September 10, 2024 • 24 mins
Justice Kyra H. Bolden On Inspiration, Advocacy, Priorities, Racist Judge In Detroit, + More
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's It's way up with Angela Yee and I am
on my best behavior today because Justice Kira Harris Bolden
is in the building.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Hello? I feel great. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Before I started the show, was trying to come up
with like a nickname, you know, KHB. Yes, Kira Harris Bolden,
but then we said maybe big Bolden, Big Bolden, like
you know. But I do want to just take a
moment to also commend you and shine a light on
you because you have broken a lot of barriers and
your story is so amazing and fascinating.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I feel like everybody needs to know it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But you're the first black female Supreme Court justice and
that is amazing because, like we always say, if you
can see it, you can be it. Yes, And so
just imagine how this has affected so many young black
girls who never may have thought that this was possible
for them.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Absolutely absolutely. I was one of those little girls, you know,
being the first. I had to grow up never seeing
a black woman on the Missie against Supreme Court, and
now I get to be that and hopefully be an
inspiration for so many people coming after me.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
And you had a big gretch also appoint you. Yes,
I saw that. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So I want to talk about your journey to how
you got to this position, right, what made you even
say I want to go to law school.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
So a combination of things. When I was in college,
I was getting my psycho psychology degree, but I had
the great fortune of having my great grandmother with me
until I was a senior in college, and she told
me the story of my great grandfather, jess Lee Bond,
who was lynched in Tennessee in nineteen thirty nine after
(01:39):
asking a store owner for a receipt and he was
beaten and castrated and thrown into the local river, and
the corner deemed it an accidental drowning, and as a
result of that determination, his murderers walked free.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And this is in nineteen thirty nine. Just to again
reiterate that which is, by the way, not that.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Not that long ago. And for my great grandmother to
still be alive and to be able to share that
with me, it just put it in such a context
that government sanctioned and justice was the norm in our
country not too long ago. And it, you know, injustice
can rear its ugly head if we're not vigilant, and
(02:20):
so that and other things, I decided to pursue a
law career.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
And talking to your great grandma, that did she talk
to you about how that affected her? Because imagine this
is her husband that this happened to. Yes, and so
then after that, now how does she manage to even
feel like she can continue on and be optimistic about
a country where something like this can happen?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
So I will say that in my family, and again,
this was not told to me until I was an adult, right,
and so this was almost a shame. That was that
that was treated like a shame or just a trauma. Right.
And so by the time she told me, she was,
you know, in her nineties, and so it was kind
(03:05):
of just a part of her journey. She was just
sharing recipes and just telling me what people were doing
down the street. She will always look out her front window,
you know. I had that type of great grandmother. But
it was just very much in a storytelling mode of
I just want to share this before I pass, and
it was all the things she shared with me were
(03:26):
very powerful, but it was very noteworthy for me that
it wasn't shared with me throughout my life.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Right, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And we talk about DEI and we see how a
lot of that is being rolled back. And I always
tell people, you have to understand, it's not like unqualified
people getting positions. These are qualified people that may not
have had opportunities because of the color of this skin
or because of their sex. And so when you think
about diversity in the Michigan you know, Supreme courts, why
(03:55):
is that important for people who are listening that are like, oh,
you know, everybody equally follows the law and so that
shouldn't matter.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But for you, why is that perspective important? Well?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I believe the Michigan Supreme Court and as well as
our courts in general, should reflect the diversity of the
perspectives and experiences of the people that come before them.
There's a certain lived experience and perspective that I will
bring and that other people will bring as a result
of being the youngest, or me being a new mom,
(04:26):
or me being a black woman. There are certain perspectives
that I bring to the table that help inform how
we view the law and help us to make interpretations.
And there's seven of us on the Michigan Supreme Court.
There's a reason there's not just one Supreme Court justice.
We're meant to have these conversations and to disagree and
to have a really robust conversation. So I think diversity
(04:49):
is incredibly important to get the answer right. Not diversity
for the sake of diversity, but in order to truly
get to the right decision. I believe it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And I just want to shed again and highlight three
things you just said. The youngest you were, what, thirty
four when I was Yeah, yeah, thirty four when you
first got into this position. Also a new mom, yes,
which is important because sometimes people think that women having
babies can't They don't ask men about that, but for
(05:19):
a woman when they're like, oh, she's gonna have a kid,
is she going to be able to do the things?
And sometimes people delay that because they don't feel like
they can compete. Absolutely, and so I love the fact
that you were a new mom at the time. Also,
and you know, the only black women. Yes, So that
is all first. Yes, how does it feel being in
that space, because that's you know, that is also pressure,
(05:41):
people are watching what's happening, but it's also just amazing.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, you know what I have been able to build
a thick skin throughout my career. Got to got to
you know, I was a legislator before being on the
Michigan Supreme Court, and the Michigan politics and the legislature.
