrapping up my my dissertation. Um so,
let me actually rewind to the top of the year.
So I was like looking at my my dissertation kind
of being finished, and like what was next? And I
was feeling like, Okay, I'm gonna be a full time
working musician. I had zero plans to continue into the academy.
I was like, peace, I'm done with that. Um. And
(03:44):
then a mentor of mine, UM Dr Jennifer Stover, who's
written this amazing book called The Sonic Color Line, she
reached out to me and was like, hey, have you
seen this post doc at Brown for someone who teaches
in like Afro disport music making, And I feel like
this might kind of be up your alley. UM. So
I was like sure, I tied to it, and then
(04:05):
actually got it and was like whoa, that was unexpected.
But then it was also this kind of o ship
moment because I had to have my PhD by the
start date, and the start date was in July, and
I did not yet have a PhD. So it was like, Okay,
I have to make this happen in the next four
to five months. So um that that semester was like
(04:29):
the worst inmester of my life. I was writing like
I had a gun into my head. It was so stressful,
and I had I worked with a dissertation writing coach
who would just like she would just push me like
you gotta keep writing today. So it was really really difficult,
but I finished it in time and I was able
to graduate and UM and then ended up moving to
(04:50):
Providence in twenty to start composition UM for the fall semester.
So it was I mean, it was a trip like
we could talk about. But yeah, that that sounds Yeah
that just give me very deeply because um, you know,
I'm both time, my discinsion done in three weeks, and
my mental health is just not right. Not only that,
(05:15):
it's like impacting how I'm treating other people. That's the
thing that's like not cool. I'm like I can saw her,
it's fine, but like I'm like yelling at people everything.
It affects everything. When you're under that that that kind
of timeline and stress and constraint, and when you're deep
in the project like that, it's it's so difficult to
just be in like a clear mental health space. So
(05:38):
I I completely completely understand that space and I can't
wait for you to be free of it. Certainly, was
all that stuff that went down, was that pre or
post pandemic that was free? That was pandemic? Yeah, yeah, um,
And it's funny because I was I was on tour
at the beginning of twenty nineteen, and I remember I
(05:59):
was like in back of the van, like trying, just
desperately trying to write, like you know, everyone's had having
a key key living their best life, and I was
there as hell because it was like I don't get
to critake and anything. I just have this this theme,
this demon looming over my my my head. Um. So yeah.
Then I moved to Providence from Philly. I was in
Philly for four years um, and then came up to
(06:22):
Providence and that's been it's been a trip being here
and getting situated. It's a different experience. And then halfway
through my first year was when the pandemic unfolded. So
then I moved back to Philly and was there for
two for the remainder of the year and into the
next year. And now I'm back in Providence after having
(06:43):
like taught online basically for the more set and stable
now in terms of like yeah, yeah, like and during
I should mention that during that two year period, I
was just at Brown as a post doc, so I thought, okay,
I got to figure out my next steps. And then
I was extended and offered to be an assistant professor.
(07:05):
So it was like, Okay, I have a little bit
more um like time, the timeline is different now because
I was thinking during the pandemic, I'm also gonna have
to figure out what the next step is. So it
was a little bit of stability after a few years,
but just not not really knowing. So, how has like
academia f at all. I mean, you're already you know
(07:27):
in I guess at Cornell for eight years things, so
so like, particularly with the pandemic and now you're taking
on a new prefectorial role, how has that influenced, like
your ability to make art um? As it informed in
any way? Lord? Well, so the first thing is it informed?
(07:49):
It be in the sense that I haven't really been
able to make that much art um because I was
so I realized this um like into maybe March or
April of twenty when lockdown was sort of like when
we were in lockdown, but I was so burnt out.
I was so completely fried and just had not really
(08:12):
processed it and had kind of accepted that as like
the normal pace of things that like, yeah, you should
be trying to do five million things and tour and
right and be in conversation and do this and the third.
So when we had to slow down, UM, I cracked hard.
I was like, I don't want to do anything. I
don't want to use my brain to do anything. My
(08:35):
brain is at least yeah. So really, for for the
past to two wish years, I've been more focused on
UM two projects. One of them is UM. It's a
video game project with some friends who started a studio
(08:56):
UM called glow Up Games, and we're working on this
project and they've wanted someone to come in who has
kind of a rap background to engineer this like rap mechanic.
So I it's like it was a very specific skill
set that I was able to sal for this this
game project. So I've been working on some rhymes to
kind of figure out this like rhyme mechanic in the game.
(09:19):
And then the other project is working with a friend
of mine. She's an incredible MC named a Ku and
Naru UM and she is She's developed this idea to
to to create a digital archive UM that traces the
contributions of women and girls in hip hop over the
past fifty years. So UM like contributing in that way
(09:42):
has been really like gratifying, but as far as making
my own stuff, I haven't. I haven't even had the
I feel like the focus to just sit and write.
And I think it's it's um it's like a scary
space for me right now because I think revisit it
in the page is like I think sitting with the
(10:04):
um you know, the trauma of the past few years,
just you know, like I had these upcoming shows and
I'm realizing, Man, I haven't performed live in two and
a half years, Like what is that going to feel? Like? Like,
am I you know, have I lost it? Do I
still have like all these questions that sort of emerge
around creation that I've been trying to avoid for the
(10:28):
past two years that now I have to get back into.
But yeah, it's so interesting the way that paused and
impacted folks differently, Like it didn't slow things down for everyone,
but some found a lot of creative energy and that
slow down other people and it was a moment for
them to actually assess like there where they were at
and like actually, no, this is not cool, you know.
(10:50):
And yeah, the various ways that like that like slow
down really allowed people to things to emerge, things to
emerge that everyone had been ignoring or not really. You know,
I had like I had like two two sides of
that when the pandemic hit. Like the first half of
Lockdown was like, oh man, nothing matters. What is art?
(11:14):
There's there's no purpose or point in any of those.
And then the second half was like, oh wait, things
are gonna be fine. Okay, what's Yeah, the starter started
writing like all over the points. Yeah, that's real, and
I like it impacted me in waves. So I think
when Lockdown first started, you know, I was just kind
(11:35):
of perplexed, like Okay, well, what's what's going to happen
with this universe? And had kind of these existential crises
of like like you said, what is what is a wrap?
What is what is creativity? But then I remember, I
don't even remember what happened, but there was one day
where I suddenly felt this deep pain and I missed
(11:56):
the performance space. And it was like very specific things
like I missed writing my set list, like scribbling it
down at the beginning of the set, or I missed
like the sticky floors of dive bar. Yeah, you know,
like all of these kind of textual things that maybe
you don't immediately identify as like the most important part
of being an artist. But they add you know, they
(12:17):
add joy to your your experience. So I felt a
really acute pain in that particular moment, and so I
feel like it's it's ebbed and flowed. Um. But now
I feel much more purpose driven than I was at
the at the top of the thing. At the top,
it was like me and Mariah both recently started doing
shows again and stuff too. So you you will, you will,
(12:40):
you will enjoy it. It's it's like a vike. I'm
pretty sure my first show I played, though, I like
just forgot a lot of the lyrics because you're so
love the memory and you played so much you don't
worry about I got up there and I was like,
what is this song? Yeah, that's what I'm not trying
to say that to scare you know, but like, you know,
(13:03):
I was way too high the first one that I
did back, like, I ran like my voice was shot.
After like the first verse of the first song, I
was like, oh, crap, I gotta go through thirty more minutes.
This is not gonna work practically, case on a physiological level,
like I actually I just went to a jazz uh
(13:24):
kind of show yesterday, and you know, the music was incredible,
but I was so focused on the performers because it
was like physically like they are just at the top
of their game to be able to do what they
were doing for thirty minutes straight, and it was stressing
me because I was like, dang, I haven't been really
will I be able to be in that kind of shape?
(13:46):
Like my voice, my my memory like all that stuff.
How's it going to function in the when it's game time.
But it's good to know that you all have have
gotten back on the stage, like thank god. And it's
a little creeky and first of the cree you buy
such getting back on you know, I mean the ross
a little bit of gears, but it goes like it's crazy.
