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August 20, 2025 51 mins

Cheryl McKissack On Her New Book 'The Black Family Who Built America' + More

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I feel like I did a whole interview already. What's
the way up with you? And Cheryl McKissick.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Daniel is here with me. You know her as the
CEO of Meckisic and Meckisic. Thank you for joining me today.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
I'm so excited to be here with you, Angela.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm excited to have you.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I could just talk to you about other things too,
And I want to say, you have a book out
right now, and I read this whole book, The Black
Family Who Built America. You know, real estate is fascinating
to me, but even from the development side, I love
the way.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
That you're able to tell this story and it gave
me like such.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
A nice inside view on the work that you've done
because I know you, but now I really know you
and I know your whole family now I feel like
for reading this book.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
So how do you feel now that the book is out?

Speaker 4 (00:48):
I feel like I have finally accomplished something I've been
working on for over twenty years to get this story
out because so many people just don't know who the
mckisics are, and so many people people don't even think
about who built the structure that they're sitting there in right now,
or that they go through on a regular basis. You know,

(01:08):
even just the train stations in Manhattan or the airports
or the schools universities.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
People don't ever think about, well, who built this.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Or that a black woman could be behind that.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
A black woman could be behind it. So I'm excited
about getting that general information out and bringing awareness to
our industry.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, you are a fifth generation business, which is such
a rarity in any race, no matter who you are, right,
that is not something that happens too frequently. And as
I'm reading this, I'm just thinking about how you were
raised into the family business. And I was reading it
and thinking, like, man, if I would have been exposed

(01:48):
to certain things at a younger age, maybe I would
have wanted to be a developer or an architect if
that was something that I had known when I was
a kid.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
But sometimes if you don't see that, you don't think
it's even possible true.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
And that's another thing that this book is doing, is
letting other people know that this is an option as
far as a career path and an industry. Now, I mean,
you're quite successful in entertainment, so I do right, you know,
I'm not sure you want to consider that now.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
But you know, because I was reading this and I
was like, I already got my real estate license, as
you know, and then I already was like, I'm going
to get my GC license because I see some of
these gcs and I'm like, I could definitely do that
because I feel like I had a GC and I
felt like I had to tell him stuff. Oh right,
you know what I'm saying, because sometimes they just sub
things out and not all of them, obviously there's some

(02:41):
good ones. But I feel like CERTA people are look
at it and I'm like, they could do it.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
I could do it.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
Well, that's true, I mean, yes, but you got to
stay on top of general contract.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yes you did.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
It's a tough business in New.

Speaker 4 (02:53):
York City, and there are a lot of regulations, and
you know, it seems like they're changing every day. The
new creeps up that you know you need to know
about as a business person. But you know, I'm excited
about this business. It's it's in my blood. I've been
doing it for god knows how long since I started

(03:13):
walking construction sites as a little girl with my father.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Back then, it was all about.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
The boys right now and even today, right, there's still
times when you can be in a space and be
like not just one of few women, but maybe sometimes
the only black women.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Oh gosh, the only woman.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
Definitely the only black woman, no doubt about that. I
mean that early on in New York City, going to
any of our trade association galas and dinners and things
like that is just see of suits. You know, you
just you just didn't see any any women or people
of color in those places. I have to say it's

(03:52):
it's getting better now. A lot of the MWBE Minority
women owned business programs that the current iministration is trying
to do away with, they have been very helpful for
a lot of these businesses. I mean, over the years,
I have seen the percentages of the requirements on these
contracts grow from like five percent to like almost fifty

(04:17):
percent right now.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
And you're working on JFK, right, Terminal one is terminal one,
terminal one. So when it comes to mwbs, what is
the requirement there for a terminal one? Because I know
that's something that intentionally you have to be like, okay,
we need to have some type of you know, representation here.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yes, So the client is the poor Authority of New
York and they have a goal on the owners of
thirty percent.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, but as you know, the owners.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Are well, they work Carlisle Group, but now they sold
to Parrovio. But we also have Jim Rentals from Luke
Capitol and Magic Johnson, and so Jim and Magic both
have said, oh, that's our floor.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
We gotta to do. That's a minimum, a minimum of
thirty percent. And I'm glad to say that.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
You know, we have the participation of four hundred and
fifty minority and women owned businesses and we have a
spend of over a billion dollars at this point. And
you know that is because the owners have made sure
that we do that, you know, because there's so many loopholes.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, there are, right, and we think about mwbees that
also like for women. And I've learned this just from
you know, getting part of the program as well. But
a lot of times I've read that, like you know,
white men will have their wives get an MWB daughters, yeah, daughters,
family members, yes, and so that's kind of a way