That's the lion's den of politics, right, So I've been
(06:06):
through that. I was a legislator, through the pandemic, I
was a civil litigator, and so I built up a
really thick skin. And I think, you know, for me,
it's just standing on my square of my knowledge, based
my abilities and my experiences and just saying, hey, I
can do this and raising my hand to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
All right now, I know there's a lot of things
we can't talk about today, but you know, because of
your position, I understand that. But I do want to
talk to you about something that was on the news
over the weekend. Hold On, let me pull up this
woman's name, and I just want to get because we
just talked about representation, but we also talked about how
you have to follow the law and how people's experiences
can also affect that.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So, there was a judge in the suburbs of Detroit
and somebody was one of her co workers, was actually
recording her because she was saying a lot of things
that were racist and homophobic.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Did did you.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
See this story as it was happening. No, okay, So
I'm gonna thill you in. So she's no longer handling cases.
A court official turned over recordings of her making anti
gay insults and referring to black people as lazy. Right,
Oakland County Probate Judge Kathleen Ryan was removed from her
docket for unspecified misconduct. Now they are talking about why
(07:22):
the court administrator blew the whistle on her and secretly
recorded their calls. He said, I just want to make
it right. I want to keep my job and do
it in peace. And he wants people to be able
to get a fair shake, to have their day in court,
to have an unbiased trier of fact. And so this
person and they vetted out the calls and everything to
authenticate that it was really that. She said, I'm not
systematically racist, I'm a new racist. She also referred to
(07:44):
black people in the United States as lazy, and then
she also used gay slurs. But it's important for us
to note that there's definitely people like this in this
country as we have seen and in the world. But
people like that should not be in a position where
they have, you know, part of your life and things
that are happening for you in the palm of their
hands to make those decisions.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, And what I will say about that, The first
thing is I try my best not to watch the
news because I don't want anything to im Yeah, I
had to really cut down on that. But the second
thing is what a lot of people may not know
is and I'm not sure if this is true for
other states, but the Michigan Supreme Court actually renders punishment
(08:26):
for our lower court judges. And so yeah, I know that,
yeah we do. And so but what I will just
say generally, in Michigan, our judges are elected and some
states they're appointed and things like that. But we have
the opportunity to vote for our judges. And that's why
I have been trying to sound the alarm to make
(08:49):
sure you know who you're voting for, because it is
so important to having justice rendered in your community, to
make sure that you believe and the quality of the
character and integrity of the people that are serving you.
And a lot of people may not be justice impacted,
but you know, if someone you know is justice impacted,
(09:11):
it makes a huge difference of whether your judge has
compassion and empathy for the people that they serve. This
is a service position.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Right absolutely, because I can't imagine that somebody who would
say those things are feel that way can be fair
when it comes to having to preside over anything.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
And we have to be very vigilant to make sure
that we know who we're voting for for judge and
justices for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So you can't watch the news, that means you don't
look at the Jasmine brand, Baller Alert, none of that.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
You don't know what's going on. I like that for you.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I try to shield myself from a lot of things
and really focus on my cases. You know, from time
to time, I'll watch reality TV show.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Get Out of Here? You watch can you say so
Love Island or so I have?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I have watched Love Island, only watching Selling Sunset in
my free time. So yes, I do try to engage
in reality TV show Love and Marriage Detroit just came
back on, So I'm going to try to catch that
I haven't been able to. But yeah, yeah, I will
engage in those things.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Okay, that's not going to have you based at all.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah, I just enjoy just entertainment.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
At times, you do have to separate work from personal
and because I'm sure that there's times when you leave work,
and how hard is it for you to to be
able to just relax, meditate.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And not think about work.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I have, over this last year and a half have
tried to adjust myself. And I used to think about
it as work life balance, but now I just think
about it as juggling, okay. And I know that I
have to be present in the moments that I'm in
and when one when I'm doing one thing something else,
(10:58):
another ball is dropping and I have to know that
and be okay with that. So when I'm at work,
I'm president at work. When I'm at home, I'm usually
you know, I'm mom. And so I'm trying to be
present in those moments.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
When you when did you realize that you wanted to
pursue being a Michigan Supreme Court justice?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
When did you realize that was your path?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah? So my path was not that I'm just this
ambitious thirty something. You're old. My congresswoman, Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence
now retired, but shout out to her. She actually asked
me to run in June of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Oh, she okay, they summoned you like they need to.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
They summoned me, and because I was her state representative,
she had seen the work. I'm very much do the
work behind the scenes. I even running for stay representative.
I was asked to do that, and I kind of
don't like saying that, but for women running for office,
usually we have to be asked and that's just the
reality of the situation. But anyway, she asked me, and
(11:56):
I said no. I said no multiple times. But then
but because I actually ended up getting pregnant and so
all of the things that you just talked about about the
societal expectations of you know, you can only do one
or the other. Those obviously those thoughts obviously creeped in.