One of the things that I like it was coming
(14:09):
to grips with during the pandemic and stuff, was how
much of being like an m C or artists whatever
you want to call it, Like, how much of that
was part of like my identity since I've been since
I was eighteen, you know, so like things like you
were just describing like the stickiness of a dive, but
like to me, that's like literally like yeah, that's life.
(14:31):
You know what I mean. It's it's it's it's it's
suthing I identified with so much that I don't know,
like to finally get back on stage and to finally
be in those atmospheres again, I don't know. It feels
it feels like a wholeness is like return that that
wasn't there for a while. So it's spiritual. It's definitely,
I mean, what we do as performers, I have a
(14:54):
new if anything came out of this, like in if
I feel really strongly positively about some part of this
is that I am recognizing the work that we do,
like the role that we do and not just making culture,
but like shaping people's real lives experiences like yeah, I'm sorry,
(15:17):
I didn't cut you. What would you say? No, I
was just saying shoutouts shout on the show. So that's
all good. Well, speaking of things that influence us and
shape us. You know, we are a music podcasts were
also politics podcast, so I had to ask about So
you are the grand niece of the Prime Minister of
(15:38):
Congo Patrica MoMA, who advocated for self determination for the
Congist people at a time as they were transitioning away
from clonialism. Ultimately, it was assassinated for his revolutionary ideas
and he was killed long before you were born. But
I wondered if his legacy has influenced you in anyway
and how that period in the Congo impacted your family history. Yes, sure,
(16:00):
thank you so much for that question. Um, And it's
funny because well maybe it's not funny, but my my dad, um,
he's I love my dad, but he's so um. I
don't have a better way to put it. He's like shady.
I love him, but he's like he just he won't
tell you what he's doing. Like he'll call you like
I'm in South Africa. It's like okay, well what are
(16:22):
you doing and it's like click and then he'll be
support that type of stuff. So like when I was
a kid, he didn't really talk about this amazing figure
who was part of our shared history. I didn't. I
didn't have any understanding that I was connected to this person.
But it was actually like my history and social studies
(16:43):
teachers who would be like Lamamba, like are you there're
a relationship here? Like they would be like fan girling
and fan boying, and I didn't really understand, like what
was happening. So finally that produced like conversations with my
dad about like who is this person and like why
are people feeling this way about his legacy? And through
(17:03):
there I started to understand that just the radical importance
of him as a figure protected particularly I think in
in that era in the sixties, but then like globally
as this figure of resistance. Like for our listeners, do
you mind just like given like a brief little recap
(17:23):
of La Mumba was Yes. So Patrice Lammba was the
first democratically elected Prime Minister of the Congo UM and
he was really pushing for a kind of um anti colonialists.
They they wanted to be able to govern for themselves.
And Belgium was the I mean, had committed atrocities in
(17:47):
the scale of Holocaust UM and so he was kind
of the figure who was able to push to that place.
And then he was assassinated in nineteen sixty one by
by the CIA, essentially UM for you know, inciting this
kind of new political space. UM. So he really is
a figure and I realized that in going to the
(18:08):
continent in various countries that he remains a kind of
like revolutionary figure for UM thinking about freedom fighting and
then in terms of the like how that's shaped my work. Um,
I hadn't really completely thought about it until like I
was much older, and a lot of discussions about like
(18:31):
what kind of music you make came up specifically like
I don't know if you've ever experienced this, Mariah, where
like being a woman in rap is a very interesting
space because you will often be positioned against women who
you don't even necessarily have. There's no beast, there's no
(18:52):
drama there, so people will be like, oh, thank god
you don't wrap like Cardi, or they'll they'll position women
who are coming from a particular lyrical tradition or intellectual
tradition against women who are coming from a space where
they may be making party music or like strip club
fantasy music, whatever that is. And so I really started
to think about, like why do I make the music
(19:13):
that I make? And I think part of it is
that I want to be in conversation with Lamombo these
ideas around um like what a free space would look
like for you know, black people, and um, like that's
what I'm drawn to the music for. Um. Of course,
everybody has their reasons, but I think that's part of
(19:35):
why I feel like I'm called to make that specific
brand of music. Although I would love to make some
party music at some point, I'm just bad at Like, yeah,
whether something is like a party joint or not is
strictly based on like who's taking it in you can
part it. I've I've listened to some of your stuff
(19:57):
and I felt like, man, this is some real feel
good Yeah. I mean like like like I wish I
could make that, So I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
But yeah, I thank you for asking that that question,
because it doesn't always come up out or come up um,
(20:17):
but it is an important threat I think that I'm
trying to gesture towards. So now I'm wondering, did you like,
did you grow up in the States? Yeah? Yeah, I
was born in upstate New York Keepsie and then grew
up in Ithaca. Um, so like too shitty upstate New
York down So I was like, why, parents, why are
(20:40):
you doing this? Like why? Um? And you know, especially
because they hate the cold, like they hate the cold
more than me. It's like, why would you do this?
The bag got to secure the bag, I guess, and
the intellectual bag also not just like the bag bag
but like the you know right right, I mean, like yeah,
they're they're happy they had their their intellectual community, but
(21:00):
it is whole. So I grew up there and um yeah,
we we went back to visit family, not on my
dad's side, not in the Congo the first time and
the only time I've been to the Congo was in
for as part of my my dissertation research. But um,
and that's where I saw the love for Patrice Lamm
(21:21):
but like in practice, like his picture is still emblazoned places. Um.
But we visited family in the Ivory Coast, which is
where my mom is from. And I used to I
used to live in uh, Sierra Leone when I was
like when I was when I was As a matter
of fact, I think that's gonna go into one of
(21:41):
my rised questions coming up about ny Jamison. Yeah do
you know that about mac I did? Is this? God? Yeah? Wow? Yeah,
she's like really good friends with my mom and my dad.
And when I was a baby in Freetown, serle On,
(22:03):
like she she she nursed me for when I was
like really sick and like brought me to health. Then yeah,
yeah she's how was this just now coming up in
the conference, why was why was did you not leave?
I'm sorry, I've just been wanting to hear you talk.
We we have like a lot in common the whole
time you've been talking and stuff like that. But my
(22:25):
mother's Liberian, my father's American. He worked in the State Department,
so that's how they met. And um, like the first
few years of my life, we were in Sierra Leone
and then Liberia. Then the war started, so we came
to the States and my mom wanted us. She like
after the war, she wanted to like go somewhere far
(22:47):
from Africa, so we went to Toronto for three years experience.
She experienced three years of Toronto summer. We lived in
Africa till I was nineteen. Ever gonna to do it right?
What yo? I'm literally I'm shaking in my boots right now.
(23:07):
This is crazy, Like I this woman like since I
was a kid, Like I remember, my mom was very
intentional about introducing this woman to me, to give me
this real life superhero. I've gone to see her speaking
multiple times. That's so cool. I wish we could be
in person, so I touch your hand or something. I
(23:34):
had to bring that up sending you will get kicked
out of it. Thank you, bless the chat. Fool of
just firing like legacies that we're carrying on that it's funny,
Like it's funny doing this show for the last two years.
Is that's been like my I guess, um awakening as
to how like revered a figure she is For me,
(23:56):
it's always been like, oh, yeah, you know, it just
family talking to Mariah, talking to other people. It's like,
oh wait, I guess, yeah, I guess that is kind
of a big deal. Like I mean, it's kind of
like can you think about like Blue Ivyes, he's just
like my mom is my mom is a Beyonce you
know what I mean, Like people who have these iconic
(24:19):
figures who are in their lives, but they're just you know,
the role that they take is just like caregiver, you know,
not just but it's caregiver or person I cuddle with
verse of my Like, let's transition into back to talking
about music a little bit. Um. Very interested in your
process of song creation because you're a producer. You started
(24:39):
off making beats first, is my understanding, and then you
brought in rapping. So I'm wondering how beats and rhymes
influence one another for you in that process of song creation. Yeah,
thank you for that. It's a great question. UM. So
I generally, like I've had to give some talks on songwriting,
so I've been thinking a lot about this UM recently,
(25:01):
but I don't really UM and I don't know if
other m cs do this, but I don't really start
with words for I can't. I have to have a
beat that i'm writing towards or two. UM. I think
maybe one time in my life have I ever had
words form and then try to craft something to fit
those those words? UM. Generally, I feel like it's such
(25:23):
an embodied experience of listening that your flow emerges from
like how you're moving, UM, to the to the production.
