Royal Ramey’s Mission: Second Chances, New Careers & the Power of “Firebreak” + More

Royal Ramey’s Mission: Second Chances, New Careers & the Power of “Firebreak” + More 

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's up his way up with Angela Yee And what
an honor today to have Royal Raimi here with me.
He's the co founder and CEO of the Forestry and
Fire Recruitment Program.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
We see the shirt.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
Yeah, he little some some you know.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
But your journey to get to starting this and this
whole mission has been amazing. So for people who maybe
haven't seen you on TV already, Senior Ted talk, I
would love for you to just break down how you
even co founded this program.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
So, I don't know if folks know that California have
been utilizing incarcerating people to fight wildfires since the nineteen forties.
So it's been a massive personnel shortage in whileland firefighter
since then. And you know, folks get paid a dollar
hour to do the work. Right up until the last month,

(00:52):
a couple of bills have been passed where they can
be able to get seven dollars and twenty five cent
to be able to fight fires for you know, for
for that seven seven dollars and twenty five cent hour.
And so my story I was, you know, young dah
and made some some poor choices in life and I
ended up getting sentenced to six years in prison, and

(01:14):
out of that time I did four years eight months
and from there, the last twenty months of my sentence,
I actually went to fire camp And.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Did that help you get out earlier too? Going It didn't, Oh,
it didn't, didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
It didn't because of my crime and stuff to what
I committed. Ended up robbing a drug dealer. Thought that
was the easy money.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
But you know, you're like, they're not going to right right, right?

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:35):
So did that and then I end up you know,
serving that time and it was like eighty five percent,
So like I had to do the time, okay, And
but I fell in love with while laying fire fighting
while I was there. But it just didn't make sense
to you know, for me to gain those that knowledge,
skills and abilities to do it do it and not
being able to you know, pursue it as a career

(01:56):
once I come home. So when I was in camp,
you know, I was like, you know, talking to people like, hey,
you know, is it doabo right? It's like, well, you
got a feeling me, So if you have a feeling,
you can't become a firefighter.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
That's ohio.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
But I could do it while I was incarcerated, right,
But then when I come home, I can't do what
I was doing.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Right, right, So that didn't make sense to me. So
me and my co founder, Brandon Smith, we was in there.
We was talking about it and it was like, look,
once we figured this out, we want to start a
nonprofit organization to help people. And luckily, once I came home,
end up receiving like twenty four certifications, getting my finishing
my EMT course, and then I ended up getting hired

(02:33):
with cal Fire, the state's fire department. And from there
that's when we knew we had something special. And you
know today being helped over three hundred people get jobs
in the fire service since twenty eighteen.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Now I want to back up a little to these
fire camps, right, So this is an opportunity that they're like, hey,
you can do this. And what made you decide that
was an opportunity that you wanted to take because that
is also putting your life on the line too.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Right, right, It was a couple of things.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
So first, you know my mama, right, she was like, look,
whenever you be able to get back home from so Mississippi,
So they shipped me out. So around that time, there
was overcrowded crowded, right, So I went from California to
Arizona to Mississippi and my mom was like, you know,
whenever you get opportunity to come back, I need you
to come home. I haven't seen you for years. So

(03:23):
that was one of the pieces. And then when they
offered me that, I'm like, okay, uh, you know, trying
to figure out, like what is fire camp? You know,
it sounded cool, but I didn't really know. So when
I there was like, yeah, twenty four hours of the side.
So when I went back to the dorm, they was like,
you know, fire camp is dope. You know, you got food,
got wade, you got all these different things. So I'm like,
all right, cool, this is something I should be able

(03:44):
to do. And plus my mom, I wanted to see
my family.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Man.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
When I got there, I was like, I didn't know
I was gonna be carrying this back. I didn't those
two of these boots, you know, I traded by George
for these boots, and you know, I know these blazing
his fires. I'm like, this is its crazy, right, But
then you know, I was doing some self healing while
I was in prison and really educating myself and putting
myself in a position where I wanted to change the

(04:09):
way I thought and really embrace the my emotional intelligence,
right and.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Just like really deep dive, deep dive.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
You know, into myself and like, look, I don't want
to go to you know, I want to do this
for the rest of my life. And I see so
many ogs that was in there. It was like, look, Roy,
like you not, You're not that guy. You're not built
like this man. You got you so too smart, You're
too talented to be in prison, and you know, just
trying to figure out my passion and I just embrace
it and I love it. It was the most mentally, physically,

(04:40):
emotionally challenging thing I've ever done in my life.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
But I can imagine because that's not an easy job period.
What So during these fire camps, what did you I
know you talked about the boot, but what did they
have you doing?

