CZM Rewind: The White Wolf & White Guns for Hire

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hello everyone, Molly here, Welcome back to the second of
four installments of the holiday reruns here on Weird Little Guys.
Since Christmas and New Year's Day are both Thursdays this year,
I was going to have to run two reruns in
a row. Instead of picking two random reruns, I'm using

(00:30):
this opportunity to run my favorite mini series of the year,
the eight episodes I wrote back in the spring about
the international networks of right wing extremists who were trying
to hold onto a part time in South Africa. The
first two episodes popped up on Your Feet on Tuesday,
making this episodes three and four of that series. The

(00:51):
episodes The White Wolf and White Guns for Hire originally
aired on March twentieth and March twenty seventh. For this
section of the story, I don't really have an update
or a correction, but I do have more clues, more
information that sort of hints at possibilities I just can't
prove yet. When I first started digging into Monica Huggett Stone,

(01:17):
there was this curious claim that she was a member
of the American ku Klux Klan. And when I was
writing about this back in the spring, I went to
great lengths to try to figure out exactly what that
might mean. I found some interesting history involving a South
African anti Semite who claimed to be running a clan

(01:38):
group in South Africa a few years before Monica would
have been involved, and that helped a little bit. Gave
me some context, but it didn't actually directly connect her
to anything. It didn't explain how she became pen pals
with an American clansmen in the late nineteen seventies when
she was helping those Italian terrorists build that bomb in Johannesburg.

(02:03):
But in the months since, someone was kind enough to
send me a newspaper clipping, one I wish i'd had then.
This was a recurring theme throughout the series. I really
had to get creative in finding source material. It isn't
easy to find newspaper archives in another language from another
continent from decades ago. I found more than I expected,

(02:28):
but there were always gaps in my timeline that I
had a good feeling could be filled in if I
just had more access to South African newspapers from the
time period. And this clipping is exactly the kind of
thing that would have saved me like twenty hours of frustration.
In nineteen eighty one, Monica's mother told a reporter that

(02:51):
Monica had been corresponding with an American pastor for years
and the pastor's name was one do you know? It
was Robert Miles by the mid nineteen seventies, which seems
like it may have been when they started writing. Miles
no longer publicly claimed clan membership, but he had been

(03:15):
a grand Dragon in the Klan in Michigan in the past,
and even after he transitioned away from publicly identifying as
a klansman, he was still hanging out with klansmen, plotting
to blow up school buses to prevent integration in a
very clan like fashion, and writing essays that were published
in the inter Clan newsletter. What I'm saying is he

(03:38):
was still involved with the clan. So even though his
primary focus was his Christian identity church, he could very
well have been Monica's American Clan contact, And if he wasn't,
he was almost certainly her introduction to whichever Klansman it
was who did mail her that bomb making manual. Notably,

(04:00):
both Robert Miles and Monica Huggett were connected to the
American Ku Klux Klan in the nineteen seventies, and they
both ended up moving on to the Aryan Nations. Miles
died in nineteen ninety two, but in the nineteen eighties
he was a regional leader in the Aryan Nations. And
you know where this whole story started. When Monica moved

(04:21):
to the United States, she was a leading member of
the Aryan Nations group operating out of Louisiana. So those
are interesting parallel tracks, and it gives me just enough
to go on that I'm definitely going to have to
keep digging. I mean, I have to write about Robert

(04:42):
Miles eventually. Anyway. On August tenth, nineteen eighty nine, around
nine thirty pm, a white sedan pulled up outside the
United Nations Transition Assistance Groups Straitive headquarters in aut Yo,

(05:03):
a town in northern Namibia. It had what appeared to
be UN issued license plates and the United Nations emblem
was painted on the side, so perhaps it didn't look
out of place there at first. Initial reports say witnesses
saw three men dressed in green camouflage uniforms. The UN

(05:23):
Transition Assistance Group had arrived in Namibia four months earlier,
authorized by UN Resolution four thirty five. The resolution had
actually been adopted over a decade earlier, but it took
that entire decade to get all parties to come to
the table. The Transition Assistance Group was there to ensure
the ceasefire was honored, that South African troops would withdraw

(05:45):
from Namibia, and that the upcoming election would be free
and fair. Those first four months had not been without incident,
but a ceasefire was re established Over the summer. The
South African military was withdrawing s planned and UN officials
were making progress on disarming and disbanding the citizen militias
paid by the South African government. If things continued on

(06:08):
this path, it was looking good for the November elections.
But not everyone was on board with UN Resolution four
thirty five. One small group in particular, calling itself Axi
Kontra four three five Action against four thirty five, did
just what the name implies. They took action. When those

(06:32):
men in green camos stepped out of their car outside
the UN offices in Autyo that night, they opened fire
with automatic weapons hand grenades caused extensive damage to the buildings.
Both the administrative offices and the sleeping quarters. A security
guard named Michael Hoseg was killed in the attack, but

(06:53):
the men fled into the night without finishing the mission.
The entire cell was arrested fairly quickly, and authorities found
a massive arsenal of guns and explosives the group planned
to use in future attacks on United Nations targets with
the goal of stopping the upcoming elections. And those men

(07:14):
were in custody in November when the elections were held,
but they didn't stay there. They escaped. They'd failed to
prevent Namibian independence, but now the fight was in South Africa,
and they would do everything in their power to prevent
the end of apartheime. I'm Molly Conger, and this is

(07:39):
where the were guides. This is still the story of
Monica hugget'st the elderly South African woman who was living

(08:03):
in Mandeville, Louisiana, when she organized a series of nationwide
Nazi rallies in twenty twelve. But she isn't in this
part of the story because I can't tell you about
the international network of mercenaries she was organizing in nineteen
ninety four without telling you a little bit more about
some of those men, who they were and what they

(08:24):
were up to in the years leading up to that
deadly shootout with the police on the eve of the
South African elections. I know I don't have to make
excuses for this meandering narrative. It's my story and I'll
tell it the only way I know how. I never
know where we're going when I start putting my notes together,
and I really can't help but chase down this seemingly

(08:44):
infinite number of surprisingly deep rabbit holes. And I'm so
fascinated by this international network. It's come up a bit
in other stories. Dennis Mahon and Tom Metzger had close
ties with Heritage Front in Canada. In the early nineties,
Denis Mayhon flew to Germany to show German Neo Nazis

(09:06):
a good old fashioned American ku Klux clan cross burning,
and he gave fiery speeches stoking the flames of the
anti immigrant riots that were exploding across Germany at the time.
The week before Dennis started making that bomb that he
went to prison for, he'd been hanging out with an
Ulster Unionist who'd carried out bombings in Northern Ireland during

(09:26):
the troubles, British Holocaust denied David Irving traveled regularly to
the United States to network with American white supremacists. Frank
Sweeney joined the American Nazi Party in New Jersey as
a teenager and later joined the Rhodesian Army as a mercenary.
Members of American white supremacist groups like the Base Adam
Waffen and the Rise Above movement and its spinoff active clubs,

(09:50):
have a particular fondness for traveling to Ukraine to fight
with far right groups like the azof Battalion. Patriot Front.
Flags have popped up at neo Nazi marches and Poland,
and its members have met with leaders of foreign fascist
groups like the Nordic Resistance Movement in Sweden and Cossa
Pound in Italy. One of the young men arrested in
connection with the Terogram Collective was taken into custody at

(10:12):
the airport before he could board a flight to Ukraine
to join the Russian Volunteer Corps. The fascists, racists, and
anti Semites of the world are obsessed with borders, but
they don't seem to mind crossing them, So that's what
we're exploring. Here, and we'll find Monica again in the

(10:33):
next chapter of this story when she does a bit
of border crossing of her own, but that's not until
nineteen ninety four, and right now it's nineteen eighty nine.
In nineteen eighty nine, South Africa was still five years
away from ending apartheid, five years away from holding their

(10:53):
first election with universal suffrage, five years away from electing
Nelson Mandela as their first post of Parkment high president.
In nineteen eighty nine, Nelson Mandela was still in prison,
where he'd been since nineteen sixty two. But in nineteen
eighty nine, one of South Africa's neighbors was taking the
leap into multi racial democracy. Well. Whether or not South

(11:19):
Africa considered Namibia to be a neighboring country or a
country at all, depends on who you ask. The present
day nation of Namibia had been a German colony from
eighteen eighty four until nineteen fifteen. During World War One,
when everyone was a little preoccupied elsewhere, South Africa captured

(11:39):
the colony known as South West Africa. In nineteen sixty six,
the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution declaring that
South Africa no longer had a right to the territory,
but South Africa continued illegally occupying the area that the
United Nations now recognized as Namibia. The conflict lasted over
two decades. The South African Border War wasn't just about

(12:03):
South Africa's desire to extend apartheid into this colonial territory.
It was inextricably intertwined with other conflicts in the region,
things like the Angle and Civil War. It was a
modern consequence of the nineteenth century Scramble for Africa. It
was the unraveling of a century of colonialism. It was
fueled by Cold War anxiety about communist guerrilla forces and

(12:28):
Soviet influence. And it was about white anxiety. If Black
Africans were allowed to participate in government, if they were,
god forbid, allowed to rule their own nations, what would
they do with that power. The whole world got in
on the action, both officially, with major power sending material

(12:49):
support to their preferred parties and none officially, with independent
mercenaries and shadowy state sponsored operations popping up all over
Sub Saharan Africa. But by nineteen eighty nine it was
finally time. The border war was over and Namibia was
going to have free and fair elections in November. In