(05:48):
for them to slide into that program and keep it
in the family.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yes, that is true. And the real legitimate women owned businesses.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
They don't like that either.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
They don't want to see that happen because then there's
a stigma out there about them.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right. People look at you like, are.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
Are you really certified or not? But it is another way,
because more than fifty percent of the minority women own
business goes to the white woman designation.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Right, And so they act like it's all these black
people getting things, but it's really helping them.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
And then it's even helping us exactly.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
You know.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yes, one thing I.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Want to say too, and you know in the book
you gloss over relationship things, right, we need to show
them a kissack Daniel's Relationship book because listen, I know
things are good now, but you went through a lot
when it came to relationships. And I wonder if sometimes
being a powerful woman and coming from a powerful family

(06:51):
can be intimidating to a man.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
Absolutely, it can definitely be intimidating, especially when your circle
is full of men. Construction is basically a man's world.
So most of the clients and you know, partners that
I have are men, and so that is intimidating, uh
to your husband or to your mate or whoever you're with.

(07:18):
But I've had some strong some strong men who were
able to handle it, you know. And then early on,
I think people just didn't understand how I was going
to navigate through construction and if it would even be successful.
Because when I first came to New York, it was

(07:39):
all about Wall Street and you know, the buppies. I
don't remember the buffies.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Gosh, I know the neighborhoods. I know the vibe of it.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
It was.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
Yeah, so the buppies. That was all about working for
Fortune five hundred companies in Wall Street.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
So if you weren't.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
Doing that, then you know, you weren't really a shaker
and a mover. So I don't know early on if
I was even considered to be a shaker and a mover,
just more of you know, this poor black girl out
here trying to promote her company from Nashville, Tennessee and
the big city of New York.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Man, I think we'll pass.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
You know, even before you join the family business, you
also worked though you had other jobs. You worked at
other firms before you ended up saying Okay, your mom
called you and was like, we need you back here. Yeah,
you know, your father had had a stroke and she
really needed that support. How important do you think it
was for you to step out and step away from
the family to learn things on your own before returning,

(08:47):
or do you think that because I know you have
daughters too that are in the business as well right
and preparing for that, But do you think it's valuable
to say, let me go learn things somewhere else and
then come back and bring that with me.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
I absolutely think it's valuable.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
And it's also just natural to resist what's right in
front of you that you know you can just step
right into.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
But to go out and work for another.

Speaker 4 (09:13):
Firm, and a firm that's much larger that you know
is a basically a white male owned and dominated firm.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
It really gives you. It's a positive and a negative.

Speaker 4 (09:28):
The positive you get the great experience that you need
for your own business, but also lets you know there
could possibly be a glass ceiling there that you know
you don't see anybody in leadership that looks like you,
And that's how it was back then. And so you
begin to understand right away, well, if I want to
chart my course and be in control of my destiny,

(09:49):
then maybe I need to go back and do something
on my own. And I'm glad I made that choice.
I mean, I feel like at the.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
End I won with that.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
It didn't it wasn't all always easy, and people didn't
always understand it. But I look at it now and
I see that. You know a lot of my friends
who went into the Fortune five hundred Corporate America and
they went the corporate route. You know they're out now,
right because they ask you to retire at a young age.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
I'm retiring when I get.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Ready, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
And you probably even when that happens, you're still going
to have a hand in it. I mean, it's still
a family business about to be what six generation.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Exactly six generations, So I think it's natural to do
have a little bit of rebellion against your family business
and to go out and try something new, and it's
good to do that.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
One of your first big projects in New York was
the rail system for the Barclays. Yes, right, And that
was fascinating for me to read about that story because
I remember all of the drama of is this Barclay
Center going to happen or is it not? And then
there's the argument that people from the Unity can have
about why this is not going to be beneficial because
that does happen, right, And I'm going to and remind

(11:08):
me to bring this back to this casino that's happening
in New York. I want to bring it back to that,
But first I want to talk about the Barclays. You
detail it and the book. If I like something that
may not happen, and I think it was like six
years from when you first signed on to be able
to do that, that things were able to happen. So
walk us through that, because I know people who are listening.
I just love these insider stories about how things were built.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Yes, so Bruce Radner had this amazing vision to build
Barkley Arena in Brooklyn over the.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Rail yards and you know, and to buy.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
The Nets team, which to me really revitalized that whole
area and brought something home to Brooklyn because you remember
Brooklyn had the Dodgers, yeah back in the day, and
we lost the We lost the Dodgers. So now to
have a professional basketball team just really revitalized Brooklyn. But

(12:08):
there was a lot of opposition anytime you're trying to
build something in such a heavily densed area, and so
you know, they were trying to use a little bit
of imminent domain, and you know, they had to take
over properties where owners didn't want to relinquish their properties
or they wanted to hijack them and charge Bruce Ratting
or a whole lot of money. So that's just one