So I usually will produce something not with a with
a a kind of like content in mind for what
I want to say, and maybe something will come up
in that moment. Maybe I just put it in, you know,
(25:45):
put it away, put set it aside, and then when
something emerges for me as a topic, it's like, okay,
let me go back and see what's there that can
kind of like fit with this thing. So UM, definitely
the beat shapes the uh flow and generally what I'm
talking about or speaking towards um, although I do I
(26:07):
do want to trouble that a little bit, like with
what we were talking about with party music, you know, like,
is there a way I want to be more experimental
in the future with taking sounds that I associate with
sort of like fun, care free existence and mapping that
onto you know, my songs about insecurity or whatever whatever
(26:30):
other like mental health crisis I'm dealing. Can I marry
these two things together in a in a more experimental way.
Definitely can. And like I think that's like the that's
the cheat code, you know, it's just like it's it's
there's like there's something about the quality of like that
sort of music, like you know, from an instrumental standpoint,
(26:52):
that's kind of just it lures people in that I
think once you have them, you can be talking about
whatever the funk you want in between it, and you
know what I'm saying there there, you're you're gonna be
able to if your intention is to like persuade or
to turn heads or to give insight or whatever, wrapping
on the stuff that you would think you shouldn't wrap on,
(27:14):
to wrap that sort of stuff too. I think that's
like that's the key moving forward, so I can't wait
to hear it. I was just gonna ask um, like,
who are some influences that you have, just like m
m c wise or even producer wise. Okay, so m
(27:35):
c wise, I would say, kind of in like my
my immediate frame of reference. I really like open Mike
Eagle a lot like he to me. It's just like
he's so introspective. I feel like I understand the contours
of his brain through his musical exactly. Like he's he's
(27:58):
very um Like when I teach, I'm always telling my
students about like specificity, like be specific, be specific, and
I think Mike Eagles very specific like his his references
give you a real snapshot into who he is as
like a thinker and a person. Um. So he's definitely
somebody that I appreciate. I also really like um more mother. Uh,
(28:22):
she's she's kind of like noise wrap punk god. Like
her description on a band camp is so amazing to
me because it's just like, hold, I gotta pull this
up because it always we play like new like clips
for music for people on the show all the times,
introducing a net Yes, So she calls herself low fi,
(28:46):
dark rap, chill step, black Girl Blues, which rap, coffee Shop,
Riot Girls song, Southern Girl, Diddy's black Ghost, like where
who I Throw the money? So like she she's really
dope because she's just interweaving all of these kind of
like sonic spaces in her work, and she she is
(29:08):
a producer as well. She works with free jazz artists.
Like she's just very she doesn't care about boundaries, And
I think that's really compelling to me as as an
insane and obviously Mariah, I'm a fan. I think that
you're like so incredible and just brilliant and and such
a great performer too, which is not always like being
(29:33):
able to hear it and then also see it. Has
I got, you know, some minutes after this is somewhere
I can just go join. Thank you so much for that.
That means a lot, because I do look up to
you a great deal and love be music as well. Um,
And actually, you know, one way I want to ask
you about because like people ask me about this all
(29:54):
the time, and so and I read in an interview
I think it was with loud and quiet, and they
just I view was exercising your demons through music, And
I wondered if you actually if you would describe it
that way, because and I feel like that's an interesting
why people often characterize music that is about very vulnerable topics. Yeah,
(30:16):
that um, exercising my demons. I think I appreciate you
like maybe like pushing back against that that framing, because
I mean it definitely has felt like a survival mechanism,
like I have to express this or I'm going to
(30:37):
explode or implode, like they're a kind of desperation around
having to speak to that um. But as far as exercising,
like I mean, the demons are still there, first of all,
you know, like that's just gonna be there. But I
think it is about like maybe like chatting with the
devas or like being being you know, being conversation or
(31:01):
exposing them rather than like through the music. I'm not,
I don't feel this anymore. Like that's not the case
I think for for those of us who struggle within
these you know, whether it's a chemical imbalance or a
particular situation or a lifelong and trauma that you're dealing with,
Like the idea that there's sort of an end to it,
(31:22):
you release it into the world and then it's no
longer with you. Is not necessarily how I would characterize
the musical process for me, but it is it is.
It provides a lens. Like when I make a music
about the thing, I think I can see it for
what it is, like articulate what is going on, and
maybe understand it a little bit better. But I don't
know if it's if it's exercised, like I appreciate the
(31:45):
word what you wor did that talking to the demons
and like, you know, like you're just having conversation and
understanding them better. And I think the idea of like
demonizing our troubles even like it's not very rare to
feel depression. It's odd rare to feel these things, so
like they're not necessarily like evil forces to be cast out.
(32:05):
They're just right human things that are demonized because we
don't talk about them, and then you talk about them,
so then they for other people also are demonized. Making
the song is the act of talking about it, like
you know what I mean, that's the um. So you're
you're gonna be going out on the road soon, right,
because we were talking earlier about you got some shows
(32:26):
coming up, I do, but you can hear you hear
the stress of my voice. Um. Yeah, So I'm gonna
be in May. I have some shows on the well.
I have one show up here in New England and
then uh four shows with a friend of mine, Mega Rand.
I think actually you might have h He's great. He's
(32:50):
just such a supportive, um like music friend. He always
will put you on. He's always going to figure out
a way to to like help out the homies. So
he actually he want to go on a longer tour,
and I was like, I can only do four days,
Like your girl is rusty, Like, just let me do
my week and come home and reassess. So I'll be
(33:12):
on the West Coast for four days and then I
have one more show in New England and then it's
like I chill, which feels like a good a nice
first um like entrance back into it. Like if I
had two or three weeks, I feel like I'd be
broken down by by the top of week two. I
don't think I ever want to do more than a
week ever. Again, I didn't realize how better that was
(33:34):
from my mental health before until I stopped it, and
I was like, I've become more. I think that's I
think that's because like the natural state, like the older
you get when you're if you're still in the game,
you know, you eventually get to a point where it's like, man,
I think a good week log runs about the max
for me because I remember back in Yo. I think
this was going on tour for like a month and
(33:56):
ship like you're coming back with all kinds of crazy bills,
like just all completely out of whack and yeah, like
it was like punds from eating fast food all the time. Yeah, man,
it's so hard. It's a rough rough. I mean, yeah,
(34:17):
that that part for sure, Like I don't think I
can really deal with all of the my my older
body is just like girl, no, it's not it. That's
why I was super impressed at the super Bowl, like
all these old bas niggas like Snoopy and like Dr
Gray like up there like holding down like that's really like,
(34:40):
but I was I saw some behind the scenes thing
and I forget it was it. It was either Red
Man or Method Man or it was like dip set,
but it was like them like recently and they're on
the tour bus after a show and they're like, yo,
there's so much Ben Gay on this bus right now,
We're all that's where stuff. How far away is? Uh?
(35:15):
How far I was? I was looking at my tour
dad saying if I was going to be anywhere near
Rhode Island, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be like in
New hamp Yeah. So one of these dates, one of
these dates so listeners can go out find tickets and
come see you and experience thank you. Yeah, I don't
even know. I'm like, I'm going on tour at some point.
Let me like actually pull that up. Um, So the
(35:36):
date the tour starts on um May thirteen at the
Waking Windows Festival in Vermont, and then the May is
the West Coast Seattle down to San Diego, and then
May nineteen, I'll be in New Hampshire and then back
home for people who haven't heard your music before. So
(36:00):
you're gonna go You're about to get back on the
road after a hiatus not being on the road, so
you're probably gonna have a lot of fans and a
lot of people who have been following you that are
now going to get the chance to see you again.
