Crashing the (Democratic) Party

This week, LF and DK are joined by democratic operative John Jackson to discuss his work infiltrating the democratic party.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Mh. You are listening to Waiting on Reparations production of
I Heart Radio. Yo, Yo Yo, what's up? What's up?
What's this dope? Knife? And we are waiting on reparations

(00:20):
any day now? Right? What are you waiting for? It's
my question, listeners, what are you waiting for? I know
the people in California were waiting, and they even got
themselves the reparations task Force that came out. They actually
made a decision that there. I think they made a
decision in Kelly for their Reparation task Force. It was like, uh,

(00:41):
they're going to limit it only to the sentence of
like free black persons, or hold on, let me find
it and get the actual California's this is per the APS,
California's first in nation task force on reparations, voted Thursday
to limit the state compensation to the sentence of free

(01:01):
and enslaved black people who were in the US in
the nineteenth century, narrowly rejecting a proposal to include all
black people, regardless of lineage split five four, and the
hours long debate was at times testing emotional. Near the end,
well yeah, for sure, what do you think about that?

(01:22):
I think that's it? I'd love to see their methodology
for for determining lineage, because that's the tricky part of
that's like people, I mean other than like, oh, we
shouldn't have to pay for the sins of our cast
kind of ship, people are like, well, how do we
determine who gets it? That's why, like in my work,
because like the like slavery, wasn't it like continually well

(01:42):
was like extracted from black people through over exploitation to
the literal theft of land as we've talked about previously
on the show. Um and so thinking reparations to things
that we do can find the receipts for a little easier,
like you know, when land is taken from people lynchings, um, etcetera, etcetera,

(02:06):
because like there receipts on that are in your like
in your local like libraries, archives and should So, I
mean that's interesting. I definitely want to learn more about
how they are going about determining you know, that kind
of thing, because that's just like tool me the missing piece,
and in like the call for reparations, well, I think
a lot of you know sometimes in these this like

(02:27):
modern error and stuff like that, especially you know when
you like add him like the the like neoliberals sort
of like view of it and stuff. I think we
sometimes lose sight and forget that. It's like the purpose
of things like slavery and Jim Crow, like there was
a like an economic purpose for it, you know what

(02:50):
I mean, like the purpose the purpose wasn't the purpose
wasn't necessarily like racism for the sake of racism was
it was like you know, there was there was like
sism for like an econot with an economic goal like
in mind and ship like that. So the wealth that
was abstracted, like I don't even I can't even imagine

(03:10):
like how you would even quantify it to like actually
come up with like a proper estimation how much needs
to be repaired. I guess you know what I mean.
But a columnist economists have calculated it previously. In fact,
I could probably I've written on it a little bit.
I could probably pull it up in a second. Um
like calculated the amount of wealth that was taken from

(03:33):
you know, slaves in terms of labor unpaid labor. Um
hold on Hamilton with the Institute. Do you why you're
looking for it? Do you think that UM determinations like this.
Do you think that they are a cop out or
do you think they're like a way out of repaying
or do you think of these are like necessary steps

(03:55):
and things that need to be figured out when you're
going about stuff like this. I mean definitely in my experience,
and some like fighting for reparations, Like I found it
interesting that like the descendants, the folks from whom like
wealth was taken, like they asked for very specific things,
and so many mentioned this like task force. I think
like task forcing, like um issues, is like a way

(04:17):
of filtering black demands through like white supremacist mechanisms, like
because like the government was like founded and mostly run
by white people like historically, and so like, oh, well,
you know, we hear you, we hear what you're asking for,
but let's do it our way as a means of
becoming comfortable with the outcomes and not just like doing

(04:38):
what people have asked you to do. Granted, in our case,
like you know, state law constrains us in various ways,
so having an input of lawyers, etcetera like unnecessary, and
I'm su it was true of this case. But the
fact that like we need are like white attorneys to
like say it's okay. We need you know, these white
voices involved in the process rather than just like listening

(04:58):
and doing. You know. That's another thing component of a
lot of this work of just like the task forceszation
of of black demands and task forces acting as like
a sieve through which they are strained. It seems like
they stay wanting to make task force and committees that
gotta look at some ship for like fifteen years before

(05:19):
they can make a decision whether it's I get it. It
It requires like careful deliberation and consideration, but like according
to whose rules, like you know, like who is setting
up the task force? And why is it? Because that
is it is? Is this a way? I mean, that's
I've often seen it as a way to delay action
also like almost well you know, sign into a committee

(05:43):
and that way you can sort of like pass the
buck on it. Think I think we've talked about that before. Yeah,
you said you did something, you didn't do nothing. Yeah, Well,
I mean, y'all know, y'all know how y'all can always
help us with the reparations. Speaking of you, speaking of
I'm getting ready to go on the road right now,
and I know you just got off the road, Yo,

(06:07):
what is good with these gas prices? Yo? This ship
is insane man an X and be making up record profits,
always funking all this talking inflation and like, oh we're
gonna to raise prices when like CEOs or just yaught
after yacht, just big yacht ladies and gentlemen. If if

(06:29):
you like of venmo At dope knife, if you want
to hear help with the dope knife, go onto our
gas fund, dope knife. Hit him up, get get it started,
get those refarations started. I was doing people like I
was doing some little like rap commissions to like help
fund my chi yeah, like ten bucks. Alright, actually this one, dude,

(06:52):
this one, and I think it's like a history teacher
like middle school or some ship commissioned me to do
a we actually now we have to do an episode
on this because I did not know of this. UM.
I'll rap about um finale through now like Union versus
Coca Cola then alleging that like Coca Cola hired like
right wing paramilitaries to kill the union organizers. I think