(12:31):
of the dynamics he had to deal with.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
But then dealing with the expense of a project that size.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
I mean, you're moving the rail where the MTA is
stores their trains during the day, and you know, you're
moving that to a temporary location while you're trying to
buy out the permanent location.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Undoable it is, And you know what, there's.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
So many I wonder how we get anything built in
New York because it is almost undoable. And you know,
but that's interesting you say that because JFK. Turmer One
had the same problem. Wow, yes, you know, we had
the same you know, touch and go like is this
going to work? You know, from one minute to the next,
you know, house the politics gonna play out.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
And so.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
I have learned to understand in New York eventually, if
it's a good enough project, it's going to get done.
It is rare that I've been a part of something
that just totally failed that was of that size and
magnitude because that's a mega project.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
I mean he went way listen, talk about way of
a budget.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
But you know, to even backtrack before that, though, what
I love is that while you may have pitched yourself
for that, right, you ended up getting the contract for
the rail yard that wasn't initially what you were going after.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
No, right, And so talk about that a little bit too.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
Yeah, No, we we fit much better being the contractor
or the construction man for the actual arena, but that
portion of work had already been given away to another firm,
and so we were offered to do the construction management
to move the rail. Well, we didn't have one rail

(14:15):
project under our belt at the time, and you know,
I saw that like a glass cliff, like either we're
gonna make it or we're gonna fall off the cliff
and totally crash. But that's the nature of how you know,
you can begin to start a whole nother division in
your company if you're willing to take the risk and

(14:38):
do the hard work to get it done. And so
when they offered that piece, I said, absolutely take it.
Well I'll take it, you know, give me whatever you have,
I'm gonna take it. And so when I got those
plans a few days later, and they were as big
as this table here, and a bunch of them. I
just began to reach out to my network find out

(15:00):
who could help me on this project. And so we
started off with a real small contract.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Really, it was doing an.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
Estimate for a portion of the work. And the contract
itself was like two hundred and thirty five thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Hey, I read that, I would say that sounds like nothing.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yeah, nothing, I know.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
It balloons quickly, though, It balloons quickly.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
And you know, they called up my good friend Jim
McKenna and like as a reference, like do you know
this woman?

Speaker 3 (15:32):
And he was like, oh, yeah, definitely hire her. She'll
get it done, you know.

Speaker 4 (15:36):
So you know, those are the type of relationships that
we need. When someone's saying something really good about you,
when you're not even in the room, you're not even
thinking about it, those are the type sponsors we really need.
And so I credit Jim, he's president right now of
Hunter and Roberts. I credit him a lot for our
success in winning that project, but also Bruce Radd Neer,

(16:00):
Bob Santa and all the others who said yes, let's
give them a kusic a chance. They know they have
not done this work before, but we know that they
can pull it off right. And then, you know, one
thing led to the next, just going to every meeting
that I could, and when the especially when the client
is there, and if the client put out they had

(16:21):
a problem, then right away I'm the one who's going
to solve.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
It, right. And that's the energy people need.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
That's the energy people need, and people need their problems solved.
You know, you can get so comfortable sometimes in your
position and who you are and what you've accomplished and
your you know, experiences that you forget to say, I'm here,
I'll do whatever you need me to do right now.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
And you know what else was great about this book
was getting some of your family history. But in the
midst of getting the mckissack family history, we're also getting
the history of America. Yes, you know, and so there
were so many things in here that I was reading
about for the first time, but also connecting the dots
on a lot of things.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
And what I really.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Realized is when people talk about, well, you know, slavery
is in the past, pull yourself up by your bootstraps,
where everybody's on an equal playing field right now. And
when we talk about all the things that have happened
in the past, it still affects us to this day.
And when we think about the current administration trying to
get rid of DEI everywhere and making sure that we
don't have certain opportunities and there there's a lot more obstacles.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
And when you think.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
About building things and having things taken away from you,
or you think about Tulsa, or you think about the
education system, or you know, just things like that, and
reading this book, it just does reinforce why programs are
needed because there are so many things that happened for
us that got squashed like that are still affecting us

(17:45):
to this day.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
Right and you know, it's structural, so it's very hard
to change it. You know, after George Floyd, a lot
of the Fortune two hundred corporations, you know, put in
place programs to see what they could do to help.
But it was a structural It lasts for the twinkle
of an eye and then it was gone. So that's

(18:09):
not helping us long term. You know, we need real help.
When you think about venture capitalist money out there, and
only one point two percent or less goes to companies
of color.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yeah, capital right, and you know the business. I mean
it's capital intense. You better have some really good you know,
some money and connections and good connections to build anything
in New York City.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
So what do you think about this casino?

Speaker 2 (18:40):
And I want to I'm sore there's all this conversations right, Like,
I know, there's a few different bids out right now
to get a casino built in New York. One that
people are talking about a lot is the one because
it's Rock Nation. So of course in our world we
see those stories more and you see both sides of things, right.
You see people saying, well, this is going to bring

(19:01):
similar to the Barclays where they were saying it was
going to bring a lot more congestion, a lot more traffic.
But now they're also saying, well a casino is gonna
cause more issues with people, people addicted to.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Gambling, prostitution and things like that.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
What do you if you were saying, if if you
were going to give me your just unbiased opinion of
what you think about a casino in Times Square, what
would your thoughts be as somebody who has done huge
projects in New York.

