September 11, 2025 • 40 mins
Shaka Senghor: Forgiveness, Breaking Free From Anger, & Confronting Childhood Trauma + More
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Gosh, what's upby Budy Angela.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Ye, I'm here with my guy main Ou, and of
course New York Times best selling author Shaka Sangar is
here with us. You have a new book, How to
Be Free. So congratulations on that, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Thank you. I'm super excited. Three and ten years is crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
That is amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
By the way, on your list of goals of things
that you wanted to accomplish, you have definitely been checking
those things off the list.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just one of the things.
One of my core practices is like writing down what
I want to manifest in my life and then executing
against what I write down.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
All right, so this book is a proven guide to
escaping life's hidden prisons. And I saw, first of all,
I want to say this, you did Joe Rogan's podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I wanted how.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Was that for you?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It was actually great. It was Joe is really curious
and he creates space for like real storytelling, the real conversations,
And it was like one of the most relaxed experience
as I had. I thought going in in to be
a little more intense, but literally he was like super
chill and we vibed for like three hours, you know.
So that was amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Because I remember you were doing it.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So I searched like to see and I saw that
there were some people that.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Of course, there was some backlash because I think.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
About different audiences, right, hearing your story for the first time,
because I feel like we know from when Oprah had
you on, We've heard from writing My Wrongs, the book
that you did a few years ago where you tell
your story, and I feel like, you know, Joe Rogan's
fans may not have all been privy to hearing that
and knowing about your experience and being familiar. I saw
(01:38):
some people saying it was amazing, But then there's always
this type of judgment that can come to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I mean, you know the people in the comment section,
you know, it's kind of like I think I wrote
this new book for them because they're trapped in their
own hidden prisons of being haters and judgmental judgment. Right,
So the comments section, I was just just told my
wife and my sons they have to comment sec that
all the time. While but you know, the way do
I look at it is like anytime that people are
(02:04):
coming at me, I always think about what is their
real hurt, like, what's behind it?
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Why would they be coming at somebody like you.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I mean, I think I think a lot of them.
People get stuck in my old story. Right. So I
went to prison for nineteen years, seven years of solitary confinement,
and over the last fifteen years, I've had an incredible
amount of success. And so people don't think that when
you've done made a poor decision, that you're actually deserving
of any type of success, right, And so I don't
mean to.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Cut you off. So I'm feeling this, right, So I
always say, because I did.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Prison time myself, I did ten years, four year solitary confinement,
I feel like the way you start doesn't determine how
you finished.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I want to talk that talk, right, Yeah, So this
is this.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
The same thing we were talking about.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Absolutely absolutely, But I think people want us to be
stuck there because they're really stuck in their own kind
of hitting press through that I.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Go through that.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
I go through that all the time with people with
guys caught up in things that I may have done
and things that I may have been.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Involved in years ago. When they caught up, they're so
caught up in it that they think that that's me.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean you know, when you
when you think about people, especially people that don't know you, right,
and like, you know, we get we have an opportunity.
Either we give people agency and access to our lives
or we deny them entry. And so when I know
that people are kind of stuck in that old story,
it's really more reflection of them than it is me,
because I've moved on with my life, you know what
I'm saying. And like when I left, when I left
(03:32):
physical prison, it was like I was already free, like mentally,
you know what I mean. And so when I see
those kind of moments where people are trapped, I'm like,
that's their own narrative. That's why I say this book
really yeah, And that's why I say this book is
really for people like that. It's like it gives them
an opportunity to really look into their lives and say, Okay, well,
what's what's holding me back to where I want to
hold another human being I don't even know back, you
(03:55):
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Find fault, yeah in them?
Speaker 5 (03:59):
And then I always find that the people that do
that the most are not in like the worst situations.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Well that's their own directed.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I do find that when people like come at you
like that, it's because a lot of times that's like
a self reflection on things about themselves that they're unhappy with.
Or sometimes I think when people are in that space,
they don't want anyone else to be thriving, you know,
or see that in other people. I when I was
reading this book and then I watched the Young Thug
(04:27):
interview that he did with Big Bank, right, this is
all happening like around the same time, because I got
my copy of the book and then that interview dropped,
and I was thinking about Young Thug talking about his
early life and what shaped him into who he is today,
and like a lot of experiences that he had to have,
you know, as far as people close to him getting killed,
(04:48):
and you talk about your brother's murder in this book,
you know as well, and the emotions that you went
through after that, And I was just thinking there was
a lot of things we didn't know about him, and
maybe things that he has not yet even figured out
how he could heal from those things too. And I
saw that in a lot of times, we talk to
(05:10):
people and we don't know their stories, like what got
them to where they are right now to make these
types of decisions.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, it's one of the reasons that I continue to
write and concede to share stories because I think that
part is important. You know, we look at these artists
and we formulate an opinion based on their art, not
based on their real lives, and they're partially responsible for
that as well, because what you communicate to the world
can oftentimes dictate how people perceive you or grow to
(05:37):
to know who you are. And especially you know, you
think about young Thug and all the things that's going
on with these different allegations, the leaks from the phone
and what I you know, what I talk to young
people would always say is just like you know, you
have to own your own narrative, otherwise the world will
try to tell you who you are. And what I've
realized is that the reasons so many don't own their
own narrative because they don't even recognize the way that
(05:59):
they hitting prisons show up in their lives like trauma.
So when I was writing about my brother, my brother
was murdered in twenty twenty one, I come home. You know,
I'm the one of the resourceful ones in the family,
I'm coming being responsible son make this path as easy
as possible for my step mom, for my dad. And
I was sitting there and I was watching my mother
go through this grieving process, and I started feeling this
(06:22):
overwhelming sense of guilt, and so I couldn't even fully
grieve for my brother because what I realized in that moment,
I made somebody else's mother feel like that. And so
that was my hit in prison was that I couldn't
really grievee And what I ended up doing is I
ended up writing a letter to the person responsible for
murdering my brother. And through that process of just exercising
(06:43):
that emotion, I started to kind of free myself up
and develop this deep sense of gratitude for the experience
I had with my brother. So that's how I kind
of navigated and that was the unlock for me, was
gratitude is how I navigated grief.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
And yeah, you know, people talk about frek guilt and
it's a lot because you wrote that letter, right, and
sometimes people are like, how could you forgive somebody who
did something like that? But you I listened to you
on Oprah and you talked about the forgiveness that you
received and a lot of times we want forgiveness from
people and reappreciate that, but then when it's time for
us to turn around and forgive somebody, that's a hard
(07:20):
thing to.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Do, absolutely, And I think one of the things is
when you say that you believe something, the universe is
definitely going to test that belief. And in the book,
one of the things that I talk about is I
received a letter from the guy who shot me. You know,
I got shot when I was seventeen years old. This
is three decades later. I get this letter, and my
(07:41):
initial reaction wasn't the thoughtful person that believes in redemption,
Like I was triggered back to that moment of like, oh,
this is the guy. And one of the things that
I didn't realize was that the thing that had me
really angry was that I had never saw this guy's face.
Like our exchange was a quick little word exchange, and
you know, he shot shot multiple times, hit me three times.
(08:02):
So for all these years, I subconsciously had been carrying
this kind of mystery person around, like I kind of
knew the name, I knew some affiliations, but I didn't
I never saw his face. And so when I got
the letter. He's in prison. Now he's been he's actually
been in prison. He was in prison like after he
shot me, he killed somebody, and so he ended up
(08:23):
in prison like right before I ended up in prison.
But we never was at the same prison. So when
I got the letter, I'm like, I'm really respecting in prison.
It don't take much for me to just be like,
I'm gonna put one thousand dollars on your book. Take
care of dude, right. And what I realized in that
moment was like, this is the universe saying what do
you really believe about second chances? What do you really
believe about forgiveness? And so I started actually to write
(08:46):
him a letter back. And then I decided to actually
write my mother, who I was in the process of
healing our relationship with, and I realized I didn't owe
him a letter. I accepted the letter of forgiveness, I
mean apology. I accept that. And for me, it's really
like forgiveness was for me. It wasn't really about him, right,
you know what I mean? And then so with my
(09:07):
mom that became more important. It was like, you know,
how am I healing this relationship with the woman who
gave birth to me and how do we grow together?
And what I learned from that is that forgiveness is
very complex, because I thought I had forgave my mother,
you know, and then what I realized I forgave her
with conditions. I forgive you, but I need you to
act this way.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right, you want her to change what she had done
that was hurtful to you. But when you forget somebody,
that doesn't mean they're going to be a different person
or the person that you want them to be.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, that I mean, they could be worse, they can
be better. I mean my mom is not the same,
you know, right what it's saying, right, But it's really
about like how do we shape it within ourselves? Right?