(07:13):
it was in Columbia. So I wrote a little rap
about that. Yeah, you know what, I'm gonna put that
at the end of the show this week. I'm gonna
I'll let y'all hear my rap about a yeah organizers
in Columbia. I like the idea about that. Yeah, if
you yeah, if you send me, if you send me
something on Vemo, just like in the note, just like

(07:33):
say what you want your your custom wrap on, and
I'll start working on those. I like that idea. That's
so what we got what we got today, remar So
today we're going to be joined by my friend and
it seemed, colleague John Jackson. He is the chairman of
the Decap County Democratic Committee. As folks who may have
followed the runoff elections recall um to CAP was very

(07:57):
instrumental in bringing home the wind for or President Pye.
And and so we're gonna talk to him a little
bit today about his political journey, what he sees as
necessary solutions for the freedom of black people. A lot
of them talk about now, you know, economic freedom. Economic well,
you know, it relates to what we've been talking about here,
because economic anxieties are so tied to racism. Like you know,

(08:21):
the humanization of black and brown people is mostly to
like help create the conditions for capital accumulation for white people.
And so we get a little bit into um economic
justice as as you know, a critical step in ensuring
the full freedom of black people. So we're gonna talk
about a lot about that, Talk a little bit about
the Grammys, talk a little bit about Amazon. Let's get

(08:44):
into it. We'll be right back. Today. We are joined
by John Jackson, the esteemed John Jackson, CEO chairman, no
chairman of the Decab County Democrats, mover and shaker out

(09:05):
here in Georgia, Democratic politics, but and beyond and beyond,
we're gonna get into a little bit about from where
we all stand with regards to the Democratic Party these days, etcetera, etcetera.
Getting some news and stuff. But first, John, how are
you today? I'm doing I'm doing great. I'm blessed, less
be here, less to be breathing. It's been the highlight

(09:26):
of your week so far. It's Monday. But sad to
be something something so far. Well, you know, I'm I
been in physical therapy for some injuries and I'm getting
a lot stronger, getting a lot better, and i think
I'm about to be way better than I was before. Uh,
you know, just just feeling good, feeling better than I
have in the past couples. It's beautiful. I'm so happy

(09:47):
to hear that. Yeah, so I guess I guess at
this point we kind of got like a somewhat of
a loose format for how we start these but yeah, look, yeah,
I mean, if you want to start out, just tell
us a little bit about yourself. How do you get
into what you're doing today, what you're doing these days? Also,
like your professional life is very interesting. I don't know

(10:07):
if you want to speak on that at all, but yeah,
I'm about full disclosure here. Tell our listeners, like, who
who are you? Like? What do you do? My name
is John Jackson. I'm the chairman of the cab County
Democratic Committee. Uh why did the regard it just one
of the strongest county parties in the country. Uh. In

(10:29):
my day job, I am a consultant um for big
companies and that's how I pay my bills. I don't
love it just you talking. But I was like, is
this like passion? I'm not gonna do what if it was,
But it's just it's kind of like I haven't found

(10:51):
anything yet that affect can pay my bills. So I'm like, Okay, well,
I'm just gonna kind of figure I'm just gonna kind
of do this and until I can find something that
is something I love and and uh, something that also
pays the bills. You know. I'm I'm I'm almost thirty

(11:11):
eight years old, still figuring out what I want to
be when I grow up. So so now I'm really interested. Now, Okay,
So okay, So when you were so, what is it
that you would want to do if you could like choose,
if you like, if it was up to me. Um, honestly,

(11:33):
and I'm already beginning to do some of this, I
wouldn't I wouldn't uh depend on really anybody, you know.
And I've already gone in a neural direction, but I
want to take that on for gual direction, in a
different direction where I can uh you know, really you know,
help people, but also uh, you know, pay my bills.

(11:57):
It's kind of it's kind of hard to have that
bounce time of being able to really change the world
but also pay bills. So it's it's tough. Yeah, you
gotta sometimes you gotta choose. I changed the world, but
you also got change. I see what I heard you
there heard? Yeah, crap. It's like, you know, I mean,

(12:19):
when I was growing up, I wanted to be an
MTV VJ, like on Total plus five, and they canceled that.
So I was like, man, I gotta come up with
a new career plan. And I've done a lot of
different stuff in life, but I'm still figuring it out.
You could say, but that doesn't bother me. I haven't.
I'm still I still consider myself purpose driven, even though

(12:43):
I haven't found something that pays the bills that I'm passing. Yeah. No,
I definitely know the feeling sometimes, but it's like you
just have to keep you just have to keep working
at it, you know, like it things like that, I
guess they kind of you can pursue it, or you

(13:06):
can do the things that you know are necessary to
get there and you know what I mean, and and
let the chips fall where they would where they will.
I guess I definitely identify with that a lot, because
people ask me all the time, so what's you what's
your next move? And I'm like, I don't fucking know.
First of all, like my job security, it's very very precarious.
As an elected critical I mean, I could be here,

(13:27):
I could be gone in another four years and just
embracing that and all having to like pursue like hypothetical
other directions with it. But also, I mean the other
thing is that if you're trying to get ahead financially
in this world, you can't be staying in the same
job for like for our you know our parents generation name,
same job thirty forty years, right. But like I just

(13:49):
had a friend and without the Oakland you know, he
does it and stuff, and like the university is working
at they would not pay him what he deserved. He
had to go or he had to move across the
country to get prey when he was working. And so
there's an inherent in the way that like labor exportation works,
which we don't get into a little bit today. I think, um,
like you just the transition, the hustle, the cycles are

(14:13):
it's just it's just a part of it now that
we kind of realized how disposable people find us, and
then trying to find your passion amidst the groin and
all that. So I feel that, but I'll make a
displainmer though the very folks who I signed contracts with,
who may be signed my paychecks. Sometimes I have no