Speaker 4 (19:27):
So my opinion is biased, it's not unbiased, okay, because
I'm a partner with hard Rock and Steve Cohen.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Okay, So I want to see a casino at the.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Mets, okay.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
And the reason why that makes sense is because Queens
needs something big, you know, and you know, you fly
into LaGuardia or JFK, you're ten or fifteen minutes from
that location.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
And that location right now is wide open.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
It's a parking lot, and so to have something beautiful there,
I think you can control it a lot better than
you can at Tom Square.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
So I am not for Tom Square.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Now we had a conversation about this behind the scenes,
because I do feel like we do have places we
could put it that's not.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, Tom Square is going to be something that you
kind of have to.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
You know, it's going to be floors of casino. If
you go to Vegas, Atlantic City, the best thing about
a casino is all on one floor and it's huge,
and you get all of that excitement, all that energy
on one floor. I just think if it's broken up right,
that's just not going to have the same effect.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
And then you can go right from Terminal one to
your casino now I go right from from now.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
We talked about politics briefly here, right, but politics have
played a huge part in what it is that you
do for a living, and like you said, relationships and
relationships might be one of the most important things. So
when it comes to right now, we're talking about the mayor.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
In New York.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
City and who is going to end up being mayor,
I just want to know. And sometimes it's haired right
because you don't know what's going to happen, so you
don't want to It is harrd because no matter who's
going to be mayor for somebody you didn't want, they
can't really hold a grudge against you, but they kind
of can. But what are your thoughts about what New
York City needs and what they would need in a mayor?

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Right now?

Speaker 4 (21:31):
It's a tough city to run, and you know, and
you know, at the end of the job, no one
makes it except Bloomberg. Everyone else sells off into the
sunset and you never hear from them again.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
Because New Yorkers are tough.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
But we need somebody tough, and we need someone who
understands the system and politics. I feel like at the
end of the day that we're going to play a
role regardless of who's mayor, because anyone who becomes mayor
is going to need our expertise when it comes to

(22:06):
design and construction, especially how it's set up the city
with respect to that. We have a housing crisis right
now that you know, some some politician needs to set
the right policy in place for that. That's the mayor
and the governor. And so at the end of the day,
we're gonna be fine. We're going to play a role

(22:28):
in it. Do I have my favorites, yes, but I
reach out to everyone and I can get to know everyone.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
You know, my father I.

Speaker 4 (22:36):
Remember back in the day and I don't know, I
can't even remember if I put this in the book,
but he said, I'm an afrocrat, Okay, an afrocrat. So
he doesn't care if it's a democratic wherever wins, that's
the party he's going to at the end of the
election evening.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
So and I saw him do that, I would go
with him.

Speaker 4 (22:59):
And he had relationships with everyone, you know, because at
the end of the day, it's about finding consensus. It's
about agreeing on something. You know, we may not agree
one hundred percent, but if we're a sixty percent.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Okay, right, that's good for me.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
You know what, that's so important because one thing that
you said in this book that I found to be
really important is that when you have a partner with
a partnership with somebody, you do want that person to
be comfortable with that partnership.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
You don't want to go into a situation where the
person's already mad about whatever they did or didn't get.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
And that's been important for you in business too.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
You know, sometimes you are like, Okay, I wanted to
have majority ownership, but I'm okay with forty nine percent,
you know, and you detail things like that.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
In this Yeah, if that's going to send the job
lessons here, Yeah, if that's going to get the job done,
and that's going to make everybody feel like they want
because at the end of the day, we have to
build the structure, and that's going to take a minimum
of two to three years, so we're going to be working.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Together for a long time.

Speaker 4 (24:11):
I don't want you to feel that I took advantage
of you in any way. I would want my partner
to know that we work together to come to a resolution.
But I also say in the very beginning. Here's what
I want, right, I'm clear on that I may not
get it. But if you don't ask, you're right. If

(24:32):
you don't ask, you definitely won't get it.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, listen, that is a fact. Now, another thing that
happened in this book. This was so crazy to me,
but meeting with the saudiast oh.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
I did not.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Know about this, And this was really really interesting to
me to read about because automatically you hear that name
ben Laden, yes, and it just evokes all kinds of emotions. Sure,
you know, for people here, So just and listen. You
got to have to read the whole book to hear everything.
But I just like these little anecdotes for us so

(25:09):
that people can understand, like all of the different ways
that we can go here.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
So I got a call from a friend who said,
I have this consultant working with the Saudi's. They want
to build X number of soccer stadiums and I think
it was eight, and they're looking for some American companies
and they want one of those companies to be black.