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Like, was it real the.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Same training that firefighters go through when they're on the outside.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, they give.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
You some minimum training honestly, but they don't give you
the certifications to back up that, to validate your experience.
So once I came home, obviously I figured it all
out on how to be able to maneuver. But yeah,
you get that minimum training and it was up in there.
You just you're pretty much doing the same thing that
a wild land firefighter would do, right, right, So that's

(05:19):
where you know, just gaining experience understanding you know, you
know the tens and eighteens which we kind of use
when you when you're doing wild land firefighting and understanding
those fire line tactics on cutting line. So you have
a good a plethora of skills and knowledge that you
received in there. But it's like those other kind of
things that to be able to become a professional understanding

(05:42):
like the certifications you need and really understand what you're
really actually doing out there, which that's where our organization
provide that wrap around services give you the understand because
like the biggest thing about the fire service is culture,
right and understanding how to navigating and be a professional.
Firefighting is a lifestyle, right, It's not a nine to five,
right yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Because you can't predict, like only have a fire between
nine and five, right.

Speaker 4 (06:05):
Right, right, right, So just even just the you know
folks that come from our culture, right, like, they got
to understand how you know, so to be transparent, you know,
the fire service in California at least is dominated by
white Caucasian.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Men, right, and when you haven't been around to many.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
Of those folks in the culture and how they get down,
you got to be able to conform, right. So it's
those things around how to be showed professionally in that
space and show that you are knowledgeable, you understand how
things work, and you not, you know, a distraction because
you know, obviously when you walk in the room is

(06:43):
if you're white, or or you're a woman, or you
a person of color, right, it's a whole different park.
You might be a one person of color in that station, right,
So you.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Got to be able to know what's going on.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Man, I can't even imagine what that's like. So you
come home and you have a felony. So now what
are the restrictions when it comes to now going to
get your certification when you have a felony? What do
you have to do to be able to achieve that?

Speaker 4 (07:09):
So to be honest with you when I read the application,
So it's different. It depends on the fire agency. Okay,
So the force service, which you know you do pretty
much a two week two week certification academy where you
get that, and then you apply to the to the
federal government, and you know, they have kind of a

(07:31):
more of a strict background.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
Right now. With the state, it's different.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
As long as you have certifications, they do their own
little thing, right, but it's not as extensive as the
federal government. So it's like it depends on what you know,
agency that you're trying to.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Okay, so it doesn't matter, like, I know, you gotta
you got a pardon from Governor Newsom on behalf of
the state of California.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Shout out to my guy. Appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
You might have to be president one.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
Day, absolutely, you know, honestly, you know. But so this
issue is a bipartisan right issue, and I appreciate both
sides of the OWL have you know, supported the organization
on multiple different levels. But obviously, you know, hopefully, you know,

(08:20):
things can kind of shape different right in the world today.
And it's been something that I've been kind of nervous
about talking a little bit because I got so much
good support from from both sides.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
But at the end of the day, you know, I do.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
Appreciate him, you know, spearhead, and you know, me obviously
getting a pardon, but also with a between forty seven,
which that helps folks that's been formally incarcerated in fire
Camp get their record e Sponge and then also shout
out to Scott Wiener for helping us get you know,
four million dollars to the state budget. So it's been
some instrumental people that's been really pushing pushing the envelope

(08:55):
for us. But yeah, you know, we hopefully we'll see
twenty twenty eight eight eight.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
I mean, we can understand you having an allegiance though
to Governor Newsom, because that's where you got your partner from.
So I could see why anybody should be able to
see that, you know, I mean so even when you
did when you got in played and like you said,
it's a lot of white males, how was that even
trying yet another obstacle, because how was that as far

(09:23):
as getting hired, because I can imagine that it might
that might have been a really challenging and difficult time
for you to be able to even have someplace say okay,
we would love to have him here.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
One of the best things that I've done was go
to college, and one of the classes that I took
was it was called the Inner Personal communication class. So
it really gave me the landscape of understanding people and
how people move and you know, thought processing, just like
being able to communicate effectively. And when I went there,

(09:56):
because you know, it was it's nepotism, right, you got
you know, and cultures you have you know, it's.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
You know, a little a little hazing in there, you know,
trying to.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
See if you really about this life right, And a
lot of stuff correlate to the streets to firefighting actually
like which I kind of have, you know, I'll break
it down when when when folks are in their career
training program. And it really gave me the ability to
understand that, you know, folks, that's not you know, the
same as you, right, and being more open minded and
having a conversation because I and talk to some of