But when my daughter was I was in my second
(12:18):
trimester and I just thought about what it would mean
for her and her Do I want her to continue
to grow up in a Michigan or in a nation,
in a world where there has never been a woman
on the Michigan a black woman on the Michigan Supreme Court,
or Am I going to try to be that representation
for her? And I chose to try.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Big Bolden, and I do want to say also, it
is a sacrifice, you know, to make, because, like you said,
you were asked to run for office, and people don't
understand how hard that is and how important it is, because,
as you said previously, representation matters. And we can be
really upset about laws that are happening and things like
(12:59):
bills that past or not passed, or things that we
feel like we need. But if we're not voting or
even encouraging people to run for office who we would
love to have represent us, then you're part of the
problem too. I always look at it as people can
complain all they went, but if you don't have somebody
that you're encouraging to run for office to represent you
and then getting on that campaign and standing behind them
(13:19):
or running yourself, if you feel like you can make
some change and you don't want to just talk and complain,
then you're part of the problem too.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, you know, as someone that was previously a legislator
in Michigan and someone that's on the Michigan Supreme Court currently,
and these are usually elected positions, I was appointed, but
I did run for the seat in twenty twenty two
and lost, and then it was appointed. I have seen
the depth and breadth of what it's like to be
an elected official and the decisions that they're making, literally
(13:47):
determining who gets funds, who lives, who dies, in some cases,
who thrives. It really makes a difference in who represents you.
It really does, and I've seen that up front, and
so at least for the judiciary branch, which goals under
the radar so often. I have just been trying to
(14:07):
be more transparent and showing my journey on social media,
and because it's so important to know who you're voting
for and that those people have your best interests at
hurt is.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Your goal one day to perhaps be on the Supreme
Court the United States.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
My goal is to get this election, thank you.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
My goal is to be retained from my seat on
November fifth and continue to serving the people of Michigan.
But you know, I am in my thirties. I'm thirty
six now, and you know there are a lot of
things that I hope to do, but I need to
make sure that one thing that's really important to me
is lifting as you climb, And so I know I
(14:51):
need to be in my position, but I also know
that I need to make sure that the next generation
of justices are being brought up. So that's what I'm
focused on.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And can we talk about some of the issues that
you have been championing, just so people know what you
stand for, because I also think it's important for people
when we go into vote. Sometimes also you're like looking
at stuff, but you may not even recognize some of
the names or know what's going on. So it's really
important to do your research. But I love to hear
from people firsthand of things they've actually accomplished, because there's
(15:19):
a lot of misinformation out there.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, well, I will take it back to my history. Yeah,
as a representative, so I was able to get five
bills passed into law in the Michigan Legislature while serving
in the minority. Most of those were criminal justice reforms.
So I was a part of the Medically Frail Bill
reform package, giving people parole for those that were deemed
(15:41):
medically frail. I was a part of the Amendment for
the Wrong Form Prisonment and Compensation Act, so giving more
people access to that fund if they're deemed to be
wrongfully convicted. And I was also a part of the
Address Confidentiality Act, which shields the addressed for survivors of
domestic violence in human trafficking so that their abusers can't
find them.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
These feel like givens, like.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
You would think you but as a Supreme Court justice,
I have been able to author eight majority opinions while
in my seat. Some of those have been related to
criminal issues, some of them have been related to election issues,
and so I really you know, all of this is public,
(16:25):
and I hate to get people more work, but at
least for me. You can go to the Michigan Supreme
Court website. You can see the issues that we've decided.
You can see who's been in the majority and who's
the scentic because.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
We don't always a yeah, absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
But you know, I have had a long history in
this space of service, and I'm very proud of my record.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Okay, there's so many things that I know I can't
ask you, so I won't do that here, because you know,
you just ran down a lot of things. And I've
heard people talk about, you know, bills they've passed or
being on the right side of things that checks they've
signed for things that they didn't even want to pass.
So it's just good to hear firsthand, because since I
people just make things up too.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Oh, I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
What do you think is the hardest part of your job?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Honestly, the hardest part of my job currently, or I
would say the first thing is the juggling. The Michigan
Supreme Court is a statewide campaign. Michigan is a huge state,
and I'm trying to get to everybody that I.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Shud is and I think sometimes we forget that.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
It's like because we think Michigan we're like, okay, Detroit,
but unicorn in Michigan.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, I think from one part of the state the
up all the way down to the bottom. You're talking
about in eight hour drive, right, So it's a huge
state and we're trying to get around to as many
people as possible. And I think we've been doing an
excellent job at that, but you know, it requires time
and I'll obviously making good decisions on the court and
(17:53):
then having a two year old at home, So the juggling,
But other than that, I will say uncovering and dismantling
the systemic barriers that caused me to be the first
black woman in the first place.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, it's crazy because people will act like saying oh,
it's so long ago. We all have an equal place
to start out now and pull you know, the pull
yourself up by your bootstafs.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So she did it, you can do it.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
But you see firsthand how there have been a lot
of obstacles put into place, things that we feel like
should be given that.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Aren't absolutely Absolutely. I'll ask simple questions and people will say,
you know, well, that's just how we've always done it. Well,
somebody like me wasn't at the table when it was done,
So we need to reevaluate what we're doing going forward. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I got to ask you, you know, you seem from
everything I know about your background and even how you
present today pretty fly.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
How did your husband bag you? I want to know
how he locked that in.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
So our story is we went to preschool, middle school,
high school together. We were not friends, we were not dating.