(25:33):
I'm like really, So I continued to talk to her.
We met, you know, I kept vetting the situation, and
then I said, well, you got to tell me who
it is we're meeting with. They're like, no, I can't
tell you. Matter of fact, we need for you to
fly to London and meet with him in Hampshire, like

(25:56):
next week, like right away. I'm like, well, I need more.
I mean, I gotta get on a plane. And they
wouldn't tell me. It wasn't until we were in Hampshire
at the Four Seasons Hotel walking into a meeting that
they told me I was meeting with Sod Ben Lawton.
I'm like Ben Lawton, like ind Ben Lawton, Yeah, his brother.

(26:20):
But Sad was from the original family, the ben Lawton family,
who were the largest contractors in Saudi Arabia, and so
Osama Ben Lawton was from one of the concubines, so
the father had fifty some odd kids. Osama was one

(26:41):
of them, and so that gave me a little bit
of ease.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
But you know, you're still going into.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
A meeting shell shocked over the name and who you're
meeting with, And in my mind, I'm just thinking, how
am I going.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
To play this?

Speaker 4 (26:56):
I want to get back to the US. Who can
I talk to you about to get support around this project.
The minute you say to ben Latin name. Oh yeah,
it's a it's but you know what, they turned out
to be some of the most sincere people, and I
felt bad for them because that names also Sod had yeah,

(27:18):
and Sod had had gone to school in Boston, and
he said, I could never go back to the US
and I missed Boston, I missed New York. Just bring
me anything you can from the city of New York.
And I mean, like I would take some little trinkets
right off the street that said New York, New York,
and he would love it.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
He's like, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (27:40):
And so, you know, can you imagine having billions and
billions of dollars and you can't come to New York,
you can't go to.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
LA, you can't go anywhere in the United States.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Huh.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
You know With that, I was thinking, are there times?
Because business is business? But are there people morally? Does
that matter? Like if you're like, well, Marley, I don't
like this person's stance or things that they've done. And
I'm not talking about that case, but I just mean
in general, I'm sure have there been times when you
were torn about making decisions based off of I don't
know if that person aligns with what I stand for.

Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yes, absolutely, and it wasn't in Sod's case. I would have,
you know, worked with Sod to the end because I
thought he was a genuine businessman with integrity. But you
do run across people who you can tell right away
don't have that same integrity. They wanted to use, you know,

(28:37):
the Mecisic name, put it out front, but only give
you ten percent of the partnership. And so that's not
right either. And so those people I'd had to walk
away from, I'd have to say, no, I can't do
business with you, or no, I can't take your money,

(28:57):
you know, because it's wherever it's.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Coming from, right, it's not the right place.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
What would you tell somebody who is say they're new
in this business and they're just starting out. They've done
the groundwork, But how do you know when to like say, okay,
I can do the ten percent because I'm trying to
build my business, or do you need to really walk
away from certain things because you know you want more
Because there's a lot of times we know we want more,
But when you're newer in this game, sometimes you have

(29:26):
to like build that up.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
No, I agree, like early on, they're you know, unconventional.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Maybe that's the best way to put it. Things that
you know, you.

Speaker 4 (29:35):
Might have to just bite your tongue and take it,
you know, go ahead and take the ten percent or
whatever it is to get started, because if you don't
have any revenue, you don't have a business. And then
but then understand this, this takes time to build up.
It is not going to happen overnight. But eventually you

(29:55):
can get to the point where you can say no
to people, or you can put people in their place,
can say I'm not doing that. And here's whyfe you
want to work with me. Here are my boundaries, here
are my standards, and you got to you gotta do
it my way or we're not doing it at all.
And so early on, you know, you got to do
what you have to do to generate some revenue. And

(30:18):
I understand that, I say, do.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
It right early on, early, go on, do it.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
How important was knowing your family history and putting in
this book for other people to know as well, because
you know the name definitely rings Bells. And I also
love the way that you framed it because just early on,
thinking about like your great great great grandfather and him
being in this business and the obstacles that they had,
but still being able to have a team. And I

(30:50):
think even for me understanding how slavery was different, you know,
amongst like the slave owners who had a smaller team
of people versus people who had like you know, we
all see movies and think of the slave owners who
had like huntings of spaces outside on the plantation. But
people had different relationships obviously with you know, depending on

(31:11):
what their team was like and your family, they were
able to make it happen for themselves as far as
when it was time, you know, to be free and
get work done. They had so much skill and so
much ability under their belt that was passed down and
passed down.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
How did you learn.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
All of these stories? Like was this something that your family?
I just don't because I don't know my family history
like that. I know, you know, my grandfather could fix
watches and because I used to see him do it,
But I don't know where he got that from or
you know what I'm saying. It's just like certain things,
it made me feel like I need to dive deeper
and get more information.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
Yeah, well, I have to say it all started with
the family tree, and then the stories associated.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
With that family tree.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
You know, I remember the stories of you know, my
father talking about his father and how he had all
these names, and he had all these names because his
grandparents had seven boys, seven girls first and then seven boys.
But they wanted they wanted boys. Every time they had

(32:20):
a girl, they wanted a boy. So the first boy
got all the.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Names of the girls.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
I mean, the boys think ought they were gonna have.
So his name was Molses Edward John Henry Lewis mccause.
So you hear these stories growing up, you know, and
it's fascinating, right, You're like, first of all, how does
anyone have fourteen kids?