(10:26):
those folks and I'm like, dang, like you have a cold,
you got a colder story to me, like you came
out of the trenches.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Too, And they have to be open minded as well, right.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
Absolutely, and that and that's where that bridge. And being
able to show up and show like, you know what,
I'm here to do my job. Also, I'm here to
be able to be a team player and understand the culture,
and once folks kind of like get you to that level,
then they be like, you know what, Okay, cool, this
dude is. You know, it's cool. And that's where we've
been kind of like, you know, teaching our folks. It's like,

(10:54):
you know, you if you're the all person out right,
like obviously you have to like you know, turn it
and turn it off, right, you have to. And that's
just with any anything you do in life. Right, you
can't just come. You have to show up professional and
being able to you know, see people for not only
just who you are, but just gain that respect. And
once you gain that respect, then that's when all the
other things come. So folks can be able to say,

(11:16):
you know what, like I appreciate this person coming in
and being being about the about the culture, and you know,
being able to be professional moving forward.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, you've also credited Barack Obama's leaders program with
helping you come up with some of.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
These abilities and skills.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
And ways to maneuver. Can you talk to me about
that program and what that did for you.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, it was great.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
So definitely when it comes to like tough conversations and
how to talk to the opposition, right. One other thing
that was really important for me was advocating with decision makers,
right like when you when you're in a space where
because because I'm a workforce development, criminal justice and climate
resilience kind of like nonprofit that we built, but I

(11:58):
wasn't hip to advocacy, right, So that right there kind
of gave me that understanding of like how do you
maneuver in those areas when you're talking to assembly members,
when you're talking to senators, and understanding how things move on.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
The political side.

Speaker 4 (12:14):
So it was it was definitely those different pieces and
obviously networking and putting us in the room and like,
don't have that imposter syndrome, like you should own your
space and own you know what you're doing because you
are special, you have great you know you can contribute
to society in a way where you know you you
you know you solving a solution. So now shout out

(12:37):
to my Obama Foundation, folks. I'm actually going to la
As to the Road to open and I'm going to
be doing a quick little seven minute speech and talking
about how great it was and the experience, and it
just really gave me that power to to to understand
my voice and what I can be able to really
do and just validated me as a as a person
and also as a leader in this space.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
I love that because sometimes we can have the best
intentions start an organization, but then to keep it going,
you have to raise money. You have to you do
have to talk to these politicians. You and like you said, advocates.
An advocacy is a whole nother field to be in,
and so you can't be effective unless you're able to
raise money and let people be aware of the program

(13:21):
even existing. And like you've said, three hundred people, right,
you've you've already helped and trained.

Speaker 4 (13:28):
Yes, absolutely, And we have a career training programs eight weeks.
The first four weeks comes with like certifications that they
need in order for them to get an entry level position.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
With that's great.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
So this program gets you the certifications already, So that's
one okay, one step.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
And then also they get paid the stipend, right, they
get financial literacy through our partnership with Chase. They also
receive like life skills that's amazing, help them with the
application process and then understand how to apply to these
different fire agencies. And yeah, and I got a shout
out to my director of social services, and she helps

(14:08):
with all the other different you know, mental health, you know,
relapse prevention, conflict resolution, all those other different wrap around services.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
That's important for us.

Speaker 4 (14:19):
Because you know, when folks come home from prison, folks
have trauma, you know, and being able to mentally prepare
them to be from considered a public nuisance to a
public servant.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Right, it's a whole different ballgame.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
It's not a just not a job at Amazon, or
it's not like warehouse job or you know, this is
actually a family win a career where folks are making
between sixty to one hundred k a year with benefits
of retirement. And that's where I think the life changing
piece when it comes to folks and men and women.
So we got two women camps too, and we had graduated.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Sixth and merely I don't know if I've ever come
across a woman firefighter.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Oh yeah, we got them, I.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Think, like in my all my life and I know
they exist, but I have never ever seen one, like personally,
that's crazy, right, I never thought about it.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
You might have to come to la or amazing.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
I love that, Like, I think that's great, but I
have to imagine that coach is hard too, because like
you said, it's a very male dominated space and so
you know, having to even the adjustment you had to
make as a black man, imagine being a woman. Also
imagine being a black woman who we already got it right.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
It's tough.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
And I've been building a partnership with cal Fire and
one of the second in command, her name is Chief Blue,
and she's been setting a tone around like, you know,
women that have that leadership position, and you know, it's
really important to show diversity in the fire service and
providing those opportunities, and women are solely for surely making