So what is like, what are like two of the
songs two of the joints where you feel, oh man,
I gotta do these if if people are gonna be
(36:21):
coming there to see me and they've been listening to
my music over the years. Uh so, I mean I
perform a song called ten a d P if I
think at every show chan who had to be comfortable here?
I never feel like I'm allowed to breathe rubbins should
nerds with the old nerds rocket swin of them, just
because I think it's important. I feel like you were
(36:44):
saying right, just that this to create a space where
people can see someone in conversation with the difficult parts
of their their experience. Um so I do that song.
And then there's another song it's not released yet, and
I um wants to like, you know, at some point
I need to record this thing. But it's a song
(37:07):
called two Hands, and it's almost I've framed it as
a response to ten a DP in the sense that, um,
you know, like uh, I started to have this kind
of weird thing happened at shows where people would be
like do ten a DP, or like do your depression song,
and it's like wait a minute, like I don't this
(37:30):
doesn't feel good. This doesn't feel good being asked to
just like like perform the pain, like come through and
perform your pain for us. Like that felt weird. So
I wanted to, you know, like there's this weird exploitative
element that can come up when you're being vulnerable. So
I wrote two Hands, which is a song about just
like the things that I find joy in even being
(37:52):
a broken person. It's like there's still things that just
the fact that we can create is actually fucking and
cry able, like that's wild that we can make stuff
from our brains, and then people will sit with it
like what the hell. So that's what the song is about.
And I like to perform it after ten a d
P to be like right now people looking it can
(38:13):
only hear that at a show. Yeah, but it will.
It will be recorded at some point soon and all
the all the the rest of the songs on this
next project, it will be on the Well, get out
there and go through some of these shows if you're nearby. Also,
I just want to say about quick when you said
two hands, I thought of that line from body morphe
You're like, I thought like clop of black, I got
(38:34):
on p of all the Hands. I was like Oh,
she doesn't been all the way. It's like really getting
which maybe that's the continent of the song. I don't know.
I guess I gotta come to one of your shelves
so you're not so where can imry? Wait? Where can
people find I'm just gonna I'm closing up to I
was just gonna say, wherehere can people find you if
(38:55):
they're looking for you online? Uh? So I have been
really trash about posting, like so you can. You can
see my Instagram posts from like me, it's Samy's music.
Everything is Samy's music A S A M M U
S music. UM. And I'm trying to you know, this
(39:17):
is another part of the anxiety of being an artist
that you have to be very online, you know, so
like you know, dealing with that, like, oh, I have
to promote the shows on the tour. I need to
probably tell people that there is a tour coming. Um.
So I'll be a little bit more online over the
next month or so, and then you can just go
to Sama's music dot com for my music stuff and
(39:38):
then in ago dash lk dot com to go see
my like other stuff that I'm working, things that I'm
writing about like that kind of stuff. Well, thank you
so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Um,
good luck out there. You know, treat yourself well away
on the road and in general general. Everyone, Yeah, for sure.
(39:58):
And if y'all, If y'all are ever like providences between
Boston and New York, so if you're going or planning
an East Coast tour, like, just plan a stop in
Providence and we can let's like figure out a show
for y'all. Ah, you thought that we were about to
do a music discussion, didn't you send music discussion being Now,
(40:21):
I promise we'll get into the music. We'll do a
music discussion, unlike the next episode or something like that.
We haven't done one of those in a long time.
But that was Sam Macio. That was like it's been
so long, just like knowing about her and being in
the same places that she's been in that to have
like a conversation with her for the first time, that
was dope. Um. I will be on the road next week.
(40:45):
You can go on my Instagram page Dope Underscore Knife
and check out those dates. But if memory does serve,
I do believe I'm gonna be in the Shua New
Hampshire on April. That's gonna be an issue of Garden
and yeah, I just check for the rest of those days.
I think Troy, New York is gonna be the next
day and so and so forth. You can find all
(41:07):
that stuff. Um On Friday tomorrow for y'all, I'm gonna
be dropping a new song with my homie Miles Bulling
and it's called It's Not Always Sunshine. And instead of
the freestyle wraps, that's what we're gonna play for you
guys today. So I'm gonna let that take you home.
Let's hit it shows. It's not all sunshine, It's not
(41:37):
always show. Sometimes it's dark, smoke clouds burning down the field,
coated and bust green copper stain trenched into renso downpouring
out my flame. I wish I felt boring for a change.
Fuck Dirty, please stop men's knocking. He's dropping out of school.
Du Drugs called it cool. I stayed though, hanging by
(42:00):
a threat. And when my friends O Deana saw that
life was fucking cool. And I'm surprised that on my debt,
Dirty fit feeling. Only an attic knows when you can't
get your way those issues and substances get misused, and
you no longer taste food, smell flowers, or hear birds
emotions on you. You see mouths but can't hear words,
(42:20):
and you need out, but need the key first. Bravery
a balancing act full of love and full of dangerous waters.
Waiting on unstable tables reminds me of relationships, because they're
rarely holding up, and you're the best service. And the
wren was always paid in tips. You bounced in place
to place like a sailor of the land, docking up
(42:42):
at courts, trusting strangers, changing plans. It takes bravery to
start again again again again. You have mastered new beginnings.
It takes bravery to start again. You were mastering the
beginnings all sunshine. Sometimes to be bread, some time to
(43:03):
child sold you leave your grandma dad, you want some answer,
to go and get your damn palm bread. Negativity be
firsting out my black ball. It's cancerous. Who's gonna be
the last of us? And I'll meet God? I asked
him this. Even if it's blashomissus, we'd be so dismayed.
So we're afraid. Why low tabletless wish my dad, homies
come back like they was lace arous, something to a
(43:24):
pit and focus bottomless and free falling. Hope them faster
than my problems. But they keep calling, looking at the
nicest folk, caught up in the ice and dope. But
I'm fortunate that my own dragon. It's a light to smoke, moke.
I wish I could take the pain away. I know
you are the same as maid, pack it up and
saving for a rainy day. I don't believe it help.
It's still ignoring where it's the same, and say they
(43:46):
be leaving shells. They just bload it up and aim
and spray that there's the high cost of living when
you think about it, I'm cheap, probably a cowward, and
I think about it in clouds around my crown, and
they leave me some round and scared of new beginnings.
But it's bravery. When bravery start again again the Jain again.
You were mastered New Beginnings. You were mastered New Beginnings.
(44:11):
It sakes bravery to start again and again the Jain again.
You were mastered New Beginnings. Shot you were mastered New Beginnings.
Sunshine Sun Show and do Tony Move with Franca And
(44:34):
you were listening to Waiting on reparations, See you next week.
Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You are now listening to Waiting on Reparations production of
I Heart Radio. Yeah, yeah, you're listening to Waiting on Reparations. Indeed,
ladies and gentlemen, I'm not even going to mess around
or make you wait too long, because we don't want
to wait. Today's episode is kind of special for us,
(00:25):
you know, like it's only so often we're always trying
to book interesting guests on this show, and every now
and then we get the opportunity to book somebody who
were both very enamored with. And even though you read
the description and you've seen who it is, I'm gonna
let Mariah handle the introduction because she has it all
(00:45):
written out, is perfect, so we're just gonna get into it.
So without further ado. Oh jeez, how do I you
get do? How do I really have the honor of
introducing our guest today? Well? I guess today. Sam's a
k A DR And I'm the Kasongo and After. A
futurist rap artist and producer from Ethnica, New York. She
holds a PhD in Science and Technology Studies from Cornell
(01:08):
It is currently a professor in the music department at
Brown University. There's a law more that could be said
about cap Law. You are Dr Samis, but let's let
that unfold in the conversation. So first off, I love
to love to ask people. This is my favorite thing
to ask people these days. Everybody else, Oh how are you?