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Right, I'm telling you.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
And so you know, it starts with just writing down
that family tree.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
And then I remember another story. They used to say, oh,
we're related to the Maxim House coffee people. I'm like, really,
the white So you know, I got to the bottom
of that story. And the real story is that the
mckizwick slave that.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
Was given to as a wedding gift to the Maxwell family,
he married one of their slaves. So it wasn't like
he married a Maxwell and he married a slave, right,
And so you know, you.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Just start getting to the roots.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
Even the name, right, even the name of Kizzwick is
a name someone was in Ireland.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
They called me up. It took a picture of sent
it to me.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
And I'm like, yeah, well I'm the black Irish. I
still like to drink.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
With us, you know.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Uh yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
No, the history and Nick Child's did a lot of history.
He did a lot of that research, like as far
as drawing in the way slaves were treated, because what
we were trying to do is figure out how did
the mcasics make it through slavery and Jim Crow and

(34:18):
segregation and racism in the Deep South.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
How did they make it?

Speaker 4 (34:23):
And so that was probably what started us doing a
lot of the research that we did. And then to
find out that, you know, the slave master put one
of the mcusics in business and that was common practice.
And you know, I'd like to think like at that time,

(34:43):
that's when the.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
Birth of a nation.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Oh God.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
So Nick came up with that.

Speaker 4 (34:49):
He's like, surel we had this birth of a nation
that took place right around this time, and I'm sure
it affected your family business. So let's look into how
that affected your family business.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
You guys even had a cross burned on the front line.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
And that was my generation.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
I mean that is who would think and for people
who act like oh things, And so that was in
the past. The fact that that could happen when you
were a kid is so wild to me.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
No, but Angelo forever. Even What's even more.

Speaker 4 (35:23):
Traumatizing is I was at the house of Avon Williams,
a civil rights attorney who lived right down the street
from Jay Alexander Louby. Okay, so all these people right
a half a block from Fisk University's campus and Ma
Harry was right behind their house. So how someone could

(35:46):
come into our neighborhood and burn across is ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
The house next.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Door was where Honor Bond Toomps and Langston Hughes used
to come visit him.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
That is crazy.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yeah, to think that people will still exist, you know
like that, and and back to like talking about government
and policy and you know you survived through Giuliani.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
I survived through Julia. That's in there too.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Right, yeah, I mean all the.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Laws in New York City, you know.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
That is to me.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
I just felt like even with the w MBS at
the mwb' s right, wubs, it helps, But it's not
like the b all and all, you know what I'm saying,
And people act like we're losing this because they're giving
it to unqualified.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
That is so not what's happening. So what's happening at all.
There's there's so many, so much opportunity out there that
we don't get a chance to even be on right
to participate on. Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's all around us
every day of the week, you know, And I think about,
you know, the larger construction firms, how many are are there,

(37:00):
you know, it's like seven or eight of them. They're
doing everything else.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, that we're not doing.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
So you know, there was even a point where you
got denied a project because of they did a financial
clearance on you, right, right, but they weren't doing it
to other people.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
They yeah, they did that to you.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
And then we're like, oh, well, sorry, you don't have
the capital, you know, the liquid that you needed to
be able to do this project, right.

Speaker 4 (37:25):
And they wouldn't even tell me what what the goal
was they was. They just said you don't have it.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
And I would think at that point, it's like I've
proven myself. Do you still feel like you have anything
to prove.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
Yeah, I still feel like I have to go in
and prove myself over and over again, absolutely, and overcome
the stigma of being a minority, black owned business because
that comes with the stigma.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Too, it does.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, I just feel like you've done so much work
and proven yourself your family alone, And I think, what'd
you say three thousand or buildings and projects and church
six thousand.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Six thousand? Sorry?

Speaker 3 (38:08):
Whoa six thousand churches? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
I mean that to me, it's kind of like, what
is there still to prove? But do you do you
think that white companies feel like this, like they come
in feeling like that. You think that's just a thing
in this business, or you think just being.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
No, they can be mediocre and yeah, and they don't
have to prove anything.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
No, it's just you know, people say a lot of
times they'll fill up like something cannot work and somebody
will build them out. And a lot of times we
don't have that system of somebody to step in and
be like, oh this didn't work, well, let me make
a call for you.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
Right, And that's across the board. I mean, I'm selling
our business not just to our clients. I'm selling it
to employees. When I'm trying to get the best talent
out there to work for my company, I'm selling that.
I'm selling it to banks, insurance companies. Everywhere I turn,
I have to sell it to someone. So no, it's

(39:06):
it's something that has to be addressed. But it's so
deeply ingrained. I don't I don't see how that's going
to happen. And that's exactly why we need these programs,
because these these programs allow everyone to have a level
playing field to enter the game, just to enter right.