(15:49):
it happen. And we excited about you know, the women
that we graduated in our program and them thot thriving
and thriving into the space too. So it's just being
able to you know, understand what they're getting theirselves into
and how to make move. And we just started a
high school program and I want to target student athletes.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
It comes to women.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
I think they you know, coming out of high school,
it's kind of like they're young, they're fresh right, and
they you know excited about you know, the physical aspect
because when you know, obviously in sports they have that
already element, so that's some of the one of the
toughest things around that. And then obviously you know, as
they grow older, they might have a family and stuff,
so that kind of like could be a thing. But
we're trying to figure out multiple different ways and providing

(16:29):
opportunity for all people of color and folks that's in
marginalis communities and even women.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Ironically enough, if you would have never made the mistake
that you made at a young age, you wouldn't even
have ever considered this as a profession. You would have
never started this nonprofit, you have ted talks, you would
have never had a documentary about yourself. Like that is

(16:55):
wild to think about because maybe some you know, sometimes
you are the way that things unabout because I'm sure
when you were there first you were like, how the
hell did this happen? But then later on when you
look back, you have to think about like things happen
for a reason to lead you to a certain path.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
Absolutely, and I think you know, fire count was one
of the best things that ever happened to me, even though
I made some mistakes when I was younger. Now paying
it forward was one of my biggest things and when
you talk about black women, that one black woman that
inspired me to start the nonprofit with my co founder
is Harriet Tubman. You know, thinking about that analogy, right,

(17:34):
you see that folks are being incarcerated, right and having
this opportunity but then bringing them to freedom so they
can be able to thrive. And I just wanted the
world to see that folks like me can go from
being a public public servant and being able to go
from incarceration into you know, freedom and being able.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
To have this career. And yeah, it's been crazy.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
It's just like this whole year since the LA fires,
like you know, the platforms I've been on on and
talking and building this thing up.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
It's just been it's amazing.

Speaker 4 (18:05):
And I'm just appreciative of like my family, my wife,
my kids, my you know, my team, and all the
people that have been supporting me since the since the beginning.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
And I know a.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
Lot of folks you know, those late night, early mornings
and appreciating you know, those talks and just you know
folks and supporting that don't get that shine and that's
shining through me in some way, shape or form. So
but yeah, The Fire Fire Break is our documentary that
we got out. It's been in a film festival circuit
kind of like floating for the last like ninety ten months,
has been getting some good fraction or attention, and you know,

(18:40):
excited about what the next the moves are with certain
people to be able to you know, put it on
the big, big stage hopefully one day and listen.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
I can't wait to see it, and I'm interested. And
climate justice is one of the topics for that documentary
as well, and that is such an important conversation because
these wildfires and what's happening with our planet and climate
change and all of that. These are really important things
that I feel like have to be front and center
as we're thinking about not just ourselves but.

Speaker 4 (19:09):
The future right, and so our organizations in that intersection
between workforce development, criminal justice reform, and the climate resiliency
and when you look at you know, when you break
it all down, we want people to be able to
you know, work right and contribute to society because obviously
we got to pay taxes, right, you got to keep

(19:29):
this thing going. But then also with the criminal justice,
thing that people don't really understand is that rehabilitation and
public safety goes hand in hand. Right, So when folks
are not committing crimes and they're working, then that kind
of pushed the whole public safety piece. And then the
climate thing is like really a thing right when it

(19:50):
comes to wildfires. I don't know if you know about
California as much of the research you've done, but one
of the issues is that it's called the wild land
urban interfaces where a lot of folks are living in
and it's like their homes like close to this vegetation, right,
and when fire starts, like once, the fire kind of

(20:10):
does its own thing, and it's really wind driven fires
that really you know, dominate input, you know things and
harms danger when it comes to like folks evacuating and
homes getting burned up, Like you got all this fuel
mixed with homes and a lot of folks have this
wood shingle roofs, right, so the embers come preheated and

(20:31):
start going and then next thing, you know, fires is
you know, going crazy.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
I don't know if you've seen that movie.

Speaker 4 (20:35):
I think the last bus actually is on that fire
with cal Fires called it was the Campfire, and it's
just like it destroyed the whole town and the palisades
in twenty eighteen, and then now we're seeing it in
La right with the Palisades and eating fires.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
And give you a couple of stats.