We went to the same college. We started dating.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
In college following me.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I mean, his parents lived around the corner from my parents,
so we would drive home together from college all the time,
and we became very very good friends. And you know,
one day when he just kind of looked at me
and he said, like, maybe we should date. I'm like, okay, right.
I knew him very very well. Our families, you know,
(19:24):
were so close, and we grew up together. So we
started dating. And then he actually went on to University
Trade Mercy Dental school and I went to the University
Traite Mercy Law school. So all of our graduations are
in common. Our lives have just been ordered together, and
it just we've just been together ever since. And so
(19:45):
that is how he bagged me. He had to stay
in my life and be pervasive online dating site.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
For you.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yeah, we've been together for a fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
That's so interesting that you didn't look at y'all didn't
look at each other like that at first, or maybe
he was always looking at.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
You like that.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
He claims that he wasn't, but he was. Well.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Listen for people who are listening to this right because
they can vote for you in the upcoming election.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
November November fifth, the last day.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's the last day.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
But we can vote early, Yes, you can vote early
in Michigan. You can vote by absentee. There's so many
different ways that you can vote now. So is the
last day all? Right?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
And what is most concerning and pressing to you right now?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
What are some of the issues for you that you're like, look,
these are things that I want to make sure it
can happen while I'm in my position.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, I want to make sure one that there are
there's a diversity in the Michigan Supreme Court and in
our judicial branch. As far as staffing is concern, that
is something that's very, very pressing because if you pull
from the same sources, you're going to get the same
(21:01):
the same people, and they really inform their judge or
justices on how to make rulings right, So it's important
to have your staff that's making that's doing the research
and helping to make good decisions. The other thing is
I'm working just really really hard and absorbing as much
knowledge as possible about the processes and procedures of the
(21:22):
court in order to make substantial changes to make it
easier for the next person coming after me. So that's
really really what I'm focused on. But other than that,
as far as cases coming up, it's no secret that
it's election time and so we have election cases those
are resolved at the Michigan Supreme Court if they have
to do with Michigan election law. But honestly, you know,
(21:46):
lesser known issues. We deal with everything. A lot of
people think we just do criminal or constitutional law. We
deal a termination of parental rights cases. Oh wow, we
deal with custody, we divorce issues.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
That's everyday life, every.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Day life that we're made and we're the last word
on it. And so a lot of people don't realize
how much we're affecting it are affecting them, but we do.
Every single day.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
We need you there. I just trying to get my job.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Absolutely, does it get real heated when you guys are
coming together, like.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
How does that? How does that look?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Usually it's very very cordial. We actually have lunch together.
Never heard that at the at the Michigan Supreme Court table.
We actually have lunch together once or twice a week.
So even though you know we may disagree on issues,
we try not to be disagreeable. Now we have have
(22:42):
We have had some heated discussions. My tolerance for it
is very very high because I was in the legislature
and there's nothing but disagreement. So I kind of just
sit back and listen to everybody. But yeah, there have
been some heated discussions at times.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I can imagine the perspective that you bring, like you said,
just for you all the things that they didn't have,
and so to have somebody come in there and say, okay,
well from my point of view and me being in
this position, this is why this is important. And some
things that people may not have thought of before.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Oh yeah, my colleagues, even though they've been on the
bench you know, a lot longer than me, in some cases,
sometimes they still turn me and say, what was the
legislature thinking Kiro.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
On this issue?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Because I know how the saucias just made so to
speak as far as how you know, the legislature thinks,
and so that's crucial to when we're interpreting law.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Well, Justice Bolden aka Big Bolden, we appreciate you so
much for coming through today.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I'm so glad we had a chance to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I've read about you on Essence when they highlighted you
as well, but just the work that you're doing. Thank
you so much, because, like I said, sometimes it could
feel like a thankless job, but we appreciate you. Yeah,
make sure remember you have to vote in Michigan. It's
so important to do that. Last message for anybody who's
like I'm going to sit this out. What would you say?