(13:10):
April of that year, peacekeeping forces from the United Nations
Transition Assistance Group arrived to oversee the process. Namibia was
going to be an independent nation, one without apartheid, and
this was a frightening prospect for those white South Africans
trying desperately to hold onto power in an increasingly unsustainable

(13:31):
form of government. Now, this next part might sound like
a conspiracy theory. I tried to tread waters like this
with immense care. I nearly drove myself to madness trying
to thread the needle of fact, fiction and question marks.
When I talked about the Oklahoma City bombing a while back,

(13:52):
and when I started poking around this particular history, I'll
admit I didn't have a lot of context. I don't
know the landscape here, so sorting fact from speculation and
sifting out the lies is a tricky prospect. And at
first I completely dismissed the idea that these neo Nazi

(14:12):
terrorists could have been acting on government orders. That's Tinfoil
had territory, right. I saw the idea heavily insinuated in
some reporting from the time period. An article published in
nineteen ninety, in an issue of Frei Vigblad, a South
African newspaper with an anti apartheid stance, opened with this

(14:33):
fairly explosive allegation. They are fugitives accused of murder. They
come from South Africa, Britain, Namibia and Zimbabwe. They have
one common characteristic. They left a trail of destruction, death
and bloodshed in Southern Africa over the past decade, but
cannot be prosecuted. They are among the most wanted men

(14:54):
in our neighboring states, but enjoy the protection of the
South African government because they have worked or still work
for the security forces. But that's not proof, right. Think
about how often you see similar sentiments expressed when it
comes to American far right groups. Allegations that this group
or that one or whichever prominent white supremacist leader hasn't

(15:17):
been prosecuted because they're being protected by the state. And
that's always a possibility, sure, but that doesn't mean it's true.
But some of those men would themselves later claim that
they couldn't be prosecuted for murders and bombings because they'd
been acting on government orders, And again that's not proof.

(15:40):
I've seen that before too. Sometimes people will say anything
to avoid responsibility, and that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
I'd been chugging along, accumulating sources and taking my notes,
translating old newspapers. I subscribed to several South African genealogical databases,
getting into the weeds here, all under the assumption that

(16:04):
there wasn't really a need to explore that angle. It
could be true, but it wasn't something I'd be able
to substantiate, And it's the kind of thing I'm not
comfortable exploring without something to hold on to. I don't
want to abuse your trust by speculating wildly and getting
reckless with the facts. But then I realized this is

(16:26):
a very unusual set of circumstances. Normally, a government would
never admit to state sponsored terrorism. They all do it,
but nobody admits it, and if you ever do prove it,
it's nothing short of a miracle. You need leaked documents
and deathbed confessions. But the South Africa of nineteen ninety

(16:47):
five wasn't really the same South Africa that had existed
until nineteen ninety four. This government wasn't admitting to its
own crimes the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was an unusually
transparent look at the nation's past, and they admitted it.
There is an entire chapter of the Truth and Reconciliation

(17:09):
Commission final report called secret State Funding. And according to
the report, Oxi Coontra four thirty five, the group behind
the attack at the UN offices in Autyo in nineteen
eighty nine, is believed to have been entirely a creation
of funded by the South African government. At least one

(17:30):
of the men involved was later confirmed to have been
an operative of the South African Civil Cooperation Bureau, an
odd name for what was essentially government sponsored death squads.
And I tell you that now so you can draw
your own conclusions later in the story when things get
a little murkier. So just keep that in the back

(17:52):
of your mind for now. It wasn't long after the
attack on Autio that members of Oxi Contra for thirty
five started getting arrested. Although the group's name disappears from
the conversation pretty quickly, the men who carried out that
attack were members of other groups too. Specifically, they were

(18:12):
all members of the Africaner Resistance movement. The AWB led
by Eugene terre Blanche. The first to be arrested were
two South African citizens, Arthur Archer and Craig Barker, and
a German mercenary named Horst Clens. South Africans Darrell stopped
Forth and Leonard Winendhal were arrested soon after. By October

(18:35):
of nineteen eighty nine, two months after the attack, and
out Yo five men had been arrested. Charges against Craig
Barker were dropped early on, and the charges against Arthur
Archer were dropped after he agreed to cooperate, And so
in December of nineteen eighty nine, it's just three Nandhl
Cleans and stop Foth were officially charged with murder in

(18:57):
a Namibian court. The courthouse was a three hour drive
from the prison where the men were being held. After
the hearing, Leonard Venadal asked to use the bathroom before
they were loaded back into the transport van to return
to their cells. And this is one of those moments
where it's useful to bear in mind that the Truth
and Reconciliation Commission names Leonard Venandal as a known operative

(19:20):
of the Civil Cooperation Bureau, those government sponsored death squads
and he's named as an operative of the CCB, specifically
in connection with these events in Namibia. So with that
in mind, Leonard Venandal goes to the bathroom of the
courthouse and he somehow knows to take the top off

(19:40):
the tank of a particular toilet. Someone had left him
a gift in there, a pistol, and he takes the
gun out of the toilet and he tucks it away
and allows himself to be placed back in the van.
About three quarters the way through the drive back to
the jail, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, the men

(20:00):
insisted that they just couldn't hold it any longer. They
needed to stop to go to the bathroom, and the
two Namibian police officers agreed. They pulled over and they
let their three prisoners out to pee on the side
of the road, and then suddenly another vehicle appeared. It
stopped and two men got out, and Vinadel produced the

(20:22):
pistol from his hiding place, and the two officers were
overpowered by the three prisoners and their two accomplices. Constable
Ricardo van Wick was shot on the stomach and later died.
The surviving officer was forced at gunpoint into the back
of the van, which the prisoners drove half an hour
off the main road before abandoning it. And then they disappeared,
and the vehicle driven by their accomplices, and they really

(20:58):
did disappear. Darrel stopped Forth, Leonard Fiennandal, and Horse Glens
had murdered a UN security guard and an Amibian police officer.
They were supposed to have gone on trial in Namibia,
but they vanished for a little while anyway. Just a
few short months later, both Leonard Fiennindal and Darrel Stopforth

(21:20):
came out of hiding. They were home in South Africa,
and South Africa had no extradition treaty with the newly
independent nation of Namibia. There were warrants for their arrest there,
but there was nothing anyone could really do. Nadal said
in a public statement a few months after his escape,
I have now returned to my family and I'm going

(21:40):
to devote myself full time to the cause as the
revolution is here. A photo of Venandal taken around that
time shows him wearing his AWB uniform and holding his
newborn son. He'd named the boy Daryl, presumably to honor
Darrel stop Forth, the man he'd just committed two murders
with and there's an odd thing I keep seeing these

(22:02):
guys do as I'm researching this story. They have this
strange fondness for giving interviews when they're supposed to be
in hiding on the run from the law. When it
was announced in September of nineteen eighty nine, a month
after the attack and out YO that Leonard Venadal had
been arrested, a reporter in South Africa came forward with
a pretty wild story. While Venondal had been on the run,

(22:27):
he'd taken the time to sit down for a two
hour interview with a reporter, and in that interview he
spoke openly about his membership in the AWB. That fact
alone wasn't really a secret. He was Eugene Tablanche's personal bodyguard,
and he was the leader of the Johannesburg branch of
the group. But he also claimed there had been a

(22:47):
split within Aquala, the militant arm of AWB, with some
members openly declaring their willingness and intent to die for
the cause, forming a sort of Kamakazi unit that planned
to carry out high profile assassinations. He also showed the
reporter a small circular placard of sorts with a picture

(23:10):
of a wolf. The reporter Yu hung Kus just looked
at it with disbelief, and he said, there's no such
thing as the White Wolves, and vin ad all smiled
at him and replied, believe me, they exist. The White

(23:31):
Wolves probably didn't exist, not really, not then anyway, not
in any way that really means anything. I guess they
kind of did, in the sense that if someone were
to carry out a series of bombings and then call
the newspaper to say that the White Wolves did it,
you sort of retroactively created the idea of a group

(23:55):
that could be imagined to exist, because Venadel would later
be connect to an attempt to do just that. But
by most accounts, the White Wolves wasn't a terrorist organization
that actually existed. But in September of nineteen eighty nine,
as he's sitting there with this reporter from the Sunday Times,

(24:18):
everyone in South Africa had heard of the White Wolf,
at least in the singular. Earlier that year, a former
policeman who called himself the White Wolf had been sentenced
to death. He was a former policeman because he'd been
dismissed a year earlier. After opposing for a photo holding

(24:39):
the severed head of a black man who had died
in a gruesome car accident. He tried to submit the
photo for publication in a police magazine, but they declined
to publish it. He'd joined a to w B at
just sixteen, with his father's support and encouragement. He'd been
sentenced to die for something he did. November of nineteen

(25:01):
eighty eight, one afternoon, a twenty three year old named
Baron Stredam put on his custom belt buckle engraved with
the words white wolf and Afrikaans. He barked his car
near a busy city square in downtown Pretoria, and he
got out, and he started walking, and then he started shooting.