And you're like, well, good, But what has been the
highlight of your day so far? Today? Oh? The highlight
(01:29):
of my day. I made some amazing eggs for breakfast. Yea,
the most important meal of the day. Oh yeah, what's
your what's your secret to amazing eggs? Well, I'm a
terrible chef, so um. I recently have been putting butter
into my eggs and them just have this more savory
(01:52):
um kind of texture, like good mouth feel. So yeah,
I felt really excited because I'm just such a terrible up.
So what I'm able to make something that it's somewhat tasty.
It's like it's an accomplished goost your self esteem so
much like, yeah I did that. I like body and
like cooking for yourself like a form of self care.
(02:14):
It sure is, but it's hard to like it is
you know, real for real people who who understand the practice.
It's like there's so much commitment. You gotta just prep
like just figuring out all the formulas. As chemistry, it's
a lot having the right like spices and like implements.
(02:35):
You tend to the tools, all right, tools like I
don't even have like a meat mentor like what are
you telling me? Too much eggs? To make some good eggs? Man,
that will start your day, right, Um well, let's get
on to them to find out a little bit about
what you've been up to. Because last time I saw you,
I'm pretty sure it was in d C at Songbird
(02:55):
Cafe and the day, Yeah, for this day, your encouragement,
like we talked of the crowd and you're really encouraging
to me about my PhD it stuff, And I was like,
oh my god, to this day I remember that, but
I was too out the nineteen and a lot has
happened since then. So what has transpired in your last
two and a half years as an academic and a
cultural worker? Yeah? So, um so, basically in two thousand nineteen,
(03:21):
I was just wrapping up my my dissertation. Um so,
let me actually rewind to the top of the year.
So I was like looking at my my dissertation kind
of being finished, and like what was next? And I
was feeling like, Okay, I'm gonna be a full time
working musician. I had zero plans to continue into the academy.
I was like, peace, I'm done with that. Um. And
(03:44):
then a mentor of mine, UM Dr Jennifer Stover, who's
written this amazing book called The Sonic Color Line, she
reached out to me and was like, hey, have you
seen this post doc at Brown for someone who teaches
in like Afro disport music making, And I feel like
this might kind of be up your alley. UM. So
I was like sure, I tied to it, and then
(04:05):
actually got it and was like whoa, that was unexpected.
But then it was also this kind of o ship
moment because I had to have my PhD by the
start date, and the start date was in July, and
I did not yet have a PhD. So it was like, Okay,
I have to make this happen in the next four
to five months. So um that that semester was like
(04:29):
the worst inmester of my life. I was writing like
I had a gun into my head. It was so stressful,
and I had I worked with a dissertation writing coach
who would just like she would just push me like
you gotta keep writing today. So it was really really difficult,
but I finished it in time and I was able
to graduate and UM and then ended up moving to
(04:50):
Providence in twenty to start composition UM for the fall semester.
So it was I mean, it was a trip like
we could talk about. But yeah, that that sounds Yeah
that just give me very deeply because um, you know,
I'm both time, my discinsion done in three weeks, and
my mental health is just not right. Not only that,
(05:15):
it's like impacting how I'm treating other people. That's the
thing that's like not cool. I'm like I can saw her,
it's fine, but like I'm like yelling at people everything.
It affects everything. When you're under that that that kind
of timeline and stress and constraint, and when you're deep
in the project like that, it's it's so difficult to
just be in like a clear mental health space. So
(05:38):
I I completely completely understand that space and I can't
wait for you to be free of it. Certainly, was
all that stuff that went down, was that pre or
post pandemic that was free? That was pandemic? Yeah, yeah, um,
And it's funny because I was I was on tour
at the beginning of twenty nineteen, and I remember I
(05:59):
was like in back of the van, like trying, just
desperately trying to write, like you know, everyone's had having
a key key living their best life, and I was
there as hell because it was like I don't get
to critake and anything. I just have this this theme,
this demon looming over my my my head. Um. So yeah.
Then I moved to Providence from Philly. I was in
Philly for four years um, and then came up to
(06:22):
Providence and that's been it's been a trip being here
and getting situated. It's a different experience. And then halfway
through my first year was when the pandemic unfolded. So
then I moved back to Philly and was there for
two for the remainder of the year and into the
next year. And now I'm back in Providence after having
(06:43):
like taught online basically for the more set and stable
now in terms of like yeah, yeah, like and during
I should mention that during that two year period, I
was just at Brown as a post doc, so I thought, okay,
I got to figure out my next steps. And then
I was extended and offered to be an assistant professor.
(07:05):
So it was like, Okay, I have a little bit
more um like time, the timeline is different now because
I was thinking during the pandemic, I'm also gonna have
to figure out what the next step is. So it
was a little bit of stability after a few years,
but just not not really knowing. So, how has like
academia f at all. I mean, you're already you know
(07:27):
in I guess at Cornell for eight years things, so
so like, particularly with the pandemic and now you're taking
on a new prefectorial role, how has that influenced, like
your ability to make art um? As it informed in
any way? Lord? Well, so the first thing is it informed?
(07:49):
It be in the sense that I haven't really been
able to make that much art um because I was
so I realized this um like into maybe March or
April of twenty when lockdown was sort of like when
we were in lockdown, but I was so burnt out.
I was so completely fried and just had not really
(08:12):
processed it and had kind of accepted that as like
the normal pace of things that like, yeah, you should
be trying to do five million things and tour and
right and be in conversation and do this and the third.
So when we had to slow down, UM, I cracked hard.
I was like, I don't want to do anything. I
don't want to use my brain to do anything. My
(08:35):
brain is at least yeah. So really, for for the
past to two wish years, I've been more focused on
UM two projects. One of them is UM. It's a
video game project with some friends who started a studio
(08:56):
UM called glow Up Games, and we're working on this
project and they've wanted someone to come in who has
kind of a rap background to engineer this like rap mechanic.
So I it's like it was a very specific skill
set that I was able to sal for this this
game project. So I've been working on some rhymes to
kind of figure out this like rhyme mechanic in the game.
(09:19):
And then the other project is working with a friend
of mine. She's an incredible MC named a Ku and
Naru UM and she is She's developed this idea to
to to create a digital archive UM that traces the
contributions of women and girls in hip hop over the
past fifty years. So UM like contributing in that way
(09:42):
has been really like gratifying, but as far as making
my own stuff, I haven't. I haven't even had the
I feel like the focus to just sit and write.
And I think it's it's um it's like a scary
space for me right now because I think revisit it
in the page is like I think sitting with the
(10:04):
um you know, the trauma of the past few years,
just you know, like I had these upcoming shows and
I'm realizing, Man, I haven't performed live in two and
a half years, Like what is that going to feel? Like? Like,
am I you know, have I lost it? Do I
still have like all these questions that sort of emerge
around creation that I've been trying to avoid for the
(10:28):
past two years that now I have to get back into.
But yeah, it's so interesting the way that paused and
impacted folks differently, Like it didn't slow things down for everyone,
but some found a lot of creative energy and that
slow down other people and it was a moment for
them to actually assess like there where they were at
and like actually, no, this is not cool, you know.
(10:50):
And yeah, the various ways that like that like slow
down really allowed people to things to emerge, things to
emerge that everyone had been ignoring or not really. You know,
I had like I had like two two sides of
that when the pandemic hit. Like the first half of
Lockdown was like, oh man, nothing matters. What is art?
(11:14):
There's there's no purpose or point in any of those.
And then the second half was like, oh wait, things
are gonna be fine. Okay, what's Yeah, the starter started
writing like all over the points. Yeah, that's real, and
I like it impacted me in waves. So I think
when Lockdown first started, you know, I was just kind
(11:35):
of perplexed, like Okay, well, what's what's going to happen
with this universe? And had kind of these existential crises
of like like you said, what is what is a wrap?