(14:35):
issue speaking out against those institutions and saying those institutions
are corrupt, those institutions discriminate against people who look like us, uh,
and those institutions are a big part of of of
just injustice in this country. And so you know, at
the same time, I am we live in a capitalist

(14:59):
system where if you opt out, you're you're not You
don't have a lot of options, but maybe live off land.
I don't. I don't have a bunch of land I
can live off of right now. So you know, I'm
kind of having to opt in. But at the same time,
I'm never gonna be so deep in or I never
hoped to be so deep in where if like horrible

(15:22):
craft is happening, I can't use my voice and mobilize
against that and support leaders who uh, I want to
change that that system. So you trying to name names
and other companies, companies that you work for or that
you that you have worked for, or maybe me. I

(15:44):
won't say whether or not I've done work for Wells Fargo,
but I think that Wells Fargo is in general a
shitty institution. And you know, they might call me tomorrow
for a six month engagement and they don't care that
I might have said that because the bottom line. It's
such the bottom line. They will say, Oh, we hired
a guy four in a six month contract, criticized this

(16:07):
on a podcast We're open lining. That's such an interesting
insight because it really is about the bottom line for them.
It's like, I don't care what you tell I don't
care what you did. It's like we're talking the last episode,
like if they would overturn Citizens United and in insider
trading in Congress, they could be you know, on the

(16:27):
bank bus on the weekend or whatever, like everybody, I
don't care because give us the good. And that's kind
of like the opposite of talable farther like I don't care.
I don't care what you do when you are a
free time or whatever. Yeah, it's like, as long as
we're meeting the shareholder objective, John, you can say fuck

(16:48):
you to our CEO, Like I don't bring him into
the office. Let's let them stay it right since their face. Yeah,
what's so like it's obviously now like it definitely seems
like you have a certain piece that you found, like
doing that to pay the bills. While your beliefs in

(17:09):
your passions might may lie other word other where. But
if I listen, I've worked on a lot of political
campaigns and I have been involved in politics a lot.
If money was driving my politics, and I wouldn't be
very progressive. So it's kind of like I have compartmentalizing,
like Okay, I'm gonna use capitalism for making money, but

(17:32):
I'm gonna let my politics be my politics. Bes And
there's some consultants out there who can, you know, make
good money in the political game and remain true to themselves,
but there's a lot who can't. Yeah, yeah, And people
try to pull on you like, oh, I see you

(17:53):
tweeting criticism about well targo from your iPhone made in China,
like you know, like we live out here, like you
gotta make make money. That's like the usual conservative like
criticism of like Hollywood celebrities and stuff. It's like they're
telling you about saving the whales, but they fly on

(18:16):
private jets like to it where like everyone working folks,
Like I'll let y'all, I'll let everybody down here slide
because like this is hard out here if you can
afford to be. If you were skating around on a
yacht and accidentally chopping whales up with your rudder or
whatever riches hill. I'm not gonna. I don't vibe with

(18:39):
that as much. First boats myself anyway, kayak. Yeah, I'm
scared of water. I like, I like. I like boats
where I could cast my fishing rod from y'alls are
a little big for that, you know. I don't think
I've ever I've never been fishing. Fishing before. Fishing is

(19:04):
a unit saw flashes in my opinion. I think it's
a It's the activity of the proletariat globally, and I
think that uh, you know, everyone on the food chain
eats fish, including fish. Wow, I have my mind blown
over here. Yeah, we have. So we've talked a little

(19:28):
bit about seeing divergence between your politics and what you
do for money, which I think we could all seek too,
because we all live, like you said, and this is right.
Let's get into like your politics particularly. I want to
start with your journey to where you currently are a
police because the chairman of the the Cab County Democrats,
you know, the Cab County for like Biden uh in

(19:48):
the last and the presidential election of points twenty. But
here you are somewhat I would say, you know, based
on my understanding of both the national and like statewide
political context, a little more less working. Yeah, average every
day chairman of the of the local club Democratic commit
So how would you get a new journey to where
you are today? It really wasn't supposed to happen. Um.

(20:12):
It took years of organizing, years and years and years
of grass was organizing to where the old guard of
the Democratic Party in the KEB and its supporters were
outnumbered by new people. And these new people might have
been mostly maybe affluent, moderate neoliberal types, but they were

(20:35):
so yearning to win that they were willing to elect
a very outspoken kind of leftists our revolution endorsed person
as the chair because they wanted to win there, Like
John's gonna put in a hundred percent, He's gonna make

(20:56):
sure that we're funded, that we just get it right.
And I think that's what it came down to, was
between me and an old system where we weren't turning
out voters. Uh in this county that's non white and

(21:18):
very democratic, and just turning the county out can make
a difference and whether the state goes blue or I'm
telling the people that all the time, like whoever shows
up and shows up with like demonstrable conviction, like will
went a lot of the time among folks that don't
have very strong, like ideological commitments and they're like, oh,

(21:39):
I'm love winning or whatever like out here, Like I see,
I was going people like rock with Republicans that they
don't agree ideologically only anything. But like those are the
folks that show up and like make promises and becoming
it okay, And but but like with conviction, like yo,
I'm here for you I should so I mean, yeah,
that's cool that she was able to get in there

(22:00):
to show that conviction con of takeover. So how was
your um leadership in the on the county committee sort
of shifted? I don't know, but yeah, some of those
policy commitments because like turning voters out is important. But
like you know, if you all have a local platform,
and how is your how is your policies that the
things have gotten interesting? Um, you know, everybody who's on

(22:23):
the current exact team is somebody I asked to run
except one person. Uh So it's it's a board that
was largely encourage you know, put there by myself. I
mean the voters of the committee voted the men, but
they were folks who've been running with me on this
grassroots journey, and we've done some things that are unpressent.