(25:23):
On the day of the massacre, he just walked for
several blocks, just shooting black people at random. He murdered
eight people and wounded sixteen others, and every survivor says
the same thing. He smiled the entire time. Bradley Stein

(25:46):
was just seventeen years old that day and he was
on his way home from rugby practice when he saw Stridum.
He didn't understand at first what he was looking at.
This man with a gun must be a police officer.
He must be trying to catch a bad guy. But
then he saw Stridem walk up to an old woman
carrying groceries, and without saying a word, Stritem shot her

(26:09):
in the head. At that moment, a black teenager called
out to stein beckoning him over to the bench he
was hiding behind, and the two teens hid behind the
bench together, but Stridum found them. He shot the black boy.
As Steyne, who's white, cradled this bleeding stranger in his lap.

(26:29):
He looked up at Stridam and asked him why.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Then I turned up to him and I said, who
com duniate that? Why are you doing this? And he said,
agduned it for it two cooms for we sight africananners,
which means I'm doing this for the future of white
South Africans.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Stridum never fired at a white person. The shooting only
stopped when a black taxi driver named Simon Mucondeley tapped
Stritum on the shoulder while he was reloading. He must
have caught the killer off guard because as Stridem turned round,
Mucondeley was able to grab the gun out of his hands.
As I was reading about Stridem's murders. It felt so

(27:16):
familiar to me. I've read accounts of a lot of
mass shootings. I've seen videos I wish I could forget.
I've wasted countless hours reading manifestos, and there are plenty
of similarities between white supremacist mass shootings. There are a
lot of common denominators when it comes to a young

(27:37):
white man who carries out a racist mass shooting. But
this felt so terribly, eerily familiar to me. It was inescapable.
It felt just like the Charleston church shooting. It felt
like Dylan Rufe. And back in twenty fifteen, several South

(27:59):
Africa journalists covering that story that American shooting referred to
Dylan Rufe as America's white Wolf. So I guess I'm
not alone in that feeling. We talked briefly last week
about the apartheid era South African flag patch in photos
of roof taken shortly before he murdered nine people at

(28:20):
the Emmanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in twenty fifteen, So
we know he had a fondness for apartheid. But I
wonder if he was familiar with the white wolf. So
in Venadel is sitting there with this reporter showing him
this little picture of a wolf. This is what he's

(28:41):
talking about. He's telling the reporter that he's a member
of this extremely militant, violent arm of the AWB, that
they're planning to get a race war going before Christmas,
and he really wants the paper to run a story
that will convince people that there are hundreds more Barren
Stritums out there lying in wait. And the reason the

(29:03):
reporter didn't believe him is because it had been discussed
extensively during Stritem's trial just a few months earlier. There
was no reason to believe any actual group called the
White Wolves existed. He was a member of AWB, that
was fairly certain, but when it came to the White Wolves,
it appeared to just be a pack of one. Fienandal

(29:27):
was maybe just planting seeds of propaganda. He was trying
to capitalize on this intense fear and trauma surrounding Stritem's
murders by convincing people it could happen again at any time.
But Leonard Fiennindal had been telling the truth about at
least one thing when he spoke to that reporter before

(29:47):
his arrest, there had been some splintering within the African
or Resistance movement, members of AWB had started forming increasingly
violent breakaway groups, groups like the Orde van de Dude,
which translates to the Order of Death, and the Order
Borofolk the Order of the Boer People. And that name

(30:09):
might sound familiar. A violent fascist group calling itself the
Order we heard that one before its founder would later
say that he'd never actually heard of Robert J. Matthews,
the American neo Nazi who founded a group called The
Order in nineteen eighty three. It seems both men arrived
at the name independently, but for the exact same reason.

(30:32):
It was the name of the fictional white supremacist organization
in William Luther Pierce's novel The Turner Diaries. And you
might remember the name of the man who founded the
South African version of the Order. Remember last week we
were talking about the trial of Massimo Bolo and Fabio Miriello,
the Italian fascist convicted of the vit Commando bombings in

(30:53):
nineteen eighty. As the two men were led into the
court room on the first day of their trial, one
man and the gallery stood up and applauded for the bombers,
and that man was Pritorious City councilor Pete Rudolph, And
so by this point in our timeline, Rudolph is a
high ranking member of the africaner resistance movement the AWB,

(31:16):
and Pete Rudolph maintains to this day that he founded
the Order in nineteen eighty nine with the knowledge and
blessing of AWB's leader, Eugene taire Blanche, specifically so that
AWB members could engage in more violent resistance without risking
AWB itself being sanctioned or banned. And if that's true,

(31:40):
it's actually quite similar in that respect to the group
of the same name in the United States. When Robert
Matthews founded the Order, he did so with the knowledge
and blessing of William Luther Pierce, announcing the formation of
the group in a speech at the annual meeting of
Pierce's National Alliance. And National Alliance benefited Ida theologically and

(32:01):
financially from the Order's crimes, but they had the plausible
deniability of having no formal affiliation with the group. Just
like Pierce a National Alliance, Terre Blanche and the AWB
could sit back and enjoy the political benefit of their
orders act of terror without the risk of appearing to

(32:21):
have authorized them. The Order Boro Folk was definitely founded
and led by Pete Rudolph, but press clippings over the
years occasionally name other men as the group's leader. At
one point, Nick Stridem, the father of mass murderer Baronstretem,
is quoted as the head of the Order. In nineteen

(32:44):
ninety four, a South African TV news program aired an
interview with a man claiming to be the leader of
the Order. I was perhaps as surprised as Pete Rudolph
was to see Leonard Wienendahl staring back at me from
the screen. Rudolph would later tell them Truth and Reconciliation
Commission that Venandal had appointed himself as chief of staff

(33:05):
of the Order without his permission, and that such a
position didn't even exist. And he called Venandal quote a
man fond of publicity with strong national socialist inclinations. And
he scoffed at the very idea that he would have
let Venondal lead anything, disparagingly referring to Venondal's habit of

(33:28):
appearing in public in a khaki uniform, saying I despise
a khaki uniform. Let me tell you, because khaki is
the color of the British. But I guess the fashion
police unit of the Nazi terror squad is really neither
here nor there. No one denies Vnondal was a member
of the Order. In fact, when Venondal, Cleans and stop

(33:51):
Forth had escaped from custody in Namibia, it had been
the Order who picked them up on the side of
the road there next to the still bleeding policeman. The
man driving their getaway car was Rudolph's chief deputy, Hank Bradenhan.
Rudolph claims the Order was formally established in October of
nineteen eighty nine, but they didn't announce their presence to

(34:14):
the world until February of nineteen ninety, when a small
group of quote suspicious looking white men vandalized the British
embassy in Pretoria. Witnesses saw them walk up to the
embassy gates and spray paint in Afrikaans. The struggle begins
and they signed the statement order. Borofolk police looked at

(34:38):
the graffiti and said they'd never heard of the group.
One member spoke anonymously with the press and said they
were allied with the White Wolves. In April of nineteen ninety,

(35:05):
the Order Boro folk took its first big step. Pete
Rudolph organized and led a raid on a South African
Air Force base. Carried out in collaboration with three young
A Tobb sympathizers within the Air Force. Order members, including
Leonard Wienendahl, stole a busload of guns and ammunition from
the South African Defense Force. Rudolph called the Pretoria News

(35:26):
while on the run to take credit for the heist,
saying it was time for war. Quote. I have now
crossed the rubicon. The boar now have a chance to
arm themselves. We are now going for the a n
c's throat. And keep those guns in the back of
your mind too, I'll remind you, but one of those

(35:48):
guns shows back up. In June, Rudolph recorded a half
hour long video declaring war against the government, and he
mailed copies to several New Use outlets as well as
other right wing groups. I could only find a short
clip of it. I don't know why it looked so
hard for the full video. It wouldn't have done me

(36:10):
any good. It's all in Afrikaans, but still frames from
the video show Rudolph sitting at a desk flanked by
masked men carrying rifles they'd stolen from the military, and
the message was part press release, part warning, part call
to action. He's speaking to a variety of audiences here

(36:30):
and for his fellow African or nationalists. His message was
pretty simple. It's not time to talk anymore and it
is quote better to die in glory than to live
in disgrace. Within days of this video's release, the bombs
started going off. In late June and early July of

(36:53):
nineteen ninety, bombs went off every night. A bomb went
off on a bust terminal in Johannesburg injuring nearly thirty people.
Bombs went off at both the home and business belonging
to Clive Gilbert, a Johannesburg City councilor who was both
Jewish and a member of the Democratic Party. That same week,

(37:13):
a synagogue in Johannesburg was bombed and defaced with swastika's
and pro apartheid slogans. The office of the National Union
of Mine Workers, a radical black labour organization, was destroyed
by a bomb that went off overnight. A bomb blew
out the windows of the offices of the anti apartheid
weekly newspaper Freivigblad, and the homes and offices of several

(37:35):
members of the ruling National Party were targeted as well,
accompanied by warnings that President de Clerk must stop all
efforts to adopt moderate reforms. And then the phone calls came.
Two phone calls to the offices of a pro government newspaper.
The first caller spoke English, not Afrikaans. A day later,

(37:59):
a second call came to the same paper, and this
caller spoke Afrikaans, but he used the code word the
reporter had given the previous caller to ensure he was
speaking with the same group. Both callers told the newspaper
that the White Wolves were responsible for the bombings and
that the bombings would continue if their demands weren't meant.