And that's the hidden part of it because sometimes we
think that, oh, I forgave you, but then you do
one thing that I dislike, and now I take fifteen
steps back to one question.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
The god that wrote you the letter that shot you,
he was apologetic.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, because what happened is he came across my book.
Another brother was reading one of my books in there,
and he started reading the book and he was like, oh,
I exactly know this story. I'm the guy who poured
that trigger. I never knew. I wouldn't even have wrote
his name even if I did, But I never knew
the guy. I just talked about how that shaped how
I thought about life. And so after I got shot,
(10:22):
I just started carrying a gun every day. And then,
you know, fourteen months later I shot somebody, right, And
so he got the book and he read it and he
was like, oh, I want to apologize to this guy,
you know, And I thought that was I thought it
was courateous of him, not only to be in a
state of maturity to think about how do I apologize
to somebody else, but like his safety could have potentially
(10:42):
been compromising for him to do that. I was like,
you know, I gotta respect that if nothing else.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, it's not doing anything for him. Yeah, to have
done that.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And your mom for seventeen years, she didn't come and
see you, Yeah, while you were locked up.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
What was her reason for that?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
And I hear a lot of times people feel like
when they go to prison that they're forgotten about. People
are moving on with their lives, and then when you
come home sometimes people feel like, well, I'm home now.
This person didn't look out for me that I don't
feel no responsibility to all the people who forgot about
me while I.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Was locked up.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, I mean I used to feel like that, you
know that the early part of my incarceration, I was
very angry at my family. I was very disappointed. I
felt abandoned by my friends. You know, It's one of
the things I tell the young guys when they're out
on the streets, like it's all good until the handcuffs
go on, and I can guarantee you within sixty eight
almost everybody's gone, right, and you may be lucky to
have a grandma or on or you know, pops like
(11:40):
my dad kind of rolled out the whole nineteen years.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Man had a lot of women.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
You're lucky, Yeah about anybody. Fortunately, I was very fortunate.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
But that's different from like the guys you grew up
on the back right, think of your family. Yeah, I
had people step in that you wouldn't even thought they
would have been the ones. But the people who you
think will be there, they're the first ones to slide off,
you know. And so with my mom when she finally
did come to see me, some of them was just
like very logistical. I was a lot of times I
(12:13):
was locked far away you know, Yeah, She's like, I
don't drive on the highway by myself, and you know,
so it was all those things. But for me, I
was like, I don't I didn't want to come home.
Like I talk about in the book, is that I was.
I was incarcerated before I ever went to prison, because mentally,
I have brought into this idea that my life can
(12:33):
only have two outcomes. You're going to be dead in
jail before your twenty ones, right, And so I lived
based on that narrative. But I was free way before
I got I was free before I even knew if
I was ever getting out of prison, because I had
unlocked something in my mind that was like, no matter
what the circumstances are, here's the kind of man I'm
gonna be. Here's the kind of person that I'm gonna
be even within this environment, whether I get out or not.
(12:56):
And so part of that was I had to free
myself from this anger, you know, Like you know, people
see my story Noine, it's like, oh, this must have
been like a model prisoner. I'm like, I was wilding
it at the first eight years. I'm like thirty six
missconducts new case. Seven years in solitary confinement. But when
I got to that place where I was like, you know,
(13:17):
I want to produce different outcomes anger, giving up that
anger was one of them. And in order to give
that up, I had to look at who am I
all angry at? You know?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
How did you do that?
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Because I say things like not giving the fuck is freedom?
Meaning caring less of what people think? Are you not
worrying about the opinions of others?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
That's freedom?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Right?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
Living your ultimate you know who you are, no matter
what that looks like, no matter what that looks like
to other people, that's freedom.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
So how did you get away from the anger?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yeah? For me, it was like recognizing. So I had
this idea that I was like, you know, the kid
who wasn't angry, right, because all my friends' minds be like, oh,
you're so mannable, you're so thoughtful, but they didn't never
saw the other side, you know what I'm saying. And
so I had kind of bought into the idea that
I only get active when somebody has done something offensive, right,
(14:17):
But in reality I realized that I had heard a
lot of people you know what I mean, and that
I was really this angry kid and what happened was
I started journaling, and it's what I call active journaling, right,
And I really talk about it in the book because
sometimes people are like, oh, you just write a thing down.
It's like, no, you write it down so you could
be clear about it. But then what are the action
steps you're going to take to heal from it? And
(14:39):
for me, I would write when I was in solitary,
whenever I would like find myself like really really angry,
like my neighbor blew the power out one time. I'm
literally writing my journal like, yo, when I get out,
I'm a shank doog blah blah, you know what I mean.
But then I would go back and read it because
that was the active part, Like don't just write it,
but go back and read it when you're not angry.
And I was reading one day and I was like,
(15:01):
this sounds like a mad man. This is not how
I see myself, but this is really who I've become, right,
And so I knew like if I wanted to be
a different person, I had to heal that person, and
I had to get down to the roots of like,
you know who I thought I was, but to who
I actually was, and that was a game change, you
know what I mean, And so I started. I still
(15:21):
have all my journals from prison. I still really helps you. Yeah,
going back and reading absolutely like.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
You know, in this book you will also talk about
another incident that really shaped you as a kid. The
neighbor of c. M. Yeah, and I know certain names.
You know you're not going to give absolutely, Yeah, but
this was a neighbor. You guys would go over there,
all the kids watched the Kung fu flicks, you know,
have a good time. This particular time, you guys were
(15:56):
They said, some of the kids can come and stay
the night, and he attempted to molest you.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And that was something that you did not tell your parents.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And it's you know, I think that that is a
hard thing because you feel like, did I do something wrong?
And that happens right, And you also feel like I've
heard children say this too. They don't want to endanger
their parents. Also, by then the parents go over there,
they get into a fight.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Who knows what can happen.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I've heard people say that things have happened and that's
why they didn't tell their parents. But then you went
on to attempt to break into his home and that
was kind of your revenge, but nobody knew what had
happened to you, and it took you a long time
to even be able to reveal that. But we don't
(16:46):
know sometimes, like what children are dealing with and going through.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Yeah. Absolutely, It's one of the reasons that I'm super
sensitive when it comes to mentoring young people. And you know,
you see these kids who have been labeled as acting out,
and because of my own experiences, I know that none
of these things are without cause. And so in the
case of Cem, you know, this was a trusted family friend,
and you know, this guy attempted to molest me, and
(17:12):
you know, as a result of that, I literally broke
into his house and like in my mind, I'm like,
we're gonna steal all this stuff, We're gonna destroy it.
And I ended up getting caught. And when I got caught,
you know, my parents was like, we didn't raise you
like this, and why would you do this? And so
they were really upset. But the thing is they had
never created space for us to tell the full truth.
And so as a kid, you have something that violation
(17:34):
of trust and you internalize that, and it's one of
the things like when I talk about why I wrote
this book. I've met so many people who have internalized
the behaviors of others, whether it's childhood trauma, whether it's assault,
whether it's violence, you take on that identity. That's where
negative self taught comes from. And so when my parents,
like they punished me for the behavior, I internalized that
(17:58):
even more of like, well, maybe I did something wrong,
but maybe it was my fault. And so for years
I was angry with them, and you know, and there
was a shame attached to that. Right I had got
arrested in front of our whole block, you know, yeah,
Like they literally was like, what is you doing? Yeah,
so now you got that embarrassment, and it's one of
(18:19):
the things that you know, for me, when I got
to a space where I talked to my parents, this
was like, I mean, this wasn't that long. It's like
three years ago. I was like fifty years old when
I called my dad and I was like, hey, I
just want to talk to you about something that I
realized I was still carrying this anger about that. They
never understood my wife and they never even questioned it.
And I'm like, if you know your kid to be good,
(18:41):
otherwise and they do something that's so outside of who
you know them to be, Like, you got to be
patient and interrogate that, you know what I mean, because
otherwise it kind of imprisons them and it's shame. And
that's what happened to me. But when I talked to
my parents, it was amazing, you know, that they were
both present and willing to go on that journey, and
(19:02):
especially like with my dad, like that has to be
hard as a father's like you're trusting your child in
the care of another man who you respect, right, and
then this guy attempts to take advantage of your child.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You know, I just thank god that you were able
to get out of that situation.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I mean I attribute that to like my siblings,
like being being having older siblings, you kind of become
a little bit more savvy about life than if you're
trying to figure it out on your own, you know.
And so anytime I felt like I was in some
type of danger, I had kind of examples from my
siblings and how to move, yeah, how to move Yeah.
But I think about all the kids who probably didn't.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
That didn't a lot. It's a lot, a lot, it's
a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
I'm working on a book, and I've been working on
this book for a while.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
It's almost ready.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
I've been talking about it for a while now, and
it kind of reminds me of what you what you
got going on and what you're doing. The name of
my book is called All the Freedom Right, and it's
to me, it's it's like my philosophy in my in
my in my uh my game, and how I feel
(20:06):
about what it takes to to stay out of prison.