Speaker 3 (23:58):
You know, I don't know what to say to that,
because I just know so much. But don't give up
your power. Your vote is your power of who represents
you and what your quality of life will look like
wherever you are, So don't give up your power.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Don't be stupid, right, don't be stupid? All right, Well,
thank you so much. I appreciate it this way, Justice
Bolden
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Well
What's It's way up with Angela Yee and I am
on my best behavior today because Justice Kira Harris Bolden
is in the building.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello, how are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Hello? I feel great. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Before I started the show, was trying to come up
with like a nickname, you know, KHB. Yes, Kira Harris Bolden,
but then we said maybe big Bolden, Big Bolden, like
you know. But I do want to just take a
moment to also commend you and shine a light on
you because you have broken a lot of barriers and
your story is so amazing and fascinating.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I feel like everybody needs to know it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But you're the first black female Supreme Court justice and
that is amazing because, like we always say, if you
can see it, you can be it. Yes, And so
just imagine how this has affected so many young black
girls who never may have thought that this was possible
for them.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Absolutely absolutely. I was one of those little girls, you know,
being the first. I had to grow up never seeing
a black woman on the Missie against Supreme Court, and
now I get to be that and hopefully be an
inspiration for so many people coming after me.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
And you had a big gretch also appoint you. Yes,
I saw that. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So I want to talk about your journey to how
you got to this position, right, what made you even
say I want to go to law school.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
So a combination of things. When I was in college,
I was getting my psycho psychology degree, but I had
the great fortune of having my great grandmother with me
until I was a senior in college, and she told
me the story of my great grandfather, jess Lee Bond,
who was lynched in Tennessee in nineteen thirty nine after
(01:39):
asking a store owner for a receipt and he was
beaten and castrated and thrown into the local river, and
the corner deemed it an accidental drowning, and as a
result of that determination, his murderers walked free.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And this is in nineteen thirty nine. Just to again
reiterate that which is, by the way, not that.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Not that long ago. And for my great grandmother to
still be alive and to be able to share that
with me, it just put it in such a context
that government sanctioned and justice was the norm in our
country not too long ago. And it, you know, injustice
can rear its ugly head if we're not vigilant, and
(02:20):
so that and other things, I decided to pursue a
law career.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
And talking to your great grandma, that did she talk
to you about how that affected her? Because imagine this
is her husband that this happened to. Yes, and so
then after that, now how does she manage to even
feel like she can continue on and be optimistic about
a country where something like this can happen?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
So I will say that in my family, and again,
this was not told to me until I was an adult, right,
and so this was almost a shame. That was that
that was treated like a shame or just a trauma. Right.
And so by the time she told me, she was,
you know, in her nineties, and so it was kind
(03:05):
of just a part of her journey. She was just
sharing recipes and just telling me what people were doing
down the street. She will always look out her front window,
you know. I had that type of great grandmother. But
it was just very much in a storytelling mode of
I just want to share this before I pass, and
it was all the things she shared with me were
(03:26):
very powerful, but it was very noteworthy for me that
it wasn't shared with me throughout my life.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Right, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And we talk about DEI and we see how a
lot of that is being rolled back. And I always
tell people, you have to understand, it's not like unqualified
people getting positions. These are qualified people that may not
have had opportunities because of the color of this skin
or because of their sex. And so when you think
about diversity in the Michigan you know, Supreme courts, why
(03:55):
is that important for people who are listening that are like, oh,
you know, everybody equally follows the law and so that
shouldn't matter.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But for you, why is that perspective important? Well?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I believe the Michigan Supreme Court and as well as
our courts in general, should reflect the diversity of the
perspectives and experiences of the people that come before them.
There's a certain lived experience and perspective that I will
bring and that other people will bring as a result
of being the youngest, or me being a new mom,
(04:26):
or me being a black woman. There are certain perspectives
that I bring to the table that help inform how
we view the law and help us to make interpretations.
And there's seven of us on the Michigan Supreme Court.
There's a reason there's not just one Supreme Court justice.
We're meant to have these conversations and to disagree and
to have a really robust conversation. So I think diversity
(04:49):
is incredibly important to get the answer right. Not diversity
for the sake of diversity, but in order to truly
get to the right decision. I believe it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And I just want to shed again and highlight three
things you just said. The youngest you were, what, thirty
four when I was Yeah, yeah, thirty four when you
first got into this position. Also a new mom, yes,
which is important because sometimes people think that women having
babies can't They don't ask men about that, but for
(05:19):
a woman when they're like, oh, she's gonna have a kid,
is she going to be able to do the things?
And sometimes people delay that because they don't feel like
they can compete. Absolutely, and so I love the fact
that you were a new mom at the time. Also,
and you know, the only black women. Yes, So that
is all first. Yes, how does it feel being in
that space, because that's you know, that is also pressure,
(05:41):
people are watching what's happening, but it's also just amazing.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, you know what I have been able to build
a thick skin throughout my career. Got to got to
you know, I was a legislator before being on the
Michigan Supreme Court, and the Michigan politics and the legislature.