(38:21):
Their primary demand was pretty straightforward. They wanted President de
Clerk to call an election. His moves towards reform and
concessions and negotiations with the ANC, and his recent release
of Nelson Mandela. These things were unacceptable, and they wanted
the opportunity to elect a better white president. But the

(38:42):
group had two other strangely specific requests. They wanted the
White Wolf himself, Baron Stridam, released from prison, and they
wanted the police to call off the man hunt for
Pete Rudolph, who was at this time still on the
run after claiming responsibility for stealing all those guns from

(39:02):
the military and then sending the government a videotaped declaration
of war. But like I said, the White Wolves almost
certainly didn't exist, not in nineteen ninety, not as an
actual organized group, whatever that means for a group that

(39:24):
didn't exist, though they were very busy in nineteen ninety.
In February, shortly after Nelson Mandela was released from prison,
letters threatening to assassinate him were received by newspapers and
those letters were signed the White Wolves. In May, when
President Declark announced another round of apartheid reforms, including the

(39:46):
repeal of the law that segregated libraries, the White Wolves
put out a press release warning the president to watch
his back. In May of nineteen ninety, three black activists
with the African National Congress were run off the road
by two white men. Prince Makina and Simon Koba were murdered,
but Xavier Likuote survived to testify. He says, before one

(40:11):
of the white men started shooting at them. He'd ask
if they'd heard of the White Wolves, Lekuote said, he
replied that he had, and just before opening fire, the
man looked down at them and said, I'm going to
show you just who the White Wolves are. And now
in July, the White Wolves are claiming responsibility for most,

(40:33):
though not all, of the bombs that had been going
off every night for a week. It's possible that some
of the other incidents involving people claiming to be the
White Wolves were just people doing what Leonard Binendal had
done with that reporter. They were pretending they were acting
on their own or in connection with some other group.
But they liked the way it sounded to say they

(40:55):
were the White Wolves. They understood the kind of fear
it would inspire and the kind of plausible deniability it
would give their actual group affiliation for whatever they'd done.
And more importantly, they wanted to honor the White Wolf
Baron Stredam. I see a lot of parallels here between
the way Stritam's murders so quickly achieved this almost religious

(41:19):
significance and the way modern terogram culture canonized his mass shooters.
I didn't realize they'd been doing that for so many decades.
I don't know that it was ever conclusively proven who
was actually behind every instance of someone claiming to be
the White Wolves, but in at least one of those
cases we knew exactly who it was. The men who

(41:44):
murdered Prince Makina and Simon Koba in May of nineteen
ninety was Peter Grinevald, son of General Teeny Gunivald, South
Africa's head of military intelligence. Peter Garnivald fled the country
after the murders, and he spent years hiding in Portugal.
When he was finally brought to justice, he testified that
at the time of the murders, he had been an

(42:05):
employee of the Civil Cooperation Bureau, just like Leonard Vinendal.
I'm not sure with conclusion to traw here, but the
only two people I can say with conclusive proof were
telling people that the White Wolves were real. Both turned
out to be members of state sponsored death squads. But

(42:31):
when it comes to those bombings in July, the police
knew it wasn't the White Wolves because they knew it
was members of the AWB, And we know more specifically
that it was members of the closely aligned splinter group,
the Order Borofolk. There are a lot of reasons why
we know that to be true, but just in case,

(42:53):
here's Pete Rudolph himself saying it in an interview. Last year.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
We blew up National Party offices, we attacked some of
the trade unions and it was becoming an open war.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
And this was under the flag of the Order Bouervont.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Under the older Budafowk, which were started on the tenth
of October eighteen eighty nine in Connivence and with the
assistance of the AWB.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
All three of the men who bombed those un offices
in Namibia in nineteen eighty nine had reappeared in South
Africa by mid nineteen ninety, and all three were actively
involved in the Order's bombing campaign that summer. And when
the police started making arrests in July of nineteen ninety,
Horst Cleans, Darryl Stopped Fourth and Leonard Fienendal were three

(43:59):
of the ten men pained and connection with the bombings.
All ten of those men had ties to AWB. Several
would later testify that they'd also been members of the
Order of Death, a group that required members to commit
a random, unprovoked murder as an act of initiation. Now,
I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't know what

(44:23):
happened next. I tried so hard to sort this out.
I love a day by day timeline, but I think
there are a lot of factors complicating things here. I mean,
first of all, it was thirty five years ago. Not
every piece of news has been archived and digitized, and
there's probably reporting out there that I just can't access.

(44:44):
And there are still the issues I talked about last
week when it comes to locating source material in a
foreign language with naming conventions and cultural contexts that I
just don't have. I've noticed a surprisingly casual attitude towards
spelling and nick names. I mean, it was incredibly common
across all of my sources for this story for someone's

(45:06):
name to be spelled a handful of different ways, pretty interchangeably,
sometimes even within the same article. And it seems like
it might be normal in Afrikaans to refer to a
particular individual using their full name or just their first
and middle initial with their last name or some kind
of nickname, even in very formal writing, again totally interchangeably.

(45:30):
It took me a week to realize that KOs is
a nickname for Jacobis, and one guy might be written
about both ways, from sentence to sentence. I don't know,
maybe this is cultural. I have no idea, but it
really complicates the process of looking for information. I've also
noticed dates are often wrong. I mean a lot, like

(45:54):
markedly provably wrong, just not consistent from source to source,
sometimes just offering information that isn't possible. I mentioned last
week that some of the dates in the Truth and
Reconciliation Report are definitely not correct. Things like the year
the Wit commando trials took place are pretty easy to

(46:14):
corroborate with newspaper archives, and it happens over and over again.
The bombing of the Frei vik Blot office is widely
reported in later sources to have occurred in nineteen ninety one.
The paper's own editor, Max Duprees, even puts the date
as nineteen ninety one in his memoirs, but that's not true.

(46:36):
He spoke to a reporter from the London Times about
the bombing the day after it happened in July of
nineteen ninety and Duprees writes in his book that Leonard
Wienendhal had confessed to having planted that bomb, which again
could not have happened in nineteen ninety one because Leonard
Venendal was in prison in nineteen ninety one, and the

(46:58):
confession in question is actually very well documented because Venondal
would later testify before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that
he'd only confess to that bombing because police interrogators had
electrocuted his testicles in July of nineteen ninety So sorting
out a day by day timeline, which is again my

(47:19):
preferred strategy, really just wasn't possible here. There is no
consistently reliable source when it comes to when a particular
event actually happened. And I'm not gidding about that the
bit about Venendal claiming to have been tortured. He applied
to testify before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, not as

(47:41):
a perpetrator, but as a victim. He offered testimony about
abuse he'd suffered after his arrest in July of nineteen ninety.

Speaker 6 (47:52):
I then experienced being shocked. Then the current would come
through my leg, knew my arm, but stand through my gentiles.
Sometimes they would come all free together while this was going,
he shouted at me. Why don't I call my God
to release me from the chain.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
That clip comes from one of the weekly hour long
broadcasts that aired every Sunday from nineteen ninety six through
nineteen ninety eight. Every week South Africans could tune in
for the Truth and Reconciliation Special Report, a compilation of
clips from the hearings that was presented by Max Dupries,
the newspaper editor whose office Mean and All admitted to bombing,

(48:40):
and Duprez ends that segment of the show with his
own commentary.

Speaker 7 (48:47):
I'm looking forward to mister Finnandahl's amnesty education hearing, and
perhaps our Departments of Justice and Foreign Affairs owe the
public and explanation why he has not been sent back
to Namobia to stand trial.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
But back to the question of the missing facts, Perhaps
the biggest factor here is that some of this information
just isn't there to find. And I don't mean it's
missing from the archives. I mean it doesn't exist. These
final years of the apartheid regime were chaotic. Someone might

(49:21):
get arrested for terrorism and then there just isn't ever
any follow up. I may be searching for answers that
aren't there, because sometimes cops would round up a bunch
of guys and put a story in the newspaper, and
then I don't know, they just aren't in jail anymore,
and there's never any more to the story. Sometimes people

(49:42):
escaped two members of the Order Bora Folk definitely did.
And sometimes people were quietly released because they secretly worked
for the government. And during this time period especially, the
government had a strategy of politically targeted am As part
of this effort to cool tensions and advanced negotiations, there

(50:06):
were these occasional releases of political prisoners. They just pick
a few guys on both sides of the conflict and
let them go. And unlike the later, more organized and
thoughtful process of granting amnesty through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, this,
at least to me, I could be wrong here, but

(50:26):
this looked a little haphazard. It doesn't look like these
early nineties amnesty releases really involved any sort of long
process of thoroughly accounting for what actually happened and documenting
the specifics and getting statements on the record, getting people
to admit what they'd done. They just sort of let

(50:47):
people go and one of the more egregious instances of
this was the release of Baron Stretum in nineteen ninety two.
The men who laughed as he shot pedestrians at random
had served just four years, and the release of political
prisoners was a part of the ongoing negotiations between the

(51:09):
National Party administration and the African National Congress. Both sides
were getting some of their people out of prison, and
the A and C seemed generally supportive of the strategy,
but not when it came to Barons Stritum. Cyril Ramaposa,
the current President of South Africa, was the A and
C General secretary back in nineteen ninety two, and he

(51:30):
issued their statement condemning the decision. Our prisoners will not
go out and commit these acts again, he said. But
there's no guarantee that the prisoners who hate black people
will not come out and shoot more black people. Baron
Stretum didn't carry out another mass shooting after his release,
not that I'm aware of, but he did continue to

(51:50):
support and encourage far right violence. Shortly after his release.
Australian journalist Alan Hogan interviewed Stridam about the murders. Camera
not in a studio or his living room. No, the
interview took place as the pair walked together along the
path that Stridam had taken that day, and he's pointing

(52:13):
out the locations each spot where he took a human life,
and he's laughing, and he enthusiastically agrees that, Yeah, if
you gave me a gun right now, I do it again, Rock.