(22:46):
We centered Burning Jones, um who as someone in the
old party in the Cab County, uh never never held accountable.
And this was a guy who endorsed your w Bush.
And for the listeners who might not be familiar with
Georgia policy, as much can you explained to Vernon Jones,

(23:07):
Vernon Jones made national news. He's a as as being
a state rap black man who endorsed Trump in and
we almost immediately censured him, and we got behind his
primary opponent. Wasn't he had to stop the steal stuff

(23:27):
he was? He was definitely was that because y'all have
to see that photo of him, like crowds Okay, the
hell no? What was? Oh god? So we've got a
lot of unprecedented things like that. We endorsed and a

(23:50):
race and I mean it's for race where it was
two Democrats running because one candidate was uh just aligned
with our values. It was an unpresident moved. We fought
the state party on it. So I think when you
have leadership that shows courage, the whole committee kind of

(24:11):
follows behind you. Like we we removed an elections board
chair who had been there twenty five years. We've really
we've reformed the Board of Elections of the Cab County
through our activism. And um, I think that uh it,
when you show courage, when you show that you're willing

(24:32):
to roll up your sleeves, you're not here just to
be seen, it really inspires others who are following you
to kind of do the work. And it makes my
job so easy because I have so many folks on
this in this county party who are just anxious to

(24:55):
do the work, and it's just my job to make
sure that they have all the resources they need and
that they're they're you know, they're ready to go, that
we're ready to go. So, um, is it is it
like more of a situation where like there's a bunch
of different circumstances that are just right and the you know,

(25:16):
just and then the right amount of hard work that
makes you guys successful there or is this something that
can be duplicated other places in Georgia or even Nationalwie.
I'm gonna say this, we have some socio economic advantages
that other counties don't, and so it's harder to organize
the Clayton County because it's more working class. And so

(25:38):
the more working class of place gets, the less people
have time to volunteer. And so county party organizations are
and basically political organizations in general are built off of volunteers.
And so you the more of a working class area
you're in, the more your money you're gonna need to raise,
because you've gotta be able to pay folks. Working class

(25:58):
people don't have time to give up a Saturday. They
can't give up a Saturday. They can't. And it is
people of economic privilege, uh, suburban nights, suburban moms who
are generally the ones who have the time to put
in all these volunteer hours. Uh, suburban moms of economic means.

(26:20):
It's not it's not your ones, it's not your single
suburban moms on a uh lower middle class sellary mm hm.
And so the Cab County has a lot of that
class of people to mobilize a more working class set

(26:41):
up you whereas you may grow out and get the
other folks in call right, yeah, to talk a little
bit about earlier about like you've been able to do
some pretty unprecedented things as through this transformation of your
local party. I'm including being a little more discerning about
what candidates you get behind, etcetera. Um, so, what sorts

(27:04):
of blue? I think this is an entryway and discussing
like policies that animate your political imagination in the work
that you do. So, um like what sorts of like?
You know what, how do we get free? In your opinion,
what sorts of policies we need to begin behind and
ideally to getting behind the candidates that we can run.
I don't know if we're there yet everywhere, but in

(27:26):
a place like the Cap County maybe, So we still
have trapped of falling into these cults of personalities revolving
around our skin color. And uh, it could be a
charming black man, it could be like an Obama, it

(27:48):
could be a black girl, magic politician, but a lot
of them still have the same antiquated politics of people
who don't look like us. And so real leadership would
be exciting the people about things that are going to
benefit us. Um you know, I think so. So in

(28:15):
Metro Atlanta we have a lot of problems with this.
So we had we have Benette County has their first
African American woman, d A but she's pushing real hard
to prosecute all marijuana crimes. Is that is that black
girl magic? If you're taking away um, you know, maybe
half of an income of of of of a of

(28:37):
a black family household because you know they're in jail,
that's not That's not black girl magic. And I'm just
kind of like, we have to we have to. Uh.
That's why I think the discourse between black progressives and
black neo liberals is incredibly important. In the Cap County,
UM Commissioner Ted Terry was trying to pass uh some

(28:59):
marijuana form uh and you know, banned marijuana drug testing
in the cab counting for jobs, and it was black
commissioners standing in the way. And I think it's beyond
time for uh, particularly in black politics, for us to

(29:20):
have a discussion on a platform where the masses can see, uh,
are is black liberalism hurting the black community? Um? We
get all excited about some of these folks sometimes, but
some sometimes these folks are embracing some really antiquated thinking
that we would call white folks racist. For yeah, yeah,

(29:46):
I mean one one conversation I like haven't been I'm like,
keep care to have still, But let's so I'll have
it now. It's like, you know, we all know that
not all folk kimp folks. But I think that in
the sense of what you're talking about, these intiquated policies
that are ultimately like continuing, you know, perpetuating the impression

(30:06):
of our people. But like the fact that like not
we're talking am I talking about not today terrible but
not today No. So the idea that like, maybe sometimes
I cannot believe people are the coming out out of
my mouth, but sometimes I would prefer like a white

(30:26):
leftist candidate that is embracing like what I would regard
as transformative politics over like a black neoliberal, knowing that
like representation for representation stake is not going to set
us free a controversials, I mean, like a highly contregation.
I agree with you, I'm with you. The problem is

(30:47):
is the white leftists don't know how to talk the
black people in general. They were a little better at it,
then they would have more success. Uh, but you know
I would I'm a hundred Uh. They're with you, And
I think here's the thing. We don't have to cancel

(31:10):
black neoliberal In fact, our best hope for Georgia right
now is that black neoliberal. Let's just put it. Let's
put a flame. I love her to death. I will
go all out for her. In fact, it's my final
mission in democratic politics to make her governor UM. But
I will publicly encourage Stacy. I'm like, Stacy Abrahams, you're

(31:33):
gonna support the Fight for fifteen. You should. We're knocking
as often they are also heoliberals, but they support the
Fight fifteen. Like she. She needs to support the Fight fifteen.
She needs to support UM. She needs to support marijuana legalization.
You'll get some crossover vote on that, I promise. Yeah. Yeah.