That's the lion's den of politics, right, So I've been
(06:06):
through that. I was a legislator, through the pandemic, I
was a civil litigator, and so I built up a
really thick skin. And I think, you know, for me,
it's just standing on my square of my knowledge, based
my abilities and my experiences and just saying, hey, I
can do this and raising my hand to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
All right now, I know there's a lot of things
we can't talk about today, but you know, because of
your position, I understand that. But I do want to
talk to you about something that was on the news
over the weekend. Hold On, let me pull up this
woman's name, and I just want to get because we
just talked about representation, but we also talked about how
you have to follow the law and how people's experiences
can also affect that.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So, there was a judge in the suburbs of Detroit
and somebody was one of her co workers, was actually
recording her because she was saying a lot of things
that were racist and homophobic.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Did did you.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
See this story as it was happening. No, okay, So
I'm gonna thill you in. So she's no longer handling cases.
A court official turned over recordings of her making anti
gay insults and referring to black people as lazy. Right,
Oakland County Probate Judge Kathleen Ryan was removed from her
docket for unspecified misconduct. Now they are talking about why
(07:22):
the court administrator blew the whistle on her and secretly
recorded their calls. He said, I just want to make
it right. I want to keep my job and do
it in peace. And he wants people to be able
to get a fair shake, to have their day in court,
to have an unbiased trier of fact. And so this
person and they vetted out the calls and everything to
authenticate that it was really that. She said, I'm not
systematically racist, I'm a new racist. She also referred to
(07:44):
black people in the United States as lazy, and then
she also used gay slurs. But it's important for us
to note that there's definitely people like this in this
country as we have seen and in the world. But
people like that should not be in a position where
they have, you know, part of your life and things
that are happening for you in the palm of their
hands to make those decisions.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, And what I will say about that, The first
thing is I try my best not to watch the
news because I don't want anything to im Yeah, I
had to really cut down on that. But the second
thing is what a lot of people may not know
is and I'm not sure if this is true for
other states, but the Michigan Supreme Court actually renders punishment
(08:26):
for our lower court judges. And so yeah, I know that,
yeah we do. And so but what I will just
say generally, in Michigan, our judges are elected and some
states they're appointed and things like that. But we have
the opportunity to vote for our judges. And that's why
I have been trying to sound the alarm to make
(08:49):
sure you know who you're voting for, because it is
so important to having justice rendered in your community, to
make sure that you believe and the quality of the
character and integrity of the people that are serving you.
And a lot of people may not be justice impacted,
but you know, if someone you know is justice impacted,
(09:11):
it makes a huge difference of whether your judge has
compassion and empathy for the people that they serve. This
is a service position.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Right absolutely, because I can't imagine that somebody who would
say those things are feel that way can be fair
when it comes to having to preside over anything.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
And we have to be very vigilant to make sure
that we know who we're voting for for judge and
justices for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So you can't watch the news, that means you don't
look at the Jasmine brand, Baller Alert, none of that.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
You don't know what's going on. I like that for you.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I try to shield myself from a lot of things
and really focus on my cases. You know, from time
to time, I'll watch reality TV show.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Get Out of Here? You watch can you say so
Love Island or so I have?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I have watched Love Island, only watching Selling Sunset in
my free time. So yes, I do try to engage
in reality TV show Love and Marriage Detroit just came
back on, So I'm going to try to catch that
I haven't been able to. But yeah, yeah, I will
engage in those things.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Okay, that's not going to have you based at all.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah, I just enjoy just entertainment.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
At times, you do have to separate work from personal
and because I'm sure that there's times when you leave work,
and how hard is it for you to to be
able to just relax, meditate.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And not think about work.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I have, over this last year and a half have
tried to adjust myself. And I used to think about
it as work life balance, but now I just think
about it as juggling, okay. And I know that I
have to be present in the moments that I'm in
and when one when I'm doing one thing something else,
(10:58):
another ball is dropping and I have to know that
and be okay with that. So when I'm at work,
I'm president at work. When I'm at home, I'm usually
you know, I'm mom. And so I'm trying to be
present in those moments.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
When you when did you realize that you wanted to
pursue being a Michigan Supreme Court justice?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
When did you realize that was your path?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah? So my path was not that I'm just this
ambitious thirty something. You're old. My congresswoman, Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence
now retired, but shout out to her. She actually asked
me to run in June of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Oh, she okay, they summoned you like they need to.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
They summoned me, and because I was her state representative,
she had seen the work. I'm very much do the
work behind the scenes. I even running for stay representative.
I was asked to do that, and I kind of
don't like saying that, but for women running for office,
usually we have to be asked and that's just the
reality of the situation. But anyway, she asked me, and
(11:56):
I said no. I said no multiple times. But then
but because I actually ended up getting pregnant and so
all of the things that you just talked about about the
societal expectations of you know, you can only do one
or the other. Those obviously those thoughts obviously creeped in.