Speaker 7 (52:30):
Then then I say shut another one here. That's three,
so that's free so far. You see these couple of
bucks sitting here now, yeah, would you like to shut
them another another time?

Speaker 2 (52:54):
All that to say, the early nineties were a little chaotic,
So I'm come saying, I just don't know why. It
looks like no one was ever charged for those bombings
in July of nineteen ninety. I can tell you for
certain that ten members of the Order were arrested in
the summer of nineteen ninety after that series of bombings.

(53:17):
One was released after he agreed to cooperate to escape,
and Leonard Wienendal Darrel stopped Forth and Horst Cleans were
in jail, originally held in connection with the bombings for
violations of Section twenty nine of the Internal Security Act,
and they seemed to stay in jail for quite a while.

(53:38):
No charges were ever actually filed against them for those
bombings in South Africa, but while they were in custody,
the newly independent nation of Namibia filed a petition to
have them extradited to face trial for those murders. In
nineteen eighty nine. The Truth and Reconciliation Report notes in
passing that they were never interviewed by Nimbia authorities during

(54:00):
this time period. It doesn't say why, if they asked
and weren't given permission, or if they just never asked.
And I do have articles that were published in nineteen
ninety and nineteen ninety one that seemed to indicate they
remained in continuous custody throughout this time, But after those

(54:21):
first few months, the articles stopped mentioning why they'd been
arrested in the first place, and they only refer to
the fact that they're still being held pending a determination
about extradition. By July of nineteen ninety one, a year
after they were arrested, both Vinendhal and Cleans were reportedly
dangerously ill from an ongoing hunger strike, along with other
incarcerated members of the Order Bfolk. They were political prisoners.

(54:45):
They said they'd only carried out the orders of the state.
They can't be prosecuted for that, and they said they
would continue their hunger strike until their demands were met.
News stories show Fienandl was on a hunger strike as
early as January of ninety one and as late as
August of ninety two, So that can't have been continuous

(55:06):
because he's still alive. But for about two years, I
can place him in jail and he's going on intermittent
hunger strikes to protest this continued detention. In April of
nineteen ninety two, a South African judge did rule that
the Autio three could be extradited to Namibia. Stop Fourth
and Venandal tried to appeal that ruling, but horse Glen's

(55:29):
wasn't really participating. He just kind of disappeared, and when
they were all released on bond in December of nineteen
ninety two to await this final ruling, he disappeared entirely.
It would take another four years, but in nineteen ninety six,
the Minister of Justice finally signed the extradition order. Horst

(55:50):
Glens was otherwise engaged by Van He was serving time
for the plot we'll cover next week. But Darrell stop
Fourth and Leonard Venondal were ordered to surrender themselves for
extradition to Namibia, but they didn't. I can't figure out
where Darryl stopped Fourth ended up. I tried, but I
know exactly where Leonard Venendall is because just as he

(56:14):
was due to present himself to the authorities to be extradited,
he stole a car, crossed the border and flew to
the United Kingdom. Some reporting says he initially entered the
United Kingdom using a false passport, probably because he was
on Inner Poll's most wanted list, and that he didn't
try to claim asylum until after he was caught, but

(56:36):
it's unclear. The man that Eugene Tareblanche used to affectionately
refer to as my little fanatic settled down with his
family in Wisbeck, a town about one hundred miles north
of London. He's the chair of the Wisbeck Rugby Club
and his wife Tracy, is the treasurer. The payday loan

(56:56):
company he started after moving to England went into liquidation
a few years ago. I'm not really familiar with how
anything works in the UK, and I really don't know
how you could bankrupt a business that's pure extortionate profit,
but that is what the paperwork appears to show. There's
been a handful of articles over the years asking why
Leonard Wienandal was allowed to enter and remain in the

(57:18):
United Kingdom. In two thousand and three, a reporter tracked
him down in his home in Wisbec, and Searchlight magazine
would later report that Vnandal allegedly attacked the reporter, grabbing
him and slamming him up against a wall, shouting, you're
going to find yourself in a very negative position. Subsequent
attempts to write articles about Venondal don't contain quotes from him.

(57:42):
He and his wife are South African citizens born in
South Africa. There's no evidence he actually applied for political asylum.
Corporate filings for his bankrupt paid a loan company list
his nationality as South African, which, again, knowing nothing about
British business zoom, means he did not seek British citizenship.

(58:04):
So the UK is just willingly harboring a man who
still wanted for two murders in Namibia. International extradition law
can be a bit tricky, but ultimately even if they
couldn't or don't want to extradite him to Namibia, why
is he still in the UK. They could deport him
back to South Africa, and presumably the South African government

(58:28):
would finish what they started in nineteen ninety and send
him to Namibia. In February of this year, as Donald
Trump started parroting white nationalist talking points about South Africa,
Mihnandhl made a flurry of online posts praising the American President,
writing in one post last month, thank you President Donald J. Trump,

(58:51):
not only for hearing the plight of my people, the
poor africaners, but for boldly stepping up to stand with
them in their hour of need and face of adversity.
Jimmy Carter died in December. Bvenandal posted he just died,
so we're supposed to pretend he's a saint. But Carter
was instrumental in killing the free, prosperous state of Rhodesia.

(59:13):
Like I said, I can't tell you whatever became of
Darrell stop fourth, but we'll pick back up next week
with horsed cleans. He was released from the South African
jail in nineteen ninety two, pending a decision on whether
or not he could be extradited to Namibia. Unlike stop
fourth in Biennondal, he doesn't seem to have participated in

(59:33):
the legal battle to appeal that decision. He went underground,
and he doesn't resurface again until nineteen ninety four, when
he's arrested again, this time after a shootout with the
South African police that left one of his young German
mercenaries dead. And that's where we'll find the woman who

(59:55):
set me down this long, strange path. It was Monica
Huggett who was graciously playing host for those foreign mercenaries.

(01:00:24):
In early March of nineteen ninety four, three men left
the Bosnian city of Siroki brieg German mercenaries Falk Semang
and Ralph Moracas were eager for a change of scenery,
not because they had tired of their lives as soldiers
of fortune, but because they were in a bit of
hot water after murdering two of their fellow mercenaries, and

(01:00:48):
Ronald Doyster, a Dutch mercenary they'd worked with on his
last stint with the Croatian forces, was happy to recruit
them to a new mission, one far away from the
mess they'd made in the Balkans. Before they left, they
took a few souvenirs, a couple of AK forty sevens,
one pistol, eight kilos of semtex, a plastic explosive, and

(01:01:13):
a crate of hand grenades. They stashed the stolen weapons
under the seats of the old Citron that Doyster was driving.
Doyster was no stranger to committing crimes across borders. He'd
been a soldier for hire for over a decade and
had served a bit of time in Ireland for arms smuggling.
He was confident that his expertly forged un press credentials

(01:01:36):
were all they'd need to ensure a clean getaway without
anyone searching the vehicle, and he was right. After driving
nearly two thousand kilometers, they reached their first destination, the
Belgian city of Roussillara. There they met with Roger Spinewen,
the leader of a Belgian Neo Nazi group called the

(01:01:58):
Order of Flemish Militants. He was a bit of a
legend in certain circles. He was already an old man,
but in the seventies he'd led a small group of
Belgian Nazis in a daring heist of sorts, successfully stealing
the corpse of a long dead Nazi priest from his
grave in Austria to be reinterred on his home soil

(01:02:19):
in Belgium. And on that day in March of nineteen
ninety four, Spinewin paid Douster eleven thousand Deutsche marks for
the stolen weapons, but he gave him one more thing directions.
It had been Spinewen who had asked Deuster to return
to Bosnia this one last time, not as a mercenary

(01:02:40):
this time, but to fetch hardware and recruits for a
new mission, one in South Africa. The Aeging Neo Nazi
had spent his life fighting for fascism At home in Belgium.
His son John was a member of parliament as a
leader in the far right party of Vlam's Bloc. World

(01:03:00):
continued to change around him. He hoped to retire one
day in a beautiful white Ethno state in Southern Africa.
Here on the eve of the end of apartheid, though
that dream was starting to look less and less likely,
unless they could incite enough violence in those final months
to convince the white population of South Africa that they

(01:03:23):
needed to secede to form a new pure white nation,
and this was the task he'd recruited these mercenaries for.
It wasn't safe to depart directly from Belgium, the authorities
there were already a little suspicious. Instead, the mercenaries took
the ferry across the English Channel to Ramsgate, a seaside

(01:03:46):
town in Kent. There, with an introduction from Spinowin, they
made their next contacts, members of the British fascist group,
the League of Saint George. They spent a few days
there making final preparations for their journey with the help
of their new English friends. This was becoming something of
a routine for the members of the League of Saint George.