(31:55):
And so I think I think it's okay if we,
in a love long way even push Stacy Abrams to
the left. I don't I don't think there's anything wrong
with that. We can be respectful, we can respect her
work and everything she's doing for us, and the fact
that she is he has a good chance of being

(32:15):
America's for a black woman governor. That's that's amazing. But
we also need to push her on the issue. I mean,
I think the bottom line is, at this point in
the game, I don't think we can really afford to
like fracture the whatever you wanna call the left side
of the spectrum. I don't think it can afford to

(32:36):
be like fractured or shrunk any more than it is
and stuff like that. So like I think the tent
should be big. I think there's room. I mean, I
don't think that will shrink in the tent. I think no, no, no,
I'm not saying that that's what you're saying. I'm just
I'm just saying I agree with you. Like that's generally
where I fall on is like I think that there
there shouldn't be we shouldn't be like canceling like neo

(32:59):
liberals or neo liberals or that, you know, as long
as they're not at this point in the game, like
I said, given the snakes, as long as they're not
working with the Nazis, yo, Like, like then I'm not
canceling anybody because like it's just it's too much on
the line to be like, oh they don't fall in
line with X, y Z that you know what I mean. Well,

(33:19):
if you want to cancel them, beat them in a primary.
That's that's all I would primary um beat them in
the primary. Otherwise, you know, Stacy's gonna be our nominee.
For governor. He's gonna be the less not just the
Democrats best bet, but the less best bet everyone who's

(33:42):
not you know, uh, neo fascist the best bet. And
so I think, um, I think we owe it to
ourselves into the community to say, hey, it's okay to
be black on purpose and a state. If you are
not more black people, it won't even be close. So

(34:03):
kind of you gotta phrase it like that. Don't listen
to establishment consultants who not only tell you to be
less progressive, but to not go all out for the
black community, yeah, or for like marginalized communities in general.
Like you know that that's the purpose of like all
of this anti woke of sort of legislation and sentiment

(34:28):
that they're trying to build. Is that that that is
that exact effect happens that that they you know, uh,
mainstream Democrats stay away from issues that are important to
black people or gays or transgenders or women and stuff
like that because it's deemed woke. You know, one thing,

(34:49):
I'm sorry, sorry, but one thing I want to add
to go back to this, like uh, just like, um,
I don't know the thing I posited earlier with regards
to like black new liberalists them versus white leftism. I
think you're absolutely right. White these these little white boys
with the long hair don't know how to talk to people,
don't know how to talk to people, And so I
think it's like a false choice, like, oh, which one

(35:09):
do you choose from? Because the real problem is that
I think like the black leoliberal like leadership class generally
just doesn't listen to the voices of or uplift the
leadership of young black people, who I would say are
more progressive than ever. You know, they've they've never lived
in a world where like fight for fifteen and like

(35:34):
free like legal weed, free weeds, legal weeds, and then
maybe make it free after that, like has not been
a part of the conversation, you know. Like but and
yet like when we are expected to like honor the
like honor the hierarchy, like oh yeah, pay your dudes,
and you have to you know, have enough life experience
to like know what you're talking about. Um, and those

(35:56):
are the same people that are really hard to mobilize
and engage around voting in the first But so um
we gotta like, oh, like either or our only choices
are like some core vote like Sanders sibling or you know,
like somebody that's been in politics for like fifty years. Really,
I mean it comes down to bringing in new quotes

(36:17):
that I got different perspectives because dating in here right now.
It's a matter of politics, and sometimes leftists don't understand

(36:40):
the pop pop the power political persuasion. The Fight for
Fifteen wasn't mainstream on the democratic side just six years ago,
and now it's become pretty mainstream. It's not even considered
that progressive to be for the Fight for fifteen. And
so I think that's how we have to look at it.

(37:02):
There are neoliberal folks that are mainstream liberals who we
can get on board with our progressive policies. They're there
are those who we could get to agree that, um,
this is the only way forward. And you know, you

(37:22):
have a lot of like really wonky centrist type people
who like to think, well, I just I like to
do the analysis of the policy and blah blah blah,
and you gotta remind them and well, what about wages
not growing with inflation and forever like what about CEO
wages growing but not workers? And I'm like, like, that's

(37:45):
that's the policy analysis. You should do, and so I
think that, Um, there's even there's a class, There is
a there is a section of liberals who have an
ear to it. They just they're just a little bit
more worried than leftists are about the political viability of it.
Leftist or like, screw it, this is the only way

(38:08):
we're gonna make it as as a people. Uh, where
liberals are like, well, I'm just waiting for the rag time.
And so I wanted to get your thoughts on some
things that are going on then of like happening the day. So, Mariah,
do you wanna talk about the Amazon situation? Well, actually

(38:29):
I love last question. Well, and it might take a
while for John, but I know you're very passionate about
economic justice. Um what does that term even mean to you?
I think it means righting the wrongs of centuries of
economic oppression, uh in this country, And um, certain folks,

(38:51):
it's not an oppression Olympics. The certain folks have had
more economic oppression than others, particularly the ones who were
brought here for free labor. Uh. So he's start with that. Um,
you gotta write those fronts and understand. This is where
liberals mess up every other form of inequality is attached

(39:15):
to economic inequality. So that's whether that's criminal injustice system,
whether that is the inequality and education attached to some
screwed up funding formula, whether that is healthcare being great
on the north side of Atlanta and on the south

(39:36):
side good luck. Uh So I think that that can
all be kind of. Economic justice is like the nucleus
of all the policy issues of left in my opinion,
including including um, reproductive justice, because at the end of