So it's like for people that it's either just got
out of jail or it's about to write. So you know,
they got all those pre release programs and stuff like that.
You know, here's a book, not big, but just something
that could you know, you read a chapter day or
something like that, like Delhi Meditations or something like that,
and just to help give you some game on how
to stay you know, mentally, you know, prepared for all
(20:31):
of the things that you gotta deal with. You know,
I like what you did you're doing because that's something
that I don't think I included that in the book, right,
about the mental prisons, about some of the things that
kind of hold us back.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Because you can.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Be free physically but yet still trapped in this in
this this, this this world where you just locked in.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Absolutely, Yeah, that's That's one of the things. When I
wrote this book, I was super intentional about making it
accessible to people who have never been incarcerated. And actually
that's more of my audience because I've worked in tech,
you know, I've been an investor in tech, I've worked
in entertainment, I produced, I've done all types of stuff.
And I've seen people out here who have never stepped
(21:15):
foot in the jail that are way more incarcerated, Like
I mean, imposter syndrome, doubt. What is that? Yeah, that's
when you're showing up in the space and you're not
being your authentic self.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
And you feel like you don't belong there.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
And how about the guy that continuously wants to be
something that you know he's not.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
That is it is aspect.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Is when you really do deserve to be somewhere and
you feel like you don't. Absolutely, you know, you feel
like even though you can have all of the accolades
and the knowledge, and you go in a room and
you know, it's interesting to me because even your friendship
with and you talk about this, and Ben Harwitz called
in when you were on with Oprah.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
That's my guy.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, and even of how you guys met, but it
was you know, I even was like, man, when Oprah
introduced you and then you guys were going to have
dinner and they were like, oh, this guy did this,
let's not have him at the house.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I felt like, I don't know, it bothered me, you
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I know that'shit brother, and then and that things have
come around, and it's so interesting to me to see
how people can have this perception of somebody who they'll
be like, well, he murdered someone, he went to jail
to prison for nineteen years.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I don't know if we should have them.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I mean, that's not unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Right, I understand that, and it's not unreasonable.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
But from our culture, we're like, oh, that's you know
what I mean, because we have we have proximity to
it quite often, right, And there's different when you don't
have proximity to it and you're coming from Because I
think about this all the time, like when you come
from a different space and don't have proximity to someone
like me, I can imagine it's not the easiest thing
to be like come from my home.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Right, Donald Trunk has done some awful things and been
convicted of them, and he's the president.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
You know what I'm saying. And I but I.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Will say when I said that, I also was just
thinking about it in the context of I thought about
Michael Rubin, right, and how he didn't understand like how
somebody could be falsely imprisoned until Meek Miles situation and
seeing how probation can really just keep you like locked
(23:34):
in forever psychl Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
It's coming from such a such a such a.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Place of privilege, and that's yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Totally oblivious to this type of lifestyle in the world
for us that we had some body right.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
When she said when she said, uh, he did nine
years in solitary, I said, he was getting Busyand.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Do you feel like now it's been a lot more
people like because I do feel like this whole movement now,
you know, we see so many different organizations that are
talking about like the prison system, and there's been a
lot more stories of people who have been unfairly targeted.
When you see the disparities between who's you know, getting representation,
(24:27):
who's getting the longer sentences, who's going to prison, And
it's something that has been a lot more awareness about it.
Do you feel like now since when you first came home,
it's been a lot more like acceptance and also people
just feeling like, Wow, that's your story.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
We need to do something together. I feel like it
used to be like that.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
No.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I mean we've done a lot of work, you know,
like like outside of the work that I've done more recently,
which has been more focused on business entrepreneurship, early part
of my career was literally working on changing policies, including
helping meet meals get out. So I work with fifty
I work with Reform Alliance, Jessica Van those like we
was in the trenches. We were like, we're gonna cut
(25:06):
the prison system and half by fifty percent. And so
that work, that storytelling that we did, we really brought
people proximate to like what does transformation look like? And
so you think about Topeka, you think about Wilow, you
think about those of us who've actually put ourselves out
in the most vulnerable way. Right, I think, out of everybody,
I probably had a more serious case. So I'm constantly
(25:26):
getting that, getting that scrutiny. But It's the thing like
even when even when I think about, even though this
is not what this book is about, what I realized
that we had to help people break through their own
interpretation of who they think is in prison, right, you know,
because it's easy to just have those judgments. But then
you started to meet chef Jeff and you realize this guy,
(25:47):
he's an executive chef, but he was also incarcerated and
taught himself how to cook in the kitchen. And so
being able to share those stories, like that's what really
kind of shifted the narrative. And now you know, but
there's a there's a downside to that too, because not
everybody who comes out of prison is going to be
Shocker or Wallow or Mano or to peak it right,
because you gotta you have to separate our talent from
(26:08):
our actual background, you know what I mean. Like I'm
actually really talented while I'm on book three, not because
I was in prison, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
So doesn't get.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Right, Yeah, Like like to Peaka's really talented, she just
happened to have been in prison. Wilo is really talented.
It just happened to be in prison. And so we
have to really separate that part because everybody think the
next person coming out is going to be the next
so and so. And it's like, I've been writing for
twenty five years. You know, I wrote my first journal
twenty five years ago when I was transforming my life.
(26:39):
So all of this this is like the hard earned wisdom.
This is like, this isn't like recent. This is like, hey,
for twenty five years, I've been on this journey. Here's
what i learned from prison. Here's what I've learned from entrepreneurship,
Here's what I learned from investing, and here's what I've
learned in corporate And everybody has a hidden prison, but
every prison has a right.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
You know, this writing. I think the talent that you
have with that.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Now, there's one part of the book where you talk
about writing a letter to the warden, which I was like,
you would even think to do such a thing, but
you wanted to see if you could get out of solitary.
But you also wanted to say, look, I did everything
I said I was going to do, and those were
the bad things, you know. But now I'm saying, instead
of the negative things that I want to do, I
(27:25):
want you to believe that I'm going to be able
to do.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
These positive things.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
He said, you said, if truth is what matters most
in our dialogue, I encourage you to reflect on what
I'm about to propose should do. On the off chance
allow me to re enter general population. I give you
my word that for the remainder of my incarceration, I
will dedicate myself solely to nurturing my writing talent and
mentoring the.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Young guys on the yard.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Gifts I discovered in this place and wish to share
with prisoners and then the world.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
That were absolutely it was the only kind of war.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
It was the only time that because when I was reading,
I said, they're.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Not letting that word.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
But here's the thing. I was reading all this philosophy right,
and I was like, okay, if the truth is what matter,
Like I told you when I came to prison, I'm
never following the rules. Here's the proof of that. I
got thirty five minutes conducts. Only things that matter? Is
am I a man of my word? Clearly I'm a
man of my words. If you believe me in the negative,
can you believe me in a postive? And you should
(28:21):
be able.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
To yeah to myself. This philosophical shit really was.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Well, he advocated for me and I had you had
nine in there already.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, so at that time I had I had been
in solitary about two and a half and I had
been in prison about ten and a half and then
but it still took some time for me to get out.
But he advocated for me for the next couple of years.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah. Yeah, And then I got out of I was
a man of my word. I literally focused on writing.
I wrote. I wrote a total of six books before
I got out of prison. I started off writing fiction
and I mentored a young young man on the block.
Like a lot of those guys, they even look up
to me to this day. And I go back and sat,
I was, I was like, you Records Island yesterday, I
could I kicked the project. Yeah, we kicked the book
(29:06):
to off.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
And you're donating books for the prisons.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
So we've donated books to thirteen hundred prisons, which comes
around to almost a million people who are incarcerated. And
so they got the book before the rest of the
world because their life is a metaphor. And I wanted
to make sure that people are incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, you better signed the publishing company. But even look,
even when Shaka came home and you know, had the book,
he had to push those books himself on the streets.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah. I was really out the trunk with us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I started off hustling books all around Detroit parks, gentlemen clubs,
you name it. I was there and eventually, yeah, yeah,
I used to.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Be there every Saturday starlet party.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
They sim Detroit is a whole back I'm chop to
slangy books and yeah, yeah, but that was the path.
And eventually one of those books made it to Oprah,
and then that was a game changer.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
You never know what can happen. Boy, let me tell you.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
That's all. You got to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Just like Shaka said, He'll set down the intention and
you just got to finish it.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, because I wrote, I literally wrote that down, so
all the things I live now, because I really want
people to understand this about what makes this book so
amazing to me is that I'm not just pulling stories
from out of the thin air and saying, hey, you
see what Lebron did, you can do it too. I
don't know what that's like. I'm not a forty year
old hooper with a twenty year history. Right. What I
(30:38):
do know is that the things that I said I
was going to do when I got out, I wrote
those things down. I practice mindfulness. I practiced meditation, and
I practiced it in a way that requires a lot
of activation. Like you can't just write something down and
forget it. Right, I'm in solitary. I write my first book.