(01:04:09):
Just two months earlier, they'd hosted another batch of German
mercenaries making the same trip. They didn't know just yet
that one of those men was already dead. On the
evening before Doyster and the Germans were scheduled to fly
out of Heathrow, Roger Spinowen dispatched one of his sons
to Ramsgate with one final message for the mercenaries. Willie

(01:04:33):
Spinowen handed Ronald Doyster a sealed envelope and passed along
his father's order, Doyster was to personally hand deliver this
envelope to the woman who would meet him at the airport,
a woman named Monica hugget I'm Molly Conger and this

(01:04:55):
is weird, little guys. This is the part of the
story where we finally rejoined the woman we started with,

(01:05:18):
Monica Huggett Stone. It's been a long, strange journey. We
started out a few weeks ago in twenty twelve, in Sacramento, California,
American neo Nazis from the Golden State Skinheads were rallying
outside the state capitol holding the flag of apartheid South

(01:05:38):
Africa when counter protesters from a nearby occupy encampment showed
up to heckle them. What an odd site, those skinheads
in their black jackets rallying for the imaginary cause of
a white genocide against South African farmers. That rally was
one of more than a dozen simultaneous rallies across the

(01:05:58):
United States that day, though they were mostly poorly attended
and some were barely publicized, and all of them were
organized by a short lived Aryan Nations affiliated group called
the South Africa Project, and that group itself was almost
certainly really just two people, a long time Arian Nations

(01:06:21):
member named Maurice Goulette and a mysterious woman in Louisiana
named Monica Stone. I'm always surprised by the twists and
turns that these stories take. Once you start turning over
a few rocks, there's always some bizarre new ankle that
takes us miles from where I thought we were going.

(01:06:43):
But this one has been the strangest ride of any
weird little guy so far. In this chapter of the story,
we'll try to trace the paths of these European mercenaries
from Bosnia to South Africa. It turns out there was
an international network to funnel guns for hire from one

(01:07:04):
conflict to another, And as cloak and dagger as all
of that sounds, it wasn't really a secret, not entirely.
Searchlight magazine had reported on the scheme months before Those
German mercenaries even bought their plane tickets. Every year for

(01:07:26):
decades now, European Neo Nazis gather in the Belgian city
of Dixmude for an international fascist get together, and at
the event in nineteen ninety three, there was a lot
of talk about changing their focus about redirecting mercenaries from
the Balkans to South Africa, and plans were made. At

(01:07:49):
least fifteen mercenaries were pledged to be dispatched in early
nineteen ninety four with plans to fight alongside Robert vent
Honter's Boristock Party. All of this was published in print
in English in the fall of nineteen ninety three, months
before this actually happened. That same publication, Searchlight magazine, would

(01:08:14):
eventually uncover more of the details about what went on
at Dixmuda in nineteen ninety three. It was at this
summit that Roger Spinwin recruited Ronald Doyster to return to
Bosnia to recruit more mercenaries for South Africa, and according
to another source, it was also sometime in late nineteen
ninety three that Roger Spinwin paid a visit to South

(01:08:37):
Africa himself at the invitation of Monica Huggett. I mentioned
a few weeks ago that the first step in tracking
this Monica Stone, the one who organized those rallies in
twenty twelve, back to her home country of South Africa,
was figuring out her maiden name, which is Huggitt, and

(01:08:59):
I did that by digging up old corporate filings for
a Christian identity church called the New Christian Crusade Church.
And the New Christian Crusade Church was run by a
man named James k Warner. I don't think Warner necessarily
qualifies as a big name, but he shows up in
a lot of big stories. He was an early member

(01:09:23):
of George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party. He was a
leading member of the short lived National States Rights Party,
and in his clan days, he was a very close
friend of David Duke. I've left myself a note to
come back to James k Warner. I think there's some
real weird little guy stuff going on here, and I

(01:09:45):
do have a quick correction to make, as much as
it pains me, I just realized I misspoke in the
last episode where I mentioned James k Warner. I called
him Robert k Warner. Careless. Honestly, I should have caught that.
But to be honest with you, I'm recording this at
one in the morning, and this is early by my

(01:10:06):
usual standards. I'm always a little down to the wire.
But I think what happened there was just a slight
mix up because in my defense, James Conrad Warner did
have a brother named Robert L. Warner, and he did
use his brother's name on the deeds to some of
the church property. But it turns out that Monica's connection

(01:10:28):
to Robert K. Warner may be the answer to a
question that's been bothering me for weeks. How on earth
did a woman in South Africa manage to join the
Ku Klux Klan? If you recall the story in the
episode two weeks ago, Monica Hugget was arrested in nineteen

(01:10:49):
eighty one in connection with a series of pro apartheid
bombings by a group that called itself the Vid Commando,
and after her arrest, she agreed to testify against the
Italian fascists that she'd helped carry out those bombings. During
the trial, she said she was a member of the
American Ku Klux Klan, and she told the authorities that

(01:11:11):
the books they'd used as a guide for making those
bombs had been sent to her by her American clan contacts,
So she wasn't just a member of a Ku Klux
Klan style group that operated independently in South Africa. She's
saying that she has active contact with the clan in
the United States, because there is a big difference there.

(01:11:36):
There have been groups in other countries that have adopted
the esthetic and the ideology of the clan without necessarily
maintaining meaningful contact with the group they're modeling themselves after.
In other examples, what looks like a foreign iteration of
the clan is actually just an American who happens to
be living overseas. In the nineteen eighties, there was an

(01:11:58):
American serviceman station in Germany who claimed that he was
leading an active clan group in Bavaria. And in the
Denis Mahon story, we saw an American klansman who traveled
internationally trying to spark an interest in American clan aesthetics
and ideology, but with relatively little success. So what Monica's

(01:12:18):
talking about here is something a little different, and I
was stumped, truly. As we'll get to later on in
the story, I can absolutely connect Monica huggets Stone to
the American Ku Klux Klan by the nineteen nineties. I've
got the Federal election commissioned filings to prove that that's easy.

(01:12:41):
But I still have no answers when it comes to
the question of klansmen in South Africa in the late
nineteen seventies, not in any concrete way, but I do
have a theory. One of the sources I've relied on
heavily throughout this series is a nineteen ninety nine thesis

(01:13:03):
by Mita Visser on the white fascist movements in South
Africa in the twentieth century, and she sort of hints
at this idea. She writes, quote, the activities of the
clan in South Africa are obscure. Although the police had
no concrete evidence that the movement was active in South Africa,

(01:13:24):
there were claims in the press in the late seventies
that branch has existed in the country, And so in
Visser's thesis she gives a couple of examples that are
definitely evidence of that esthetic copycat behavior I'm talking about. So,
when the Vit Commando took credit for those bombings in
nineteen eighty, the letters they sent to the press had

(01:13:47):
a symbol in the letter head that was almost identical
to the logo used by American clan groups. And in
nineteen ninety, when two members of the Order of Death
went on trial for murder, our supporters packed the courtroom,
and they were all wearing little clan lapel pens, and
one of them even told a reporter the order is

(01:14:09):
long gone. It's the Ku Klux Klan now. In an
unrelated side note, just to wrap up a loose end
from the last episode, I can tell I've spent too
much time digging around for details I'm not gonna need
for this story when side characters start to look really familiar.

(01:14:30):
When I was reading that anecdote about the order of
death trial in nineteen ninety, I recognized the names of
the murderers. Cornelius Lottering and Fanny Goosen were two of
the ten members of the Africaner Resistance movement who were
arrested in the summer of nineteen ninety. So when they
scooped up Leonard Wienendahl and Horst Cleans, Lottering and Goosen

(01:14:52):
were in that bunch. And I mentioned in last week's
episode that I couldn't exactly tell what became of all
ten of those men, but two of them had escaped
from custody, and those two were Lauding and Guzen, so
I guess they found them again because they did get
convicted of murder. But back to the question of the clan.

(01:15:16):
I could have left it there, but I think you
probably know by now that I didn't, because if he
dig just a little bit deeper into the past. There
was a man in South Africa who called himself the
leader of the South African Ku Klux Klan in the
nineteen sixties and into the seventies. He died in the

(01:15:37):
late seventies. His name was Raymond Kirch Rudman, and by
the time he was trying to get a South African
clan going, he was already pretty old, and he was
decades into his career as a professional anti Semite with
impressive international connections. Aside from his clan activities, Rudman was

(01:16:00):
also the leader of an African or nationalist group called
the Boranasi, originally founded by Many Merits. Meretz's son, also
called many Merits, was a prominent figure in the Africaner
resistance movement. During the same time period as Monica Huggett
and Rudman also led a group called the Anglo Norman Union.