(39:30):
And you know, then after you enter, like you said,
you can build a reputation and you can point to
the work that you've done and zaff that you have.
But if we don't have these programs, where do people
get started? How are things now?

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Because you know, we hear a lot about what's going
on with the tariffs, How is that affecting business for you?
Because sometimes we don't think about you know, obviously for
all of us, we'll see the prices rising when we
go to the supermarket in so many different ways. I mean,
I'm a small business owner, and I can see that
people aren't coming out the way that they used to

(40:07):
and having to up charge for things.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
I mean coffee.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
The price of coffee has gone up, you know, because
of the territs, and it's really hard for us to
have to pass those costs on to people who are
already strapped right now. But how is that affecting your
business right now?

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Well, the cost the cost of equipment is higher and supplies.
But the only project that I've seen that it really
affects is Terminal one at JFK. There we're we're in
we're finishing up phase A. But now Phase B is
supposed to be starting. But now it's being slowed down

(40:45):
because air travel has decreased because nobody. People are saying,
we don't want to go to the US. We don't
want to be bothered with all that joy. Now we
are not looking not look good. We are not.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
So it's affecting to.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
So that project is slowing down, and that I definitely
you know, is affecting our business.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
What about even as far as because I've heard people
say who are in the in construction that it's even
hard to get people to come to work at times
to build because even if they're here legally or they're
waiting for things, there's so many laws that are getting
reversed and people don't know what's going on. People getting
stopped and deported that shouldn't even be getting deported. How
do you find that's affecting or is it affecting your business?

Speaker 4 (41:29):
That hasn't affected us as much. Most of our project
our union projects, so we're drawing from the union halls,
so we haven't seen that. But we are trying to
bring it employee right now, trying to figure out where
he's from. But he has to go through immigration to

(41:52):
get here, and that has been prolonged. And you know,
we need this person to work at a high level
on one of our projects for the MTA, and you know,
we thought he would have been here back in July,
but here we are getting ready to go into September
and he's not right. And so you think, you know,
you've gotten through all the paperwork, and then this administration

(42:15):
comes up with something else that has to be done.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
M M. I mean, it is a wild time.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
And with that being said, I want to also stress
the importance because sometimes people feel like voting doesn't matter,
and not even just for the president, but we're talking
about mayors, we're talking about governors, we're talking about local
officials and we see how this can affect business just
across the board. Just we were talking about mwbe's and
how those were affected during Juliani and how things are

(42:43):
being affected now with who's in office, and so that
is something that I just want to stress too.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
That's one thing I was thinking when I was reading it.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
I was like, Ooh, this is a perfect reason why
we all need to make sure we know who's running
for office and to get out there and vote too.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
We absolutely need to vote. Some people feel like, oh,
this doesn't affect me, but it does.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
If you use any government services then I mean your water,
your sanitation, everything, education, all these things affect us. Now.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
You know what if they take all black history off
the off the books are they're working on.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
It, I'll take all the books out so that one
thing where they try to say slavery wasn't bad.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Did you see that?

Speaker 4 (43:26):
Yeah, the teaching trying to teach that and they're trying
to take get rid of the worse.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
For them, slavery wasn't so bad. I was like, what
it is, it's a cartoon.

Speaker 4 (43:35):
Well, yesterday and the Sunday Times, you know, they had
an article about the administration trying to get rid of
any indication of slavery. Yeah, yeah, you.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Know that is that's real history. Like I'm like, y'all
wouldn't have any if it wasn't for you know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
It really happened, Okay, but they don't. They feel that
they don't want it in their face.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
They don't want to be reminded. So you're trying to
get rid of.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
It and get them reparations. Then we can, you know, get.

Speaker 4 (44:08):
The I want my reparations. I don't know about you,
and I want it in the forum or no taxes
forever forever.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Oh my god, that would be a dream come true
in perpetuity, no taxes. Oh my gosh. Listen, I can't
see that happening. Well, not right now.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Maybe you never thought about running for office.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
I did a long time ago. But now you've read
my book, you see I can't pass. Oh no, and
you didn't even get the galley.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Well.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
I do want to say this, though, work life balance
for you, because there was a period of time when
work was so stressful for you that you had to
learn how to even take some time for yourself. And
so talk to me about what that balance is looking
like now because like you said, you have all these
different projects, you have a buck out now that you

(45:01):
are promoting you know, family and everything, and so what
was that balance?

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Like?

Speaker 2 (45:08):
I mean, some people tell you there is no such
thing as balance, But what are some things that you
have learned that you would share?