I asked a guy's on the cell block. You want
to read this book? A guy was like, Yo, this
(30:59):
ain't Oprah.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I have that right here.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yes, I think that is so ironic. You said, does
anyone to read this book? I just wrote someone down
to tear? Responded back, don't nobody want to read that shit?
This ain't Oprah? And look at that next thing. You know,
you said, I'm gonna write something worthy of Oprah herself
taking the time out to read it.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Who would have ever thunk it?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah? I mean I was in solitary, so I couldn't
get active. So I'm like, okay, what can I do?
And I'm like, okay, well, actually this guy just gave
me a goal, Like I want to write. I don't
want to just be a good writer for someone's been
in prison. I want to be one of the best
in the world. And what's the better measurement is if
over read it, you rise to that level. And so
now she's on book number three, which to tell you
(31:38):
a lot about I got Joe Rogan over here and
Oprah over here. So wow, I got Pee Aelou.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Now listen, you talk about the keys to releasing anger, right,
write down your anger, identify primary emotion, create a counter mantra,
and then meditate to release anger. So no, just thinking
about working through that, because what I love is at
the end of each chapter you are giving people, you know, just.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Really like the tools to dig deeper. You call it
digging deeper.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Absolutely, yeah. And what I love about the Digging Deeper
chapters that you notice there's like a little door at
the top. And the door is because I wanted people
to know that you can access this anytime, you can
come in and out, because that's life, right. Sometime you're
going to get it right, and sometimes you're going to
take a little step back, and it's like, once you
take that step back, just know that you can go
back to these tools and it'll help release you from
(32:28):
that that hit in prison.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Now Another thing that was really impactful in your life
was marriage. And see Lizy here too. You didn't change
her name in the book. You didn't have to.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Now.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
One thing you were gifted was mirrors, right, and the
elder who gifted the mirror said to you, and marriage,
you become a mirror to your partner. What you reflect
is what you will receive in return. If you reflect love,
patients are understanding, you will get that back. But if
you reflect anger, resentment, or indifference, that too will come
back to you. A happy marriage is built not just
on love, but on the reflections you too to create
(33:00):
every day. And you talk about love being an active choice.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's marital love, but it's also self
love and it's also relational love and friendship and all
those things are like really the primary drivers in life.
To me personally, it's like how much shown up in love?
How much shwn up in love with my wife, how
much swn up in love as a father, how much
shwn up in love as a friend. And it all
comes back to self love because that's what eradicates self doubt,
(33:27):
negative self talk, And when you're in relation with anybody,
like you're only going to get out of it what
you put into it right, And it doesn't mean it's
like perfect. Like sometimes that mirror is dirty and dusty
and strange stuff and you gotta clean it off and
you got to get back to like, Okay, why don't
we show up in each other's life in the first place?
And I'm fortunate and lucky to have a brilliant, beautiful
wife and that that makes me happy. It's like dope, man.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I just am blown away by all the work that
you've been doing every single you know, I've read three
of your books at this point.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah, you know, the letters to your sons.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, also, which was amazing for you for us to
be able to read, you know. May now you have
a son, you have a daughter. Do you ever write,
like when is the last time you've written anything? Because
I do think that writing is a really purposeful different
type of.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Practice to them. Yeah, no, never other than textas it's.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Not crazy that text messages makes it like so when's
the last time somebody wrote you something like physically?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
But it's all writing though, like I mean, like even
I wrote, I wrote a great percentage of this book,
like literally in my notes, like I'll be up late
at night or tak Yeah, and I'll have like a
thought of like, you know, story, I'm just put it
in my notes and like and I you know, I
try to encourage the young people I mentor about the craft,
right because there is the craft of writing. Then that's storytelling.
(34:48):
But I think all of it, all of it matters,
you know. That's that's I outline that in the book. Like,
use whatever tools you have at your disposal to get
those stories out.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
So you can talk toil.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, I do that too, I do it all. I'll
be like no because you know, sometimes you move in
life is happening and you don't want to miss the
energy at that moment. So get a chance to share
all these truths in a variety of ways.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
What are some of the things that have happened since
you've been writing, even from you know, when you first
came home and writing your wrongs came out. But what
are some things that people have said to you in
ways that you've affected their lives, that have touched on
you know.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
What's really amazing and truly the greatest honor that I've
ever received is the consistency of feedback from people who
read my work. You know, every day, like literally every
day for probably the last ten years, I get a message,
text message, DM, I get something from somebody saying, hey,
this really helped me. And you know, when I was
writing this book, I have like my friends, so I'm like, yo,
(35:45):
can you read this for me? Can you just let
me know? Is it resonating? And that hidden prison piece
has been really opening people up. And I mean I've
got friends from all walks of life who are like, hey,
I was trying to work through something deep in my
life and like joy that's been the brothers in my life.
They've been like on fire about that chapter because they're like,
(36:08):
we don't even talk about how do we as men
access joy? You know. And so that that consistent feedback
has been credit's been over ten years. I always get
something positive from all of my different writers, even sometimes
stuff I've written just online, you know, And so's the
that's the greatest, you know, part of all of this
journey is like I'm a writer's writer, and so to
(36:29):
have people you know, move by my words that that
means everything to me.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
All right, well, I love it, and you know, lastly,
I want to end with this part. You said the
one thing I right for used to do was get
stuck in a loop of negative negativity. The moment a negative,
the service, I counted it with positive affirmations. These are
like real things you know that we can do, you said.
I meditated on gratitude, grounding myself and the blessings I
already had, rather than the challenges I faced. It's all
(36:54):
about a commitment to shifting my mindset. It wasn't just
about pushing through. It was about creating a found of
self belief that allowed me to see possibilities instead of
obstacles and to keep moving forward with hope and purpose.
And I think that's impactful. There's things that I still
struggle with myself to these days. I think everybody struggles
with forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah, would would you think that's like one of your
bigger hitting prisons that forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I think that it's hard to say.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
There's people that have been like so awful that I
just never even want to deal with them and forget
that they exist.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And so I'm not a vengeful person.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I'm more of a you don't exist to me at
all anymore type of person.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
But if you still entertain the pain that they cause,
they do exist to you, and so real forgiveness is
about how do you release that?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So we're not going to sit down and be cool
like you said, we don't got to kick it.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
But but if you.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Release it, you're having a whole different free experience.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
It's like pretending it didn't exist releasing it.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
But it's not pretending because if you pretend they always
come back, they always don't come back. It's really is
deciding that, hey, you can no longer occupy this space
in my life and that I'm going to walk out
of this door to the freest version of myself because
I've given up all anger, animosity, attachment to this old
(38:14):
thing that no longer says.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
You know what I tell people when it's like a situation,
because you know, sometimes your friends will have a tendency
to like send you stuff about a person like you're like,
oh my god, I cannot stand this person. I don't
even want to think about it, but they'll send you
like you see this, Oh they said this, they said that,
And I'm like, just don't even mention that person to me,
like just erasing like eternal you've seen eternal Sunshinel, the
(38:36):
spotless mind, is it like erasing it out of my brain.
That helped me a lot.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, I mean that's that's that's, that's part of what
that's part of what giving it up is. Right as
you stop entertaining the old story, but you also have
to like create real boundaries with the people in your
life who can continue to bring that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I don't even that, don't mention their name, it doesn't exist.
I moved on.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
You know, let's keep going, but definitely practices in here that,
like you said, this doesn't have to be just for
people who were justice impacted, but also for somebody like
myself who is trying to get out of my own free.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, your mind, man, two shackles and athletes, executives, entrepreneurs.
Everyday people are just trying to live free persons themselves.
That's really who this book is.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
And I'm really hoping he's going to help me, know.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Praying for the first step were you were already you
already started the first step by reading it, and now
you get a.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Chance to share. Got another copy, you can have this
one all right? Well, Shaka, thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I really appreciate you and I know you have respect
all over on tour so people can check you out.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Right well up only Detroit, I'm coming, Atlanta, all over,
l A, you name it, I'm there. So I'm super excited.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I got to pull up somewhere because.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Come full of the I know I'm not.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Gonna I want it to come, but I can't because
I'll be traveling when you're in Detroit.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
But we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
We're gonna figure it out, please, And we're.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Gonna relaunch probably at the top of the year too,
So we're going in like, this work is so important
to me and I really want as many people in
the world to have access to it as possible. So
I'm gonna do a second tour just to make sure
that I'm touching the people and really sharing these truths
in this book.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
So all right, come back and see us.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Let's see what we already know, what type of meditation
Mano has been doing.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Stop it's way up
Gosh, what's upby Budy Angela.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Ye, I'm here with my guy main Ou, and of
course New York Times best selling author Shaka Sangar is
here with us. You have a new book, How to
Be Free. So congratulations on that, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Thank you. I'm super excited. Three and ten years is crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
That is amazing.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
By the way, on your list of goals of things
that you wanted to accomplish, you have definitely been checking
those things off the list.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just one of the things.