(01:16:22):
I can't find much information about the extent to which
that group actually operated in South Africa, like did it
actually have real members, But in nineteen sixty five. Rudman
did use the group to join the World Union of
National Socialists. That was an effort by George Lincoln Rockwell's

(01:16:43):
American Nazi Party and Colin Jordan, who was then the
head of the National Socialist movement in the United Kingdom,
to form I guess exactly what it sounds, a World
Union of Nazi groups. But when it comes to the Clan,
there's not much written, at least not that I was
able to find about the history of the clan in

(01:17:05):
South Africa. But everything that does exist has Ray Rudman's
name on it. Last year, doctor William Robert Phillips completed
his dissertation at Emory University, and I know, I know
that dissertation has the answers I'm looking for, but it
is currently embargoed and not available to read. But a

(01:17:29):
write up about his research tells me I'm on the
right track. He was researching anti Semitic bombings in the
United States during the Civil Rights era when he came
across one of the same sources I did. An old
mention of Ray Rudman trying to recruit for a clan
group in South Africa in the early nineteen sixties. Phillips

(01:17:52):
was able to secure grant funding to spend several weeks
in South Africa at the University of the Free State,
where Rudman's personal papers are held in a special collection. Again,
unfortunately for me, I can't read Phillips's research, but I
do have the finding aid for Rudman's papers, I can't
actually see what's written. The documents aren't digitized. A finding

(01:18:15):
aid is just an inventory listing the contents of various
boxes and folders, and I would love to get my
hands on some of those letters because listed in that
inventory are entries for correspondents between Ray Rudman and the
New Christian Crusade Church dated as early as the sixties

(01:18:36):
and seventies. There's also an entry listing correspondence between Ray
Rudman and the National States Rights Party dated from the
nineteen fifties. The inventory also lists more than forty books
in Rudman's collection that were published by James K Warner,
either through his Sons of Liberty Press or the New

(01:18:57):
Christian Crusade Church. A similar finding aid for the personal
papers of James k Warner, held by the University of
Wyoming also lists correspondence between James Warner and Ray Rudman,
and Warner's Nazi publishing outfit, the Sons of Liberty Press,
also published and sold English language versions of texts by

(01:19:19):
South African anti semi Johann Schumann an African inter nationalist
politician Yap Maree. So I can't tell you exactly how
Monica Huggett came to join the Ku Klux Klan, but
there is some really solid connective tissue here. It doesn't
feel as random now. So when she moved to the

(01:19:42):
United States, she was a close enough associate of James
K Warner that he put her in charge of his
new Christian Crusade church, and that has to have something
to do with the fact that archives show that he
was in active communication with the far right in South
Africa from his earliest days in the movement. It looks

(01:20:03):
like I have some more digging to do on the
subject of the Fascist International, because the number of connections
here is honestly pretty staggering to me. James K Warner
visited England in the seventies to speak at a meeting
of the League of Saint George. In nineteen eighty, our
Belgian Nazi Roger Spinewen was deported from the United States

(01:20:26):
while he was here visiting members of the National States
Rights Party and our South African Clansman Ray Rudman was
listed as the South African correspondent in issues of a
British fascist magazine in the nineteen seventies. All of these
guys are connected going back decades. But I've been promising

(01:20:50):
to get to this part of the story for weeks now,
the part where a handful of German mercenaries get into
a shootout with the South African police in March of
night eighteen ninety four. A few episodes ago, I told
you that one of the first places I found Monica
Hugget's name was in the South African Truth and Reconciliation

(01:21:10):
Commission's Final Report in Volume two. The portion of the
report that deals with quote the Commission of Gross Violations
of Human Rights, Chapter seven political violence in the Era
of Negotiations and Transition. Under the subheading links with international
right wing groups, the report reads. The first link between

(01:21:34):
ultra right terrorism and foreign agencies came to light in
nineteen eighty two when mister Fabiomiello, mister Massimo Bolo and
mister Eugenio's office all white foreign expatriots known as the
White Commando, were convicted of the nineteen seventy nine bombing
of the offices of prominent academic doctor Jan Lombard. Originally,
mister Kus ver Mullin and Miss Monica hugget were arrested

(01:21:55):
with them, but Huggitt turned state's witness and Vermullin was
released after a few days. Huggett's name was subsequently linked
to a shootout in March of nineteen ninety four between
the South African police and three German right wingers in
the Donkerhok area. One German right winger, mister Stephen Rays
was arrested, Mister Thomas Kuns was shot dead, and a third,
mister Horse Cleans, was later arrested. A fourth, mister Alexander Nydeleine,

(01:22:19):
was later charged in the Cullen and Magistrates Court for
illegal possession of a firearm. And I read that paragraph
before you've heard that bit, and at this point you
know some of the back story that paragraph is talking about.
Two weeks ago, we talked about the Vit Commando bombings
in nineteen eighty and we spent most of the last

(01:22:41):
episode talking about one of those men Horst Cleans. Before
that shootout in nineteen ninety four, Glen's had been involved
in a nineteen eighty nine attack on a United Nations
outpost in Namibia, killing a security guard and later murdering
a police constable when he and his accomplices escaped from custody.

(01:23:01):
And at some point I teased you a little bit
with a story about Alexander Nydline. He was the German
neo Nazi who swore allegiance to Donald Trump at a
fascist rally in Croatia in twenty seventeen. So we know

(01:23:34):
where Horst Clean's was in the early nineties. He was
in South Africa. But how did those other three men
actually get there? In nineteen ninety four, Alexander Nydline, Stephen
Rays and Thomas Koonst follow the same path as the
mercenaries recruited by Ronald Doyster. They deserted from the Convicts Battalion,

(01:23:58):
a paramilitary unit of the Crow Defense Council made up
of prisoners and foreign mercenaries, and they left Bosnia with
stolen weapons. Then, with the help of the League of
Saint George in England, they made their way down to
South Africa and just like Ronald Doyster. They were given
the name of a woman who would pick them up

(01:24:19):
from the airport, Monica Huggett. And here is another place
in my research for this story where I found a
very unlikely source of information that I just couldn't have

(01:24:43):
gotten anywhere else. Two weeks ago I had to give
my begrudging thanks to the Central Intelligence Agency after discovering
English translations of South African news stories in archived reports
from the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service. And this week
I haven't even more unsavory source, I think, though he

(01:25:06):
isn't around to hear it.

Speaker 4 (01:25:10):
This is the prosecution's appeal concerning Praliac in all other
respect respects affirms the sentence of twenty years of imprisonment,
subject to credit being given on the rule one oh
one see of the rules for the period he has
already spent. In attention, step Praliac. You may be seated,

(01:25:36):
wat your stop. Please please sit down.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
That audio might not sound familiar, but if you're extremely online,
you've seen mimified images of this moment used as a
reaction give a thousand times. I know it. I'm sure
you know the one I'm talking about. It's a white
haired old man in a suit, and he's drinking from
a small vial. That man is Slobodon Proliac. He died

(01:26:10):
by suicide in twenty seventeen, and the meme shows the
moment that he produced a small vial of cyanide from
his pocket after a judge at the Hague announced that
his sentence for war crimes would be upheld. I don't
speak Croatian, but news reports translated his last words in
that video as judges, Slobodon Proliac is not a war criminal.

(01:26:34):
With disdain, I reject your verdict, and then he knocks
back the vial of cyanide. We don't have to get
into the crimes against humanity that Slobodon Proliac was convicted
of by the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia. He
doesn't really factor in directly to our story at all,

(01:26:57):
but he did choose to defend himself without an attorney
during his war crimes trial, and as part of that effort,
he had a website dedicated to proving his innocence, and
that website is actually still online today. But the documents
that I found most useful in researching this story don't

(01:27:20):
appear to be accessible on the current version of the site.
So buried in this poorly organized series of files on
an archived version of this war criminal's website, I found
something terribly interesting. All of the existing reporting that I
could find about Alexander Ninelein, Stephen Rays, and Thomas Coonst

(01:27:44):
and their whereabouts in late nineteen ninety three seems to
rely on one of those documents, an arrest warrant signed
by their commanding officer, a war criminal named Maladin Nalatilic,
which I know I've not pronounced correctly, so we'll just
call him by his nickname Teuta. Everyone else did. When

(01:28:06):
those three German mercenaries deserted from Teuta's Ragtag Convicts Battalion
in the middle of December of nineteen ninety three, he
wrote a memo requesting arrest warrants. Translated, it reads, on
December sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, members of the Convicts Battalion
fled from Sierroki Brieg to an unknown destination after spending

(01:28:30):
three to four days in the unit after sealing weapons
and ammunition. The memo goes on to specify that, aside
from their names and the fact that they'd been briefly
affiliated with the unit. He had no additional information about
these three men. It's possible that a lot is lost

(01:28:51):
in translation here, but it kind of looks like he's
really going out of his way to distance himself from
these men, because he's very explicit that they were only
there for a few days and he doesn't know anything
about them. These guys are strangers to him, and I
guess there's no reason to doubt that. It's what every

(01:29:12):
write up about the incident says. And who knows, maybe
they got all the way there and they realized war
isn't very fun and they changed their minds. That makes
plenty of sense, right, But I think it would be
terribly naive to take a war criminal at his word
because he was lying in that chaotic document dump. On

(01:29:36):
Slowbodon Prolac's website, I found tuta's request for the issuance
of those arrest warrants, and I found the arrest warrants themselves,
and they were both signed by TUTA. I clicked through,
I don't know, maybe a hundred documents that mostly meant
absolutely nothing to me. I didn't really know what I

(01:29:58):
was looking for or what might even be there for.
Me to find. But I did find another document bearing
the signature of the commander of the Convex Battalion, and
this one was dated December second, nineteen ninety three, a
full two weeks before those men deserted. And it's a

(01:30:18):
list of soldiers under Tuta's command. And it appears to
have been written on a typewriter, and next to the
name of each soldier who had been paid for their
service in the month of November, he had drawn a
check mark in pencil. And there twenty four pages into
this list of names are Alexander Nydeline, Stephen Rays, and

(01:30:42):
Thomas Kunst. Nydeline and Coonst both have a check mark
next to their name, indicating that they'd been paid for
the month of November. Nydeline has over the years taken
issue with journalists who characterize him as a mercenary, often
arguing that he never actually got paid, so he can't

(01:31:02):
be called a mercenary. So this document at least offers
some possible rebuttal to that next to Stephen Ray's name,
though there isn't a check mark. Instead, there's a little
symbol that looks like it might be the letter D.
I think the soldiers who have died are the ones

(01:31:24):
with a little cross next to their name, and soldiers
who are in the hospital either have a B or
the word bolnika, which means hospital written out. And I
couldn't find any commonly used word for something like dead, deceased, killed, deserted, quit, captured,

(01:31:45):
any words like that. I couldn't find any that would
start with D in Croatian. But there are some words
and phrases related to the concept of author leave or
a permitted absence that do start with D in Croatian.