(39:57):
the day, it's not reproductive since if only rich white
ladies can get abortions, I think, I think that's what it.
Uh if if you talk to maybe some upper middle
class folks who are maybe okay with voting for Biden
and then voting Republican on the down ballot Roe v.
Wade is not going to impact them being overturned because

(40:20):
you know what, say, they can still get an abortion
if your others at economic questions, Yeah, they can go
out of state if they need to. And so I
think that uh, just about every issue you could think of, um,
you know, like I've seen lgbt Q plus organizations who

(40:44):
never address lgbt Q plus poverty for homelessness or uh,
just the lower economic gear of queer folks. They act
as if they're not a thing, and so I think
that uh neoliberalism. We'll sometimes try to erase that. They'll say, well,

(41:05):
as long as we get the social liberalism down, we're good.
I'm like, no, it doesn't work that way. Everything has
to be funded everything, show me the money. Yes, absolutely,
it's not just about like, oh we're inclusive, like you
know these companies that you're trying to do like e
I training saada da, but have to like not asked

(41:25):
to touch my hair or whatever. But it's like also
just pay or just paying people more. Just like where
where where are you putting? You know, you're just you're
just putting money into training and you're not putting any material,
not transforming people's material conditions, which oftentimes makes you know,
create these racials, you know, gender disparities, etcetera, etcetera. Put

(41:47):
the money in folks hands, period. I don't care. I'm like, oh,
we hot, you know, oh we uh you know, like
just oh we're culturally sensitive. Yeah, I hope your pocketbook
is culturally sensitive. And if you all your money, I
mean yeah, I mean like the corporate grift is definitely
like one thing. But I don't necessarily think it's as

(42:10):
a separate issue. I don't think it's necessarily like misguided
to attempt to change the culture when you're attacking something
like racism and sirs. It's only part of it, though, Yeah,
it's exactly. It's only part of it, just like with anything. Though.
It's like if somebody's just doing it and they're like, oh,
this is the this is the one step fixed all tool,

(42:32):
then obviously you're going about it the wrong way because
it's you know, you would think that that, like most
people would would understand, like it's a bit more complicated
than issue than like, yo, don't touch your coworkers there,
you know what I mean. I think what's missing from
modern liberalism is the fact that you really can't perform

(42:58):
all these other systems. It that liberalism will try to
reform everything before they address economic justice. I'll you'll try
to receive a criminal justice system reformed, You'll try to
see a school system reformed. But how can you do
that when there's still this disparity in basic resources and

(43:22):
it's staggered by skin colors so much, And so I
think they skate around it, and they don't like being
confronted with it. But it's a hard reality that I
think it has. It has to be addressed. And I
think also, I think we wouldn't have to worry about

(43:42):
losing mid terms right now if the Biden administration, let's
say a reparations bill had passed the House and it
got stuck in the Senate and President Biden made a
big speech about it sucks how it got stuck in
the Senate and this is why we need to expand

(44:05):
the majority. I guarantee you more black folks if it
was about that would be coming out for mid terms.
We wouldn't have to worry about us coming out for
mid terms if our issues weren't continuously thrown under the
bus after we save everyone's asks. And so I think, um,

(44:25):
it's something to think about. Lack of courage isn't rewarded.
And we're playing a risky game now, not going all
out for the people who want us several swing sticks. Yeah,
y'all trying to really trying to really stave off fascism. Like,
y'all gotta get with it, because this is not it's

(44:48):
not gonna work in a long term, y'all. It's not
gonna work No, not not at all. I mean, like
I said, scared money don't make money. You can't it.
I mean, you can't talk all of that ship. When
the chips are on the line and the elections on
the line, it's like, yeo, this is like the most

(45:09):
important thing ever. We've got to stop this rising fascism.
The Proud Boys are coming Trump's side of control. The
Republicans are crazy. And then when you get in power,
you're going about the ship like it's not really that serious,
you know what I mean, Like you're not even treating
anything with the urgency that you were talking just a
year ago, Like that was just a summer ago. But

(45:32):
you know what I'm saying. So yeah, it's like these
motherfucker's don't really want to win. I don't know, Well,
it comes down to this. It's it's the more it's
the Diet Cola brand of white supremacy racism that is
more prevalent amongst liberals. It's a Diet Cola version because

(45:55):
it's not culturally acceptable for liberals to be as nasty
as the far right. So you kinda have to kind
of you show a Diet Cola version by sweeping it
under the rug. And saying now let's get to the
people who really matter, the regular Americans. Words like that
are used and so working class right, So basically color

(46:20):
blinding the whole situation. That is the liberal version of it.
And you know it sucks like hell that are people
have to choose between fuck you and oh I don't
have time for you right now? Can I can I
get you to expand on that a little bit, because

(46:42):
like something that I find just whether it be with
certain like leftist pundence I listened to, or even when
I'm you know, interacting with like leftist spaces on Twitter
and stuff like that, I find that there tends to
be like and it could should be me personally, but
I tend to see like this sort of like economic

(47:05):
essential ism from some leftist to where it's like the
economic aspect of things is the only thing that matters
and don't pay it to you know what I mean. Like,
there's a certain color blind sort of push I find
from some people who leftist as well. Leftists can be
a big part of the problem. Um uh, there's a

(47:29):
lot of white leftists who have no clue how to
be intersectional, and they have just as much problematic white
supremacit thinking it's just in a more progressive form, and
it's even It's like liberals they have to culturally adjust
to what's acceptable. Leftists have to as well, and so

(47:52):
you can't they can't get away with saying what you
could say and fire right crowds. So they try to
color blind everything and say, oh, it's all class and
I'm like, and I'm like, it's it's I would say,
it's not all class, it's it's class and race. And
you can tell to Like one of the things I
say to them is like, man, Medicare for all is