One of my core practices is like writing down what
I want to manifest in my life and then executing
against what I write down.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
All right, so this book is a proven guide to
escaping life's hidden prisons. And I saw, first of all,
I want to say this, you did Joe Rogan's podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I wanted how.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Was that for you?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It was actually great. It was Joe is really curious
and he creates space for like real storytelling, the real conversations,
And it was like one of the most relaxed experience
as I had. I thought going in in to be
a little more intense, but literally he was like super
chill and we vibed for like three hours, you know.
So that was amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Because I remember you were doing it.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So I searched like to see and I saw that
there were some people that.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Of course, there was some backlash because I think.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
About different audiences, right, hearing your story for the first time,
because I feel like we know from when Oprah had
you on, We've heard from writing My Wrongs, the book
that you did a few years ago where you tell
your story, and I feel like, you know, Joe Rogan's
fans may not have all been privy to hearing that
and knowing about your experience and being familiar. I saw
(01:38):
some people saying it was amazing, But then there's always
this type of judgment that can come to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I mean, you know the people in the comment section,
you know, it's kind of like I think I wrote
this new book for them because they're trapped in their
own hidden prisons of being haters and judgmental judgment. Right,
So the comments section, I was just just told my
wife and my sons they have to comment sec that
all the time. While but you know, the way do
I look at it is like anytime that people are
(02:04):
coming at me, I always think about what is their
real hurt, like, what's behind it?
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Why would they be coming at somebody like you.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I mean, I think I think a lot of them.
People get stuck in my old story. Right. So I
went to prison for nineteen years, seven years of solitary confinement,
and over the last fifteen years, I've had an incredible
amount of success. And so people don't think that when
you've done made a poor decision, that you're actually deserving
of any type of success, right, And so I don't
mean to.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Cut you off. So I'm feeling this, right, So I
always say, because I did.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Prison time myself, I did ten years, four year solitary confinement,
I feel like the way you start doesn't determine how
you finished.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I want to talk that talk, right, Yeah, So this
is this.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
The same thing we were talking about.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Absolutely absolutely, But I think people want us to be
stuck there because they're really stuck in their own kind
of hitting press through that I.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Go through that.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
I go through that all the time with people with
guys caught up in things that I may have done
and things that I may have been.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Involved in years ago. When they caught up, they're so
caught up in it that they think that that's me.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean you know, when you
when you think about people, especially people that don't know you, right,
and like, you know, we get we have an opportunity.
Either we give people agency and access to our lives
or we deny them entry. And so when I know
that people are kind of stuck in that old story,
it's really more reflection of them than it is me,
because I've moved on with my life, you know what
I'm saying. And like when I left, when I left
(03:32):
physical prison, it was like I was already free, like mentally,
you know what I mean. And so when I see
those kind of moments where people are trapped, I'm like,
that's their own narrative. That's why I say this book
really yeah, And that's why I say this book is
really for people like that. It's like it gives them
an opportunity to really look into their lives and say, Okay, well,
what's what's holding me back to where I want to
hold another human being I don't even know back, you
(03:55):
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Find fault, yeah in them?
Speaker 5 (03:59):
And then I always find that the people that do
that the most are not in like the worst situations.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Well that's their own directed.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I do find that when people like come at you
like that, it's because a lot of times that's like
a self reflection on things about themselves that they're unhappy with.
Or sometimes I think when people are in that space,
they don't want anyone else to be thriving, you know,
or see that in other people. I when I was
reading this book and then I watched the Young Thug
(04:27):
interview that he did with Big Bank, right, this is
all happening like around the same time, because I got
my copy of the book and then that interview dropped,
and I was thinking about Young Thug talking about his
early life and what shaped him into who he is today,
and like a lot of experiences that he had to have,
you know, as far as people close to him getting killed,
(04:48):
and you talk about your brother's murder in this book,
you know as well, and the emotions that you went
through after that, And I was just thinking there was
a lot of things we didn't know about him, and
maybe things that he has not yet even figured out
how he could heal from those things too. And I
saw that in a lot of times, we talk to
(05:10):
people and we don't know their stories, like what got
them to where they are right now to make these
types of decisions.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, it's one of the reasons that I continue to
write and concede to share stories because I think that
part is important. You know, we look at these artists
and we formulate an opinion based on their art, not
based on their real lives, and they're partially responsible for
that as well, because what you communicate to the world
can oftentimes dictate how people perceive you or grow to
(05:37):
to know who you are. And especially you know, you
think about young Thug and all the things that's going
on with these different allegations, the leaks from the phone
and what I you know, what I talk to young
people would always say is just like you know, you
have to own your own narrative, otherwise the world will
try to tell you who you are. And what I've
realized is that the reasons so many don't own their
own narrative because they don't even recognize the way that
(05:59):
they hitting prisons show up in their lives like trauma.
So when I was writing about my brother, my brother
was murdered in twenty twenty one, I come home. You know,
I'm the one of the resourceful ones in the family,
I'm coming being responsible son make this path as easy
as possible for my step mom, for my dad. And
I was sitting there and I was watching my mother
go through this grieving process, and I started feeling this
(06:22):
overwhelming sense of guilt, and so I couldn't even fully
grieve for my brother because what I realized in that moment,
I made somebody else's mother feel like that. And so
that was my hit in prison was that I couldn't
really grievee And what I ended up doing is I
ended up writing a letter to the person responsible for
murdering my brother. And through that process of just exercising
(06:43):
that emotion, I started to kind of free myself up
and develop this deep sense of gratitude for the experience
I had with my brother. So that's how I kind
of navigated and that was the unlock for me, was
gratitude is how I navigated grief.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
And yeah, you know, people talk about frek guilt and
it's a lot because you wrote that letter, right, and
sometimes people are like, how could you forgive somebody who
did something like that? But you I listened to you
on Oprah and you talked about the forgiveness that you
received and a lot of times we want forgiveness from
people and reappreciate that, but then when it's time for
us to turn around and forgive somebody, that's a hard
(07:20):
thing to.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Do, absolutely, And I think one of the things is
when you say that you believe something, the universe is
definitely going to test that belief. And in the book,
one of the things that I talk about is I
received a letter from the guy who shot me. You know,
I got shot when I was seventeen years old. This
is three decades later. I get this letter, and my
(07:41):
initial reaction wasn't the thoughtful person that believes in redemption,
Like I was triggered back to that moment of like, oh,
this is the guy. And one of the things that
I didn't realize was that the thing that had me
really angry was that I had never saw this guy's face.
Like our exchange was a quick little word exchange, and
you know, he shot shot multiple times, hit me three times.
(08:02):
So for all these years, I subconsciously had been carrying
this kind of mystery person around, like I kind of
knew the name, I knew some affiliations, but I didn't
I never saw his face. And so when I got
the letter. He's in prison. Now he's been he's actually
been in prison. He was in prison like after he
shot me, he killed somebody, and so he ended up
(08:23):
in prison like right before I ended up in prison.
But we never was at the same prison. So when
I got the letter, I'm like, I'm really respecting in prison.
It don't take much for me to just be like,
I'm gonna put one thousand dollars on your book. Take
care of dude, right. And what I realized in that
moment was like, this is the universe saying what do
you really believe about second chances? What do you really
believe about forgiveness? And so I started actually to write
(08:46):
him a letter back. And then I decided to actually
write my mother, who I was in the process of
healing our relationship with, and I realized I didn't owe
him a letter. I accepted the letter of forgiveness, I
mean apology. I accept that. And for me, it's really
like forgiveness was for me. It wasn't really about him, right,
you know what I mean? And then so with my
(09:07):
mom that became more important. It was like, you know,
how am I healing this relationship with the woman who
gave birth to me and how do we grow together?
And what I learned from that is that forgiveness is
very complex, because I thought I had forgave my mother,
you know, and then what I realized I forgave her
with conditions. I forgive you, but I need you to
act this way.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right, you want her to change what she had done
that was hurtful to you. But when you forget somebody,
that doesn't mean they're going to be a different person
or the person that you want them to be.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, that I mean, they could be worse, they can
be better. I mean my mom is not the same,
you know, right what it's saying, right, But it's really
about like how do we shape it within ourselves? Right?
And that's the hidden part of it because sometimes we
think that, oh, I forgave you, but then you do
one thing that I dislike, and now I take fifteen
steps back to one question.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
The god that wrote you the letter that shot you,
he was apologetic.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, because what happened is he came across my book.