Speaker 4 (45:14):
Well, I think you can get some balance out there
between work and your personal life. I think it's important
to center yourself on a daily basis early in the
morning and then we have a meditation room in our
office where I take advantage of it. I call it meditation,

(45:36):
but it's really a.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Nap I sleep. We need that.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
It's a thirty minute power nap.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Those power naps are good for your health. Sometimes you
definitely need those.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
They really are.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
And so you know, I think it's important that you
do take time for yourself because, as you know, I've
had a stroke February twenty fifth this year, I had
open heart surgery, and so all of these things are
the result of not taking care of yourself.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
So if I'm not good, then what's it all for?
You want?

Speaker 4 (46:13):
You want to have good health, and so it's important definitely,
and you can't have that balance. It's important to spend
time with your family and you know, whatever's.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Up to your husband.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
I know.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
I need to learn more about that. Okay, that happened
so fast.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Got to keep your eye open, follow your intuition. Your
intuition will not lie to you.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Send I'm telling you we need a whole shouse.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Daniel's story about that aspect, the relationship stuff, because I
want your daughter is because thinking about how you probably
do have your parents crazy when you were young, did
you give them some knowing how?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
He was definitely like, you know, like me when I
was a kid.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
Yeah, no, I gave them a lot of grace. But
then I wasn't my mother either. My mother was like
a general okay, so she reigned.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
We did not curse in front of her.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
You know.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
One time my sister and I called her a bitch.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Oh my god, you.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
And she's like, what did you say? We were like nothing,
not a thing, nothing.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
But because of that, that made us want it to
be really mischievous.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
We wanted to, you know, especially me.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
Yeah, I did that a lot more than my sister
early on, but I got it out of my system.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
I think that's good.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
You get out of your system at a young age,
so you're not later on in life like exactly rebellious.
It's also nice that you had your sister with you, yeah,
you know, and along this journey.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
Because it could be very lone, especially you know, going
to high school. Well, K through twelve, we were in
an all predominantly white school that was private, and you
know when we first went to that school, maybe there
were six people of color in the entire school K

(48:19):
through twelve where we graduated, we graduated with five or six,
you know, black folks with a class of seventy five.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
So you know, that's so tough.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yeah, trus me, I went to well, I went from
kindergarten in sixth grade, my school was pretty much all black.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
I think there was like two white kids in the
whole school.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
But then I went to private school and that's when
I was like, I was so it was.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Tough, Yeah, it was so it was good to have
a buddy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
And then you went to Howard like, oh yeah, please.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
Hands down the best experience ever.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean we're thinking about they're also
talking about HBCUs and trying to expand in more places
outside of the South, and I know that's been a conversation.
Really yeah, that's going on now, so you might want
to get your hands in, you know, building some of
these campuses. Absolutely, you said, really yeah, let me know
about that.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Listen.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
That's the only way I could see it happening.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Okay, Well, you know, congratulations on this book coming out.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
I loved reading it.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Like I said, I'm a person who absolutely loves to
read all about real estate, to read all about the journey.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
That you've been on, you know, just me having known you.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
I admire you so much, and I feel like this
book really gave me a glimpse more into your personal
who made you who you are today. But the family
that oh look the family, the black family who built
America and we got it definitely a chance to learn
more about that. Even I came to your office party
and you talk about the meditation room, but there's also

(49:52):
like beautiful artwork, yes.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
You know, on the walls.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
It felt like a lot of things, which is very
intentional for your office and your staf.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
Absolutely, we have invested a lot in black art, and
you know it is it's pieces that other people may
not have known anything about, an artist that people may
not have known anything about.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
But we featured them when you when.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
You came, I literally did a tour. It was like
a museum.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
But that's amazing to be able to come and see
that like on the walls. You know that it makes
you feel like really proud to yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
Proud that we can actually produce this beautiful excellence.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
You had a lit party too, say I'm coming back
this year.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Oh good, thank you. We want you there, but.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
And you guys, make sure you pick up this book
and read it if you haven't had a chance to
do that. Are you doing any more dates for you know,
in person where people can get a chance to meet.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
You or yes, we have a date October twenty second
with Charlemagne and then we have Atlanta the tenth of September.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Okay, Nashville's sixteenth.

Speaker 4 (51:09):
Of October, and so yeah, we have quite a few
dates coming up.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
All right, Gay, we got to make sure we look
for that.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
What's the website so I know where we can if
people want to come and meet you in person and
get their books signed and have that conversation.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Is there a website?

Speaker 2 (51:24):
I know, you know, go ahead dot com? Okay, chermachisic
Daniel dot com.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Oh I forgot coming up. Troy.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, oh and yeah he was at the Rashad was
there too at the holiday party. All right, Well, shout
out to them. That's what I'm talking about. Thank you
so much for joining me.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Oh my pleasure.

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