Speaker 4 (20:51):
Thirty one fatalities, eighteen thousand homes structure destroyed, and fifty
eight thousand acres burn combined with those two fires, and
it was like two hundred thousand people were forced to evacuate. Yeah,
and the economic loss is estimated to be as high
as one hundred and thirty five billion dollars.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
That's wild, right, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
You know, my best friend lives in LA and when
that was how she had to evacuate, take her kids.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
They were in a motel.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
But people are also thinking about, like we have this
crisis and you're just happy to be alive. But at
the same time, you're thinking about, like this was my
whole life, like my and it's I can't even imagine
what that's like. That's you know, So we commend you
for the work that you're doing. I was curious when
you came home, how was it for you to even

(21:36):
have to tell people about like that you were, because
I know sometimes that's an issue when you first come home.
It's hard at first for people to even have to
come forward and say, well, I was incarcerated and here's
what happened. Because I know people that are like man.
At first, I was like kind of embarrassed. People judge you.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, it depends on who I was talking to, right right.
I did let some folks know, but then some folks
I didn't let know. And I want my work to
speak for itself, and but eventually I knew once we
so we had a guy. We had received the half
man dollar grant from the Border State of Community Corrections
when I was working for CalFire, and then Google dot

(22:13):
Org matched it, and then my boy and my co
founder brand and he was like, look, we got.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
A million dollars, big dog. I need you.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
I need you to figure this out with me, Like
let's let's really make this movement.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
And I was like, oh, like I.

Speaker 4 (22:24):
Just have finished academy with CalFire, Like I'm on, Like
I got my benching, you know, I got you know,
you know, I got a good reputation in the field.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
And I was like, oh, I know. Once I say
it right and I.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Put myself out there to the to the to the world,
it's like it's something that I can't take back.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
And I don't.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
I didn't even know how this was gonna work. So
I literally sacrificed my career just to do this because
I knew, like I just knew that one day that
I hopefully I would be on my deathbed, right and
when I see my family around and be like, you know,
not only I can be able to support them and
do my thing for them, but also knowing that it's

(22:59):
other people that I could affect long term and want
some you know way shape or form and providing them
that opportunity. So like that was a moment that I
was like, you know what, that was like the one
of the hardest decisions I ever made in my life.
And I'm glad that I did it.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, I'm glad.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
It's that courage to be able to do it because
it's tough, like because everybody, so you know, people just
think about themselves. But knowing that, you know, you have
the power to influence provide you know, people opportunity, and
I think that's something that you know, it's very important
to me. And then that's one of the things I
learned in the Obama Foundation leadership too, is being able

(23:36):
to understand the importance of sacrifice and even transition, like
transcend you know the culture and racing and like know
that you have the power to do things, you should
just do it.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
So I love that.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
All right, Well, thank you so much for joining me today,
Royal Raimie the Forest and Fire Recruitment program. So when
you have the opportunity to see Fire Break the documentary,
make sure you check that out. Google his talk, make
sure you check that out as well. I saw you
also talking about and I want to end it with
this too, just how effective your program is. And they

(24:08):
were talking about the recidivism rate and for people who
are in your program, you said it was ten percent
that low or lower lower.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
So now it's like less than sever percess it's like
six point five.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
But what's the average outside of.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
So it's about forty percent in California.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Right now forty percent recidivism rate.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
But for people who were part of the Forestry and
Fire Recruitment program it's less than seven percent. That's a
big deal. It just shows the type of leadership that
you're instilling in people. The confidence, but like you said,
the economic factor of it too. You have a job,
you have the ability, you have your voice, but you
have the skills to be able to do that and
provide for your family.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Absolutely, And let me leave you with this.

Speaker 4 (24:50):
It costs one hundred and thirty two thousand, eight hundred
and sixty dollars to house one person in California prison annually. Right,
think about that number, right, that's that's double. Is like
like I think a tuition for undergraduate you know, person
going to USC.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
So it's like you know when you think about college, right.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Right, you think about we don't have the funds for that,
Yes you do.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
If you actually would save money, right, it would.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
It would.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
And the stat for us is that our data shows
that we and helped save the state of California about
twenty four million dollars so far. So and doing this work,
and I know we have a lot of opportunity to
scale up and grow and it's starting other states of
utilize incarcerating people to fight wildfires, and we want to
be able to figure out ways to you know, go

(25:41):
to other states eventually.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
And make sure they get paid more too. Absolutely, make
sure they get paid for the work that they're doing.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Well.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Thank you so much again, I appreciate you for joining
me today.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Thank you for having me. Appreciate you