(48:15):
super dope. But if you're not even thinking of including
black people and when you're talking about it, then like,
am I just supposed to be stupid? Like? Oh you
said that? You know what I mean? Like? Nah? Like
did you be like that? Sometimes? Do be like that? Sometimes? Well,
at this point, do you all want to uh segue

(48:36):
into discussing a little bit what's been going on this week?
Get some of your reactions down to well, let's uh break. Oh,
you're right, you're right, you're right. I'm tripping. I'm tripping.
We still got to pay these bills. I gotta pay
these bills. We'll be back after the joke. The big

(49:01):
thing I will talk about this week. Come on, let
me let me get it first. Let me get it first.
I had something before we went to a break. I
was about to I was about to ask ask something
I wanted to get. This isn't like the best. I'm
not saying mine is the best or oh I'm so exciting, Okay, John,

(49:23):
I wanted to Did you pay attention at all to
any of the U in particular hip hop aspects of
the Grammys. Tyler the Creator one Best Best Rap Album
with this Yeah Yeah Album? I didn't realize top I
heard it there. I didn't know that should happen until

(49:44):
this morning. I'm gonna be honest. I did not watch
the Grams for free over here, and not a single
one of them. I heard the great things. I had
had a friend who was there, so I saw some
Instagram stories. I heard it went better than the Oscar

(50:11):
Wait who want to? Yeah? Who? Who wanted? All? Right?
So on the hip hop and um or hip hop
adjacent type stuff. Tyler the Creator one Best Rap Album,
You'll Call Me If You Get Lost Kanye One Best
Rap Song with Jail featuring jay Z, Little Baby One

(50:34):
Best Melodic Rap Performance Best Melodic Rap Performances a category
that's dope um with the song Hurricane featuring Kanye West
in the Weekend, it actually sounds like that might just
be a way so they can give R and B
singers a rap grabmy without saying it's R and B.

(50:55):
Best Rap Performance went to Baby Keeman Kendrick Lamar for
the song Family Tie and Yeah. Yeah. Those are the
main hip hip hop related grammy wins. Did you hear
any of those albums? I heard the Tyler joint, it
was good, mar and Baby came. I heard I'm gonna

(51:22):
be honest. I stopped listening to Kanye several years ago.
Met me too. I listened to the old Kanye. I
do listen to the old Kanye, but I haven't listened
too much new Kanye. Yeah, no, no, okay, unless he
shows up. He'll like show up on the random, like chance,
the rapper saying, not really, well, like the field is there.

(51:43):
You can feel Kanye in the music and you're just like,
but apparently doesn't Capparently he's doing noil. Now he's got
older dark money, so he's doing something right. Okay, so
we're here's That's interesting, right, because you know, if I
do take a survey of the age range of the
three of us right now, me and you John are

(52:05):
in are like mid to late thirties, Marizon or early thirties.
So why it like what's going on that none of
us just are completely oblivion because to the fact that
the Grammys took place and we're like, yeah, I heard
that one song. When we're all talking about the stuff
that won, I don't any of those like show like

(52:28):
award shows. I've never I've never. Hip Hop is a
very wide, wide genre, and so you can be a
hip hop hit and I'm not a hip hop hit.
I listened to a lot of hip hop, but I'm
nothing closed to being a hip hop hit. You give
me a hip hop hit and still not listen to everything. Yeah,
I don't know, Like I honestly, you know, I gess,

(52:50):
I guess. I guess I heard the Tyler album and
then I did hear that Baby Kaman Kendrick Lamar song.
But I mean, definitely the other stuff definitely kind to
kind of missed me. And it's it's not like I
wasn't listening to a lot of music. I guess this
is just you know what I mean. The it's just
like it's like a particular I guess, like like little

(53:14):
carving of like all that there is out there that's
actually involved with the Grammys. That it's like, if you're
not super in tune to wherever the hell people are
getting updated on that stuff, are you? It kind of
like it just kind of skipped that fast you by.
You don't you don't even know that the ship took place.
It's like John said, it's a warm hoole. I keep

(53:34):
falling backwards and forwards in the hip hop chronology in
terms of what I listened to. I'll be like I'll
just discover like an album from my favorite like my
Nick Jake it's from my two tho, Like why Wilt
go through the whole time? What the hell? There's not
enough time to all to keep to keep up with everything.
But you know, being a winners at the Grammys. You
know who else won this week? Amazon, Labor Union, got

(54:01):
that ship. Everyone for the listeners, everyone's dancing on camera
right now. Yeah, and so that's super exciting. I mean
I am slightly bumped for like my homies down Investmer, Alabama.
Who are you know? They early tallies look like they lost.
You know, there's probably gonna be some sort of n
LRV challenge and try to like get it overturn again.

(54:25):
But so it was. I'm a little heartbroken for them
because you know, I'd love to see the south wind
but first first unionized Amazon warehouse in the country up
there in stud Island. Do you know what some of
the things that they're gonna be like working out to
change when they yeah, and they're trying to get thirty

(54:45):
dollars an hour they want um paid to PA repaid
breaks to thirty minute paid breaks and then an hour
for lunch, and they wanted to totally completely stop changing
any HR policies like that, um like between now and
when they start to like bargain with the union. I mean,

(55:07):
it's everything that you said sounds like super reasonable, but
that he didn't even literally like no, they're just coming
for what they deserved, not men sports here, Like literally,
this isn't a big deal. Let's just get this done
with yo. But interesting fact I learned is that Chris Smalls,

(55:30):
who's the president of the Amazon Labor Union, uh, the
guy that's got fired into a tony for the to
walk out over like the coronavirus policies and like being
organized ever since. So he is a rapper apparently, Oh
that before like in a former life went on tour
with Meet Mill. I did not know that about Chris Small.