But when my daughter was I was in my second
(12:18):
trimester and I just thought about what it would mean
for her and her Do I want her to continue
to grow up in a Michigan or in a nation,
in a world where there has never been a woman
on the Michigan a black woman on the Michigan Supreme Court,
or Am I going to try to be that representation
for her? And I chose to try.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Big Bolden, and I do want to say also, it
is a sacrifice, you know, to make, because, like you said,
you were asked to run for office, and people don't
understand how hard that is and how important it is, because,
as you said previously, representation matters. And we can be
really upset about laws that are happening and things like
(12:59):
bills that past or not passed, or things that we
feel like we need. But if we're not voting or
even encouraging people to run for office who we would
love to have represent us, then you're part of the
problem too. I always look at it as people can
complain all they went, but if you don't have somebody
that you're encouraging to run for office to represent you
and then getting on that campaign and standing behind them
(13:19):
or running yourself, if you feel like you can make
some change and you don't want to just talk and complain,
then you're part of the problem too.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, you know, as someone that was previously a legislator
in Michigan and someone that's on the Michigan Supreme Court currently,
and these are usually elected positions, I was appointed, but
I did run for the seat in twenty twenty two
and lost, and then it was appointed. I have seen
the depth and breadth of what it's like to be
an elected official and the decisions that they're making, literally
(13:47):
determining who gets funds, who lives, who dies, in some cases,
who thrives. It really makes a difference in who represents you.
It really does, and I've seen that up front, and
so at least for the judiciary branch, which goals under
the radar so often. I have just been trying to
(14:07):
be more transparent and showing my journey on social media,
and because it's so important to know who you're voting
for and that those people have your best interests at
hurt is.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Your goal one day to perhaps be on the Supreme
Court the United States.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
My goal is to get this election, thank you.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
My goal is to be retained from my seat on
November fifth and continue to serving the people of Michigan.
But you know, I am in my thirties. I'm thirty
six now, and you know there are a lot of
things that I hope to do, but I need to
make sure that one thing that's really important to me
is lifting as you climb, And so I know I
(14:51):
need to be in my position, but I also know
that I need to make sure that the next generation
of justices are being brought up. So that's what I'm
focused on.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And can we talk about some of the issues that
you have been championing, just so people know what you
stand for, because I also think it's important for people
when we go into vote. Sometimes also you're like looking
at stuff, but you may not even recognize some of
the names or know what's going on. So it's really
important to do your research. But I love to hear
from people firsthand of things they've actually accomplished, because there's
(15:19):
a lot of misinformation out there.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, well, I will take it back to my history. Yeah,
as a representative, so I was able to get five
bills passed into law in the Michigan Legislature while serving
in the minority. Most of those were criminal justice reforms.
So I was a part of the Medically Frail Bill
reform package, giving people parole for those that were deemed
(15:41):
medically frail. I was a part of the Amendment for
the Wrong Form Prisonment and Compensation Act, so giving more
people access to that fund if they're deemed to be
wrongfully convicted. And I was also a part of the
Address Confidentiality Act, which shields the addressed for survivors of
domestic violence in human trafficking so that their abusers can't
find them.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
These feel like givens, like.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
You would think you but as a Supreme Court justice,
I have been able to author eight majority opinions while
in my seat. Some of those have been related to
criminal issues, some of them have been related to election issues,
and so I really you know, all of this is public,
(16:25):
and I hate to get people more work, but at
least for me. You can go to the Michigan Supreme
Court website. You can see the issues that we've decided.
You can see who's been in the majority and who's
the scentic because.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
We don't always a yeah, absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
But you know, I have had a long history in
this space of service, and I'm very proud of my record.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Okay, there's so many things that I know I can't
ask you, so I won't do that here, because you know,
you just ran down a lot of things. And I've
heard people talk about, you know, bills they've passed or
being on the right side of things that checks they've
signed for things that they didn't even want to pass.
So it's just good to hear firsthand, because since I
people just make things up too.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Oh, I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
What do you think is the hardest part of your job?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Honestly, the hardest part of my job currently, or I
would say the first thing is the juggling. The Michigan
Supreme Court is a statewide campaign. Michigan is a huge state,
and I'm trying to get to everybody that I.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Shud is and I think sometimes we forget that.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
It's like because we think Michigan we're like, okay, Detroit,
but unicorn in Michigan.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, I think from one part of the state the
up all the way down to the bottom. You're talking
about in eight hour drive, right, So it's a huge
state and we're trying to get around to as many
people as possible. And I think we've been doing an
excellent job at that, but you know, it requires time
and I'll obviously making good decisions on the court and
(17:53):
then having a two year old at home, So the juggling,
But other than that, I will say uncovering and dismantling
the systemic barriers that caused me to be the first
black woman in the first place.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, it's crazy because people will act like saying oh,
it's so long ago. We all have an equal place
to start out now and pull you know, the pull
yourself up by your bootstafs.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So she did it, you can do it.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
But you see firsthand how there have been a lot
of obstacles put into place, things that we feel like
should be given that.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Aren't absolutely Absolutely. I'll ask simple questions and people will say,
you know, well, that's just how we've always done it. Well,
somebody like me wasn't at the table when it was done,
So we need to reevaluate what we're doing going forward. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I got to ask you, you know, you seem from
everything I know about your background and even how you
present today pretty fly.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
How did your husband bag you? I want to know
how he locked that in.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
So our story is we went to preschool, middle school,
high school together. We were not friends, we were not dating.