Another brother was reading one of my books in there,
and he started reading the book and he was like, oh,
I exactly know this story. I'm the guy who poured
that trigger. I never knew. I wouldn't even have wrote
his name even if I did, But I never knew
the guy. I just talked about how that shaped how
I thought about life. And so after I got shot,
(10:22):
I just started carrying a gun every day. And then,
you know, fourteen months later I shot somebody, right, And
so he got the book and he read it and he
was like, oh, I want to apologize to this guy,
you know, And I thought that was I thought it
was courateous of him, not only to be in a
state of maturity to think about how do I apologize
to somebody else, but like his safety could have potentially
(10:42):
been compromising for him to do that. I was like,
you know, I gotta respect that if nothing else.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, it's not doing anything for him. Yeah, to have
done that.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And your mom for seventeen years, she didn't come and
see you, Yeah, while you were locked up.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
What was her reason for that?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
And I hear a lot of times people feel like
when they go to prison that they're forgotten about. People
are moving on with their lives, and then when you
come home sometimes people feel like, well, I'm home now.
This person didn't look out for me that I don't
feel no responsibility to all the people who forgot about
me while I.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Was locked up.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, I mean I used to feel like that, you
know that the early part of my incarceration, I was
very angry at my family. I was very disappointed. I
felt abandoned by my friends. You know, It's one of
the things I tell the young guys when they're out
on the streets, like it's all good until the handcuffs
go on, and I can guarantee you within sixty eight
almost everybody's gone, right, and you may be lucky to
have a grandma or on or you know, pops like
(11:40):
my dad kind of rolled out the whole nineteen years.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Man had a lot of women.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
You're lucky, Yeah about anybody. Fortunately, I was very fortunate.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
But that's different from like the guys you grew up
on the back right, think of your family. Yeah, I
had people step in that you wouldn't even thought they
would have been the ones. But the people who you
think will be there, they're the first ones to slide off,
you know. And so with my mom when she finally
did come to see me, some of them was just
like very logistical. I was a lot of times I
(12:13):
was locked far away you know, Yeah, She's like, I
don't drive on the highway by myself, and you know,
so it was all those things. But for me, I
was like, I don't I didn't want to come home.
Like I talk about in the book, is that I was.
I was incarcerated before I ever went to prison, because mentally,
I have brought into this idea that my life can
(12:33):
only have two outcomes. You're going to be dead in
jail before your twenty ones, right, And so I lived
based on that narrative. But I was free way before
I got I was free before I even knew if
I was ever getting out of prison, because I had
unlocked something in my mind that was like, no matter
what the circumstances are, here's the kind of man I'm
gonna be. Here's the kind of person that I'm gonna
be even within this environment, whether I get out or not.
(12:56):
And so part of that was I had to free
myself from this anger, you know, Like you know, people
see my story Noine, it's like, oh, this must have
been like a model prisoner. I'm like, I was wilding
it at the first eight years. I'm like thirty six
missconducts new case. Seven years in solitary confinement. But when
I got to that place where I was like, you know,
(13:17):
I want to produce different outcomes anger, giving up that
anger was one of them. And in order to give
that up, I had to look at who am I
all angry at? You know?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
How did you do that?
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Because I say things like not giving the fuck is freedom?
Meaning caring less of what people think? Are you not
worrying about the opinions of others?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
That's freedom?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Right?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
Living your ultimate you know who you are, no matter
what that looks like, no matter what that looks like
to other people, that's freedom.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
So how did you get away from the anger?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yeah? For me, it was like recognizing. So I had
this idea that I was like, you know, the kid
who wasn't angry, right, because all my friends' minds be like, oh,
you're so mannable, you're so thoughtful, but they didn't never
saw the other side, you know what I'm saying. And
so I had kind of bought into the idea that
I only get active when somebody has done something offensive, right,
(14:17):
But in reality I realized that I had heard a
lot of people you know what I mean, and that
I was really this angry kid and what happened was
I started journaling, and it's what I call active journaling, right,
And I really talk about it in the book because
sometimes people are like, oh, you just write a thing down.
It's like, no, you write it down so you could
be clear about it. But then what are the action
steps you're going to take to heal from it? And
(14:39):
for me, I would write when I was in solitary,
whenever I would like find myself like really really angry,
like my neighbor blew the power out one time. I'm
literally writing my journal like, yo, when I get out,
I'm a shank doog blah blah, you know what I mean.
But then I would go back and read it because
that was the active part, Like don't just write it,
but go back and read it when you're not angry.
And I was reading one day and I was like,
(15:01):
this sounds like a mad man. This is not how
I see myself, but this is really who I've become, right,
And so I knew like if I wanted to be
a different person, I had to heal that person, and
I had to get down to the roots of like,
you know who I thought I was, but to who
I actually was, and that was a game change, you
know what I mean, And so I started. I still
(15:21):
have all my journals from prison. I still really helps you. Yeah,
going back and reading absolutely like.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
You know, in this book you will also talk about
another incident that really shaped you as a kid. The
neighbor of c. M. Yeah, and I know certain names.
You know you're not going to give absolutely, Yeah, but
this was a neighbor. You guys would go over there,
all the kids watched the Kung fu flicks, you know,
have a good time. This particular time, you guys were
(15:56):
They said, some of the kids can come and stay
the night, and he attempted to molest you.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And that was something that you did not tell your parents.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And it's you know, I think that that is a
hard thing because you feel like, did I do something wrong?
And that happens right, And you also feel like I've
heard children say this too. They don't want to endanger
their parents. Also, by then the parents go over there,
they get into a fight.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Who knows what can happen.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I've heard people say that things have happened and that's
why they didn't tell their parents. But then you went
on to attempt to break into his home and that
was kind of your revenge, but nobody knew what had
happened to you, and it took you a long time
to even be able to reveal that. But we don't
(16:46):
know sometimes, like what children are dealing with and going through.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Yeah. Absolutely, It's one of the reasons that I'm super
sensitive when it comes to mentoring young people. And you know,
you see these kids who have been labeled as acting out,
and because of my own experiences, I know that none
of these things are without cause. And so in the
case of Cem, you know, this was a trusted family friend,
and you know, this guy attempted to molest me, and
(17:12):
you know, as a result of that, I literally broke
into his house and like in my mind, I'm like,
we're gonna steal all this stuff, We're gonna destroy it.
And I ended up getting caught. And when I got caught,
you know, my parents was like, we didn't raise you
like this, and why would you do this? And so
they were really upset. But the thing is they had
never created space for us to tell the full truth.
And so as a kid, you have something that violation
(17:34):
of trust and you internalize that, and it's one of
the things like when I talk about why I wrote
this book. I've met so many people who have internalized
the behaviors of others, whether it's childhood trauma, whether it's assault,
whether it's violence, you take on that identity. That's where
negative self taught comes from. And so when my parents,
like they punished me for the behavior, I internalized that
(17:58):
even more of like, well, maybe I did something wrong,
but maybe it was my fault. And so for years
I was angry with them, and you know, and there
was a shame attached to that. Right I had got
arrested in front of our whole block, you know, yeah,
Like they literally was like, what is you doing? Yeah,
so now you got that embarrassment, and it's one of
(18:19):
the things that you know, for me, when I got
to a space where I talked to my parents, this
was like, I mean, this wasn't that long. It's like
three years ago. I was like fifty years old when
I called my dad and I was like, hey, I
just want to talk to you about something that I
realized I was still carrying this anger about that. They
never understood my wife and they never even questioned it.
And I'm like, if you know your kid to be good,
(18:41):
otherwise and they do something that's so outside of who
you know them to be, Like, you got to be
patient and interrogate that, you know what I mean, because
otherwise it kind of imprisons them and it's shame. And
that's what happened to me. But when I talked to
my parents, it was amazing, you know, that they were
both present and willing to go on that journey, and
(19:02):
especially like with my dad, like that has to be
hard as a father's like you're trusting your child in
the care of another man who you respect, right, and
then this guy attempts to take advantage of your child.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You know, I just thank god that you were able
to get out of that situation.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I mean I attribute that to like my siblings,
like being being having older siblings, you kind of become
a little bit more savvy about life than if you're
trying to figure it out on your own, you know.
And so anytime I felt like I was in some
type of danger, I had kind of examples from my
siblings and how to move, yeah, how to move Yeah.
But I think about all the kids who probably didn't.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
That didn't a lot. It's a lot, a lot, it's
a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
I'm working on a book, and I've been working on
this book for a while.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
It's almost ready.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
I've been talking about it for a while now, and
it kind of reminds me of what you what you
got going on and what you're doing. The name of
my book is called All the Freedom Right, and it's
to me, it's it's like my philosophy in my in
my in my uh my game, and how I feel
(20:06):
about what it takes to to stay out of prison.