What is what is creativity? But then I remember, I
don't even remember what happened, but there was one day
where I suddenly felt this deep pain and I missed
(11:56):
the performance space. And it was like very specific things
like I missed writing my set list, like scribbling it
down at the beginning of the set, or I missed
like the sticky floors of dive bar. Yeah, you know,
like all of these kind of textual things that maybe
you don't immediately identify as like the most important part
of being an artist. But they add you know, they
(12:17):
add joy to your your experience. So I felt a
really acute pain in that particular moment, and so I
feel like it's it's ebbed and flowed. Um. But now
I feel much more purpose driven than I was at
the at the top of the thing. At the top,
it was like me and Mariah both recently started doing
shows again and stuff too. So you you will, you will,
(12:40):
you will enjoy it. It's it's like a vike. I'm
pretty sure my first show I played, though, I like
just forgot a lot of the lyrics because you're so
love the memory and you played so much you don't
worry about I got up there and I was like,
what is this song? Yeah, that's what I'm not trying
to say that to scare you know, but like, you know,
(13:03):
I was way too high the first one that I
did back, like, I ran like my voice was shot.
After like the first verse of the first song, I
was like, oh, crap, I gotta go through thirty more minutes.
This is not gonna work practically, case on a physiological level,
like I actually I just went to a jazz uh
(13:24):
kind of show yesterday, and you know, the music was incredible,
but I was so focused on the performers because it
was like physically like they are just at the top
of their game to be able to do what they
were doing for thirty minutes straight, and it was stressing
me because I was like, dang, I haven't been really
will I be able to be in that kind of shape?
(13:46):
Like my voice, my my memory like all that stuff.
How's it going to function in the when it's game time.
But it's good to know that you all have have
gotten back on the stage, like thank god. And it's
a little creeky and first of the cree you buy
such getting back on you know, I mean the ross
a little bit of gears, but it goes like it's crazy.
One of the things that I like it was coming
(14:09):
to grips with during the pandemic and stuff, was how
much of being like an m C or artists whatever
you want to call it, Like, how much of that
was part of like my identity since I've been since
I was eighteen, you know, so like things like you
were just describing like the stickiness of a dive, but
like to me, that's like literally like yeah, that's life.
(14:31):
You know what I mean. It's it's it's it's it's
suthing I identified with so much that I don't know,
like to finally get back on stage and to finally
be in those atmospheres again, I don't know. It feels
it feels like a wholeness is like return that that
wasn't there for a while. So it's spiritual. It's definitely,
I mean, what we do as performers, I have a
(14:54):
new if anything came out of this, like in if
I feel really strongly positively about some part of this
is that I am recognizing the work that we do,
like the role that we do and not just making culture,
but like shaping people's real lives experiences like yeah, I'm sorry,
(15:17):
I didn't cut you. What would you say? No, I
was just saying shoutouts shout on the show. So that's
all good. Well, speaking of things that influence us and
shape us. You know, we are a music podcasts were
also politics podcast, so I had to ask about So
you are the grand niece of the Prime Minister of
(15:38):
Congo Patrica MoMA, who advocated for self determination for the
Congist people at a time as they were transitioning away
from clonialism. Ultimately, it was assassinated for his revolutionary ideas
and he was killed long before you were born. But
I wondered if his legacy has influenced you in anyway
and how that period in the Congo impacted your family history. Yes, sure,
(16:00):
thank you so much for that question. Um, And it's
funny because well maybe it's not funny, but my my dad, um,
he's I love my dad, but he's so um. I
don't have a better way to put it. He's like shady.
I love him, but he's like he just he won't
tell you what he's doing. Like he'll call you like
I'm in South Africa. It's like okay, well what are
(16:22):
you doing and it's like click and then he'll be
support that type of stuff. So like when I was
a kid, he didn't really talk about this amazing figure
who was part of our shared history. I didn't. I
didn't have any understanding that I was connected to this person.
But it was actually like my history and social studies
(16:43):
teachers who would be like Lamamba, like are you there're
a relationship here? Like they would be like fan girling
and fan boying, and I didn't really understand, like what
was happening. So finally that produced like conversations with my
dad about like who is this person and like why
are people feeling this way about his legacy? And through
(17:03):
there I started to understand that just the radical importance
of him as a figure protected particularly I think in
in that era in the sixties, but then like globally
as this figure of resistance. Like for our listeners, do
you mind just like given like a brief little recap
(17:23):
of La Mumba was Yes. So Patrice Lammba was the
first democratically elected Prime Minister of the Congo UM and
he was really pushing for a kind of um anti colonialists.
They they wanted to be able to govern for themselves.
And Belgium was the I mean, had committed atrocities in
(17:47):
the scale of Holocaust UM and so he was kind
of the figure who was able to push to that place.
And then he was assassinated in nineteen sixty one by
by the CIA, essentially UM for you know, inciting this
kind of new political space. UM. So he really is
a figure and I realized that in going to the
(18:08):
continent in various countries that he remains a kind of
like revolutionary figure for UM thinking about freedom fighting and
then in terms of the like how that's shaped my work. Um,
I hadn't really completely thought about it until like I
was much older, and a lot of discussions about like
(18:31):
what kind of music you make came up specifically like
I don't know if you've ever experienced this, Mariah, where
like being a woman in rap is a very interesting
space because you will often be positioned against women who
you don't even necessarily have. There's no beast, there's no
(18:52):
drama there, so people will be like, oh, thank god
you don't wrap like Cardi, or they'll they'll position women
who are coming from a particular lyrical tradition or intellectual
tradition against women who are coming from a space where
they may be making party music or like strip club
fantasy music, whatever that is. And so I really started
to think about, like why do I make the music
(19:13):
that I make? And I think part of it is
that I want to be in conversation with Lamombo these
ideas around um like what a free space would look
like for you know, black people, and um, like that's
what I'm drawn to the music for. Um. Of course,
everybody has their reasons, but I think that's part of
(19:35):
why I feel like I'm called to make that specific
brand of music. Although I would love to make some
party music at some point, I'm just bad at Like, yeah,
whether something is like a party joint or not is
strictly based on like who's taking it in you can
part it. I've I've listened to some of your stuff
(19:57):
and I felt like, man, this is some real feel
good Yeah. I mean like like like I wish I
could make that, So I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
But yeah, I thank you for asking that that question,
because it doesn't always come up out or come up um,
(20:17):
but it is an important threat I think that I'm
trying to gesture towards. So now I'm wondering, did you like,
did you grow up in the States? Yeah? Yeah, I
was born in upstate New York Keepsie and then grew
up in Ithaca. Um, so like too shitty upstate New
York down So I was like, why, parents, why are
(20:40):
you doing this? Like why? Um? And you know, especially
because they hate the cold, like they hate the cold
more than me. It's like, why would you do this?
The bag got to secure the bag, I guess, and
the intellectual bag also not just like the bag bag
but like the you know right right, I mean, like yeah,
they're they're happy they had their their intellectual community, but
(21:00):
it is whole. So I grew up there and um yeah,
we we went back to visit family, not on my
dad's side, not in the Congo the first time and
the only time I've been to the Congo was in
for as part of my my dissertation research. But um,
and that's where I saw the love for Patrice Lamm
(21:21):
but like in practice, like his picture is still emblazoned places. Um.
But we visited family in the Ivory Coast, which is
where my mom is from. And I used to I
used to live in uh, Sierra Leone when I was
like when I was when I was As a matter
of fact, I think that's gonna go into one of
(21:41):
my rised questions coming up about ny Jamison. Yeah do
you know that about mac I did? Is this? God? Yeah? Wow? Yeah,
she's like really good friends with my mom and my dad.
And when I was a baby in Freetown, serle On,
(22:03):
like she she she nursed me for when I was
like really sick and like brought me to health. Then yeah,
yeah she's how was this just now coming up in
the conference, why was why was did you not leave?
I'm sorry, I've just been wanting to hear you talk.
We we have like a lot in common the whole
time you've been talking and stuff like that. But my
(22:25):
mother's Liberian, my father's American. He worked in the State Department,
so that's how they met. And um, like the first
few years of my life, we were in Sierra Leone
and then Liberia. Then the war started, so we came
to the States and my mom wanted us. She like
after the war, she wanted to like go somewhere far
(22:47):
from Africa, so we went to Toronto for three years experience.
She experienced three years of Toronto summer. We lived in
Africa till I was nineteen. Ever gonna to do it right?
What yo? I'm literally I'm shaking in my boots right now.