We went to the same college. We started dating.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
In college following me.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I mean, his parents lived around the corner from my parents,
so we would drive home together from college all the time,
and we became very very good friends. And you know,
one day when he just kind of looked at me
and he said, like, maybe we should date. I'm like, okay, right.
I knew him very very well. Our families, you know,
(19:24):
were so close, and we grew up together. So we
started dating. And then he actually went on to University
Trade Mercy Dental school and I went to the University
Traite Mercy Law school. So all of our graduations are
in common. Our lives have just been ordered together, and
it just we've just been together ever since. And so
(19:45):
that is how he bagged me. He had to stay
in my life and be pervasive online dating site.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
For you.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yeah, we've been together for a fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
That's so interesting that you didn't look at y'all didn't
look at each other like that at first, or maybe
he was always looking at.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
You like that.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
He claims that he wasn't, but he was. Well.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Listen for people who are listening to this right because
they can vote for you in the upcoming election.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
November November fifth, the last day.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's the last day.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
But we can vote early, Yes, you can vote early
in Michigan. You can vote by absentee. There's so many
different ways that you can vote now. So is the
last day all? Right?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
And what is most concerning and pressing to you right now?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
What are some of the issues for you that you're like, look,
these are things that I want to make sure it
can happen while I'm in my position.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, I want to make sure one that there are
there's a diversity in the Michigan Supreme Court and in
our judicial branch. As far as staffing is concern, that
is something that's very, very pressing because if you pull
from the same sources, you're going to get the same
(21:01):
the same people, and they really inform their judge or
justices on how to make rulings right, So it's important
to have your staff that's making that's doing the research
and helping to make good decisions. The other thing is
I'm working just really really hard and absorbing as much
knowledge as possible about the processes and procedures of the
(21:22):
court in order to make substantial changes to make it
easier for the next person coming after me. So that's
really really what I'm focused on. But other than that,
as far as cases coming up, it's no secret that
it's election time and so we have election cases those
are resolved at the Michigan Supreme Court if they have
to do with Michigan election law. But honestly, you know,
(21:46):
lesser known issues. We deal with everything. A lot of
people think we just do criminal or constitutional law. We
deal a termination of parental rights cases. Oh wow, we
deal with custody, we divorce issues.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
That's everyday life, every.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Day life that we're made and we're the last word
on it. And so a lot of people don't realize
how much we're affecting it are affecting them, but we do.
Every single day.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
We need you there. I just trying to get my job.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Absolutely, does it get real heated when you guys are
coming together, like.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
How does that? How does that look?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Usually it's very very cordial. We actually have lunch together.
Never heard that at the at the Michigan Supreme Court table.
We actually have lunch together once or twice a week.
So even though you know we may disagree on issues,
we try not to be disagreeable. Now we have have
(22:42):
We have had some heated discussions. My tolerance for it
is very very high because I was in the legislature
and there's nothing but disagreement. So I kind of just
sit back and listen to everybody. But yeah, there have
been some heated discussions at times.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I can imagine the perspective that you bring, like you said,
just for you all the things that they didn't have,
and so to have somebody come in there and say, okay,
well from my point of view and me being in
this position, this is why this is important. And some
things that people may not have thought of before.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Oh yeah, my colleagues, even though they've been on the
bench you know, a lot longer than me, in some cases,
sometimes they still turn me and say, what was the
legislature thinking Kiro.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
On this issue?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Because I know how the saucias just made so to
speak as far as how you know, the legislature thinks,
and so that's crucial to when we're interpreting law.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Well, Justice Bolden aka Big Bolden, we appreciate you so
much for coming through today.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I'm so glad we had a chance to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I've read about you on Essence when they highlighted you
as well, but just the work that you're doing. Thank
you so much, because, like I said, sometimes it could
feel like a thankless job, but we appreciate you. Yeah,
make sure remember you have to vote in Michigan. It's
so important to do that. Last message for anybody who's
like I'm going to sit this out. What would you say?
Speaker 3 (23:58):
You know, I don't know what to say to that,
because I just know so much. But don't give up
your power. Your vote is your power of who represents
you and what your quality of life will look like
wherever you are, So don't give up your power.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Don't be stupid, right, don't be stupid? All right, Well,
thank you so much. I appreciate it this way, Justice
Bolden
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Well
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