So it's like for people that it's either just got
out of jail or it's about to write. So you know,
they got all those pre release programs and stuff like that.
You know, here's a book, not big, but just something
that could you know, you read a chapter day or
something like that, like Delhi Meditations or something like that,
and just to help give you some game on how
to stay you know, mentally, you know, prepared for all
(20:31):
of the things that you gotta deal with. You know,
I like what you did you're doing because that's something
that I don't think I included that in the book, right,
about the mental prisons, about some of the things that
kind of hold us back.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Because you can.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Be free physically but yet still trapped in this in
this this, this this world where you just locked in.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Absolutely, Yeah, that's That's one of the things. When I
wrote this book, I was super intentional about making it
accessible to people who have never been incarcerated. And actually
that's more of my audience because I've worked in tech,
you know, I've been an investor in tech, I've worked
in entertainment, I produced, I've done all types of stuff.
And I've seen people out here who have never stepped
(21:15):
foot in the jail that are way more incarcerated, Like
I mean, imposter syndrome, doubt. What is that? Yeah, that's
when you're showing up in the space and you're not
being your authentic self.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
And you feel like you don't belong there.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
And how about the guy that continuously wants to be
something that you know he's not.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
That is it is aspect.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Is when you really do deserve to be somewhere and
you feel like you don't. Absolutely, you know, you feel
like even though you can have all of the accolades
and the knowledge, and you go in a room and
you know, it's interesting to me because even your friendship
with and you talk about this, and Ben Harwitz called
in when you were on with Oprah.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
That's my guy.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, and even of how you guys met, but it
was you know, I even was like, man, when Oprah
introduced you and then you guys were going to have
dinner and they were like, oh, this guy did this,
let's not have him at the house.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I felt like, I don't know, it bothered me, you
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I know that'shit brother, and then and that things have
come around, and it's so interesting to me to see
how people can have this perception of somebody who they'll
be like, well, he murdered someone, he went to jail
to prison for nineteen years.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I don't know if we should have them.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I mean, that's not unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Right, I understand that, and it's not unreasonable.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
But from our culture, we're like, oh, that's you know
what I mean, because we have we have proximity to
it quite often, right, And there's different when you don't
have proximity to it and you're coming from Because I
think about this all the time, like when you come
from a different space and don't have proximity to someone
like me, I can imagine it's not the easiest thing
to be like come from my home.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Right, Donald Trunk has done some awful things and been
convicted of them, and he's the president.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
You know what I'm saying. And I but I.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Will say when I said that, I also was just
thinking about it in the context of I thought about
Michael Rubin, right, and how he didn't understand like how
somebody could be falsely imprisoned until Meek Miles situation and
seeing how probation can really just keep you like locked
(23:34):
in forever psychl Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
It's coming from such a such a such a.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Place of privilege, and that's yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Totally oblivious to this type of lifestyle in the world
for us that we had some body right.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
When she said when she said, uh, he did nine
years in solitary, I said, he was getting Busyand.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Do you feel like now it's been a lot more
people like because I do feel like this whole movement now,
you know, we see so many different organizations that are
talking about like the prison system, and there's been a
lot more stories of people who have been unfairly targeted.
When you see the disparities between who's you know, getting representation,
(24:27):
who's getting the longer sentences, who's going to prison, And
it's something that has been a lot more awareness about it.
Do you feel like now since when you first came home,
it's been a lot more like acceptance and also people
just feeling like, Wow, that's your story.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
We need to do something together. I feel like it
used to be like that.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
No.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I mean we've done a lot of work, you know,
like like outside of the work that I've done more recently,
which has been more focused on business entrepreneurship, early part
of my career was literally working on changing policies, including
helping meet meals get out. So I work with fifty
I work with Reform Alliance, Jessica Van those like we
was in the trenches. We were like, we're gonna cut
(25:06):
the prison system and half by fifty percent. And so
that work, that storytelling that we did, we really brought
people proximate to like what does transformation look like? And
so you think about Topeka, you think about Wilow, you
think about those of us who've actually put ourselves out
in the most vulnerable way. Right, I think, out of everybody,
I probably had a more serious case. So I'm constantly
(25:26):
getting that, getting that scrutiny. But It's the thing like
even when even when I think about, even though this
is not what this book is about, what I realized
that we had to help people break through their own
interpretation of who they think is in prison, right, you know,
because it's easy to just have those judgments. But then
you started to meet chef Jeff and you realize this guy,
(25:47):
he's an executive chef, but he was also incarcerated and
taught himself how to cook in the kitchen. And so
being able to share those stories, like that's what really
kind of shifted the narrative. And now you know, but
there's a there's a downside to that too, because not
everybody who comes out of prison is going to be
Shocker or Wallow or Mano or to peak it right,
because you gotta you have to separate our talent from
(26:08):
our actual background, you know what I mean. Like I'm
actually really talented while I'm on book three, not because
I was in prison, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
So doesn't get.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Right, Yeah, Like like to Peaka's really talented, she just
happened to have been in prison. Wilo is really talented.
It just happened to be in prison. And so we
have to really separate that part because everybody think the
next person coming out is going to be the next
so and so. And it's like, I've been writing for
twenty five years. You know, I wrote my first journal
twenty five years ago when I was transforming my life.
(26:39):
So all of this this is like the hard earned wisdom.
This is like, this isn't like recent. This is like, hey,
for twenty five years, I've been on this journey. Here's
what i learned from prison. Here's what I've learned from entrepreneurship,
Here's what I learned from investing, and here's what I've
learned in corporate And everybody has a hidden prison, but
every prison has a right.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
You know, this writing. I think the talent that you
have with that.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Now, there's one part of the book where you talk
about writing a letter to the warden, which I was like,
you would even think to do such a thing, but
you wanted to see if you could get out of solitary.
But you also wanted to say, look, I did everything
I said I was going to do, and those were
the bad things, you know. But now I'm saying, instead
of the negative things that I want to do, I
(27:25):
want you to believe that I'm going to be able
to do.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
These positive things.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
He said, you said, if truth is what matters most
in our dialogue, I encourage you to reflect on what
I'm about to propose should do. On the off chance
allow me to re enter general population. I give you
my word that for the remainder of my incarceration, I
will dedicate myself solely to nurturing my writing talent and
mentoring the.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Young guys on the yard.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Gifts I discovered in this place and wish to share
with prisoners and then the world.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
That were absolutely it was the only kind of war.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
It was the only time that because when I was reading,
I said, they're.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Not letting that word.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
But here's the thing. I was reading all this philosophy right,
and I was like, okay, if the truth is what matter,
Like I told you when I came to prison, I'm
never following the rules. Here's the proof of that. I
got thirty five minutes conducts. Only things that matter? Is
am I a man of my word? Clearly I'm a
man of my words. If you believe me in the negative,
can you believe me in a postive? And you should
(28:21):
be able.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
To yeah to myself. This philosophical shit really was.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Well, he advocated for me and I had you had
nine in there already.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, so at that time I had I had been
in solitary about two and a half and I had
been in prison about ten and a half and then
but it still took some time for me to get out.
But he advocated for me for the next couple of years.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah. Yeah, And then I got out of I was
a man of my word. I literally focused on writing.
I wrote. I wrote a total of six books before
I got out of prison. I started off writing fiction
and I mentored a young young man on the block.
Like a lot of those guys, they even look up
to me to this day. And I go back and sat,
I was, I was like, you Records Island yesterday, I
could I kicked the project. Yeah, we kicked the book
(29:06):
to off.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
And you're donating books for the prisons.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
So we've donated books to thirteen hundred prisons, which comes
around to almost a million people who are incarcerated. And
so they got the book before the rest of the
world because their life is a metaphor. And I wanted
to make sure that people are incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, you better signed the publishing company. But even look,
even when Shaka came home and you know, had the book,
he had to push those books himself on the streets.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah. I was really out the trunk with us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I started off hustling books all around Detroit parks, gentlemen clubs,
you name it. I was there and eventually, yeah, yeah,
I used to.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Be there every Saturday starlet party.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
They sim Detroit is a whole back I'm chop to
slangy books and yeah, yeah, but that was the path.
And eventually one of those books made it to Oprah,
and then that was a game changer.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
You never know what can happen. Boy, let me tell you.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
That's all. You got to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Just like Shaka said, He'll set down the intention and
you just got to finish it.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, because I wrote, I literally wrote that down, so
all the things I live now, because I really want
people to understand this about what makes this book so
amazing to me is that I'm not just pulling stories
from out of the thin air and saying, hey, you
see what Lebron did, you can do it too. I
don't know what that's like. I'm not a forty year
old hooper with a twenty year history. Right. What I
(30:38):
do know is that the things that I said I
was going to do when I got out, I wrote
those things down. I practice mindfulness. I practiced meditation, and
I practiced it in a way that requires a lot
of activation. Like you can't just write something down and
forget it. Right, I'm in solitary. I write my first book.