(23:07):
This is crazy, Like I this woman like since I
was a kid, Like I remember, my mom was very
intentional about introducing this woman to me, to give me
this real life superhero. I've gone to see her speaking
multiple times. That's so cool. I wish we could be
in person, so I touch your hand or something. I
(23:34):
had to bring that up sending you will get kicked
out of it. Thank you, bless the chat. Fool of
just firing like legacies that we're carrying on that it's funny,
Like it's funny doing this show for the last two years.
Is that's been like my I guess, um awakening as
to how like revered a figure she is For me,
(23:56):
it's always been like, oh, yeah, you know, it just
family talking to Mariah, talking to other people. It's like,
oh wait, I guess, yeah, I guess that is kind
of a big deal. Like I mean, it's kind of
like can you think about like Blue Ivyes, he's just
like my mom is my mom is a Beyonce you
know what I mean, Like people who have these iconic
(24:19):
figures who are in their lives, but they're just you know,
the role that they take is just like caregiver, you know,
not just but it's caregiver or person I cuddle with
verse of my Like, let's transition into back to talking
about music a little bit. Um. Very interested in your
process of song creation because you're a producer. You started
(24:39):
off making beats first, is my understanding, and then you
brought in rapping. So I'm wondering how beats and rhymes
influence one another for you in that process of song creation. Yeah,
thank you for that. It's a great question. UM. So
I generally, like I've had to give some talks on songwriting,
so I've been thinking a lot about this UM recently,
(25:01):
but I don't really UM and I don't know if
other m cs do this, but I don't really start
with words for I can't. I have to have a
beat that i'm writing towards or two. UM. I think
maybe one time in my life have I ever had
words form and then try to craft something to fit
those those words? UM. Generally, I feel like it's such
(25:23):
an embodied experience of listening that your flow emerges from
like how you're moving, UM, to the to the production.
So I usually will produce something not with a with
a a kind of like content in mind for what
I want to say, and maybe something will come up
in that moment. Maybe I just put it in, you know,
(25:45):
put it away, put set it aside, and then when
something emerges for me as a topic, it's like, okay,
let me go back and see what's there that can
kind of like fit with this thing. So UM, definitely
the beat shapes the uh flow and generally what I'm
talking about or speaking towards um, although I do I
(26:07):
do want to trouble that a little bit, like with
what we were talking about with party music, you know, like,
is there a way I want to be more experimental
in the future with taking sounds that I associate with
sort of like fun, care free existence and mapping that
onto you know, my songs about insecurity or whatever whatever
(26:30):
other like mental health crisis I'm dealing. Can I marry
these two things together in a in a more experimental way.
Definitely can. And like I think that's like the that's
the cheat code, you know, it's just like it's it's
there's like there's something about the quality of like that
sort of music, like you know, from an instrumental standpoint,
(26:52):
that's kind of just it lures people in that I
think once you have them, you can be talking about
whatever the funk you want in between it, and you
know what I'm saying there there, you're you're gonna be
able to if your intention is to like persuade or
to turn heads or to give insight or whatever, wrapping
on the stuff that you would think you shouldn't wrap on,
(27:14):
to wrap that sort of stuff too. I think that's
like that's the key moving forward, so I can't wait
to hear it. I was just gonna ask um, like,
who are some influences that you have, just like m
m c wise or even producer wise. Okay, so m
(27:35):
c wise, I would say, kind of in like my
my immediate frame of reference. I really like open Mike
Eagle a lot like he to me. It's just like
he's so introspective. I feel like I understand the contours
of his brain through his musical exactly. Like he's he's
(27:58):
very um Like when I teach, I'm always telling my
students about like specificity, like be specific, be specific, and
I think Mike Eagles very specific like his his references
give you a real snapshot into who he is as
like a thinker and a person. Um. So he's definitely
somebody that I appreciate. I also really like um more mother. Uh,
(28:22):
she's she's kind of like noise wrap punk god. Like
her description on a band camp is so amazing to
me because it's just like, hold, I gotta pull this
up because it always we play like new like clips
for music for people on the show all the times,
introducing a net Yes, So she calls herself low fi,
(28:46):
dark rap, chill step, black Girl Blues, which rap, coffee Shop,
Riot Girls song, Southern Girl, Diddy's black Ghost, like where
who I Throw the money? So like she she's really
dope because she's just interweaving all of these kind of
like sonic spaces in her work, and she she is
(29:08):
a producer as well. She works with free jazz artists.
Like she's just very she doesn't care about boundaries, And
I think that's really compelling to me as as an
insane and obviously Mariah, I'm a fan. I think that
you're like so incredible and just brilliant and and such
a great performer too, which is not always like being
(29:33):
able to hear it and then also see it. Has
I got, you know, some minutes after this is somewhere
I can just go join. Thank you so much for that.
That means a lot, because I do look up to
you a great deal and love be music as well. Um,
And actually, you know, one way I want to ask
you about because like people ask me about this all
(29:54):
the time, and so and I read in an interview
I think it was with loud and quiet, and they
just I view was exercising your demons through music, And
I wondered if you actually if you would describe it
that way, because and I feel like that's an interesting
why people often characterize music that is about very vulnerable topics. Yeah,
(30:16):
that um, exercising my demons. I think I appreciate you
like maybe like pushing back against that that framing, because
I mean it definitely has felt like a survival mechanism,
like I have to express this or I'm going to
(30:37):
explode or implode, like they're a kind of desperation around
having to speak to that um. But as far as exercising,
like I mean, the demons are still there, first of all,
you know, like that's just gonna be there. But I
think it is about like maybe like chatting with the
devas or like being being you know, being conversation or
(31:01):
exposing them rather than like through the music. I'm not,
I don't feel this anymore. Like that's not the case
I think for for those of us who struggle within
these you know, whether it's a chemical imbalance or a
particular situation or a lifelong and trauma that you're dealing with,
Like the idea that there's sort of an end to it,
(31:22):
you release it into the world and then it's no
longer with you. Is not necessarily how I would characterize
the musical process for me, but it is it is.
It provides a lens. Like when I make a music
about the thing, I think I can see it for
what it is, like articulate what is going on, and
maybe understand it a little bit better. But I don't
know if it's if it's exercised, like I appreciate the
(31:45):
word what you wor did that talking to the demons
and like, you know, like you're just having conversation and
understanding them better. And I think the idea of like
demonizing our troubles even like it's not very rare to
feel depression. It's odd rare to feel these things, so
like they're not necessarily like evil forces to be cast out.
(32:05):
They're just right human things that are demonized because we
don't talk about them, and then you talk about them,
so then they for other people also are demonized. Making
the song is the act of talking about it, like
you know what I mean, that's the um. So you're
you're gonna be going out on the road soon, right,
because we were talking earlier about you got some shows
(32:26):
coming up, I do, but you can hear you hear
the stress of my voice. Um. Yeah, So I'm gonna
be in May. I have some shows on the well.
I have one show up here in New England and
then uh four shows with a friend of mine, Mega Rand.
I think actually you might have h He's great. He's
(32:50):
just such a supportive, um like music friend. He always
will put you on. He's always going to figure out
a way to to like help out the homies. So
he actually he want to go on a longer tour,
and I was like, I can only do four days,
Like your girl is rusty, Like, just let me do
my week and come home and reassess. So I'll be
(33:12):
on the West Coast for four days and then I
have one more show in New England and then it's
like I chill, which feels like a good a nice
first um like entrance back into it. Like if I
had two or three weeks, I feel like I'd be
broken down by by the top of week two. I
don't think I ever want to do more than a
week ever. Again, I didn't realize how better that was
(33:34):
from my mental health before until I stopped it, and
I was like, I've become more. I think that's I
think that's because like the natural state, like the older
you get when you're if you're still in the game,
you know, you eventually get to a point where it's like, man,
I think a good week log runs about the max
for me because I remember back in Yo. I think
this was going on tour for like a month and
(33:56):
ship like you're coming back with all kinds of crazy bills,
like just all completely out of whack and yeah, like
it was like punds from eating fast food all the time. Yeah, man,
it's so hard. It's a rough rough. I mean, yeah,
(34:17):
that that part for sure, Like I don't think I
can really deal with all of the my my older
body is just like girl, no, it's not it. That's
why I was super impressed at the super Bowl, like
all these old bas niggas like Snoopy and like Dr
Gray like up there like holding down like that's really like,
(34:40):
but I was I saw some behind the scenes thing
and I forget it was it. It was either Red
Man or Method Man or it was like dip set,
but it was like them like recently and they're on
the tour bus after a show and they're like, yo,
there's so much Ben Gay on this bus right now,
We're all that's where stuff. How far away is? Uh?