(55:51):
So that was like a little nation right there. We
gotta it's like we're like highlanders and it. You know,
it's like we're in all walks of life. You run
to somebody's like yo MC yeah, I used to Nope,
I gotta say you're you're you're leading a labor union

(56:14):
and you're a rap. That's actually really hard rappers, yeah,
and politicians very similar and very similar times. People say,
very similar skill sets only differences. Rappers are not contivation
behind the two. I would like to see mainstream rap
affected with uh a labor union rapper. Like I feel

(56:38):
like mainstream rap is more neoliberal than actual neoliberal politics.
Mainstream wrappers actually kind of like mainstream American hip hop
has got like a lot of at least from an
economic standpoint, I think it's got like a lot of
right wing sort of yeah, right wing is more like it.

(56:59):
But you know, neo liberal is a gentle way of
putting it, Like, yeah, exactly a lot of shaming. It's
a lot of poverty shaming and made sap it and
I mean it's like poverty shaming from like it's not
even like a superficial like Nana Nana boo boo sort
of way, like my car so much doper than yours.

(57:20):
It's like on some philosophical like you're broken, you shouldn't
be bro It's like you shouldn't be broke, only real mannery,
it's like time out. Don't don't get me wrong, I'm
not into policing art, but I would not mind if
that went away from I would not mind if that

(57:42):
just went away because it's living in Atlanta, and in
Atlanta that impacts the actual culture in the streets, Like
I it hits you. I'm like, whoa, No, I agree,
you know, like it's weird Joe, and to the point
where it's like if you if you just listen to

(58:05):
the stuff, It's like, man, I'm not saying this has
nothing that there's not like a quality judgment, you know
what I mean. This isn't like, oh it's whack or whatever.
I'm talking about like the actual like way that the
ship like feels and you know, I personally I have
these like other political beliefs and ship and they bleed
into the art that I consume. So yeah, there's like

(58:25):
certain elements of listening to it where it's like, man,
this is this is nothing. If this didn't have a
beat behind it, like I wouldn't. I'm just wondering how
many women who were like born to like working class
or poor fathers say broken niggas don't deserve No, you didn't,

(58:50):
You didn't deserve to be born No. Yeah? Yeah, Well, John,
thank you so much for coming on the show and
sharing some of your perspectives from on the ground. Um,
do you want people to catch up with you? Yeah?

(59:11):
Like if you do want people to find you, where
can they find you? To drop of? Like this, yo'all
want people who know about you? I want people to
know about it. I want I want people to cancel
me over it. I don't care lit Man j J
on Twitter, Instagram, John Jackson on Facebook. Yeah, hit me up.

(59:35):
He watched all the smoke all of Oh Man, Well
thanks so much again, Man, and uh, oh my god,
thank you for coming out. This was super fun. Plus
I just don't know what anything hang out with you,
so it's like good hanging out with you again, Yo.
So that's my homie, John. I appreciate you coming on

(59:57):
once again. Bro. Think something we're gonna talk more about
on the show that we can really got into with
him was like the reconciliation of like the things that
we do for money with like the fact that we
are inherently participant in like a sick and toxic system.
I appreciate him as like a you know, financial analysts
working with these big companies that like he's also outspoken

(01:00:19):
about hating uh yeah, and you know, like there's various
ways that we like play the game, but like you know,
don't participating in boycotts or avoiding certain companies or participating
with certainly Yeah, yeah, exactly. I Mean that's something that
we both I wouldn't say struggle with, but it's something
it's a it's a it's a reality that we both

(01:00:40):
come to grips with, even with posting our podcast and
doing the O you know, and according to the other
things that we do. So, I mean one thing we
got to grapple with, Like as artists, we are like
take this with a grant of salt, but we are
capitalists and agree to like I get some money together
and buy some T shirts and then I sell them

(01:01:01):
more than their work um to get the money and
so like I get I make money if by had
like by having money, you know, like you know, I
don't know stuff like that. It's one of those things
where it's like what the idealized you know, world that
you would like to live in, budding heads with like

(01:01:22):
the real world that you do live in. It's one
of those certain things, you know. It's like we all
have to play the game because we don't have any
other there's no other world for us to live in
other than the one. Yeah, I just have you. I
have to at this point, like it's my career. Like
I don't know what else to do, you know, you
know what else we have to do because it's our career.
That's bit wraps and ship. All right, let us get

(01:01:48):
a beat please. Oh you said you're gonna kick one
of your customers during this okay, word, I want to
hear this all right? Joel dropped that drop that Oh yeah,
who we be? It's that rhetorical question, who we be? Yeah? Yeah,

(01:02:12):
weight on reparations, You better give me my paper. My
people and Amazon they was organizing for labor black and
brown and the yellow the games we got manny flavor.
We never crossing the pick and lion march in front
of the mayor. Hey, we want lunch in the bathroom.
Break we want more to cash you make. I've been
eating too long as fact, you say, but you should

(01:02:33):
have built on my back. You break because of y'all green.
Now we all stock spe ships to the side. We
can see y'all butt. Why be the billionaires that we
all trust? Why never funk with no elon must or
birds came to get under the bundaid that they see,
not to fight for what they owed for body lining
up the Coke for a multi national folk United bargain.

(01:02:55):
Divided with slave and staying broke, the Coke responded with
brutality written in their families. Some leaders disappeared and some
others would badly beat five fatalities. So the workers took
it to the court seeking justice protragedy station door. And
still today they're fighting for what they worked in the
face of intimidation. Even no one that homeless had gotten

(01:03:18):
their lives cut short standing before they write to stick
in it to the bosses. Because the name of the
game is always people over profits. Hey, hey, hey, this
is Dope Knife and you have been listening to Waiting
on Reparations. See you next week. Plea. Listen to Waiting

(01:03:40):
on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.