I asked a guy's on the cell block. You want
to read this book? A guy was like, Yo, this
(30:59):
ain't Oprah.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I have that right here.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yes, I think that is so ironic. You said, does
anyone to read this book? I just wrote someone down
to tear? Responded back, don't nobody want to read that shit?
This ain't Oprah? And look at that next thing. You know,
you said, I'm gonna write something worthy of Oprah herself
taking the time out to read it.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Who would have ever thunk it?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah? I mean I was in solitary, so I couldn't
get active. So I'm like, okay, what can I do?
And I'm like, okay, well, actually this guy just gave
me a goal, Like I want to write. I don't
want to just be a good writer for someone's been
in prison. I want to be one of the best
in the world. And what's the better measurement is if
over read it, you rise to that level. And so
now she's on book number three, which to tell you
(31:38):
a lot about I got Joe Rogan over here and
Oprah over here. So wow, I got Pee Aelou.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Now listen, you talk about the keys to releasing anger, right,
write down your anger, identify primary emotion, create a counter mantra,
and then meditate to release anger. So no, just thinking
about working through that, because what I love is at
the end of each chapter you are giving people, you know, just.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Really like the tools to dig deeper. You call it
digging deeper.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Absolutely, yeah. And what I love about the Digging Deeper
chapters that you notice there's like a little door at
the top. And the door is because I wanted people
to know that you can access this anytime, you can
come in and out, because that's life, right. Sometime you're
going to get it right, and sometimes you're going to
take a little step back, and it's like, once you
take that step back, just know that you can go
back to these tools and it'll help release you from
(32:28):
that that hit in prison.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Now Another thing that was really impactful in your life
was marriage. And see Lizy here too. You didn't change
her name in the book. You didn't have to.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Now.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
One thing you were gifted was mirrors, right, and the
elder who gifted the mirror said to you, and marriage,
you become a mirror to your partner. What you reflect
is what you will receive in return. If you reflect love,
patients are understanding, you will get that back. But if
you reflect anger, resentment, or indifference, that too will come
back to you. A happy marriage is built not just
on love, but on the reflections you too to create
(33:00):
every day. And you talk about love being an active choice.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's marital love, but it's also self
love and it's also relational love and friendship and all
those things are like really the primary drivers in life.
To me personally, it's like how much shown up in love?
How much shwn up in love with my wife, how
much swn up in love as a father, how much
shwn up in love as a friend. And it all
comes back to self love because that's what eradicates self doubt,
(33:27):
negative self talk, And when you're in relation with anybody,
like you're only going to get out of it what
you put into it right, And it doesn't mean it's
like perfect. Like sometimes that mirror is dirty and dusty
and strange stuff and you gotta clean it off and
you got to get back to like, Okay, why don't
we show up in each other's life in the first place?
And I'm fortunate and lucky to have a brilliant, beautiful
wife and that that makes me happy. It's like dope, man.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I just am blown away by all the work that
you've been doing every single you know, I've read three
of your books at this point.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah, you know, the letters to your sons.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, also, which was amazing for you for us to
be able to read, you know. May now you have
a son, you have a daughter. Do you ever write,
like when is the last time you've written anything? Because
I do think that writing is a really purposeful different
type of.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Practice to them. Yeah, no, never other than textas it's.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Not crazy that text messages makes it like so when's
the last time somebody wrote you something like physically?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
But it's all writing though, like I mean, like even
I wrote, I wrote a great percentage of this book,
like literally in my notes, like I'll be up late
at night or tak Yeah, and I'll have like a
thought of like, you know, story, I'm just put it
in my notes and like and I you know, I
try to encourage the young people I mentor about the craft,
right because there is the craft of writing. Then that's storytelling.
(34:48):
But I think all of it, all of it matters,
you know. That's that's I outline that in the book. Like,
use whatever tools you have at your disposal to get
those stories out.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
So you can talk toil.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, I do that too, I do it all. I'll
be like no because you know, sometimes you move in
life is happening and you don't want to miss the
energy at that moment. So get a chance to share
all these truths in a variety of ways.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
What are some of the things that have happened since
you've been writing, even from you know, when you first
came home and writing your wrongs came out. But what
are some things that people have said to you in
ways that you've affected their lives, that have touched on
you know.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
What's really amazing and truly the greatest honor that I've
ever received is the consistency of feedback from people who
read my work. You know, every day, like literally every
day for probably the last ten years, I get a message,
text message, DM, I get something from somebody saying, hey,
this really helped me. And you know, when I was
writing this book, I have like my friends, so I'm like, yo,
(35:45):
can you read this for me? Can you just let
me know? Is it resonating? And that hidden prison piece
has been really opening people up. And I mean I've
got friends from all walks of life who are like, hey,
I was trying to work through something deep in my
life and like joy that's been the brothers in my life.
They've been like on fire about that chapter because they're like,
(36:08):
we don't even talk about how do we as men
access joy? You know. And so that that consistent feedback
has been credit's been over ten years. I always get
something positive from all of my different writers, even sometimes
stuff I've written just online, you know, And so's the
that's the greatest, you know, part of all of this
journey is like I'm a writer's writer, and so to
(36:29):
have people you know, move by my words that that
means everything to me.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
All right, well, I love it, and you know, lastly,
I want to end with this part. You said the
one thing I right for used to do was get
stuck in a loop of negative negativity. The moment a negative,
the service, I counted it with positive affirmations. These are
like real things you know that we can do, you said.
I meditated on gratitude, grounding myself and the blessings I
already had, rather than the challenges I faced. It's all
(36:54):
about a commitment to shifting my mindset. It wasn't just
about pushing through. It was about creating a found of
self belief that allowed me to see possibilities instead of
obstacles and to keep moving forward with hope and purpose.
And I think that's impactful. There's things that I still
struggle with myself to these days. I think everybody struggles
with forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah, would would you think that's like one of your
bigger hitting prisons that forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I think that it's hard to say.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
There's people that have been like so awful that I
just never even want to deal with them and forget
that they exist.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And so I'm not a vengeful person.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I'm more of a you don't exist to me at
all anymore type of person.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
But if you still entertain the pain that they cause,
they do exist to you, and so real forgiveness is
about how do you release that?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So we're not going to sit down and be cool
like you said, we don't got to kick it.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
But but if you.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Release it, you're having a whole different free experience.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
It's like pretending it didn't exist releasing it.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
But it's not pretending because if you pretend they always
come back, they always don't come back. It's really is
deciding that, hey, you can no longer occupy this space
in my life and that I'm going to walk out
of this door to the freest version of myself because
I've given up all anger, animosity, attachment to this old
(38:14):
thing that no longer says.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
You know what I tell people when it's like a situation,
because you know, sometimes your friends will have a tendency
to like send you stuff about a person like you're like,
oh my god, I cannot stand this person. I don't
even want to think about it, but they'll send you
like you see this, Oh they said this, they said that,
And I'm like, just don't even mention that person to me,
like just erasing like eternal you've seen eternal Sunshinel, the
(38:36):
spotless mind, is it like erasing it out of my brain.
That helped me a lot.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, I mean that's that's that's, that's part of what
that's part of what giving it up is. Right as
you stop entertaining the old story, but you also have
to like create real boundaries with the people in your
life who can continue to bring that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I don't even that, don't mention their name, it doesn't exist.
I moved on.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
You know, let's keep going, but definitely practices in here that,
like you said, this doesn't have to be just for
people who were justice impacted, but also for somebody like
myself who is trying to get out of my own free.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, your mind, man, two shackles and athletes, executives, entrepreneurs.
Everyday people are just trying to live free persons themselves.
That's really who this book is.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
And I'm really hoping he's going to help me, know.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Praying for the first step were you were already you
already started the first step by reading it, and now
you get a.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Chance to share. Got another copy, you can have this
one all right? Well, Shaka, thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I really appreciate you and I know you have respect
all over on tour so people can check you out.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Right well up only Detroit, I'm coming, Atlanta, all over,
l A, you name it, I'm there. So I'm super excited.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I got to pull up somewhere because.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Come full of the I know I'm not.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Gonna I want it to come, but I can't because
I'll be traveling when you're in Detroit.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
But we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
We're gonna figure it out, please, And we're.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Gonna relaunch probably at the top of the year too,
So we're going in like, this work is so important
to me and I really want as many people in
the world to have access to it as possible. So
I'm gonna do a second tour just to make sure
that I'm touching the people and really sharing these truths
in this book.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
So all right, come back and see us.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Let's see what we already know, what type of meditation
Mano has been doing.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Stop it's way up
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Angela Yee
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