(01:32:08):
I'm just spitballing here. I have no idea what it
could mean. I don't know anything about running a mercenary
unit to do war crimes, and I don't speak Croatian.
I'm just guessing. But regardless of what these mysterious little
symbols mean, here's their commanding officer's signature on a document
listing their names two weeks before. He says they had

(01:32:32):
only just shown up in the last couple of days.
The obvious next question, then, is why would he lie
about how long they'd been with the unit. The short answer,

(01:32:52):
obviously is, I don't know. I don't think anybody knows.
But if I had to guess, I would say he
covering his ass. The convict's battalion was becoming increasingly unpopular
by late nineteen ninety three. It was again exactly what

(01:33:12):
it sounds like. It was made up of people who
had been in prison for violent crimes, as well as
foreign mercenaries who had volunteered to commit violent crimes, and
they were out of control. A letter sent to a
Croatian general, signed by another officer that same month, December
of nineteen ninety three, complained about Tuta's convicts running a muck.

(01:33:36):
They weren't just committing war crimes, but they were killing
and raping military and police personnel on their own side,
and their commanding officer was protecting them. So I can
only assume that he was trying to distance himself from
another embarrassing act of misconduct by this ragtag group of

(01:33:58):
foreign murderers when these three Germans deserted the unit with
a bunch of stolen guns and bombs. Other sources I
found writing about the actions of mercenaries in the Bosnian
War single out the German mercenaries in particular for their brutality.
Rob Kraut, a frequent contributor to soldier of Fortune magazine

(01:34:22):
wrote in his book Save the Last Bullet for Yourself
that the Germans he served with during the Bosnian War
had a terrible habit of cutting the ears off the
people they killed and keeping them as trophies. Austrian journalist
Christoph Santner co wrote egay yetst Ramboshpielen, which translates to

(01:34:44):
I'm going to play Rambo now with former mercenary. Wolfgang
Nighter writer and Nighter writer recounts seeing a German mercenary
hand a live grenade to a seven year old Muslim
boy in the Bosnian city of Mostar as a joke
of some sort. The mercenary told the boy it was

(01:35:05):
a toy, and the child was blown to pieces moments later.
There was no shortitch of violence in the Balkans in
the early nineties. There's plenty of blame to go around,
so it seems all the more remarkable that even in
this context, other actual war criminals, people sentenced to life

(01:35:28):
in prison at the Hague, people who were guns for hire,
they were looking at these German mercenaries and saying that's
a little bit too much. Now. I hesitate to build
a theory on the sand of speculation. But if that

(01:35:48):
little D next to Stephen Rays's name does happen to
mean that he was on leave in November, that does
line up with some other sort of hazy details about
this time period, because again we know that there was
an international effort to recruit mercenaries to travel to South Africa.

(01:36:12):
The two men from the beginning of this episode, Fox
Samang and Ralph Morajz were recruited by Ronald Douster personally
when he traveled to Bosnia in early nineteen ninety four,
and by all accounts, Nideline Rays and coonst were recruited
by Horsed Klens. But how because remember Horsed Glens had

(01:36:34):
been in South Africa for years at this point. He
escaped from custody in Namibia nineteen eighty nine and he
fled back to South Africa. He was arrested again in
the summer of nineteen ninety in connection with the Ordo
Boro folk bombings, and he didn't end up getting charged
with anything, but he spent a while in jail while
South African courts tried to figure out if they needed

(01:36:57):
to extradite him to Namibia. He was eventually probably in
late nineteen ninety two, released on bond depending a final
decision in the extradition matter, and then he disappeared. It
is possible, I guess that Glen's could have gone to
Bosnia at some point in nineteen ninety three, but I

(01:37:20):
don't think so, because there's a much more likely explanation.

Speaker 4 (01:37:27):
Vanley fastings on to Uss not Nice and Sennoseallella that
there's some of Ervvre Moule's striker game at Gimenem. Dolphin
said Oscar Wolf involvement.

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
That probably didn't mean anything to you. I speak a
little German, but that guy's accent was a little tricky
for me. I had to ask a friend who was
fluent for some help with this one. That's a clip
from a segment that aired on a German TV news program,
and the man speaking is an unname hotel guest. Unnamed,

(01:38:03):
probably because the hotel in question was a cedy establishment
in Hamburg's red light district, and the man is recalling
for a reporter from Derspiegel an incident that happened in
late October nineteen ninety three. Stephen Rays was thrown out
of the hotel after some kind of loud argument and

(01:38:25):
just Stephen Rays. According to researchers from Germany's anti fascist Infoblot,
Klen's was also spotted in Hamburg in October of nineteen
ninety three.

Speaker 7 (01:38:38):
And we know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:38):
Stephen Rays did go back to Bosnia after he got
kicked out of that CD motel because he deserted in December.
So what it looks like to me is that Rays
made contact with Klen's in Hamburg in October, and then
he went back to Bosnia and told his friends about
this exciting new opportunity. All they had to do was

(01:39:03):
steal a bunch of guns and find a way to
get to England. What we do know for certain is
that all three of those mercenaries left Bosnia on December sixteenth,
nineteen ninety three, and on December thirtieth, they robbed a
post office in the German city of Lubec, making off

(01:39:23):
with around eighty five hundred Deutsche marks. I don't entirely
know how to sort out how much money that is.
In nineteen ninety three, one US dollar was equal to
about one point six Deutsche marks, so that would make
it a little over five thousand dollars, But those are

(01:39:44):
nineteen ninety three dollars, So I guess you could best
understand the actual value of this money is around ten
thousand US dollars today. Don't email me about math. And
with cash in hand, they traveled from Germany to Ramsgate,
that little seaside town in England, where members of the

(01:40:05):
League of Saint George drove them to the airport, and
just like the mercenaries that would follow them two months later,
they were given a name Monica Huggit would pick them
up from the airport when they got to South Africa.
They arrived on tourist visas in January of nineteen ninety four,

(01:40:28):
and Monica was there as promised to pick them up.
She sorted other paperwork and work permits and their mercenary assignments,
passing them off to Horst Cleans. They were assigned as
armed guards at Radio Pretoria, an illegal radio station that
broadcast African nationalist propaganda, and they participated in military drills

(01:40:53):
led by Willem Ratta, a former Rhodesian military officer. Everything
seemed to be going according to plan until March fourteenth,
nineteen ninety four. By the time the next round of
mercenaries arrived a few days later, there was no one
there at the airport to greet them. Thomas Konst was dead,

(01:41:17):
and Alexander Nydelin, Horst Cleans, Stephen Rays, and Monica Huggett
had all been arrested. I really do hate to leave
you hanging again. I promise I'm not dragging this story
out on purpose to torment you. I was a little
preoccupied this past week, and I'll be entirely otherwise occupied

(01:41:39):
during the week you're hearing this. If you're listening to
this on the day it comes out, I am almost
certainly sitting in court right now. In October of last year,
I did a couple of episodes about Virginia's burning objects law.
There was a pair of episodes on Barry Black, the
Pennsylvania clansman who challenged Virginia's cross burning statute and eventually

(01:42:02):
won his case at the Supreme Court. And there was
a third episode about a man who broke the law
Virginia wrote to replace that original crossburning ban. In that episode,
I talked a bit about the Nazi torch march that
took place here in my hometown of Charlottesville, Virginia on
August eleventh, twenty seventeen. The episode was about Tyler Diykes,

(01:42:25):
but he was just one of about a dozen men
who've been charged with burning an object with the intent
to intimidate. That's the law that replaced the old crossburning statute. Well,
this week, another one of those men is taking his
case to trial. So I lost a little bit of
time this week reviewing the facts so I can be

(01:42:46):
prepared to sit through the trial. And I'm going to
lose the entire next week sitting on a wooden bench
taking notes by hand. I would love to promise you
the final chapter of Monica Hugget's story is going to
come next week, but if I'm being realistic, it'll be
something else. I've been planning to do, sort of a

(01:43:07):
Q and A episode, so it might be that you
can submit questions for that on the Weird Little Guy's subreddit.
Just please don't send them to meet anywhere else, Like
on any other social media platform, I'll just lose them.
So if you have a question, please post it to
the subreddit, or if you absolutely for some reason cannot

(01:43:29):
do that, you can email it to me, but nowhere
else please, And depending on how things go during the trial,
I might have a minisode about the defendant Basilio's pistols.
If you're curious about Pistolis, I'll include a link in
the show notes to the pro publica article about his
discharge from the Marines after he was revealed to be

(01:43:51):
a member of Adam Laffin. So thank you for bearing
with me as I tell the story of Monica Stone
in these Strange Little Bunks. I've really been enjoying how
much digging this one has demanded of me. I just
need a little more time to read some very weird
racist prophecies before I'm ready to write the last chapter.

(01:44:23):
Weird Little Guys is a production of Cool Zone Media
and iHeartRadio. It's researched, written and recorded by me Molly Conger.
Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The
show is edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The
theme music was composed by Brad Dickert. You can email
me at Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com.

(01:44:44):
I will definitely read it, but I almost certainly will
not answer it. It's nothing personal. I don't answer any
of my emails. You can exchange conspiracy theories about the
show with other listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit,
just don't post anything that's going to make you one
of my weird Blue Guys

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