(35:15):
How far I was? I was looking at my tour
dad saying if I was going to be anywhere near
Rhode Island, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be like in
New hamp Yeah. So one of these dates, one of
these dates so listeners can go out find tickets and
come see you and experience thank you. Yeah, I don't
even know. I'm like, I'm going on tour at some point.
Let me like actually pull that up. Um, So the
(35:36):
date the tour starts on um May thirteen at the
Waking Windows Festival in Vermont, and then the May is
the West Coast Seattle down to San Diego, and then
May nineteen, I'll be in New Hampshire and then back
home for people who haven't heard your music before. So
(36:00):
you're gonna go You're about to get back on the
road after a hiatus not being on the road, so
you're probably gonna have a lot of fans and a
lot of people who have been following you that are
now going to get the chance to see you again.
So what is like, what are like two of the
songs two of the joints where you feel, oh man,
I gotta do these if if people are gonna be
(36:21):
coming there to see me and they've been listening to
my music over the years. Uh so, I mean I
perform a song called ten a d P if I
think at every show chan who had to be comfortable here?
I never feel like I'm allowed to breathe rubbins should
nerds with the old nerds rocket swin of them, just
because I think it's important. I feel like you were
(36:44):
saying right, just that this to create a space where
people can see someone in conversation with the difficult parts
of their their experience. Um so I do that song.
And then there's another song it's not released yet, and
I um wants to like, you know, at some point
I need to record this thing. But it's a song
(37:07):
called two Hands, and it's almost I've framed it as
a response to ten a DP in the sense that, um,
you know, like uh, I started to have this kind
of weird thing happened at shows where people would be
like do ten a DP, or like do your depression song,
and it's like wait a minute, like I don't this
(37:30):
doesn't feel good. This doesn't feel good being asked to
just like like perform the pain, like come through and
perform your pain for us. Like that felt weird. So
I wanted to, you know, like there's this weird exploitative
element that can come up when you're being vulnerable. So
I wrote two Hands, which is a song about just
like the things that I find joy in even being
(37:52):
a broken person. It's like there's still things that just
the fact that we can create is actually fucking and
cry able, like that's wild that we can make stuff
from our brains, and then people will sit with it
like what the hell. So that's what the song is about.
And I like to perform it after ten a d
P to be like right now people looking it can
(38:13):
only hear that at a show. Yeah, but it will.
It will be recorded at some point soon and all
the all the the rest of the songs on this
next project, it will be on the Well, get out
there and go through some of these shows if you're nearby. Also,
I just want to say about quick when you said
two hands, I thought of that line from body morphe
You're like, I thought like clop of black, I got
(38:34):
on p of all the Hands. I was like Oh,
she doesn't been all the way. It's like really getting
which maybe that's the continent of the song. I don't know.
I guess I gotta come to one of your shelves
so you're not so where can imry? Wait? Where can
people find I'm just gonna I'm closing up to I
was just gonna say, wherehere can people find you if
(38:55):
they're looking for you online? Uh? So I have been
really trash about posting, like so you can. You can
see my Instagram posts from like me, it's Samy's music.
Everything is Samy's music A S A M M U
S music. UM. And I'm trying to you know, this
(39:17):
is another part of the anxiety of being an artist
that you have to be very online, you know, so
like you know, dealing with that, like, oh, I have
to promote the shows on the tour. I need to
probably tell people that there is a tour coming. Um.
So I'll be a little bit more online over the
next month or so, and then you can just go
to Sama's music dot com for my music stuff and
(39:38):
then in ago dash lk dot com to go see
my like other stuff that I'm working, things that I'm
writing about like that kind of stuff. Well, thank you
so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Um,
good luck out there. You know, treat yourself well away
on the road and in general general. Everyone, Yeah, for sure.
(39:58):
And if y'all, If y'all are ever like providences between
Boston and New York, so if you're going or planning
an East Coast tour, like, just plan a stop in
Providence and we can let's like figure out a show
for y'all. Ah, you thought that we were about to
do a music discussion, didn't you send music discussion being Now,
(40:21):
I promise we'll get into the music. We'll do a
music discussion, unlike the next episode or something like that.
We haven't done one of those in a long time.
But that was Sam Macio. That was like it's been
so long, just like knowing about her and being in
the same places that she's been in that to have
like a conversation with her for the first time, that
was dope. Um. I will be on the road next week.
(40:45):
You can go on my Instagram page Dope Underscore Knife
and check out those dates. But if memory does serve,
I do believe I'm gonna be in the Shua New
Hampshire on April. That's gonna be an issue of Garden
and yeah, I just check for the rest of those days.
I think Troy, New York is gonna be the next
day and so and so forth. You can find all
(41:07):
that stuff. Um On Friday tomorrow for y'all, I'm gonna
be dropping a new song with my homie Miles Bulling
and it's called It's Not Always Sunshine. And instead of
the freestyle wraps, that's what we're gonna play for you
guys today. So I'm gonna let that take you home.
Let's hit it shows. It's not all sunshine, It's not
(41:37):
always show. Sometimes it's dark, smoke clouds burning down the field,
coated and bust green copper stain trenched into renso downpouring
out my flame. I wish I felt boring for a change.
Fuck Dirty, please stop men's knocking. He's dropping out of school.
Du Drugs called it cool. I stayed though, hanging by
(42:00):
a threat. And when my friends O Deana saw that
life was fucking cool. And I'm surprised that on my debt,
Dirty fit feeling. Only an attic knows when you can't
get your way those issues and substances get misused, and
you no longer taste food, smell flowers, or hear birds
emotions on you. You see mouths but can't hear words,
(42:20):
and you need out, but need the key first. Bravery
a balancing act full of love and full of dangerous waters.
Waiting on unstable tables reminds me of relationships, because they're
rarely holding up, and you're the best service. And the
wren was always paid in tips. You bounced in place
to place like a sailor of the land, docking up
(42:42):
at courts, trusting strangers, changing plans. It takes bravery to
start again again again again. You have mastered new beginnings.
It takes bravery to start again. You were mastering the
beginnings all sunshine. Sometimes to be bread, some time to
(43:03):
child sold you leave your grandma dad, you want some answer,
to go and get your damn palm bread. Negativity be
firsting out my black ball. It's cancerous. Who's gonna be
the last of us? And I'll meet God? I asked
him this. Even if it's blashomissus, we'd be so dismayed.
So we're afraid. Why low tabletless wish my dad, homies
come back like they was lace arous, something to a
(43:24):
pit and focus bottomless and free falling. Hope them faster
than my problems. But they keep calling, looking at the
nicest folk, caught up in the ice and dope. But
I'm fortunate that my own dragon. It's a light to smoke, moke.
I wish I could take the pain away. I know
you are the same as maid, pack it up and
saving for a rainy day. I don't believe it help.
It's still ignoring where it's the same, and say they
(43:46):
be leaving shells. They just bload it up and aim
and spray that there's the high cost of living when
you think about it, I'm cheap, probably a cowward, and
I think about it in clouds around my crown, and
they leave me some round and scared of new beginnings.
But it's bravery. When bravery start again again the Jain again.
You were mastered New Beginnings. You were mastered New Beginnings.
(44:11):
It sakes bravery to start again and again the Jain again.
You were mastered New Beginnings. Shot you were mastered New Beginnings.
Sunshine Sun Show and do Tony Move with Franca And
(44:34):
you were listening to Waiting on reparations, See you next week.
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